Tim Duncan is the Greatest of all time......

[apalisoc_9]

- If you consider things like influencing your teamates to be better players.
- Doing the right things
- Being a real basketball role model
- Defense and offense
- Rings
- MVP's
- Sadly stolen DPOY

[Chris]

I'd love to agree, but Dad Killer with all his faults had so much influence tbh he had people that didn't even like basketball watching just to see him "fly". 2nd place for sure though imo

[AlexJones]

Dad Killer does deserve to be in the top 3 imo

[Caltex2]

Father Setter Upper is an all-time great in all of sports. He's one of the few trancendant superstars in any team sport and defined an era and beyond.

[spurraider21]

I'd love to agree, but Dad Killer with all his faults had so much influence tbh he had people that didn't even like basketball watching just to see him "fly". 2nd place for sure though imo
while i agree that MJ is the goat, "wanting to be watched" doesn't factor into being a better basketball player

[Buddy Mignon]

- If you consider things like influencing your teamates to be better players.
- Doing the right things
- Being a real basketball role model
- Defense and offense
- Rings
- MVP's
- Sadly stolen DPOY

How about influencing his team to defend their title... just once. How about influencing and all-star team to win a fucking Gold medal instead of bringing home two bronze medals. How about influencing his wife... well... you know.:downspin:

Kobe thinks Jim's defense is shitty.

9mLI04T369M

[hater]

Is he better than Ariza and Beal?

[Buddy Mignon]

Is he better than Ariza and Beal?

Kiwi fruit isn't.

[Killakobe81]

It's Jordan still despite his flaws ...

[scanry]

It's Jordan still despite his flaws ...

Hard to argue Dad killer had any flaws on the court tbh.

[Killakobe81]

Hard to argue Dad killer had any flaws on the court tbh.

You could easily argue he could have passed more ... because when he wanted to he was a great passer and although he didnt take as many bad shots as Kobe or Iverson, MJ also lacks the efficient shot selection of say LeBron James. Dont get me wrong, James also takes a few dumb heat checks but not as many as Jordan and of course Kobe.

[SuperCam]

He doesn't even hold kareem's jock, tbh

[Buddy Mignon]

He doesn't even hold kareem's jock, tbh

This

[Brazil]

I thought he was now a stat padder on an average team like Kevin Love

http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=244737&page=8&p=8193529#post8193529

:lmao

[scanry]

You could easily argue he could have passed more ... because when he wanted to he was a great passer and although he didnt take as many bad shots as Kobe or Iverson, MJ also lacks the efficient shot selection of say LeBron James. Dont get me wrong, James also takes a few dumb heat checks but not as many as Jordan and of course Kobe.

True and he did after the 1989-90 season. He let Pippen flourish but Grant wanted more touches, BJ too. The Jordan Rules book is a very good read that went into detail. As a second year coach, Phil did an incredible job righting the ship.

I can't see anyone rival MJ's career anytime soon. He was the game's best player from 1986 till his second retirement. Never took a game off and played all the 82 games every year.

[DMC]

while i agree that MJ is the goat, "wanting to be watched" doesn't factor into being a better basketball player

Mike didn't just want to be watched. People wanted to watch him. I'm not going to go off on an appeal to popularity, but Mike was popular for more than just his high flying skills. Back then Mike wasn't even the best dunker most of the time. How popular was Dominique or Larry Nance outside of the NBA? How popular has Vince Carter ever been? He's the best dunker of all times, hands down. Mike was popular because he was a cold blooded, call his shots, confident cocky and able to deliver motherfucker. He record speaks for itself. Mike is peerless.

[DMC]

It's Jordan still despite his flaws ...

lol his flaws.. Kobe lover.

[Killakobe81]

Mike didn't just want to be watched. People wanted to watch him. I'm not going to go off on an appeal to popularity, but Mike was popular for more than just his high flying skills. Back then Mike wasn't even the best dunker most of the time. How popular was Dominique or Larry Nance outside of the NBA? How popular has Vince Carter ever been? He's the best dunker of all times, hands down. Mike was popular because he was a cold blooded, call his shots, confident cocky and able to deliver motherfucker. He record speaks for itself. Mike is peerless.

WTF is going on? I am agreeing with DMC left and rightnow? WTF?! Maybe my time here is coming to an end ... but DMC is dropping truth bombs without trollin' just straight heat rocks. He got his mojo back and now I definitely wont mess with him as previously stated .. but will enjoy his wars with other s..cheers good to have you back.

