The sublime truth of Islam

[Ghazi]

If I offer you a religion that gives you a pantheistic connection to nature, animals, and the Universe and gives you peace of mind, tranquility, and happiness at all times... would you be interested in this religion or consider me crazy? Here I will answer all questions about Islam, any including the politically incorrect areas... I will tell you that there is sublime truth in the Quran.

[Avante]

The truth about Islam is this...

Mohammad was a murderous tyrant, some scholars think he might have been bipolar. He lied about the Angel Gabriel, which makes Islam a gigantic hoax. There were nothing handed down to Mohammad from Allah using the Angel Gabriel as the middle man, that is a lie.

As you know the Koran is chocked full of violence towards those dreaded infidels.

I have an interesting book..."Why I'm Not A Muslim"....written by an x-Muslim who was raised in that world, he talks about why he had to get out. Then there's ...Inside The Kingdom....written by an American woman who married into the Bin Laden family and the mistake that was. Then there are those other 20 or so hooks I have read all talking about the primitive world that is Islam, the violence and disregard for life, including their own.

The world would be a far better place if the Middle East and Islam simply dried up and blew away. Killing people over cartoons, are you kidding me?

[Bynumite]

Fuck you and fuck your religion.

[Double-Up]

If I offer you a religion that gives you a pantheistic connection to nature, animals, and the Universe and gives you peace of mind, tranquility, and happiness at all times... would you be interested in this religion or consider me crazy? Here I will answer all questions about Islam, any including the politically incorrect areas... I will tell you that there is sublime truth in the Quran.

72 virgins right?...Pedophilia?...Polygamy? :lol

[Avante]

Public beheadings in Saudia Arabia.

Suicide bombers.

People stoned to death.

Want to die...just draw a picture of Mohammad.

A book full of....cut off...burn...chop...violence violence violence....towards the non believers.

Hey come on up to paradise, just kill yourself and some infidels, no biggie. We got virgins, a shit load of them ( I'd prefer experienced women myself)

[Avante]

Funny coming from a Christian who's religion is based upon the testimony of someone like Saul who was never around Jesus and also based upon the Bible being compiled hundreds of years after the passing of Jesus with certain parts being left out, not to mention the numerous bibles printed since with different versions. What is the real Christianity? Does anyone really know? Of course not. Its been doctored and changed for over 2000 years now. Who knows what the real Christianity was meant to be.

I'm no Christian and the Bible is a load of bullshit, ok?

[Ghazi]

You dont know the truth about Muhammad, Avante... youve been exposed to Islamophobia and misinformTion and may Allah guide you on the right path. Muhammad entered in a time of tribal warfare, treachery, and corruption amongst the Meccan Pagans and the Jews. Hence, he was obligated to fight at times and usually in self defense (offense was a strategy of war as well). In 8 years of wars, Muhammads campaigns only killed around 1000 men. Also, if he was such a tyrant why did he not become wealthy? At his death what little he had was given to charity.

[Ghazi]

Public beheadings in Saudia Arabia.

Suicide bombers.

People stoned to death.

Want to die...just draw a picture of Mohammad.

A book full of....cut off...burn...chop...violence violence violence....towards the non believers.

Hey come on up to paradise, just kill yourself and some infidels, no biggie. We got virgins, a shit load of them ( I'd prefer experienced women myself)

The Quran itself says perverted men will use the Quran to justify their own ambitions and crimes. What the WAhhabists (who are accused of doctored hadiths) do is no reflection on Allah and His Apostle and the Sublime Truth of Islam

[Ghazi]

When an ignorant man commits a crime and evokes Allahs name or justifies it to the Quran, do people not ponder whether it is the will of that mans ignorance or if its the will of Allah? Ive read the Quran numerous times, it does not call for forced conversions or murders. Theres a few confusing verses (fight in the Way of Allah, slay the idolaters) but when understood in the allegorical context rational men realize these are not orders to kill or impose Islam

[Double-Up]

72 virgins right?...Pedophilia?...Polygamy? :lol

[Ghazi]

Even if Muhammad was bipolar, you are forgetting that men like Mozart and Einstein were bipolar as well. Maybe bipolar in most men causes mood swings, obsessions, paranoia, pressurized speech, and things of the like... but its well known that bipolars are also highly creative, perceptive, and intelligent. Muhammad tapped into the best of his talents and he attributed it to The Divine rather than himself.

[Ghazi]

I have peace of mind, confidence, self esteem and feel connected with the Universe, nature, and the animals. This is Islam in its pure form. It is science, morality, philosophy, wisdom, justice, truth, reason.

[Ghazi]

Double-Up I will not debate with you. As Imam Ali (as) said: I never win debates against ignorant men, and I never lose debates against wise men.

[Ghazi]

People need to stop concentrating on "cultural Islam" and look for the Sublime Truth. Yes, we get it, most "Muslims" in this World give Islam a bad name. Why do you seek to slander Allah by pointing out the ignorance and stupidity of some men who dont know a lick about the Quran? First time i read quran I thought it was a "silly book of tales". I thought it was a figment of Muhammads imagination. Oh how little I knew.

[boutons_deux]

want "truth"? Check the Bible OT for the same level of craziness as the Koran

[Ghazi]

Islam does not teach forced conversions or beheadings. It teaches t do as Im doing now: Politely offer it to non-believers and not to get angry no matter what insults they throw at The Lord of the Expanding Universe

[Ghazi]

want "truth"? Check the Bible OT for the same level of craziness as the Koran

As a whole the Bible And Quran are literally uncomparable. Please show me a "crazy verse" and I will
give you the context, interpretation, or meNing if I can. The quran has a unique style and presentation that are just incredibly hard to mimic. Poetry was the big thing in Arabia at the time and the poets and Meccans were befuddled by Quranic majesty.

[Raven]

Muslims want virgins so they are not being judged for their incapability in bed and their small penises.

[phyzik]

Islam does not teach forced conversions or beheadings. It teaches t do as Im doing now: Politely offer it to non-believers and not to get angry no matter what insults they throw at The Lord of the Expanding Universe

Not sure what Quran you are reading...

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

I can easily find hundreds more, not only in the Quran but in the Hadith as well. Muhammad clearly spells out that islam is NOT about treating everyone equally. He even condemns believers who do NOT fight against the hypocrites (basically anyone not of the faith) and says people like you will end up in hell in verse 9:38-39. Ohh, and that horseshit about politely offering islam? you know what comes after that? Destruction after refusal.... It was what Osama Bin Laden did before 9/11. He invited America into islam. His justification was verse 17:16.

[Mal]

So my question is rather easy. How does religion allows rapes when women isnt covert in rags ?

[Ghazi]

Phyzik, you have to think about the deeper meanings of those verses. Arabic and Quran are littered with poetry and allegory. They are not literal commands for forced conversion... this is just how ignorant groups like to interpret it for their own agendas. Bin Laden justifies mass murder and says "cAuse Allah said so". Is this QurAn or Bin Ladens sickness? It is a confusing book for most men to read, and some extract misinterpretations from it (Quran says this book will be used by the perverse for their own agendas)

[Ghazi]

I am only gonna address serious inquiries in this thread. The ignorant rednecks talking about this "virgin nonsense" just arent bringing anything to the table. At least phyzik is bringing up Quranic verses

[Will Hunting]

Sup big ghaz, how's everything going?

[Ghazi]

The word Jihad means struggle. We all have a personal struggle in our lives to find peace of mind and happiness. This is our "Jihad". It is not a word that means kill non-believers.

[Ghazi]

Sup big ghaz, how's everything going?

