Kawhi is a role player, cmon admit it

[K...]

K....., can a dpoy be a role player? They usually are. But isn't the leagues best 2 way player a true star?

It's debatable at best. Kawhi has some great highlights and he's had a stretch of games where he looked like a star. But then he takes a back seat. Part of it is the richness of this team. But it's also a reminder that Kawhi is a work in progress. Last year he sat out 1/3 of the season. DPOY pretty much means he's the leagues best defender. But on offense? He's solid, but the offense doesn't depend on him. He's at best a third option and with LMA and west he's not going to be a first option. And that's ok.


I call him a role player to troll, of course. But it's also an admission that his game is not ready for prime time night in and night out. That is what a star is. People are giving kawhi the benefit of the doubt. Which is fine but you lunatics are projecting things on him that are way out of left field.


He should be an all star this year. It's a popularity thing but i think he has a good chance to be voted in and will be guaranteed to be a coach pick. That may be the nail on the role player coffin. Winning a series in the playoffs as the first option would also do the trick.


Until then, he's the best player on team of role players. Clearly the most important spur (pending LMA) and the hardest to replace, but not a true star yet. Unless you think there is this magic middle category between star and role player i think it's safe to call him a role player.

[spurraider21]

such is like on spurstalk

-aarony

[dabom]

Just called Duncan a role player. Lmao.

[timtonymanu]

OP is a.....

[K...]

Duncan pretty much is a role player at this point. I mean he's won innumerable series in the past, and looked good the last few years but he won't win every playoff matchup and could be shut down and exploited if a team wanted to. That fact Dugan is so good is a function of wingstop and a motion based offense that gets him easy looks.

There was no star on this team for the last two years. Our last true star was parker in 2013. It's been a committee approach since.

[K...]

tony parker is a roleplayer

Exactly. Pg is a role.

[dabom]

The fact that sixty percent of our starting line up could not get more than one good game and pop having one of the worst

[dabom]

Series of all time and we got a bogus foul on tim and the refs started the timer early and pop not running

[dabom]

Another play and to the last shot game 7 does not mAke Tim a fucking role player.

[K...]

Another play and to the last shot game 7 does not mAke Tim a fucking role player.

Mainstream big three fan here. Seriously I know we almost best the clippers and he and kawhi were the best players in that series. But Duncan didn't dominate his matchup. The dude can barely move! Tiago was just as important as Tim last year. Is he a star? No.

I'm not judging players on their career or their potential. I'm just starting my criterion is that a star dominates a meaningful stretch of games.

Kawhi came close in the reg season once he recovered. Then he went cold against the clipper. Chris Paul is a star. He willed his team to win (and then he shit the bed after gassing out Houston)

[dabom]

I'm on my phone. I ain't going to bother. Duncan has lost many series in his prime as the top dog. Was he a role player because of that?

[dabom]

The actual role players needed to step up. Porker cost us the series btw. Fucking cancer tbh. Have you checked duncan's numbers ye t faggot.?

[TheGreatYacht]

Yes, Kawhi is a role player

[K...]

"Was Duncan a role player....."

No, clearly not. He was the best player more often than not back then. He was unquestionably the alpha of the team. Really a bad example to compare and all time top ten talent with a young and upcoming player who has yet to win anything meaningful as a primary option.

If someone wants to disagree with me intelligently tell me why Leonard is a star? Is it a media award like dpoy or finals mvp?

Is it advanced stats?

Two ways to be star imo.... Lead a team (including bad teams) or show you can meaningfully dominate.

Durant isn't his team's leader but he obv could be.

Gordan Hayward is a team star, but he'd a role player on a good team.

Maybe kawhi could lead a team better than the league's bottom rung stars. But he hasn't gotten the chance yet and hasn't asserted himself as the team alpha here either. He's talented enough, but he may not have the mental makeup to be a true leader. Many people have suggested that Leonard's ceiling is a pippen. Others have given the benefit of the doubt. Which is fine but it's speculation not fact

[TheGreatYacht]

Thankfully we have the Big 4. Duncan, LMAlpha, Parker, and Manu

[YGWHI]

It's debatable at best....He's at best third option with LMA and West...Chris Paul is a star. He willed his team to win

"Kawhi is a role player, he's 3rd option because West now...and Paul is a star" because after years of criticism he has redeemed himself in the first round last playoffs, but not Kawhi.

Stupid but also funny


If the criteria to call star a player is who redeemed himself in playoffs...Kawhi is a true star since he redeemed himself winning the FMVP in 2014 after missed one FT in 2013...

