The Poor

[sickdsm]

Second annual Labor day pilgramage to the lake this year w/ my GF's dad went a lot better this year. He loves to preach about everything especially his liberal politics. We got to discussing Katrina and N.O. and how the people there were so poor. Then it got to poor people in general and that struck a chord with me.

Some background info. I'm 25 and i farm along with my brother and dad. Me and my brother bust our ass's. I don't waste much money. I'm thrifty and don't go out to eat that much, I have my luxuries but there more along the lines of PS2 and a couple of games rather than the common snowmobiles, newer vehicles, etc...

So were talking about the poor people and he says there's nothing for them, no jobs are available and if they are they don't pay much. I called bullshit on that one. I know the job market is differnt everywhere but i can find anyone $12 an hour jobs like its nothing. That might seem like a teen summer job but the cost of living is so cheap here, a decent, medium sized house in a small town can be found under 20K. I know damn well that truck drivers are in high demand all over the country and the pay's not bad.

I also know that most americans are spoiled. The reason you see a lot of those fucktards on TV (not all) complaining about trying to support a family of 4 on a McDonalds job is beause its an easy job. People spend too much and don't think anything about it. Damn right i got jealous when i'd see kids at my HS driving corvettes and clasicc cars to school but there the same ones that are wasting money on hunting trips and new snowmobiles when they really can't afford it.

Her Dad agrees that i work hard and don't waste money but responded that he didn't think i ever had it rough (growing up we were pretty poor but that's my motivation). I had an ace in the hole to use on him but i bit my tongue.

I wanted to ask him if he's ever had it rough, which i knew he was poor before. When he answered yes i was going to ask him if that was before or after he wasted 6 years of his life in his 20's backpacking through europe.
I do have compassion for poor people, but only ones who have it rough through other circumstances, health problems, kids health problems, child support, etc...

I may never make alot in one year, but I probably will be well off when i'm older. And to me that's what matters, i'd much rather be 55-60 and taking it easy then working through my arthritis thinking i had fun when i was younger. I don't want to be Brooksie or Red.

The ONLY thing that stops these people from setting out and making a life is the stubborness to leave what is comfortable. I'm not arguing that part is tough but i'm arguing that's all thats' stopping them. There was an article in the local paper about the oil fields in western ND can't find workers, $25 an hour, 82 hour week, next week off. Its not a 9-5 job but hey, You do what you have to do, don't you? $200 should get you a bus ticket from anywhere and a week's motel to start you a new life. My GF's step dad i admire a lot, he was dirt poor growing up a white kid in a black ghetto in Chicago. He was a bigger guy and learned to box out of neccessity. He saw an ad for a Univerisity in North Dakota in the nutritional department. Free housing and free food, they want to test different foods and see what they help/hurt.
He took a one way bus not knowing a soul up there and made a life out of it.

Not much has changed in America in regards to success, if you work hard you can make it a go.

[T Park]

BRAVO SICK!!!!


I do have compassion for poor people, but only ones who have it rough through other circumstances, health problems, kids health problems, child support, etc...


I agree with everything but the child support.

In response to the child support, if you cant afford that, you couldn't afford the kid in the first place, therefore, keep the pantalones arriba brotha.

[Nbadan]

Look, I'm not busting your chops because I have much of the same attitude as you about hard work being its own reward, but let me take a wild guess here - your Caucasian and most of the jobs you have in mind for $12/hour are with local companies that hire other people who are 'like you'. I'm not trying to imply that employers in your area are rampant racist or anything, but it’s a fact that most people like to be surrounded by people whom they share similar experiences with; therefore, your culture, your ethnicity, your reputation and your background make you attractive to employers who are readily willing and able to pay you that much money.

However, that is not the case in most inner-cities. Unemployment among blacks is typically much higher than other races at all age levels. African-American also typically make much less in their lifetimes that most other races. When you combine the effects of low-job skills and a employers market of employees to choose from, you get a plethora of jobs with low wages and little or no benefits.

So Instead of relishing in your good fortune, whether you appreciate it or not, and lamenting the plight of the poor, you should instead be encouraging the companies that you know who pay $12/hour to consider hiring people who come from different ethnicities and from diverse cultures. Providing benefits like on the job training, insurance, and family services can make a world of difference to someone who needs a helping hand. That's how you can really make a difference in someone’s life.

[Vashner]

So there are no poor white people?

You just assume he's white and started at 12 bucks...

[Extra Stout]

Part of the problem a lot of us middle-class white folks have is that we attribute to our own personal virtue what is really the result of culture and peer pressure.

It would have been very difficult for me to end up as a high school dropout selling drugs on a street corner. I had strong family influences that would have dissuaded me immediately from that. My peers would have regarded me as a freak and a loser. Those around me were focused upon getting themselves into college. While there were those who valued sex and alcohol, the "coolness" of self-destructive behavior was very low. Basically, I would have needed to persevere through a gauntlet of negative short-term consequences in order to fail in life, and it's unlikely that kind of perseverance would be coupled with the kind of character flaws that would lead me in a downward spiral towards failure. A middle-class white person can be of unremarkable character and turn out OK just by avoiding resistance.

And when middle-class white people do make poor decisions, like getting pregnant or impregnating somebody at 17, or getting in trouble with the law, there's a network of family and financial support to mitigate the negative consequences of those actions.

Clearly, some people still fall through the cracks (like the Columbine kids), but it's more difficult to do so.

In cultures racked by poverty, it's almost the opposite. Poor decisions are the accepted norm. There is strong peer pressure against responsible decision-making. If I'd been a black person born in East St. Louis, and said I wanted to go to college and become a businessman, I might have family influences dissuading me from that course. My peers would regard me as a freak, a loser, and maybe even a sellout to the "man." They would be focused on any of the variety of self-destructive behaviors that afflict poverty-racked communities. It would require tremendous perseverance and character to overcome those challenges, even before trying to tackle the problems of passive institutional racism. A person of unremarkable character born into that environment is very unlikely to break the cycle of poverty.