Not bad, just being a Muslim now no more dope games

[phyzik]

Phyzik, you have to think about the deeper meanings of those verses. Arabic and Quran are littered with poetry and allegory. They are not literal commands for forced conversion... this is just how ignorant groups like to interpret it for their own agendas. Bin Laden justifies mass murder and says "cAuse Allah said so". Is this QurAn or Bin Ladens sickness? It is a confusing book for most men to read, and some extract misinterpretations from it (Quran says this book will be used by the perverse for their own agendas)

:lmao

please enlighten me to the deeper meaning of Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

what am I getting confused about here?

:lol

[Will Hunting]

Not bad, just being a Muslim now no more dope games
You still gambling on nfl games :lol, I've gotten pretty good at it.

[Buddy Mignon]

I am only gonna address serious inquiries in this thread. The ignorant rednecks talking about this "virgin nonsense" just arent bringing anything to the table. At least phyzik is bringing up Quranic verses

I'll play. Muhammad illiterate... how did he read the Quran?

[Biernutz]

Flying 3 planes into the World Trade buildings killing 3,500+ men ,women and children is allowed in the Quran?

[Pelicans78]

Flying 3 planes into the World Trade buildings killing 3,500+ men ,women and children is allowed in the Quran?

They didn't have planes or twin towers back then so its debateable.

[MultiTroll]

Is the band Sublime part of your and Islams connection?

[Pelicans78]

Is the band Sublime part of your and Islams connection?

The lead singer died from an overdose of Islam.

[Biernutz]

They didn't have planes or twin towers back then so its debateable.

debatable? What did the Quran teach about the taking of life of innocents. If the Iranian terrorist are quoting and
following the Quranic verses, then Islam is teaching about taking the lives of all non-believers.
Example: ISIS and the killing of all Christians.

[313]

Not sure what Quran you are reading...

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:14) - "Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people."

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Quran (9:123) - "O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness."

I can easily find hundreds more, not only in the Quran but in the Hadith as well. Muhammad clearly spells out that islam is NOT about treating everyone equally. He even condemns believers who do NOT fight against the hypocrites (basically anyone not of the faith) and says people like you will end up in hell in verse 9:38-39. Ohh, and that horseshit about politely offering islam? you know what comes after that? Destruction after refusal.... It was what Osama Bin Laden did before 9/11. He invited America into islam. His justification was verse 17:16.

As a whole the Bible And Quran are literally uncomparable. Please show me a "crazy verse" and I will
give you the context, interpretation, or meNing if I can.GOnna need some context on these direct quotes my man

[lefty]

Is America a religion?

Because holy shit, they sure do like to randomly kill people

[313]

Is America a religion?

Because holy shit, they sure do like to randomly kill people:cry

[Pelicans78]

debatable? What did the Quran teach about the taking of life of innocents. If the Iranian terrorist are quoting and
following the Quranic verses, then Islam is teaching about taking the lives of all non-believers.
Example: ISIS and the killing of all Christians.

Ask Ghazi. He will tell whether it teaches it or not.

[Biernutz]

Is America a religion?

Because holy shit, they sure do like to randomly kill people

maybe America should send all of our Mexican and Syrian refugees to Canada where they will all be safe from
American terrorist.

[lefty]

maybe America should send all of our Mexican and Syrian refugees to Canada where they will all be safe from
American terrorist.
Good idea

You guys are fucking nuts tbh

[spankadelphia]

Is America a religion?

Because holy shit, they sure do like to randomly kill people

Well someone has to be the big swinging dick. Do you know how geopolitics work? Would you rather a Russian or Chinese global hegemony? Because those are the other 2 options.

[Stephen A. Smith]

Under Sharia law, if a woman tries to overcharge me for a handjob can I cut her hand off for trying to steal from me? Quite frankly the far more pressing question: do I get to keep the hand?

[Big Dog]

Taking advantage of the ongoing Islamophobia to troll:tu

OP still is a worthless gambling addict who pays for pussy:lol..

[phyzik]

GOnna need some context on these direct quotes my man

Not sure if you where addressing me or Ghazi but I will assume you where addressing me and answer you to the best of my knowledge.

First though: As a preface, I am not a theologian, I do not study religion as a profession... I do it as mainly a hobbyist and just for general curiosity as to why people believe in what I consider nonsense. That, and I like to piss off people who believe in imaginary friends.

That being said....

The verse in the Quran (4:89) is a discussion between several members of the caliphate at the time Muhammad was around discussing how to deal with hypocrites ("hypocrites" is the closest translation for a term used for ALL non-believers).

This was a discussion between the Sahih (pretty much a governing body of islam is the best description I can give) and several prominent members of the faith including Muhammad. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=89


The verse in the Quran 8:12 is another discussion with the Sahih discussing angels and their messages... pretty much agreeing that "angels" are saying they agree with them, and to chop off the heads and limbs of the non-believers. Muhammad is also personally in this discussion. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=8&verse=12

Again, in verse 9:14 the Sahih is asking the "faithful" to punish all non-Muslims for not following Allah. Muhammad even says humiliating them and killing them, that islams followers will rejoice in their suffering... http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=14


Quran 9:29 is again the Sahih (a reminder that the Sahih is the governing body of islam): This is basically another discussion that those who do not "believe" should be killed or those who submit, according to Muhammad, should have their hands cut off... http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=14


Quran 9:123 is again the Sahih telling the faithful to literally kill those of not of the same faith (or disbelievers) and rejoice in their death, because allah (god) is with them. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=123

I can go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on.....

BTW, I have the same views towards the bible and any other religion which believes in an invisible sky daddy if anyone here hasnt seen my posts in the club forum.

It's literally like knowing a grownup who still believes in santa clause or the easter bunny..... It is just fucking creepy and weird to me. Coupled that with the fact I live in Texas of all places..... :lol :bang:bang:bang:bang:bang

I've read many religious texts, including the bible, the torah, the quran and many others that I dont care to mention..... I probably know more about someones religion than that person professes to. They are all nonsense.

[DeRozan m8]

I want to know why some think its okay to marry and fuck 9 year olds and stuff.

Whats up with that?

[tenbeersbold]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html?referer=&_r=0
My bro who was over there fighting told me about this,they looked forward to Fridays because that was the day most of it took place(right before Muslim sabbath) as there wasn't much fighting due to all the buggery going on

[tenbeersbold]

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/21/world/kandahar-journal-shh-it-s-an-open-secret-warlords-and-pedophilia.html

More fun in the sand

[Warlord23]

Even if Muhammad was bipolar, you are forgetting that men like Mozart and Einstein were bipolar as well. Maybe bipolar in most men causes mood swings, obsessions, paranoia, pressurized speech, and things of the like... but its well known that bipolars are also highly creative, perceptive, and intelligent. Muhammad tapped into the best of his talents and he attributed it to The Divine rather than himself.

Muhammad died in 632, and during his time the narration was primarily oral. His followers used to memorize this stuff and repeat it to one another. Now many of these early Muslims who memorized the verses died in battle, so there were multiple scattered pieces and versions. It was the third Muslim Caliph Uthman who finally brought together these varying accounts and produced the master version while destroying all the older copies. So what you read today is a manuscript pieced together from dozens of sources of questionable reliability and finally shaped by Uthman well after Muhammad's death. In this way, the origins of the Quran are very similar to the Bible - its authorship was ultimately a political act conducted after the original narrator had died. You're probably aware that several Shia scholars believed that the Quran had been tampered.

The Hadith is even worse - heavily based upon hearsay. Different branches of Islam have different compilations, and hundreds of alleged hadiths were rejected while many of questionable origin were included.

Once you accept that the details within these religious texts are the result of fallible human memory and decisions, it will be easier to explain the contradiction, irrelevance and capriciousness that is present. You won't need to resort to mental gymnastics in trying to defend the indefensible.