Asshole.

[Killakobe81]

lol his flaws.. Kobe lover.

But then you backslide ... jeez. It was fun while it lasted ...back to ignore. SO MJ has no flaws ... a prefect basketball player? Wait, I dont debate with you anymore please ignore.

[spurraider21]

Mike didn't just want to be watched. People wanted to watch him. I'm not going to go off on an appeal to popularity, but Mike was popular for more than just his high flying skills. Back then Mike wasn't even the best dunker most of the time. How popular was Dominique or Larry Nance outside of the NBA? How popular has Vince Carter ever been? He's the best dunker of all times, hands down. Mike was popular because he was a cold blooded, call his shots, confident cocky and able to deliver motherfucker. He record speaks for itself. Mike is peerless.
I'm aware he's peerless, and it's why I called him the GOAT. I just don't think people wanting to watch him (for whatever reason) factors into that equation.

[DMC]

I'm aware he's peerless, and it's why I called him the GOAT. I just don't think people wanting to watch him (for whatever reason) factors into that equation.

Ok then you said "wanting to be watched" which is different than "wanting to watch". I agree, popularity isn't everything, but it's also not nothing. There was a reason he was popular among even die hard NBA ballers.

[spurraider21]

Ok then you said "wanting to be watched" which is different than "wanting to watch". I agree, popularity isn't everything, but it's also not nothing. There was a reason he was popular among even die hard NBA ballers.
The context was clear given the post I was responding to

[Arcadian]

Arguably, yes.

[DMC]

The context was clear given the post I was responding to
Only if you don't understand the English language well enough to know better. The post you responded to didn't mention Michael wanting to be watched. It mentioned people wanting to watch Michael. Just say you fucked up and move on, don't try to salvage it.

[Buddy Mignon]

Only if you don't understand the English language well enough to know better. The post you responded to didn't mention Michael wanting to be watched. It mentioned people wanting to watch Michael. Just say you fucked up and move on, don't try to salvage it.

Oh shut up.

[spurraider21]

Only if you don't understand the English language well enough to know better. The post you responded to didn't mention Michael wanting to be watched. It mentioned people wanting to watch Michael. Just say you fucked up and move on, don't try to salvage it.
^Philo

It was clear within the context

[Spurtacular]

- If you consider things like influencing your teamates to be better players.
- Doing the right things
- Being a real basketball role model
- Defense and offense
- Rings
- MVP's
- Sadly stolen DPOY

Not to mention stat padding.

[Spurtacular]

Mike didn't just want to be watched. People wanted to watch him. I'm not going to go off on an appeal to popularity, but Mike was popular for more than just his high flying skills. Back then Mike wasn't even the best dunker most of the time. How popular was Dominique or Larry Nance outside of the NBA? How popular has Vince Carter ever been? He's the best dunker of all times, hands down. Mike was popular because he was a cold blooded, call his shots, confident cocky and able to deliver motherfucker. He record speaks for itself. Mike is peerless.

David Stern had to change the way the game was called and water down the league to get Jordan all those rings. Before that, the Celts and Pistons were opening cans on him. People conveniently forget this.

[Clipper Nation]

David Stern had to change the way the game was called and water down the league to get Jordan all those rings. Before that, the Celts and Pistons were opening cans on him. People conveniently forget this.
This, tbh. DK was a product of Stern.

[Gent]

David Stern had to change the way the game was called and water down the league to get Jordan all those rings. Before that, the Celts and Pistons were opening cans on him. People conveniently forget this.

He was still putting up incredible numbers. He just had OK to average teammates surrounding him. Going up against Bird and Mchale and the big giants of that era, no kidding he was getting whooped by himself.

[Infinite_limit]

David Stern had to change the way the game was called and water down the league to get Jordan all those rings. Before that, the Celts and Pistons were opening cans on him. People conveniently forget this.
The failures add to his legacy. He was drafted on a Franchise with 0 titles and steadily built them up into the Greatest Run in Modern Sports [Yankees]

He wasn't draft on a team with another HOF like most of the guys in the Top 10

[RsxPiimp]

Mike didn't just want to be watched. People wanted to watch him. I'm not going to go off on an appeal to popularity, but Mike was popular for more than just his high flying skills. Back then Mike wasn't even the best dunker most of the time. How popular was Dominique or Larry Nance outside of the NBA? How popular has Vince Carter ever been? He's the best dunker of all times, hands down. Mike was popular because he was a cold blooded, call his shots, confident cocky and able to deliver motherfucker. He record speaks for itself. Mike is peerless.

