Hoops Critic Top 50 of all-time

[JohnnyMax]

http://www.hoopscritic.com/category/hoopscritic-hot-50/

[spursistan]

Lebron ahead of Timmy..:rollin :rollin

[Killakobe81]

Lebron ahead of Timmy..:rollin :rollin

Peak? Yes. Career ...hell no! but James is gaining ... James already has what 6 finals on his resume with 2 rings? Yes 5-1 is better than 2-4. But James still has some mileage left on his tires.

I would actually have issue with Bird. Peak? Bird, may edge Tim but career wise hard to argue Bird has had a better career than Tim. What criteria are they using anyways?

[I. Hustle]

Peak? Yes. Career ...hell no! but James is gaining ... James already has what 6 finals on his resume with 2 rings? Yes 5-1 is better than 2-4. But James still has some mileage left on his tires.

I would actually have issue with Bird. Peak? Bird, may edge Tim but career wise hard to argue Bird has had a better career than Tim. What criteria are they using anyways?



Market
Sellability
jersey sales
endorsements

oh and nostalgia

[Galileo]

Lebron ahead of Timmy..:rollin :rollin

One item that has not been adequately addressed here or elsewhere: Lebron's playoff stats are inflated form playing in the Easter conference, while Tim's are contracted. This is a major factor that must be quantified. I think its a joke to rate Lebron above Tim.

[da_suns_fan]

Lebron ahead of Timmy..:rollin :rollin

Who's "Timmy"?

[da_suns_fan]

Do defensive Spurs fans REALLY think Tim Duncan is a better basketball player than Lebron James?

[NikosChelsea7]

Who's "Timmy"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WFxy2jJgkA

[da_suns_fan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WFxy2jJgkA

Was he that "boring" guy?

[DMC]

Was he that "boring" guy?
He excited Dale with that three.

[Galileo]

Here's a basic stat to give you an idea of how much better the West is than the East, and how it skews perceptions of Duncan and Lebron:

Duncan playoff series record:

versus west; 29-11
versus east; 5-1

Lebron playoff series record:

versus west; 2-4
versus east; 23-4

[Kool Bob Love]

Do defensive Spurs fans REALLY think Tim Duncan is a better basketball player than Lebron James?

We don't think it, that's a fact.

[Mitch]

Timothy at #8 is about right, maybe #7 is better. Can't comment on the rest, but Kobe is too high.

[daledondale]

Lebron too high in the list, Karl Malone too high, Dirk too high..shitty rank tbh.

[RD2191]

Do defensive Spurs fans REALLY think Tim Duncan is a better basketball player than Lebron James?
I'd take a prime Tim over a prime Lebron any day of the week.

[djohn2oo8]

I'd take a prime Tim over a prime Lebron any day of the week.

:lmao

[DAF86]

:lmao

How's that lmao worthy? :lol

[AlexJones]

:lol who the fuck is Larry Bird tbh

[TrainOfThought5]

I'd take a prime Tim over a prime Lebron any day of the week.

Depending on the pieces around both of them i think this is a leit argument. People forget just how good Prime Tim was. His leadership poise and intangibles stewarded a lot of champion-ships for them. What can you say about Lebron?

[daslicer]

Prime Duncan had a ridiculous streak of 30-10 games in the '03 playoffs that broke Wilt Chamberlain's record. He also won with no all-stars on his team in '03 something Lebron has never done. Lebron came close in '10 in pulling that off but choked in the Celtics series.

[HemisfairArena]

Kobrick in the top 10?,,,,please stop,,,.why not put Tracy McGrady in the top 10 also?

[Spurtacular]

Bird is GOAT, imo....

But any list that has Magic ahead of Bird is hacky. Bird was head and shoulders ahead of Magic through 86.

[Chris]

I'd take a prime Tim over a prime Lebron any day of the week.

:tu

[baseline bum]

Who's "Timmy"?

Your daddy son

[SupremeGuy]

I'd take a prime Tim over a prime Lebron any day of the week.This.

[namlook]

Bird is GOAT, imo....

But any list that has Magic ahead of Bird is hacky. Bird was head and shoulders ahead of Magic through 86.

The historical consensus is Magic was better than Bird. He came out on top against him college and in the NBA. They both played with multiple hall of fame players and Magic won more.

[Spurtacular]

The historical consensus is Magic was better than Bird. He came out on top against him college and in the NBA. They both played with multiple hall of fame players and Magic won more.

Homer analysis, dude.

[da_suns_fan]

Homer analysis, dude.

Yeah...and putting Tim Duncan above Lebron James isnt? Lebron just won two nba finals games by himself. Easily the greatest all-around player of all time.

Tim Duncan?

WHO?!

[da_suns_fan]

When Lebron James retires, there where will be endless retrospectives on his career and analysis on his impact on the league and the game as a whole.

When Tim Duncan retires, no one will give a shit.

[Kidd K]

Best quote of that site:


Bryant is currently second all time in scoring, chasing only Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: 38,387
Karl Malone: 36,928
Kobe Bryant: 32,482

:lmao @ "expert" analysts



Do defensive Spurs fans REALLY think Tim Duncan is a better basketball player than Lebron James?

Tim Duncan has been the better player over his career, yes. If LeBron played in the west he would be just another Durant. Just another Dirk (pre title). He would have VERY rarely even sniffed the Finals. That's why his Finals track record is so shitty and Duncan's is so good. You're practically guaranteed to win if you make the Finals out of the west because you merely have to beat a team that's equal to a west 3-4 seed out of the east. Meanwhile the east team has to -always- play their toughest opponent when they get there.

Despite that, Duncan keeps getting there and keeps winning. LeBron is a great player, but Duncan is also a great player who happens to also win more in a tougher conference, and didn't need to form a superteam to win his titles. Duncan is the fuckin man and PPG is overrated.

[ambchang]

Yeah...and putting Tim Duncan above Lebron James isnt? Lebron just won two nba finals games by himself. Easily the greatest all-around player of all time.

Tim Duncan?

WHO?!

Duncan won a title by himself, and dismantled the Suns.

You can ride the Lebron bandwagon all you like, but Duncan has a case over Lebron, career wise.

[ambchang]

For those who didn't want to go through that horribly difficult to navigate page:

50: Pete Maravich
49: Dave Cowens
48: Wes Unseld
47: Dolph Schayes
46: Paul Pierce
45: Kevin Durant
44: Nique
43: CP3
42: Bill Walton
41: Gary Payton
40: Elvin Hayes
39: Drexler
38: AI
37: Nash
36: Reed
35: Mikan
34: Ewing
33: McHale
32: Kidd
31: Gervin
30: Frazier
29: Wade
28: Rick Barry
27: Bob Cousy
26: Pippen
25: Stockton
24: David Robinson
23: Dirk
22: Havlicek
21: Isiah Thomas
20: Pettit
19: Garnett
18: Barkley
17: Pedo
16: Moses Malone
15: Elgin Baylor
14: Dr. J
13: West
12: Hakeem
11: Oscar Robertson
10: Shaq
9: Kobe
8: Duncan
7: Lebron
6: Bird
5: Wilt
4: Russell
3: Magic
2: Kareem (likely)
1: Jordan (likely)

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan blew a title by himself.



FIFY. Gotta make those "gimmies".

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/oePm8kkQJGwio49YO4TYoHcoJGg=/116x0:1196x720/709x473/filters:format(webp)/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/15138569/tomdunc1.0.jpg

[da_suns_fan]

I'd say it used to be "MJ, Magic and Bird and then everyone else".

Now Id say its "MJ and Lebron and everyone else".

Mentioning Tim Duncan in the same breath as Lebron is ridiculous. And no one outside of insecure Spurs fans would disagree.

[ambchang]

FIFY. Gotta make those "gimmies".

https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/oePm8kkQJGwio49YO4TYoHcoJGg=/116x0:1196x720/709x473/filters:format(webp)/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/15138569/tomdunc1.0.jpg

:lol Lebron got a 2-4 finals record because he never blew any series. 2011 was an embarrassment
Also, stay on the bench.

[ambchang]

I'd say it used to be "MJ, Magic and Bird and then everyone else".

Now Id say its "MJ and Lebron and everyone else".

Mentioning Tim Duncan in the same breath as Lebron is ridiculous. And no one outside of insecure Spurs fans would disagree.

And yet even the Hoops Critic site you quoted ranked Lebron one above Duncan, which is most definitely the same breath.

[da_suns_fan]

:lol Lebron got a 2-4 finals record because he never blew any series. 2011 was an embarrassment
Also, stay on the bench.

And "Timmy" lost to an eighth seed.

And could never repeat (0-5).

Not impressed.

[da_suns_fan]

And yet even the Hoops Critic site you quoted ranked Lebron one above Duncan, which is most definitely the same breath.

Thats a fair point but I think they've got Lebron ranked way too low. Several players are obviously getting a nostalgia vote.

Never in our lifetime will another player average 36, 13, and 9 assists in the finals. Lebron's combination of absurd athleticism, size and high basketball IQ will never be duplicated. He's not the SCORER that MJ, Kobe or Durant were/is but he's easily the best overall player to ever play the game.

Tim Duncan? Please.

[Killakobe81]

Thats a fair point but I think they've got Lebron ranked way too low. Several players are obviously getting a nostalgia vote.

Never in our lifetime will another player average 36, 13, and 9 assists in the finals. Lebron's combination of absurd athleticism, size and high basketball IQ will never be duplicated. He's not the SCORER that MJ, Kobe or Durant were/is but he's easily the best overall player to ever play the game.

Tim Duncan? Please.

I agree with some of this, but he does have to win a few more title to cement that. But of course Spur fans play the "ring card" whenever it suits their ass. but when it doesnt work in their favor it's a team accomplishment ...

[Spurtacular]

Lebron just won two nba finals games by himself.