These books were probably significant in their time - when society needed the right mix of stick and carrot to ensure that people conformed to some common beliefs and goals. But that time has passed. Exhorting a religion's members to defend/expand the faith using the sword would have been useful in 7th century Arabia, but not so much now. Similarly, in modern society there is no need for instructions on how husbands can beat their wives, for advice on how to treat slaves, or to have a rapist marry his victim while paying her father money, or cutting off a thief's hands or stoning adulteresses to death.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

the sublime truth of Islam: they are a 7th century medieval society trying to live in the 21st century and maintain such medieval customs.


religion, LOL

[Ghazi]

To kill one man is to kill all of mankind. This is Islams take on killing innocents. Some people like to misinterpret or place a view verses out of context to justify heinous acts, but that's on their souls, not Allah. and someone referenced 17:16 was used by Osama Bin Laden to justify 9/11.... that's just Osama being a murderer/terrorist with ties to the CIA, that quote in no way can be used by a rational person to justify 9/11

[Ghazi]

Hypocrites does not refer to all non-believers, it refers to a contingent of people who pretended to be Muslims and plotted against the Prophet.

[K...]

Throughout the ages scholars of Islam, and presumably most other religions, are faced with the problem that understanding God is hard. Ordinary people don't ever speak to God. So, because God is great some clerics want to use whatever metaphors on hand to preach.others do not, arguing that dumb people don't deserve God without learning sacrifice and meditation. You can guess who won the battle. 90% of religion is metaphor.

Anyway I mention this because any one who takes the Quran as a manual to commit sin is guilty. Same with the bible.

My own belief is that God is oblivion. Oblivion is perfect good, nothing else can exist that can be perfect good except perfect nothingness. Thus the world, humans, time, thought, rationality, it's all empty, meaningless, and corrupting.


Anyway, you can't use nihilism to create morality or justify war and there are no good nihilism metaphors. So you either have to teach an unteachable subject, or metaphor your way into a mass religion.

[DeRozan m8]

Hypocrites does not refer to all non-believers, it refers to a contingent of people who pretended to be Muslims and plotted against the Prophet.

Okay, cool.

So what about sex with children?

[spurraider21]

marg bar islam

[K...]

Okay, cool.

So what about sex with children?

Catholics can't stop themselves.

[ismael-robert]

THE DEUTERONOMY DEDUCTIONS:
Two Short, Sound, Simple Proofs that Muhammad Was a False Prophet

By David Wood
"But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have
not commanded him to speak . . . that prophet shall die."
~GOD (Deuteronomy18:20)[1]
"I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken."
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)[2]
Muhammad claimed that Jewish and Christian scriptures had predicted his coming (see, e.g., Qur’an 7:157). This has led Muslim apologists to comb the Old and New Testaments in search of passages that refer to their prophet. While all biblical evidence offered by Muslims in support of their prophet appears horribly strained to non-Muslims (provided the latter read the passages in context) and has been thoroughly refuted time and again, it is still common to hear Muslims claim that the Bible speaks about Muhammad.
The most popular "prophecy" about Muhammad is found in Deuteronomy 18. It is quite ironic, then, to learn that, according to Deuteronomy 18, Muhammad can’t possibly be a prophet. As we will see, this puts Muslims in an awkward position, and helps show the lengths to which they will go in their efforts to defend their prophet.
The purpose of this essay is to prove, based on Muslim claims (including their appeal to Deuteronomy 18), that Muhammad was a false prophet. I will begin by presenting two arguments against the prophethood of Muhammad, and I will follow this by carefully defending the arguments. Once I have shown that the arguments are sound, I will briefly discuss the options available to Muslims who want to reject the obvious conclusion.
I. THE DEUTERONOMY DEDUCTIONS

There are two elements to look for when examining deductive arguments: valid logic and true premises. To say that a deductive argument is valid is to say that, due to the logical form, true premises will always lead to a true conclusion. The most basic argument form is the syllogism, and the most basic valid form of the syllogism is Modus Ponens.[3] The logical form of the following arguments is Modus Ponens; thus, they are logically valid:
Argument A—false gods and false prophets

A1. If a person speaks in the names of false gods, that person is a false prophet.
A2. Muhammad spoke in the names of false gods.
——————————————————
A3. Therefore, Muhammad was a false prophet.
Argument B—false revelations and false prophets

B1. If a person delivers a revelation that doesn’t come from God, that person is a false prophet.
B2. Muhammad delivered a revelation that didn’t come from God.
——————————————————
B3. Therefore, Muhammad was a false prophet.
Since the logic of both arguments is valid, true premises will always lead to a true conclusion. Hence, if the premises of these arguments are true, Muhammad was a false prophet. Let us turn, then, to a careful discussion of our premises.
II. PREMISES A1 AND B1 DEFENDED

A1 and B1 seem intuitively obvious. That is, it seems clear that if a person speaks in the names of false gods or delivers revelations that don’t come from God, the person cannot be a true prophet. Nevertheless, by appealing to the Bible to bolster their belief in Muhammad, Muslims have inadvertently granted that A1 and B1 are true.
Deuteronomy 18 serves as the foundation of Islam’s "Argument from Biblical Prophecy," used by generations of Muslims to prove that Muhammad was a true prophet. Indeed, the popular Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam uses Deuteronomy 18 as its primary evidence that the Bible speaks of Muhammad. Author I. A. Ibrahim says,
The Biblical prophecies on the advent of the Prophet Muhammad are evidence of the truth of Islam for people who believe in the Bible.
In Deuteronomy 18, Moses stated that God told him: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." (Deuteronomy 18: 18-19)[4]
The book goes on to argue that Muhammad fulfilled this prophecy in numerous ways. While such claims have been refuted ad nauseum,[5] I will simply note that Muslims have here granted that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 is inspired by God (since they regard it as a miraculous prophecy). Surely, then, we can’t ignore the next verse, where God says:
"But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die." (Deuteronomy 18:20)
Here we have two criteria for spotting a false prophet: (1) delivering a revelation which God has not "commanded him to speak," and (2) speaking "in the name of other gods." Since Muslims who appeal to so-called biblical prophecies of Muhammad have given this passage their stamp of approval, they cannot deny the truth of A1 and B1. To sum up, Muslims have appealed to a passage in Deuteronomy 18, and that passage entails premises A1 and B1. Thus, according to Muslim claims, the first premise of each of the Deuteronomy Deductions is true.
III. PREMISES A2 AND B2 DEFENDED

