Volkwagen flames out

[RandomGuy]

Stock is down 30%+ in two days on revelations that they actively deceived US regulators.

Software turned on emission controls during tests, then turned it off for regular driving. Whoops.
http://news.yahoo.com/vw-cooperating-german-investigation-vehicles-071839997--finance.html



BERLIN (AP) — Volkswagen AG's emissions scandal crisis escalated Tuesday as the company issued a profit warning, set aside billions to cover the fallout and saw its shares take another battering. The CEO of the world's top-selling carmaker declared he was "endlessly sorry" that the company had squandered worldwide trust in its brand.

The rapid-fire developments followed the stunning admission that some 11 million of the German carmaker's diesel vehicles worldwide were fitted with software that evaded U.S. emissions controls.

As its share price sunk for a second straight day, Volkswagen said it was setting aside around 6.5 billion euros ($7.3 billion) to cover the fallout. CEO Martin Winterkorn apologized for his company's deception and pledged a fast and thorough investigation, but gave no indication that he was considering leaving.

[DMC]

Because he didn't know. Who's going to be the Oliver North in that scandal?

[101A]

Have a '13 Passat & '14 Q7 TDI; To this point the Audi is in the clear; I've seen mixed signals on the Passat (mine has the AdBlue).

[SnakeBoy]

On my watch list...long way from being a Buy though.

[boutons_deux]

can't find it now, but ex EPA guy says US mfrs have always been cheating, trying to cheat, not cooperating, and getting caught. Japanese cars pass EPA regs without cheating.

[boutons_deux]

found it:

When I worked at the EPA, finding these defeat devices was “part of the job.” We never had any trouble with the Japanese, but all the other manufacturers were doing highly suspect things. With microprocessor engine controls in every car, it is very hard to find what is going on.

Once, a VW was in the middle of failing a 100,000-mile driving test (pollution devices had to work for 100,000 miles) and suddenly caught fire, so the test had to be restarted. EPA engineers joked they were sure they saw a broken “Molotov cocktail” on the road next to the car. There were some other VW shenanigans, but they were too complicated to explain. I owned a VW at the time, but it was falling apart constantly so I had no sympathy whatever for VW.

Chrysler got caught doing something like VW, but was caught in testing, so it paid a smaller fine.

Ford lied like crazy and the EPA director had a big photo over his desk of the million $ check for a fine they had to pay. They were also ordered to “behave cooperatively” as opposed to the snarling obnoxious behavior they had formerly exhibited.

I also caught Ford in a defeat device and had to write a memo to them asking for written info instead of the lying (but sooo friendly) PR guys they sent out. They never answered, so my letter was used in court as proof that we had tried but they hadn’t cooperated.

GM was no better, but they were cleverer so we couldn’t catch them in testing. Enforcement division out in the field got them.

Honestly, it was just an “EPA doesn’t tell US what to do” attitude — it would have been cheaper for them if they had followed the Japanese example and just made clean cars to begin with.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/09/22/how-common-are-cheating-epa-test-defeat-devices-in-the-auto-industry/

[Medvedenko]

They'll take a hit and I'm sure the media will be all over them, however they'll be fine. Look, GM had cars that actually killed people and people continue to buy them. It will take a lot more then emission issues to sink a brand. Time will tell though.

[SnakeBoy]

They'll take a hit and I'm sure the media will be all over them, however they'll be fine. Look, GM had cars that actually killed people and people continue to buy them. It will take a lot more then emission issues to sink a brand. Time will tell though.

Yeah they will be fine. They've already set aside 7 billion to pay off the govt and fired the CEO. Only question is where will the stock bottom out.

[boutons_deux]

USA TDI owners are suing, maybe a class action suit. $7B may not be nearly enough. $18B was a number kicked around, just to pay the govt fines.

[Brazil]

USA TDI owners are suing, maybe a class action suit. $7B may not be nearly enough. $18B was a number kicked around, just to pay the govt fines.

18B would mean the end of the company tbh so I don't see it BUT

In this amount it is not included the cost of the recall... 500,000 veicles to be recalled is freaking huge. Another side effect is now European authorities are gonna test the cars, it would be surprising they only cheated in US. VW is in deep deep shit. Other GMs of other cars manufacturers are probably shitting their pants too

[Brazil]

They'll take a hit and I'm sure the media will be all over them, however they'll be fine. Look, GM had cars that actually killed people and people continue to buy them. It will take a lot more then emission issues to sink a brand. Time will tell though.

That's not really about emission issues but more about lying and implementing devices to cheat the rules...

[DMC]

Yeah they will be fine. They've already set aside 7 billion to pay off the govt and fired the CEO. Only question is where will the stock bottom out.
Where ever that is, buy it.

Btw, you'll be fine in Texas. They don't test diesel emissions.

[DMC]

That's not really about emission issues but more about lying and implementing devices to cheat the rules...
No it's about emissions. If the cars won't pass emissions tests, recalls aren't going to do shit. DEF and EGRs are shit, so if they have to redesign all that shit to meet some shitty standard, they are going to be fucked, at least the diesel line. Happened to Ford as well, but not as severe. They took an international workhorse and Navstar'd the fuck out of it, killed it, and disowned it.

