Shaq: Which generation would win?

[SuperCam]

https://scontent-iad3-1.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xfa1/t51.2885-15/e35/12081098_437872549748082_1465418439_n.jpg

[SuperCam]

No one's beating that '00s team tbh... defense too stifling. Only the '80s squad could hang really. King James trump card though :toast

[Red Hawk #21]

Hmm...I think I'd go with the 90's team but I could see why one would go with the 2000's team.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

80's

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

No one's beating that '00s team tbh... defense too stifling. Only the '80s squad could hang really. King James trump card though :toast
Kobe and AI wouldn't pass

[MultiTroll]

No one's beating that '00s team tbh... defense too stifling.
Are we bound to the starters pictured? Or our choice as to not only the starters but the entire team?

[Mitch]

Shaq, being the greatest player of his generation, would cause quite a few problems for all the others. Having Timothy and Lebron just makes it unfair for the others. I might lean towards the 80s if it included Kareem, but he is a 70s player.

[SuperCam]

Kobe and AI wouldn't pass


Replace AI with Kidd or Nash, tbh.

[lefty]

80s and 90s imo

[SuperCam]

'60s team is a sleeper, tbh. Wilt would get whatever he wanted and no one could score over him and Russ.

[benefactor]

Remove Malone off the 90's team...slide Dream to PF and put D-Rob at C. Start Pippen at SF. Of course you counter that by taking out Iverson and adding Kidd to the 00's team.

Would be a hell of a series.

[lefty]

:lol at Anthony Davis' face

"fuck me, why am I playing with all those chuckers ?"

[SpursforSix]

Tough call. I think I like the 80's.

I don't think the 2000's because of all the one on one players. Although Iverson was a good passer. If you put him on a team with better players, I think he gets to 10 a game easy.

[Infinite_limit]

Is James actually 2000 decade? No Titles or MVPs in the time span

[lefty]

Tough call. I think I like the 80's.

I don't think the 2000's because of all the one on one players. Although Iverson was a good passer. If you put him on a team with better players, I think he gets to 10 a game easy.
I agree tbh; AI had shitty offensive teammates

Who was he going to defer to?

:lol Eric Snow?
:lol Aaron McKie?
:lol Lynch?
:lol Dikembe ?
:lol Tyrone Hill?
:lol Kevin Ollie ?
:lol J Jones ?
:lol Raja Bell ?

What an offensive powerhouse :lol

[Infinite_limit]

1996 Bulls > 2010s

[SuperCam]

Is James actually 2000 decade? No Titles or MVPs in the time span

He won MVP 2010

[TheGreatYacht]

00's in a quick painless sweep over any other team

[Red Hawk #21]

:lol at Anthony Davis' face

"fuck me, why am I playing with all those chuckers ?"

:lol funny way to look at it tbh

"These niggas won't ever pass me the ball"

[SuperCam]

Goes to show how terrible that '10s team is, would they even win a single game against any of the others? If dellavescruba locked down Curry, i'd like to see what AI and Kobe would do. :lol

[daslicer]

Talent wise the '10's team is by far the worst.

[SpursforSix]

Talent wise the '10's team is by far the worst.

it doesn't even make sense. Durant is the PF and Hardin is SF?

[313]

On the 10s team I'd replace AD with D cousins or else there would be no post play then put AD at PF, kd at SF, Harden at SG, and Stephen at pg. Casual fans love WB but he would not be a good fit on that team.

For the 10s team, I'd drop Kobe for 32 ppg tmac (03 or 04?) And AI with Kidd. AI was a good passer but he was a shooting guard at the end of the day...

[SpursforSix]

On the 10s team I'd replace AD with D cousins or else there would be no post play then put AD at PF, kd at SF, Harden at SG, and Stephen at pg. Casual fans love WB but he would not be a good fit on that team.

For the 10s team, I'd drop Kobe for 32 ppg tmac (03 or 04?) And AI with Kidd. AI was a good passer but he was a shooting guard at the end of the day...

that' a better 2010 line up but I think they'd still get destroyed. I like KD but he'd have a hard time dealing with those other SF>

[Arcadian]

The real 2000s team:

PG McGrady
SG Bryant
SF Garnett
PF Duncan
C Shaq

Lebron should be on the 2010s because his best season was 2012.

[313]

that' a better 2010 line up but I think they'd still get destroyed. I like KD but he'd have a hard time dealing with those other SF>
He'd outplay every matchup except Larry and Bron and he's proven he can match brons output(30 ppg in the 2012 finals). But yeah they'd get destroyed because of other positions. I think Harden is in for his best season this year yet, and he's improved on D, but he's no match for players like tmac and Jordan. Cousins and AD are too young so the jury is still out on whether they could hang or not..and curry would have a lot of trouble getting open...

With all that said though, there's a lot of spacing and that team could get ridiculously hot for one series.

[SpursforSix]

He'd outplay every matchup except Larry and Bron and he's proven he can match brons output(30 ppg in the 2012 finals). But yeah they'd get destroyed because of other positions. I think Harden is in for his best season this year yet, and he's improved on D, but he's no match for players like tmac and Jordan. Cousins and AD are too young so the jury is still out on whether they could hang or not..and curry would have a lot of trouble getting open...

With all that said though, there's a lot of spacing and that team could get ridiculously hot for one series.

IDK. I think Barkley would be a tough matchup for KD. Barkley muscled down true centers. He'd kill Durant down low.

But maybe in time, that lineup looks better. Like you said, they're young. Just looking at them on that graphic with the other legends, makes them seem out of place.

[Infinite_limit]

Bench

PG: Payton/Penny
SG: Drexler/Miller
SF: Pippen
PF: Barkley/Rodman
C: Robinson/Ewing

[HemisfairArena]

You're gonna put Hakeem (who curb stomped Shaq in the Finals) and MJ on the same team?,,,no one beats them. 90's easily,,,

[AlexJones]

2000 would facefuck the 90's. Also, Iverson replaced with Steve Nash.

