Handcheck rule in todays league

[TDMVPDPOY]

would it benefit todays defensive stoppers against volume scorers?

since todays defensive players have mastered the art of using their legs/body for better positioning and forcing the scorer to work for their points without the need to grab and shit....

reason why im saying this is because the perimeter players of the 90s handcheck era, lol jordan stoppers or volume scorer stoppers, how many of them perimeter clowns were actually really (exclude payton):
-defensive stoppers
-dpoy candidates
-appeared on any all defensive teams
-actually shut anyone down

+00 perimeter stoppers >>>90s bullshit handcheck players who played no fkn defense besides grabbing a player

therefor MJ would not avg more ppg in todays league then what he avg in his prime during handcheck era..

[lefty]

DK would average 65 ppg in today's NBA

[SuperCam]

DK would average 65 ppg in today's NBA

MJ never had to play in a league where zone defense was allowed. LBJ would average 40 a game with the illegal defenses rule.

[TDMVPDPOY]

DK would average 65 ppg in today's NBA

no he wouldnt

he played against bullshit defenders at his position....how many of those guys were actually dpoy candidates let alone made any all defensive teams during handcheck era? why not put them 90s players in todays league...they wont even be named dpoy candidate let alone all defensive teams...

the defensive stoppers +00 put them in handcheck era, even without using their hands to grab and shit, they still do a better job then those perimeter defenders

[TDMVPDPOY]

MJ never had to play in a league where zone defense was allowed. LBJ would average 40 a game with the illegal defenses rule.

90s perimeter players wont be able to keep up with his size and first step ...too big and too strong on the perimeter...

[SuperCam]

also CROFL at the idea that MJ didn't get superstar calls in the late 80s and 90s regarding phantom fouls anyways

[diego]

All I know is that in the 90s you didn't have Guards leading the league in fta, not even Jordan, there way you routinely have now. Between fta and 3pa skyrocketing for perimeter players in the current nba you'd think LeBron would score a lot more than mj, truth is he isn't close.

Also, lol at excluding Payton, and acting like no Guards made defensive teams. Who are these modern stoppers? If we exclude Leonard, where are these dpoy stoppers and who have they shut down?

[spurraider21]

something about enrique

[TDMVPDPOY]

Also, lol at excluding Payton, and acting like no Guards made defensive teams. Who are these modern stoppers? If we exclude Leonard, where are these dpoy stoppers and who have they shut down?

excluding payton cause he was a pg, im looking at clowns who actually defended dk and tried to s top him, in other words he played against bullshit competition perimeter players who played bs defense

[SuperCam]

All I know is that in the 90s you didn't have Guards leading the league in fta, not even Jordan, there way you routinely have now. Between fta and 3pa skyrocketing for perimeter players in the current nba you'd think LeBron would score a lot more than mj, truth is he isn't close.

Also, lol at excluding Payton, and acting like no Guards made defensive teams. Who are these modern stoppers? If we exclude Leonard, where are these dpoy stoppers and who have they shut down?

LeBron could easily outscore MJ any given season if he was ever interested in taking as many shots per game as MJ did.


Shit take not taking into account more possessions per game during MJ's day too :nope

[SuperCam]

King James three highest eFG% seasons, all in his prime, greater than any season MJ had :tu


Five seasons with higher ast% than MJ's best season :tu



hot take low information fans love those pace and usage biased stats though :lol

[ambchang]

excluding payton cause he was a pg, im looking at clowns who actually defended dk and tried to s top him, in other words he played against bullshit competition perimeter players who played bs defense

Payton defended Jordan.
Pippen defended Jordan everyday during practice, tough that they are on the same team.
Jordan couldn't defend himself. Tough as well.

Then there's Dumars, Moncrief, Cooper, Pressey, Eddie Jones, Doug Christie, Jason Kidd (also known as the guy who checked Lebron in the 11 playoffs when he was about 40 years old), Bobby Phils, McMillan, Sprewell, Rodman, Marjele, Alvin Robertson, Rodney McCray and Fat Lever.

