Kawhi-Lights

[dabom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBOfRWYy6kI

Looking great. :toast

[JeffDuncan]

Beautifulness!

[FkLA]

Spurfan doesn't even realize his full offensive potential. Dude can get any shot he wants when posting up/facing up and his handles are only getting better. Top 5 in MVP voting this year tbh.

[SupremeGuy]

Spurfan doesn't even realize his full offensive potential. Dude can get any shot he wants when posting up/facing up and his handles are only getting better. Top 5 in MVP voting this year tbh.Truth bombs.

[apalisoc_9]

Spurfan doesn't even realize his full offensive potential. Dude can get any shot he wants when posting up/facing up and his handles are only getting better. Top 2 in MVP voting this year tbh.

FIFY

[FkLA]

FIFY

Would not surprise me at all. Srs.

[DarrinS]

:depressed But, Matt Barnes :depressed

[Spurtacular]

More Kawhi Spam

[Chinook]

Kawhi can get any shot he wants. But he wants a lot of bad ones.

[spurraider21]

Kawhi can get any shot he wants. But he wants a lot of bad ones.
Brace yourself.

[spursistan]

hopefully that efficiency improves..don't want him in Melo/Kobe league of 6-17 nights for his 20 points..thus far, it seems like the end of Clippers series has carried over to the pre-season..

[DarrinS]

hopefully that efficiency improves..don't want him in Melo/Kobe league of 6-17 nights for his 20 points..thus far, it seems like the end of Clippers series has carried over to the pre-season..

Meh, it beats 1-5 for 8 pts

[TheGreatYacht]

hopefully that efficiency improves..don't want him in Melo/Kobe league of 6-17 nights for his 20 points..thus far, it seems like the end of Clippers series has carried over to the pre-season..

[DarrinS]

thus far, it seems like the end of Eurobasket has carried over to the pre-season

[bic50]

Looking good :tu

[dabom]

thus far, it seems like the end of Eurobasket has carried over to the pre-season

:lmao

[spurraider21]

Meh, it beats 1-5 for 8 pts
If merely being better than Parker is the bar you're setting, then that's a pretty low standard. I think you are underestimating kawhi's potential.

I think Kawhi can and should work to improve his efficiency, and shot selection is a good start. Don't you?

[dabom]

What was his ts% last night?

[FkLA]

What are you guys seeing? I mean sure there are some bad shots here or there, but overall I'm not seeing terrible shot selection. They're the same midrange jumpshots that he normally makes. I'm sure they'll become more automatic as the season gets going. He'll go through slumps but not because his shot selection has changed...moreso just the fact that midrange jumpers can be inconsistent.

That's basically what happened in the LAC series. Barnes didn't really do shit, the same midrange shots he was making early on just stopped falling.

[spurraider21]

He is too quick to KawhISO and settle for midrange jumpers. He has the ability to score in other ways but settles for that one too often.

I think he'll get better.

[SuperCam]

hopefully that efficiency improves..don't want him in Melo/Kobe league of 6-17 nights for his 20 points..thus far, it seems like the end of Clippers series has carried over to the pre-season..


Kawhobe Bryneord, tbh

[Chinook]

Smalls playing in the post on a non-mismatch is bad offense. The fact that two of the four other players are bigs means it's really hard for him to get spacing, especially without taking someone out of the play. Then Kawhi doesn't get post-up and go. He dribbles a lot, and because it's small-on-small action, he doesn't get very far down into the paint. So he ends up taking a semi-contested mid-range turnaround. That's a bad shot. And then from the high post, he too often pulls up from like 15 feet, which isn't that good of a shot.

His game is antiquated.

[Chinook]

I thought it was last game, but maybe it was Miami where Kawhi got awesome post position off a fake screen. He was like four feet from the basket when he caught it. And he just took it for a score. It was perfect. The idea of Kawhi taking a 20-foot face-up jumper from the elbow makes me nervous those are NOT good shots, no matter how good he is at hitting them.

[dabom]

Smalls playing in the post on a non-mismatch is bad offense. The fact that two of the four other players are bigs means it's really hard for him to get spacing, especially without taking someone out of the play. Then Kawhi doesn't get post-up and go. He dribbles a lot, and because it's small-on-small action, he doesn't get very far down into the paint. So he ends up taking a semi-contested mid-range turnaround. That's a bad shot. And then from the high post, he too often pulls up from like 15 feet, which isn't that good of a shot.

His game is antiquated.

Dude won us a 'ship with an antiquated game. :lmao

Jordan and Kobe and Wade won other ships. Who do you want to lead us in scoring exactly. Don't give me a bullshit response too.

:lmao in advance if you think LMA.

[313]

I expected his handles to be better this year. Not really seeing anything new, he's just taking more shots. And like Chinook said, his shot IQ is not there..yet anyway. I'm sure Pop or one of the coaches will work with him on that.

[313]

Dude won us a 'ship with an antiquated game. :lmao

Jordan and Kobe and Wade won other ships. Who do you want to lead us in scoring exactly. Don't give me a bullshit response too.

:lmao in advance if you think LMA.he doesn't have the handles, post skill/creativity, or athleticism of any of those guys...

[dabom]

Expecting kawhi to drive it in all the time. Lmao

[spurraider21]

Dude won us a 'ship with an antiquated game. :lmao

Jordan and Kobe and Wade won other ships. Who do you want to lead us in scoring exactly. Don't give me a bullshit response too.

:lmao in advance if you think LMA.
Don't act like kawhi was playing a kobe/Wade role in the '14 finals. He didn't get fmvp because of constant kawhiso

[dabom]

He was still making his jumpshots faggot. Lmao.

[Chinook]

Dude won us a 'ship with an antiquated game. :lmao

Jordan and Kobe and Wade won other ships. Who do you want to lead us in scoring exactly. Don't give me a bullshit response too.

:lmao in advance if you think LMA.

The Spurs are paying LMA $20 Million knowing he's an offensive player. You DON'T want him to be the leading scorer? And that doesn't mention that 20 LMA points should be better for the offense than 20 Kawhi points.

[dabom]

Kawhi has a way better TS% than LMA. By far! Those 20 kawhi points are better than those 20 lma points.

[dabom]

Kawhi was averaging like 18ppg to end the last season on limited minutes. Don't give me this bull he can't average 20 a game going into his prime

[SuperCam]

The only time Kiwi was even close to the #1 option, Spurs got punked by Tom Rivers and the Clippers retardball team. Good going Kiwi, smh

[SuperCam]

Anyone can kobeball their way to 15-20 points a game on sub 40% shooting the way Kiwi has in the preseason. That fagboi jeremy lin did it for like a month straight during linsanity, lol

[dabom]

Tiago porker
green and maybe diae all shit the bed vs the clippers. Blaming kawhi? Lmao

[K...]

Daboms understanding of basketball = his understanding of engineering.


And English.....It should be Kawhi-gh-lights.

[dabom]

Does cam even know what TS% even is?

[SuperCam]

Daboms understanding of basketball = his understanding of engineering.


And English.....It should be Kawhi-gh-lights.


Yellow bellied faggot can't do HS calculus but claims he's an engineer :lmao

[dabom]

Integrals. Lmao.

[SuperCam]

Does cam even know what TS% even is?

I have an ivy league degree in stats dipshit I know more than you'll ever know fake fucking engineer :lmao

[dabom]

Ivy league degree in stats. Wtf is that? Lmao. Some bum ass degree probably.

[SuperCam]

Ivy league degree in stats. Wtf is that? Lmao. Some bum ass degree probably.
double major actually


lmao fake engineer :lmao

[dabom]

Bum ass degree times two. Lmao.

[SuperCam]

"engineer" can't do hs math :lmao

[dabom]

More like I chose not too. You still have 2 worthless degrees. Hope you don't owe any money on those. Lmao

[BillMc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBOfRWYy6kI

Looking great. :toast

Cheers. Thanks for posting. :toast

[SuperCam]

More like I chose not too. You still have 2 worthless degrees. Hope you don't owe any money on those. Lmao

I'm in management now tbh, making good coin :tu


i get to interview fake fagboi dipshits like yourself :lol

[dabom]

Cheers. Thanks for posting. :toast

Thanks Bill. :tu

You should start the GTs when the season starts. :bobo

[spurraider21]

^Retard fight. Lmao.

[dabom]

I'm in management now tbh, making good coin :tu


i get to interview fake fagboi dipshits like yourself :lol

Where is the mickeyDs located? :lmao

[dabom]

Can you please google or link to a degree of stats please. Never heard of that bunk ass shit before. :lmao

[BillMc]

There will be an interesting dynamic between our two best players not named Duncan.

Kawhi is an absolute elite defensive player who is working hard to become a good offensive player.

LaMarcus is an elite offensive player who (hopefully) will work hard to become a good defensive player. Initial signs are positive.

I would be surprised if Kawhi scores more ppg than LaMarcus this season. But that does not mean LaMarcus is the better player.

[Silver&Black]

Sup dabom....

How's my bitch doing today?

[tholdren]

There will be an interesting dynamic between our two best players not named Duncan.

Kawhi is an absolute elite defensive player who is working hard to become a good offensive player.

LaMarcus is an elite offensive player who (hopefully) will work hard to become a good defensive player. Initial signs are positive.

I would be surprised if Kawhi scores more ppg than LaMarcus this season. But that does not mean LaMarcus is the better player.
It all comes down to plus minus

[BillMc]

Thanks Bill. :tu

You should start the GTs when the season starts. :bobo

Thanks man. I'll start a few, but don't want to hog the GT's like I did last year. Share the wealth...

[dabom]

There will be an interesting dynamic between our two best players not named Duncan.

Kawhi is an absolute elite defensive player who is working hard to become a good offensive player.

LaMarcus is an elite offensive player who (hopefully) will work hard to become a good defensive player. Initial signs are positive.

I would be surprised if Kawhi scores more ppg than LaMarcus this season. But that does not mean LaMarcus is the better player.

Totally agree Bill. I give the edge to KAwhi in the scoring department because he is accustomed to the system and is going to get more minutes.

[dabom]

Sup dabom....

How's my bitch doing today?

You mean the guy with the confederate flag? Idunno. :lmao

[DeRozan m8]

TGY is such a sad sack of shit hahahah

[DeRozan m8]

The only time Kiwi was even close to the #1 option, Spurs got punked by Tom Rivers and the Clippers retardball team. Good going Kiwi, smh

Thank Parker for that series

[dabom]

RIP SuperCam

:lmao

[dabom]

Time to make a new alt. Same shtick though. :lmao

[SuperCam]

Thank Parker for that series

Without MVParker, Kiwi literally only made on three point field goal, smh

[dabom]

TGY can't make it even more obvious. :lmao

[SuperCam]

http://i.imgur.com/HKvX0j7.png

[BD24]

http://i.imgur.com/HKvX0j7.png
:lmao

[spurraider21]

Can you please google or link to a degree of stats please. Never heard of that bunk ass shit before. :lmao
It's probably on the same page as civil engineers who don't know basic calculus

[dabom]

Faggot. Lmao.

[dabom]

Daycare. Lmao.

[TheGreatYacht]

http://i.imgur.com/HKvX0j7.png
:lmao

[Silver&Black]

It's probably on the same page as civil engineers who don't know basic calculus

spurraider21....

My nigga.

[dabom]

I'm not even sure tgy is your main. Lmao.

[dabom]

Eit or nah?

[TheGreatYacht]

I'm not even sure tgy is your main. Lmao.

TGY can't make it even more obvious. :lmao
Rent-free

[dabom]

Why you even doubling down?. Lmao

[Silver&Black]

dabom....I've already explained (in detail) that posting things that could belong to anybody doesn't impress me. Like my MS State degree I posted with the ":lmao Faggot" note on it. Technically, it could belong to anybody. And for what it's worth....you haven't posted a gotdamn thing yet...you just call people faggots and :lol at your own zingers.