[HarlemHeat37]

2000s with Nash > 90s > 2010s > 80s > D1 Basketball random 5-man unit > WNBA team > 70s > High School Senior 5-man unit > 60s

[HemisfairArena]

90's has the best SG and best player of all time in MJ to go along with a top 2 center of all time in Hakeem,,,also a top 2 PF of all time in Malone,,,,a top 2 PG of all time only behind Magic in Stockton and the top 3 PF of all time in Barkley and that team wouldn't win?,,,,lmao,,,,to many youngsters on here picking the 2000'.

[Kawhitstorm]

Barkley would bust LeBron's ass in the post & dare him to shoot jumpers on the other end.

[SuperCam]

2000s with Nash > 90s > 2010s > 80s > D1 Basketball random 5-man unit > WNBA team > 70s > High School Senior 5-man unit > 60s

Wilt would shit all over every big today

Nigga was dominating pickup games at 50 :wow

[Kawhitstorm]

Wilt would shit all over every big today

Nigga was dominating pickup games at 50 :wow

Muphucka couldn't shoot FTs. 2010s team would kill the 60s team by exchanging 3s w/ Wilt's bricks.

[Kidd K]

In order:

90's team (with possibly DRob or Ewing instead of Malone, Hakeem at PF)
00's team (with Chris Paul instead of Allen Iverson)
80's team (with perhaps Gervin instead of Isiah, Magic at PG obv. He isn't a SG)
70's team (tbh this team is actually pretty impressive.)
10's team (too many primarily jumpshooters and no answer for all those elite bigs)
60's team (skill gap too big)

[100%duncan]

:lol at Anthony Davis' face

"fuck me, why am I playing with all those chuckers ?"



:lol funny way to look at it tbh

"These niggas won't ever pass me the ball"

:lol

[KL2]

You're gonna put Hakeem (who curb stomped Shaq in the Finals) and MJ on the same team?,,,no one beats them. 90's easily,,,

Shaq was barely 2-3 years pro and Olajuwon didn't exactly shut him down, Shaq put up 28, 12 & 6 against him.

The problem with using past performances of new vs old generation is that the older generation usually has a big advantage due to experience.


Each new generation takes time to reach their primes.

The first 5 years or so generally consist of:
-Filling out physically
-Adapting to NBA basketball and the speed of the game
-Adapting to the playoffs
-Honing their skills each summer and getting better

And a bunch of other shit.


Aldridge took about 7 years to get to 270+lbs, KD took years to get to 240+, Lebron took years to get to 270+, Davis is up to 250+ from 220lbs in 3 years, etc. the new generation takes time to develop.

Meanwhile the vets, while past their primes, have a wealth of experience which gives them a huge advantage over that younger generation. Another example would be Olajuwon vs BOS, they completely picked apart Olajuwon's team due to a lack of experience. However had that been prime Olajuwon, he would've utterly destroyed that Celtics team.

[Kawhitstorm]

00's team (with Chris Paul instead of Allen Iverson)

10's team (too many primarily jumpshooters and no answer for all those elite bigs)


Chris Paul only made the All-Star team twice pre-2010. The best point guard for the first half of the 2000s was Kidd & Nash was mid 2000s then Chris Paul took the crown. Folks used to argue Deron Williams was better than Chris Paul before Deron left Utah. If anything considering LeBron is part of the 2000s team I would put Wade as the point guard since he dominated for 5+ year in the 2000s, won a championship w/ an epic Finals performance plus his peak is also better than the rest.

For the 90s team, I would take Payton over Stockton b/c Payton is the best all-around point guard to play the game & beat Stockton/Malone in their primes while eating Stockton's lunch then followed it up by suffocating Jordan in 96 Finals like no other. Let's also not forget Payton used to own Hakeem's Rockets.

[KL2]

As far as rankings go, anything pre 90's gets killed.

1. 00's team, too fucking big, that's some insane size
2. 10's or 90's. If Davis were in his prime I'd take them for sure over the 90's, I also felt both these teams could've been constructed better.

Malone-Barkley-Stockton would all get torn apart on the perimeter, the only 2 defenders would be Jordan and Olajuwon, and Jordan never went up against the type of perimeter players there are today, nor did Olajuwon. It'd be a shoot out, 90's have the post advantage but the 10's a huge perimeter advantage, it'd be raining 3's all day and it wouldn't stop.

[spurraider21]

60's - russell and wilt can't work together...
70's - maravich was flashy, but he doesn't belong on any all-decade team. he's the weak link on an otherwise strong 70's team
80's - magic and isaiah together? great talent, but dont like the fit
90's - strong but how can you actually call chuck a SF?
00's - cant trust iverson at all... and a kobe/iverson backcourt is pretty cancerous. duncan/shaq wouldn't get touches
10's - davis can't hang with ANY of the centers he'd be up against. lol at harden defending all timers. this team gets waxed

i like 70's and 90's

[Caltex2]

Bench

PG: Payton/Penny
SG: Drexler/Miller
SF: Pippen
PF: Barkley/Rodman
C: Robinson/Ewing

Penny didn't play at a high enough level long enough to make the squad.

[Ashy Larry]

I agree tbh; AI had shitty offensive teammates

Who was he going to defer to?

:lol Eric Snow?
:lol Aaron McKie?
:lol Lynch?
:lol Dikembe ?
:lol Tyrone Hill?
:lol Kevin Ollie ?
:lol J Jones ?
:lol Raja Bell ?

What an offensive powerhouse :lol

lefty with the goods. No way they should have made it to the finals in '01

[Ashy Larry]

Definitely the 2000's squad.

[Kidd K]

Chris Paul only made the All-Star team twice pre-2010. The best point guard for the first half of the 2000s was Kidd & Nash was mid 2000s then Chris Paul took the crown. Folks used to argue Deron Williams was better than Chris Paul before Deron left Utah. If anything considering LeBron is part of the 2000s team I would put Wade as the point guard since he dominated for 5+ year in the 2000s, won a championship w/ an epic Finals performance plus his peak is also better than the rest.

For the 90s team, I would take Payton over Stockton b/c Payton is the best all-around point guard to play the game & beat Stockton/Malone in their primes while eating Stockton's lunch then followed it up by suffocating Jordan in 96 Finals like no other. Let's also not forget Payton used to own Hakeem's Rockets.

