a new Spurs are old article

[Brazil]

link

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/san-antonio-spurs-team-built-160012727.html

long story short Spurs have second oldest team in the league blabla Tim blabla Manu blabla Tony blabla West

we are doomed

[apalisoc_9]

Tim is 40, manu is 38 and tony is around 34 now but plays like a 55 year old.

Shitty writing. Tim was very productive in the last two months of the RS last season and he was barely getting any touches and was averaging around 12ppg. I don't think manu is going to experience a significant drop off. Parker hopefully accepts a 7 FGA per game kinda role and the spurs are golden.

[DBMethos]

Spurs are old. Water is wet. We need the fucking season to start already.

[TheGreatYacht]

Spurs are old. Warriors are soft. Clippers are conference finals virgins. Thunder won't stay healthy. Rockets won't get fouls in the playoffs. Grizzlies can't score. Pelicans suck. Jazz have Trey Burke. Mavs are a bunch of rejects. No one wants to play for the Suns. Blazers got cucked. Lakers won't go anywhere until Kobe retires. Who cares about the Nuggets. Kings have a bunch of snakes. Minnesota isn't aware they have a basketball team.

[BD24]

Would be interesting to see how many similar articles to this there is total. Gotta be over 200 at least. Probably far more tbh. Pundits have been saying the Spurs are too old since like 2007 lol.

[SAGirl]

Spurs are old. Warriors are soft. Clippers are conference finals virgins. Thunder won't stay healthy. Rockets won't get fouls in the playoffs. Grizzlies can't score. Pelicans suck. Jazz have Trey Burke. Mavs are a bunch of rejects. No one wants to play for the Suns. Blazers got cucked. Lakers won't go anywhere until Kobe retires. Who cares about the Nuggets. Kings have a bunch of snakes. Minnesota isn't aware they have a basketball team.

This was insanely hilarious!!!!!
So true!!!!
Cliches here we come!!!!!
:downspin::lol:lmao:rollin

[SuperCam]

spursfan takes:


last year :cry it's not fair golden state and clippers are faggots only reason we lost was cause of lots and lots of injures :cry


this year: :madrun another article calling the spurs old and injury prone how dare they media treating los spurs unfairly again :madrun



spursfan keep up the :downspin:

[DJR210]

:lol Why does it have to be a "brutal" injury?

[Dex]

Spurs have been "old" for half a decade now, and it still hasn't slowed them down. This is because Pop is the best in the league in managing minutes, even if it means losing a few extra games, or drawing the ire of "substantial sanctions" from the NBA.

A lot has been made about the Spurs supposed "loss of depth", but in my opinion, the only major piece missing is dat dude Beli. Joseph and Baynes are easily replaceable. That being said, the Spurs will easily be able to stretch the minutes even further with the new pieces they acquired or brought back. Kawhi and Danny are due for big minutes this season. Aldridge should be a sponge for minutes as long as he stays healthy. Then you've got a perfectly good, albeit slightly old, West coming off the bench who will be able to spell Tim or LMA if they are injured, resting, or in foul trouble. And that's not even dipping into the bench (Mills, McCallum, Simmons, Anderson...maybe Jimmer).

Hell, the Spurs bench (Mills, Ginobili, Anderson/Simmons, Diaw, West) could compete as a starting 5 in the East. That's bound to pay dividends.

TL;DR...the Spurs may be old, but they are better equipped to handle it than ever before. Just gotta stay healthy and have things clicking by April, tbh.

[Sean Cagney]

I had a friend call the Spurs old back in 03 to be honest, never gets old.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

If spurs are 2nd oldest who is the oldest?

[NameLess Scrub]

A lot has been made about the Spurs supposed "loss of depth", but in my opinion, the only major piece missing is dat dude Beli.

TL;DR...the Spurs may be old, but they are better equipped to handle it than ever before. Just gotta stay healthy and have things clicking by April, tbh.

A Center.. we don't have any except 40 y/o Timmy and an euro giant.

With that said, hope things are clicking and healthy by April too.

[Dex]

A Center.. we don't have any except 40 y/o Timmy and an euro giant.

With that said, hope things are clicking and healthy by April too.