:lmao:

[ambchang]

50: Pete Maravich - Too high, he was a great entertainer, and I don't like to rag on the dead, but he was basically a talented Jason Williams in the 70s. Low efficiency ball hog type who put up incredible highlights. And I actually loved watching him. I personally would put Worthy, Moncrief, Blackman, Bobby Jones, Billy Cunningham, Yao and a whole bunch of other guys above him.
49: Dave Cowens - Underrated, he's probably not good enough to lead his team to a title, let alone two, outside of the ABA days. He's like the ultimate hustle star. Too bad he lost his fire.
48: Wes Unseld - The ultimate role player, his defense, rebound and outlet passes were incredible. Ranked about right though.
47: Dolph Schayes - Can't take him too seriously, I guess. Ranked a little too high if you just like to rank players by ability, ranked too low if you like to rank his dominance relative to his era.
46: Paul Pierce - Ranked too low, one of the best two way wing players on this list. Underrated as well.
45: Kevin Durant - Ranked way too high. He will probably rank higher as he gets more mileage under his belt, but it's too early now.
44: Nique - I loved Nique, but he's really a mixed bag. Very entertaining, carried that Hawks team for years, but he carried them to no where, and never made it out the 2nd round. He's like the T-Mac of his day.
43: CP3 - His stats were great, especially in the regular season, but he gets shuts down comparatively easily if the opposition focuses on it. Too short, and his range and athleticism aren't really all-time great.
42: Bill Walton - He could have been GOAT if not for nagging injuries. Too bad, he had them. Incredible defender and passer, especially for a center. He's the closest thing to prime Arvynis Sabonis as anybody.
41: Gary Payton - Ranked a little low, great defense, but his real prime wasn't all that long.
40: Elvin Hayes - Overrated, scorer and little else. Sieve on defense
39: Drexler - Underrated, not sure how he could be ranked below AI
38: AI - New age Nate Archibald.
37: Nash - Overrated, yeah, he's got two MVPs, but at least one of those were undeserved.
36: Reed - Great passer, total alpha, another one of those role player superstar guys. He's sort of lucky he's got an incredible backcourt.
35: Mikan - The original superstar
34: Ewing - Never fulfilled the hype out of Georgetown. He was good, just not as good as people expected. The problem is that he took too much time and space on offense.
33: McHale - One of the best low post players of all time. Alpha talent, beta personality.
32: Kidd - I don't know about him ranking this high. Great defender, great floor leader, but still couldn't really shoot until really late in his career.
31: Gervin - Pretty much the opposite of Kidd. Can shoot shoot and shoot, not much else, at least not on a elite level.
30: Frazier - Underrated a lot, he can score, he directs the offense, and he was one of the best defensive players of all time. Very much like a Payton.
29: Wade - Too injured to be ranked this high.
28: Rick Barry - Usually forgotten and underrated, but ranked about right here. Few could really carry a team offensively like he did during his prime.
27: Bob Cousy - Yeah, I could see his impact.
26: Pippen - He never would be this good with MJ, but the Bulls would never be that good without him either.
25: Stockton - Underrated, he was really the Jazz offense, not Malone
24: David Robinson - Underrated, would have been viewed a lot better if he had a PG who made more than 1 3 pter in his playoff career.
23: Dirk - Underrated a little, he really was unstoppable on offense. But does require a specific team around him to really be successful.
22: Havlicek - Pretty overrated, he hustles like crazy and runs non-stop, but overall an inefficient player
21: Isiah Thomas - Overrated. Dumars, Laimbeer and Daly really not getting the credit they deserved.
20: Pettit - Was really great in his day.
19: Garnett - About right, but Garnett really is the ultimate 2nd fiddle.
18: Barkley - About right, his defense sucked though, and he is most definitely a ball stopper
17: Pedo - way overrated. he scored a lot of points, thanks to Stockton. A number of guys below him would have done the same in the same situation (Barkley, Garnett, Robinson, Dirk, McHale, Ewing)
16: Moses Malone - Way underrated. 3 MVPs, bullied the GOAT to submission, and just plain dominated.
15: Elgin Baylor - Forgotten because he never won a ring, and is most definitely an old timer, but he was way ahead of his time.
14: Dr. J - Underrated, his best days were his ABA days, and he changed the game.
13: West - Underrated to about right. His name rarely shows up as the best 2 guard of all time, but he's the #2 best, no question
12: Hakeem - Underrated. He is firmly in the top 10, no reason he is ranked outside of it.
11: Oscar Robertson - About right. Monster stats, but a few players were putting up monster stats.
10: Shaq - About right, would have been higher if he dedicated himself.
9: Kobe - Overrated, he has no case over Shaq, none.
8: Duncan - Underrated to about right, should be in the 4 to 7 range.
7: Lebron - Overrated, 2011 will forever be a huge blackmark on his resume than none of the other top 10 has, only won with some of the most loaded teams in the league, and had a hand in creating bad teams he played on.
6: Bird - A little overrated. His prime is as good as any, just that it wasn't that long.
5: Wilt - About right. Just dominant.
4: Russell - About right to slightly overrated. He changed the game with his defense, his outlet passes were amazing, and he was crucial to the fastbreak. Very cerebral as well.
3: Magic - A little high, I guess. I can never figure out how the Lakers can have 2 of the top 3 players on the same team, and only went 2-1 vs. Bird #6 and McHale #33. Maybe the ranking is a little off?
2: Kareem (likely) - As I have said many times before, Kareem is tough to rank. He accomplished nothing without some of the GOAT PG (the two best according to his ranking, btw), he missed the playoffs, he was a horrible defender and rebounder by the end of his career, his prime came in the 70s when the league really royally sucked (not his fault), he was dominated by Moses in his prime, he played a way over the hill Wilt to a standstill while he was a young buck, but it's really hard to argue against his MVPs, rings, all-nbas, scoring, rebounding figures etc ....
1: Jordan (likely) - People like to put him as the no-brainer #1, I tend to disagree. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Wilt all have a case.

[da_suns_fan]

For those who didn't want to go through that horribly difficult to navigate page:

50: Pete Maravich
49: Dave Cowens
48: Wes Unseld
47: Dolph Schayes
46: Paul Pierce
45: Kevin Durant
44: Nique
43: CP3
42: Bill Walton
41: Gary Payton
40: Elvin Hayes
39: Drexler
38: AI
37: Nash
36: Reed
35: Mikan
34: Ewing
33: McHale
32: Kidd
31: Gervin
30: Frazier
29: Wade
28: Rick Barry
27: Bob Cousy
26: Pippen
25: Stockton
24: David Robinson
23: Dirk
22: Havlicek
21: Isiah Thomas
20: Pettit
19: Garnett
18: Barkley
17: Pedo
16: Moses Malone
15: Elgin Baylor
14: Dr. J
13: West
12: Hakeem
11: Oscar Robertson
10: Shaq
9: Kobe
8: Duncan
7: Lebron
6: Bird
5: Wilt
4: Russell
3: Magic
2: Kareem (likely)
1: Jordan (likely)

HOLY SHIT. Did they forget Karl Malone?!! :lol

[da_suns_fan]

They did! They forgot Karl Malone.

This list is shit.

[ambchang]

Thats a fair point but I think they've got Lebron ranked way too low. Several players are obviously getting a nostalgia vote.

Never in our lifetime will another player average 36, 13, and 9 assists in the finals. Lebron's combination of absurd athleticism, size and high basketball IQ will never be duplicated. He's not the SCORER that MJ, Kobe or Durant were/is but he's easily the best overall player to ever play the game.

Tim Duncan? Please.

His numbers really tells us how horrible the Cavs team was and how the GSW game planned against the Cavs. 36/13/9 was great, but he was extremely high usage. shaq had 38/17/2/3 and another with 33/16/5/3 and the third one with 36/12/4/3 in b2b2b years. Lebron did it once, along with his 18/7/7 series vs. the Mavs.

Duncan averaged 24/17/5/5 in the finals with a much slower pace, then 21/14/2/2 against he best defensive frontline in the league history in an even slower paced game.


I agree with some of this, but he does have to win a few more title to cement that. But of course Spur fans play the "ring card" whenever it suits their ass. but when it doesnt work in their favor it's a team accomplishment ...

Again, issue with Lebron isn't that he was 2-4, it was how he lost those 4.

I can't blame him in 2007, he had no chance. 2013 the Heat had a chance, the Spurs were just on fire, so I can't blame him, 2014 the Cavs were overmatched, and I really believe that if the Cavs had another shooter (like Ray Allen), they would have won. But it was 2011 that really gets me every time. Also, the two that he won, the Heat were loaded, absolutely loaded.

You then look at the Spurs championships. Nobody expected them to win in 99. 03 was supposed to be a rebuilding year, 05 was between them and the Pistons, 07 was supposed to be the Suns or the Mavs, and 14 was supposed to at least be a competitive series vs. the Heat, and they weren't really that much of a favourite going into the playoffs. Duncan did more than expected with the roster, Lebron barely broke even, or did less.

[Spur-Addict]

Pedo :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol you guys are arguing over a list from some random website that nobody knows, tbh..

All-Time lists are pretty lame and antiquated..ranking shitty players from the 60s and 70s is ridiculous, as is placing players with "better careers" ahead of other players with superior peaks IMO..

[ambchang]

A few guys I would consider putting on the top 50 but weren't on the list:

Worthy
Reggie Miller
Moncrief
Dantley
MVPau
Bob Lanier
Chet Walker
TMac
Carter
Alex English
Bernard King
Chris Mullin
Ray Allen
Webber

[ambchang]

:lol you guys are arguing over a list from some random website that nobody knows, tbh..

All-Time lists are pretty lame and antiquated..ranking shitty players from the 60s and 70s is ridiculous, as is placing players with "better careers" ahead of other players with superior peaks IMO..

As opposed to chugging Lebron juice

[ambchang]

And "Timmy" lost to an eighth seed.

When he was clearly over his prime? Sure.

hey look, that player never missed the playoffs, won 2 MVPs, 3 FMVPs, a boatload of all nbas and all-d teams, won 5 titles, but lost to an eight seed in his 14th season, so he clearly is not GOAT material, especially compared to a guy who got embarrassed in the finals and had a 2


And could never repeat (0-5).

Not impressed.

He couldn't repeat, so?

[da_suns_fan]

Duncan averaged 24/17/5/5 in the finals with a much slower pace, then 21/14/2/2 against he best defensive frontline in the league history in an even slower paced game.

.

Ah yes...the proverbial "it was a slower pace" excuse.

Funny that Shaq played in the exact same era and didnt need ANY of the excuses Spurs fans give Duncan.

[da_suns_fan]

When he was clearly over his prime? Sure.


How old was he? 34?

You and your excuses.:lol

[ambchang]

Ah yes...the proverbial "it was a slower pace" excuse.

Funny that Shaq played in the exact same era and didnt need ANY of the excuses Spurs fans give Duncan.

Do you under and the different between pace and era?

[ambchang]

How old was he? 34?

You and your excuses.:lol

And? Lebron was getting his shit pushed in by the mags a lot younger than 34.

[da_suns_fan]

Do you under and the different between pace and era?

Do you understand that players (like Shaq) were in the same era and didnt have any problems putting up huge numbers?

Shaq actually had a game in which he scored 61 and pulled down 23 rebounds.

Year: 2000.

So why didnt Shaq need the excuses you give Duncan?

[Robz4000]

Damn, da_suns_fan sounds salty as hell in all his posts. Also, your reading comprehension is pretty shit; pedo is clearly listed at #17.