All star appearances don't really matter to me. Imo Chris Paul was the MVP the season Kobe won his. . .and that was in the 00's. Chris Paul was already good (and you don't see Paul on the 10's list, so he's fair game for 00's list imo). Kidd was great about as long as Paul in the 00's. Both of them have overlap to different decades. I like Paul's skillset a bit more than Kidd's. More of an offensive weapon shooting the ball himself. No knock on Kidd, but I think Kidd's primary attribute is leadership and the team already has Duncan and LeBron. His big skill over Paul is rebounding. . .but you have Shaq and Duncan, two top 10 GOATs.

90's I definitely would not take Payton. Stockton is a better playmaker and outside shooter (which that team needs since literally the other 4 shit on people in the post already), and is a very good defender too. Stock is excellent man. Don't attribute Payton to "stopping Hakeem" because he never defended him. As for Payton beating the Jazz. . .you realize Payton's Sonics got dumpstered by an 8 seed in the first round while at full strength, right? Full strength and their team basically in it's prime. They typically didn't get out of the first or 2nd round, unlike the Jazz.

I like Gary Payton, but no way I am taking him over John Stockton. I can't think of a single team composition that I'd prefer Payton on over Stockton. Dude was extremely efficient and very good on both ends of the floor. He is the prototype PG imo. Exactly what you want out of that position.

[DAF86]

Why would Lebron be considered an '00 player? He's having his best years on the '10, tbh.

[DAF86]

Iverson is my favourite player of all-time but he is overrated as fuck. If you actually want to win, your team would be better off with other guards from the '00s like Kidd, Nash, Ginobili, among others.

[baseline bum]

Remove Malone off the 90's team...slide Dream to PF and put D-Rob at C. Start Pippen at SF. Of course you counter that by taking out Iverson and adding Kidd to the 00's team.

Would be a hell of a series.

I'd much rather have Paul on the 00 team than Iverson or Kidd.

[Killakobe81]

All star appearances don't really matter to me. Imo Chris Paul was the MVP the season Kobe won his. . .and that was in the 00's. Chris Paul was already good (and you don't see Paul on the 10's list, so he's fair game for 00's list imo). Kidd was great about as long as Paul in the 00's. Both of them have overlap to different decades. I like Paul's skillset a bit more than Kidd's. More of an offensive weapon shooting the ball himself. No knock on Kidd, but I think Kidd's primary attribute is leadership and the team already has Duncan and LeBron. His big skill over Paul is rebounding. . .but you have Shaq and Duncan, two top 10 GOATs.

90's I definitely would not take Payton. Stockton is a better playmaker and outside shooter (which that team needs since literally the other 4 shit on people in the post already), and is a very good defender too. Stock is excellent man. Don't attribute Payton to "stopping Hakeem" because he never defended him. As for Payton beating the Jazz. . .you realize Payton's Sonics got dumpstered by an 8 seed in the first round while at full strength, right? Full strength and their team basically in it's prime. They typically didn't get out of the first or 2nd round, unlike the Jazz.

I like Gary Payton, but no way I am taking him over John Stockton. I can't think of a single team composition that I'd prefer Payton on over Stockton. Dude was extremely efficient and very good on both ends of the floor. He is the prototype PG imo. Exactly what you want out of that position.

I get some of your reasoning but you underestimate the versatility of Gp's game. At times in the finals ... he defended MJ as good as any guard ever has. And he used to routinely dominate Stockton head-to-head as well. Stockton had absolutely no shot of ever guarding anyone of MJ's caliber ...I dont he could guard Wade or Kobe either. IF I wanted the quintessential PG and more consistent outside shooting I take Stockton ... but if I wanted the better defender, quicker faster taller player it would be GP.

in these hypothetical match-ups tough to say who is greater but to me the defensive versatility of the 90's (with GP) and the 00's (Lebron) does give them an edge. I am of coursed biased a bit to the 80's but truth be told unless I can steal young MJ to replace Isiah and place him at SG they probably could not beat and of those swuads outside of the 70's 60's and maybe the 2010's ...

[Killakobe81]

lefty with the goods. No way they should have made it to the finals in '01

East was weak and as shitty asthey were on offense that is a great defensive team which is how they won ...

[Kawhitstorm]

All star appearances don't really matter to me. Imo Chris Paul was the MVP the season Kobe won his. . .and that was in the 00's. Chris Paul was already good (and you don't see Paul on the 10's list, so he's fair game for 00's list imo). Kidd was great about as long as Paul in the 00's. Both of them have overlap to different decades. I like Paul's skillset a bit more than Kidd's. More of an offensive weapon shooting the ball himself. No knock on Kidd, but I think Kidd's primary attribute is leadership and the team already has Duncan and LeBron. His big skill over Paul is rebounding. . .but you have Shaq and Duncan, two top 10 GOATs.

90's I definitely would not take Payton. Stockton is a better playmaker and outside shooter (which that team needs since literally the other 4 shit on people in the post already), and is a very good defender too. Stock is excellent man. Don't attribute Payton to "stopping Hakeem" because he never defended him. As for Payton beating the Jazz. . .you realize Payton's Sonics got dumpstered by an 8 seed in the first round while at full strength, right? Full strength and their team basically in it's prime. They typically didn't get out of the first or 2nd round, unlike the Jazz.

I like Gary Payton, but no way I am taking him over John Stockton. I can't think of a single team composition that I'd prefer Payton on over Stockton. Dude was extremely efficient and very good on both ends of the floor. He is the prototype PG imo. Exactly what you want out of that position.

LMAO, Stockton being utterly dominated by Payton was the reason the Jazz lost to the Sonics. Stockton 9/7/2 (39%) Payton 20/6/5 (50%). They were both in their primes so no excuses. Put Payton on the Jazz & Malone would have a chip b/c Jordan wouldn't dominate the Jazz. Payton made Kemp a household name so there is no reason he couldn't play w/ Malone. As far as the Rockets, Payton was the best player in the series when the Sonics defeated the Rockets in 96. They don't play the same position but Payton outplayed Hakeem. The Jazz used to get their ass handed to them by the Rockets b/c Stockton couldn't dominate wack ass Kenny Smith (94, 95). It was only after Kenny Smith left the Jazz beat the Rockets (97).