Not to mention the game in the 90s was very much pack the paint because 3 point shooter wasn't really that prolific back in the day, and outside shooting big men were rare. So the chances of actually driving to the basket with a clean look wasn't that common.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Payton defended Jordan.
Pippen defended Jordan everyday during practice, tough that they are on the same team.
Jordan couldn't defend himself. Tough as well.

Then there's Dumars, Moncrief, Cooper, Pressey, Eddie Jones, Doug Christie, Jason Kidd (also known as the guy who checked Lebron in the 11 playoffs when he was about 40 years old), Bobby Phils, McMillan, Sprewell, Rodman, Marjele, Alvin Robertson, Rodney McCray and Fat Lever.

Not to mention the game in the 90s was very much pack the paint because 3 point shooter wasn't really that prolific back in the day, and outside shooting big men were rare. So the chances of actually driving to the basket with a clean look wasn't that common.

i think i shouldve mention man to man defense instead of help defense or funnel to big men defense...once again dk played against bs defenders

if u transfer those list of guys to today how would they fare?
how about todays players playin in t he 90s with handcheck when they dont need handcheck as shown today what they can actually do>>>90s bs, +00 players with handcheck>>>>>>90s perimeter players

[ambchang]

LeBron could easily outscore MJ any given season if he was ever interested in taking as many shots per game as MJ did.


Shit take not taking into account more possessions per game during MJ's day too :nope

Mid 90s to mid 00s had the slowest pace in the history of the league, so I am not exactly sure what you are referring to. The pace of the league has really picked up the last few years.


King James three highest eFG% seasons, all in his prime, greater than any season MJ had :tu


Five seasons with higher ast% than MJ's best season :tu



hot take low information fans love those pace and usage biased stats though :lol

Players shooting way more FTs than they should usually gets high TS%, not to mention the proliferation of 3 pt shooting in this era.

As for assists, they are different players, and Jordan is to score as much as possible. In fact, it's a little disturbing that despite the size difference, Lebron doesn't really have that many more rebounds than Jordan did.

Stats-wise, Lebron is way up there, and it is tough to say that he is not historically great, but his inability to lead absolutely stacked teams to the ring (and doing it only 2 out of 3 times) will forever stain his legacy, no matter how hard you try.

[ambchang]

i think i shouldve mention man to man defense instead of help defense or funnel to big men defense...once again dk played against bs defenders

Didn't Jordan had to deal with big men defense back in the day? And players today, if transported back then would have to deal with that as well? Not entirely understanding your train of thought.


if u transfer those list of guys to today how would they fare?
how about todays players playin in t he 90s with handcheck when they dont need handcheck as shown today what they can actually do>>>90s bs, +00 players with handcheck>>>>>>90s perimeter players

Can't really say that. Many of the top perimeter defenders in the 00s were hold overs from the 90s. Bowen started in the late 90s, ditto Artest, Doug Christie, Jason Kidd, Kobe, Payton, Snow, etc ... all had their starts in the 90s, and they saw the transition from no hand check to hand check. The result is that the league where the last 15 scoring leaders were perimeter players.

Prior to that? Shaq did it. Prior to the introduction of hand-checking in the 99 season, and with the exception of Jordan, 6 of the 9 scoring champs were not perimeter players, the only exceptions were Nique (sort of a perimeter player, even though he had a large number of drives and post ups) and Gervin, who is really also sort of a perimeter player. The only guard to ever lead the league in scoring prior to Jordan was Maravich back in 76-77 (I consider Gervin a F). Since handchecking? Iverson, Kobe, Wade and Westbrook all won the scoring titles. TMac, Lebron, Carmelo and Durant, even though they are F, are mostly perimeter players. Not one single traditional big won a scoring title since Shaq did in 01

[SuperCam]

Mid 90s to mid 00s had the slowest pace in the history of the league, so I am not exactly sure what you are referring to. The pace of the league has really picked up the last few years.



Players shooting way more FTs than they should usually gets high TS%, not to mention the proliferation of 3 pt shooting in this era.

As for assists, they are different players, and Jordan is to score as much as possible. In fact, it's a little disturbing that despite the size difference, Lebron doesn't really have that many more rebounds than Jordan did.