And one bad decision is usually the end of any chance to get out. Get knocked up? It's over. Get arrested? It's over. Get hooked on drugs? Good night. There is no margin for error.

Spend any time around poor folks, and you're bound to end up banging your head against the wall at some of the decisions they make. I usually make responsible decisions, financially for example, but that's because I spent the first twenty years of my life having the value of money pounded into my head, and the last nine years learning the benefits of good choices and the consequences of bad ones.

Where you're born has a lot to do with the kind of values you'll have and the decisions you'll make as an adult, simply because of the prevailing attitudes of those around you. Sometimes the results are innocuous or considered a reasonable trade-off, for example a man in San Antonio who turns down a lucrative opportunity in Chicago because it would separate him from his extended family, which he prioritizes over a high salary. But too often those prevailing attitudes are incompatible with a functional society, and present internal barriers that keep people in poverty.

How do we overcome those?

[sickdsm]

Look, I'm not busting your chops because I have much of the same attitude as you about hard work being its own reward, but let me take a wild guess here - your Caucasian and most of the jobs you have in mind for $12/hour are with local companies that hire other people who are 'like you'. I'm not trying to imply that employers in your area are rampant racist or anything, but it’s a fact that most people like to be surrounded by people whom they share similar experiences with; therefore, your culture, your ethnicity, your reputation and your background make you attractive to employers who are readily willing and able to pay you that much money.

However, that is not the case in most inner-cities. Unemployment among blacks is typically much higher than other races at all age levels. African-American also typically make much less in their lifetimes that most other races. When you combine the effects of low-job skills and a employers market of employees to choose from, you get a plethora of jobs with low wages and little or no benefits.

So Instead of relishing in your good fortune, whether you appreciate it or not, and lamenting the plight of the poor, you should instead be encouraging the companies that you know who pay $12/hour to consider hiring people who come from different ethnicities and from diverse cultures. Providing benefits like on the job training, insurance, and family services can make a world of difference to someone who needs a helping hand. That's how you can really make a difference in someone’s life.


I live on the fucking indian reservation. Its not exactly like montana here. Go cry racism (which wasn't even brought up until you) somewhere else. If a white business owner isn't afraid to hire an indian, what makes you think he's prejudice of other races? Isn't that racism in itself to think like that?

Some of the jobs in the paper are with the county, others are putting together rafters, its not like there hard to find.



TPark: I actually agree on the child support thing but i think thats more commendable then an abortion.

[Kip Fanatic]

I come from a family of seven. I am the youngest of the seven. There is a huge difference from the first five children to the last two children. The first five my mother had were from her first husband. The guy was a loser (not because he's not my dad), but he was. He chose to drink and shoot up his paycheck. My mom left him and took those five children with her. She would have to get up really early in the morning to ride the bus to Four Season's Hotel to clean up rooms the guest would stay in. Know what happened after a year? She got promoted to being a supervisor. As soon as that happened she got herself and my brothers and sisters a car and a 3-bedroom house. All that with only a 8th grade high school education from Leal Middle School. Here's the sad part. My brothers and sisters did not have my mom there to push them to do good in school and to make the right choices because she was usually working 10 hour shifts. So, my brothers and sisters ended up getting bad grades, dropping out, and getting married at a young age. My mom tried her hardest to raise those five on her own and would always tell them to stay in school, but she couldn't keep her eyes on them at all times because of work.

[bigzak25]

In response to the child support, if you cant afford that, you couldn't afford the kid in the first place, therefore, keep the pantalones arriba brotha.


yes, because as we all know, TParks shit has never ever stunk, and he has never ever made a mistake in his whole life...wow...you are my idol.

again, i agree with your premise, if you cannot afford children, you need to be responsible with birthcontrol. However, the REALITY of the situation is that shit happens, the condom breaks, (fuckin planned parenthood shitty condoms, how ironic) or the pill is only 99.9% effective. Sure it's easy to abstain when nobody wants to fuck/makelove to you, but there are alot of people getting laid out there man.

as for idiotdan,


I have much of the same attitude as you about hard work being its own reward, but let me take a wild guess here - your Caucasian and most of the jobs you have in mind for $12/hour are with local companies that hire other people who are 'like you'. I'm not trying to imply that employers in your area are rampant racist or anything, (uhhh, yes you are, you idiot...) but it’s a fact that most people like to be surrounded by people whom they share similar experiences with;(like hard work for example?) therefore, your culture, your ethnicity, your reputation and your background make you attractive to employers who are readily willing and able to pay you that much money.

However, that is not the case in most inner-cities. Unemployment among blacks is typically much higher than other races at all age levels. African-American also typically make much less in their lifetimes that most other races. When you combine the effects of low-job skills [/B[B]](who's fault is that shit? that's right, the individuals fault) and a employers market of employees to choose from, (oh my gawd, the horror, the employers want the best/most qualified people to work for their company!) you get a plethora of jobs with low wages and little or no benefits. (yeah, no shit, which go to mostly highschool students and those people that handicapped themselves along the way)

So Instead of relishing in your good fortune, whether you appreciate it or not, and lamenting the plight of the poor, you should instead be encouraging the companies that you know who pay $12/hour to consider hiring people who come from different ethnicities and from diverse cultures. Providing benefits like on the job training, insurance, and family services can make a world of difference to someone who needs a helping hand. That's how you can really make a difference in someone’s life.


1st of all danny, what the fuck would you know about making a difference in someone's life. Please enlighten me, all of us, we're listening. You are part of the PROBLEM. You victimize people, you continue to victimize minorities by telling them it's not their fault, it's the system that's keeping you down. BULLSHIT. Far too many people of minority descent have made too much of themselves without pointing fingers at anyone else for ANYONE to make any EXCUSES. KEEP POINTING YOU FINGER at who you percieve to be the bad guy, and then walk over to the fuckin mirror chump. Why don't you EMPOWER PEOPLE to take control of their own lives, and STOP BEING VICTIMS and MAKE SOMETHING OF THEMSELVES. I'm not saying their aren't racist muthafuckers out there...obviously there are...but if an individual is hardworking and gives himself the tools to succeed, HE/SHE WILL SUCCEED. WAKE THE FUCK UP.

