Anderson's defense

[Wildcat67]

He actually hasn't been a liability at all out there, even go as far to say a he's been above average. His ability to use his length as a cushion and intelligence to position himself well compensates well for his lack of foot speed (which I feel is overblown due to his nickname).

Anyone else get this impression as well? Obviously against LeBron or some of the more athletic SF in the league he may struggle some but playing against bench guys shouldn't be a huge issue.

[exstatic]

He actually hasn't been a liability at all out there, even go as far to say a he's been above average. His ability to use his length as a cushion and intelligence to position himself well compensates well for his lack of foot speed (which I feel is overblown due to his nickname).

Anyone else get this impression as well? Obviously against LeBron or some of the more athletic SF in the league he may struggle some but playing against bench guys shouldn't be a huge issue.

They're teaching him good positional defense. On one play, he got a steal against Houston, and their announcer said that he kicked the ball, or might have. He didn't. He's just an absolute condor with that 7'3" wingspan. He will steal the ball or block your shot if you're not careful and mindful of his arms. He's not like Kawhi in that he's going to just take it from you, but he's great at playing the passing lanes, and picking off passes that people think they can throw over the top.

[random21]

One example I saw of improved defense was staying in front of Harden, forcing a tough shot, but of course Harden made it. The Houston commentators even said that Kyle played good defense that possession, but Harden made a tough shot...

[kobyz]

Still will kill you on defense, doesn't matter if he can came up with some flashy steal once in awhile...

[exstatic]

Still will kill you on defense, doesn't matter if he can came up with some flashy steal once in awhile...

Not reading. Not watching games to see improvement.

[BD24]

Still will kill you on defense, doesn't matter if he can came up with some flashy steal once in awhile...
Still haven't killed yourself yet I see. Go do it already pussy.

[Fireball]

He will not be a stopper, but he has shown me enough to not be a total liability on the defensive end ...

[ceperez]

You can't teach length.... he's got a lot of length that works well in the kind of defense that the Spurs play (that is, not jumping against a jump shooter)

[KL2]

I never knew Anderson was part Chinese (found it right now):
http://zagsblog.com/articles/like-jeremy-lin-ucla-bound-anderson-has-asian-heritage/

But yeah, his defense has looked good. Shifting his feet much faster and is much stronger than last year, he can actually stay in front of his man. I'd read he was one of the worst defenders in the D league, however that may have been due to playing as the #1 option. Anderson developing into a quality role player would be huge for the Spurs, the passing on the 2nd unit is crazy good.

[DrSteffo]

I think he is below average still. Very slow and sometimes lost.

[exstatic]

He will not be a stopper, but he has shown me enough to not be a total liability on the defensive end ...
That's all he needs to be as a bench player.

[silverblackfan]

He has improved a lot this last year at moving his feet and using those long arms to block the vision of the opponent. I am pretty encouraged with his skills and increasing BBIQ. He is still pretty darn young too. As long as his defense improves and he is using his brain, I am sure he will be fine in the team defense.

[Brian Windhorst]

Actually liked him on Harden tbh. He's too slow to get faked out by all of Harden's pumpfakes, and long enough to make it hard to shoot over him, and recover if Harden drives to the basket.

[ceperez]

Actually liked him on Harden tbh. He's too slow to get faked out by all of Harden's pumpfakes, and long enough to make it hard to shoot over him, and recover if Harden drives to the basket.

Antidote to Harden is length.... either put Kawhi or Anderson on him. Anderson will do very well with help defense. Considering you have Duncan, Aldridge and Marjanovic to help, he has the luxury of funneling the opponent into the bigs.

I think West and Diaw are a bit too small to bother most players in help defense. In fact, I would like to see West as the 11th or 12th man.

[Das Texan]

Kyle Anderson in the one preseason game I saw this year, looks like a vastly improved player than he was last year.

That's only a positive for the long term futures of the Spurs.

[Mr. Body]

He's like a different player on defense so far.

[SAGirl]

Agree on his smart use of his length, and size. He's also in better conditioning than last year. He was caught standing straight legged at times last year. This year he is properly in a defensive stance at all times on defense. His size allows him to help on D and recover to his man and contest. He doesn't blow by shooters like Danny. He doesn't bite on fakes. He doesn't loose track of his man off the ball. He boxes out his man properly. He's gain muscle and is stronger. Strong guys that like to post up can still back him down some, but he's sturdy enough to at least allow a helper to come in and help, instead of just being a straight up push (like Daye).