[Killakobe81]

50: Pete Maravich - Too high, he was a great entertainer, and I don't like to rag on the dead, but he was basically a talented Jason Williams in the 70s. Low efficiency ball hog type who put up incredible highlights. And I actually loved watching him. I personally would put Worthy, Moncrief, Blackman, Bobby Jones, Billy Cunningham, Yao and a whole bunch of other guys above him.
49: Dave Cowens - Underrated, he's probably not good enough to lead his team to a title, let alone two, outside of the ABA days. He's like the ultimate hustle star. Too bad he lost his fire.
48: Wes Unseld - The ultimate role player, his defense, rebound and outlet passes were incredible. Ranked about right though.
47: Dolph Schayes - Can't take him too seriously, I guess. Ranked a little too high if you just like to rank players by ability, ranked too low if you like to rank his dominance relative to his era.
46: Paul Pierce - Ranked too low, one of the best two way wing players on this list. Underrated as well.
45: Kevin Durant - Ranked way too high. He will probably rank higher as he gets more mileage under his belt, but it's too early now.
44: Nique - I loved Nique, but he's really a mixed bag. Very entertaining, carried that Hawks team for years, but he carried them to no where, and never made it out the 2nd round. He's like the T-Mac of his day.
43: CP3 - His stats were great, especially in the regular season, but he gets shuts down comparatively easily if the opposition focuses on it. Too short, and his range and athleticism aren't really all-time great.
42: Bill Walton - He could have been GOAT if not for nagging injuries. Too bad, he had them. Incredible defender and passer, especially for a center. He's the closest thing to prime Arvynis Sabonis as anybody.
41: Gary Payton - Ranked a little low, great defense, but his real prime wasn't all that long.
40: Elvin Hayes - Overrated, scorer and little else. Sieve on defense
39: Drexler - Underrated, not sure how he could be ranked below AI
38: AI - New age Nate Archibald.
37: Nash - Overrated, yeah, he's got two MVPs, but at least one of those were undeserved.
36: Reed - Great passer, total alpha, another one of those role player superstar guys. He's sort of lucky he's got an incredible backcourt.
35: Mikan - The original superstar
34: Ewing - Never fulfilled the hype out of Georgetown. He was good, just not as good as people expected. The problem is that he took too much time and space on offense.
33: McHale - One of the best low post players of all time. Alpha talent, beta personality.
32: Kidd - I don't know about him ranking this high. Great defender, great floor leader, but still couldn't really shoot until really late in his career.
31: Gervin - Pretty much the opposite of Kidd. Can shoot shoot and shoot, not much else, at least not on a elite level.
30: Frazier - Underrated a lot, he can score, he directs the offense, and he was one of the best defensive players of all time. Very much like a Payton.
29: Wade - Too injured to be ranked this high.
28: Rick Barry - Usually forgotten and underrated, but ranked about right here. Few could really carry a team offensively like he did during his prime.
27: Bob Cousy - Yeah, I could see his impact.
26: Pippen - He never would be this good with MJ, but the Bulls would never be that good without him either.
25: Stockton - Underrated, he was really the Jazz offense, not Malone
24: David Robinson - Underrated, would have been viewed a lot better if he had a PG who made more than 1 3 pter in his playoff career.
23: Dirk - Underrated a little, he really was unstoppable on offense. But does require a specific team around him to really be successful.
22: Havlicek - Pretty overrated, he hustles like crazy and runs non-stop, but overall an inefficient player
21: Isiah Thomas - Overrated. Dumars, Laimbeer and Daly really not getting the credit they deserved.
20: Pettit - Was really great in his day.
19: Garnett - About right, but Garnett really is the ultimate 2nd fiddle.
18: Barkley - About right, his defense sucked though, and he is most definitely a ball stopper
17: Pedo - way overrated. he scored a lot of points, thanks to Stockton. A number of guys below him would have done the same in the same situation (Barkley, Garnett, Robinson, Dirk, McHale, Ewing)
16: Moses Malone - Way underrated. 3 MVPs, bullied the GOAT to submission, and just plain dominated.
15: Elgin Baylor - Forgotten because he never won a ring, and is most definitely an old timer, but he was way ahead of his time.
14: Dr. J - Underrated, his best days were his ABA days, and he changed the game.
13: West - Underrated to about right. His name rarely shows up as the best 2 guard of all time, but he's the #2 best, no question
12: Hakeem - Underrated. He is firmly in the top 10, no reason he is ranked outside of it.
11: Oscar Robertson - About right. Monster stats, but a few players were putting up monster stats.
10: Shaq - About right, would have been higher if he dedicated himself.
9: Kobe - Overrated, he has no case over Shaq, none.
8: Duncan - Underrated to about right, should be in the 4 to 7 range.
7: Lebron - Overrated, 2011 will forever be a huge blackmark on his resume than none of the other top 10 has, only won with some of the most loaded teams in the league, and had a hand in creating bad teams he played on.
6: Bird - A little overrated. His prime is as good as any, just that it wasn't that long.
5: Wilt - About right. Just dominant.
4: Russell - About right to slightly overrated. He changed the game with his defense, his outlet passes were amazing, and he was crucial to the fastbreak. Very cerebral as well.
3: Magic - A little high, I guess. I can never figure out how the Lakers can have 2 of the top 3 players on the same team, and only went 2-1 vs. Bird #6 and McHale #33. Maybe the ranking is a little off?
2: Kareem (likely) - As I have said many times before, Kareem is tough to rank. He accomplished nothing without some of the GOAT PG (the two best according to his ranking, btw), he missed the playoffs, he was a horrible defender and rebounder by the end of his career, his prime came in the 70s when the league really royally sucked (not his fault), he was dominated by Moses in his prime, he played a way over the hill Wilt to a standstill while he was a young buck, but it's really hard to argue against his MVPs, rings, all-nbas, scoring, rebounding figures etc ....
1: Jordan (likely) - People like to put him as the no-brainer #1, I tend to disagree. Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Wilt all have a case.

1983 was not Kareems "prime" stop with that bullshit.

[Killakobe81]

His numbers really tells us how horrible the Cavs team was and how the GSW game planned against the Cavs. 36/13/9 was great, but he was extremely high usage. shaq had 38/17/2/3 and another with 33/16/5/3 and the third one with 36/12/4/3 in b2b2b years. Lebron did it once, along with his 18/7/7 series vs. the Mavs.

Duncan averaged 24/17/5/5 in the finals with a much slower pace, then 21/14/2/2 against he best defensive frontline in the league history in an even slower paced game.



Again, issue with Lebron isn't that he was 2-4, it was how he lost those 4.

I can't blame him in 2007, he had no chance. 2013 the Heat had a chance, the Spurs were just on fire, so I can't blame him, 2014 the Cavs were overmatched, and I really believe that if the Cavs had another shooter (like Ray Allen), they would have won. But it was 2011 that really gets me every time. Also, the two that he won, the Heat were loaded, absolutely loaded.

You then look at the Spurs championships. Nobody expected them to win in 99. 03 was supposed to be a rebuilding year, 05 was between them and the Pistons, 07 was supposed to be the Suns or the Mavs, and 14 was supposed to at least be a competitive series vs. the Heat, and they weren't really that much of a favourite going into the playoffs. Duncan did more than expected with the roster, Lebron barely broke even, or did less.

Wont even bother ...when Duncan wins he overcame the odds ...when LeBron wins his team was loaded ...

[TheGreatYacht]

Suns fan hating on Duncan? :wow

So you're saying after getting cucked so many times by the Spurs franchise, their fans have had enough? :cry

Good luck with det Tyson/Keif' core :lol Oh wait... He wants out
Sending 3/4ths of your main roster to the SL, and getting handled by Fathead... :lol

[da_suns_fan]

Suns fan hating on Duncan? :wow

So you're saying after getting cucked so many times by the Spurs franchise, their fans have had enough? :cry

Good luck with det Tyson/Keif' core :lol Oh wait... He wants out
Sending 3/4ths of your main roster to the SL, and getting handled by Fathead... :lol

Now THATS salty. :lol

Truth hurts, huh?

[ambchang]

Do you understand that players (like Shaq) were in the same era and didnt have any problems putting up huge numbers?

Shaq actually had a game in which he scored 61 and pulled down 23 rebounds.

Year: 2000.

So why didnt Shaq need the excuses you give Duncan?

So you don't understand the difference era and pace. Got it.

[ambchang]

1983 was not Kareems "prime" stop with that bullshit.

What was he doing in his prime .... Wait, he missed two playoffs. You want to go there?

[ambchang]

Wont even bother ...when Duncan wins he overcame the odds ...when LeBron wins his team was loaded ...

Which of the Spurs teams were favourites going in the season or the playoffs. 2005 was the only one and it was pretty much split with the Pistons.

[LittleCriminal]

http://s9.postimg.org/iuudskv2n/duncan3.jpg

[LittleCriminal]

http://www.evolytics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/NBA-Elite.png

[Killakobe81]

What was he doing in his prime .... Wait, he missed two playoffs. You want to go there?

I dont give two shits where you go. i dont take this shit serious or personal ...i make my points and Im done. But if you want to go there feel free ...i know i was teasing aboot feminine posts but only my mom and his wife use that you wanna go there line ...

[scanry]

Which of the Spurs teams were favourites going in the season or the playoffs. 2005 was the only one and it was pretty much split with the Pistons.

Tbh, the Spurs were the favorites in 2000, 2005, 2006 and 2015. The Spurs may not have had superstars besides Tim, but they were still loaded the past 2 decades.

[TDMVPDPOY]

http://www.evolytics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/NBA-Elite.png

this graph will be bs had enrique won the rs mvp 2 years ago...him being above hakeem on that graph

[Killakobe81]

Tbh, the Spurs were the favorites in 2000, 2005, 2006 and 2015. The Spurs may not have had superstars besides Tim, but they were still loaded the past 2 decades.

At least cofavorites or short list of contenders ....but Amb is playing stupid (his word).
Amb, So missing the playoffs subtracts points for Kareem ....but not winning a title doesnt hurt Stockton's case or Robinson's but hurts Karl Malone?

As far as favorites going in to the playoffs what was the Spurs offensive and defensive ratings in the title years? What about scoring differential pretty sure based by numbers not media pundits Spurs were favorites one of those years ...

[ambchang]

I dont give two shits where you go. i dont take this shit serious or personal ...i make my points and Im done. But if you want to go there feel free ...i know i was teasing aboot feminine posts but only my mom and his wife use that you wanna go there line ...

You seem to have a circle surrounded by females. Have fun with your girlfriends but remember to hang out with guys and have a beer once in a while or next thing you know you'd be all metrosexual shopping for Burberry handbags and shoes.

You seem to be taking things pretty seriously now. Seemed I struck a nerve.

[ambchang]

Tbh, the Spurs were the favorites in 2000, 2005, 2006 and 2015. The Spurs may not have had superstars besides Tim, but they were still loaded the past 2 decades.

Didn't win those years. They were only favourites becaus they won the previous year.

They weren't really favourites in 2000. Nba changed the rules to make sure the Spurs can't win that year. Duncan getting hurt didn't help.

[ambchang]

At least cofavorites or short list of contenders ....but Amb is playing stupid (his word).
Amb, So missing the playoffs subtracts points for Kareem ....but not winning a title doesnt hurt Stockton's case or Robinson's but hurts Karl Malone?

As far as favorites going in to the playoffs what was the Spurs offensive and defensive ratings in the title years? What about scoring differential pretty sure based by numbers not media pundits Spurs were favorites one of those years ...

You know the difference between winning the title vs making the playoffs, right?

Robinson got a pass because his team sucked just like most of Barkleys prime. Stockton gets a pass because he had great chances but his running mate was a certified choker ( I don't use that term often and pedo is really the only one) and he had to worry about his preteen daughters so that mental strain will likely prevent him from his best performance. As dirty as Stockton was I have a little sympathy towards him.

Pedo shouldn't have won any titles becaus he's overrated to begin with. He just isn't good niugh to lead the Jazz to titles.

[ambchang]

how come kareems championships holds so much weight when he was a coatrider?

He wasn't playing for titles then, he was in it for the money because of all the bad investments he made and his house burned to the ground. Not to mention having his financial manager take a $9m loan in his name without his authorization. That is when he made $20m or so his entire career.

Then you have laker fans coming in yapping their mouths about Duncan losing a few million when he made over $230m plus endorsements in his career. It's not like Duncan had to fly economy and take the budget bus like Kareem does. Which really also speaks to how well the lakers take care of their legends, Kareem is flat broke and the lakers did jack squat.

[Killakobe81]

You know the difference between winning the title vs making the playoffs, right?

Robinson got a pass because his team sucked just like most of Barkleys prime. Stockton gets a pass because he had great chances but his running mate was a certified choker ( I don't use that term often and pedo is really the only one) and he had to worry about his preteen daughters so that mental strain will likely prevent him from his best performance. As dirty as Stockton was I have a little sympathy towards him.

Pedo shouldn't have won any titles becaus he's overrated to begin with. He just isn't good niugh to lead the Jazz to titles.