We have seen that, according to a passage regarded by many Muslims as divine revelation, a person who either delivers a message that does not come from God or speaks in the names of false gods must be a false prophet. But this means that Muhammad was a false prophet, since he did both when he delivered the infamous "Satanic Verses."
We learn about the Satanic Verses, not from Christian or Jewish sources, but from early Muslim writings. Accounts of the Satanic Verses are given in a number of early sources, including: (1) Ibn Ishaq, (2) Wakidi, (3) Ibn Sa’d, (4) al-Tabari, (5) Ibn Abi Hatim, (6) Ibn al-Mundhir, (7) Ibn Mardauyah, (8) Musa ibn 'Uqba, and (9) Abu Ma'shar.[6] According to the great Muslim scholar Ibn Hajar, three chains of transmission (isnad) in these accounts "satisfy the conditions requisite for an authentic report."[7] Moreover, Sahih al-Bukhari, Islam’s most trusted source on the life of Muhammad, gives indirect confirmation of the event (Number 4862, quoted below). Beyond this, certain verses of the Qur’an (17:73-5 and 22:52-3) were revealed in response to Muhammad’s embarrassing lapse into polytheism.
We therefore have compelling historical evidence that the story is authentic. (For a thorough discussion of the evidence for the Satanic Verses, see "Muhammad and the Satanic Verses.") In fact, the historical method virtually guarantees the legitimacy of the story. Historians examining the lives of leaders and religious figures employ what is known as the "Principle of Embarrassment," a principle which also carries much weight in legal investigations. Law professor Annette Gordon-Reed sums up the principle thus: "Declarations against interest are regarded as having a high degree of credibility because of the presumption that people do not make up lies in order to hurt themselves; they lie to help themselves."[8] Applying the Principle of Embarrassment to accounts of the Satanic Verses, we see immediately that Muslims would not have invented this story, since it calls Muhammad’s reliability into question. We also see that the story couldn’t have been invented by non-Muslims; for if non-Muslims had invented the story, Muslims would have exposed the story’s origin, instead of defending it in their earliest historical works.
The evidence for the general reliability of the Muslim accounts concerning the Satanic Verses is therefore too overwhelming to ignore. With this in mind, let us consider a condensed account of what happened, based on the History of al-Tabari.
According to al-Tabari,
When the Messenger of God saw how his tribe turned their backs on him and was grieved to see them shunning the message he had brought to them from God, he longed in his soul that something would come to him from God which would reconcile him with his tribe. With his love for his tribe and his eagerness for their welfare it would have delighted him if some of the difficulties which they made for him could have been smoothed out, and he debated within himself and fervently desired such an outcome. Then God revealed:
By the Star when it sets, your comrade does not err, nor is he deceived; nor does he speak out of (his own) desire . . .
and when he came to the words:
Have you thought upon al-Lat and al-‘Uzza and Manat, the third, the other?
Satan cast on his tongue, because of his inner debates and what he desired to bring to his people, the words:
These are the high-flying cranes; verily their intercession is accepted with approval. (Al-Tabari, p. 108)
The polytheists were delighted that Muhammad had at last approved of their gods. To return the kindness, they "prostrated themselves because of the reference to their gods which they had heard, so that there was no one in the mosque, believer or unbeliever, who did not prostrate himself" (p. 109).
Muhammad’s friendly relations with the polytheists were short-lived, however, for he soon learned that his verses praising pagan idols came not from God, but from Satan. Saddened to recognize his treachery against Allah, Muhammad lamented: "I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken" (p. 111). Yet "Gabriel" comforted Muhammad, informing him that all prophets fall for Satan’s tricks from time to time. This staggering and unbelievable claim even found its way into the Qur’an:
"And We did not send before you any apostle or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which the Shaitan casts, then does Allah establish His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise." (Surah 22:52)[9]
According to the next verse, Allah allows his prophets to receive revelations from Satan in order to test hard-hearted people.
Whatever we think of the preposterous Qur’anic explanation of the Satanic Verses (and its defense of Muhammad), it is clear that the Prophet of Islam, on at least one occasion, delivered a message that did not come from God. It is also clear that Muhammad, on at least one occasion, spoke in the names of false gods.[10] Thus, we can establish from Muslim sources that A2 and B2 are almost certainly true.
IV. POSSIBLE REPLIES

Since we have good reasons to accept premises A1, A2, B1, and B2, we have good reasons to accept conclusions A3 and B3, both of which claim that Muhammad was a false prophet. Muslims, however, will not want to accept this conclusion. Let us briefly discuss their prospects for rejecting it.
Muslims could, of course, claim that Deuteronomy 18:20 is a false teaching, not actually revealed by God. But if they take this route, it would be absurd of them to turn around and declare that 18:18-19 is an inspired prophecy. While it is alarmingly common for Muslims to pick and choose which passages in the Bible are correct (i.e. everything that agrees with Islam is correct, but everything that disagrees with Islam was corrupted by evil Jews and Christians), no one is going to be convinced by the claim that one verse in Deuteronomy 18 proves the prophethood of Muhammad, while another verse in the same passage is corrupted because it proves that he was a false prophet.
Thus, Muslims who want to deny A1 and B1 must abandon their claim that Deuteronomy 18 predicts the coming of Muhammad. The problem with this approach is that the prophecy of a coming messenger like Moses is one of the last remaining verses that Muslims—in spite of the evidence—cling to in their hopes of vindicating Muhammad. But if the Bible contains no clear prophecies about Muhammad, then Muhammad was a false prophet, since he claimed (in the Qur’an no less!) that the Jewish and Christian scriptures contain prophecies of his coming. This means that Muslims are caught between the horns of a dilemma. If they cling to Deuteronomy 18, then Muhammad was a false prophet. If they abandon it, then they are on the verge of having no biblical prophecies of Muhammad, which would imply that Muhammad was a false prophet.
Muslims who give up their most prized prophecy still wouldn’t be out of the water, however. For even if they abandon Deuteronomy 18 and declare it to be utterly corrupted, this wouldn’t refute A1 and B1, since, as I have already noted, these premises are intuitively obvious. Muslims who want to deny A1 and B1 must therefore show that these premises are false by arguing that genuine prophets can indeed deliver false revelations and speak in the names of false gods. I would love to see Muslims attempt to defend such an untenable position!
It seems, then, that Muslims who want to continue believing in Muhammad must deny not A1 and B1, but A2 and B2. But this means that they must reject the overwhelming historical evidence for Muhammad’s temporary support of paganism. Muslims who take this approach must do seven things. First, they must provide some reasonable explanation as to the story’s origin (e.g. they must make a plausible case that the story was invented by pagans, Jews, or Christians). Second, they must explain why Muslims, who had every reason to reject such a story, passed it on as if it were true (instead of exposing it as a fabrication). Third, they must show that Ibn Ishaq, Wakidi, Ibn Sa’d, al-Tabari, Ibn Abi Hatim, Ibn al-Mundhir, Ibn Mardauyah, Musa ibn ‘Uqba, and Abu Ma’shar were sloppy historians (so amazingly sloppy that they included false stories about Muhammad that called his prophethood into question). Fourth, they must account for the various chains of authority to which the early Muslim biographers appealed in their efforts to demonstrate the story’s authenticity. Fifth, they must explain why al-Bukhari, Islam’s most trusted authority, confirms certain details of the story that only make sense if Muhammad really did deliver the Satanic Verses. According to Bukhari,
The Prophet performed a prostration when he finished reciting Surat an-Najm [Surah 53], and all the Muslims and Al-Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah and in His Messenger Muhammad) and jinn and human beings prostrated along with him. (4862)[11]
Though Bukhari understandably omits the embarrassing reason for the prostration of the pagans, he inadvertently confirms the account given by Ibn Ishaq and the others, who faithfully reported that the pagans bowed down because Muhammad spoke favorably of their gods. Sixth, Muslims must account for Surah 22:52, which, again, declares that all God’s prophets received revelations from Satan—a verse so preposterous that it could only have been offered to the Muslim community as an absurd explanation for something like the Satanic Verses. Seventh, they must show non-Muslims why we should reject all the available evidence and believe that Muhammad was spiritually reliable, when, as all informed Muslims will admit, Muhammad was the victim of black magic (a spell cast by a Jewish magician) and, at one point, was convinced that he was demon-possessed. Put differently, if the Prophet of Islam could mistakenly believe that he was demon-possessed, and was susceptible to spiritual attacks (such as black magic), why shouldn’t we believe that he could fall prey to revelations from Satan? (For more on Muhammad’s spiritual difficulties, see "A Bewitched Prophet?")
While I have witnessed Muslim attempts to explain away the historical evidence for the Satanic Verses, I have never seen anything remotely resembling a convincing refutation of the evidence. For instance, in my debate on the prophethood of Muhammad at U.C. Davis, my opponent Ali Ataie tried to respond to al-Bukhari’s indirect confirmation of the Satanic Verses by appealing to the miraculous power of the Qur’an. According to Ataie, the reason the pagans bowed down in honor of Surah 53 (which, in its present form, ridicules polytheism) was that they were overwhelmed by its majesty. But surely such a response is based on fantasy rather than fact. Muslims have been reciting the Qur’an for more than a thousand years, and unbelievers are typically quite unimpressed by Muhammad’s poetry. Indeed, Muhammad won remarkably few converts when he appealed to the Qur’an as evidence of his divine commission. He only saw large numbers of converts when he turned to other (far more bloody) means of conversion. Thus, for Muslims like Ataie to claim that the pagans, with one accord, bowed down at Muhammad’s recitation of Surah 53, is bordering on delusional. Bukhari’s hadith makes far more sense when read in the light of historical works like Ibn Ishaq (which, incidentally, predates Sahih al-Bukhari by many decades). The only conceivable reason the pagans would bow down in honor of Surah 53 is that the Surah originally supported paganism, and this is exactly what our earliest historical records claim.
All things considered, the only reasonable conclusion to be drawn from the historical evidence is that Muhammad, in a moment of weakness, gave into temptation and actively promoted polytheism by delivering a revelation from Satan. But this means that we cannot rationally reject premises A2 and B2. Muslims, then, can have no good response to the Deuteronomy Deductions. We are therefore left with an unavoidable conclusion: Muhammad was a false prophet.
V. ASSESSMENT