You want to really show me that you're a civil engineer....just have a basic conversation with me about it. I mean for God's sake...I asked you what field you specialized in and you said, "I'd rather not say." :lol Like it's a matter of national security for you to tell anybody that :lol

Let's talk about structural analysis....cutting beams....free body diagrams...axial forces...moments...the sum of all forces = 0...the sum of all forces = mass x acceleration....traffic signal timing plans...Bernoulli's equation...thermodynamics...ideal gas law....whatever you want my friend.

Bottom line you fucking scrub...If you can't do integrals in Calculus....I don't believe a fucking word you say. I've done thousands upon thousands of them....and would accept the challenge to do the basic ones without any hesitation.

Now keep talking about posting your brother's EIT certificate....like that'll impress me.

[Trill Clinton]

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2817947/billbored.gif

[dabom]

dabom....I've already explained (in detail) that posting things that could belong to anybody doesn't impress me. Like my MS State degree I posted with the ":lmao Faggot" note on it. Technically, it could belong to anybody. And for what it's worth....you haven't posted a gotdamn thing yet...you just call people faggots and :lol at your own zingers.

You want to really show me that you're a civil engineer....just have a basic conversation with me about it. I mean for God's sake...I asked you what field you specialized in and you said, "I'd rather not say." :lol Like it's a matter of national security for you to tell anybody that :lol

Let's talk about structural analysis....cutting beams....free body diagrams...axial forces...moments...the sum of all forces = 0...the sum of all forces = mass x acceleration....traffic signal timing plans...Bernoulli's equation...thermodynamics...ideal gas law....whatever you want my friend.

Bottom line you fucking scrub...If you can't do integrals in Calculus....I don't believe a fucking word you say. I've done thousands upon thousands of them....and would accept the challenge to do the basic ones without any hesitation.

Now keep talking about posting your brother's EIT certificate....like that'll impress me.

Keep talking. You still don't have one. :lmao

[SuperCam]

dabom....I've already explained (in detail) that posting things that could belong to anybody doesn't impress me. Like my MS State degree I posted with the ":lmao Faggot" note on it. Technically, it could belong to anybody. And for what it's worth....you haven't posted a gotdamn thing yet...you just call people faggots and :lol at your own zingers.

You want to really show me that you're a civil engineer....just have a basic conversation with me about it. I mean for God's sake...I asked you what field you specialized in and you said, "I'd rather not say." :lol Like it's a matter of national security for you to tell anybody that :lol

Let's talk about structural analysis....cutting beams....free body diagrams...axial forces...moments...the sum of all forces = 0...the sum of all forces = mass x acceleration....traffic signal timing plans...Bernoulli's equation...thermodynamics...ideal gas law....whatever you want my friend.

Bottom line you fucking scrub...If you can't do integrals in Calculus....I don't believe a fucking word you say. I've done thousands upon thousands of them....and would accept the challenge to do the basic ones without any hesitation.

Now keep talking about posting your brother's EIT certificate....like that'll impress me.

:wow

Fckn got 'em

[DeRozan m8]

Without MVParker, Kiwi literally only made on three point field goal, smh

Are you autistic?

[TheGreatYacht]

Are you autistic?
Why are you calling people autistic? Smh it's okay when you do it though, right?

[tholdren]

parker stan is idot and never accept the truth,parker lost the series last year,leonard played 4 gd games,and parker ? when he pass the ball,the spurs win,otherwise the spurs lost,because he plays heroes, basketball
KL lost the finals when he couldn't make a FT. He also lost the series last year when he couldn't score on Barnes. Sad that a "finals MVP" was out played all season and all playoffs by someone with one leg and almost 40. KL is almost as overrated as Carmelo

[DeRozan m8]

LMAO these Parker stans are hilarious.
You can find these insecure bitches - like TGY - in every Leonard thread, basically shitting their pants and eating it.

No ones trying to take away Parkers legacy, he hasn't been very helpful lately though, which is the concern.
Plus he's older and isn't going to be what he used to be, as if someone who isn't stupid can't just see this?
Weirdos

[K...]

Wow, Parker living rent free, pissing in the sink, playing his own rap with a subwoofer so the streets shake......



....in a Kawhi thread.

We got em. Kawhi player fans never fail to expose their sensitivity. We didn't even have to bring up Barnes lol. Too easy.

[FkLA]

He is too quick to KawhISO and settle for midrange jumpers. He has the ability to score in other ways but settles for that one too often.

I think he'll get better.


Smalls playing in the post on a non-mismatch is bad offense. The fact that two of the four other players are bigs means it's really hard for him to get spacing, especially without taking someone out of the play. Then Kawhi doesn't get post-up and go. He dribbles a lot, and because it's small-on-small action, he doesn't get very far down into the paint. So he ends up taking a semi-contested mid-range turnaround. That's a bad shot. And then from the high post, he too often pulls up from like 15 feet, which isn't that good of a shot.

His game is antiquated.

Wut. His finishing and handles are still developing, which makes his midrange game the best part of his halfcourt game. I'm not sure why he wouldn't use it often just bc it doesn't fit yalls definition of what a good shot is? I mean I guess I could understand if he shot 40% over the course of an entire season but I don't see that happening. He was shooting closer to 60% during that great stretch last year to end the season.

[apalisoc_9]

A midrange isn't a bad shot if your hitting them at 43+%.

Parker and Aldridge lived off Midrange jumpers in their prime.

:lol


Someone is losing touches in the spurs, so people are a bit sour right now...If it wasn't for Kawhi's offense, the spurs were on route to possibly not even make the playoffs last year....:lol

[FkLA]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csj7tsa35KA

Pull-Ups, Stepbacks, fadeaways, face-ups, etc

Great footwork. So fucking smooth and fluid. Can get any of these shots so effortlessly, it's not like Rique who needs to run a loop to get a midrange brick off.

[spurraider21]

"isolation mix" starts off with a bunch of catch-and-shoot situations :lol

nobody is denying he has a really strong midrange game... that doesn't mean he doesnt take some bad midrange shots. i think he can clean it up, though

[apalisoc_9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csj7tsa35KA

Pull-Ups, Stepbacks, fadeaways, face-ups, etc

Great footwork. So fucking smooth and fluid. Can get any of these shots so effortlessly, it's not like Rique who needs to run a loop to get a midrange brick off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=285pj1hXxCI

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi is actually much more efficient with a dribble shot than out of catch and situations..

[BillMc]

:wakeup

[Kawhitstorm]

I thought it was last game, but maybe it was Miami where Kawhi got awesome post position off a fake screen. He was like four feet from the basket when he caught it. And he just took it for a score. It was perfect. The idea of Kawhi taking a 20-foot face-up jumper from the elbow makes me nervous those are NOT good shots, no matter how good he is at hitting them.

Yeah he should be flashing to the post, sealing his defender then catching the ball & taking a shot without dribbling. Otherwise he could just seal pump fake then go up & under kind of like LMA. He can get the fade-away from the elbow anytime he wants so that should just be a bail out shot. Jordan did become dependent on his fade-away until his mid 30s. Kobe wanted to be just like Mike & was shooting fade-aways every other time down the floor when he was 21. Kawhi is still learning so I'm hoping he will diversify his offensive repertoire once he gets comfortable driving to the bucket.

[Kawhitstorm]

Kawhi is actually much more efficient with a dribble shot than out of catch and situations..

He is money w/ his FT line pull-up when grabs the rebound & bring the ball up w/ the intention of scoring. It's usually a layup/dunk/foul or pull up.

[FkLA]

"isolation mix" starts off with a bunch of catch-and-shoot situations :lol

nobody is denying he has a really strong midrange game... that doesn't mean he doesnt take some bad midrange shots. i think he can clean it up, though

:lol That's so stupid and irrelevant because that can be said for anybody. Timmy has a really strong postgame but takes some bad post shots sometimes. Danny has a really strong 3 PT shot but takes some bad 3s sometimes. Rique is really strong at sucking but can make a shot sometimes.

[apalisoc_9]

Seriously from last night, he took 2 "bad" shots at most.:lol...

Every darn superstar in the league takes a few bad shots every game. It happens, they have the ball in their hands most of the time....:lol

[spurraider21]

:lol That's so stupid and irrelevant because that can be said for anybody. Timmy has a really strong postgame but takes some bad post shots sometimes. Danny has a really strong 3 PT shot but takes some bad 3s sometimes. Rique is really strong at sucking but can make a shot sometimes.
kawhi takes too many bad shots, its why his efficiency dipped last year. i think he can get better with his shot selection

i'm sorry that you dont think kawhi can improve. u must be a hater

[FkLA]

Seriously from last night, he took 2 "bad" shots at most.:lol...

Every darn superstar in the league takes a few bad shots every game. It happens, they have the ball in their hands most of the time....:lol

Not to mention the fact that it's the preseason tbh.


kawhi takes too many bad shots, its why his efficiency dipped last year. i think he can get better with his shot selection

i'm sorry that you dont think kawhi can improve. u must be a hater

Has nothing to do with me thinking he can't improve. He can and will improve, but he'll do that quicker by doing it through his midrange game. Not by "not settling" and forcing stuff inside when finishing isn't necessarily his strong suit yet.

[spurraider21]

passing is an option too. when he gets the ball in the mid-post, he's deadly. a bully. he's also a bit of a black hole. i think he can improve in that department

[apalisoc_9]

"I want kawhi to improve by staying on his comfort zone" :lol

[spurraider21]

being a playmaker isn't "in his comfort zone" and is the next step in his development imo. thats not going to come from jacking up more turnaround midrange shots.

apparently your idea of improvement/development is to do the same exact things but taking more contested shots

[FkLA]

passing is an option too. when he gets the ball in the mid-post, he's deadly. a bully. he's also a bit of a black hole. i think he can improve in that department

One, let's not act like he's Kobe. He takes bad shots sometimes, we can all agree on that but it's not so regular that he's shooting 40% or freezing out teammates. He's not taking shots over 2-3 guys. Two, some of you are too enamored with team ball. Yeah, 2014 was perfect but that style puts a lot of pressure on the system and on average players to shoot out of their minds. Having guys like Kawhi and LMA who can have success in isos is far from a bad thing.

[spurraider21]

One, let's not act like he's Kobe. He takes bad shots sometimes, we can all agree on that but it's not so regular that he's shooting 40% or freezing out teammates. He's not taking shots over 2-3 guys. Two, some of you are too enamored with team ball. Yeah, 2014 was perfect but that style puts a lot of pressure on the system and on average players to shoot out of their minds. Having guys like Kawhi and LMA who can have success in isos is far from a bad thing.
having guys that can succeed in iso situations is obviously important. sometimes, your set plays dont work, a pass gets deflected, etc, and suddenly you gave 8 seconds to reset and get a shot off. in those situations, i'm fine with dumping the ball to kawhi or LMA, and letting them go to work. i just see a lot of times where kawhi gets the ball and goes into iso too early in the clock.

a contested midrange shot is a shot you can get virtually any time you want.

[apalisoc_9]

One, let's not act like he's Kobe. He takes bad shots sometimes, we can all agree on that but it's not so regular that he's shooting 40% or freezing out teammates. He's not taking shots over 2-3 guys. Two, some of you are too enamored with team ball. Yeah, 2014 was perfect but that style puts a lot of pressure on the system and on average players to shoot out of their minds. Having guys like Kawhi and LMA who can have success in isos is far from a bad thing.

The spurs 2014 was an outlier since it's the only team to not rely on offensive star production. It really needs a good balance of Star Power and Team ball. Trying to recreate 2014 is criminal. You can't consistently count on cumulative play to beat consistent Star production....I don't believe any team xan ever replicate that team. Atlanta tried to but eventually their players started to wet the bed and with no Star power to go to, they almost lost to a shitty wizards team.

The Warriors have a really good balance in terms of playing team ball and relying on star power to generate offense, IMO.