Didnt answer my other question ...but whatever i can already predict the backpedaling and excuse making so dont bother

[ambchang]

Didnt answer my other question ...but whatever i can already predict the backpedaling and excuse making so dont bother

You can look that up. I am not doing all that work for you if you want to prove something.

[da_suns_fan]

You know the difference between winning the title vs making the playoffs, right?

Robinson got a pass because his team sucked just like most of Barkleys prime. Stockton gets a pass because he had great chances but his running mate was a certified choker ( I don't use that term often and pedo is really the only one) and he had to worry about his preteen daughters so that mental strain will likely prevent him from his best performance. As dirty as Stockton was I have a little sympathy towards him.

Pedo shouldn't have won any titles becaus he's overrated to begin with. He just isn't good niugh to lead the Jazz to titles.


You do know the difference between team sports and individual sports, right?

[ambchang]

You do know the difference between team sports and individual sports, right?

Yes, and I showed as much.

Show where I confused the two.

[Killakobe81]

You can look that up. I am not doing all that work for you if you want to prove something.

I dont have to prove anything. the short sale by you is it's team sport when a player you like fails (Duncan/Pau/David) fails but when they win it's their leadership and you have metrics to prove it!!! When it's a player you don't like Kareem/Kobe/LeBron the failing is on them.

So again I ask why missing the playoffs is some huge wart on Kareem's resume but you point to the shitty cast Robinson had on why he did not succeed once there? how is that consistent or fair? Wasn't Kareem's cast shitty pre-Magic, wilkes etc? And is Charlotte or Bucks etc making the playoffs some merit badge for Al Jeff even though they made the playoffs in a historically shitty East? Not all playoffs are created equal ... and for me Kareem winning the 6 titles means way more than him missing the playoffs. He won as the leader of the Bucks and was the best player for the Lakers in Magic's first title run ... after that he was a key component but not the star, that was Magic but he did something twice that Robinson failed to do once. Lakers built a competent cast around Jabbar much like the Spurs have done for Duncan ... just maybe David wasnt the star for that. Great player. again He was in many ways the center version of Lebron. Fast, strong chiseled frame. Robotic post games. great team-mates. Lebron and Kareem just has something though David seemed to lack. Maybe it's leadership, hunger, drive difficult to say.

Look I am disputing David had knucklehead and or scrub team-mates ... I am just questioning if David had the qualities you admire so much in Tim. And not al of that can be pinned on supporting casts.

I wish I could replace my director with Amb ... he would pull some metric out his ass when I failed to hit some key deliverable or deadline ...he makes great excuses for those he admires.

[Killakobe81]

Yes, and I showed as much.

Show where I confused the two.

Only when it works to your advantage, Amb.

[ambchang]

I dont have to prove anything. the short sale by you is it's team sport when a player you like fails (Duncan/Pau/David) fails but when they win it's their leadership and you have metrics to prove it!!! When it's a player you don't like Kareem/Kobe/LeBron the failing is on them.

No .... Duncan won 5 titles, I don't know what you want, Pau won two, and Robinson won two. They had bad teams and good teams over the years, and it's fine. Robinson couldn't win in his prime but he dragged those deeply flawed teams to 50 wins every year. I am not sure if you get this through your head, there is a difference with winning the title and making the playoffs. Robinson failed to win the finals with a crappy team, which is what happened to great players with bad teams. I have yet to recall a single player who actually dragged his team to a title with a crappy team, other than maybe Rick Barry and the Warriors, and it happened in the 70s when the league stunk.

Making the playoffs is an entirely different scenario, where EVERY. SINGLE. TOP 10. PLAYER managed to do in their respective primes, not matter HOW crappy their teams were.

Jordan made the playoffs with Orlando Woolridge as this 2nd best player, Magic never had a bad team, ditto Bird, Duncan and Russell neither, Kareem was a 4th seed by record in LA he missed playoffs, so I can give him a pass, Hakeem missed the playoffs but he was mostly injured, Shaq never missed the playoffs in his prime, Moses never did either, Wilt, Lebron, Oscar, West, they all make the playoffs in their primes, no matter how bad a team they had.

What IS the problem though is missing playoffs. I don't have much against Kareem because that era was wacky with the division thing (Kareem's team would have made it in LA in today's format), it was you who want to talk about his prime, so I talked about it, but then you went all emo and started breaking out the tissue paper in your purse. The Bucks went from the #1 seed to a #7 seed, a -21 win difference, in a year, once a way over the hill Oscar retired. This is what happens to centers when you don't have decent PGs. C don't bring the ball up, they need people to feed him the ball, that and also Kareem's constant complains about Milwaukee and being a diva about it, but that is for another day.

Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime, his best years stat padding with reasonable teammates. We are not even talking about going past the first round, I am talking about getting into the playoffs where you just have to be a top 8 team in a 15 team conference. That's worse than median, and you will make the playoffs, and yet he failed to. And it's not like the Lakers missed it by a game, it missed the playoffs by 11 games. The Lakers were 34-48 that season, a worse record than the Clippers, who had Elton Brand, Bobby Simmons and Corey Magette as its best players. You seriously think that Simmons and Magette were better players than Odom and Butler by a margin of how much a top 10 player in his prime should be better than Elton Brand? You seriously think that? Garnett had Szczerbiak and Sprewell (last season) as his sidekicks and the Wolves won 10 more games than the Lakers. 10.

MVPau had Battier and Miller as his best sidekicks and got into the playoffs in the same roster as the Lakers. Why was that so difficult for the Lakers to do?

That Laker team had no business winning the title, I agree with you, but not making the playoffs with Kobe putting up 35 ppg? It wasn't that bad of a team.


So again I ask why missing the playoffs is some huge wart on Kareem's resume but you point to the shitty cast Robinson had on why he did not succeed once there? how is that consistent or fair? Wasn't Kareem's cast shitty pre-Magic, wilkes etc? And is Charlotte or Bucks etc making the playoffs some merit badge for Al Jeff even though they made the playoffs in a historically shitty East? Not all playoffs are created equal ... and for me Kareem winning the 6 titles means way more than him missing the playoffs. He won as the leader of the Bucks and was the best player for the Lakers in Magic's first title run ... after that he was a key component but not the star, that was Magic but he did something twice that Robinson failed to do once. Lakers built a competent cast around Jabbar much like the Spurs have done for Duncan ... just maybe David wasnt the star for that. Great player. again He was in many ways the center version of Lebron. Fast, strong chiseled frame. Robotic post games. great team-mates. Lebron and Kareem just has something though David seemed to lack. Maybe it's leadership, hunger, drive difficult to say.

Look I am disputing David had knucklehead and or scrub team-mates ... I am just questioning if David had the qualities you admire so much in Tim. And not al of that can be pinned on supporting casts.

I wish I could replace my director with Amb ... he would pull some metric out his ass when I failed to hit some key deliverable or deadline ...he makes great excuses for those he admires.

So after all this, you still have trouble understanding missing the playoffs vs. not winning the title. You ever find me ranting about Kareem not winning a title in those 8 years? No. it's him missing the playoffs that's a problem.

If Robinson missed the playoffs in his prime, it would be a huge wart, no question, but he didn't. he made them year after year, with questionable supporting casts around him.

I rag on lebron in 11 not because he failed to win the title, but because of how the Heat didn't win. He played horrible, absolutely horrible basketball that series going up against Marion. Are you serious man? I thought he was great in defeat in 08 to 10, 14 and 15, just magnificent. I felt he was great in 12 and 13 during wins, but 11 will always be a black mark.

It's not about winning and losing, it's about how you won and how you lost. You seem to just act stupid just to prolong an argument.

[ambchang]

Only when it works to your advantage, Amb.

How?

[Killakobe81]

No .... Duncan won 5 titles, I don't know what you want, Pau won two, and Robinson won two. They had bad teams and good teams over the years, and it's fine. Robinson couldn't win in his prime but he dragged those deeply flawed teams to 50 wins every year. I am not sure if you get this through your head, there is a difference with winning the title and making the playoffs. Robinson failed to win the finals with a crappy team, which is what happened to great players with bad teams. I have yet to recall a single player who actually dragged his team to a title with a crappy team, other than maybe Rick Barry and the Warriors, and it happened in the 70s when the league stunk.

Making the playoffs is an entirely different scenario, where EVERY. SINGLE. TOP 10. PLAYER managed to do in their respective primes, not matter HOW crappy their teams were.

Jordan made the playoffs with Orlando Woolridge as this 2nd best player, Magic never had a bad team, ditto Bird, Duncan and Russell neither, Kareem was a 4th seed by record in LA he missed playoffs, so I can give him a pass, Hakeem missed the playoffs but he was mostly injured, Shaq never missed the playoffs in his prime, Moses never did either, Wilt, Lebron, Oscar, West, they all make the playoffs in their primes, no matter how bad a team they had.

What IS the problem though is missing playoffs. I don't have much against Kareem because that era was wacky with the division thing (Kareem's team would have made it in LA in today's format), it was you who want to talk about his prime, so I talked about it, but then you went all emo and started breaking out the tissue paper in your purse. The Bucks went from the #1 seed to a #7 seed, a -21 win difference, in a year, once a way over the hill Oscar retired. This is what happens to centers when you don't have decent PGs. C don't bring the ball up, they need people to feed him the ball, that and also Kareem's constant complains about Milwaukee and being a diva about it, but that is for another day.

Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime, his best years stat padding with reasonable teammates. We are not even talking about going past the first round, I am talking about getting into the playoffs where you just have to be a top 8 team in a 15 team conference. That's worse than median, and you will make the playoffs, and yet he failed to. And it's not like the Lakers missed it by a game, it missed the playoffs by 11 games. The Lakers were 34-48 that season, a worse record than the Clippers, who had Elton Brand, Bobby Simmons and Corey Magette as its best players. You seriously think that Simmons and Magette were better players than Odom and Butler by a margin of how much a top 10 player in his prime should be better than Elton Brand? You seriously think that? Garnett had Szczerbiak and Sprewell (last season) as his sidekicks and the Wolves won 10 more games than the Lakers. 10.

MVPau had Battier and Miller as his best sidekicks and got into the playoffs in the same roster as the Lakers. Why was that so difficult for the Lakers to do?

That Laker team had no business winning the title, I agree with you, but not making the playoffs with Kobe putting up 35 ppg? It wasn't that bad of a team.



So after all this, you still have trouble understanding missing the playoffs vs. not winning the title. You ever find me ranting about Kareem not winning a title in those 8 years? No. it's him missing the playoffs that's a problem.

If Robinson missed the playoffs in his prime, it would be a huge wart, no question, but he didn't. he made them year after year, with questionable supporting casts around him.

I rag on lebron in 11 not because he failed to win the title, but because of how the Heat didn't win. He played horrible, absolutely horrible basketball that series going up against Marion. Are you serious man? I thought he was great in defeat in 08 to 10, 14 and 15, just magnificent. I felt he was great in 12 and 13 during wins, but 11 will always be a black mark.

It's not about winning and losing, it's about how you won and how you lost. You seem to just act stupid just to prolong an argument.

so all type of qualifiers ... and when you lose an argument you throw around "fat hands and "stupid" ...it's a good tell for when you have failed. Good to know.

[ambchang]

so all type of qualifiers ... and when you lose an argument you throw around "fat hands and "stupid" ...it's a good tell for when you have failed. Good to know.

:lol lose an argument?

You can't tell the difference between the winning a title and missing the playoffs.

DMC can't tell the difference between impact and cause.

And I am the one that was losing an argument?