To conclude, I would like to emphasize again that my entire argument (in two deductions) has been based on the writings and claims of Muslims. Early Muslim historians, in an astounding display of honesty and integrity, admitted that their prophet had delivered the Satanic Verses to his listeners. In acknowledging this, they provided all the evidence we need for premises A2 and B2. Modern Muslims, in an effort to defend Muhammad’s claim to biblical support for his ministry, have granted that a passage in Deuteronomy 18 was inspired by God. In doing so, they have given us all the evidence we need for premises A1 and B1. Since both of the Deuteronomy Deductions are logically valid, we have two proofs, based entirely on the claims of Muslims, that Muhammad was a false prophet.
Since the Deuteronomy Deductions are sound (i.e. logically valid with true premises), any honest seeker will have to admit that Muhammad was a false prophet. It should be an enlightening exercise, then, to present these arguments to Muslims. If a Muslim examines the arguments carefully, inspecting the premises and weighing the evidence, and then rejects the conclusion without refuting the argument, we can only assume that such a person is less interested in truth and more interested in the comfort provided by blindly accepting the faith he was raised in. Although my experience leads me to believe that most Muslims are of this type, my experience has also shown me that there are Muslims in the world who are actively dedicated to learning the truth about God. The first truth such Muslims must learn is that their prophet Muhammad was no prophet at all. The second is that their prophet Jesus is much more than a prophet.

[Blue Duck]

Everyone here is trying mightily to prove their vast knowledge of this topic, and that's fine. It's typical, I do the same thing when I'm debating, and some of the material provided by the posters weighing in is pretty interesting. But I really don't need to back up my arguments with any historical facts or quote verses. For me it's as simple as this, whether it's ghazi, or left wing freakazoids or whoever trying to convince me that Islam is so wonderful and "sublime", you're asking me to ignore what I see, hear and read daily, like I'm too stupid to come to my own conclusions. And comparing Christianity to Islam in this day and age is an argument that holds no water. Both the bible and the Koran are rife with unresolved contradicting, but it's the practitioners of these religions that make the difference. We can debate the message all day, it does not change the fact that the world as we know it today would be a much more enlightened, safer and harmonious place, if not for the constant nonsense being perpetuated by muslims, and that has been the case throughout the entirety of my existence and beyond. Comparing Christian verse to koranic, that's stupid, the vast majority of Christians are reasonably sane, civilized people who do not take every single line written in their book of faith literally.

[DeRozan m8]

Catholics can't stop themselves.

Yeah but they know its not right, they sweep it under the rug to protect themselves rather than trying to tell us its okay.
I won't even start on how fucked those kunts are too.
So many disgusting criminals within organized religion...straight out literal thieves and rapists.
Tbh

[313]

Not sure if you where addressing me or Ghazi but I will assume you where addressing me and answer you to the best of my knowledge.

First though: As a preface, I am not a theologian, I do not study religion as a profession... I do it as mainly a hobbyist and just for general curiosity as to why people believe in what I consider nonsense. That, and I like to piss off people who believe in imaginary friends.

That being said....

The verse in the Quran (4:89) is a discussion between several members of the caliphate at the time Muhammad was around discussing how to deal with hypocrites ("hypocrites" is the closest translation for a term used for ALL non-believers).

This was a discussion between the Sahih (pretty much a governing body of islam is the best description I can give) and several prominent members of the faith including Muhammad. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=89


The verse in the Quran 8:12 is another discussion with the Sahih discussing angels and their messages... pretty much agreeing that "angels" are saying they agree with them, and to chop off the heads and limbs of the non-believers. Muhammad is also personally in this discussion. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=8&verse=12

Again, in verse 9:14 the Sahih is asking the "faithful" to punish all non-Muslims for not following Allah. Muhammad even says humiliating them and killing them, that islams followers will rejoice in their suffering... http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=14


Quran 9:29 is again the Sahih (a reminder that the Sahih is the governing body of islam): This is basically another discussion that those who do not "believe" should be killed or those who submit, according to Muhammad, should have their hands cut off... http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=14


Quran 9:123 is again the Sahih telling the faithful to literally kill those of not of the same faith (or disbelievers) and rejoice in their death, because allah (god) is with them. http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=9&verse=123

I can go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on.....

BTW, I have the same views towards the bible and any other religion which believes in an invisible sky daddy if anyone here hasnt seen my posts in the club forum.

It's literally like knowing a grownup who still believes in santa clause or the easter bunny..... It is just fucking creepy and weird to me. Coupled that with the fact I live in Texas of all places..... :lol :bang:bang:bang:bang:bang

I've read many religious texts, including the bible, the torah, the quran and many others that I dont care to mention..... I probably know more about someones religion than that person professes to. They are all nonsense.
It was directed at Ghazi since he said if someone posted verses he would explain how "it was taken out of context" lol But as an atheist why have you invested so much time learning about religions? Genuine curiosity?

[Mal]

Taking advantage of the ongoing Islamophobia to troll:tu

OP still is a worthless gambling addict who pays for pussy:lol..

It wouldnt be a problem if fuckers just stay on desert like there were for last couple hundreds years.

[Arcadian]

Will post some Sam Harris videos later.

[tlongII]

Dude! Why are you calling this a "Blazers" related post? Keep us away from that crappy religion!

[DMC]

I have a question. How do you know your religion is truth based? If its a feeling, why are feelings proof of one thing but not another?

The tenets of Islam are a red herring. The burden of proof for the existance of your allah is on the one claiming allah exists. Clear that hurdle else your tenets are moot.

[dbestpro]

I am only gonna address serious inquiries in this thread. The ignorant rednecks talking about this "virgin nonsense" just arent bringing anything to the table. At least phyzik is bringing up Quranic verses

Peace be with you. I am Christian, and I respect your faith as I wish people to respect mine. When I worked in Sri Lanka my counterpart was Muslim, and we got along wonderfully as most Christians and Muslims do in this part of the world. Ironically, it was the Hindu and the Buddhists that wanted to kill each other.