Seems like its really the only gap on the roster, but I'm not too worried tbh. The new age NBA doesn't really requires having a big center like it used to...hell, even Baynes was used sparingly last season because he was often too big and slow to matchup. I fully expect Diaw and West will be able to hold down the paint off the bench, with Bonner getting spot minutes to stretch the floor, and Boban hopefully being ready when we need size against the Dwight Howards of the league.

[stnick2261]

I started a thread before about how taking the average age of a team isn't very accurate, but you should weigh each player's age to minutes played (ie. a really old player who doesn't play shouldn't count against the team). Here is the thread
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234582

[TD 21]

Seems like its really the only gap on the roster, but I'm not too worried tbh. The new age NBA doesn't really requires having a big center like it used to...hell, even Baynes was used sparingly last season because he was often too big and slow to matchup. I fully expect Diaw and West will be able to hold down the paint off the bench, with Bonner getting spot minutes to stretch the floor, and Boban hopefully being ready when we need size against the Dwight Howards of the league.

Fourth wing is the biggest gap because of the lack of a proven player or player who's an obvious fit.

The whole "you don't need a big center anymore" notion misses the point. You still need the attributes most often associated with them: rim protection and rebounding; especially defensive. Virtually every power forward or hybrid playing center today provides at least one of those two things.

Neither West nor Diaw do so well enough to credibly play the position. It's possible the firepower of the bench renders it mostly moot or Pop finagles the rotation so that they don't play a ton together (the downside would be limiting Duncan-Aldridge minutes together), but it's clearly a concern going in.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Fourth wing is the biggest gap because of the lack of a proven player or player who's an obvious fit.

The whole "you don't need a big center anymore" notion misses the point. You still need the attributes most often associated with them: rim protection and rebounding; especially defensive. Virtually every power forward or hybrid playing center today provides at least one of those two things.

Neither West nor Diaw do so well enough to credibly play the position. It's possible the firepower of the bench renders it mostly moot or Pop finagles the rotation so that they don't play a ton together (the downside would be limiting Duncan-Aldridge minutes together), but it's clearly a concern going in.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, you, I and very few others seem to think it's an issue. If I had a dollar for the "Diaw/West are centers argument, I would have several dollars.

[Harry Callahan]

Any team with LaMarcus Aldrige and Kawhi Leonard on the front line is on to something. The Spurs have that and a lot more. Last time I checked both of those players are in their prime.

[Biernutz]

The guy who wrote that story just did a cut and paste of all the old story's of the AARP Spurs.
The writer is just lazy to come up with a fresh story about the NBA. Just rehash...............

[Spurtacular]

Tim is 40, manu is 38 and tony is around 34 now but plays like a 55 year old.

Shitty writing. Tim was very productive in the last two months of the RS last season and he was barely getting any touches and was averaging around 12ppg. I don't think manu is going to experience a significant drop off. Parker hopefully accepts a 7 FGA per game kinda role and the spurs are golden.

Wow, that's 11X the age you post at.

[ceds]

We should be able to get away with the Diaw / West pairing defensively
NOR, HOU , SAC and maybe the Jazz are the only Western teams where we might be forced to keep one of TD or LMA on the court but I think our bench is going to come in and just blow teams out this year.

Tbh i cant wait to see the Diaw / West combo. The combination of shooting, defense, ball movement and smarts these bigs provide is going to be devastating and more than make up for any lack of rim protection. With Wests passing and range i expect an even better version of our 2014 bench - With Diaw / west / manu / mills the ball will fly around the court. Kawhi will have some run with those 4 if we need rebounding and if KA or Simmons can shoot 40% from 3 and drive and kick then lookout

[NameLess Scrub]

Fourth wing is the biggest gap because of the lack of a proven player or player who's an obvious fit.

The whole "you don't need a big center anymore" notion misses the point. You still need the attributes most often associated with them: rim protection and rebounding; especially defensive. Virtually every power forward or hybrid playing center today provides at least one of those two things.

Neither West nor Diaw do so well enough to credibly play the position. It's possible the firepower of the bench renders it mostly moot or Pop finagles the rotation so that they don't play a ton together (the downside would be limiting Duncan-Aldridge minutes together), but it's clearly a concern going in.

This.
The team looks great but is far from a guaranteed title

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fourth wing is the biggest gap because of the lack of a proven player or player who's an obvious fit.