[batman2883]

Get off your high horse

[tlongII]

All I can say is education is the key and anybody can get an education if they want it bad enough.

[Hook Dem]

Second annual Labor day pilgramage to the lake this year w/ my GF's dad went a lot better this year. He loves to preach about everything especially his liberal politics. We got to discussing Katrina and N.O. and how the people there were so poor. Then it got to poor people in general and that struck a chord with me.

Some background info. I'm 25 and i farm along with my brother and dad. Me and my brother bust our ass's. I don't waste much money. I'm thrifty and don't go out to eat that much, I have my luxuries but there more along the lines of PS2 and a couple of games rather than the common snowmobiles, newer vehicles, etc...

So were talking about the poor people and he says there's nothing for them, no jobs are available and if they are they don't pay much. I called bullshit on that one. I know the job market is differnt everywhere but i can find anyone $12 an hour jobs like its nothing. That might seem like a teen summer job but the cost of living is so cheap here, a decent, medium sized house in a small town can be found under 20K. I know damn well that truck drivers are in high demand all over the country and the pay's not bad.

I also know that most americans are spoiled. The reason you see a lot of those fucktards on TV (not all) complaining about trying to support a family of 4 on a McDonalds job is beause its an easy job. People spend too much and don't think anything about it. Damn right i got jealous when i'd see kids at my HS driving corvettes and clasicc cars to school but there the same ones that are wasting money on hunting trips and new snowmobiles when they really can't afford it.

Her Dad agrees that i work hard and don't waste money but responded that he didn't think i ever had it rough (growing up we were pretty poor but that's my motivation). I had an ace in the hole to use on him but i bit my tongue.

I wanted to ask him if he's ever had it rough, which i knew he was poor before. When he answered yes i was going to ask him if that was before or after he wasted 6 years of his life in his 20's backpacking through europe.
I do have compassion for poor people, but only ones who have it rough through other circumstances, health problems, kids health problems, child support, etc...

I may never make alot in one year, but I probably will be well off when i'm older. And to me that's what matters, i'd much rather be 55-60 and taking it easy then working through my arthritis thinking i had fun when i was younger. I don't want to be Brooksie or Red.

The ONLY thing that stops these people from setting out and making a life is the stubborness to leave what is comfortable. I'm not arguing that part is tough but i'm arguing that's all thats' stopping them. There was an article in the local paper about the oil fields in western ND can't find workers, $25 an hour, 82 hour week, next week off. Its not a 9-5 job but hey, You do what you have to do, don't you? $200 should get you a bus ticket from anywhere and a week's motel to start you a new life. My GF's step dad i admire a lot, he was dirt poor growing up a white kid in a black ghetto in Chicago. He was a bigger guy and learned to box out of neccessity. He saw an ad for a Univerisity in North Dakota in the nutritional department. Free housing and free food, they want to test different foods and see what they help/hurt.
He took a one way bus not knowing a soul up there and made a life out of it.

Not much has changed in America in regards to success, if you work hard you can make it a go.
Nicely written article!!!!!!!

[Kip Fanatic]

Part II
She then meets my dad. He is no prize at the time. He's a guy from Mexico with a 3rd grade education. He had to get out of school in the 3rd grade because his dad died when he was 9 years old. His dad (my grandpa) was one of those rebels who would steal from the rich and trains to provide for his family. Well, his work cuaght up to him because one night while stealing he died while trying to get away. Apparently he fell off his horse and got stepped on, which caused him to die. So my grandma is left alone with eight kids. So she starts to sow clothing to trade for food and whatever else her eight kids need. Meanwhile, my dad and his siblings start working on farms in Mexico to help my grandma. At the age of 16 my dad decides he needs something better for him and his mom. So he crosses the border illegally and comes to San Antonio to work. He starts to work here with a man who too is from Mexico in the construction (home) business. He meets my mom and they get married. Of course none of my brothers or sisters like this idea and give my dad a hard time. However, my dad doesn't mind because he is all in love with my mom. Well, he sees they aren't making it too good so they move to Florida because of my mom's friend tells them that the orange business is paying good over there. They stay there for one year only because the money isn't that good. Before they head back to TX, my dad had saved up money to take all five kids and my mom to Disney World and they all enjoy the Disney experience. Well, they head down to Houston and my dad gets this job at this power plant, which doesn't last long because my dad has his knee broken because of an explosion at the plant. My dad sits out of work for about a few months and heads back to SA. He goes back to the construction business for like two years. He decides he needs to go on his own because this construction business is something he is good at. He does and starts making pretty good change for a guy from Mexico with a 3rd grade education. My mom and dad have my sister and he buys my mom and now six kids a house on the South Side of town, which at the time is new. They then have me. Well, he sees he is making really good money and tells my mom to quit her job at Ft. Sam Houston. She does. Well, while all this is happening my mother's first five kids are all but gone from the house living with their husbands and wives going from job to job. Why? Because they never had that authority figure there to help them stay on the straight and narrow road. To this day they still have a hard time with their bills and stuff. Thank God my brothers and siters and their families are doing good. They could be better, but God has provided for them and will continue to. Meanwhile, my dad buys five acres in a town outside of SA and builds my mom her dream house with a huge basketball court for me and horse stables for him. Oh yeah. He built it debt-free. No bank to pay. Its all theirs. Paid in full. Now they have recently bought an acre in Poteet as investment property and are close to selling that already. On top of that, they just finished building their second home (better than the first) on an acre and a half outside of here in SA. Again debt-free. Paid in full. His trucks? Paid in full. Why? He learned a valuable lesson when he first started out running his own business. He had to file bankruptcy (spelled correct?). From that point he never depended on credit or credit cards. He only depended on cash. He instilled that in my sister and I. I am the same way now. I only have one credit card and will not spend money I don't have. My mom was there for my sister and I throughout all of our school years and we graduated (first of the seven) from high school and went to college. My sister and I are doing good (thanks to God). I wish my brothers and sisters had my mom to keep that close eye on them to keep them in school. They didn't though and that's why I BELIEVE they turned out to be a little different. However, I know God is going to bless me to the point where I will be able to pay off all of my brothers and sisters debt and have money for my nephews and nieces to go to college. My point. There are a lot of reasons why people become poor. Too many to list. Hard work pays though. Ask my mom and dad.
I hope I didn't bore anyone.