I can also say that I had a cousin who died in the towers as she was an airline stewardess who was on the second plane. Her father during her eulogy said some important things. He said, "The enemy is not a religion, a group of people or a sect. The enemy is ignorance. and intolerance." Since then I always question whether we are fighting that enemy or are we becoming part of that enemy.

[spurraider21]

It was directed at Ghazi since he said if someone posted verses he would explain how "it was taken out of context" lol But as an atheist why have you invested so much time learning about religions? Genuine curiosity?
Religion is a fascinating aspect of human history tbh

And there's nothing wrong with being educated. Why does anybody study history if not everybody is a historian? Researching and learning about a topic also puts you in a position where you can discuss it without being ignorant (unlike Avante with evolution)

[K...]

I have a question. How do you know your religion is truth based? If its a feeling, why are feelings proof of one thing but not another?

The tenets of Islam are a red herring. The burden of proof for the existance of your allah is on the one claiming allah exists. Clear that hurdle else your tenets are moot.

Best proof of Islam is how fast it spread. If Allah did want the Koran spread war was probably the fastest way. Especially considering the prophet was way nicer in war than the genocide loving Jew armies. But Islam never got past Greece and Spain. Christianity then entered its most corrupt phase. Would have been far better for everyone of Islam took over Rome. Christianity had almost no redeeming quality until Protestantism took over. If Christianity were smarter they'd put Martin Luther and Galileo up with Jesus but sadly it was easier to persecute, which was the style of the time.


You really can't underestimate the war crimes and genocide under Catholic imperial rule.


It's actually probably easier to say this, God has no obligation to choose the right prophet. The vessel of truth is irrelevant to truth. This is where Christianity fails....Jesus was too good, so it's fairly obvious that his story is widely inflated by his fan boy club. In Jesus's favor is that he didn't get rich from prophecy unlike Mohamed and Joseph Smith. But then Jesus didn't create Christianity, Paul and friends did.

The second argument in favor of the Koran is the argument that it's poetic. If God created a beautiful book in Arabic that would make sense. Compare that to the bible which is not really great when rendered into any language. I don't know Arabic so I can't say it's convincing of an argument.

[spurraider21]

^:lmao

[phyzik]

Pretty much this.... and I wasnt always an atheist.

Meant to quote spurraider21. Posting from my phone.

Living in texas as an athiest, its good to have ammo when you are pittied (at the best of times) or treated like a plague infested demon worshiper (still not the worst it gets).

[K...]

^:lmao

Just remember when the end of the world comes, the angels have specific names. You should greet them correctly. Basically that's Islam. The rest is dicta. Christianity is similar. Just ask for forgiveness at least once after your last sin.


I actually do think though...If Christianity is correct, then the apocalypse already occurred. Christianity almost certainly died with the Roman adoption of it. It became hipster, then it became basic, then it became corrupt. Basically og Christianity pretty much requires virginity and sacrifice.


But anyway, remember I'm a nihilist which is better than being an atheist because I believe in something rather than just declining to form belief or logic base as almost all atheists do (they back slide into weak deism or a stupid humanism)

[phyzik]

Just remember when the end of the world comes, the angels have specific names. You should greet them correctly. Basically that's Islam. The rest is dicta. Christianity is similar. Just ask for forgiveness at least once after your last sin.


I actually do think though...If Christianity is correct, then the apocalypse already occurred. Christianity almost certainly died with the Roman adoption of it. It became hipster, then it became basic, then it became corrupt. Basically og Christianity pretty much requires virginity and sacrifice.


But anyway, remember I'm a nihilist which is better than being an atheist because I believe in something rather than just declining to form belief or logic base as almost all atheists do (they back slide into weak deism or a stupid humanism)

Ummm... I'm not sure you know what Nihilism is.... It is certainly not the description you are giving.

Nihilism is literally the belief in nothing and EVERYTHING is meaningless, including the people and friends you associate with. no morals, and life is meaningless, killing others is O.K. and there is no moral dilemma even when killing family and friends. This is what most Theist attribute as Atheism, that we have no moral compass. If you subscribe to Nihilism then you literally believe there is no moral benefit to helping other human beings and killing others is just fine.

If that is your stance (fuck everyone else, including family and friends), then yes, you are a nihilist.

[313]

Ummm... I'm not sure you know what Nihilism is.... It is certainly not the description you are giving.

Nihilism is literally the belief in nothing and EVERYTHING is meaningless, including the people and friends you associate with. no morals, and life is meaningless, killing others is O.K. and there is no moral dilemma even when killing family and friends. This is what most Theist attribute as Atheism, that we have no moral compass. If you subscribe to Nihilism then you literally believe there is no moral benefit to helping other human beings and killing others is just fine.

If that is your stance, then yes, you are a nihilist.I think he meant agnostic

[phyzik]

I think he meant agnostic

That is probably most likely... Most people dont even know how to label themselves when it comes to belief, probably me included.

I self identify as an atheist but I still "wish" or "dream" for things...... not to a particular supernatural being, and certainly not to a "god".... but that is just how our brains are wired. I just know not to expect any results from "prayer" and those that do come to pass are because I made it happen with my own ability or a fortuitous turn of events. Not some sky daddy watching over me.

[DMC]

Best proof of Islam is how fast it spread. If Allah did want the Koran spread war was probably the fastest way. Especially considering the prophet was way nicer in war than the genocide loving Jew armies. But Islam never got past Greece and Spain. Christianity then entered its most corrupt phase. Would have been far better for everyone of Islam took over Rome. Christianity had almost no redeeming quality until Protestantism took over. If Christianity were smarter they'd put Martin Luther and Galileo up with Jesus but sadly it was easier to persecute, which was the style of the time.


You really can't underestimate the war crimes and genocide under Catholic imperial rule.


It's actually probably easier to say this, God has no obligation to choose the right prophet. The vessel of truth is irrelevant to truth. This is where Christianity fails....Jesus was too good, so it's fairly obvious that his story is widely inflated by his fan boy club. In Jesus's favor is that he didn't get rich from prophecy unlike Mohamed and Joseph Smith. But then Jesus didn't create Christianity, Paul and friends did.

The second argument in favor of the Koran is the argument that it's poetic. If God created a beautiful book in Arabic that would make sense. Compare that to the bible which is not really great when rendered into any language. I don't know Arabic so I can't say it's convincing of an argument.
All that tap dancing and allah still isn't shown to exist. All that can happen without allah, ergo allah isn't necessary. A god that's unnecessary doesn't exist necessarily. If allah did exist, based on you statements, it would be much less than the classical idea of a god and more of a curious thing.

[DMC]

Just remember when the end of the world comes, the angels have specific names. You should greet them correctly. Basically that's Islam. The rest is dicta. Christianity is similar. Just ask for forgiveness at least once after your last sin.


I actually do think though...If Christianity is correct, then the apocalypse already occurred. Christianity almost certainly died with the Roman adoption of it. It became hipster, then it became basic, then it became corrupt. Basically og Christianity pretty much requires virginity and sacrifice.


But anyway, remember I'm a nihilist which is better than being an atheist because I believe in something rather than just declining to form belief or logic base as almost all atheists do (they back slide into weak deism or a stupid humanism)

There are over 2000 religions. They are not all correct since they are contradicting of one another. The odds that one is correct is 1/2000 or however many more you can create before you die. If you're Christian, you should feel that your odds are very low that your god is real.

Also, religion is based on circular reasoning or begging the question. You say god is good or that god has no obligation to do whatever, but then you're using criteria and standards for a god that are defined by the god. God is good because good is god. If god tells you to gut your newborn son, and you obey, that's good. Gutting your newborn son was good because god is good. If you say good exists outside of god and that god does things that are good, then you are slaving god to a moral code. God then must be good, he has no choice, ergo he's not all powerful and non-contingent.