The whole "you don't need a big center anymore" notion misses the point. You still need the attributes most often associated with them: rim protection and rebounding; especially defensive. Virtually every power forward or hybrid playing center today provides at least one of those two things.

Neither West nor Diaw do so well enough to credibly play the position. It's possible the firepower of the bench renders it mostly moot or Pop finagles the rotation so that they don't play a ton together (the downside would be limiting Duncan-Aldridge minutes together), but it's clearly a concern going in.

The Spurs play NBA teams and not oyur roster perfection ideal. Most teams do not have a starting center worth a shit. Valincuinius or whatever has name is makes $15m and he is a spare much less a dominant big. What backup 5 is going to give us issues? Ezeli or Adams? :lol Both teams like to go small.

Worst case is we play Bobo and West short minutes as the "Turd Towers" and that just assumes that Euroleagues top C gives us nothing. Those TT are better that what we had before mind you with Bonner involved with Bobo or Blair.

[TD 21]

The Spurs play NBA teams and not oyur roster perfection ideal. Most teams do not have a starting center worth a shit. Valincuinius or whatever has name is makes $15m and he is a spare much less a dominant big. What backup 5 is going to give us issues? Ezeli or Adams? :lol Both teams like to go small.

Worst case is we play Bobo and West short minutes as the "Turd Towers" and that just assumes that Euroleagues top C gives us nothing. Those TT are better that what we had before mind you with Bonner involved with Bobo or Blair.

:lol Typical cliche/vanilla take. Sure, center is not as top heavy as it was in the 90's, but only the Celtics and Mavs clearly lack a current legit starter or someone projected to become one.

Valanciunas has his limitations, but he's one of the better low post scorers/two way rebounders in the league. Forget the money and focus on percentage of cap. Once it explodes past $100M next season and his extension kicks in, they'll be paying him less than 15% of the cap.

The concern with West playing center isn't so much post defense as it is defensive rebounding/rim protection. Keep in mind, Duncan is only going to average roughly 28 mpg, which leaves plenty of minutes where West (and Aldridge) will have to defend starters, too.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:lol Typical cliche/vanilla take. Sure, center is not as top heavy as it was in the 90's, but only the Celtics and Mavs clearly lack a current legit starter or someone projected to become one.

Valanciunas has his limitations, but he's one of the better low post scorers/two way rebounders in the league. Forget the money and focus on percentage of cap. Once it explodes past $100M next season and his extension kicks in, they'll be paying him less than 15% of the cap.

The concern with West playing center isn't so much post defense as it is defensive rebounding/rim protection. Keep in mind, Duncan is only going to average roughly 28 mpg, which leaves plenty of minutes where West (and Aldridge) will have to defend starters, too.

Typical moving the goalpost dodge.

We were talking about 4th bigs. Now you are talking starters.

When West is in he will be dealing with the oppositions second string. You bring up starers. . .

Try and keep up and address reality.

[TD 21]

Typical moving the goalpost dodge.

We were talking about 4th bigs. Now you are talking starters.

When West is in he will be dealing with the oppositions second string. You bring up starers. . .

Try and keep up and address reality.

I was clearly talking about the fact that neither West nor Diaw defensive rebounds or protects the rim well enough to credibly play center.

[ElNono]

Dubs won it all last season with basically Bogut as their only center... and he didn't even play much in the Finals, IIRC...

Speights, Ezeli are both listed as Center for them... they're both undersized, and averaged a grand total of under 3 rebounds per game, and < 1 block per game.

Heck, both Boris and West rebounded substantially better than them last season...

They now added Jason Thompson, but I think it's more as insurance for Bogut's constant injury problems.

[Arcadian]

:lol These articles have been coming out for over 10 years now! That's pretty fucking ironic.

[Joseph Kony]

nigs have been saying the Spurs are old for a decade now :lol

[Joseph Kony]

:lol Typical cliche/vanilla take. Sure, center is not as top heavy as it was in the 90's, but only the Celtics and Mavs clearly lack a current legit starter or someone projected to become one.

Valanciunas has his limitations, but he's one of the better low post scorers/two way rebounders in the league. Forget the money and focus on percentage of cap. Once it explodes past $100M next season and his extension kicks in, they'll be paying him less than 15% of the cap.