Payton was a better defender, better scorer, better leader, better post-up player & caused matchup headaches. Stockton was a better shooter/passer but not by a margin that would make me choose him over Payton.

The reason the Sonics were able to take two games from the Bulls was b/c George Karl finally let Payton guard Jordan when the Sonics were on the verge of getting swept. Payton outplayed Jordan in the final 3 games & it was Rodman that bailed out Jordan. The Nuggets upset the Sonics b/c Mutombo owned Kemp in the paint & the Nuggets actually were a very good team ala the 2011 Grizz (People forget that they pushed the same Jazz team that obliterated the Admiral led Spurs to 7 games & Stockton was mediocre in Gm 7).

As far as Chris Paul, Wade deserves to be on the 2000s team over him since they have Barkley as a small-forward on the 90s team. Wade was essentially a point guard before Lebron took his talents to South Beach & Chris Paul would be playing w/ LeBron on the 2000s team thus he wouldn't be the point guard anyways. It all comes down to Wade being a better combo guard than Paul & also being more accomplished in the 2000s than Paul.

[HarlemHeat37]

It would be interesting to make these teams and consider the actual fit, tbh..

Chris Paul would be an awful fit with these teams, so would Lebron, tbh..obviously an Iverson/Kobe backcourt would be a disaster, too..

[spurraider21]

its like they intentionally tried to fuck up some of these teams... barkley at the 3, bill russell at the 4, magic/isaiah at the 2...

the only squads that are properly assembled by position are the 70's and 00's... but maravich is garbage and kobe/iverson is just lol

[HarlemHeat37]

Any team with Dad Killer needs to have Scottie on it, too, tbh..needs Scottie to hold his hand..

[Killakobe81]

It would be interesting to make these teams and consider the actual fit, tbh..

Chris Paul would be an awful fit with these teams, so would Lebron, tbh..obviously an Iverson/Kobe backcourt would be a disaster, too..

Great points ...never got the CP3/Lebron Pipe dreams ...wade and Lebron struggled to work ideally if you have a play-making forward like Lebron the last thing you want is a ball dominant PG that is why I am not 100% cure the Cavs will win. If they do it's because Kyrie stayed healthy and also became a knock down shooter off the skip pass. Right now he shoots best in rhythm off the bounce ...

Same with these teams. David Robinson may get some hate on here but his mid-range j, qucikness and speed would be a better fit than Ewing and maybe even Hakeem when you are talking "super teams". Plus he has already shown he can defer to stars on the origina Dream Team and is willing to subjugate his game for a true alpha. To many alphas on one squad is not ideal ...

My all 80's Team

C Kareem
F Bird
F Nique
G Isiah
G Magic

Not a great defensive team ... but offensively the goods. Nique is on it for speed/athelticism.

90's

C Hakeem
F Barkley
F Malone
G Payton
G MJ

I know Pippen "fits" better but how can you choose a 90's team and leave off Chuck? Besides you have 3 Goat rebounders plus two DPOTY in the backcourt. 3 point shooting is a weakness here though ...

2000's

C Shaq
F Duncan
F Lebron
G Kobe
G Kidd

3 point shooting is also weak but Kobe/Lebron/kidd all can hit them. passing on this team would be as good or maybe even better than the 80's team. all 5 players are great on the block and or in the paint. Not sure even MJ with Hakeem could beat this team tbh.

[SpursforSix]

Great points ...never got the CP3/Lebron Pipe dreams ...wade and Lebron struggled to work ideally if you have a play-making forward like Lebron the last thing you want is a ball dominant PG that is why I am not 100% cure the Cavs will win. If they do it's because Kyrie stayed healthy and also became a knock down shooter off the skip pass. Right now he shoots best in rhythm off the bounce ...

Same with these teams. David Robinson may get some hate on here but his mid-range j, qucikness and speed would be a better fit than Ewing and maybe even Hakeem when you are talking "super teams". Plus he has already shown he can defer to stars on the origina Dream Team and is willing to subjugate his game for a true alpha. To many alphas on one squad is not ideal ...

My all 80's Team

C Kareem
F Bird
F Nique
G Isiah
G Magic

Not a great defensive team ... but offensively the goods. Nique is on it for speed/athelticism.



I was a huge Nique fan. But in terms of fitting on this team, I like Worthy.

[TheGreatYacht]

Fuck Hakeem

[HarlemHeat37]

Nobody can fuck with that 90s in regards to the "All-Scumbag Team", though, tbh..Hakeem, Karl Malone and Dad Killer :lmao..

[spurraider21]

Great points ...never got the CP3/Lebron Pipe dreams ...wade and Lebron struggled to work ideally if you have a play-making forward like Lebron the last thing you want is a ball dominant PG that is why I am not 100% cure the Cavs will win. If they do it's because Kyrie stayed healthy and also became a knock down shooter off the skip pass. Right now he shoots best in rhythm off the bounce ...

Same with these teams. David Robinson may get some hate on here but his mid-range j, qucikness and speed would be a better fit than Ewing and maybe even Hakeem when you are talking "super teams". Plus he has already shown he can defer to stars on the origina Dream Team and is willing to subjugate his game for a true alpha. To many alphas on one squad is not ideal ...

My all 80's Team

C Kareem
F Bird
F Nique
G Isiah
G Magic

Not a great defensive team ... but offensively the goods. Nique is on it for speed/athelticism.

90's

C Hakeem
F Barkley
F Malone
G Payton
G MJ

I know Pippen "fits" better but how can you choose a 90's team and leave off Chuck? Besides you have 3 Goat rebounders plus two DPOTY in the backcourt. 3 point shooting is a weakness here though ...