[ismael-robert]

The Bible contains no contadictions or errors only room for further study and misinterpretation by non belivers. Thats one thing a Christian points to as proof of its divine origin...like 50 authors yet theyre all in agreement and pointing to same thing. Find an error or contadiction all u have to do is add Christian response to end of your search and every argument has an answer. Its far too simple to call Christians idiots for believing in a sky daddy but there are Christian scientist, physicist, etc basically in every field with triple doctorates that would make your heads spin with the amount of evidence that exist. Some of your atheist heroes who know way more than any of you self proclaimed experts n written books for atheism have become theists.
As far as other religions its pointless to study them. If God created all then the oldest religion would be the original He left behind...thus Judaism. But Judaism made over 300 prophecies about their messiah of which Jesus fulfilled all so Judaism gave way to Christianity.

[ismael-robert]

Actually very telling was when some prominent atheist said the only answer or weapon against islam was Christianity. You cant fight a spiritual war with physical weapons or human arguments.

[DMC]

Actually very telling was when some prominent atheist said the only answer or weapon against islam was Christianity. You cant fight a spiritual war with physical weapons or human arguments.

Yet here we are doing just that.

The Crusades fucked you up pretty well. There's no "spiritual argument". There are no spiritual tummy sticks. It's about idiots being idiots and the ease at which we can snuff out their lives at a time of our choosing.

[DMC]

The Bible contains no contadictions or errors only room for further study and misinterpretation by non belivers. Thats one thing a Christian points to as proof of its divine origin...like 50 authors yet theyre all in agreement and pointing to same thing. Find an error or contadiction all u have to do is add Christian response to end of your search and every argument has an answer. Its far too simple to call Christians idiots for believing in a sky daddy but there are Christian scientist, physicist, etc basically in every field with triple doctorates that would make your heads spin with the amount of evidence that exist. Some of your atheist heroes who know way more than any of you self proclaimed experts n written books for atheism have become theists.
As far as other religions its pointless to study them. If God created all then the oldest religion would be the original He left behind...thus Judaism. But Judaism made over 300 prophecies about their messiah of which Jesus fulfilled all so Judaism gave way to Christianity.

So? How does any of that illustrate that anything he said was true? He knew the prophesy. Hell, I can follow instructions.

[ismael-robert]

To K. Jesus told his disciples to spread His word n make more disciples so how did He not launch Christianity?

[ismael-robert]

Old Testament prophesied His birthplace He cannot control that.

[ismael-robert]

Crusaders messed up Catholics, im not

[HemisfairArena]

Is there a god?,,,,who knows? But in the imfamous words of jack burton from the movie Big Trouble in Little China,,,,and I quote,,"Now I'm not saying that I've been everywhere and I've done everything, but I do know it's a pretty amazing planet we live on, and a man would have to be some kind of FOOL to think we're all alone in THIS universe.",,,,,

[Pelicans78]

The Bible contains no contadictions or errors only room for further study and misinterpretation by non belivers. Thats one thing a Christian points to as proof of its divine origin...like 50 authors yet theyre all in agreement and pointing to same thing. Find an error or contadiction all u have to do is add Christian response to end of your search and every argument has an answer. Its far too simple to call Christians idiots for believing in a sky daddy but there are Christian scientist, physicist, etc basically in every field with triple doctorates that would make your heads spin with the amount of evidence that exist. Some of your atheist heroes who know way more than any of you self proclaimed experts n written books for atheism have become theists.
As far as other religions its pointless to study them. If God created all then the oldest religion would be the original He left behind...thus Judaism. But Judaism made over 300 prophecies about their messiah of which Jesus fulfilled all so Judaism gave way to Christianity.

What's the real Christianity? What's the real Bible? How do you know your bible is accurate? You don't know. Its been translated from the original language several times. Different books and texts have been added. The Dead Sea scrolls which were discovered recently is new evidence against what the King James Bible has left out. Sorry, but you don't have a moral authority when you don't have an original source.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Dude! Why are calling this a "Blazers" related post? Keep us away from that crappy religion!
Because Portland is a liberal hellhole, and the liberals are the ones trying to help the Islamics flood the country so America will never be the way it was, ever again?

[Ghazi]

Let me just say this, God and Satan are real to SOME extent.

Inside us.

Zoroastrians had a concept that we all are born with mental struggle of ASA (light) v DRUJ (darkness), and that good thoughts, words, and deeds lead us to asa, which may also mean confidence and self esteem and peace of mind.

Jihad as referred to in Islam can also refer to that internal struggle. "Fighting the enemies of Allah" essentially means sticking up for what you think is right.

[underdawg]

I’m obliged to post this one post (trolling understood) and that’s it.
Even if there was something missing from the Bible as we know it today (vs. the past), it’s no accident that it has been that way through time (God’s decision not man’s). Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, etc. have all added to the Bible but it still remains the same and all of their additions are meaningless and some even sinful.
The theme of the Bible is consistent through the OT and the NT – we are all sinners and unable to save ourselves. We are only saved through the atonement of Christ as planned by God from the beginning. All other religions are based on self-improvement/good works to improve one’s self, but Christ wants us to die to ourselves (our pride and vanity) and surrender to Him alone by faith. He cannot work within us, we cannot understand the Bible, we cannot be saved until that happens. People can be “good people” according to what society calls “good,” but without surrendering to Christ for Him to be Lord of our lives, we will not have eternal salvation and we will not have the blessing of God in our lives while we are in the present life.
Do you ever wonder why you hate Christianity so much (Pelicans and Phyzik - I’ve seen it in other posts so I ask)? Could your hate be the conviction in your heart of your own sin? There’s so much more Godlessness in this world than Christianity, it shouldn’t bother you at all (yes even in Texas).
We are not here by accident and there is no such thing as luck or chance – God has always been in control and everything happens exactly as He planned (whether you understand its purpose or not). He is eternal and a spirit (John 4:24) before time and after. He is, was and will always be (Revelation 1:8). Most of all, He loved us so much he gave us His only begotten Son to die on the cross for our sins, so that we might be redeemed and reunited with our God. Not a sky daddy, but the only power to create the physical universe while not being subject to the physical laws He created – He is our eternal creator (no wormholes or black holes needed).

[baseline bum]

^ tl;dr

[Kim Jong-il]

I get a strong feeling that in Ghazi's next youtube video he'll be joining ISIS.

[DeRozan m8]

Let me just say this, God and Satan are real to SOME extent.

Inside us.

Zoroastrians had a concept that we all are born with mental struggle of ASA (light) v DRUJ (darkness), and that good thoughts, words, and deeds lead us to asa, which may also mean confidence and self esteem and peace of mind.

Jihad as referred to in Islam can also refer to that internal struggle. "Fighting the enemies of Allah" essentially means sticking up for what you think is right.

So can you please tell me yet about you guys having sex with kids?

I need an answer tbh

[spurraider21]

I get a strong feeling that in Ghazi's next youtube video he'll be joining ISIS.
:lol

[Avante]

Only a 100% moron wouldn't get the violence that is Islam. Hell, just watch the news, read a paper, there it is. And it's been going on as long s we've had the hoax that is Islam.

Mohammad was a lunatic, a killer, a tyrant, and it's well documented. And he's also a liar, there was no meating the Angel Gabriel in a cave on the mountain, yep, bullshit!

All anyone has to do is Google..."Why I left Islam"....there it is.

Public beheadings, are you kidding me? Killing over cartoons, wow!

[phyzik]

Only a 100% moron wouldn't get the violence that is Islam. Hell, just watch the news, read a paper, there it is. And it's been going on as long s we've had the hoax that is Islam.