It's not about qualifiers, as much as you want this world to be as simple as your mind can handle, it's not.

[Killakobe81]

:lol lose an argument?

You can't tell the difference between the winning a title and missing the playoffs.

DMC can't tell the difference between impact and cause.

And I am the one that was losing an argument?

It's not about qualifiers, as much as you want this world to be as simple as your mind can handle, it's not.

When you resort to name calling and you are not a child, you already lost your argument no matter how good your posts are. Great posters/debaters dont resort to such behavior unless they are losing, immature and/or feminine.

[da_suns_fan]

Making the playoffs is an entirely different scenario, where EVERY. SINGLE. TOP 10. PLAYER managed to do in their respective primes, not matter HOW crappy their teams were.


So Kobe's not top ten because the Lakers didnt make the playoffs in 2006 in his prime? Who defined this criteria?

Can I define my own criteria?

Youre not top ten if you lose to an eighth seed.

Youre not top ten if you had an embarrassing exit in every single round of the playoffs (swept or lost to a lower seed).

[Killakobe81]

So Kobe's not top ten because the Lakers didnt make the playoffs in 2006 in his prime? Who defined this criteria?

Can I define my own criteria?

Youre not top ten if you lose to an eighth seed.

Youre not top ten if you spend half your career averaging less than 20 points a game.

Youre not top ten if you had an embarrassing exit in every single round of the playoffs (swept or lost to a lower seed).

Thing that is funny he doesnt even see how he makes up his own targets and goal posts, tries to act metrics based but his biases are painfully obvious and even non Kobe fans like yourself and Harlem don't even agree with the shit he is pumping. So making the playoffs in a shitty year with a shitty record is better than missing one in a competitive year ...how does THAT make sense?
But Amb is entitled torank his own top 10 ... hell he can put Pau and David robinson top 5 and tim over Lebron for all I care ...but he acts as if his criteria is holier than yours. If Lebron is over Tim in YOUR rankings how is Amb's criteria anymore valid than yours?

Make your list amb give your reasons and move on ...

[ambchang]

When you resort to name calling and you are not a child, you already lost your argument no matter how good your posts are. Great posters/debaters dont resort to such behavior unless they are losing, immature and/or feminine.

Something like you are a woman or something like that?

How does this logic even work to begin with anyways.

Someone was once arguing with Karl Malone around the topic of impregnating 13 year old girls and then abandoning the baby, Karl Malone's argument was "it felt good man!", but that person said "You are morally corrupt, you sick pedophile!" According to you, under this scenario, Karl Malone "won" the argument because he was called a pedophile, so you, in your sick twisted mind, would stand there, as a third person, thinking, "Man, Karl Malone is right, impregnating 13 year olds and then abandoning the baby is right, because that other guy just called him a sick pedophile."



So Kobe's not top ten because the Lakers didnt make the playoffs in 2006 in his prime? Who defined this criteria?

Can I define my own criteria?

Youre not top ten if you lose to an eighth seed.

Youre not top ten if you had an embarrassing exit in every single round of the playoffs (swept or lost to a lower seed).

Losing in playoff rounds to define players, especially when they had a huge stream of success, is looking at the trees and missing the forest.

Kobe was swept, Shaq was swept, Magic was embarrassed, Jordan was swept, and Duncan never lost in an "embarrassing" fashion in the finals, and how was losing to a lower seed "embarrassing"?

Besides, it wasn't just that one thing, there are many others:
1) Highly inefficient
2) Never led his team in most advanced stats in any championship years
3) His best numbers were posted on bad teams
4) Lakers consistently have about the same record w vs. w/o him on the court
5) Posted some of the worst advanced stats by anyone that can reasonably be considered in the top 15, even top 20 all time.
6) His teams were horrible without the best frontcourt in the league, time after time, even in his prime
7) Had 5 seasons and 8 playoffs where he had a negative ORTG-DRTG
8) Poisonous personality that drove away Shaq (at least partially), drove away MVPau, threw Bynum under the bus, drove away Dwight, and rumoured to drive away a number of free agents.
9) Played in an age where perimeter play was emphasized, and had numbers similar to T-Mac, which no one in their right minds would put in the top 30 all time. Jordan had no peers, Bird was with magic, Kareem was with Wilt and Moses, Duncan was with Garnett, Hakeem was with Robinson and Ewing (dominated them as well), Russell had Wilt, Lebron had no peers, Big O had no peers, and Kobe had .... T-Mac and Vince Carter?

I can't, for the life of me, figure out how you can not understand the difference between missing the playoffs and getting ousted in the playoffs. One is being consistently bad over the course of an entire season, over 82 games, against all other 29 teams, the other is losing to a team that is better than you, and to one single team, that's it. It's like saying, "man, this guy really suck at sport, he is below average in every single one of them", vs. "Man, this guy really suck at sport, he can't play soccer at all, even though he can play basketball, baseball, hockey, football, badminton, gymnastics and everything else."


Thing that is funny he doesnt even see how he makes up his own targets and goal posts, tries to act metrics based but his biases are painfully obvious and even non Kobe fans like yourself and Harlem don't even agree with the shit he is pumping. So making the playoffs in a shitty year with a shitty record is better than missing one in a competitive year ...how does THAT make sense?
But Amb is entitled torank his own top 10 ... hell he can put Pau and David robinson top 5 and tim over Lebron for all I care ...but he acts as if his criteria is holier than yours. If Lebron is over Tim in YOUR rankings how is Amb's criteria anymore valid than yours?

Make your list amb give your reasons and move on ...

How was 2005 missing it in a competitive year? I listed it out, the Lakers weren't the 9th seed that year, they were the 11th seed. Clippers with Elton Brand leading them finished with a better record than the Lakers, and Kobe was at his absolute prime. It's like if Lebron James missed the playoffs last year in the West if he played on the Jazz in place of Gordon Hayward. Yeah, the team is bad, but you'd expect an all-time great top 10 player to at least lead them to the playoffs, or at least, for Pete's sake, get them a better record than a team led by Elton Brand.

[da_suns_fan]

Kobe was swept, Shaq was swept, Magic was embarrassed, Jordan was swept, and Duncan never lost in an "embarrassing" fashion in the finals, and how was losing to a lower seed "embarrassing"?


http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Serious_e0272a_940384.jpg

[Killakobe81]

Something like you are a woman or something like that?

How does this logic even work to begin with anyways.

Someone was once arguing with Karl Malone around the topic of impregnating 13 year old girls and then abandoning the baby, Karl Malone's argument was "it felt good man!", but that person said "You are morally corrupt, you sick pedophile!" According to you, under this scenario, Karl Malone "won" the argument because he was called a pedophile, so you, in your sick twisted mind, would stand there, as a third person, thinking, "Man, Karl Malone is right, impregnating 13 year olds and then abandoning the baby is right, because that other guy just called him a sick pedophile."




Losing in playoff rounds to define players, especially when they had a huge stream of success, is looking at the trees and missing the forest.

Kobe was swept, Shaq was swept, Magic was embarrassed, Jordan was swept, and Duncan never lost in an "embarrassing" fashion in the finals, and how was losing to a lower seed "embarrassing"?

Besides, it wasn't just that one thing, there are many others:
1) Highly inefficient
2) Never led his team in most advanced stats in any championship years
3) His best numbers were posted on bad teams
4) Lakers consistently have about the same record w vs. w/o him on the court
5) Posted some of the worst advanced stats by anyone that can reasonably be considered in the top 15, even top 20 all time.
6) His teams were horrible without the best frontcourt in the league, time after time, even in his prime
7) Had 5 seasons and 8 playoffs where he had a negative ORTG-DRTG
8) Poisonous personality that drove away Shaq (at least partially), drove away MVPau, threw Bynum under the bus, drove away Dwight, and rumoured to drive away a number of free agents.
9) Played in an age where perimeter play was emphasized, and had numbers similar to T-Mac, which no one in their right minds would put in the top 30 all time. Jordan had no peers, Bird was with magic, Kareem was with Wilt and Moses, Duncan was with Garnett, Hakeem was with Robinson and Ewing (dominated them as well), Russell had Wilt, Lebron had no peers, Big O had no peers, and Kobe had .... T-Mac and Vince Carter?

I can't, for the life of me, figure out how you can not understand the difference between missing the playoffs and getting ousted in the playoffs. One is being consistently bad over the course of an entire season, over 82 games, against all other 29 teams, the other is losing to a team that is better than you, and to one single team, that's it. It's like saying, "man, this guy really suck at sport, he is below average in every single one of them", vs. "Man, this guy really suck at sport, he can't play soccer at all, even though he can play basketball, baseball, hockey, football, badminton, gymnastics and everything else."



How was 2005 missing it in a competitive year? I listed it out, the Lakers weren't the 9th seed that year, they were the 11th seed. Clippers with Elton Brand leading them finished with a better record than the Lakers, and Kobe was at his absolute prime. It's like if Lebron James missed the playoffs last year in the West if he played on the Jazz in place of Gordon Hayward. Yeah, the team is bad, but you'd expect an all-time great top 10 player to at least lead them to the playoffs, or at least, for Pete's sake, get them a better record than a team led by Elton Brand.

I already told you I wont discuss Achilles with you anymore, besides you lost me with that horrid Karl Malone analogy. So who are you posting all that for? :lol. If there is a "pitch count" for old posters you are over it.

You can copy and paste the same arguments you have made dozens of times. I never said 2005 was some great competitive year because I am not discussing Kobe. My point is you keep using the missing the playoffs argument (remember we were talking Kareem) when plenty of players leading East teams are getting "credit" for making the playoffs when their team would be shite in the West.

With you it's always about Kobe again we were talking about Kareem. I only brought up Kobe as ana example because again you make excuses for your faves and crucify Kareem and others with your arbitrary criteria. We will not discuss Kobe told you this repeatedly. If you wish to debate dasuns fan great I will watch but keep me out of it.

[da_suns_fan]

Getting curb-stomped by the Lakers in 2001 (after all that build up about how they were the "true champions") was embarrassing. Then winning a single game the next year just made everyone understand how limited Duncan truly was.

Losing a game 7 at home in overtime against the Mavs when youre the DEFENDING CHAMPIONS is embarrassing.

Losing to an 8th seed is embarrassing.

Blowing a five point lead with 26 seconds left (and the ball) is embarrassing.

Blowing a layup in the final minute of the NBA finals is embarrassing as fuck:


J3NvhxKicJY

[Killakobe81]

And if remember correctly, da suns fan was discussing Lebron at first. but with amb all roads lead back to Kobe ...

[ambchang]

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Serious_e0272a_940384.jpg

You answered your own question before you even asked it.


So Kobe's not top ten because the Lakers didnt make the playoffs in 2006 in his prime? Who defined this criteria?

Can I define my own criteria?

Youre not top ten if you lose to an eighth seed.

Youre not top ten if you had an embarrassing exit in every single round of the playoffs (swept or lost to a lower seed).


The Spurs lost once in the finals, ever, to the Heat with a better record, and in 7 games. So they were neither swept nor lost to a lower seed. Not entirely sure why you have to ask.

[ambchang]

I already told you I wont discuss Achilles with you anymore, besides you lost me with that horrid Karl Malone analogy. So who are you posting all that for? :lol. If there is a "pitch count" for old posters you are over it.

You came up with your "you lost an argument if you call other people mean names" rule, what is this, kindergarten? I just pointed out how stupid that was.