He's able to fight through screens, anticipates them and uses smart feet placement to go over them, without fouling the shooter on the recovery. His size is apparent when you are aware he's able to get back into the play relatively fast. To be honest, the young man is going to be a plus in games. Like they say, you can't teach size, and he's got that. He's been larger/longer than all bench players and some starters he's been up against. He looked larger than Ariza for example.

We are right to be excited. He's going to help, not hinder that bench. The lineup with him and Boban is an Xfactor TBH.
The stars in the league will give him trouble of course, but those guys will give trouble to anyone and only a DPOY like Kawhi can deal with them, and they will still get theirs, so overall we are fine.

[Cklbmk]

I've been saying this since he was drafted. People just didn't believe due to his lack of speed. But his wing span and positioning make him a devasting defender on any level.

I still fully believe he is Manus replacement

[ceperez]

Agree on his smart use of his length, and size. He's also in better conditioning than last year. He was caught standing straight legged at times last year. This year he is properly in a defensive stance at all times on defense. His size allows him to help on D and recover to his man and contest. He doesn't blow by shooters like Danny. He doesn't bite on fakes. He doesn't loose track of his man off the ball. He boxes out his man properly. He's gain muscle and is stronger. Strong guys that like to post up can still back him down some, but he's sturdy enough to at least allow a helper to come in and help, instead of just being a straight up push (like Daye).

He's able to fight through screens, anticipates them and uses smart feet placement to go over them, without fouling the shooter on the recovery. His size is apparent when you are aware he's able to get back into the play relatively fast. To be honest, the young man is going to be a plus in games. Like they say, you can't teach size, and he's got that. He's been larger/longer than all bench players and some starters he's been up against. He looked larger than Ariza for example.

We are right to be excited. He's going to help, not hinder that bench. The lineup with him and Boban is an Xfactor TBH.
The stars in the league will give him trouble of course, but those guys will give trouble to anyone and only a DPOY like Kawhi can deal with them, and they will still get theirs, so overall we are fine.

A lineup with Boban, Diaw, Anderson, Ginobili, Mills is oozing with X-factor. A matchup nightmare and if they start passes well it can be devastating. Even the short time against the Rockets with Diaw and Anderson, both could have posted up their small ball. Diaw, Anderson and Boban are nightmares covering a post up single coverage. They are also are tall enough to see passing angles that get guys like Mills and Ginobili easy shots.

[spurs10]

Thought Anderson looked great in the Houston game. He is going to get a lot minutes with the second unit. He and Boban look comfortable together as well.

[spurs10]

A lineup with Boban, Diaw, Anderson, Ginobili, Mills is oozing with X-factor. A matchup nightmare and if they start passes well it can be devastating. Even the short time against the Rockets with Diaw and Anderson, both could have posted up their small ball. Diaw, Anderson and Boban are nightmares covering a post up single coverage. They are also are tall enough to see passing angles that get guys like Mills and Ginobili easy shots. I like this. I figure West and Boban will be interchangeable depending how small Pop wants to go. If small ain't working enter Boban the Giant. Really was happy to see how well he did against Houston, scrubs or not.

[BD24]

I'm really excited to see the bench unit this year, especially Boban and Anderson. When the bench mob is clicking they should run a train on other teams second units.

[spurs10]

I'm really excited to see the bench unit this year, especially Boban and Anderson. When the bench mob is clicking they should run a train on other teams second units.
:toast Yep!

[-21-]

Worst case scenario, he's still better than Beli.

[SpursBig3s]

Agree on his smart use of his length, and size. He's also in better conditioning than last year. He was caught standing straight legged at times last year. This year he is properly in a defensive stance at all times on defense. His size allows him to help on D and recover to his man and contest. He doesn't blow by shooters like Danny. He doesn't bite on fakes. He doesn't loose track of his man off the ball. He boxes out his man properly. He's gain muscle and is stronger. Strong guys that like to post up can still back him down some, but he's sturdy enough to at least allow a helper to come in and help, instead of just being a straight up push (like Daye).

He's able to fight through screens, anticipates them and uses smart feet placement to go over them, without fouling the shooter on the recovery. His size is apparent when you are aware he's able to get back into the play relatively fast. To be honest, the young man is going to be a plus in games. Like they say, you can't teach size, and he's got that. He's been larger/longer than all bench players and some starters he's been up against. He looked larger than Ariza for example.