2000's

C Shaq
F Duncan
F Lebron
G Kobe
G Kidd

3 point shooting is also weak but Kobe/Lebron/kidd all can hit them. passing on this team would be as good or maybe even better than the 80's team. all 5 players are great on the block and or in the paint. Not sure even MJ with Hakeem could beat this team tbh.
i would cut malone. with this caliber a team, you aren't going to have a 2 man game with him and stock

[Killakobe81]

I was a huge Nique fan. But in terms of fitting on this team, I like Worthy.

Better team player. More reliable mid-range jumper. Good speed and athleticism though no one was on Nique's level except MJ ...
But worthy was the better post player by far ...

A case can be made for James and McHale ... but the 80's squad really need more explosiveness so I went for one of the most explosive players of all time.

[Killakobe81]

i would cut malone. with this caliber a team, you aren't going to have a 2 man game with him and stock

That would be a good choice but without Malone what little chance would they have vs. Shaq/duncan/Lebron with only Hakeem? Lebron at SF is almost as big as hakeem ...if the goal is just picking the best "fit" you take Pippen. if you want to compete with 2000's you need Malone. against the 80's Chuck and Pippen would be fine vs. Bird/nique.

[Kawhitstorm]

Same with these teams. David Robinson may get some hate on here but his mid-range j, qucikness and speed would be a better fit than Ewing and maybe even Hakeem when you are talking "super teams". Plus he has already shown he can defer to stars on the origina Dream Team and is willing to subjugate his game for a true alpha. To many alphas on one squad is not ideal ...



Admiral beta ass would be a good fit since he wouldn't be part of a power struggle & won't mind doing the dirty stuff.

[Red Hawk #21]

Me and a friend are discussing the 90s and 2000s team match up right now. He thinks the key matchups are Iverson-Stockton and Lebron-Barkley. No way in hell could Stockton stop a prime A.I, but the Barkley-Lebron matchup is interesting though. Both of them play a similar brand of 'Bully Ball", LeBron has more range but I think Chuck is better in the post. I think everyone in the 90s-2000s matchup somewhat cancels one another out in some way though tbh.

Just watched this again to remind myself of how beastly Chuck was :wow
_v9XE7BijJA

[HemisfairArena]

Me and a friend are discussing the 90s and 2000s team match up right now. He thinks the key matchups are Iverson-Stockton and Lebron-Barkley. No way in hell could Stockton stop a prime A.I, but the Barkley-Lebron matchup is interesting though. Both of them play a similar brand of 'Bully Ball", LeBron has more range but I think Chuck is better in the post. I think everyone in the 90s-2000s matchup somewhat cancels one another out in some way though tbh.

Just watched this again to remind myself of how beastly Chuck was :wow
_v9XE7BijJA

No one could stop Hakeem or MJ on the other side,,,,

[Red Hawk #21]

No one could stop Hakeem or MJ on the other side,,,,

Exactly, everyone cancels one another out imo.

[HemisfairArena]

Exactly, everyone cancels one another out imo.

But see they don't cancel out,,,Hakeem would crush Shaq,,,MJ would crush Kobrick,,,Duncan would crush Malone,,,LeBron and Barkley are a wash,,,and Stockton is better than A.I.,,,Stockton is a pure PG. Not a SG running the point like Iverson was. Stockton would have dished to his heart's content,,

[HemisfairArena]

Even one better, Hawk,,,look back at this thread and see the people replacing A.I with Nash,,,,Nash was a poor man's John Stockton. Stockton was one of the top 3 point guards of All Time,,,(Magic, Stockton, Oscar)

[Red Hawk #21]

But see they don't cancel out,,,Hakeem would crush Shaq,,,MJ would crush Kobrick,,,Duncan would crush Malone,,,LeBron and Barkley are a wash,,,and Stockton is better than A.I.,,,Stockton is a pure PG. Not a SG running the point like Iverson was. Stockton would have dished to his heart's content,,

Idk man, yes Hakeem's footwork and endless fakes would leave Shaq confused as hell, but Hakeem would be a victim to Shaq's brute force on the other end. MJ would win the matchup with his heir Kobe Bryant, but no way it would be some kind of domination, prime Kobe was a monster in his own right. And I don't see how Mailman would get dominated by Timmy? And Stockton being better than A.I is a different argument. Do you think Stockton can effectively guard a prime Allen Iverson? I don't think he could.

[Kawhitstorm]

Idk man, yes Hakeem's footwork and endless fakes would leave Shaq confused as hell, but Hakeem would be a victim to Shaq's brute force on the other end. MJ would win the matchup with his heir Kobe Bryant, but no way it would be some kind of domination, prime Kobe was a monster in his own right. And I don't see how Mailman would get dominated by Timmy? And Stockton being better than A.I is a different argument. Do you think Stockton can effectively guard a prime Allen Iverson? I don't think he could.

Kevin Johnson used to run circles around Stockton & actually outplayed both PRIME Magic/Stockton in 90 postseason. If it wasn't for nagging injuries (ala Wade) KJ would have had a 1st ballot HOFer. Dude was a beast even after he got injured & the Suns would have beaten the Bulls in 93 if he wasn't limited by a hernia.

[Kawhitstorm]

LeBron has more range but I think Chuck is better in the post. I think everyone in the 90s-2000s matchup somewhat cancels one another out in some way though tbh.


Barkley was as good a mid-range shooter as LeBron & there is no doubt he would have destroyed LeBron in the paint, Lebron couldn't even check David West:lol.

[HemisfairArena]

I believe John Stockton was a 5 time 2nd team All Defensive team in his career,,,,and I think Allen Iverson never made any defensive team in his career,,,once again he was an SG running the point. Do you realize Stockton has almost 16,000 assists,,,over 3,000 assists more than the 2nd place guy in NBA history? Its not even debatable,,,Stockton>>>>Iverson.

[Red Hawk #21]

I believe John Stockton was a 5 time 2nd team All Defensive team in his career,,,,and I think Allen Iverson never made any defensive team in his career,,,once again he was an SG running the point. Do you realize Stockton has almost 16,000 assists,,,over 3,000 assists more than the 2nd place guy in NBA history? Its not even debatable,,,Stockton>>>>Iverson.