You can copy and paste the same arguments you have made dozens of times. I never said 2005 was some great competitive year because I am not discussing Kobe. My point is you keep using the missing the playoffs argument (remember we were talking Kareem) when plenty of players leading East teams are getting "credit" for making the playoffs when their team would be shite in the West.

And that is precisely why I didn't hold the two missed playoffs in Kareem's prime against him. Thank you, you finally realized it's not a black and white issue, but a context issue.


With you it's always about Kobe again we were talking about Kareem. I only brought up Kobe as ana example because again you make excuses for your faves and crucify Kareem and others with your arbitrary criteria. We will not discuss Kobe told you this repeatedly. If you wish to debate dasuns fan great I will watch but keep me out of it.

I didn't crucify Kareem, I said Kareem and Magic, as the #2 and #3 on the top fifty list, "only" had a 2-1 record. You said it wasn't his prime, and I asked you if you want me to talk about his prime. You brought this entire chain in it.

[ambchang]

And if remember correctly, da suns fan was discussing Lebron at first. but with amb all roads lead back to Kobe ...

You remembered wrong. First time Kobe was brought up between da_suns_fan and me (not including the list itself).


Thats a fair point but I think they've got Lebron ranked way too low. Several players are obviously getting a nostalgia vote.

Never in our lifetime will another player average 36, 13, and 9 assists in the finals. Lebron's combination of absurd athleticism, size and high basketball IQ will never be duplicated. He's not the SCORER that MJ, Kobe or Durant were/is but he's easily the best overall player to ever play the game.

Tim Duncan? Please.

For good measure, this is the first time Kobe showed up between our conversation (not including the list itself):


I dont have to prove anything. the short sale by you is it's team sport when a player you like fails (Duncan/Pau/David) fails but when they win it's their leadership and you have metrics to prove it!!! When it's a player you don't like Kareem/Kobe/LeBron the failing is on them.

So again I ask why missing the playoffs is some huge wart on Kareem's resume but you point to the shitty cast Robinson had on why he did not succeed once there? how is that consistent or fair? Wasn't Kareem's cast shitty pre-Magic, wilkes etc? And is Charlotte or Bucks etc making the playoffs some merit badge for Al Jeff even though they made the playoffs in a historically shitty East? Not all playoffs are created equal ... and for me Kareem winning the 6 titles means way more than him missing the playoffs. He won as the leader of the Bucks and was the best player for the Lakers in Magic's first title run ... after that he was a key component but not the star, that was Magic but he did something twice that Robinson failed to do once. Lakers built a competent cast around Jabbar much like the Spurs have done for Duncan ... just maybe David wasnt the star for that. Great player. again He was in many ways the center version of Lebron. Fast, strong chiseled frame. Robotic post games. great team-mates. Lebron and Kareem just has something though David seemed to lack. Maybe it's leadership, hunger, drive difficult to say.

Look I am disputing David had knucklehead and or scrub team-mates ... I am just questioning if David had the qualities you admire so much in Tim. And not al of that can be pinned on supporting casts.

I wish I could replace my director with Amb ... he would pull some metric out his ass when I failed to hit some key deliverable or deadline ...he makes great excuses for those he admires.

Oops, you did it again.

Seems like you have have a few moves:
1) amb is obsessed with Kobe, brings him up every time - Truth is, you brought him up every single time
2) You are female - Just randomly created rules, you use the word destroy? OMG that is so feminine. You said "You want to go there?" Dear Lord that is so girly *giggle giggle giggle*
3) You just called me a name, so you lost an argument - Yes, that is so masculine indeed
4) I already said I am not going to talk about Kobe with you - yeah, usually after 14 posts back and forth, and then you realized you can't argue the case, then suddenly you pull this up. Wonder why you didn't do it earlier
5) You change the goal post - but you have never once showed me how I did it. I mean, you finally got that winning a title and making the playoffs are two different things, right?
6) I am a Laker fan first - yeah, whatever, I don't know how that relates to anything.

[ambchang]

Getting curb-stomped by the Lakers in 2001 (after all that build up about how they were the "true champions") was embarrassing. Then winning a single game the next year just made everyone understand how limited Duncan truly was.

As in getting swept in 07 in the finals? How as that not embarrassing? Wow, the Cavs won two games vs. the Warriors, such a heroic effort!


Losing a game 7 at home in overtime against the Mavs when youre the DEFENDING CHAMPIONS is embarrassing.

Losing in OT in game 7 is embarrassing? How do you draw these conclusions?


Losing to an 8th seed is embarrassing. I will give you that.


Blowing a five point lead with 26 seconds left (and the ball) is embarrassing. Losing to a higher seed in the finals is embarrassing?


Blowing a layup in the final minute of the NBA finals is embarrassing as fuck:


J3NvhxKicJY

No, people miss shots, Lebron missed plenty in his career, but if you want to go down that route .....

Finals:
Getting swept in the Finals 0-4 is embarrassing
Allow the opposition to put up the best shooting half and game in NBA history is embarrassing
Having the biggest margin of defeat in NBA history is embarrassing
Putting up 8 points in a loss and being generally horribly in the 4th quarter is embarrassing

CF:
Going 2-12 and missing a fingerroll to miss Game 1 was embarrassing
Losing to the Magic in 6 games with home court advantage, not to mention a 66-16 record, is embarrassing

CSF:
Losing to the lower see in 2010 was embarrassing

But he never lost in the 1st round, he just missed the playoffs twice, that is so much LESS embarrassing? Eh?

[Killakobe81]

You remembered wrong. First time Kobe was brought up between da_suns_fan and me (not including the list itself).



For good measure, this is the first time Kobe showed up between our conversation (not including the list itself):



Oops, you did it again.

Seems like you have have a few moves:
1) amb is obsessed with Kobe, brings him up every time - Truth is, you brought him up every single time
2) You are female - Just randomly created rules, you use the word destroy? OMG that is so feminine. You said "You want to go there?" Dear Lord that is so girly *giggle giggle giggle*
3) You just called me a name, so you lost an argument - Yes, that is so masculine indeed
4) I already said I am not going to talk about Kobe with you - yeah, usually after 14 posts back and forth, and then you realized you can't argue the case, then suddenly you pull this up. Wonder why you didn't do it earlier
5) You change the goal post - but you have never once showed me how I did it. I mean, you finally got that winning a title and making the playoffs are two different things, right?
6) I am a Laker fan first - yeah, whatever, I don't know how that relates to anything.

LOL who actually struck a nerve here? BTW using "oops you did it again" does nada to change the perception.
I missed your metro-sexual comment/post earlier ... have you heard of the pot calling the kettle black?

No way do I bring up Kobe more than you ... shit it's not even humanly possible. You are right, I did bring him up first in this convo but it was once in a whole paragraph Along with Kareem and LeBron. You followed with another essay (#4,080) on Kobe .. but honestly it doesnt matter.

It doesnt take much from me to get you going ...It takes only 4 little letters not even a cuss word to get you flowing like Bridget Jone's diary or dat Carrie bitch from Sex and the City.:toast

[da_suns_fan]

As in getting swept in 07 in the finals? How as that not embarrassing? Wow, the Cavs won two games vs. the Warriors, such a heroic effort!



The Spurs (and their fans) talked mad shit all of 2000-2001 about how they were the "true champions" and how the Lakers' 2000 championship was tainted since Duncan was injured. Then they get the "showdown" they wanted in the western conference finals and even had home court advantage.

They got swept in four games by an average of 20+ points per game.

Yes...that much more embarrassing that Lebron's Cavs getting swept in 07. No one even expected the cavs to be there. I remember thinking "this team has no business being in the finals".

And losing at home in a game 7 in overtime is hella embarrassing. The only other one that comes to mind is the Kings in 2002. Those choke-jobs rarely happen.

[daslicer]

The Spurs (and their fans) talked mad shit all of 2000-2001 about how they were the "true champions" and how the Lakers' 2000 championship was tainted since Duncan was injured. Then they get the "showdown" they wanted in the western conference finals and even had home court advantage.

They got swept in four games by an average of 20+ points per game.

Yes...that much more embarrassing that Lebron's Cavs getting swept in 07. No one even expected the cavs to be there. I remember thinking "this team has no business being in the finals".

And losing at home in a game 7 in overtime is hella embarrassing. The only other one that comes to mind is the Kings in 2002. Those choke-jobs rarely happen.

It also happened to your suns back in '95 when they lost to the rockets in game 7 on their home court. Anyways you sound like a retarded Laker fan in disguise. A suns fan that hates the spurs with a passion but gives the Lakers a lot of head. That to me blows my mind. Both the Spurs and the Lakers have shitted on the Suns a bunch of times in the playoffs in the past but Spurs get your wrath. Anyways can't take your opinion seriously considering you have extreme biases.

[ambchang]

The Spurs (and their fans) talked mad shit all of 2000-2001 about how they were the "true champions" and how the Lakers' 2000 championship was tainted since Duncan was injured. Then they get the "showdown" they wanted in the western conference finals and even had home court advantage.

They got swept in four games by an average of 20+ points per game.

Yes...that much more embarrassing that Lebron's Cavs getting swept in 07. No one even expected the cavs to be there. I remember thinking "this team has no business being in the finals".

And losing at home in a game 7 in overtime is hella embarrassing. The only other one that comes to mind is the Kings in 2002. Those choke-jobs rarely happen.

The Suns were expected to win from 05 to 08, peaking in 07 but couldn't even get to the finals, not even stretch it to 7 games in the conference SEMI finals WITH homecourt, that was embarrassing. Getting their asses handed to them by the eventual three time champion with Steve Smith and Terry Porter is expected. can't help it that you are so retarded that you actually thought the Spurs had a chance.

[da_suns_fan]

The Suns were expected to win from 05 to 08, peaking in 07 but couldn't even get to the finals, not even stretch it to 7 games in the conference SEMI finals WITH homecourt, that was embarrassing. Getting their asses handed to them by the eventual three time champion with Steve Smith and Terry Porter is expected. can't help it that you are so retarded that you actually thought the Spurs had a chance.

Touched a nerve, did I? Are you ready to admit that Duncan had a lot of embarrassing losses? :lol

The Suns have had plenty of embarrassments throughout their history but you didnt name any of them. They certainly werent expected to win in 06 with no Amare Stoudemire. I dont remember anyone picking them to win in 05 either. That was their first year together..many "experts" didnt even pick them to make the playoffs.

2007 they were "expected to win" and probably would have. I mean they had a 2-2 series tied with home court advantage. We'll never know what would have happened.

For embarrassing Suns moments I would think of how they blew two game leads against the rockets in 94 and again in 95. More recently the decisions they made 2010-2013 were just awful.

But what do the Suns have to do with Spurs' respective embarrassments? If the Suns had lost to the Lakers in 06 (which they almost did) I could easily admit that it was an embarrassing loss for them.

You, on the other hand, are a defensive homer and cant admit that Duncan had some REALLY embarrassing playoff losses in his career. But it happened whether you want to admit it or not.

[ambchang]

Touched a nerve, did I? Are you ready to admit that Duncan had a lot of embarrassing losses? :lol

The Suns have had plenty of embarrassments throughout their history but you didnt name any of them. They certainly werent expected to win in 06 with no Amare Stoudemire. I dont remember anyone picking them to win in 05 either. That was their first year together..many "experts" didnt even pick them to make the playoffs.

2007 they were "expected to win" and probably would have. I mean they had a 2-2 series tied with home court advantage. We'll never know what would have happened.

For embarrassing Suns moments I would think of how they blew two game leads against the rockets in 94 and again in 95. More recently the decisions they made 2010-2013 were just awful.