Stats-wise, Lebron is way up there, and it is tough to say that he is not historically great, but his inability to lead absolutely stacked teams to the ring (and doing it only 2 out of 3 times) will forever stain his legacy, no matter how hard you try.


I used eFG% not TS%. Free throws don't matter in this comparison, though King James' best TS% years are better than MJ's. Point blank everything points towards King James only not scoring as much as Jordan, in an era with zone defenses, because he chooses to pass the ball more.

And Jordan's prime, because who gives a fuck about his time on the Wizards, was faster than today's league by 5+ possessions


Once again, taking tempo out of it, King James's three best rebounding seasons by trb% were better than MJ's, and his 7th best rebounding season was better than MJ's 2nd best. Another feather in King James' GOAT cap.


More 'ringz' faggot take in your post for me to ignore.


Imagine King James getting to play his entire career in the pre-thibodeau defense era. :wow



laimbeer at 245lbs = NBA 80s/90s enforcer :lol Even durbeta weighs more. :lmao

[Kidd K]

Ambchang is pretty much shutting this thread down imo.

Let's also not forget LeBron plays about 20-30 games a year against tanking teams who barely make an effort each night out in the Leastern Conference.

Plus where are all the legendary defensive centers who reject everyone and are hard to dunk on now? There's no one because contesting a driving guard at the rim, especially on a dunk attempt, is almost always punished with a foul call now. That's why I laugh when dipshits make such a big deal about "posterizes" now. Most of them are just people off to the side or moving out of the way to avoid an automatic foul call. In the 90's, you had to -actually- dunk over 7 footers who were actively trying to reject your dunks.

[SquawkinHawkBigCock]

Ambchang is pretty much shutting this thread down imo.

Let's also not forget LeBron plays about 20-30 games a year against tanking teams who barely make an effort each night out in the Leastern Conference.

Plus where are all the legendary defensive centers who reject everyone and are hard to dunk on now? There's no one because contesting a driving guard at the rim, especially on a dunk attempt, is almost always punished with a foul call now. That's why I laugh when dipshits make such a big deal about "posterizes" now. Most of them are just people off to the side or moving out of the way to avoid an automatic foul call. In the 90's, you had to -actually- dunk over 7 footers who were actively trying to reject your dunks.

[ambchang]

I used eFG% not TS%. Free throws don't matter in this comparison, though King James' best TS% years are better than MJ's. Point blank everything points towards King James only not scoring as much as Jordan, in an era with zone defenses, because he chooses to pass the ball more.

So Lebron shot more threes, great. You can pick out any player in today's game and compare him to any player in the 80s/90s and the results are the same. The league has changed the rules that favour outside shooting, cutting and passing. Not allow hand check is one, calling illegal screens tougher is the other, zone is the third, it's just the way the game has evolved. Jordan went from an iffy outside shooter to a respectable one late in his career.

To think that Jordan wouldn't be able to adapt to today's game is beyond laughable. He played something similar to that in NC.


And Jordan's prime, because who gives a fuck about his time on the Wizards, was faster than today's league by 5+ possessions

When was Jordan's prime?

14-15 had a pace of 93.9.
Sure in 89-90 the pace was 98.1, and Jordan averaged 33.6 ppg.
but in his last Bulls season, 97-98, the pace was 90.3, and Jordan still put up 28.7 points at the age of 34.

If you want to normalize everything, Jordan averaged 40.4 ppg and 7 assists per 100 possessions in his career for 54.4 points, Lebron 36.9 with 9.3 assists for 55.5 points, in a day of increased 3 point shooting and higher scoring efficiencies due to rule changes that benefit the offense. Not to mention this including Jordan's last few years with the Wizards. If you take out the Wizard years, those averages became 41.5 and 7.1 for 55.7 for Jordan's first 13 years, while the numbers for Lebron was his first 12 years.



Once again, taking tempo out of it, King James's three best rebounding seasons by trb% were better than MJ's, and his 7th best rebounding season was better than MJ's 2nd best. Another feather in King James' GOAT cap.

Of course Lebron gets more rebounds, he's a SF, sometimes playing PF.