The count of Monte Crisco dropping some unadulterated, saturated crispy onion rings truth bombs...

[Buddy Mignon]

Its really an insult to even mention Jim in this conversation. He's not even the best of his era let alone the best of all time. One thing all of the top guys have in common along with multiple rings is they are top 5 in major statistical categories. After 18 seasons Jim is not even close. Simply put... he was never great at anything... just consistent.

[ambchang]

Its really an insult to even mention Jim in this conversation. He's not even the best of his era let alone the best of all time. One thing all of the top guys have in common along with multiple rings is they are top 5 in major statistical categories. After 18 seasons Jim is not even close. Simply put... he was never great at anything... just consistent.

#3 all time in offensive rebounds
#6 in blocks (likely to surpass Robinson and Eaton to become #4 this year)
#5 in defensive rebound percentage
#3 in DRating
#2 in DWS
#6 in WS (has a chance to pass Stockton and be #5 all time this year)
#6 in VORP
#5 in playoff points
#1 in playoff blocks
#3 in playoff rebounds
#1 in playoff d rebounds
#2 in playoff o rebounds
#2 in playoff DWS
#2 in playoff WS
#3 in playoff VORP

[Buddy Mignon]

#3 all time in offensive rebounds
#6 in blocks (likely to surpass Robinson and Eaton to become #4 this year)
#5 in defensive rebound percentage
#3 in DRating
#2 in DWS
#6 in WS (has a chance to pass Stockton and be #5 all time this year)
#6 in VORP
#5 in playoff points
#1 in playoff blocks
#3 in playoff rebounds
#1 in playoff d rebounds
#2 in playoff o rebounds
#2 in playoff DWS
#2 in playoff WS
#3 in playoff VORP


I'll give you blocks as as a major and Jim is still not top 5.

[ambchang]

I'll give you blocks as as a major and Jim is still not top 5.

Winning is not major? That explains a lot.

And since when are points not major to Kobe fans? It's about the only thing that Kobe fans look at.

[Buddy Mignon]

Winning is not major? That explains a lot.

And since when are points not major to Kobe fans? It's about the only thing that Kobe fans look at.

By default Jim has good playoff numbers due to never missing the playoffs for 18 years. His regular season numbers don't measure up. He never led the league in any category for a season.

[ambchang]

By default Jim has good playoff numbers due to never missing the playoffs for 18 years. His regular season numbers don't measure up. He never led the league in any category for a season.

Say what?

Duncan led the league in total and defensive rebounds, FGM, FTM and 2PM in 2001-02 season.
Led the league in DRating 4 times
Led the league in DWS 4 times
Led the league in OWS once
Led the league in WS twice
Led the league in BPM once
Led the league in VORP once
Led the league in a lot of totals in playoffs in multiple years (rebounds blocks points)
Led the league in blocks per game in the playoffs twice
Led the playoffs in WS twice, OWS once, DWS once, WS/48 once, DBPM once, BPM twice, and VORP twice.

[The Franchise]

Arguably, yes.

I love Timmy but you guys need to stop with this.

[BD24]

I love Tim, but he gets overrated on here sometimes. I think Tim is a top 5 player of all time, but to say he is #1? No. Its not even arguable. IMO MJ and Kareem are head and shoulders above the rest.

Then you also have faggots like Naruto who try to pretend he isn't a top 10 player.

[Fabbs]

By default Jim has good playoff numbers due to never missing the playoffs for 18 years. His regular season numbers don't measure up. He never led the league in any category for a season.
How does ambchangs ass taste? :lol

[Arcadian]

I love Tim, but he gets overrated on here sometimes. I think Tim is a top 5 player of all time, but to say he is #1? No. Its not even arguable. IMO MJ and Kareem are head and shoulders above the rest.

Tim is basically a contemporary Kareem. What can you do to prove your claim other than citing Kareem's inflated stats from the 70s? If Kareem is arguable as a goat, his contemporary should be also.

[Killakobe81]

Tim is basically a contemporary Kareem. What can you do to prove your claim other than citing Kareem's inflated stats from the 70s? If Kareem is arguable as a goat, his contemporary should be also.

No Tim is not and no Kareem is not but he has a case. It's MJ. And I was not even a Jordan fan in the 90's. I rooted for the Knicks, Magic, Sonics to beat him ...because everyone was on his nuts. But if you take nostalgia, Fan worship, even metrics out the picture ...this guy led 2 different 3 peats. He defended his title twice on two separate occasions. Some cant do it once. You can argue the 90's were weak and they were compared to the 80's, 00's and 10's ... but no one else has dominated the way Jordan did. Magic and bird the golden 80's boys BOTH call Jordan the GOAT and Magic played with Kareem.