I'm not making the argument about who the better player is. I'm making the argument that Stockton would get smoked by a prime Allen Iverson. Did it look like Stockton was able to guard Allen Iverson here?

xZ56HdhUgDY

[HemisfairArena]

I'm not making the argument about who the better player is. I'm making the argument that Stockton would get smoked by a prime Allen Iverson. Did it look like Stockton was able to guard Allen Iverson here?

xZ56HdhUgDY

But youre making isolated arguments like it would be a one on one show,,,Stockton fits the 90s team perfectly and they crush all,,,,

[Kawhitstorm]

But youre making isolated arguments like it would be a one on one show,,,Stockton fits the 90s team perfectly and they crush all,,,,

Again, Iverson can't play w/ other ball dominant players & both would get abused by bigger guards. The solution is Gary Payton.

[Red Hawk #21]

Again, Iverson can't play w/ other ball dominant players & both would get abused by bigger guards. The solution is Gary Payton.

What makes you say that?

[Kawhitstorm]

What makes you say that?

The Team USA disaster & his years playing alongside Melo.

[Red Hawk #21]

The Team USA disaster & his years playing alongside Melo.

I'm too lazy to look it up but I'm pretty sure Iverson averaged a bit over 7 APG on the Nuggets. Plus, I recall him playing off the ball a lot alongside guys like Anthony Carter and Steve Blake. Iverson never needed the ball in his hands to be effective, dude dominated the basketball at times because he didn't trust his scrub teammates imo.

[Russo21]

60s and 70s before my time

80s team looks good but the 90s and 00s big men would take them easy. Another problem with the 80s team, Isiah wasn't a good 3pt shooter (under 30% from 3) Magic barely shot over 30%. Not quite enough shooting on that team other than Larry.

90s has some weird choices. Only 1 good 3 point shooter on the team? Yes all 5 are good players but that's not a well-balanced 5. You have to cut either Chuck or Malone and add a 3pt wing who can defend because the spacing would suck. Insert, Pippen, Hill, Rice, Miller instead.

00s replace AI with a higher % 3pt shooting PG for spacing and nobody is touching that team. AI shot like 42% from the field and only 30% for downtown. Replace him with constant triple double threat JKIDD who developed a 3pt shot into the 40% some seasons or Nash, despite his defensive woes was 49% from the field and 43% from downtown. No disrespect for AI, just need a more balanced squad. It’s not like the other 4 have any problem putting the ball in the basket.

10s has the opposite problem to the 80s team. All good 3pt shooters but only 1 player in Anthony Davis gives a shit about defense on that team.

Ill choose 00s with a different PG, once again no disrespect to AI, just need a better fit. It's not like that team is lacking in offensive firepower and they don't need AI scoring 30pts with terrible percentages, insert Kidd or Nash. Probably go with JKIDD as he made 3 All defensive teams, developed a 3PT shot and made all his team-mates better. A more rounded player than Nash.

Shaq
Duncan
LeBron
Kobe
Kidd

[Killakobe81]

Kevin Johnson used to run circles around Stockton & actually outplayed both PRIME Magic/Stockton in 90 postseason. If it wasn't for nagging injuries (ala Wade) KJ would have had a 1st ballot HOFer. Dude was a beast even after he got injured & the Suns would have beaten the Bulls in 93 if he wasn't limited by a hernia.

Magic wasnt prine in 1990

[Raven]

terribly made teams, the 2014 spurs would sweep all of them fairly easily. the 00 team would be amazing, but that backcourt just smells like cancer, ebola and stds all in one.

[ambchang]

I'm not making the argument about who the better player is. I'm making the argument that Stockton would get smoked by a prime Allen Iverson. Did it look like Stockton was able to guard Allen Iverson here?

xZ56HdhUgDY

Iverson is lucky pedo didn't body slam him the next game, giving him 40 stitches and a concussion.

that said, Stockton, as much as I loved watching him pay (despite how dirty he was) was at least slightly overrated as a defender. he had issues with those really quick point guards. KJ, Thomas and Hardaway would give Stockton some trouble due to their quickness, and as dirty as Stockton played, those players were sometimes just too quick for him to handle.

Iverson is as quick, if not quicker than any of them.


The Team USA disaster & his years playing alongside Melo.

Iverson actually did decently in the Olympics. he deferred a lot during the game. Iverson seemed to have no problems sharing the ball when he has another player he trusts. That is a small list, but he did decently there. His time with the Nuggets was more around him refusing to take a bench role.

That said, Iverson and Kobe in the same backcourt would be a disaster, they would be stealing the ball from each other, launching ill-advised, low percentage fade away 20 footers all day, while Duncan and Shaq are down low wondering what the hell is going on (well, maybe not Shaq, he's used to it).

[phxspurfan]

90s just bc they have teh GOAT

[ambchang]

If going by the proposed team, it really depends on matchups, but I would rank them:

90s - Jordan and Hakeem would be unstoppable, Stockton would distribute perfectly, Barkley and pedo can play the midrange game.
Weakness - pedo, Hakeem and Barkley all require a lot of space to operate, and would take out the driving lanes for Jordan, outside shooting is suspect, at best. I would have a team of Stockton, Jordan, Drexler, Robinson, Hakeem

00s - Huge lineup, Lebron doesn't really belong in this group as he's more of a 10. Lebron can handle most of the playmaking responsibilities with Kobe, while Iverson plays his natural SG position on offense. Duncan can take the high post while Shaq bully his way in the low post.

Weakness - Kobe / Iverson backcourt is a disaster, and Shaq takes up so much space down low that it will limit Iverson's drives. I would love to have Lebron here, but he really is a 10 guy. In that case, it would be Kidd, Kobe, Artest/Bowen/Prince, Garnett, Shaq. The SF position was just for defensive purposes. There are enough scorers on this team. No Shaq actually opens up the middle, and having Garnett there with Duncan will make this a monster defensive frontline.

60s - People sleep on this lineup because it was from so long ago, but Wilt and Russell will eat people alive. Baylor was really ahead of his time athletically, and West can score with the best of them, and can switch O/D roles with Oscar. The only question is really how athletic this team is. They were uber athletic in their days, but not sure if that holds true when compared to the other greats.