[Brazil]

No it's about emissions. If the cars won't pass emissions tests, recalls aren't going to do shit. DEF and EGRs are shit, so if they have to redesign all that shit to meet some shitty standard, they are going to be fucked, at least the diesel line. Happened to Ford as well, but not as severe. They took an international workhorse and Navstar'd the fuck out of it, killed it, and disowned it.

I was quoting a post where emission issues is what could cause or not brand to sink... Brand won't sink because of that but they get caught lying and cheating.. Kinda hard to become again a trust worthy brand after that. Diesel is peanuts in U.S.but in Europe it's kind of a big deal.

then I don't get your shitty standard... In what this standard is shitty ? Even if considered shitty, topic is also about lying to an official authority

[boutons_deux]

18B would mean the end of the company tbh so I don't see it BUT

In this amount it is not included the cost of the recall... 500,000 veicles to be recalled is freaking huge. Another side effect is now European authorities are gonna test the cars, it would be surprising they only cheated in US. VW is in deep deep shit. Other GMs of other cars manufacturers are probably shitting their pants too

VW had $12B in profit last year. Like BP, the payment will not be in one lump sum. $18B won't kill VW, and Euro govts won't let it die.

[DMC]

I was quoting a post where emission issues is what could cause or not brand to sink... Brand won't sink because of that but they get caught lying and cheating.. Kinda hard to become again a trust worthy brand after that. Diesel is peanuts in U.S.but in Europe it's kind of a big deal.

then I don't get your shitty standard... In what this standard is shitty ? Even if considered shitty, topic is also about lying to an official authority
Car manufacturers have to meet California emissions standards. Most other states don't even test for diesel emissions. One state creates this global fuck fest where companies have to kow tow in order to import their cars. There's like 9 states that test diesel emissions, but NY and California are the heavy hitters in the auto industry.

[boutons_deux]

companies have to kow tow in order to import their cars.

many countries have "technical barriers to imports", and not only for cars.

[SnakeBoy]

Where ever that is, buy it.

Btw, you'll be fine in Texas. They don't test diesel emissions.

Yeah, I read an article from a guy saying there will be some steals on VW diesels especially used ones.

[hater]

HITLERMOBILE will survive no doubt. They are a huge company that can sustain up to 25 billion in losses. Plus the German government will bail them out if needed.

Too big to fail

[DisAsTerBot]

buy stock?

[hater]

Btw is anyone surprised at this coming from a company founded by Hitler? :lmao

[DMX7]

VW owns Porsche, right? That's scary, but I don't think this would possibly affect the Porsches I would consider buying (non-diesel).

[CosmicCowboy]

VW owns Porsche, right? That's scary, but I don't think this would possibly affect the Porsches I would consider buying (non-diesel).

VW, Porsche, Audi

1 in 6 Germans works in the auto industry

[DMX7]

1 in 6 Germans works in the auto industry

Wow, I didn't realize that. But I'm looking at it more from a selfish car buyers perspective, LOL.

[DMX7]

Volkswagen CEO just resigned.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/24/business/international/volkswagen-chief-martin-winterkorn-resigns-amid-emissions-scandal.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

[Fabbs]

buy stock?
Not yet.
Like with BP, give it some more time to truly bottom out.

[Wild Cobra]

found it:

When I worked at the EPA, finding these defeat devices was “part of the job.” We never had any trouble with the Japanese, but all the other manufacturers were doing highly suspect things. With microprocessor engine controls in every car, it is very hard to find what is going on.

Once, a VW was in the middle of failing a 100,000-mile driving test (pollution devices had to work for 100,000 miles) and suddenly caught fire, so the test had to be restarted. EPA engineers joked they were sure they saw a broken “Molotov cocktail” on the road next to the car. There were some other VW shenanigans, but they were too complicated to explain. I owned a VW at the time, but it was falling apart constantly so I had no sympathy whatever for VW.

Chrysler got caught doing something like VW, but was caught in testing, so it paid a smaller fine.

Ford lied like crazy and the EPA director had a big photo over his desk of the million $ check for a fine they had to pay. They were also ordered to “behave cooperatively” as opposed to the snarling obnoxious behavior they had formerly exhibited.

I also caught Ford in a defeat device and had to write a memo to them asking for written info instead of the lying (but sooo friendly) PR guys they sent out. They never answered, so my letter was used in court as proof that we had tried but they hadn’t cooperated.

GM was no better, but they were cleverer so we couldn’t catch them in testing. Enforcement division out in the field got them.

Honestly, it was just an “EPA doesn’t tell US what to do” attitude — it would have been cheaper for them if they had followed the Japanese example and just made clean cars to begin with.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/09/22/how-common-are-cheating-epa-test-defeat-devices-in-the-auto-industry/




Weren't most of these examples dealing with mileage rather than emissions?

[DMC]

At least it's not an American automobile company, else we'd have to bail them out soon so that 7 billion would come from taxpayers to some anonymous entity. That's just another way of moving money from the middle class to the Illuminati.