[FkLA]

having guys that can succeed in iso situations is obviously important. sometimes, your set plays dont work, a pass gets deflected, etc, and suddenly you gave 8 seconds to reset and get a shot off. in those situations, i'm fine with dumping the ball to kawhi or LMA, and letting them go to work. i just see a lot of times where kawhi gets the ball and goes into iso too early in the clock.

a contested midrange shot is a shot you can get virtually any time you want.

:lol No. Obviously they need to have set iso plays to get them proper spacing/into their sweet spots. You can't just use their talents to bail you out when shit goes wrong. Those would truly be low percentage shots.

You need to have a healthy dose of both set plays and set isos. Which Pop does a good job of, and if anything he's guilty of not getting Kawhi enough shots not the other way around.


The spurs 2014 was an outlier since it's the only team to not rely on offensive star production. It really needs a good balance of Star Power and Team ball. Trying to recreate 2014 is criminal. You can't consistently count on cumulative play to beat consistent Star production....I don't believe any team xan ever replicate that team. Atlanta tried to but eventually their players started to wet the bed and with no Star power to go to, they almost lost to a shitty wizards team.

The Warriors have a really good balance in terms of playing team ball and relying on star power to generate offense, IMO.

elite poster apa raising the bar per par tbh

[spurraider21]

:lol... as if aldridge doesn't provide "offensive star production"

[apalisoc_9]

:lol... as if aldridge doesn't provide "offensive star production"

I was talking about the 2014 run you dumbass. And if you're thinking Aldridge should be the only guy providing Star production, you're even a bigger dumbass than I thought. stick to talking shit about Turkey.

kawhi and Aldridge are going to offer star Production. That's what the spurs are OBVIOUSLY trying to hope for this year otherwise, you won't see Kawhi on Pace of taking 25 shots a game in pre-season or Aldridge getting a stupid amount of ISO plays. They want a perfect balance of Star production and Points of ball movement....

FYI, Kawhi is a much more efficient Post up player than Aldridge as a 3.:lol

[FkLA]

I was talking about the 2014 run you dumbass. And if you're thinking Aldridge should be the only guy providing Star production, you're even a bigger dumbass than I thought. stick to talking shit about Turkey.

kawhi and Aldridge are going to offer star Production. That's what the spurs are OBVIOUSLY trying to hope for this year otherwise, you won't see Kawhi on Pace of taking 25 shots a game in pre-season or Aldridge getting a stupid amount of ISO plays. They want a perfect balance of Star production and Points of ball movement....

FYI, Kawhi is a much more efficient Post up player than Aldridge as a 3.:lol

apa=white jersey
spurraider=orange jersey


http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/10-16-2015/C3EtQj.gif

[spurraider21]

i fully expect LMA and Kawhi to be the top 2 scorers... routinely in this thread i've complemented kawhi for his game. i think he can improve his shot selection. i'm sorry that you think he's already reached his ceiling. unlike you, i think he can get better

[apalisoc_9]

i fully expect LMA and Kawhi to be the top 2 scorers... routinely in this thread i've complemented kawhi for his game. i think he can improve his shot selection. i'm sorry that you think he's already reached his ceiling. unlike you, i think he can get better

No one is saying he can't get better. Unlike you, I have already pinned him down as future Hall of famer three years ago and a future MVP candidate years before you become a spursfan in 2013. No one is even talking about his ceiling here.

The topic is if he should be taking midrange shots and if he's making a terrible bad amount of bad shots. The simple answer is, he's an elite Midrage shooter and is going to have the ball in his hand quite a bit this season so he's bound to take some bad shots. Every Player does. Lebron, TD prime, or whoever will take a bad shot or two in a game. That's normal. last night he took 2 at most...1 if we're really going to argue about it.

He isn't taking Kobe or Iverson like bad shots. That's what FLKA is trying to argue for. Stop being obtuse.

[313]

It's probably on the same page as civil engineers who don't know basic calculus
:lmao

[FkLA]

i fully expect LMA and Kawhi to be the top 2 scorers... routinely in this thread i've complemented kawhi for his game. i think he can improve his shot selection. i'm sorry that you think he's already reached his ceiling. unlike you, i think he can get better

Stop trying to deflect by making it about ceilings or improvement. You said he's 'settling' for midrange jumpers. That's an incredibly stupid statement considering how it's easily the best part of his halfcourt offense.

[313]

"I want kawhi to improve by staying on his comfort zone" :lol
:lol asian reading comprehension

[apalisoc_9]

No don't let kawhi use his part of his offensive arsenal...:cry

[apalisoc_9]

:lol asian reading comprehension

Stop quoting me you moron. I don't like getting shitty notifications from Shitty Irrelevant posters. If you haven't guessed it yet, I don't respond to you and never will. So stop following me around like a used whore looking for attention.

[313]

Stop quoting me you moron. I don't like getting shitty notifications from Shitty Irrelevant posters. If you haven't guessed it yet, I don't respond to you and never will. So stop following me around like a used whore looking for attention.
:lol following you around
:lol we post on the same fucking forum

[313]

Stop trying to deflect by making it about ceilings or improvement. You said he's 'settling' for midrange jumpers. That's an incredibly stupid statement considering how it's easily the best part of his halfcourt offense.
I'd argue his transistion, then post game, then mid range are his top areas of production. Obviously he shouldn't abandon his mid range, but it shouldn't be his highest usage area of scoring as he progresses and starts getting more touches which it looks like he will this season..

[apalisoc_9]

Last year Kawhi made 51% of his two pointers and 48.1 from 10-16 :lol..In route to getting his team back from contention. If Pop had never instructed Kawhi to just play the game and play his offense, what do you think could have happened in the in the last two months of the season? :lol

48.1....

In comparison, the guy you guys don't have a problem with taking midragen jumpshots..Shot

39.1

Kawhi is BY FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR in A GALAXY away the best midrange shooter in this team. It's part of his game. Why the F would you even argue against it? He took the same kind of Pull ups, post, high Post midrange last year...and he's going to continue taking it.

Not wanting a player to take a shot he's extremely efficient with :lol...

[spurraider21]

Last year Kawhi made 51% of his two pointers and 48.1 from 10-16 :lol..In route to getting his team back from contention. If Pop had never instructed Kawhi to just play the game and play his offense, what do you think could have happened in the in the last two months of the season? :lol

48.1....

In comparison, the guy you guys don't have a problem with taking midragen jumpshots..Shot

39.1

Kawhi is BY FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR in A GALAXY away the best midrange shooter in this team. It's part of his game. Why the F would you even argue against it? He took the same kind of Pull ups, post, high Post midrange...and he's going to continue taking it.
he shot 47% from 10-16 feet, not 48.1

and he shot than 42 from 16 feet -3 point line

and his shot attempts from both ranges were virtually identical

https://i.gyazo.com/bfb1cf43f67a85038e66eecf4b5f5713.png

[313]

35% from 3 vs 41% from 2, hmm

[apalisoc_9]

He shot 48.1 from 10-16 and 416% from 16< according to basketball reference....not 47.

He's not going to shot 10-16 significantly higher than 16<..otherwise his midrange fakes are going to be useless.

All in all he's shooting the 10-16 and 16< combined at an efficient rate. that's what matters. I'll have a problem with his game if he starts taking more shots in 16< than 10-16...But we all know this discussion was about last night game and the preseason in general and he hasn't shown any sign that he'll shoot the former more than the latter. He needs balance. between three points, 16< and 10-16..it's called being unpredictable.

If he's going to totally abandon 16< he'll more than likely going to lose efficiency at 10-16 just because he'd be super predictable to defend.

[apalisoc_9]

Offensive Options likes Kawhi who have the option to shoot anywhere have the luxury of being unpredictable with where they're going to take their shots..3's, 2's or drives..it's called diversifying an offensive game. It isn't as simple..hey you're better here..make sure you take most if not all of you shots here ok..That's hilariously stupid.

[FkLA]

I'd argue his transistion, then post game, then mid range are his top areas of production. Obviously he shouldn't abandon his mid range, but it shouldn't be his highest usage area of scoring as he progresses and starts getting more touches which it looks like he will this season..

His production in transition is up there but it isn't halfcourt offense. His postgame intertwines with his midrange game, since a lot of his FGAs on post-ups are outside the paint.

[FkLA]

:lol damn apa is obliterating everybody in his path today

[spurraider21]

i pulled my numbers from bball reference. apalisoc ignoring facts

he's using kawhi's shooting figures from 13-14 when he had a more limited offensive role, rather than 14-15 when he became top dog and leading scorer :lol

[spurraider21]

:lol damn apa is obliterating everybody in his path today
lol cheerleader posts

[apalisoc_9]

i pulled my numbers from bball reference. apalisoc ignoring facts

http://i62.tinypic.com/25z5gf5.png

You're ignoring facts, as Always.

[spurraider21]

https://i.gyazo.com/cde8f1e6d443da7a5c26fd69ea5d1612.png

https://i.gyazo.com/7992167033528282d25a1e587080b93c.png

[spurraider21]

seems like bball reference isn't consistent with itself depending on which page you are viewing

edit: i think the numbers i'm looking at combine reg season and playoffs

[apalisoc_9]

i pulled my numbers from bball reference. apalisoc ignoring facts

he's using kawhi's shooting figures from 13-14 when he had a more limited offensive role, rather than 14-15 when he became top dog and leading scorer :lol

You're a big fat liar..and you just obviously admitted that a few post after.

Congrats, your're showing improvement..you're a step towards your ceiling.

[Kool Bob Love]

You're ignoring facts, as Always.

Yeezus. :worthy:

[apalisoc_9]

i pulled my numbers from bball reference. apalisoc ignoring facts

he's using kawhi's shooting figures from 13-14 when he had a more limited offensive role, rather than 14-15 when he became top dog and leading scorer :lol

Kawhi shot 46% in 13-14 at that range and 48% as a top dog.

Stop embarrassing yourself...

[spurraider21]

i showed my numbers, they're accurate. they just include postseason play. i understand why you'd want to ignore kawhi's 14-15 postseason numbers where he shot ~40% from 10-16

i assumed you were using the previous years numbers, because in the stats i posted, he shot 48% from 10-16 in 2013-2014. but again, i didnt realize the page i was viewing included postseason numbers

[apalisoc_9]

i showed my numbers, they're accurate. they just include postseason play. i understand why you'd want to ignore kawhi's 14-15 postseason numbers where he shot ~40% from 10-16

i assumed you were using the previous years numbers, because in the stats i posted, he shot 48% from 10-16 in 2013-2014. but again, i didnt realize the page i was viewing included postseason numbers

You're just making up lies right now. If you really did include the Post-Season in both numbers, then you'd have kawhi shooting 41 at 16<, instead you had him at 47% for 10-16 (playoff stats) and 42 for 16<. You made a mistake. just admit instead of trying to throw shots and trying to zig zig your way out of a mistake.

[spurraider21]

i posted screenshots. if you're going to call bball reference inaccurate, thats your deal

[apalisoc_9]

i posted screenshots. if you're going to call bball reference inaccurate, thats your deal

Except you accused me of ignoring the post-season, when that's far from the truth....I'm not even talking about bball reference.

this difference of 1% doesn't excuse you from your complete lack of understanding how to utilize an offensive option that can shot in all distances...

Allowing star production points will always come with bad shots, every game..It's just a matter of lowering those numbers and Kawhi is doing a great job of minimizing those bad shots...Heck guys like Curry who I consider as the best offensive player in the league takes multiple terrible shots a game...It's part of the game. You cant tell a star player you're expecting star production from to stop taking jumpers they're comfortable taking...

We want kawhi to take more 10-16 than 16<..but he's never going to abandon 16< and he really shouldn't....

[spurraider21]

i acknowledged the differences between our stats, which in effect recanted my accusation

[pookenstein]

http://i62.tinypic.com/25z5gf5.png

You're ignoring facts, as Always.

:lmao Kanye West

[FkLA]

I'm cringing at spurraider's posts. Srs.

[apalisoc_9]

Not sure what's wrong with Kanye's track "Amazing"...shit is dupe.