[tlongII]

Part II
She then meets my dad. He is no prize at the time. He's a guy from Mexico with a 3rd grade education. He had to get out of school in the 3rd grade because his dad died when he was 9 years old. His dad (my grandpa) was one of those rebels who would steal from the rich and trains to provide for his family. Well, his work cuaght up to him because one night while stealing he died while trying to get away. Apparently he fell off his horse and got stepped on, which caused him to die. So my grandma is left alone with eight kids. So she starts to sow clothing to trade for food and whatever else her eight kids need. Meanwhile, my dad and his siblings start working on farms in Mexico to help my grandma. At the age of 16 my dad decides he needs something better for him and his mom. So he crosses the border illegally and comes to San Antonio to work. He starts to work here with a man who too is from Mexico in the construction (home) business. He meets my mom and they get married. Of course none of my brothers or sisters like this idea and give my dad a hard time. However, my dad doesn't mind because he is all in love with my mom. Well, he sees they aren't making it too good so they move to Florida because of my mom's friend tells them that the orange business is paying good over there. They stay there for one year only because the money isn't that good. Before they head back to TX, my dad had saved up money to take all five kids and my mom to Disney World and they all enjoy the Disney experience. Well, they head down to Houston and my dad gets this job at this power plant, which doesn't last long because my dad has his knee broken because of an explosion at the plant. My dad sits out of work for about a few months and heads back to SA. He goes back to the construction business for like two years. He decides he needs to go on his own because this construction business is something he is good at. He does and starts making pretty good change for a guy from Mexico with a 3rd grade education. My mom and dad have my sister and he buys my mom and now six kids a house on the South Side of town, which at the time is new. They then have me. Well, he sees he is making really good money and tells my mom to quit her job at Ft. Sam Houston. She does. Well, while all this is happening my mother's first five kids are all but gone from the house living with their husbands and wives going from job to job. Why? Because they never had that authority figure there to help them stay on the straight and narrow road. To this day they still have a hard time with their bills and stuff. Thank God my brothers and siters and their families are doing good. They could be better, but God has provided for them and will continue to. Meanwhile, my dad buys five acres in a town outside of SA and builds my mom her dream house with a huge basketball court for me and horse stables for him. Oh yeah. He built it debt-free. No bank to pay. Its all theirs. Paid in full. Now they have recently bought an acre in Poteet as investment property and are close to selling that already. On top of that, they just finished building their second home (better than the first) on an acre and a half outside of here in SA. Again debt-free. Paid in full. His trucks? Paid in full. Why? He learned a valuable lesson when he first started out running his own business. He had to file bankruptcy (spelled correct?). From that point he never depended on credit or credit cards. He only depended on cash. He instilled that in my sister and I. I am the same way now. I only have one credit card and will not spend money I don't have. My mom was there for my sister and I throughout all of our school years and we graduated (first of the seven) from high school and went to college. My sister and I are doing good (thanks to God). I wish my brothers and sisters had my mom to keep that close eye on them to keep them in school. They didn't though and that's why I BELIEVE they turned out to be a little different. However, I know God is going to bless me to the point where I will be able to pay off all of my brothers and sisters debt and have money for my nephews and nieces to go to college. My point. There are a lot of reasons why people become poor. Too many to list. Hard work pays though. Ask my mom and dad.
I hope I didn't bore anyone.

Nice story.

[bigzak25]

Great post Kip, I admire your Dad. :tu

[Nbadan]

1st of all danny, what the fuck would you know about making a difference in someone's life. Please enlighten me, all of us, we're listening. You are part of the PROBLEM. You victimize people, you continue to victimize minorities by telling them it's not their fault, it's the system that's keeping you down. BULLSHIT. Far too many people of minority descent have made too much of themselves without pointing fingers at anyone else for ANYONE to make any EXCUSES. KEEP POINTING YOU FINGER at who you percieve to be the bad guy, and then walk over to the fuckin mirror chump. Why don't you EMPOWER PEOPLE to take control of their own lives, and STOP BEING VICTIMS and MAKE SOMETHING OF THEMSELVES. I'm not saying their aren't racist muthafuckers out there...obviously there are...but if an individual is hardworking and gives himself the tools to succeed, HE/SHE WILL SUCCEED. WAKE THE FUCK UP.

Why listen now? You have never paid attention to any of my posts before. And no I am not playing the ethnic victim card as you suggest, although if you've never been a minority in America WTF do you know about it? All you know is what white-Christian-Republican pundits tell you to think because its become quite obvious to me overtime that you have no opinion of your own.

Never have and never will.

Contrary to your beliefs, poor people aren't self-empowered by being condescendingly spoken too about their work ethic by those who have never walked a mile in their shoes. This only serves to give them a lesser opinion of themselves and feeds on stereotypes that aren't true.

What poor people really need is help.

They need to know that they have a support structure behind them - it takes a village to raise a child, they need to know that they have responsible child-care if they need it. People need to know that if they or their kids get sick, they will have insurance to help defray the costs. People need to know that if they work hard their efforts will be rewarded, no matter their education level or skin color. People need to know that they will send their kids to quality schools with certified teachers and adequate resources to help end the cycle of poverty.

They don’t need Politically correct rants by long-winded gas bags trying to lecture them about self-empowerment, especially when most likely they don’t even know what the term means.

By the way, I grew up poor and today my household income is nearly in the 6-digit catagory.

[tlongII]

Why listen now? You have never paid attention to any of my posts before. And no I am not playing the ethnic victim card as you suggest, although if you've never been a minority in America WTF do you know about it? All you know is what white-Christian-Republican pundits tell you to think because its become quite obvious to me overtime that you have no opinion of your own.

Never have and never will.