But what do the Suns have to do with Spurs' respective embarrassments? If the Suns had lost to the Lakers in 06 (which they almost did) I could easily admit that it was an embarrassing loss for them.

You, on the other hand, are a defensive homer and cant admit that Duncan had some REALLY embarrassing playoff losses in his career. But it happened whether you want to admit it or not.

You didn't read my earlier post where I said 8 was embarrassing didn't you?

But then, I am not a fan of an embarrassing team so I must be a home if I don't consider losing to eventual 3 time champions embarrassing.

But then, you seemed to have lost track in your original argument, which was Duncan didn't deserve to be in the same breath as Lebron because Duncan had embarrassing playoff losses, but then using your own definition Lebron had plenty as well, which contradicted what you said.

My bad in bringining the Suns in the conversation, they don't have anyone remotely close to a top 10 player, which was why you had to suck off Lebron so badly b

[Killakobe81]

You didn't read my earlier post where I said 8 was embarrassing didn't you?

But then, I am not a fan of an embarrassing team so I must be a home if I don't consider losing to eventual 3 time champions embarrassing.

But then, you seemed to have lost track in your original argument, which was Duncan didn't deserve to be in the same breath as Lebron because Duncan had embarrassing playoff losses, but then using your own definition Lebron had plenty as well, which contradicted what you said.

My bad in bringining the Suns in the conversation, they don't have anyone remotely close to a top 10 player, which was why you had to suck off Lebron so badly b

PSA ...that last line though well intended ... is not you, "b". Please stick to bashing certain players and propping up others. Not a good look or sound for you ...

Now, proceed ...

[da_suns_fan]

You didn't read my earlier post where I said 8 was embarrassing didn't you?

But then, I am not a fan of an embarrassing team so I must be a home if I don't consider losing to eventual 3 time champions embarrassing.

But then, you seemed to have lost track in your original argument, which was Duncan didn't deserve to be in the same breath as Lebron because Duncan had embarrassing playoff losses, but then using your own definition Lebron had plenty as well, which contradicted what you said.

My bad in bringining the Suns in the conversation, they don't have anyone remotely close to a top 10 player, which was why you had to suck off Lebron so badly b

No, I was following your lead. You said Kobe couldnt be top ten because he didnt make the playoffs in 06 and a few other subjective reasons. So I said Duncan shouldnt be top ten since he embarrassed himself in the playoffs time and time again. Then you brought up the Suns because you knew you lost the argument.

Game. Set. Match.

[ambchang]

No, I was following your lead. You said Kobe couldnt be top ten because he didnt make the playoffs in 06 and a few other subjective reasons. So I said Duncan shouldnt be top ten since he embarrassed himself in the playoffs time and time again. Then you brought up the Suns because you knew you lost the argument.

Game. Set. Match.

What was the argument?

[ambchang]

PSA ...that last line though well intended ... is not you, "b". Please stick to bashing certain players and propping up others. Not a good look or sound for you ...

Now, proceed ...


B was a typo. Meant to type two spaces for a period.

I don't care what looks good and what doesn't look good.

[ambchang]

No, I was following your lead. You said Kobe couldnt be top ten because he didnt make the playoffs in 06 and a few other subjective reasons. So I said Duncan shouldnt be top ten since he embarrassed himself in the playoffs time and time again. Then you brought up the Suns because you knew you lost the argument.

Game. Set. Match.


What was the argument?

Since you obviously forgot, I will answer it for you.

There were two main forks in the argument, and I will lay it out for you, just because you are a Suns fan, and you seem to be a little slow.

1 - Duncan does not belong in the same breath as Lebron for anyone who is not a Spurs homer

Well, there are a few arguments against it, first and foremost being that the article we are quoting had them #7 and #8 all time, next to each other, so they MUST be in the same breath.

Then of course, Duncan put up impressive stats throughout his career. While they are not as impressive as Lebron's, they are most definitely in the same breath.
As expected, Lebron, being a wing player, had better FT%, 3P%, AST, STLS and PF numbers
Duncan, being a post player, had better FG%, REB, BLKS and TOV numbers.
Lebron has the edge on scoring, which really wasn't a surprise.

Duncan had a lifetime ORtg of 110 and DRTG of 96 with a difference of 14, Lebron had 116 and 102 for a difference of 14.

They had similar WS/48 numbers (.211 vs. .240) and Duncan had higher WS numbers due to him player more games (201.2 vs. 178.9). Duncan had better DBPM but James had way better OBPM, and the overall BPM goes to James (9.2 vs. 5.5, but then James hasn't played 8 years out of his prime yet). The numbers are similar in the playoffs.

From a circumstantial, subjective angle, Duncan led a team of young players and way over the hill vets to the 03 championship, putting up monster numbers in the process. That remained undoubtedly his finest year. Lebron's finest has to be 2012, where he put up monster numbers in the playoffs. That said, a supporting cast of Wade, Bosh and Allen is so much better than a last year Robinson, young Parker (replaced by Claxton in clutch moments), young Ginobili (out of control) and Stephen Jackson as your second best player.

They are on pretty even ground, there really isn't much to argue about than that by anyone other than you.

2 - Not having Kobe at a top 10 was based on arbitrary criteria

Well, it's certainly subjective, obviously, but was it arbitrary? I won't agree to it, and I have outlined it here and there multiple times in the forum, you have proven yourself to be extremely slow, so I will list this out one more time.

Most people's top 10 usually have the following list of players (more than 10)

In everybody's list:
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem

Old Timers:
Wilt
Russell
Oscar
West

Depends on who you have
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Moses
Kobe
Lebron
Dr. J

Out of these 14 players, Kobe is the only player who missed the playoffs in his prime AND never led his team in most advanced category in any of the championship season. You can say that he is really an exception, or that he doesn't belong to the group. It is a simple spot the difference exercise that most people learn to master by the time they are about 5, but you seem to have trouble with it.

I just chose to look at this, and say, Kobe can't be the only exception, the only conclusion is, Kobe is not a top 10 player.

Now compare to your criteria, which was losing in an embarrassing fashion (swept or lost to a lower seed) in every round of the playoffs.

Magic and Kareem:
1st round - Lost to the lower seeded Rockets in the 1st round, a team with a losing record to boost. They were the 6th seed but the 6th seed was the lowest seed to make the playoffs, so it is equivalent to 8
CSF: Magic Lost to lower seeded Suns in 90, kareem lost to lower seeded GSW in 73
CF: Lost to lower seed Rockets in 86
F: Swept in Finals by Philly in 83

to boot, Kareem missed the playoffs twice.

Using your criteria, Magic and Kareem couldn't make the top 10 either, so unless you throw out Magic and Kareem, Duncan stays.

Besides, Duncan never did that in the finals, so you just added on missed shots, and different circumstances.
But if you were to add in those circumstances, multiple players in the above list did too.
Lebron as I listed, had "embarrassing" moments in every round, so did Wilt, Kobe, Hakeem, and basically everyone not name Jordan. So your top 10 list is left with one person.

In other words, your criteria wasn't arbitrary, it was just shit, but you failed to realize it, and even tried to claim "victory".

My question to you is, were you born retarded, or did you make an effort be retarded? It's hard, really hard to be as shamelessly stupid like you.

[Killakobe81]

Since you obviously forgot, I will answer it for you.

There were two main forks in the argument, and I will lay it out for you, just because you are a Suns fan, and you seem to be a little slow.

1 - Duncan does not belong in the same breath as Lebron for anyone who is not a Spurs homer

Well, there are a few arguments against it, first and foremost being that the article we are quoting had them #7 and #8 all time, next to each other, so they MUST be in the same breath.

Then of course, Duncan put up impressive stats throughout his career. While they are not as impressive as Lebron's, they are most definitely in the same breath.
As expected, Lebron, being a wing player, had better FT%, 3P%, AST, STLS and PF numbers
Duncan, being a post player, had better FG%, REB, BLKS and TOV numbers.
Lebron has the edge on scoring, which really wasn't a surprise.

Duncan had a lifetime ORtg of 110 and DRTG of 96 with a difference of 14, Lebron had 116 and 102 for a difference of 14.

They had similar WS/48 numbers (.211 vs. .240) and Duncan had higher WS numbers due to him player more games (201.2 vs. 178.9). Duncan had better DBPM but James had way better OBPM, and the overall BPM goes to James (9.2 vs. 5.5, but then James hasn't played 8 years out of his prime yet). The numbers are similar in the playoffs.

From a circumstantial, subjective angle, Duncan led a team of young players and way over the hill vets to the 03 championship, putting up monster numbers in the process. That remained undoubtedly his finest year. Lebron's finest has to be 2012, where he put up monster numbers in the playoffs. That said, a supporting cast of Wade, Bosh and Allen is so much better than a last year Robinson, young Parker (replaced by Claxton in clutch moments), young Ginobili (out of control) and Stephen Jackson as your second best player.

They are on pretty even ground, there really isn't much to argue about than that by anyone other than you.

2 - Not having Kobe at a top 10 was based on arbitrary criteria

Well, it's certainly subjective, obviously, but was it arbitrary? I won't agree to it, and I have outlined it here and there multiple times in the forum, you have proven yourself to be extremely slow, so I will list this out one more time.

Most people's top 10 usually have the following list of players (more than 10)

In everybody's list:
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Kareem

Old Timers:
Wilt
Russell
Oscar
West

Depends on who you have
Hakeem
Duncan
Shaq
Moses
Kobe
Lebron
Dr. J

Out of these 14 players, Kobe is the only player who missed the playoffs in his prime AND never led his team in most advanced category in any of the championship season. You can say that he is really an exception, or that he doesn't belong to the group. It is a simple spot the difference exercise that most people learn to master by the time they are about 5, but you seem to have trouble with it.

I just chose to look at this, and say, Kobe can't be the only exception, the only conclusion is, Kobe is not a top 10 player.

Now compare to your criteria, which was losing in an embarrassing fashion (swept or lost to a lower seed) in every round of the playoffs.

Magic and Kareem:
1st round - Lost to the lower seeded Rockets in the 1st round, a team with a losing record to boost. They were the 6th seed but the 6th seed was the lowest seed to make the playoffs, so it is equivalent to 8
CSF: Magic Lost to lower seeded Suns in 90, kareem lost to lower seeded GSW in 73
CF: Lost to lower seed Rockets in 86
F: Swept in Finals by Philly in 83

to boot, Kareem missed the playoffs twice.

Using your criteria, Magic and Kareem couldn't make the top 10 either, so unless you throw out Magic and Kareem, Duncan stays.

Besides, Duncan never did that in the finals, so you just added on missed shots, and different circumstances.
But if you were to add in those circumstances, multiple players in the above list did too.
Lebron as I listed, had "embarrassing" moments in every round, so did Wilt, Kobe, Hakeem, and basically everyone not name Jordan. So your top 10 list is left with one person.

In other words, your criteria wasn't arbitrary, it was just shit, but you failed to realize it, and even tried to claim "victory".

My question to you is, were you born retarded, or did you make an effort be retarded? It's hard, really hard to be as shamelessly stupid like you.

This is beneath you Amb.

[ambchang]

This is beneath you Amb.

What is? Proving my point?

[Kawhitstorm]

Bird is GOAT, imo....

But any list that has Magic ahead of Bird is hacky. Bird was head and shoulders ahead of Magic through 86.

Bird is Magic's bottom bitch.