The concern with West playing center isn't so much post defense as it is defensive rebounding/rim protection. Keep in mind, Duncan is only going to average roughly 28 mpg, which leaves plenty of minutes where West (and Aldridge) will have to defend starters, too.

I feel like we'll see West paired with Duncan/Aldridge more often than him being paired with Boris or B:lolnner. Aldridge is a good rebounder and Kawhi is an elite rebounding SF, I don't think this will be an issue. Plus players like Diaw/Green/West and even Mills are good at tipping the ball out to their teammates if they can't secure it

[kaji157]

I think last year we were in need of these articles.
Good thing they are coming back.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I was clearly talking about the fact that neither West nor Diaw defensive rebounds or protects the rim well enough to credibly play center.

They play against an opponent. They do not play against your imaginary ideal of what you want a C to be.

Name me the backup C that we need to worry about. Ezeli, Thompson, Montiejunas, Wright, Smith, Adams, or Lyles? I'll take West and Bobo over that trash. Marjanovic has a decent shot then better than most of them.

[Chinook]

Really not that concerned with the lack of a backup five. If Anderson gets the final rotation spot, the rebounding will be fine, and smart defense can limit shots in the paint even without a rim-protector.

[TD 21]

Dubs won it all last season with basically Bogut as their only center... and he didn't even play much in the Finals, IIRC...

Speights, Ezeli are both listed as Center for them... they're both undersized, and averaged a grand total of under 3 rebounds per game, and < 1 block per game.

Heck, both Boris and West rebounded substantially better than them last season...

They now added Jason Thompson, but I think it's more as insurance for Bogut's constant injury problems.

Bogut didn't play a major role in the Finals, but he did overall.

Ezeli is clearly a legit center, both in size (6-11 265) and game.

Rebounds per game is largely irrelevant, since it's highly circumstantial. Percentage is far more telling . . .

Last season - career: Ezeli: 16.6 - 15.8, Speights: 14.5 - 15.6, Diaw: 9.4 - 10, West: 13.1 - 13.1.


I feel like we'll see West paired with Duncan/Aldridge more often than him being paired with Boris or B:lolnner. Aldridge is a good rebounder and Kawhi is an elite rebounding SF, I don't think this will be an issue. Plus players like Diaw/Green/West and even Mills are good at tipping the ball out to their teammates if they can't secure it

It could eventually come to that against elite teams and in the playoffs, but it would be easier rotation wise if it didn't.


They play against an opponent. They do not play against your imaginary ideal of what you want a C to be.

Name me the backup C that we need to worry about. Ezeli, Thompson, Montiejunas, Wright, Smith, Adams, or Lyles? I'll take West and Bobo over that trash. Marjanovic has a decent shot then better than most of them.

:lol Defensive rebounding/protecting the rim are the primary jobs of any center.

Once again, you display a blatant lack of reading comprehension. With the exception of Motiejunas (who, for the record, will split minutes at power forward with Jones; Capela will be their primary backup center and Favors/Pleiss will be the Jazz'), it's not about post defense.

[dweaver99027]

Look, to call a spade a spade, key players being old is a wildcard when predicting for next year. It's not impossible that one or more of Tim, Manu, Boris, West fall off a cliff next season. I wouldn't bet on it, but it's more probable for one of them to face a dramatic decline than, say, Klay Thompson, Blake Griffin, Westbrook or Harden. Just the way of things.

[ElNono]

Bogut didn't play a major role in the Finals, but he did overall.

Ezeli is clearly a legit center, both in size (6-11 265) and game.

Rebounds per game is largely irrelevant, since it's highly circumstantial. Percentage is far more telling . . .

Last season - career: Ezeli: 16.6 - 15.8, Speights: 14.5 - 15.6, Diaw: 9.4 - 10, West: 13.1 - 13.1.

It's not really circumstantial. Really good rebounders do happen to average way more rebounds per game than shitty rebounders, especially when the sample size is 82+ games. It's true that minutes do matter, and that's why there's "per 36" stats. Under those, Ezeli does look better, but the fact is Kerr could barely play him. Everybody and their mother are playing small these days.

But even taking you at your word, you're saying "legit center" Ezeli, who barely broke the 10mpg mark last season despite that team having ample garbage time (and after starting over 40 games when the preacher was the coach), barely rebounds at a higher rate than "not legit center" David West? Heck, both Ayres and Baynes averaged over 20 DRB% last season for us.