Contrary to your beliefs, poor people aren't self-empowered by being condescendingly spoken too about their work ethic by those who have never walked a mile in their shoes. This only serves to give them a lesser opinion of themselves and feeds on stereotypes that aren't true.

What poor people really need is help.

They need to know that they have a support structure behind them - it takes a village to raise a child, they need to know that they have responsible child-care if they need it. People need to know that if they or their kids get sick, they will have insurance to help defray the costs. People need to know that if they work hard their efforts will be rewarded, no matter their education level or skin color. People need to know that they will send their kids to quality schools with certified teachers and adequate resources to help end the cycle of poverty.

They don’t need Politically correct rants by long-winded gas bags trying to lecture them about self-empowerment, especially when most likely they don’t even know what the term means.

By the way, I grew up poor and today my household income is nearly in the 6-digit catagory.

Mine is too if you count the digits to the right of the decimal point.

[batman2883]

damn this is a serious thread...

[Kori Ellis]

And no I am not playing the ethnic victim card as you suggest, although if you've never been a minority in America WTF do you know about it? All you know is what white-Christian-Republican pundits tell you to think because its become quite obvious to me overtime that you have no opinion of your own.

Psst.. Zak is Mexican.

[tlongII]

Psst.. Zak is Mexican.


Yes, but he is a big Mexican so it doesn't count.

[Kori Ellis]

Kip - that was a terrific story.

:tu to your Dad.

[Nbadan]

Psst.. Zak is Mexican.

Hispanics have had moderate income success for some time, especially in SA. If he's not older than 35, then I really doubt Bigsack understands what it truely means to be poor, disadvantaged, and ethnically challenged.

[Nbadan]

live on the fucking indian reservation. Its not exactly like montana here. Go cry racism (which wasn't even brought up until you) somewhere else. If a white business owner isn't afraid to hire an indian, what makes you think he's prejudice of other races? Isn't that racism in itself to think like that?

:rolleyes

If you've ever been to Montana you would know that it is home of the largest Indian reservation in the country - The Crow.

[MannyIsGod]

You can always take a look at individual stories and situations in order to gain whatever perspective you want on any group of people.

I can pull out the story of one black man and paint you a picture of absolute and complete racism in every facet of his life. I can pull out a random woman and show you how she was denied opportunities because of her gender. at every point in her life.

Or, I can look at a person who has overcome those obstacles or has never had to face them on the road to success and paint you a picture where there is no racism, and the only reason people of color or poverty suffer is due to their own chioces.

The true real situation lies inbetween both of those extremes and you will never find it by using token observations. The trends that are seen across the entire specturm of society tell you much more of the story.

The poor are secondary citizens in any society based on capitalism because in capitalism money is power and the poor lack that money and therefor lack that power.

There are individuals out of every segment of society that has the tools to succeed regardless of what roadblocks are in their place. In other words, regardless of who comprises the poor there will always be some people who are able to drag themselves up by their bootstraps.

But that in no way means that is a likely or reachable solution for everyone in that situation by any means. So sitting there and saying the only reason people are poor is becasue they choose to be is never going to be correct.

If you have two groups - we'll call them group A and group B - and you place them in indentical situations where all things are equal both should have an equal number of people who are success full.

The percentage of successfull people out of Group A and Group B should be exactly the same if all things are equal. Now, if you place Group A in a worse situation, but one that is not impossible to rise from, you will see a lower amount of people succeed.

In order to achieve the same level of success the makeup of A will have to work harder than the people in B because they are in a more difficult situation. That does not mean they are in an impossible situation, just a more difficult one.

In a perfect world, all of humanity would have the tools to suceed and would realize that they often control more of the environment than they are aware. But we don't live in a perfect world, and if you place people in a situation that is less than ideal there will be a greater number of failures.

[Nbadan]

"That poverty has roots in a history of racial discrimination, which cut off generations from the opportunity of America. We have a duty to confront this poverty with bold action.

"So let us restore all that we have cherished from yesterday, and let us rise above the legacy of inequality.

- George W. Bush, in yesterday's speech.

[TDMVPDPOY]

There is nothing wrong being poor, imo as long you are happy with life and dont judge others weither they are rich or poor, at the end of the day they are still a human person just like everyone. Since sum of you guyz are talkin about ur families struggle ups n down i share sum story about my family.

Back in vietnam, my grandparents were very rich, they were mainly fisherman and own a couple of boats, this was b4 the vietnam war started, they had workers workin for them, even hired family members to work in the family house as housekeepers, hired neighboors to work for them. The problem here was that they were so riched they wasted the money on gambling expecially the parents of my grandparents. My grandfather was a fisherman, while my grandmother was a seller at the market (she would get the fish and go upto the city SAIGON (hochiminh city) which is like a 4hr drive or ride :D to sell the fish at a higher price. Then durin sum time they had my father n his 2 brothers. Well my grandfather enrolled into the army and he was on duty. He came back hearing rumors that his wife was cheatin on him which was properly false imo since alot of ppl were jealousy of them doin very well. Well he committed suicide lettin off a grenade in the house, this was very sad for my father expecially as he was very young that time at around 8-10yrs old his the second oldest.

My fathers grandparents wasted the fortune left over on gambling, just freakn overnite become a wealthy family to the poorest family, till this day my father is still askin wtf took the fortune that was meant to be left over for the 3 brothers. The sad story about this is that my father had to work and take care of his grandparents and his auntie n uncle who had like 8 children each. My dad was the bread provider for the house. HIs uncle who use to work for the former govenment was sent to rehab for 2 years and his auntie doesnt know shit since all she did was eat and sleep all day, so its 3 families he has to take care of. His brother was sent to live on the mothers side of the family, the youngest brother of the 3 was sold away for adoption. Another sad part of this part of the story is that the mothers side family of the story is rumor to have taken the fortune yet they didnt bring up the 3 brothers, instead they took in the eldest brother and adopted sum kid down the street, till this day my father is mad at them for adopting a kid down the street instead of him or the younger brother. The younger brother till this day doesnt care what happens with any of the families besides the family who adopted him.