[Kawhitstorm]

The Spurs (and their fans) talked mad shit all of 2000-2001 about how they were the "true champions" and how the Lakers' 2000 championship was tainted since Duncan was injured. Then they get the "showdown" they wanted in the western conference finals and even had home court advantage.

They got swept in four games by an average of 20+ points per game.

Yes...that much more embarrassing that Lebron's Cavs getting swept in 07. No one even expected the cavs to be there. I remember thinking "this team has no business being in the finals".

And losing at home in a game 7 in overtime is hella embarrassing. The only other one that comes to mind is the Kings in 2002. Those choke-jobs rarely happen.

You sound more bitter than a man on hook for spousal support to a woman that's now banging your enemy.

Did these mufucka here fabricate an agenda that pre-dates this ST? LMAO!
The 2000-01 Spurs were far from the 99 Spurs
-****** had kidney transplant AFTER the 99 season concluded & dude was never the same.
-Jaron Jackson killed the Lakers in 99 but was morbidly obese over the summer & was released
-Admiral started dealing w/ a debilitating slip disk issue which caused weakness in his leg
-Avery was older than dirt
-Elie was no longer on the team (he was playing for the Suns)

So out of all the rotation player Tim was the only one that was as good as 99 & the rest either were no long on the team or had a steep decline. The only reason they had the #1 seed was b/c Tim was carrying the team. On the other hand, the 2000-01 Lakers had already won a championship, Kobe had entered his prime & Shaq was still at his peak not to mention Fisher playing out of his mind which culminated in the best record for a single postseason run. Tim neutralized Shaq so you can't say shyt about Tim, Derek Anderson (the Spurs 2nd leading scorer) missed the Lakers series so it was Kobe/Fisher that destroyed Antonio Daniel/Terry Porter/Avery. You might have a better argument claiming Moses Malone punked Kareem & swept him in 83 when Kareem had a loaded team along an MVP candidate on his side. The 2000-01 Spurs supporting cast against the Lakers was no better than LeBron's supporting cast when the Spurs swept the Cavs. Lebron got outplayed by the same Tony Parker that was neutralized by rookie Devin Harris the previous year. Even in a series loss, Tim at least handled his business against the so called "most dominant" player when he was at the peak of his powers.

In 2002, Tim actually outplayed Shaq & carried the team for 3 quarters but nobody could hit the side of the barn when the Lakers doubled Tim in the 4th quarter. It was only the emergence of Stephen Jackson in 2002-03 that was able to solve that issue when he made team pay for double Tim; Kerr also had his moment when the Mavs TRIPLE teamed Tim.

Name me an opponent that outplayed/neutralized Shaq in a postseason series b/w 99-03....one? Answer: Nobody......except Tim, four times!

LoL at losing the most epic 7 game series to a team that had the same exact record being embaressing when Tim was the best player in the series despit playing w/ planter fasciitis. Not to mention Manu committing the dumbest foul in postseason history & Tony being neutralized by rookie Devin Harris. It's not like he folded like a cheap tent ala 2011 Finals Lebron.

[da_suns_fan]

So out of all the rotation player Tim was the only one that was as good as 99 & the rest either were no long on the team or had a steep decline.....

I stopped reading right there....Duncan's teammates were no good or in "steep decline" yet they had the best record in the league and home court advantage.

And then they got curb-stomped. The Lakers won by probably the largest margin of victory in modern history.

btw - Spurs fans existed and were able to talk shit before this site was around. The Spurs and their fans looked like fucking idiots.

[Kawhitstorm]

I stopped reading right there....Duncan's teammates were no good or in "steep decline" yet they had the best record in the league and home court advantage.

And then they got curb-stomped. The Lakers won by probably the largest margin of victory in modern history.

btw - Spurs fans existed and were able to talk shit before this site was around. The Spurs and their fans looked like fucking idiots.

LMAO, so the Cavs winning 66 game had to do w/ LeBron having a elite support cast (Mo Williams? lol) rather than LeBron playing at an elite level? Just like fake All-Star Mo Williams disappeared in the postseason Robinson turned into a bitch against Shaq & couldn't outplay backup point guard Antonio Daniels let alone playing wingman like Kobe. Derek Anderson being out for the series & ****** playing w/o a kidney meant Kobe could just coast on defense. Fisher also destroyed both Terry Porter/Avery (made more 3s than the ENTIRE Spurs squad combined) & would have been the second best player on the Spurs. Let's not forget Danny Ferry playing starters minutes when Admiral got shook & tapped out. We all saw how great Admiral & the supporting cast were in the 2000 postseason when they got bounced 3-1 in the 1st round by a Suns squad that was missing Kidd.

In 2002 Admiral mysteriously had back issues in the 2nd rd & none other than Mark Bryant (the 15th man) had to start at center against Shaq. Even then Tim beat the Lakers at STAPLES & the rest of the games were lost in the 4th quarter when the Lakers doubled Tim.

LoL at bringing up agenda that can't be found in the archives & the OP might not even be alive. Team Duncan owns the Suns franchise & that will never change so stay SALTY my friend, stay salty.

[Sean Cagney]

Da Suns fan sounds like most of their bitter salty ass fans when it comes to the Spurs team... My God he is still mad over 03,05,07 and 08....

[Cry Havoc]

At least cofavorites or short list of contenders ....but Amb is playing stupid (his word).
Amb, So missing the playoffs subtracts points for Kareem ....but not winning a title doesnt hurt Stockton's case or Robinson's but hurts Karl Malone?

As far as favorites going in to the playoffs what was the Spurs offensive and defensive ratings in the title years? What about scoring differential pretty sure based by numbers not media pundits Spurs were favorites one of those years ...

Where would you put Duncan all-time?

[midnightpulp]

I love Larry Bird, but the myth around him needs to be challenged by these "writers" more. Larry, before his back injuries, was definitely a tier one all-time great, but his prime was short lived, his peak even shorter. Larry is, at best, a top 8-10 player.

[Killakobe81]

Where would you put Duncan all-time?

Pretty high just above kobe and Shaq below magic kareem mj for sure but i also place him over Bird

[Killakobe81]

I love Larry Bird, but the myth around him needs to be challenged by these "writers" more. Larry, before his back injuries, was definitely a tier one all-time great, but his prime was short lived, his peak even shorter. Larry is, at best, a top 8-10 player.

This.

[Sean Cagney]

This.

Agreed, Larry is not the GOAT either as someone said in here, although in his prime a very very great player. What also gets overlooked and Tim gets knocked for at times is he never repeated as a champ but that is hardly ever mentioned.

Looking at his stats he had a few very good years and the rest of his seasons were just very steady, he never really fell off that badly stat wise and always got over or near 20 PPG. I have him about 6-7 range all times.
Pretty high just above kobe and Shaq below magic kareem mj for sure but i also place him over Bird

I agree with you there.

[Ashy Larry]

Top 12 is usually the 12 battling for the top 10 spots.

[Phenomanul]

Yeah...and putting Tim Duncan above Lebron James isnt? Lebron just won two nba finals games by himself. Easily the greatest all-around player of all time.

Tim Duncan?

WHO?!

Dwayne Wade is on that top 50 list as well... claiming Bron did it "by himself" is a real stretch... especially in light of what would have been of the 2013 NBA Title had the Spurs not gift-wrapped it after Ray Allen's three (off of a LeBron miss, mind you).

Duncan's last 3 titles included no one else from the list.

[Killakobe81]

Dwayne Wade is on that top 50 list as well... claiming Bron did it "by himself" is a real stretch... especially in light of what would have been of the 2013 NBA Title had the Spurs not gift-wrapped it after Ray Allen's three (off of a LeBron miss, mind you).

Duncan's last 3 titles included no one else from the list.

That is a fair point and I agree which is why I have him slightly ahead of Kobe/shaq for that reason. but he did have two other potential HOF and if you listen to upstair Kiwi lovers ... potentially a third.
But all of those things are arbitrary and lists likes these are subjective.
Some can take away points from Bird, Duncan and Wilt for not leading a repeat.
Amb can bash Kareem and Kobe for missing a playoffs in their "primes".
Some point to rings, while others will yell "Horry" when you do.
None is more valid than the other which is why I thought it funny amb spent days qualifying the "difference' between playoffs vs ringing or repeating when both can be called team accomplishments and or pinned/credited to the star player of that team.
Some would use stats but some players are better in PER some in Win shares.

Each person has their own list and criteria ...why waste time arguing why someone else's is wrong? Just argue why you did your own ranking some will agree some won't and move on. Who cares? Who your own or some hacks rankings are?

[Cry Havoc]

Pretty high just above kobe and Shaq below magic kareem mj for sure but i also place him over Bird

Can I ask why below Magic? Duncan's been a dominant player for all 18 seasons. Magic wasn't a terrible defender because of his versatility, but he was nowhere near the two way player Duncan was and had a much shorter career.

I think Magic and Bird are really damn close, honestly. It's hard for me to split the difference between them... most people forget about how much of a fucking monster Bird was. Durant is almost considered a "big" today, meanwhile Larry averaged 10 boards per game for his career. That's insanity. 24/10/6, even with an inflated pace, is just bonkers.

But knowing what Duncan has done over the course of his career, and how he's a force on both sides almost every single night for 18 seasons, is almost unparalleled. I think he seriously deserves top 3 consideration. To me, Jordan is first followed closely by Kareem, and #3 is wide open for debate for a while, depending on how high LeBron ascends. To me there's just no clear cut #3.

[Aztecfan03]

Thats a fair point but I think they've got Lebron ranked way too low. Several players are obviously getting a nostalgia vote.

Never in our lifetime will another player average 36, 13, and 9 assists in the finals. Lebron's combination of absurd athleticism, size and high basketball IQ will never be duplicated. He's not the SCORER that MJ, Kobe or Durant were/is but he's easily the best overall player to ever play the game.

Tim Duncan? Please.

:rollin

Is that you, apalisoc?

[Kawhitstorm]

FYI: LeBron shot 39% in the Finals so his numbers are bloated. No perimeter player will match Jordan's destruction of the #1 seed Suns who were led by MVP Barkley in the 93 Finals. (Wade in '06 is tainted)

[Killakobe81]

Can I ask why below Magic? Duncan's been a dominant player for all 18 seasons. Magic wasn't a terrible defender because of his versatility, but he was nowhere near the two way player Duncan was and had a much shorter career.

I think Magic and Bird are really damn close, honestly. It's hard for me to split the difference between them... most people forget about how much of a fucking monster Bird was. Durant is almost considered a "big" today, meanwhile Larry averaged 10 boards per game for his career. That's insanity. 24/10/6, even with an inflated pace, is just bonkers.

But knowing what Duncan has done over the course of his career, and how he's a force on both sides almost every single night for 18 seasons, is almost unparalleled. I think he seriously deserves top 3 consideration. To me, Jordan is first followed closely by Kareem, and #3 is wide open for debate for a while, depending on how high LeBron ascends. To me there's just no clear cut #3.

Duncan has not been dominant for 18 that is a lie. Around 2008-2010 he was not dominant at all tbh. To his credit he rediscovered his elite play the past few years but lets not exaggerate.

[Cry Havoc]

Duncan has not been dominant for 18 that is a lie. Around 2008-2010 he was not dominant at all tbh to his credit he rediscovered hos elite play but lets not exaggerate.

Um... okay, at worst he was a force defensively and still good for 15+ a game. It's not like he fell off a cliff in those years.

[Ashy Larry]

They did! They forgot Karl Malone.

This list is shit.


Yup. Can't forget Malone who was a monster. List is over.