[pookenstein]

:vomit:

[pookenstein]

But, I apologize. This is not the place to talk about your taste in music.

[tholdren]

He shot 48.1 from 10-16 and 416% from 16< according to basketball reference....not 47.

He's not going to shot 10-16 significantly higher than 16<..otherwise his midrange fakes are going to be useless.

All in all he's shooting the 10-16 and 16< combined at an efficient rate. that's what matters. I'll have a problem with his game if he starts taking more shots in 16< than 10-16...But we all know this discussion was about last night game and the preseason in general and he hasn't shown any sign that he'll shoot the former more than the latter. He needs balance. between three points, 16< and 10-16..it's called being unpredictable.

If he's going to totally abandon 16< he'll more than likely going to lose efficiency at 10-16 just because he'd be super predictable to defend.


That's not how defense of offense works. Have you ever played organized basketball at a high level?

[dabom]

I'm cringing at spurraider's posts. Srs.

:lmao

[Chinook]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csj7tsa35KA

Who the hell would make a video just for that?

Anyway, yeah, there are a TON of poor shots in that video. Baseline fadeaways off cross court dribbles with 15 seconds left on the shot clock? Disgusting. Face-up jumpers with multiple teammates open beyond the arc? Yeah, not good. And these are his highlights. His shot-selection does suck.

What he did that I really liked in that vid is that he attacked mismatches. He used his speed against big guys and overpowered smalls. His highlights were almost exclusively in these situations, which is what you want. It also implies that he has less success against defenders his own size, which is to be expected. It's that diet of shots that he needs to cut back on, though, as well as early clock two-pointers.

It's really cool that Kawhi has the talent to make these plays work as much as they do. But that doesn't make those plays good for the offense at all.


Wut. His finishing and handles are still developing, which makes his midrange game the best part of his halfcourt game. I'm not sure why he wouldn't use it often just bc it doesn't fit yalls definition of what a good shot is? I mean I guess I could understand if he shot 40% over the course of an entire season but I don't see that happening. He was shooting closer to 60% during that great stretch last year to end the season.

Just because he doesn't have a better shot doesn't mean the TEAM doesn't have a better one. That's why Kawhi can't just jack up midrange shots all day. They're bad for a team, and if they're the best he can do, he needs to shoot less until that changes. Obviously things are different when he goes into big-head mode. But that's true of ever player.

[tholdren]

Who the hell would make a video just for that?

Anyway, yeah, there are a TON of poor shots in that video. Baseline fadeaways off cross court dribbles with 15 seconds left on the shot clock? Disgusting. Face-up jumpers with multiple teammates open beyond the arc? Yeah, not good. And these are his highlights. His shot-selection does suck.

What he did that I really liked in that vid is that he attacked mismatches. He used his speed against big guys and overpowered smalls. His highlights were almost exclusively in these situations, which is what you want. It also implies that he has less success against defenders his own size, which is to be expected. It's that diet of shots that he needs to cut back on, though, as well as early clock two-pointers.

It's really cool that Kawhi has the talent to make these plays work as much as they do. But that doesn't make those plays good for the offense at all.



Just because he doesn't have a better shot doesn't mean the TEAM doesn't have a better one. That's why Kawhi can't just jack up midrange shots all day. They're bad for a team, and if they're the best he can do, he needs to shoot less until that changes. Obviously things are different when he goes into big-head mode. But that's true of ever player.
100. Until Leonard can understand the situation he won't be the team leader.

[313]

That's not how defense of offense works. Have you ever played organized basketball at a high level?
Ya according to that guy Kawhi uses mid range shots(<16) to open up mid range shots (10-16) lol never heard that before

[Seventyniner]

Go read this: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-nbas-next-shooting-revolution-has-already-been-televised/


https://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/unnamed.png

That picture is worth a thousand words. The same shot from the same part of the floor, even by the same player, doesn't always have the same value. Wide open pick-and-pop jumpers, even when they're dreaded "long 2s," are efficient enough to not hurt your offense. Kawhi takes far too many of those shots on the left, unassisted midrage jumpers.

[ceperez]

Go read this: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-nbas-next-shooting-revolution-has-already-been-televised/


https://espngrantland.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/unnamed.png

That picture is worth a thousand words. The same shot from the same part of the floor, even by the same player, doesn't always have the same value. Wide open pick-and-pop jumpers, even when they're dreaded "long 2s," are efficient enough to not hurt your offense. Kawhi takes far too many of those shots on the left, unassisted midrage jumpers.

This could be a big problem if the Spurs settle with their two highest paid players taking mostly midrange unassisted shots.

[K...]

This could be a big problem if the Spurs settle with their two highest paid players taking mostly midrange unassisted shots.

Eh, the goal is to have mediocre players always move the ball and have your stars break down the defense. If everyone plays for the assist you have to move the ball especially well or the defense will not respect the shot and play passing lanes.


The article explicitly says, guys who can make mid range shots are valuable and shouldn't be considered inefficient because they are providing diversity and unpredictably to the team.

[Chinook]

Yeah, so it's about balance. There are great midrange shots to take based on the situation in addition making something happen, you have shots like Parker's and Westbrook's pull-ups, which are necessary in keeping defenders from sagging back to contain the drive.

[Seventyniner]

My point was similar to Chinook's, in that if you want to force-feed Kawhi and run the offense through him, you're mainly going to get unassisted mid-range jumpers. He needs to be heavily involved, but not as the focal point where everything starts.

[apalisoc_9]

Who the hell would make a video just for that?

Anyway, yeah, there are a TON of poor shots in that video. Baseline fadeaways off cross court dribbles with 15 seconds left on the shot clock? Disgusting. Face-up jumpers with multiple teammates open beyond the arc? Yeah, not good. And these are his highlights. His shot-selection does suck.

What he did that I really liked in that vid is that he attacked mismatches. He used his speed against big guys and overpowered smalls. His highlights were almost exclusively in these situations, which is what you want. It also implies that he has less success against defenders his own size, which is to be expected. It's that diet of shots that he needs to cut back on, though, as well as early clock two-pointers.

It's really cool that Kawhi has the talent to make these plays work as much as they do. But that doesn't make those plays good for the offense at all.



Just because he doesn't have a better shot doesn't mean the TEAM doesn't have a better one. That's why Kawhi can't just jack up midrange shots all day. They're bad for a team, and if they're the best he can do, he needs to shoot less until that changes. Obviously things are different when he goes into big-head mode. But that's true of ever player.

You're completely missing the point. His face up are complete isolation plays with hardly anyone open unless if your'e going for a cross pass...

Where the hell are you getting your stats? Kawhi isn't just jacking up mid-range shots. You're completely trying to exaggerate every facet of his game to a negative and competently ignoring the fact that this team is looking for a perfect balance of Star production and Team shots...Holy shit I xan make a video of any superstar in this league and assume they take the worst shots.

No he doesn't need to shoot less. You don't grow up by putting limitations. You're in complete denial with how this team is progressing......

[apalisoc_9]

My point was similar to Chinook's, in that if you want to force-feed Kawhi and run the offense through him, you're mainly going to get unassisted mid-range jumpers. He needs to be heavily involved, but not as the focal point where everything starts.

Except there isn't an offensive force in the perimeter who is as good as Kawhi.

You're trying to argue for 2014 spurs ball in 2016..That's not going to work. This team doesn't have a fast PG or a penetrating SG that allows for that system to work anymore.

[tholdren]

Except there isn't an offensive force in the perimeter who is as good as Kawhi.

You're trying to argue for 2014 spurs ball in 2016..That's not going to work. This team doesn't have a fast PG or a penetrating SG that allows for that system to work anymore.
Sure spurs do, Mills proved that last playoffs

[YGWHI]

Smalls playing in the post on a non-mismatch is bad offense....His game is antiquated.

Well, Pop said this week, he wants Kawhi posting more and more...he envisions him as a post-up player.

"We’re going to put (Leonard) in the post more and more, so he’s got to learn what his go-to moves are, what he feels comfortable with and the type of (defenders) that are going to come after him (while in the post). Just like they came after Timmy early in his career, they’ll go after Kawhi"

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2015/10/13/for-kawhi-leonard-the-goal-is-more-championships-nothing-more/

[apalisoc_9]

Sure spurs do, Mills proved that last playoffs

Mills won't be playing 35 minutes..not with Tony on the team.

[Chinook]

You're completely missing the point. His face up are complete isolation plays with hardly anyone open unless if your'e going for a cross pass...

Yeah, and those aren't particularly good plays to call. It's one thing to iso on a mismatch. But why should the Spurs stop running their offense for Leonard to iso on decent defenders?


Where the hell are you getting your stats? Kawhi isn't just jacking up mid-range shots.

I'm saying that even in that video he's taking bad shots.


You're completely trying to exaggerate every facet of his game to a negative/QUOTE]

I'm not. You guys are the ones saying he should take iso midranges because they're his best shots. I'm saying those shots should be minimized in an offense. There are plenty of ways to get a player good shots, even midrange shots, that don't involve isolation plays. Even when the offense was completely Parker-centric the team had a lot of different ways of getting him the ball in motion and ready to shoot.

[QUOTE]ignoring the fact that this team is looking for a perfect balance of Star production and Team shots.

Yes, the point of this balance is to find a way to get the offense to work to the "star". The offense is supposed to help him get open, and he's supposed to help others get going. Iso plays don't do that. It's good for a player to know how to score one-on-one, but by no means should an offense just stop for Kawhi, especially when he shares a lineup with four guys who all have higher career-scoring games than him. They all need the ball. Kawhi might be a 20 ppg scorer, but LMA will be at least that high. Danny will be 13-15 (or at least should because of his efficiency). Parker isn't dropping down to single-figures, and I expect Tim to still get double-digits as well. The Sours are not going to be the Kawhi show on offense for a whole season. Too much talent for that.


You don't grow up by putting limitations.

Yes, you do. You grow up by learning your boundaries. The best players figure out what they do well and emphasize it. Then you have players like Melo and Kobe who never learn. That's what you'll end up getting if you don't realize that bad shots are a big deal.

[Chinook]

Well, Pop said this week, he wants Kawhi posting more and more...he envisions him as a post-up player.

"We’re going to put (Leonard) in the post more and more, so he’s got to learn what his go-to moves are, what he feels comfortable with and the type of (defenders) that are going to come after him (while in the post). Just like they came after Timmy early in his career, they’ll go after Kawhi"

http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursnation/2015/10/13/for-kawhi-leonard-the-goal-is-more-championships-nothing-more/



The post game was completely different when Tim was learning it. It'll be easier for Kawhi with LMA and West instead of Splitter and Baynes. But that only goes so far. I'm fine with him posting up after getting good position off some movement and then going. There are a lot of ways to get to that point. I'm not okay with him trying to back a SF down from 16 feet away for five or six seconds before taking a turnaround.

[dabom]

Can someone show me at least 3 clips of kawhi backing someone down from the 16 foot mark?

[dabom]

He usually faces up from that distance.

[YGWHI]

My point was similar to Chinook's, in that if you want to force-feed Kawhi and run the offense through him, you're mainly going to get unassisted mid-range jumpers. He needs to be heavily involved, but not as the focal point where everything starts.

-The Spurs wont' to run the offense through Kawhi.

-Unassisted shots aren't that bad when you have a guy who can hit those jumpers.

55% of Kawhi playoffs shots in 2014 were unassisted and the Spurs won a ship.
Last season once Kawhi was fully recovered from his eye injury/blurry vision which affected his shooting, he was making those shots, too.

Frankly, I'm not worried about Kawhi shots.

[Chinook]

Can someone show me at least 3 clips of kawhi backing someone down from the 16 foot mark?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23IY_FLd4ck

The video is full of them. The 16-foot mark is not that far for post position at all. But unless you have a mismatch or the post defender is horrible, it takes a really long time to get there.