Well my father then enrolled into the army when the war was breakin out, by the time he was ready to go to war the war was over eventually, while the older brother took off immagrating to USA. Then my father met mum who was from a educated strict family from teh countryside who resided to the south. At first my fathers mother rejected the idea of havin them gettin mairried since they lookd down on my mothers side of the familiy even though they were faily well off compared to my fathers side of the family. Well they ended up gettin married. My mother told me she was treated like trash by the grandparent (fathers side), so both went to the countryside and worked on my mums parents farm, they had enough of this struggling and decided to fled vietnam.

Being refugees on palau, they were pretty smart business ppl, they would get their food and money from families transfer to them to buy food and resell them at a higher price, During that time they had me and after 3 years migrated to australia.

Being in australia, we were pretty well off, met up with other family members etc, and the previous employees of the family paid back and helped us. Even though till today we dont have our own house, at least we dont look down on ppl. Even though sumtimes we struggle but we still remember our families roots sendin money back home, and taken a few family trips back to vietnam. I wouldnt say we are rich but australia just like america is a land of opportunity and dreams.

My family dont really communicate with our cousins because since they made it rich they judge ppl and look down on ppl. If it wasnt for my mother and father who lended them sum capital to buy a house or a wedding they wouldnt be what they are today. My mum who is a good samaritan always send over a few grand back to vietnam, to her family, and the uncle and aunties family who have 8 children each. Hell the land they are livin on now is meant to be for my father, he gave it away to them when he fled vietnam since he doesnt need it, and they themselves look down on my parents since we are doin crap compared to their sons and daughters who are also in australia, (my cousins) they dont or rarely send money back to help them but only when my mum tells them. Without my mum as the mediator financially they would still be livin in wooden houses or beggin on teh streets.

A few years ago the whole family went back to vietnam, my mothers side of the family is freakn rich as, they sold there land etc to buy houses and started a business etc. Well the funny thing is we came back with the whole family, the fathers side of the family think we are filthy rich or strike jackpot. Hell even my fathers mother side came askin for financial benifit, the funny thing is we dont even know wtf they are, and my dad went skitz in front of them when they came back to beg for financial help, this was my father "you guyz didnt even fed me a single rice nor took care of me or the younger brother, yet you took in sum kid down the street instead of us, and now you have the face to come here askin for money"!!! Hell we had to give them money since they didnt leave my mums parents house since they are retired and very compassion ppl, gave them a few dollars and told them to get lost. That whole trip was very funny, father went to his mums house and went skitz at them and askin them where is the family fortune left over for him n his brothers. Hell he even went nutz on his auntie tellin her ur a good for nothing person, you dont know shit about life or makin money, all you know todo is eat/sleep and swear thats all your good at. Then he went nutz on his uncles sons and daughters, you got rich brothers why dont you ask them for money instead of askin my wife for money all the time, you think we are filthy rich or sumshit. Then a few dayz pass my uncle called over to check hows things, the auntie told him everything what happen and the grandma who brought up the eldest brother also explained what happen, all he said was that his brother has every right to fute at you guyz just let it go in and out the other ear. They were pretty happy when my family left lmao.

The day they dont stop askin my mum for money or the day my mum wakes up and stop being compassionate to these ppl, they will continue to be a burden to us. Just this year, my mum help them bought 2 boats to start up their own business, and what do we get out of it, we still get the crap talkin about us what we are doin in australia, evey freakn family member is lookin down on my family, and that is why i hate most of them. My parents mite be gambling addicts and have domestic fightz now and then, but it doesnt give the other family members to go spread the news about it or the time my bro was hook on smack. I mite be jealous at other members of the family doin well and stuff, but i dont go around spreaing news that is confidential to the family. Seriously my mum doesnt get the credit she deserves from both sides of the family, Ive always told her to stop sendin money and shit to these assholes the day you stop we can probaly afford to buy our own house. Oh yeh forgot to tell you guyz, my uncles and aunties (fathers side) treat my mum like shit good for nothing person, my siblings like trash, in other words they disrepect us becuase we are poor, they are 2 face ppl imo, they see us they keep silent but when we leave they start to dish the shit out. Hell even my dads older brother treat my mom/siblins like shit, thats why i hate these 2 face ppl, after you help them they dont ever return the favour. I remember one time my mum had enough to put a deposit to buy a house, she ask them to lend 50-100k, hell they didnt bother answering or offering any financial help. Now we know who foes and the enemy. Its been 1-2 years now since my mum and siblings have step foot into their new homes since we are not welcome for no reason. I pray everyday these assholes die in hell, and i win a jackpot and give the best to my mum. They didnt give us there new address details or phone numbers, i had to ask their children for it.

Then one day, one of the relatives came over for a trip, and saw how my family was struggling, even though we gave her money over the years, first thing on her face was that she didnt wanna step into my house. Now i feel that she has disrepected me and my family. Was hopin that when she goes back to her country she will tell her brothers n sisters stop askin for money.

Ok enough venting from me.

[T Park]

i think thats more commendable then an abortion

point taken and I agree.

[T Park]

Sure it's easy to abstain when nobody wants to fuck/makelove to you, but there are alot of people getting laid out there man.


Typical childish, "Yeah well its easy to abstain when you cant laid loser hahaha"

So, because your good looking, you cant abstain from having sex??

Uh,,,,, ok.

Makes NO sense....

[AFE7FATMAN]

Second annual Labor day pilgramage to the lake this year w/ my GF's dad went a lot better this year. He loves to preach about everything especially his liberal politics. We got to discussing Katrina and N.O. and how the people there were so poor. Then it got to poor people in general and that struck a chord with me.

Some background info. I'm 25 and i farm along with my brother and dad. Me and my brother bust our ass's. I don't waste much money. I'm thrifty and don't go out to eat that much, I have my luxuries but there more along the lines of PS2 and a couple of games rather than the common snowmobiles, newer vehicles, etc...

So were talking about the poor people and he says there's nothing for them, no jobs are available and if they are they don't pay much. I called bullshit on that one. I know the job market is differnt everywhere but i can find anyone $12 an hour jobs like its nothing. That might seem like a teen summer job but the cost of living is so cheap here, a decent, medium sized house in a small town can be found under 20K. I know damn well that truck drivers are in high demand all over the country and the pay's not bad.