Weakness - small lineup. Their SF is 6'5", their SG is 6'2". Players like Jordan, Kobe, Lebron, Barkley, Westbrook will just destroy them.

80s - Bully ball in the middle, Moses and McHale will feast on the 10s and 70s teams inside, while noone can check Bird and Isiah. Three supreme playmakers on offense, and Magic can post up if need be. Thomas can play off guard like he did sometimes with Dumars with Magic handling the ball.

Weakness - Magic and Isiah requires the ball in their hands a bit, outside shooting is shaky outside of Bird, and he wasn't THAT good. Magic would be the weak link defensively, and Moses wasn't THAT great of a defender either. I'd probably go with a team of Magic, Moncrief, Bird, McHale and Moses

70s - Kareem never really matched up well with bully centers (see Moses and Hakeem), and every single team had one except the 10s team. Shaq will just bowl over Kareem. An old as dirt Wilt played Kareem well, a prime Wilt will likely have an advantage. Moses already proved he can take out Kareem by himself. Hayes was a scorer and not much else. Dr. J was great, but he is better served as a beta, Maravich was basically Jason Williams in the 70s, but Frazier is pretty much their only saving grace. Strong defensively and a great playmaker, almost like a mix between Payton and Nash. However, this team has NO outside shooting.

10s - Only reason the 70s team didn't finish last. Curry, Westbrook and Harden are all ball- dominant, so is KD, so unibrow will just be his Pelicans self, underused. Curry and
KD opens up the court and would rain threes all day, but they would be overmatched by every other team on defense. Other unibrow, there isn't one strong, or even above average defender amongst this group. Lebron in place of Harden will help quite a bit.

Oh, and :lol no the OKC Thunder, had three of the five 10s team players, and got nothing out of it.

[DAF86]

I'm too lazy to look it up but I'm pretty sure Iverson averaged a bit over 7 APG on the Nuggets. Plus, I recall him playing off the ball a lot alongside guys like Anthony Carter and Steve Blake. Iverson never needed the ball in his hands to be effective, dude dominated the basketball at times because he didn't trust his scrub teammates imo.

The fuck? :lmao

Why do you think Iverson went to shit so damn quickly? 'cause once his skills and physical atributes started to decline he wasn't able to adapt to a lesser role (meaning, he wasn't able to play without the ball in his hands).

Besides, it's not like he was so effective during his prime either. I love AI but he never played winning basketball.

[Kawhitstorm]

Magic wasnt prine in 1990

LoL, Magic was the MVP of the league for the 89-90 season:lmao

[Kawhitstorm]

I'm too lazy to look it up but I'm pretty sure Iverson averaged a bit over 7 APG on the Nuggets. Plus, I recall him playing off the ball a lot alongside guys like Anthony Carter and Steve Blake. Iverson never needed the ball in his hands to be effective, dude dominated the basketball at times because he didn't trust his scrub teammates imo.

Iverson was good enough to be an All-NBA point guard the issue was his game wasn't suited to be an off-guard. He could dominated the ball & give you 35/10 in his prime every time he stepped on the floor but he needed the ball in his hands along w/ being a high usage/high volume scorer. Iverson was also an excellent defender in college but his role tremendously changed in the NBA ala Westbrook. Someone like Ray Allen is better suited to play w/ other ball dominant players.

[Medvedenko]

Well it all depends on who's coaching this team.
80's with Riley
90's with Phil
00's with Pop
10's with ?

I'd go with the 00's.

[Kidd K]

LMAO, Stockton being utterly dominated by Payton was the reason the Jazz lost to the Sonics. Stockton 9/7/2 (39%) Payton 20/6/5 (50%). They were both in their primes so no excuses. Put Payton on the Jazz & Malone would have a chip b/c Jordan wouldn't dominate the Jazz. Payton made Kemp a household name so there is no reason he couldn't play w/ Malone. As far as the Rockets, Payton was the best player in the series when the Sonics defeated the Rockets in 96. They don't play the same position but Payton outplayed Hakeem. The Jazz used to get their ass handed to them by the Rockets b/c Stockton couldn't dominate wack ass Kenny Smith (94, 95). It was only after Kenny Smith left the Jazz beat the Rockets (97).

Payton was a better defender, better scorer, better leader, better post-up player & caused matchup headaches. Stockton was a better shooter/passer but not by a margin that would make me choose him over Payton.

The reason the Sonics were able to take two games from the Bulls was b/c George Karl finally let Payton guard Jordan when the Sonics were on the verge of getting swept. Payton outplayed Jordan in the final 3 games & it was Rodman that bailed out Jordan. The Nuggets upset the Sonics b/c Mutombo owned Kemp in the paint & the Nuggets actually were a very good team ala the 2011 Grizz (People forget that they pushed the same Jazz team that obliterated the Admiral led Spurs to 7 games & Stockton was mediocre in Gm 7).

As far as Chris Paul, Wade deserves to be on the 2000s team over him since they have Barkley as a small-forward on the 90s team. Wade was essentially a point guard before Lebron took his talents to South Beach & Chris Paul would be playing w/ LeBron on the 2000s team thus he wouldn't be the point guard anyways. It all comes down to Wade being a better combo guard than Paul & also being more accomplished in the 2000s than Paul.

Rather than cherry picking a series, let's look at all their stats.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stockjo01&p2=paytoga01

Stockton has gotten the better of Payton in their matchups both in the regular and postseasons statistically, though they were 2-2 in their series matchups. Speaking of the postseason, Payton's stats vs Stockton are heavily skewed due to the 2000 series where Stockton was old (had already been playing sub 30 mins for 2 years) and Payton was literally having his peak season. Despite that, look at how Stockton still got the better of him on average (notably doubling up his assist totals). Prior to that 2000 series where Payton fluffed up his averages vs an old John Stockton by a lot, he was much closer in PPG and scoring efficiency too.