[YGWHI]

I'm not okay with him trying to back a SF down from 16 feet away for five or six seconds before taking a turnaround.
Well, if his turnarounds look like in the first preseason game in Sacramento, I'm okay.

Kawhi was working a lot this summer in those moves, in 2014 he worked with two point guards, this off-season he trained with a PF and it was all about post moves.

[Chinook]

Well, if his turnarounds look like in the first preseason game in Sacramento, I'm okay.

Kawhi was working a lot this summer in those moves, in 2014 he worked with two point guards, this off-season he trained with a PF and it was all about post moves.

Kobe has practiced his 16-foot turnaround his whole career, and he's a phenomenal shooter. But we all know how that has turned out.

[YGWHI]

Kobe has practiced his 16-foot turnaround his whole career, and he's a phenomenal shooter. But we all know how that has turned out.

652318890593095680

Again, I'm not worried. His turnaround/fadeaways look good, he isn't an inefficient player...

[dabom]

Kobe tore his Achilles.

[Chinook]

Kobe tore his Achilles.

Well yeah, I don't mean that. I mean how much of a chucker he ended up being. People forget that Kobe can or at least could shoot very well. But he shot-selection is horrible.

[apalisoc_9]

Yeah, and those aren't particularly good plays to call. It's one thing to iso on a mismatch. But why should the Spurs stop running their offense for Leonard to iso on decent defenders?

Because they're transitioning to to a team that relies on both Star power and Ball movement. You're going to have a healthy does of ISO relying on Star Production. What kind of offense are you going to run? The talent is changing in this team. It's starting to move towards to kawhi and now LMA. You build your offense around your best players. You're completely ignoring the fact that spurs used to run their offense based on a healthy does of Parker and Ginobili. That's rarely going to happen. They're base offense is now is going to start different.



I'm saying that even in that video he's taking bad shots.

He took 1 non-open contested Shots. That was a bad shot. Every darn Player that you're going to rely on to Put up Star numbers is going to have 2 or 3 bad shots a game. It's like you completely forgot how star players play. Sorry, You're never going to have a perfect player. Every System is going to have it's pros and cons..Relying on a 2014 spurs system might get you good shots, but it's isn't a consistently proven as relying on Star Production. I don't see why this team can't rely on both...relying on star Production will generate a couple of bad shots a game.


I'm not. You guys are the ones saying he should take iso midranges because they're his best shots. I'm saying those shots should be minimized in an offense. There are plenty of ways to get a player good shots, even midrange shots, that don't involve isolation plays. Even when the offense was completely Parker-centric the team had a lot of different ways of getting him the ball in motion and ready to shoot.


I never said it was his best shot. We're arguing that it should be added to the game because the team needs a healthy dose of offensive strategies. I realize it's not as beautiful as it looks, but believe it or not the game slows down in the Post-Season and sometimes if a piece in the offense isn't working the offense deteriorates and you'd need a slow one on one post play. Tim Duncan said the same shit in the LA series about Kawhi Post ups.. The team knows there will be situations where it's going to go dry and you need someone to bail you out. You're not going to learn by not taking those shots. Pop calls them what? 2 or 3 times a game? Seems perfectly reasonable to me.


Yes, the point of this balance is to find a way to get the offense to work to the "star". The offense is supposed to help him get open, and he's supposed to help others get going. Iso plays don't do that. It's good for a player to know how to score one-on-one, but by no means should an offense just stop for Kawhi, especially when he shares a lineup with four guys who all have higher career-scoring games than him. They all need the ball. Kawhi might be a 20 ppg scorer, but LMA will be at least that high. Danny will be 13-15 (or at least should because of his efficiency). Parker isn't dropping down to single-figures, and I expect Tim to still get double-digits as well. The Sours are not going to be the Kawhi show on offense for a whole season. Too much talent for that.


Again your completely trying to paint all Kawhi shots as ISO shots. Kawhi attacking on transition and the Midrange does provide open spacing. The only play that completely relies on him to make a play is his ISO post...That's probably not even 5% of his total points in a game. You're trying your best to paint majority of shots as you would call it "disgusting" when he probably takes 1 or 2 in a game of those. In comparison A guy like Aldridge who shots those jumpers at a much lower clip takes those shots significantly.

No 3 and D player will ever average 15 a game. I can't remember a player that's completely reliant on his 3 ball without much dribble that averaged 15ppg..specially not on a team like the spurs. In comparison, An offense like the Hawks that relies more on Korver to hit threes than Danny to hit threes on a spurs system to open up perimeter and lane spacing averaged a WHOOPING 12PPG... And that's without a player of Kawhi and Aldridge caliber on the team. If you think he's going to average 15, you're delusional.



Yes, you do. You grow up by learning your boundaries. The best players figure out what they do well and emphasize it. Then you have players like Melo and Kobe who never learn. That's what you'll end up getting if you don't realize that bad shots are a big deal.

Kawhi Needs to learn to tilt his shooting more to 10-16 shots and out of motion or dribble. I don't personally like post midrnage shots either, but they need him to consistently practice that for play situations when the offense is just flat out dry.

[spurraider21]

Well yeah, I don't mean that. I mean how much of a chucker he ended up being. People forget that Kobe can or at least could shoot very well. But he shot-selection is horrible.
In all fairness, if Kawhi's offensive game became as good as kobe's were in a really good place. He'd be an all timer

[apalisoc_9]

Kobe has practiced his 16-foot turnaround his whole career, and he's a phenomenal shooter. But we all know how that has turned out.

Those turnaround is part of his game. You're really trying your best to kill his improvements here. Pop wants him to shoot it in post up situations.

Your trying to compare his current game and make it look like it's similar to old hag kobe taking turn around jumpers.

[SpursIndonesia]

Who the hell would make a video just for that?

Anyway, yeah, there are a TON of poor shots in that video. Baseline fadeaways off cross court dribbles with 15 seconds left on the shot clock? Disgusting. Face-up jumpers with multiple teammates open beyond the arc? Yeah, not good. And these are his highlights. His shot-selection does suck.

What he did that I really liked in that vid is that he attacked mismatches. He used his speed against big guys and overpowered smalls. His highlights were almost exclusively in these situations, which is what you want. It also implies that he has less success against defenders his own size, which is to be expected. It's that diet of shots that he needs to cut back on, though, as well as early clock two-pointers.

It's really cool that Kawhi has the talent to make these plays work as much as they do. But that doesn't make those plays good for the offense at all.



Just because he doesn't have a better shot doesn't mean the TEAM doesn't have a better one. That's why Kawhi can't just jack up midrange shots all day. They're bad for a team, and if they're the best he can do, he needs to shoot less until that changes. Obviously things are different when he goes into big-head mode. But that's true of ever player.

Your basketball takes are always enjoyable & insightful, really appreciate it. Please keep it up and don't let the short bus crew distracting you. :tu

[apalisoc_9]

Your basketball takes are always enjoyable & insightful, really appreciate it. Please keep it up and don't let the short bus crew distracting you. :tu

If you can't even come up with your own argument. GTFO of this thread.

[K...]

If you can't even come up with your own argument. GTFO of this thread.

This is a dabom thread. The bar is looooooooooow for content

[K...]

Anyway, consensus, Kawhi iso is ok?

Seems like a few holdouts. I'm not one. Leonard won't have to win games on O, just when his match up is favourable. Otherwise he shots focus on defense and make open shots.

[dabom]

Kawhi needs more ISOs
because porker can't make jumpshits. Lmao

[SquawkinHawkBigCock]

dabom getting shat on per par :lmao

[dabom]

I bet you got an ivy league degree too. Lmao

[FkLA]

Damn, I don't think I've ever seen Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) sound so clueless. He's usually a solid poster.

-Kawhi post-ups are mostly non-mismatches? He can bully most SFs in the post. Those that he can't bully are usually too slow to keep up with him. Bron is the only guys that holds the combination of speed and power that Kawhi does.
-The Spurs ran plays to free up Rique for shots? Probably because Rique was never able to effortlessly get his midrange shots off. I'm sure if he ever was Pop would've had no problem letting him. Just another reason why even prime Rique was never a true superstar.
-The Spurs are in danger of going away from their offense to iso Kawhi? lol no obviously it'll be a mix, the system is too good to only rely on isos.

Thank god Pop recognizes just how dominant Kawhi can be on post-ups. :tu

[apalisoc_9]

Damn, I don't think I've ever seen Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) sound so clueless. He's usually a solid poster.

-Kawhi post-ups are mostly non-mismatches? He can bully most SFs in the post. Those that he can't bully are usually too slow to keep up with him. Bron is the only guys that holds the combination of speed and power that Kawhi does.
-The Spurs ran plays to free up Rique for shots? Probably because Rique was never able to effortlessly get his midrange shots off. I'm sure if he ever was Pop would've had no problem letting him. Just another reason why even prime Rique was never a true superstar.
-The Spurs are going away from their offense to iso Kawhi? lol no obviously it'll be a mix, the system is too good to only rely on isos.

Thank god Pop recognizes just how dominant Kawhi can be on post-ups. :tu

He knows what he's talking about, but he's so confused on why exactly the offense is run the way it is. I mean it's like he completely forget the last two months of the season last year. Kawhi Posting up and being the focal point of the offense still generated a ton of open looks for the spurs. Kawhi played of the system and the system played of Kawhi..it was perfect.

I already mentioned that I am not a big fan of post ups in the high post myself, but repetitive experience is needed to get those feel for situation in the playoffs were the offense xan go stale. He's completely ignoring this long term factor and instead focusing on a singular game basis.

[tholdren]

Damn, I don't think I've ever seen Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557) sound so clueless. He's usually a solid poster.

-Kawhi post-ups are mostly non-mismatches? He can bully most SFs in the post. Those that he can't bully are usually too slow to keep up with him. Bron is the only guys that holds the combination of speed and power that Kawhi does.
-The Spurs ran plays to free up Rique for shots? Probably because Rique was never able to effortlessly get his midrange shots off. I'm sure if he ever was Pop would've had no problem letting him. Just another reason why even prime Rique was never a true superstar.
-The Spurs are in danger of going away from their offense to iso Kawhi? lol no obviously it'll be a mix, the system is too good to only rely on isos.

Thank god Pop recognizes just how dominant Kawhi can be on post-ups. :tu

I agree. But Chinook is so set on using stats incorrectly to try and prove something. He's been in douche mode lately

[Chinook]

Because they're transitioning to to a team that relies on both Star power and Ball movement. You're going to have a healthy does of ISO relying on Star Production. What kind of offense are you going to run? The talent is changing in this team. It's starting to move towards to kawhi and now LMA. You build your offense around your best players. You're completely ignoring the fact that spurs used to run their offense based on a healthy does of Parker and Ginobili. That's rarely going to happen. They're base offense is now is going to start different.

As Harlem has said, the idea of running an offense through a small-forward is incredibly dubious. They don't fit a fulcrum dynamic well. Lebron is pretty much the only one who's been able to do it recently, and he's a freak of nature. Some like Melo, KD and George had the talent but couldn't get out of their own ways. And offense of wings in the post is clunky and antiquated, and if Kawhi weren't a really good post player, I'd want it cut out almost entirely. But he is a good post player, and he's elite when he has good shot-selection there. So if a Kawhi post-up is a great shot, it makes sense for the Spurs' offense to make that shot for him. There are plenty of ways to give Kawhi catches eight feel from the basket after a seal rather than 16-20 feet from the basket against a set defense.


He took 1 non-open contested Shots. That was a bad shot. Every darn Player that you're going to rely on to Put up Star numbers is going to have 2 or 3 bad shots a game. It's like you completely forgot how star players play. Sorry, You're never going to have a perfect player. Every System is going to have it's pros and cons..Relying on a 2014 spurs system might get you good shots, but it's isn't a consistently proven as relying on Star Production. I don't see why this team can't rely on both...relying on star Production will generate a couple of bad shots a game.