But for K..., everyone but Kawhi

[dabom]

God I hate player fans.

[Blackjack]

OP is a.....

Israel Gutierrez?

[Spurtacular]

Even though I argue against all these player fans' BS, I'm pretty high on KL. Those saying he isn't an all star level player are either missing something or have an agenda. Yes, some of the criticisms are valid; and I've leveled them to combat the player fans. But calling KL a role player? Come on, now.

[Spurtacular]

God I hate player fans.

You certainly hate yourself.

[dabom]

Go back to the jemmer thread. Srs.

[SPURt]

Kawhi's not getting paid like a role player. He was getting paid less then Matt Barnes last year. He was making almost 10x less than Lebron. I don't care what he did last year, there should be expectations for him to make a leap. Tim can't hand the keys to the car to anyone, someone needs to take it.

[Spurtacular]

Gordan Hayward is a team star, but he'd a role player on a good team.


Maybe in the stricter sense of the word (increasingly popular sense of the word too); but in years past, starters / borderline all-stars weren't called role players. This is why I think it's stupid to call KL a role player. When I think role player I think of ML Carr or something like that.

[YGWHI]

I'm not judging players on their career or their potential. I'm just starting my criterion is that a star dominates a meaningful stretch of games.

Kawhi came close in the reg season once he recovered. Then he went cold against the clipper. Chris Paul is a star. He willed his team to win (and then he shit the bed after gassing out Houston)

Basically Kawhi's a role player for only two/three bad games in playoffs?

Before last season, Paul was a role player too because couldn't lead his team to past the second round since...?

Well, that's why nobody thinks you're trolling, you really think what you say, and it just shows your poor judge of talent.

[Aztecfan03]

God I hate player fans.

WHy all the self-hating, dabom?

[RayTdropout]

So is your mom

[YGWHI]

Even though I argue against all these player fans' BS, I'm pretty high on KL. Those saying he isn't an all star level player are either missing something or have an agenda. Yes, some of the criticisms are valid; and I've leveled them to combat the player fans. But calling KL a role player? Come on, now.

Don't worry we can make a list of K....horrendous takes.

"Durant isn't Thunder leader" "Kawhi's a role player"...we're used to read his stupid posts.

[dabom]

WHy all the self-hating, dabom? it's my nature.

[YGWHI]

If someone wants to disagree with me intelligently tell me why Leonard is a star? Is it a media award like dpoy or finals mvp?

Is it advanced stats?

"He was 23rd in Offensive RPM last year, and 6th in Defensive RPM. If you weight the metrics equally then he was the 5th best player last year"

Of couse...role players in the league have these horrible advanced stats.

[K...]

"He was 23rd in Offensive RPM last year, and 6th in Defensive RPM. If you weight the metrics equally then he was the 5th best player last year"

Of course...role players in the league have these horrible advanced stats.

thats the spirit! advanced stats is the best case for him.

I don't count the 2014 miami series as a big leonard win. Diaw, mills, gino, everybody was on fire. What was hardly conclusive. It was pretty good but he did not follow up nor did he lead the whole playoffs. Duncan was the playoffs MVP, Diaw was second. Splitter and kawhi are neck and neck.

See for me the issue is, is kawhi a systems player? His defense would translate to any other team but on a lesser team would he gas out on the defensive end? are his great stats a product of having a great defensive two guard next to him? Can he play a full season?


Really this is a debate about the threshold of stardom. I think everyone in the nba world has Kawhi penciled in a star. But exactly what was the tipping point. I mean, i admitted all my Kawhi criticism is mainly trolling but i still want to find out why poeple think he's jordan or feel so emotional about having to argue about kawhi's role.


But if Kawhi is a star mainly for defense, then were guys like rodman, the matrix, and tyson chandler stars for their impact?

[YGWHI]

is kawhi a systems player?...But if Kawhi is a star mainly for defense

Who said he's a star only because his defense? And obviously I wouldn't call system-player a guy who scored 45% of his points on isos plays.


i admitted all my Kawhi criticism is mainly trolling
You are not trolling, just say that to hide your bad takes.

[AZK619]

tony parker is a roleplayer

[random21]

Israel Gutierrez?

Lol.....

[SpursIndonesia]

Kawhi is a superstar in the making, but not quite there yet as a complete package. He should be an all star this year, making him at the same level of LMAlpha currently. You can call him a super elite role player (who is ranked top 10 NBA this year by media), it's all in semantic.