Payton was a better leader? I disagree. Better scorer? Depends on your definition. I would gladly take Stockton's 13 PPG on 60.8% TS% over Payton's 16 PPG on 52.8% TS%. He's wasting a lot less possessions to get his points and is getting nearly double the assists with about the same turnovers. Better "post up player" is a useless fluff trait to compare. Who cares? He's a fucking PG. I'd rather those post touches go to Hakeem, Barkely, Jordan, and Malone/DRob/Ewing than a fucking PG. Stockton scored noticeably more efficiently, so Payton's post scoring doesn't really do anything to make up for that. Stockton not only scored efficiently himself but also made it easy for his teammates. Payton was nothing special as a playmaker compared to any upper tier PG and even some mid tiers.

Wade isn't a PG so no I don't think so. You also don't want a team loaded with mediocre 3pt shooters which is exactly what you'd have with Wade and Kobe. Chris Paul balances that team. Wade does not. Now if you wanna argue Wade over Kobe, feel free. It would make more sense.

[Kidd K]

I get some of your reasoning but you underestimate the versatility of Gp's game. At times in the finals ... he defended MJ as good as any guard ever has. And he used to routinely dominate Stockton head-to-head as well. Stockton had absolutely no shot of ever guarding anyone of MJ's caliber ...I dont he could guard Wade or Kobe either. IF I wanted the quintessential PG and more consistent outside shooting I take Stockton ... but if I wanted the better defender, quicker faster taller player it would be GP.

in these hypothetical match-ups tough to say who is greater but to me the defensive versatility of the 90's (with GP) and the 00's (Lebron) does give them an edge. I am of coursed biased a bit to the 80's but truth be told unless I can steal young MJ to replace Isiah and place him at SG they probably could not beat and of those swuads outside of the 70's 60's and maybe the 2010's ...

I'm not really underrating GP, it's more the matter of Stockton being more useful on most teams (especially that one) due to good shooting and stellar playmaking in addition to being a pretty good defender (underrated imo). If I were to select one for most NBA teams now, I think Stockton would be the better choice in most cases. For that team specifically, also Stockton. Very underrated player imo.

And yeah I agree, Isiah and Magic should not be there together (Magic over Isiah ofc). Young MJ or aging Gervin are better 80's choices for SG.

[Kawhitstorm]

Rather than cherry picking a series, let's look at all their stats.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=stockjo01&p2=paytoga01

Stockton has gotten the better of Payton in their matchups both in the regular and postseasons statistically, though they were 2-2 in their series matchups. Speaking of the postseason, Payton's stats vs Stockton are heavily skewed due to the 2000 series where Stockton was old (had already been playing sub 30 mins for 2 years) and Payton was literally having his peak season. Despite that, look at how Stockton still got the better of him on average (notably doubling up his assist totals). Prior to that 2000 series where Payton fluffed up his averages vs an old John Stockton by a lot, he was much closer in PPG and scoring efficiency too.

Payton was a better leader? I disagree. Better scorer? Depends on your definition. I would gladly take Stockton's 13 PPG on 60.8% TS% over Payton's 16 PPG on 52.8% TS%. He's wasting a lot less possessions to get his points and is getting nearly double the assists with about the same turnovers. Better "post up player" is a useless fluff trait to compare. Who cares? He's a fucking PG. I'd rather those post touches go to Hakeem, Barkely, Jordan, and Malone/DRob/Ewing than a fucking PG. Stockton scored noticeably more efficiently, so Payton's post scoring doesn't really do anything to make up for that. Stockton not only scored efficiently himself but also made it easy for his teammates. Payton was nothing special as a playmaker compared to any upper tier PG and even some mid tiers.

Wade isn't a PG so no I don't think so. You also don't want a team loaded with mediocre 3pt shooters which is exactly what you'd have with Wade and Kobe. Chris Paul balances that team. Wade does not. Now if you wanna argue Wade over Kobe, feel free. It would make more sense.

LoL, you do understand Stockton was already an All-NBA point guard when Payton came into the league? Payton came into the league as a defensive stopper & developed into a complete point guard eventually becoming a All-Star in his 4th season. Stockton/Payton had already faced each other twice in the postseason before Payton was ever an all-star so Stockton as an All-NBA point guard was supposed to get the better of him. Fast forward to 96 when they were BOTH All-NBA point guards & Payton destroyed him on both ends, it's not cherry picking but a fact that doesn't fit your narrative. In 2000, Payton's wing-man was 20 year old Rashard Lewis meanwhile Stockton was playing w/ Malone who was still a top 10 player but Payton still pushed the Jazz to the brink.

Stockton's assist totals were a result of them running PnR sets every time down the floor (ala Steve Nash w/ the Suns), to his credit Stockton put the ball on the money to the greatest roll player to play the game (Malone). Deron Williams was able to replicate it playing in the same system w/ none other than Carlos Boozer playing the roll man:lmao but we still have yet to see a point guard win DPOY before or since Payton retired.

Payton's ability to post-up was what created match-up headaches because he would bully smaller guards (most point guards) & blow by big guards.
-LoL @ Malone or Robinson being better post-up players than Payton when they were mediocre post-up players
-LoL @ PGs posting up not being valuable when that was Magic's main offensive arsenal (he killed Jordan on post-ups in the 91 Finals before Pippen switched on to him)

Just throw a 90s line-up of Payton/Jordan/Pippen/Hakeem/Robinson, to dominate a game Payton could just take out the opposing point guard & throw lobs all day to Hakeem/Robinson. I would like to see a guard get the ball past mid-court w/ Jordan/Payton/Pippen hounding him then being confronted by Hakeem/Robinson if he slipped through the cracks. We all saw how last season DPOY single handily wrecked last season Champs/MVP when they were on a roll by prevent him from running their sets:

D0_F_W6VAcY

Imagine having 5 Kahwis on the floor w/ Payton/Jordan/Pippen/Hakeem/Robinson. If you can't run your sets then you can't score.

[Ashy Larry]

East was weak and as shitty asthey were on offense that is a great defensive team which is how they won ...

conference was terrible. Still shouldn't have made it tonthenfinals with those horrible offensive sets and practically every one on their squad who mattered injured. Had me saying "who the hell is raja bell?"