It's Jordan period.

[Arcadian]

No Tim is not and no Kareem is not but he has a case. It's MJ. And I was not even a Jordan fan in the 90's. I rooted for the Knicks, Magic, Sonics to beat him ...because everyone was on his nuts. But if you take nostalgia, Fan worship, even metrics out the picture ...this guy led 2 different 3 peats. He defended his title twice on two separate occasions. Some cant do it once. You can argue the 90's were weak and they were compared to the 80's, 00's and 10's ... but no one else has dominated the way Jordan did. Magic and bird the golden 80's boys BOTH call Jordan the GOAT and Magic played with Kareem.

It's Jordan period.

:rolleyes What a vanilla take.

[Killakobe81]

:rolleyes What a vanilla take.

What is vanilla? I didnt see most of Kareem's prime (hardly any) I saw Tim's (especially when i lived in SA) and most of Jordan's (not as many games in available to watch in his early days than God for WGN). There is not a place on this green earth (outside of Spurstalk) where a person that knows hoops and saw them both ...takes Tim over MJ.

You can maybe make a outside case for LeBron if you lower the importance of rings ... but no one is truly MJ's equal ... no matter what criteria you want to use. Stats, metrics, rings he is the GOAT in whatever flavor you want vanilla, chocolate, strawberry of the modern era. He is the best.

Now if you want to argue the gap is not as large as some make it seem? I would buy that. People act as though you cant even have the conversation. But as I have said many times no matter who you place with MJ that convo is a short one. You start with 6 rings 2 3peats the MVPS and scoring titles. But just WATCH him play and it's over.

[TDfan2007]

Tim has absolutely no case for GOAT. Maybe GOAT teammate along with Russel, but not GOAT overall. He's easily top 10 and arguably top 5 all time, which is honestly pretty damn incredible.

[Killakobe81]

Shit Jordan is the only non center with a top 10 win share season (all-time). In fact, David Robinson actually has a better peak win share season than Tim. Jordan was the only one to post a greater than since the 80's outside of Lebron who did it once. MJ has done it 4 different times. I am no stat whore but the numbers match what I see.

Side note: Kareem has 3 of the 10 best win share seasons. Wilt has 4 Mikan 2 and Jordan only one. Kareem has a better case than I thought because his 3 are in the top 7 including the all-time best mark. I love how folks here use this metric but discount Kareem because he did it in the 70's ...silly. But I never saw Kareem's prime which is why I give Mj the nod over Kareem but if I go strictly by numbers it's Kareem or Wilt.

[Mikeanaro]

I only came here to see if there was any Amy related post, Culburn must be getting soft.

[Buddy Mignon]

I love Tim, but he gets overrated on here sometimes. I think Tim is a top 5 player of all time, but to say he is #1? No. Its not even arguable. IMO MJ and Kareem are head and shoulders above the rest.

Then you also have faggots like Naruto who try to pretend he isn't a top 10 player.

What's your criteria? I go eye test first... stats second, individual accomplishments third... and team accomplishments last. If you take the consensus top 3... Jordan, Kareem and Magic... you have to ask yourself what were they great at. Kareem is the all-time leading scorer and led the league in that category a number of times. Jordan was the greatest scorer... and led that category 10 times in his career. Magic was the best passer and led the league in assists and steals a number of times. So... to mention players next to them you'd have to use the same criteria. Can you add Jim next to them using that same criteria? NO!!! Hakeem, yes... Kobe, yes... Shaq, yes.

[BD24]

No Tim is not and no Kareem is not but he has a case. It's MJ. And I was not even a Jordan fan in the 90's. I rooted for the Knicks, Magic, Sonics to beat him ...because everyone was on his nuts. But if you take nostalgia, Fan worship, even metrics out the picture ...this guy led 2 different 3 peats. He defended his title twice on two separate occasions. Some cant do it once. You can argue the 90's were weak and they were compared to the 80's, 00's and 10's ... but no one else has dominated the way Jordan did. Magic and bird the golden 80's boys BOTH call Jordan the GOAT and Magic played with Kareem.

It's Jordan period.
Agree with all of this. I really hate Michael Jordan as a person, but he is the undisputed GOAT.

[Buddy Mignon]

Say what?