[DarrinS]

Yes, KL is a role player. Thing is, he can play a LOT of roles. That's why he's so valuable.

[maverick1948]

How would this discussion be going if it was Kawhi Leonard of the Los Angeles Lakers? I believe he would be the greatest thing to come along since Cubby. He would be called the next great player of the NBA. Kobe is a role player now. He is better at sitting behind the bench and whining.

How hard is it to give credit where it is due? I know if someone does something good and he is not a Faker, then you make up SH-!T about him.

[Buddy Mignon]

Kawhi is a superstar in the making, but not quite there yet as a complete package. He should be an all star this year, making him at the same level of LMAlpha currently. You can call him a super elite role player (who is ranked top 10 NBA this year by media), it's all in semantic.


No he is not!!! He's a role player that thrives in the Spurs system. Remove him from that system and he's toast.

[313]

PARKER IS A ROLE PLAYER TOO,HE NEVER PROOF HIMSELF HE CAN LED A TEAM,PLUS HE IS A SELFISH PLAYER,LIKE TO PLAYS HERO'S BALL AND LACK OF CONSISTENT AND LEADERSHIP,ALWAYS GET SHUT DOWN IN PLAYOFFS

http://scd.france24.com/en/files/imagecache/france24_ct_api_bigger_169/article/image/Tony%20parker.jpg

http://alamocitytimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Tony-Finals-MVP.jpg

[313]

If it wasn't for Tony we wouldn't have Boris and if not for Boris, we wouldn't have, 5

Fkin unappreciative wankers

[DMC]

Kawhi isn't a role player because there's simply no role for him to play. He doesn't draw the defense out of the paint, solely. He doesn't attack the rim, solely. He doesn't spot up in the corner, solely. He doesn't hide on offense and beast on defense, solely. He doesn't fill in for anyone, solely. He doesn't do any of that. He's been a wanderer, and the other team hasn't known what his role is either. He took what he wanted when he was told he could, and it worked because he was an unknown. Now he's not an unknown, so he's going to draw the best defenders, which role players typically don't do. He's going to guard the best player on the other team, which role players typically don't couple with drawing a double team on offense.

He's not a role player. Tim Duncan is more of a role player these days than is Kawhi Leonard, and Tim has said so himself.

[Clipper Nation]

OP is a peter-puffer.

[Arcadian]

What a novel and exciting topic.

...Not.

[Godbama]

http://i.imgur.com/pl0rQkC.jpg

[313]

OLYMPIC MEAN NOTHING..............HE CAN'T LEAD THE SPURS TO WINHE ,ALWAYS GET SHUT DOWN IN
PLAYOFFS,HE NEED DUNCAN TO LEAD HIM,2007 FMVP SHOULD BE DUNCAN,HE ROBBED DUNCAN'S FMVP # FACTS
AND BECAUSE HE PLAYS SELFFISH BALL,HE COST THE THE SPURS LOST IN 2012 IN WEST CONFERENCE,AND 2013 NBA FINALS
2012 the refs screwed us, and in 2013 manu screwed us.

[hater]

WHy all the self-hating, dabom?

:lmao

[hater]

I been saying it all along Kawhi is a superb 2nd banana. Saying he's anything more or anything less is equally stupid

[Diego20]

2012 the refs screwed us, and in 2013 manu screwed us.

Tony Parker fans in a nutshell.

:wakeup

[dabom]

Tony Parker fans in a nutshell.

:wakeup

It's not like tony parker shot 25% fg the last 2 games trying to steal fmvp from green/tim. Heroballin' :lmao

[TheGreatYacht]

Yup, he's a role player

[AztecSpur]

Lebron kryptonite...... How soon we forget

[tholdren]

KL played a huge role in Matt Barnes success in the playoffs.

[dabom]

KL played a huge role in Matt Barnes success in the playoffs.

7ppg and got cut. :lmao

[tholdren]

7ppg and got cut. :lmao
and he still made KL look bad

[YGWHI]

Lebron kryptonite...... How soon we forget
Who? No one forgets...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APGlNxSvODw

You can't think 2 or 3 haters/trolls posting here are representative of Spurs fans.

[YGWHI]

Lebron kryptonite...... How soon we forget

There have always been trolls and this is the way it has always been, they're going to hate on everything they see no matter what...