This really goes to what I'm saying. Either West can be passable on that role against 2nd tier opponents or the Dubs really didn't need a legit 2nd center (which would make the Thompson signing make sense, as they don't really have a passable backup to Bogut).

[ElNono]

Plus we did get a 2nd tier backup center... did we give up on that Euro guy yet? :lol

[TD 21]

It's not really circumstantial. Really good rebounders do happen to average way more rebounds per game than shitty rebounders, especially when the sample size is 82+ games. It's true that minutes do matter, and that's why there's "per 36" stats. Under those, Ezeli does look better, but the fact is Kerr could barely play him. Everybody and their mother are playing small these days.

But even taking you at your word, you're saying "legit center" Ezeli, who barely broke the 10mpg mark last season despite that team having ample garbage time (and after starting over 40 games when the preacher was the coach), barely rebounds at a higher rate than "not legit center" David West? Heck, both Ayres and Baynes averaged over 20 DRB% last season for us.

This really goes to what I'm saying. Either West can be passable on that role against 2nd tier opponents or the Dubs really didn't need a legit 2nd center (which would make the Thompson signing make sense, as they don't really have a passable backup to Bogut).

With the odd exception, even the worst rebounding bigs are going to average a decent amount if given enough minutes. That's why average is largely circumstantial and irrelevant.

Ezeli was injured early in the season and with Speights shooting out of his mind and the team rolling, there wasn't really any minutes available. But as the season wore on, his role expanded. He may be a similar defensive rebounder to West, but he's a significantly better offensive one and rim protector. He's also a more than passable backup, which is why there has been speculation that he's in line to receive a 4/$32-40M contract.

I'm not criticizing the West signing, I'm just saying, it's not as hand in glove as it's been trumpeted as being. The fact that the league plays smaller now doesn't mean West can credibly play center; not because of his lack of size, but because his game isn't suited for it.

[ElNono]

With the odd exception, even the worst rebounding bigs are going to average a decent amount if given enough minutes. That's why average is largely circumstantial and irrelevant.

Ezeli was injured early in the season and with Speights shooting out of his mind and the team rolling, there wasn't really any minutes available. But as the season wore on, his role expanded. He may be a similar defensive rebounder to West, but he's a significantly better offensive one and rim protector. He's also a more than passable backup, which is why there has been speculation that he's in line to receive a 4/$32-40M contract.

I'm not criticizing the West signing, I'm just saying, it's not as hand in glove as it's been trumpeted as being. The fact that the league plays smaller now doesn't mean West can credibly play center; not because of his lack of size, but because his game isn't suited for it.

Plus West fell on our laps... I don't think even the Spurs thought he would do what he did.

I think we're gonna give Eurostiff a good look in the 1st half of the season, and if that doesn't work out, there's time to make a move mid-season to shore that position up if needed.

[Budkin]

spursfan takes:


last year :cry it's not fair golden state and clippers are faggots only reason we lost was cause of lots and lots of injures :cry

this year: :madrun another article calling the spurs old and injury prone how dare they media treating los spurs unfairly again :madrun



spursfan keep up the :downspin:

Charlotte :lol

[NameLess Scrub]

Plus West fell on our laps... I don't think even the Spurs thought he would do what he did.

I think we're gonna give Eurostiff a good look in the 1st half of the season, and if that doesn't work out, there's time to make a move mid-season to shore that position up if needed.

We'll see about NameLess Eurostiff.. in any case, I feel he's oversized :lol

We also should not underestimate the impact of a mismatch in the players perceived as Scrubs.. they might have career nights

[Horse]

spursfan takes:


last year :cry it's not fair golden state and clippers are faggots only reason we lost was cause of lots and lots of injures

this year: :madrun another article calling the spurs old and injury prone how dare they media treating los spurs unfairly again :madrun



spursfan keep up the :downspin:

I've been wondering are you seriously a bobcats fan talking shit about the Spurs?

[ElNono]

We'll see about NameLess Eurostiff.. in any case, I feel he's oversized :lol

We also should not underestimate the impact of a mismatch in the players perceived as Scrubs.. they might have career nights

Can't really say I've seen much of him, tbh.... I just rather go into the season with low expectations and hopefully he'll surprise us...