Duncan led the league in total and defensive rebounds, FGM, FTM and 2PM in 2001-02 season.
Led the league in DRating 4 times
Led the league in DWS 4 times
Led the league in OWS once
Led the league in WS twice
Led the league in BPM once
Led the league in VORP once
Led the league in a lot of totals in playoffs in multiple years (rebounds blocks points)
Led the league in blocks per game in the playoffs twice
Led the playoffs in WS twice, OWS once, DWS once, WS/48 once, DBPM once, BPM twice, and VORP twice.


Not one of those are major categories.

[Thebesteva]

This, tbh. DK was a product of Stern.

Every one of your posts is somehow indirectly sucking LeBRONZE dick

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12009613_1503857593267620_84676597475279042_n.jpg? oh=8071791ae567131f81e715ba3e334dad&oe=569B8F64

[Killakobe81]

Every one of your posts is somehow indirectly sucking LeBRONZE dick

https://scontent-sjc2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xta1/v/t1.0-9/12009613_1503857593267620_84676597475279042_n.jpg? oh=8071791ae567131f81e715ba3e334dad&oe=569B8F64
:lol

[ambchang]

Not one of those are major categories.

Rebounds are not a major category? FGM and FTM are not major categories? Blocks are not major categories? Stats closely related to winning aren't major categories? What are major categories then?

[ambchang]

Shit Jordan is the only non center with a top 10 win share season (all-time). In fact, David Robinson actually has a better peak win share season than Tim. Jordan was the only one to post a greater than since the 80's outside of Lebron who did it once. MJ has done it 4 different times. I am no stat whore but the numbers match what I see.

Side note: Kareem has 3 of the 10 best win share seasons. Wilt has 4 Mikan 2 and Jordan only one. Kareem has a better case than I thought because his 3 are in the top 7 including the all-time best mark. I love how folks here use this metric but discount Kareem because he did it in the 70's ...silly. But I never saw Kareem's prime which is why I give Mj the nod over Kareem but if I go strictly by numbers it's Kareem or Wilt.

The biggest problem with Kareem is really the 70s, because a majority of his prime, many big name players played in the ABA, which led to weaker competition and boosted his WS.

[ambchang]

What's your criteria? I go eye test first... stats second, individual accomplishments third... and team accomplishments last. If you take the consensus top 3... Jordan, Kareem and Magic... you have to ask yourself what were they great at. Kareem is the all-time leading scorer and led the league in that category a number of times. Jordan was the greatest scorer... and led that category 10 times in his career. Magic was the best passer and led the league in assists and steals a number of times. So... to mention players next to them you'd have to use the same criteria. Can you add Jim next to them using that same criteria? NO!!! Hakeem, yes... Kobe, yes... Shaq, yes.

What was Hakeem, Kobe and Shaq "great at" that Duncan wasn't?

We know the greatest unbreakable record Kobe have is FGM (missed, not made). Unparalleled.

[Killakobe81]

The biggest problem with Kareem is really the 70s, because a majority of his prime, many big name players played in the ABA, which led to weaker competition and boosted his WS.

And with MJ a lot of the 80's stars got old and were replaced with lessor versions. Taking a look at it Amb, WS does seem to favor bigs. I mean not many other metrics I have seen have Mikan that high. But you deal with them more ... amirite?

[ambchang]

And with MJ a lot of the 80's stars got old and were replaced with lessor versions. Taking a look at it Amb, WS does seem to favor bigs. I mean not many other metrics I have seen have Mikan that high. But you deal with them more ... amirite?

Well, WS actually benefits player with weaker competition, especially at their positions. Which isn't a coincidence old-timers really dominate this area, because competition really wasn't as fierce back in the day when money wasn't that big, and the movement to get better players wasn't that high.

On the other hand, this is true for every stat, but maybe not as prominently as WS.

Jordan, Lebron, Oscar all had monster WS seasons, and the reason Robinson was ranked that high was because his team was that bad, and he just led them to better than expected records year after year. CP3 had a great WS season as well, because the entire game plan was designed around him.

Mikan simply weren't ranked in VORP and BPM because the stats didn't keep them, he didn't have any. Same with Bill Russell.

[Killakobe81]

Well, WS actually benefits player with weaker competition, especially at their positions. Which isn't a coincidence old-timers really dominate this area, because competition really wasn't as fierce back in the day when money wasn't that big, and the movement to get better players wasn't that high.

On the other hand, this is true for every stat, but maybe not as prominently as WS.