Well, I think you have a flat view on what star production looks like. Many players want and covet systems that give them good looks. The Heat ran plenty of sets that put Lebron in good position to score on his man. Kerr's system turned Steph into an MVP. The idea shouldn't be to make a compromise between Kawhi's (but mainly LMA's) individual offensive talent and team needs. It should be to make a synergistic model where the ball is in Kawhi's hands with options on how to attack the defense. Parker was so integrated into the Spurs' system that I'm not sure he can survive being unplugged from it. Kawhi needs to have that kind of symbiosis if he's going to be the next offensive star for the team.


I never said it was his best shot. We're arguing that it should be added to the game because the team needs a healthy dose of offensive strategies. I realize it's not as beautiful as it looks, but believe it or not the game slows down in the Post-Season and sometimes if a piece in the offense isn't working the offense deteriorates and you'd need a slow one on one post play. Tim Duncan said the same shit in the LA series about Kawhi Post ups.. The team knows there will be situations where it's going to go dry and you need someone to bail you out. You're not going to learn by not taking those shots. Pop calls them what? 2 or 3 times a game? Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Two to three a game is fine, I agree. And yes, I agree on the value of knowing how to do it.


Again your completely trying to paint all Kawhi shots as ISO shots.

I'm absolutely not. If I thought that, I wouldn't advocate him being a big part of the offense at all. The idea is to refine his game, to have him make good decisions with the ball. Like if Kawhi is 15 feet from the basket backing down his man, and he has Tim flashing in the paint or Danny open behind the arc, he has to learn that those shots are almost certainly better that whatever he's going to do with the ball. It's a process. I'm not going to fault a kid for trying new things. But I'm also not going to laud him for a 7-16 performance. I wouldn't laud LMA for it either. If you get 16 shots and use 23 possessions, you better get 20 points out of it.

As far as Green goes, I don't think he's getting, 15 ppg. It would even be high for him to get 13. But he did average 14.7 pp36 last season and averages 14.1 pp36 for his career. If he gets the playing time he deserves, he has a chance. And so long as he's not forcing things, Danny is about as efficient as it gets. You want him to get his touches as much as anybody, because they are great for the offense, especially for Leonard. The bigger threat Danny is, the less likely Kawhi is the consistently draw the best wing defender.

[apalisoc_9]

As Harlem has said, the idea of running an offense through a small-forward is incredibly dubious. They don't fit a fulcrum dynamic well. Lebron is pretty much the only one who's been able to do it recently, and he's a freak of nature. Some like Melo, KD and George had the talent but couldn't get out of their own ways. And offense of wings in the post is clunky and antiquated, and if Kawhi weren't a really good post player, I'd want it cut out almost entirely. But he is a good post player, and he's elite when he has good shot-selection there. So if a Kawhi post-up is a great shot, it makes sense for the Spurs' offense to make that shot for him. There are plenty of ways to give Kawhi catches eight feel from the basket after a seal rather than 16-20 feet from the basket against a set defense.

These teams run their SF oriented offense with Point Forward ball handling. Majority of these players play the point forward position, they're basically running a Star system. When Lebron and Geroge played off the ball their their team dominated, but it's hard to consistently dominate that way when your PG's are terrible ball handlers. Thankfully Parker is one of the better handlers in the league provided he's not trying to play 2013 Parker. Kawhi doesn't need to change the system to fit his game. We already know he's willing to play off the ball. The spurs are trying to do something different here..They want to see if they can consistently recreate a dominant offense that Miami and to a lesser extent Indiana played with Geroge and Lebron playing off ball situations. They want the the perfect balance here.

Kawhi and the Spurs hasn't shown any signs of relying on an Point forward reliant offense. Sure, Leonard does run the PnP and PnR every now and then but that's just a because he's going to have the ball a good amount of time. It doesn't mean he's going to play the way Geroge and Lebron does. The spurs aren't trying to run the same offense here.




Well, I think you have a flat view on what star production looks like. Many players want and covet systems that give them good looks. The Heat ran plenty of sets that put Lebron in good position to score on his man. Kerr's system turned Steph into an MVP. The idea shouldn't be to make a compromise between Kawhi's (but mainly LMA's) individual offensive talent and team needs. It should be to make a synergistic model where the ball is in Kawhi's hands with options on how to attack the defense. Parker was so integrated into the Spurs' system that I'm not sure he can survive being unplugged from it. Kawhi needs to have that kind of symbiosis if he's going to be the next offensive star for the team.

I 100% agree on this..But his has nothing to do with your "bogus" remarks of how "disgusting" his shots were. I already addressed why those shots happen.


I'm absolutely not. If I thought that, I wouldn't advocate him being a big part of the offense at all. The idea is to refine his game, to have him make good decisions with the ball. Like if Kawhi is 15 feet from the basket backing down his man, and he has Tim flashing in the paint or Danny open behind the arc, he has to learn that those shots are almost certainly better that whatever he's going to do with the ball. It's a process. I'm not going to fault a kid for trying new things. But I'm also not going to laud him for a 7-16 performance. I wouldn't laud LMA for it either. You get 16 shots and use 23 possessions, you better get 20 points out of it.

I agree with this 100%. Again, I made that post because you made a terrible remark about kawhi overall shot selection. I've already said that it happens because he has the ball on his hands and because he's trying to gain game time experience. He's also going to take shots from the high post just to diversify his selection. The key is for him to use that sparringly, only to a point where the defense is honest and find the points in 10-16 range.

We're trying to argue against your idea that the way leoanrd plays offense will kill the other side of team offense. That's far from the truth..We already have a good sample size for this late in the season last year. You consistently trying to paint a Leoanrd led offense as equal to an offense that's completely reliant on "star" points..when that's so far from the truth.

[dabom]

Chinook

POP: "We're going to put Leonard in the post more and more, so he's got to learn what his go-to moves are, what he feels comfortable with and the type of defenders that are going to come after him. Just like they came after Timmy early in his career, they'll go after Kawhi. They're not going to let him go one-on-one down there. He's got to figure out how to adjust, how to take advantage of that, and basically learn how to be a quarterback. That's what he's doing," said Popovich.Popovich anticipates that Leonard will see a lot of double teams in the post which will force him to have to make quick decisions and find the open man. Leonard has not played with the ball in his hands very much so far in his four year career but Popovich wants that to happen more as he continues to become "the guy" for the Spurs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rL-Hkt_7nl8

Kawhi is going to post more knowing he is going to get doubled almost every single time.

He is going to shoot more jumpers.

He is going to play more point-forward position.

Kawhi is going to ISO more this year. People need to understand this is a long time coming.

[dabom]

Almost missed Chip in the background. :bobo

[dabom]

Look at the title of the video. Emphasis on "MORE". :downspin:

[Seventyniner]

Unassisted shots aren't that bad when you have a guy who can hit those jumpers

False. The whole reason I posted that image, and the whole reason for the article that contained it, is that unassisted shots ARE that bad. An unassisted layup has the same FG% as an assisted jumper from the free throw line.

I understand that no team will ever eliminate unassisted shots from their arsenal, but it needs to be minimized. There is a huge difference between Kobe (or Kawhi) taking a contested turnaround jumper and a well executed pick-and-pop, even from the same spot on the floor.

[daslicer]

Noticed Danny Green in the background of the Kawhi post up practice clip talking about Lamar Odom.

[Chinook]

These teams run their SF oriented offense with Point Forward ball handling. Majority of these players play the point forward position, they're basically running a Star system. When Lebron and Geroge played off the ball their their team dominated, but it's hard to consistently dominate that way when your PG's are terrible ball handlers. Thankfully Parker is one of the better handlers in the league provided he's not trying to play 2013 Parker. Kawhi doesn't need to change the system to fit his game. We already know he's willing to play off the ball. The spurs are trying to do something different here..They want to see if they can consistently recreate a dominant offense that Miami and to a lesser extent Indiana played with Geroge and Lebron playing off ball situations. They want the the perfect balance here.

Ray Allen is probably the only wing who could be the best threat on his team but still play off the ball. Maybe Korver, but I wouldn't consider him a paradigm. It's not easy at all to get a wing to be your best scorer without him essentially becoming either your PG or PF. And what Kawhi is doing now is certainly not merely thriving off the ball. He's getting the ball and shooting pull-ups, fadeaways and leaners. Those aren't good for an offense long-term. That's why it's good that the Spurs are going to be LMA-centric for the next couple years. Kawhi will get time to develop he needs.


I 100% agree on this..But his has nothing to do with your "bogus" remarks of how "disgusting" his shots were. I already addressed why those shots happen.

Those shots are disgusting. By no means did the Spurs need him to take those. You may assume he's going to have the carry the Spurs, but he probably won't even have to break 19ppg for the team to be an elite offense. They need him to be good, but they're not going to need him to carry them.


I agree with this 100%. Again, I made that post because you made a terrible remark about kawhi overall shot selection. I've already said that it happens because he has the ball on his hands and because he's trying to gain game time experience.

That doesn't negate the fact that those shots are bad and that they shouldn't be in the offense. He might need reps to develop better shot-selection, but until that's developed, it's bad and can be noted as such. A beginning fiddler is going to struggle through a lot of bad attempts to learn to play Firedance. And though those attempts are necessary for the fiddler to figure out how to play the song correctly, they're still bad and no one will confuse them for good playthroughs. Kawhi shot-selection is bad until it gets better. You agree with that:


The key is for him to use that sparringly, only to a point where the defense is honest and find the points in 10-16 range.

If he carries this same shot-selection quality the rest of his career, he won't be an efficient offensive player. We're all hoping and assuming it's going to improve, so why are you trying to give me flack for saying so?


That's far from the truth..We already have a good sample size for this late in the season last year.

Kawhi went supernova (1.07 points per possession) for like two months. While I hope as much as anyone that that is the way Kawhi's just going to be from now on, it takes that type of run to justify that shot selection. Leonard whipping out .87ppp games isn't going to cut it. Chuckers like DeRozan (.95ppp for his career) and Gay (.93 ppg) do better than that. If Kawhi just splits the difference between his high and his most recent and ends up around .97ppp (comparable to SAC Gay), it's really nothing to get excited about. And before you act like Kawhi's post-All Star Break production last year was well beyond Gay's ability, Rudy was at 1.02ppg during that same span despite playing on a horrible team by that time with no ability to space the floor to give him room.

So we have to see where Leonard goes with it. So long as he and LMA work together and with the rest of the offense, it should work out. But right now, Kawhi's offense isn't much different than that of other jump-shooting wings. It should get better with time. It has to.

[apalisoc_9]

Ray Allen is probably the only wing who could be the best threat on his team but still play off the ball. Maybe Korver, but I wouldn't consider him a paradigm. It's not easy at all to get a wing to be your best scorer without him essentially becoming either your PG or PF. And what Kawhi is doing now is certainly not merely thriving off the ball. He's getting the ball and shooting pull-ups, fadeaways and leaners. Those aren't good for an offense long-term. That's why it's good that the Spurs are going to be LMA-centric for the next couple years. Kawhi will get time to develop he needs.

A LMA centric offense is just that..Pull-ups, fadewayas, leaners and post ups. Kawhi basically plays the same way but has the added transition game to supplement his offense and is a much better shooter to boot. You're not doing yourself any favor in this argument against Pull-ups, fadewayas and leaners if your Alternative takes most of his shots the same way. Ray Allen is a different wing player, he's utilized differently. He's not a good comparison to how a Kawhi off the ball player would look like. A good comparison sample is when Lebron-PG-Durant plays the off ball situation. They're pretty dominant as off ball player relying on quick decisions and attacks.

The difference being is that Kawhi is playing for a team that can consistently play that way.

I have a huge sample size to prove my point, You don't...


Those shots are disgusting. By no means did the Spurs need him to take those. You may assume he's going to have the carry the Spurs, but he probably won't even have to break 19ppg for the team to be an elite offense. They need him to be good, but they're not going to need him to carry them.