[TD 21]

Plus West fell on our laps... I don't think even the Spurs thought he would do what he did.

I think we're gonna give Eurostiff a good look in the 1st half of the season, and if that doesn't work out, there's time to make a move mid-season to shore that position up if needed.

No question, for a fourth big making the minimum, they couldn't have possibly done better and culture wise he'll be a great fit.

I don't think they'll make a move for a center or that Marjanovic will be given a look, outside of garbage time, or an injury/game off to a rotation big. Still, within' that, they'll see enough to determine whether he's an NBA player or not and whether it's worthwhile to invest in him going forward.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Bogut didn't play a major role in the Finals, but he did overall.

Ezeli is clearly a legit center, both in size (6-11 265) and game.

Rebounds per game is largely irrelevant, since it's highly circumstantial. Percentage is far more telling . . .

Last season - career: Ezeli: 16.6 - 15.8, Speights: 14.5 - 15.6, Diaw: 9.4 - 10, West: 13.1 - 13.1.



It could eventually come to that against elite teams and in the playoffs, but it would be easier rotation wise if it didn't.



:lol Defensive rebounding/protecting the rim are the primary jobs of any center.

Once again, you display a blatant lack of reading comprehension. With the exception of Motiejunas (who, for the record, will split minutes at power forward with Jones; Capela will be their primary backup center and Favors/Pleiss will be the Jazz'), it's not about post defense.

I never said anything about post defense, chachi. When I said they play against opponent, I meant they only have to do better than an opponent and not meet your idealizations of how things should work. Please name me all the wonderful above the rim shot blockers that are riding the NBA pine. And post defense most certainly will play a role with as much as Pop plays his starters.

West can log respectable minutes against guys like Griffin and Green coming off the bench. David West is a very good defensive rebounder. He is also smart and is quick to cut off penetration and cover ground on the pnr. Defensively both he and Aldridge are similar although Aldridge has better size. Bobo is also very good in space and vs pnr. We also have a new C project.

This is not Bonner and Blair we are talking about here.

[SuperCam]

Charlotte :lol

must of touched a nerve with the truth exposing post, two ad homs already :tu

[TD 21]

I never said anything about post defense, chachi. When I said they play against opponent, I meant they only have to do better than an opponent and not meet your idealizations of how things should work. Please name me all the wonderful above the rim shot blockers that are riding the NBA pine. And post defense most certainly will play a role with as much as Pop plays his starters.

West can log respectable minutes against guys like Griffin and Green coming off the bench. David West is a very good defensive rebounder. He is also smart and is quick to cut off penetration and cover ground on the pnr. Defensively both he and Aldridge are similar although Aldridge has better size. Bobo is also very good in space and vs pnr. We also have a new C project.

This is not Bonner and Blair we are talking about here.

You quoted me and then have the audacity to tell me what I was talking about, when it's clear you still don't know. Unbelievable.

The fact that West's game isn't suited for playing center (and no, he's not a a "very good defensive rebounder") doesn't change, whether it's against Cousins or Ezeli; it has nothing to do with low post defense.

I'll say it in bold this time: I'm not suggesting that it wasn't a good signing or that it'll be fatal, but there's clearly reason to believe it could be cause for concern.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You quoted me and then have the audacity to tell me what I was talking about, when it's clear you still don't know. Unbelievable.

The fact that West's game isn't suited for playing center (and no, he's not a a "very good defensive rebounder") doesn't change, whether it's against Cousins or Ezeli; it has nothing to do with low post defense.

I'll say it in bold this time: I'm not suggesting that it wasn't a good signing or that it'll be fatal, but there's clearly reason to believe it could be cause for concern.

So you have nothing to say. That's nice. You don't seem to understand what I am saying. Specifically reread:


I meant they only have to do better than an opponent and not meet your idealizations of how things should work.

So against Cousins post defense doesn't matter? Okey-dokey.

[TD 21]

So you have nothing to say. That's nice. You don't seem to understand what I am saying. Specifically reread:



So against Cousins post defense doesn't matter? Okey-dokey.

What's so difficult about this to understand?

You're obsession about individual post defense (which I've repeatedly said is no more than a minor concern), when I'm talking about rim protection and defensive rebounding. They're two completely different things.