On the other hand, Jordan have way more steals, about the same blks, and less turnovers.

I agree both are very comparable statistics wise, just that Lebron failed to really drag strong teammates to titles.



More 'ringz' faggot take in your post for me to ignore.

Not necessarily more rings, but it's more to do with Lebron's failure to win rings with Wade and Bosh in 11 that will forever stain his legacy. I actually found his work with the Cavs (1st stint) to be way more impressive. The Cavs have no business being in the finals, and Lebron in the 09 playoffs were historical. Which shows me that he actually plays his best with bad teammates, but tend to be less assertive than necessary with strong teammates. He learned to be more assertive the last couple of years with the Heat, but those are teams that is expected to win championships.


Imagine King James getting to play his entire career in the pre-thibodeau defense era. :wow

Teams adjusted, and teams are scoring more now than the mid/early 00s, pre-thibodeau defense era. Go figure.



laimbeer at 245lbs = NBA 80s/90s enforcer :lol Even durbeta weighs more. :lmao

Who are the enforcers in today's league? Oh wait, there are none! Because tough guys like Serge Ibaka (who weighs 220lbs) are too busy e-spatting with other NBA tough guys, and the league has pretty much banned everything that is remotely seen as rough.

BTW, Durant weighs 240.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

BTW, Durant weighs 240.

& benches half of that.

[Mark Celibate]

Jordan wouldn't average as many points in todays league as he actually did in the 90s, but instead most likely he would turn out to be a rich man's Iggy. It's very hard for a guard to be a volume scorer in today's league without solid 3pt shooting imho, meanwhile if you're a solid 3pt shooter you can easily get 30+ minutes per game and average 10+ points, and that's why there're so many "3 and D" wings in today's league tbh. Speed and 3 are the elements that matter the most in today's offensive game imho.

[ambchang]

Jordan wouldn't average as many points in todays league as he actually did in the 90s, but instead most likely he would turn out to be a rich man's Iggy. It's very hard for a guard to be a volume scorer in today's league without solid 3pt shooting imho, meanwhile if you're a solid 3pt shooter you can easily get 30+ minutes per game and average 10+ points, and that's why there're so many "3 and D" wings in today's league tbh. Speed and 3 are the elements that matter the most in today's offensive game imho.


Jordan wasn't solid in 3pt shooting because that wasn't the game in the 90s, but he still had a few seasons shooting above 35% (not including those two years of shortened 3 pt lines), not to mention ALWAYS shooting a decent clip in the playoffs when it matters (32%+ from 90 to 96 every single year, then another 30% in 98. 97 sucked, but it happens).

Then you compare him to a guy like Harden, who is as good a scoring SG as there is in today's game, and he shoots 37% from 3 (35.5% in the playoffs), and isn't particularly fast, and your entire argument crumbles.

What made Jordan so good was that he was extremely quick and athletic for other players to guard. Players of similar size 6'4" to 6'8" guys aren't quick enough to guard him, and smaller guys aren't big enough to guard him either, so he's a mismatch every time he steps on the court, similar to what Lebron James or Russell Westbrook are now, and both of those guys are averaging close to 30ppg.

Speaking of RW, he averaged 30.4% from 3 for his career, with a 30% last year when he had a career high in PPG. These are numbers that are similar or even slightly worse than Jordan numbers. He is quick and strong, uber athletic, which is similar to what Jordan is, but Jordan had more tools and is slightly larger, which would allow Jordan to make up that 2ppg relatively easily.

Wing players are dominating the 6 of the top 10 scorers last year are wing players, including the top 3, not to mention that none of the top 3 can be considered deadly from 3.

Same the year before, and you can even argue K.Love was more a perimeter oriented player than a low post one on offense, which would make it 7 out of 10.

Having a 3 is nice, because it opens up the game for you, but 3 pt shooters are even better used to space out the floor and allow driving lanes. A very good three point shooter shoots about 40% from there, with most shooting around 35%, that is equivalent to a 60% shot from 2. A layup or a dunk is way more than 60%, and has much less variance in expected results as well (0 vs. 2 points as opposed to 0 vs. 3 points). In other words, a layup will always be preferred over a 3.