I also know that most americans are spoiled. The reason you see a lot of those fucktards on TV (not all) complaining about trying to support a family of 4 on a McDonalds job is beause its an easy job. People spend too much and don't think anything about it. Damn right i got jealous when i'd see kids at my HS driving corvettes and clasicc cars to school but there the same ones that are wasting money on hunting trips and new snowmobiles when they really can't afford it.

Her Dad agrees that i work hard and don't waste money but responded that he didn't think i ever had it rough (growing up we were pretty poor but that's my motivation). I had an ace in the hole to use on him but i bit my tongue.

I wanted to ask him if he's ever had it rough, which i knew he was poor before. When he answered yes i was going to ask him if that was before or after he wasted 6 years of his life in his 20's backpacking through europe.
I do have compassion for poor people, but only ones who have it rough through other circumstances, health problems, kids health problems, child support, etc...

I may never make alot in one year, but I probably will be well off when i'm older. And to me that's what matters, i'd much rather be 55-60 and taking it easy then working through my arthritis thinking i had fun when i was younger. I don't want to be Brooksie or Red.

The ONLY thing that stops these people from setting out and making a life is the stubborness to leave what is comfortable. I'm not arguing that part is tough but i'm arguing that's all thats' stopping them. There was an article in the local paper about the oil fields in western ND can't find workers, $25 an hour, 82 hour week, next week off. Its not a 9-5 job but hey, You do what you have to do, don't you? $200 should get you a bus ticket from anywhere and a week's motel to start you a new life. My GF's step dad i admire a lot, he was dirt poor growing up a white kid in a black ghetto in Chicago. He was a bigger guy and learned to box out of neccessity. He saw an ad for a Univerisity in North Dakota in the nutritional department. Free housing and free food, they want to test different foods and see what they help/hurt.
He took a one way bus not knowing a soul up there and made a life out of it.

Not much has changed in America in regards to success, if you work hard you can make it a go.


Great Article.

I am White, my wife is Mexican, we are in our 60's
I mention this only because I don't want to read anymore BS about race,
although one race may have more people, that are poor, than others.

We lived in Minnesota (Duluth) for two years when I was in the Air Force.

Without a f'n doubt We found Minnesota to be the lease prejudiced
state we have lived in.

We have lived in Minnesota, ND, Ohio, WVa, Ky, Colorado, California, Kansas, (Forgot Honolulu)
Washington and Louisiana. We currenly live in San Antonio Texas.

Overseas: France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Vietnam, Mexico, Australia

The lease prejudiced was France (right on the German border)
* White people do not have a lock on being prejudiced.*


The only reason we are not living in Duluth is because while I love the
snow, I do not like to shovel it and I hate the extreme cold.

I would like to suggest that you take (One Year) I would normally suggest
after HS Graduation and Backpack in Europe/or just Have FUN.

You may not reach 55 and If you do, your health may not allow you
to go snowmobiling. Body Surfing, fishing, etc. If you don't have
a little carefree fun while you are young. You may become a Old man
with a regret.

My Grandfather-He was Very Poor. Orphaned at 9, raised 7 kids,
Worked at the nickle plant and on the farm. Retired when he was 70.
BTW, about your GF father being a liberal. I can remember when liberal
was not a dirty word. and for others that my read this post Republlican
does not always mean conservative.

Added
Poor is Poor
Some get out of it some don't
Some can, Some Can't
and some won't, and some
like to just say "Pity Me"

Rich is Rich
Some use the $ and help others
Some spend it wisely, and leave it to their kids.
SOme like to brag about how much they
have.
Some use it only to get more.
and some simply piss it down the drain.

If you take can goods and deliver them to poor people, please take them a can opener and don't make it electric.

I agree if you work hard you can have a nice life, maybe not rich, but nice.

[The sone]

Get off your high horse


ok which one of you bastards got my horse high?


just thought id lighten the mood...sheesh :depressed

[spurs=bling]

BRAVO SICK!!!!



I agree with everything but the child support.

In response to the child support, if you cant afford that, you couldn't afford the kid in the first place, therefore, keep the pantalones arriba brotha.
:tu

[boutons]

"if you cant afford that, you couldn't afford the kid in the first place"

So a family split into 2 households is just as affordable as one household?

A family living under one roof has lower living costs than split under two roofs, typically causing both parents to have a lower standard of living after divorce. ie, affording kids under one roof maybe just comfortable, but affording them under another roof can be very uncomfortable.

[sickdsm]

- George W. Bush, in yesterday's speech.


Since when do you give a damn what W says?

[sickdsm]

:rolleyes

If you've ever been to Montana you would know that it is home of the largest Indian reservation in the country - The Crow.


Most Populous Indian Reservations, 2000
Reservation Population1
Navajo Nation (Ariz.-N.M.-Utah) 175,228
Cherokee (Okla.) 104,482
Creek (Okla.) 77,253
Lumbee (N.C.) 62,327
Choctaw (Okla.) 39,984
Cook Inlet (Alaska) 35,972
Chickasaw (Okla.) 32,372
Calista (Alaska) 20,353
United Houma Nation (La.) 15,305
Sealaska (Alaska) 15,059
Pine Ridge (S.D.-Neb.) 14,484
Doyon (Alaska) 14,128
Kiowa-Comanche-Apache–Fort Sill Apache (Okla.) 13,045
Fort Apache (Ariz.) 11,854
Citizen Band Potawatomi Nation–Absentee Shawnee (Okla.) 10,617
Gila River (Ariz.) 10,578
Cheyenne/Arapaho (Okla.) 10,310
Tohono O'odham (Ariz.) 9,794
Osage (Okla.) 9,209
Rosebud (S.D.) 9,165
San Carlos (Ariz.) 9,065
Blackfeet (Mont.) 8,684
Yakama (Wash.) 8,193
Turtle Mountain (N.D.) 8,043
Flathead (Mont.) 7,883


1. Population listed includes only the American Indian and Alaska Native population alone or in combination with one or more races. Total population of reservation, which includes non-Indians, is not given. A reservation's total population is sometimes significantly larger than Indian population.