You have consistently dodged my answer to this. He's going to be shooting a healthy amount of shots. He's going to end up taking a few bad shots. Again your making it look like majority of his bad shots are terrible shots when in reality in the video you quoted he took one contested shot and in the Hawks pre-season game he took 1 terrible contested shots. There isn't a perfect team or an offensive system out there. There isn't a perfect game out there either. You're going to have to pick your poison in many situations. Do you let him Improve as a player ( the spurs need him to be an offensive threat) or do you not? Sure, you might get one widen open look but are the spurs going to be consistently dominant with a Kawhi leonard with lesser offensive role? Hell No...Are the spurs going to dominante by relying on a new guy that basically takes the same kind of shots but worse %..hell no...Do this team have enough slashers to replicate 2014? Not even close.

I have a bigger sample size on how this team would play if they tried replicating 2014. They're going to be atrocious...



That doesn't negate the fact that those shots are bad and that they shouldn't be in the offense. He might need reps to develop better shot-selection, but until that's developed, it's bad and can be noted as such. A beginning fiddler is going to struggle through a lot of bad attempts to learn to play Firedance. And though those attempts are necessary for the fiddler to figure out how to play the song correctly, they're still bad and no one will confuse them for good playthroughs. Kawhi shot-selection is bad until it gets better. You agree with that:

No, I don't agree with that. Kawhi took some bad shots, very few of them..That's going to happen with how they're playing them. Every darn player who will have the ball on his hands will make the same mistake once or twice a game. You're obsessed with Perfection and have a fairly unrealistic expectation of offensive flow and ball movment...The only thing I agree with is him taking more 10-16 possessions, but that doesn't mean he should abondon his other games...This goes back to how often he takes bad shots in a game, not a lot tbh.




If he carries this same shot-selection quality the rest of his career, he won't be an efficient offensive player. We're all hoping and assuming it's going to improve, so why are you trying to give me flack for saying so?

Because you're using a Terribele Pre-season Sample size to make your argument when a bigger more reliable sample size is available. Don't compare kawhi pre Post all-star or pre 2014 or Pre-season to what kawhi should be as a player because none of these samples are any indication of how the spurs will play moving forward nor is it any indication of Kawhi's shot selection. Go make me a Terrible Shot Selection video of Kawhi taking 2 or 3 bad shots a game Post-allstar break....you won't be able to because you can't.


Kawhi went supernova (1.07 points per possession) for like two months. While I hope as much as anyone that that is the way Kawhi's just going to be from now on, it takes that type of run to justify that shot selection.

This answers your question. It took a great run for Kawhi to convince the office he's good enough as a player. Another Poor attempt at kawhi's shot selection...Every player that's going to have that kind of role with have 1 or two bad shots a game. Again, show me all these terrible selection you speak off in that span. You're just making shit up right now.


So we have to see where Leonard goes with it. So long as he and LMA work together and with the rest of the offense, it should work out. But right now, Kawhi's offense isn't much different than that of other jump-shooting wings.

It will take for Aldridge to adjust. He was the one of the highest used offensive player in the league last year and is quite a diva and overly sensitive with touches as evident with his previous interview after acquisition.

[Chinook]

A LMA centric offense is just that..Pull-ups, fadewayas, leaners and post ups. Kawhi basically plays the same way but has the added transition game to supplement his offense and is a much better shooter to boot. You're not doing yourself any favor in this argument against Pull-ups, fadewayas and leaners if your Alternative takes most of his shots the same way.

Posting up bigs is a lot better for an offense than posting up guards. It's easier to space the floor with three smalls and a big than it is with two and two. It's also much better in transition defense to have three smalls along the perimeter. It's better for offensive rebounding, as it probably takes the defending big out of rebounding position. In a world where a 6-11 guy big and a 6-7 small have the same offensive game and efficiency, I'll take the big anytime.


He's not a good comparison to how a Kawhi off the ball player would look like. A good comparison sample is when Lebron-PG-Durant plays the off ball situation.

None of those players have the same physical profile of Leonard. They're all significantly bigger. The latter two are post players (with PG playing PF and having a mismatch every time he's on the court due to his position change), while the former is, or was if he can't get back to form, the best shooter this side of Steph Curry. To say you want/expect Kawhi to have a game similar to KD's is absurd and insulting to Durant (not that I care about his feelings mind you). And even with all that, Durant has been in a terribly structured offense his whole career. Do you really want the Spurs to play anything close to Scott Brook's offense?


I have a huge sample size to prove my point, You don't...

Two months against four years is hardly an elite sample size.


No, I don't agree with that. Kawhi took some bad shots, very few of them..

First, we're talking about the highlight video of his Hawks performance. So even in your mind, only five of his makes were good shots. Who knows how many of his 10 misses were bad?


You're obsessed with Perfection and have a fairly unrealistic expectation of offensive flow and ball movment...

No, I have a realistic expectation of Leonard. You're trying to take his best stretch ever and project it as his norm. Danny was a 15pp36 scorer in that same span with a ppp of 1.16, which is just legendary, but you have no problem admitting that is unsustainable. Again, if that Kawhi is the norm, I have no problem with the team handing him the keys. But he's not going to be that good on average. And when you look at his numbers with that in mind, you see that he's not a significant offensive upgrade to other midrange wings if he keeps his game this way.


Because you're using a Terribele Pre-season Sample size to make your argument when a bigger more reliable sample size is available.

This thread is specifically about the Hawks game. I'm harping on it because people are trying to assert that was a good offensive game for Kawhi. It wasn't. That better not even be an average game for him. He needs to be a lot better than he was last game. Has he been better in the past? Yes. Will he be better in the future? God, I hope so. But how much better is the first question and what will it take for him to get there is the second.


Go make me a Terrible Shot Selection video of Kawhi taking 2 or 3 bad shots a game Post-allstar break....you won't be able to because you can't.

You're right. I have no video-editing software nor access to all of his post-All Star games. And I certainly don't have the desire to sift through every game to look at bad Kawhi shots. Could probably dig up a couple in every highlight vid, though.


It will take for Aldridge to adjust. He was the one of the highest used offensive player in the league last year and is quite a diva and overly sensitive with touches as evident with his previous interview after acquisition.

Yeah, so he's going to be given a chance to jack up just as many shots as Kawhi until he figures it out, and then it's going to be his offense. Pop's been giving them both a chance to spread their wings. I don't think he's going to let Kawhi chuck while keeping LMA on training wheels.

[dabom]

Kawhi chuck. Lmao. The smear campaign by Chinook. Kawhi averages 60%TS.

[apalisoc_9]

Posting up bigs is a lot better for an offense than posting up guards. It's easier to space the floor with three smalls and a big than it is with two and two. It's also much better in transition defense to have three smalls along the perimeter. It's better for offensive rebounding, as it probably takes the defending big out of rebounding position. In a world where a 6-11 guy big and a 6-7 small have the same offensive game and efficiency, I'll take the big anytime.

Your terrible mistake is simplifying kawhi's game to a post up player. They also don't have the same efficiency at the range where they take most of their post up shots. Kawhi is seating at 48% and Aldridge is seating at 38% at those fadaways and leaners that you are so disgusted with.. Where do you get your stats that they're just as efficient? They hardly run Kawhi post ISO. Majority of his shots are still out of Motion and and quick decisions out of motion.




None of those players have the same physical profile of Leonard. They're all significantly bigger. The latter two are post players (with PG playing PF and having a mismatch every time he's on the court due to his position change), while the former is, or was if he can't get back to form, the best shooter this side of Steph Curry. To say you want/expect Kawhi to have a game similar to KD's is absurd and insulting to Durant (not that I care about his feelings mind you). And even with all that, Durant has been in a terribly structured offense his whole career. Do you really want the Spurs to play anything close to Scott Brook's offense?

Where did I say the spurs should play a similar system? I've mentioned that Kawhi playing in a spurs uniform means he will get better shots at motion and from off ball movements. You're going to utilize him in a smiliar sense that it's off ball, but Kawhi doesn't need to do this the same way KD and the others do. Kawhi has a luxury of a better team. Kawhi can be utilized in a somewhat similar manner but no way does that mean they will be taking the same shots.



Two months against four years is hardly an elite sample size.

Except relying on that 4 years is bogus because he wasn't a focal point of the offense. The only reliable sample would be post all-star break Kawhi and this pre-season kawhi. I'm relying on the former whereas it looks like you're relying on the latter. You're trying to project his game using his previous role. I'm projecting his game based on the games he played as the focal point of the offense.


First, we're talking about the highlight video of his Hawks performance. So even in your mind, only five of his makes were good shots. Who knows how many of his 10 misses were bad?

Where the hell did i say this? I said he took one contested shot. You're making shit up. so the only good shots are the shots he make? you're being ridiculous now.



No, I have a realistic expectation of Leonard. You're trying to take his best stretch ever and project it as his norm. Danny was a 15pp36 scorer in that same span with a ppp of 1.16, which is just legendary, but you have no problem admitting that is unsustainable. Again, if that Kawhi is the norm, I have no problem with the team handing him the keys. But he's not going to be that good on average. And when you look at his numbers with that in mind, you see that he's not a significant offensive upgrade to other midrange wings if he keeps his game this way.

Now I have to go back again to my previous point that you missed again for some reason. Relying on cumulative team production isn't as sustainable as Star Production..This is common sense and basketball 101.


This thread is specifically about the Hawks game. I'm harping on it because people are trying to assert that was a good offensive game for Kawhi. It wasn't. That better not even be an average game for him. He needs to be a lot better than he was last game. Has he been better in the past? Yes. Will he be better in the future? God, I hope so. But how much better is the first question and what will it take for him to get there is the second.

I never said it was a good offensive game. He missed shots, it happens. You're freaking out over a Pre-season Hawks game while the Kid has played terrific basketball as a focal point late in the season when games actually matter. :lol You're just making terrible projections right now based of unreliable samples.


Yeah, so he's going to be given a chance to jack up just as many shots as Kawhi until he figures it out, and then it's going to be his offense. Pop's been giving them both a chance to spread their wings. I don't think he's going to let Kawhi chuck while keeping LMA on training wheels.

You're also making terrible assumptions. Kawhi barely jacks up shots..Aside from you and some irrelevant morons, kawhi doesn't have a reputation of a chucker and it's for a reason. You're trying to make it look like a kawhi led offense is chucking offense. That's hilarious.

[Chinook]

Kawhi chuck. Lmao. The smear campaign by Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557). Kawhi averages 60%TS.

Yes, he's very efficient when he has good shot selection. This idea that I think Kawhi is a bad player or even a bad scorer is misguided. But the offense you guys were cheering in this past Hawks game was bad. That's not the worst thing in the world, as everyone shot poorly. But I've been looking over the highlights of Leonard's awesome stretch last year, and I see hardly any iso plays. He had unassisted shots for sure, but most of the highlighted ones were transition buckets and actually quite a few PnR plays. His Clippers games definitely did have a lot of iso ball, but I don't think most of his games had his trying to beat his guys (especially non-mismatches) one on one.

[Chinook]

Your terrible mistake is simplifying kawhi's game to a post up player.

No, and at this point it's getting a little disingenuous. We're not talking about the majority of Kawhi's game. We're talking about the Hawks game and how that offensive gameplan looks. As I said to dabom, Kawhi didn't seem to iso much at all in the post-All Star highlight vids I watched. He got most of his unassisted buckets in transition and some PnR. Most of the rest were post-ups on mismatches. Those are good shots, and ones I hope are a part of any Leonard-centric offense. The issue isn't that Kawhi doesn't take a lot of good shots. It's that he takes some iso jumpers that are NOT good shots. And those need to go the way of the dinosaur. He barely took any of those in the highlight vids from last year's regular season. So it seems pretty clear to me that Leonard can be the focus of the offense while leaving the jumpers he was taking the Hawks games on the practice court.


Where did I say the spurs should play a similar system?


A good comparison sample is when Lebron-PG-Durant plays the off ball situation.

He's not KD and shouldn't even try to play in the offense KD has played in. That's both because he and Durant have different strengths and because Durant has been in bad offense so far.