Hey the automaker was fined big time
Hey they are struggling, going to close a plant
Hey congress is doing a bail out
Hey the automaker is doing well again
Hey I can't pay my mortgage because my taxes are too high

'Murica

[Brazil]

At least it's not an American automobile company, else we'd have to bail them out soon so that 7 billion would come from taxpayers to some anonymous entity. That's just another way of moving money from the middle class to the Illuminati.

Hey the automaker was fined big time
Hey they are struggling, going to close a plant
Hey congress is doing a bail out
Hey the automaker is doing well again
Hey I can't pay my mortgage because my taxes are too high

'Murica

:lol that's so true

[Winehole23]

VW, Porsche, Audi

1 in 6 Germans works in the auto industry


All of a sudden, Volkswagen has become a bigger downside risk for the German economy than the Greek debt crisis," ING chief economist Carsten Brzeski told Reuters.

"If Volkswagen's sales were to plunge in North America in the coming months, this would not only have an impact on the company, but on the German economy as a whole," he added.
Volkswagen sold nearly 600,000 cars in the United States last year, around 6 percent of its 9.5 million global sales.


The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said the company could face penalties of up to $18 billion, more than its entire operating profit for last year.http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/us-usa-volkswagen-germany-economy-idUSKCN0RN27S20150923

[RandomGuy]

USA TDI owners are suing, maybe a class action suit. $7B may not be nearly enough. $18B was a number kicked around, just to pay the govt fines.

I heard one owner straight up ask for her money back in a radio interview. That adds up real quick at 20-40k a pop.

[RandomGuy]

[german economy potentially threatened by VW problems]http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/us-usa-volkswagen-germany-economy-idUSKCN0RN27S20150923

Saw that. The German government is announcing its own probe too, if I am not mistaken.

[RandomGuy]

Yeah they will be fine. They've already set aside 7 billion to pay off the govt and fired the CEO. Only question is where will the stock bottom out.

This is not a case of just hiding something, or covering up a mistake. This is active deception of millions of people, potentially across multiple countries.

I highly doubt they will be able to mitigate this anytime soon. Much of VW's sales in the US were predicated on the fact that their diesels were "clean".

Further the Justice Department may actually bring up criminal charges.
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21666226-volkswagens-falsification-pollution-tests-opens-door-very-different-car


In a speech this month, America’s deputy attorney-general, Sally Yates, said that from now on, fining businesses would take second place to pursuing criminal and civil charges against individuals. An accused firm will no longer get credit for co-operating with investigations (as VW says it will) unless it gives the feds the names of every manager or employee involved in wrongdoing, and seeks to gather and submit evidence of their personal responsibility. VW is a test of this new approach. But to avoid suspicions of being tougher on foreign firms—as were raised in the BP Deepwater case and in recent banking settlements—the American authorities should also prosecute culpable GM managers.

[m>s]

Perfect timing considering they just expanded operations into Russia

[m>s]

The source of the usa asshurt:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-04/vw-ford-open-engine-plants-in-russia-amid-car-market-decline


uou only get caught if you piss off the wrong people. Otherwise it's all business as usual.

[DarrinS]

How to tell when your neighbor is a progressive douche


http://www.weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/CQBdFVRWgAA83DH.jpg-large-486x650.jpeg

[boutons_deux]

Have a '13 Passat & '14 Q7 TDI; To this point the Audi is in the clear

Audi confesses to same fraud in 2.1M vehicles

[boutons_deux]

BMW?

M-B?

[boutons_deux]

for Republicans, this situation epically ties them into knots and this is where Democrats have a platinum opportunity to destroy so many Right wing memes.

1. It proves the liberal assertion that without regulations, companies will do anything for profits.

2. It validates the EPA's existence, why it's budget should be expanded, not cut.

3. It illustrates the public good of public universities.

4. Any public discussion invariably leads to discussion of carbon emissions, climate science, and thus man made climate change, or at least it's too damned close for anyone on the Right to go there.

5. It showcases the risks of privatizing social security, especially how disastrous it'd be where deregulation encourages greedy corporate behavior.

How do we know this situation has the Right scared out of its mind? Because this is what we've heard from them so far:


**crickets**


That's right, finding a Republican quote on this major story is as rare as finding a GOP politician acting as a grand marshal in a gay pride parade.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/09/29/1425728/-VW-the-EPA-Climate-Change-The-Bermuda-Triangle-of-Political-Traps-for-Republicans?detail=email

[Slomo]

VW, Porsche, Audi

1 in 6 Germans works in the auto industry

VW owns:
- Porsche - Audi
- Seat
- Skoda
- Lamborghini
- Bugatti

If memory serves they are the largest car manufacturer on the planet.

Yeah they'll take a hit but have the cash reserves to absorb it and they will clean up the mess in their typical efficient German manner.

[bigzak25]

Good to see you online Slomo! We'll always have London!

[Brazil]

If memory serves they are the largest car manufacturer on the planet.



Nah it is still Toyota but VW is number 2 and closing on Toyota. VW Plan was to take the lead by 2018 but forecast were showing them taking over in 16.

Toyota in 2014 produced 10,2 M cars 10,1 M for VW, I have not seen data for 2015 yet