Or better yet.

http://www.citizensalliance.org/Reservation%20Demographics/Reservation%20population%20by%20states.htm


Regardless which data you bend to support your views, pick any state you want and you get my drift, i wasn't singling out montana alone.

I can google too, but that must be because i'm white, right?

[sickdsm]

Look, I'm not busting your chops because I have much of the same attitude as you about hard work being its own reward, but let me take a wild guess here - your Caucasian and most of the jobs you have in mind for $12/hour are with local companies that hire other people who are 'like you'. I'm not trying to imply that employers in your area are rampant racist or anything, but it’s a fact that most people like to be surrounded by people whom they share similar experiences with; therefore, your culture, your ethnicity, your reputation and your background make you attractive to employers who are readily willing and able to pay you that much money.

However, that is not the case in most inner-cities. Unemployment among blacks is typically much higher than other races at all age levels. African-American also typically make much less in their lifetimes that most other races. When you combine the effects of low-job skills and a employers market of employees to choose from, you get a plethora of jobs with low wages and little or no benefits.

So Instead of relishing in your good fortune, whether you appreciate it or not, and lamenting the plight of the poor, you should instead be encouraging the companies that you know who pay $12/hour to consider hiring people who come from different ethnicities and from diverse cultures. Providing benefits like on the job training, insurance, and family services can make a world of difference to someone who needs a helping hand. That's how you can really make a difference in someone’s life.

Since your throwing assumptions at me, how about you? I'm guessing that you either went to college or have a desky/management job, more likely the former. When's the last time, other than a summer job, that you acually had to physicly work, hard? Because when we're talking about the poor with some of the stories we have here, its not very likely for someone to be able to support themselves long enough to make it through school. Have you done any hiring lately for physical work type jobs? Do you KNOW what the scenario is? Its hard as HELL finding a hard/good worker. Employers, at least some of the more smaller, successful ones have resorted to paying higher wages in order to find a better employee. I find it laughable that you think that racism is above the net profit. Hell, i mean, even us rich racist republicans (we're all rich and racist, right?) wouldn't mind a hard worker even if he had an I love Bin Laden tatoo and a Make 9-11 a National holiday bumper sticker.

But the most ironic thing when you mention jobs and racism is that road construction happans EVERYWHERE. Its some damn good money out here. A lot of girls do it for the pay but more so they can get a nice tan. Now i know that most of those girls end up doing little more than driving the pilot car or holding the slow sign. But your going to tell me that these guys won't hire a strong black man but will pay these women to hold a sign?

[bigzak25]

Why listen now? You have never paid attention to any of my posts before. And no I am not playing the ethnic victim card as you suggest, although if you've never been a minority in America WTF do you know about it? All you know is what white-Christian-Republican pundits tell you to think because its become quite obvious to me overtime that you have no opinion of your own.

Never have and never will.

Contrary to your beliefs, poor people aren't self-empowered by being condescendingly spoken too about their work ethic by those who have never walked a mile in their shoes. This only serves to give them a lesser opinion of themselves and feeds on stereotypes that aren't true.

What poor people really need is help.

They need to know that they have a support structure behind them - it takes a village to raise a child, they need to know that they have responsible child-care if they need it. People need to know that if they or their kids get sick, they will have insurance to help defray the costs. People need to know that if they work hard their efforts will be rewarded, no matter their education level or skin color. People need to know that they will send their kids to quality schools with certified teachers and adequate resources to help end the cycle of poverty.

They don’t need Politically correct rants by long-winded gas bags trying to lecture them about self-empowerment, especially when most likely they don’t even know what the term means.

By the way, I grew up poor and today my household income is nearly in the 6-digit catagory.


yes you are playing the ethnic victim card, it's your modus operandi, and apprently, so is denial...

and yes, i've never been a minority in america. bitch you don't know me. but i'm not suprised you pull judgements out of your ass like so many of your viewpoints. i'm 3/4ths mex, born and raised in early childhood on the westside of san antonio...was a baby and small child in the courts...alizan apache...had a grandma that lived their her entire life and another that lives off of zazamora. my grandparents on my dad's side were fruit pickers from mexico. my 1/4 white blood comes from my grandpa from new jersey that had some strong fuckin white blood in him and his ass was hitchiking to and from austin to provide for his family of 3 children after serving in korea...anything else you want to know einstein?

i was priveledged enough to be raised by my mom and stepdad who was an over authoritative puerto rican, but who was a provider and moved to northcentral sa in the 5th grade after a year on the southside by kelly afb in the edgewood isd. which i taught at as a substitute teacher and permanant sub for a few months after college. i've actually been in the shit and tried to make a difference and not just talked about it you schmuck.

why are YOU SUCH A RACIST against white christians...did one of them hold you down your whole life? apparently not...how come you didn't make excuses...how come you are now enjoying a high salary...is it because whitey helped you out...cuz God knows your poor ignorant ass couldn't have made it by yourself, or without your precious village.

Bullshit. It takes ONE caring, loving parent or guardian to RAISE A CHILD. Granted it's easier with two...granted it's easier with a whole supportive FAMILY...but stop with the bullshit excuses. Your the one that's a fuckin sheep, and i've never and would never speak to someone other than an idiot in a condescending tone. What part of empowering people to bring themselves out of their self made prisons don't you understand. I wouldn't berate, i would inspire. Get a clue.

PEOPLE, ALL PEOPLE, NEED TO LEARN TO HELP THEMSELVES AND NOT DEPEND ON ANYBODY BUT THE MAN UPSTAIRS. I don't expect your ass to snap to that fact right away, but in due time my brother, i have faith in you, believe it or not.


Hispanics have had moderate income success for some time, especially in SA. If he's not older than 35, then I really doubt Bigsack understands what it truely means to be poor, disadvantaged, and ethnically challenged.

i think i've adressed your ignorance here as well...are you racist against hispanics too...oh i'm sorry...just the ones 35 and under...cool, understood.