Jordan, Lebron, Oscar all had monster WS seasons, and the reason Robinson was ranked that high was because his team was that bad, and he just led them to better than expected records year after year. CP3 had a great WS season as well, because the entire game plan was designed around him.

Mikan simply weren't ranked in VORP and BPM because the stats didn't keep them, he didn't have any. Same with Bill Russell.

Appreciate the perspective. All these stats are inherently flawed which is why I dont trust them over my eyes. But I f you use WS, PER, and VORP I think you get a pretty good idea or confirmation of great players.

[Buddy Mignon]

What was Hakeem, Kobe and Shaq "great at" that Duncan wasn't?

We know the greatest unbreakable record Kobe have is FGM (missed, not made). Unparalleled.


Hakeem led the league in blocks 3 times and total rebounds twice. Kobe led the league in scoring twice and one of only three players to average more than 35ppg along with Wilt and Jordan. Shaq led the league in scoring twice. Jim's greatest numbers are only slightly better than his average. He averages 20ppg for his career but only was able to reach 25ppg once in a season. In other words... when Jim reaches deep down its only slightly better than what he averages. Not so for Kobe, Shaq, or Hakeem. When you factor in Jim going into his 19th season and never having missing the playoffs... he nowhere near the top 5 in points, rebounds, steals, assists, or blocks. So I ask you... what was he great at? Consistency... that's all. None of his numbers jump out at you.

[ambchang]

Hakeem led the league in blocks 3 times and total rebounds twice. Kobe led the league in scoring twice and one of only three players to average more than 35ppg along with Wilt and Jordan. Shaq led the league in scoring twice. Jim's greatest numbers are only slightly better than his average. He averages 20ppg for his career but only was able to reach 25ppg once in a season. In other words... when Jim reaches deep down its only slightly better than what he averages. Not so for Kobe, Shaq, or Hakeem. When you factor in Jim going into his 19th season and never having missing the playoffs... he nowhere near the top 5 in points, rebounds, steals, assists, or blocks. So I ask you... what was he great at? Consistency... that's all. None of his numbers jump out at you.

Tim's best numbers are better than his average, and his average is one of the best of all time.

Adjusted for pace, Hakeem's career best was 35.8pp100 with career of 30.3, Duncan clocked in at 33.5 and a career of 30.1.

Duncan led the league in rebounds, and the only thing you like to talk about is scoring? Duncan, at least, was top 10 in multiple seasons in blocks and rebounds, what has Kobe ranked top 10 in other than scoring (or scoring and related stuff) and steals (well, and TO and missed shots)?

For all the scoring that Kobe did, his top offensive rating is 115 and 117 in the playoffs. Duncan got 116 and had 3 playoffs where his ORTG > 117, despite playing on the slower paced Spurs for all his prime.

And I haven't even gotten into DRating. Kobe's biggest ORTG DRTG difference is only 12 (as a sidekick in 99-00) and 17 in the playoffs, Duncan's was 19, and 24 in the playoffs. The two of them don't even compare.

[Buddy Mignon]

You can adjust whatever the fuck you like. Its the only way you'll be able to mention Jim with the others. His raw numbers are what counts.

[ambchang]

You can adjust whatever the fuck you like. Its the only way you'll be able to mention Jim with the others. His raw numbers are what counts.
His raw number have him leading the league in rebounds.

[Ice009]

The more I learn about Wilt Chamberlain, the more I think he's a little underrated. I know he played against guys that weren't as strong as him or as big, but he dominated the game. I've seen videos on where some of the old players said that Wilt didn't even really use his strength on the court because he was scared he might seriously hurt someone. He didn't lower his shoulder into players like Shaq used to or do similar stuff like that. I saw someone mention that he even played more of a finesse game. Is that true? If so, I'm even more impressed.

The guy seems to have had quite a bit of skill to go along with his incredible strength and size. I wonder if he could have dominated even more if he had tried bullying players like Shaq used to do solely with his size.

I read that a couple of NBA teams even tried signing him in his mid-late 40s. I also read that he could bench press more than Shaq's best at age 60.

I wonder if people downplay him because he didn't win as many Championships as some of the other players on all-time lists? I'm sure I even heard Jordan mention him as one of the guys he'd pick as a best player of all-time. Not sure if Jordan was giving his true opinion though as I think his answer was in response to the interviewer asking Michael if he thought he was the best player of all-time. Jordan also did mention in that interview that he didn't think you can pick just one player as being the best over everyone else.