Where the hell did i say this? I said he took one contested shot.

The video only showed his makes. He only had six makes. So if he had one bad shot in that vid, then it was one of six.


Relying on cumulative team production isn't as sustainable as Star Production..This is common sense and basketball 101.

Leonard was a star for two months. Green was a three-and-D player who scored 15.8 pp36 over that same two-month span. You're trying to question Green's consistency, chaulking it up to "team production", when Danny was still at 14.3 pp36 while Kawhi was dealing with his consistency issues. Green is a career 14.1 pp36 guy who's actually had a year where he averaged even more than 15.8 pp36. Which is seems to more sustainable? This isn't Kawhi vs Green in any way. I'm just pointing out that Danny a much larger sample of being a fourth-option scorer and you seem to have no issue dismissing the notion he can keep it up.


You're just making terrible projections right now based of unreliable samples.

I'm not making projections. I'm evaluating the past. Leonard's offense in the Hawks game was bad. That's not what anyone should be happy about. That's not even how he played last year. IF that's how he played in the regular season, IF people are satisfied with that last game, they'll get a poor scorer. I simply said he has to be better than the Hawks game, both in results and in shot-selection. It shouldn't even be debatable.


You're trying to make it look like a kawhi led offense is chucking offense.

A Kawhiso offense IS a chucking offense. An offense that integrates Kawhi and that doesn't force feed him the ball is not one. The question is if Pop is going to have Kawhi play like he did in the regular season last year or have him play like did against the Clippers. The regular-season offense was a lot of attacking close-outs, running in transition, cutting to the basket and running simple PnRs. The post-season offense was a lot of post-ups and isos. It was great when he had the mismatch, and it was horrible sometimes when he didn't. The Hawks game was closer to the Clippers series, and that's why it should be panned. That level of explosion isn't sustainable if he's going to just go against the best defender every night.

[apalisoc_9]

No, and at this point it's getting a little disingenuous. We're not talking about the majority of Kawhi's game. We're talking about the Hawks game and how that offensive gameplan looks. As I said to dabom, Kawhi didn't seem to iso much at all in the post-All Star highlight vids I watched. He got most of his unassisted buckets in transition and some PnR. Most of the rest were post-ups on mismatches. Those are good shots, and ones I hope are a part of any Leonard-centric offense. The issue isn't that Kawhi doesn't take a lot of good shots. It's that he takes some iso jumpers that are NOT good shots. And those need to go the way of the dinosaur. He barely took any of those in the highlight vids from last year's regular season. So it seems pretty clear to me that Leonard can be the focus of the offense while leaving the jumpers he was taking the Hawks games on the practice court.

I agree that he needs to attack as opposed to settling for 16<jumpers, even an idiot who barely watches basketball would agree. But it isn't even a problem because he took those shots at a minimum post all star break. The Hawks game had a couple bricks, but nowhere was that game close to kawhiso game..The few times he actually posted up, he scored. But you're never going to be to abandon those ISO shots...He took them minimally post all-star-break..Only to keep the defense honest. So what's your problem with Kawhi led offense again?




He's not KD and shouldn't even try to play in the offense KD has played in. That's both because he and Durant have different strengths and because Durant has been in bad offense so far.

Why would he do this? The spurs aren't the thunder.



The video only showed his makes. He only had six makes. So if he had one bad shot in that vid, then it was one of six.

I rewatched that game. He took one really bad shot and 1 shot that you could argue for. If you star player is going to take only one or two bad shots a game..Holy hell you have a winner.




Leonard was a star for two months. Green was a three-and-D player who scored 15.8 pp36 over that same two-month span. You're trying to question Green's consistency, chaulking it up to "team production", when Danny was still at 14.3 pp36 while Kawhi was dealing with his consistency issues. Green is a career 14.1 pp36 guy who's actually had a year where he averaged even more than 15.8 pp36. Which is seems to more sustainable? This isn't Kawhi vs Green in any way. I'm just pointing out that Danny a much larger sample of being a fourth-option scorer and you seem to have no issue dismissing the notion he can keep it up.

This isn't about Green vs Kawhi though. Stop using Per36. You didn't use per36 on your initial post.

Ofcourse I have no problem with that. Even the 15 year old girl next door would be able to tell points of role players are not consistent...and everyone and their mother know Green is a streak shooter




I'm not making projections. I'm evaluating the past. Leonard's offense in the Hawks game was bad. That's not what anyone should be happy about. That's not even how he played last year. IF that's how he played in the regular season, IF people are satisfied with that last game, they'll get a poor scorer. I simply said he has to be better than the Hawks game, both in results and in shot-selection. It shouldn't even be debatable.

He missed shots in the Hawks game and Pop tried him out as Point forward. What makes you think me, FKLA, dabom or other posters think that's how the team is going to play. We're arguing for the midrange game and he that's part of kawhi's game. You've been arguing against a Kawhi Led offense using a Hawks game sample..:lol


A Kawhiso offense IS a chucking offense.

There isn't a kawhiso offense. The clipper series offense is a function of Tony Parker's shitty play and pop's refusal to run with Mills. Kawhi didn't actually have to play ISO when Mills was on the floor but Pop had no option when Parker was running the point.

[Mnky]

Someone said sf centered teams arnt efficient, citing LeBron as the only other effective player. So it is efficient, depending on the player.

They also cited PG, Melo, and KD as alternatives that didn't work out.

All three of those guys led their team to conference finals, 2 multiple times plus a finals showing.

Bad takes tbh.

Kawhi is already effective and will become more so once he gets playing time as a focal point. He has shown to shine in any area you give him time to adapt too. His 3pt shot, his mid range, his defense, his rebounding, his fast break finishing, and his post up. Constantly improved every opportunity he was given.

Nothing suggests he won't continue this trend when given the next opportunity.

[kobyz]

Kawhi = Terrence Jones very much, very similar in talent, only one is more marketable and play for Spurs that maximize his game and hide weaknesses...

[YGWHI]

Kawhi = Terrence Jones very much, very similar in talent, only one is more marketable and play for Spurs that maximize his game and hide weaknesses...

Poor guy :lmao

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi is overrated, Kawhi = Terrence Jones very much, very similar in talent, only one is more marketable and play for Spurs that maximize his game and hide weaknesses...

http://www.ultraimg.com/images/nicholas-cage-reverse-laugh-this-is-not-good-6bb61e3b7bce0931da574d19d1d82c88-2613.gif

[YGWHI]

For those who don't believe he can continue to improve on offense..."He will never be..blah blah blah" "Just focus on defense, shoot less blah blah"

More KawhiLights.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqsc3VWA31U&amp;feature=youtu.be

[spurraider21]

kawhi's jumper looked silky smooth

[spursistan]

Kawhi = Terrence Jones very much, very similar in talent, only one is more marketable and play for Spurs that maximize his game and hide weaknesses...
https://media.giphy.com/media/n8LOaQyDyiEhi/giphy.gif

[spurraider21]

awesome. the drive and dish to west was beautiful


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSJ45yYbmc

[apalisoc_9]

awesome. the drive and dish to west was beautiful


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHSJ45yYbmc

That post up at 1:23....Would have been a fadeway jumper with Splitter on the floor.

[spurraider21]

That post up at 1:23....Would have been a fadeway jumper with Splitter on the floor.
yeah that was a really smooth finish... and the very next highlight was a post-up that led to an assist for an Aldridge jumper, going back to what you said. against atlanta he woulda forced that shot up imo

[dabom]

The Spurs are paying LMA $20 Million knowing he's an offensive player. You DON'T want him to be the leading scorer? And that doesn't mention that 20 LMA points should be better for the offense than 20 Kawhi points.


Kawhi has a way better TS% than LMA. By far! Those 20 kawhi points are better than those 20 lma points.


Kawhi was averaging like 18ppg to end the last season on limited minutes. Don't give me this bull he can't average 20 a game going into his prime


There will be an interesting dynamic between our two best players not named Duncan.

Kawhi is an absolute elite defensive player who is working hard to become a good offensive player.

LaMarcus is an elite offensive player who (hopefully) will work hard to become a good defensive player. Initial signs are positive.

I would be surprised if Kawhi scores more ppg than LaMarcus this season. But that does not mean LaMarcus is the better player.


Totally agree Bill. I give the edge to KAwhi in the scoring department because he is accustomed to the system and is going to get more minutes.


Who the hell would make a video just for that?

Anyway, yeah, there are a TON of poor shots in that video. Baseline fadeaways off cross court dribbles with 15 seconds left on the shot clock? Disgusting. Face-up jumpers with multiple teammates open beyond the arc? Yeah, not good. And these are his highlights. His shot-selection does suck.

What he did that I really liked in that vid is that he attacked mismatches. He used his speed against big guys and overpowered smalls. His highlights were almost exclusively in these situations, which is what you want. It also implies that he has less success against defenders his own size, which is to be expected. It's that diet of shots that he needs to cut back on, though, as well as early clock two-pointers.

It's really cool that Kawhi has the talent to make these plays work as much as they do. But that doesn't make those plays good for the offense at all.



Just because he doesn't have a better shot doesn't mean the TEAM doesn't have a better one. That's why Kawhi can't just jack up midrange shots all day. They're bad for a team, and if they're the best he can do, he needs to shoot less until that changes. Obviously things are different when he goes into big-head mode. But that's true of ever player.


Kawhi chuck. Lmao. The smear campaign by Chinook (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=37557). Kawhi averages 60%TS.


No, and at this point it's getting a little disingenuous. We're not talking about the majority of Kawhi's game. We're talking about the Hawks game and how that offensive gameplan looks. As I said to dabom, Kawhi didn't seem to iso much at all in the post-All Star highlight vids I watched. He got most of his unassisted buckets in transition and some PnR. Most of the rest were post-ups on mismatches. Those are good shots, and ones I hope are a part of any Leonard-centric offense. The issue isn't that Kawhi doesn't take a lot of good shots. It's that he takes some iso jumpers that are NOT good shots. And those need to go the way of the dinosaur. He barely took any of those in the highlight vids from last year's regular season. So it seems pretty clear to me that Leonard can be the focus of the offense while leaving the jumpers he was taking the Hawks games on the practice court.





He's not KD and shouldn't even try to play in the offense KD has played in. That's both because he and Durant have different strengths and because Durant has been in bad offense so far.



The video only showed his makes. He only had six makes. So if he had one bad shot in that vid, then it was one of six.



Leonard was a star for two months. Green was a three-and-D player who scored 15.8 pp36 over that same two-month span. You're trying to question Green's consistency, chaulking it up to "team production", when Danny was still at 14.3 pp36 while Kawhi was dealing with his consistency issues. Green is a career 14.1 pp36 guy who's actually had a year where he averaged even more than 15.8 pp36. Which is seems to more sustainable? This isn't Kawhi vs Green in any way. I'm just pointing out that Danny a much larger sample of being a fourth-option scorer and you seem to have no issue dismissing the notion he can keep it up.



I'm not making projections. I'm evaluating the past. Leonard's offense in the Hawks game was bad. That's not what anyone should be happy about. That's not even how he played last year. IF that's how he played in the regular season, IF people are satisfied with that last game, they'll get a poor scorer. I simply said he has to be better than the Hawks game, both in results and in shot-selection. It shouldn't even be debatable.



A Kawhiso offense IS a chucking offense. An offense that integrates Kawhi and that doesn't force feed him the ball is not one. The question is if Pop is going to have Kawhi play like he did in the regular season last year or have him play like did against the Clippers. The regular-season offense was a lot of attacking close-outs, running in transition, cutting to the basket and running simple PnRs. The post-season offense was a lot of post-ups and isos. It was great when he had the mismatch, and it was horrible sometimes when he didn't. The Hawks game was closer to the Clippers series, and that's why it should be panned. That level of explosion isn't sustainable if he's going to just go against the best defender every night.



The usual suspects with the goods and Chinook with the bads this thread. :lol