Mohammad was a lunatic, a killer, a tyrant, and it's well documented. And he's also a liar, there was no meating the Angel Gabriel in a cave on the mountain, yep, bullshit!

All anyone has to do is Google..."Why I left Islam"....there it is.

Public beheadings, are you kidding me? Killing over cartoons, wow!

The same can be said for Jesus and God in the Christian faith. If Christians would actually read THEIR bible, they would find the same fucked up shit that Islam preaches.

just saying, if you are christian and are criticizing Islam, take a damn good look in the mirror. You are no better. Your faith has just conformed to recent ideology. The true teachings of the old and new testament are no better than Islam. In that instance, Muslims are more "pious" than any currant Christian. As deplorable as it might be, they follow the teachings of their messiah. Most Christians don't even know their own bible and that is why I pick on them the most.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

The same can be said for Jesus and God in the Christian faith. If Christians would actually read THEIR bible, they would find the same fucked up shit that Islam preaches.

just saying, if you are christian and are criticizing Islam, take a damn good look in the mirror. You are no better. Your faith has just conformed to recent ideology. The true teachings of the old and new testament are no better than Islam. In that instance, Muslims are more "pious" than any currant Christian. As deplorable as it might be, they follow the teachings of their messiah. Most Christians don't even know their own bible and that is why I pick on them the most.
So your point is:::muslims are more fundamentalistic than christians. In other news, trying to eat rocks off the ground causes teeth to chip.

[Biernutz]

The same can be said for Jesus and God in the Christian faith. If Christians would actually read THEIR bible, they would find the same fucked up shit that Islam preaches.

just saying, if you are christian and are criticizing Islam, take a damn good look in the mirror. You are no better. Your faith has just conformed to recent ideology. The true teachings of the old and new testament are no better than Islam. In that instance, Muslims are more "pious" than any currant Christian. As deplorable as it might be, they follow the teachings of their messiah. Most Christians don't even know their own bible and that is why I pick on them the most.




the difference between Christians and Muslims is the christans left that barbarian bevhavior behind 1000 years ago. The Muslims have not.

[K...]

the difference between Christians and Muslims is the christans left that barbarian bevhavior behind 1000 years ago. The Muslims have not.

Europe started the renaissance by stealing pre Christian Greek ideals. And they stole the Muslims science and math. From that we built the rich west world. I'd say it's 60% protestant zeal, and 40% non religious progress that resulted in the west advancement. It wasn't like Christianity made some great advance (they kicked the pope out and gave religion to the people, created literacy based citizenry)

Muslims had their time as the dominant culture just a few hundred years after the prophet's death. Unless you credit Jesus for creating the Roman wealth it took almost 2000 years for Christians to stop killing themselves. The rise in wealth and peace also coinsides with the refusal of theocratic government and the rise of science) Rather strange to cite the current world order as evidence that one faith is better

[phyzik]

the difference between Christians and Muslims is the christans left that barbarian bevhavior behind 1000 years ago. The Muslims have not.

That may be true, but the teachings in the bible have not....Christians are quite fond of cherry picking from their sky daddy high-fantasy novels.

One of my favorites is "ohh, but thats from the OLD testament!!" as if the new testament could even exist without the old. :lol (big hint: It cannot... it literally cannot exist without the old testament, it refers to it so damn much).

Most Christians dont even know that the bible, as a whole, is comprised of many books.... hence the name "bible".... It is not even one book, but a collection of many. Up to almost 60 different books if not more.... It is just a dissection of those books and crammed together, none of which were written in the time of jesus and many of which were stolen from the Jewish faith and those even stolen from earlier faiths. That is why, if you REALLY read it, you will notice that it contradicts it's own teachings quite often.

For a book that is supposedly endorsed by a god, it sure seems quite inept and convoluted.... You would think an all powerful being would be able to get his point across much easier....

[Joseph Kony]

Your faggot prophet married and raped a 9 year old girl. these are facts

[phyzik]

Your faggot prophet married and raped a 9 year old girl. these are facts

And then there is always this fact when it comes to Islam. :tu

Also.... why text in just certain languages.... why just one man as a prophet.... why be so evasive?

Why not just project into all of your creation your ultimate meaning? Why go to the trouble of having single "prophets" to spread your word? and why so convoluted?

Of course there are going to be those among you who say "we cannot understand the mind of god".... Well, I say fuck you.... If there IS a god and he gave me this mind of mine, Im going to question shit.... If he made me this way and then he decides to punish me for using what he gave me, then he can go fuck himself.

What kind of sick bastard purposely creates something flawed and then condemns it to an eternity of pain because it is flawed? how fucked up and sadistic is that?

Again, I dont believe in this fictional character, just saying if he was real, it would be pretty fucked up.

[spurraider21]

Only a 100% moron wouldn't get the violence that is Islam. Hell, just watch the news, read a paper, there it is. And it's been going on as long s we've had the hoax that is Islam.

Mohammad was a lunatic, a killer, a tyrant, and it's well documented. And he's also a liar, there was no meating the Angel Gabriel in a cave on the mountain, yep, bullshit!

All anyone has to do is Google..."Why I left Islam"....there it is.

Public beheadings, are you kidding me? Killing over cartoons, wow!
http://www.why-christians-convert-to-islam.com/

[Ghazi]

To update this thread, Avante doesnt know a damn thing about Islam and just wants all the negative stuff and mens greed and criminal behaviors that they justify with religion to be the true reflection of Islam. He knows nothing anout Muhammads life, only an idiot would use thenword tyrant to describe Muhammad... and he was forced into war due to the treachery and broken treaties of the pagans and Jews in Arabia. Arabia was an uncivilized warmongering culture, so the Muslims were forced into early wars.. they were the persecuted ones in these early conflicts.

[Avante]

To update this thread, Avante doesnt know a damn thing about Islam and just wants all the negative stuff and mens greed and criminal behaviors that they justify with religion to be the true reflection of Islam. He knows nothing anout Muhammads life, only an idiot would use thenword tyrant to describe Muhammad... and he was forced into war due to the treachery and broken treaties of the pagans and Jews in Arabia. Arabia was an uncivilized warmongering culture, so the Muslims were forced into early wars.. they were the persecuted ones in these early conflicts.

I have 22 books right over there all about Islam/Mohammad and have read all of them. So fuck you~~~~~~~

[spankadelphia]

To update this thread, Avante doesnt know a damn thing about Islam and just wants all the negative stuff and mens greed and criminal behaviors that they justify with religion to be the true reflection of Islam. He knows nothing anout Muhammads life, only an idiot would use thenword tyrant to describe Muhammad... and he was forced into war due to the treachery and broken treaties of the pagans and Jews in Arabia. Arabia was an uncivilized warmongering culture, so the Muslims were forced into early wars.. they were the persecuted ones in these early conflicts.

Cool story, bro. Not sure how any of that is relevant in 2015.

People who perceive reality in different ways are going to have fundamental disagreements with one another. A person or a group of people's perception of something does not change the material composition of said thing. It is what it is, as they say.

The reality is, there probably is no god. No Christian god, no Muslim god, no Buddha, nothing. We are probably alone. If there "is" a higher power, we lack the ability to perceive or understand it, just like an ant has no idea who we are or what we're up to. Seems pretty narcissistic on our part to look around at the vast expanse of the universe and think it was all created for us.

[Ghazi]

The Quran is a book that is easy to misinterpret if you do not have proper context for the verses.

[313]

bump

[Stalin]

The Quran is a book that is easy to misinterpret if you do not have proper context for the verses.




In the gulag you can tell us all about it, now move along...

[DMC]

"I'm just going to put the head in slightly, I'd never do anything to hurt you" Islam to rest of World