If you need an example of how it works, just read these two entirely different reactions to the same article about Kawhi ranked #10
When it comes to trolls (TGY, Super, K...)
http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252234&page=4&p=8184212#post8184212
Or fans
http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/9/3/9258939/kawhi-leonard-is-10th-on-sis-top-nba-players-list

[TheGreatYacht]

Player fans hijacking another good thread smdh

[K...]

It's not hate to say kawhi is a good but not great player.

Fwiw every off season I'm gonna produce a thread with some variation of the following

"Has Leonard peaked" and every year someone will have predicted sky high production from kawhi.


Some people are arguing kawhi>LMA as for team impact. Some advanced stats minded pro analysts would agree. Others would not. What's important is that there is a fair debate and no hurt feelings.


What I consider dumb is people trying to evaluate kawhi using highlights and lowlights.

From the clippers series to Miami, we have the min and max of Leonard. Great, but the question is can he contestantintly be the man on both o and d night in and night out or is he just an ensemble player who on occasion can take over..... Or someone who can take over more often than not. Only peak lebron, shaq, and a few others can dominate all the time everyone. What we are looking for here is some variation of more often than not and when it matters

[K...]

Lmao pounding the rock being an objective source.

Fwiw at worse I think kwi is 15-20 ranked player. If you forced me to name players better kawhi prob moves closer to 10.

We're arguing about a pretty narrow range here. But that si ranking was clearly projecting onto Leonard further development. I'm not projecting any further talent. Neither me or the article is wrong, both are opinion. I just think there's evidence Leonard might never be an alpha. If you want to describe him as a psuedo alpha go ahead but if he's not an alpha you could call him a role player.

[SPURt]

It's not hate to say kawhi is a good but not great player.

Fwiw every off season I'm gonna produce a thread with some variation of the following

"Has Leonard peaked" and every year someone will have predicted sky high production from kawhi.


Some people are arguing kawhi>LMA as for team impact. Some advanced stats minded pro analysts would agree. Others would not. What's important is that there is a fair debate and no hurt feelings.


What I consider dumb is people trying to evaluate kawhi using highlights and lowlights.

From the clippers series to Miami, we have the min and max of Leonard. Great, but the question is can he contestantintly be the man on both o and d night in and night out or is he just an ensemble player who on occasion can take over..... Or someone who can take over more often than not. Only peak lebron, shaq, and a few others can dominate all the time everyone. What we are looking for here is some variation of more often than not and when it matters

Good post. The interesting thing about fandom is perspective. We talk about Lebron with reverence, but if this was a Heat board with the same posters, imagine what they would say about Lebron. I'm sure it'd be along the lines of "how does the greatest player in the world get contained by KAWHI LEONARD?? That scrub isn't even an all star. Lebron must be a scrub." You hit the nail on the head, if Kawhi can become consistent super stardom is possible. Other than Anthony Davis, there are few players Kawhi's age or younger I'd prefer.

[K...]

MARION IS A ROLE PLAYER WITHOUT NASH :toast

He was a role player with Nash. But that's debatable. The thing about stardom is no one has specified that a certain level of stats denotes stardom. Is argue kawhi already has star stats. But it's the leadership and consistency that are lacking. I think you need all three to be a star: good stats, leadership capability, and consistency.


No one is 100% consistent. But you need to be more consistent in the playoffs or have a good reason for not dominating.

[ElNono]

Kawhi is young and a work in progress... hopefully he keeps progressing... his ceiling seems high

[K...]

Kawhi is young and a work in progress... hopefully he keeps progressing... his ceiling seems high

Every year but last year he's progressed more than your normal prospect, it's been frankly super surreal. That is with the exception of last year which was explained by injury. So you have a super improving prospect with an unusual skillset, but you also have the absolute truth that at some point he will peak and it may not necessarily be an age related peak. It could be personality or injury tolerance.

I get tired of people overstating kawhis current value. He was our best player last year but not by a lot. Very few people these days under estimate k, but there are buckets of trolls and immature kids who widely overstate his impact.

[ElNono]

Every year but last year he's progressed more than your normal prospect, it's been frankly super surreal. That is with the exception of last year which was explained by injury. So you have a super improving prospect with an unusual skillset, but you also have the absolute truth that at some point he will peak and it may not necessarily be an age related peak. It could be personality or injury tolerance.

I get tired of people overstating kawhis current value. He was our best player last year but not by a lot. Very few people these days under estimate k, but there are buckets of trolls and immature kids who widely overstate his impact.

I think people forget he's just 24... there's some areas he still needs to improve a lot, like his footwork and attacking the basket... he also bulked up a bit, which hopefully helps with his frailty.

He doesn't look like a player that has huge innate talent, but he's a gym rat, and willing to put up the work. I think this is the time where he'll either move to stardom or not, and let's hope he does.

[AFMadison]

Does it really matter?

[tholdren]

Matt barnes...

[SAGirl]

I think people forget he's just 24... there's some areas he still needs to improve a lot, like his footwork and attacking the basket... he also bulked up a bit, which hopefully helps with his frailty.

He doesn't look like a player that has huge innate talent, but he's a gym rat, and willing to put up the work. I think this is the time where he'll either move to stardom or not, and let's hope he does.
agree with this take. It's possible that even if offensively he's as good as he's ever going to get, he's already very good. What he does defensively coupled with the offense he does give you will place his team in a position to win most of the time, therefore he's rightfully a max player. If he wants to transcend and get to the MVP level he wants and to a hall of fame career without the big 3, he will need to do more, but he's young still and capable of hitting another level we haven't seen. Not sure about his leadership, he's maybe too quiet to inspire others and get a desire to win under their skin. Privately it may be different than we think, but even Tim has said he doesn't talk to them. I think Kawhi will need a costar always for that reason. Someone is going to have the heart, soul and fire to get others riled up and going. Consistency is also a big problem for him, lately we have seen that when his shots are not falling he gets discouraged and diminishes his defensive intensity. He's better suited to be a costar so far. I do hope he proves me wrong though. I don't care to be right about this impression of what he has shown so far. I wished he went to the uSA team olimpics. I think he could get better from facing the unfamiliar and having to mesh to win with guys who are not his regular teammates.

[YGWHI]

It's not hate to say kawhi is a good but not great player....If he's not an alpha you could call him a role player.

But you aren't saying he's good or great, you say he's a role player because your stupid "only alpha's are stars and the rest are role players"

You called Chris Paul star because he led his team in the first round last playoffs so he was a role player when his team couldn't even get past the first round?
If we look his playoffs career, we wouldn't say he's a consistent player or an extraordinary leader, why he's a star if you said a star needs "good stats, leadership capability, and consistency".

What's about the young stars in the league?

Lillard. I'd pick Kawhi over him, like others said LMA did it too, but he's a star and not Kawhi?

Klay Thompson. He isn't a consistent player in playoffs, he isn't a leader, he's the #2 option on his team but he isn't a role player. Kawhi on his worst day is 10 times better overall player than him but Kawhi isn't a star?

Kawhi Leonard is already a star, not a superstar like LeBron, Shaq or Duncan, but he's a top 10-15 player in the league, not a role player.



If you want to describe him as a psuedo alpha go ahead but if he's not an alpha you could call him a role player.
Scottie Pippen wasn't "the alpha" playing along Jordan, but he wasn't a role player in Chicago.

Like I said before the criteria is meaningless if it only applies to Kawhi.

[YGWHI]

Very few people these days under estimate k
Agreed. They're only 3 or 4 trolls/haters who every time post negative comments about him, like TGY, Super, KBL, and you.

The Spurs' offensive Big 3 "LMA, green, Parker." Danny is more versatile/better offensive player than Kawhi? C'mon...I expect more effort from you.

[Holden_Caulfield]

definitely not a #1 option on offense (yet) thats why getting LMA was huge. hes a perfect #2, for now.

[YGWHI]

pounding the rock being an objective source
I didn't say they're objective posters, it's a fan page, I pointed out the difference between fans and haters/trolls like you.


Kawhi is a retard cripple that'll probably die when he forgets to breath.
Good job, this post sounds more like you.

[YGWHI]

I think this is the time where he'll either move to stardom or not, and let's hope he does.

This new season? Maybe, maybe not. Kawhi'll take the last-big step in his evolution when Tim are Manu are gone.
2017, 26 years old...he should be very, very close to reaching his full ceiling.

[hater]

Why are ppl comparing Kawhi to a 6 time allstar??

[TheGreatYacht]

Why are ppl comparing Kawhi to a 6 time allstar??

[Kool Bob Love]

Why are ppl comparing Kawhi to a 6 time allstar??

[SuperCam]

Why are ppl comparing Kawhi to a 6 time allstar??


this, tbh

kiwi should be compared to his fellow 0 time all stars like matt bonner :tu

[Gladney to see you]

He is a Tony Allen with very good and improving offense. He is a difference maker.