We are right to be excited. He's going to help, not hinder that bench. The lineup with him and Boban is an Xfactor TBH.
The stars in the league will give him trouble of course, but those guys will give trouble to anyone and only a DPOY like Kawhi can deal with them, and they will still get theirs, so overall we are fine.


great post. I agree

[aal04]

Ive never seen a player sag off as much as him. He will defend smaller plays by staying beside them and not infront of them and he can be very effective from that position.

He will have trouble with those taller perimeter players, but then again, so does everyone else ala Durant.

The only question mark for me is if it panics the team and forces unnecessary help defense. It may look a bit chaotic out there with him.

[Fireball]

That's all he needs to be as a bench player.

that was I wanted to say :lol

[All Mighty Janitor]

He's been fouling quite a bit in the preseason. He's is gonna have to clean that up. If Anderson and West keep fouling like they have, opponents will be getting into the bonus early. That's really going to hurt the spurs in 2nd and 4th quarters, especially against Harden, Westbrook, And Durant.

[sasaint]

They're teaching him good positional defense. On one play, he got a steal against Houston, and their announcer said that he kicked the ball, or might have. He didn't. He's just an absolute condor with that 7'3" wingspan. He will steal the ball or block your shot if you're not careful and mindful of his arms. He's not like Kawhi in that he's going to just take it from you, but he's great at playing the passing lanes, and picking off passes that people think they can throw over the top.

Yep, I pointed this play out in another thread. It was impressive, like a SS getting his glove down to snag a hot grounder. His length is a much greater asset than many realize. With his BB IQ and playing on the Spurs, he will be an asset not a liability in team defense. And he will only improve with coaching, experience and physical development. He is a kid! His body is nowhere close to what it will become. He will be a fine rotation player this year and only improve in years to come.

[Chinook]

He doesn't blow by shooters like Danny.

I largely agreed with your post. I've said for a while that Anderson will be a plus defender if he is able to play within the team scope. He simply doesn't have to guard difficult guys very often, and he can get the steals, blocks and rebounds he needs to make up for whatever speed he doesn't have.

However, I just wanted to touch on the part of your post I quoted above. I see a lot of posts talking about Green "falling for fakes" or "getting blown by" against shooters, especially those beyond the three-point line. It's been a topic on this board for a few years. It's a misconception that jumping at three-point shooters is bad defense. Danny and the other player who jump are not trying to block the shot. When the shooter pulls the ball back down and moves, he's doing EXACTLY what Green is trying to get him to do. Danny is trading an assisted three attempt for an off-dribble two or unassisted three. It's a very good trade in terms of expected points allowed.

And it doesn't actually lead to more fouls, as Danny is great at jumping away from the shooter. He takes himself out of the play in both a good and bad way. When you close out but try to stay in position, you often end up touching the player, either with the contesting hand or by moving your body under their feet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jggZwD5DiY

Five of those shots were after closeouts. Three were soft (guy not jumping at the attempt), and two were hard (doing what Danny almost always). Of course, undisciplined defenders might foul by sticking their hands out while flying by. But those guys are trying to block the shot. For the most part, Green is just trying to disrupt the shooter's timing and force him to move off the line. Obviously, the benefit of selling out to prevent the three depends on the shooter. No one should by diving at Tony Allen. But Danny puts up elite defensive numbers because he's good defending. Don't let Pop's tirades convince you otherwise.

[SAGirl]

I largely agreed with your post. I've said for a while that Anderson will be a plus defender if he is able to play within the team scope. He simply doesn't have to guard difficult guys very often, and he can get the steals, blocks and rebounds he needs to make up for whatever speed he doesn't have.

However, I just wanted to touch on the part of your post I quoted above. I see a lot of posts talking about Green "falling for fakes" or "getting blown by" against shooters, especially those beyond the three-point line. It's been a topic on this board for a few years. It's a misconception that jumping at three-point shooters is bad defense. Danny and the other player who jump are not trying to block the shot. When the shooter pulls the ball back down and moves, he's doing EXACTLY what Green is trying to get him to do. Danny is trading an assisted three attempt for an off-dribble two or unassisted three. It's a very good trade in terms of expected points allowed.

And it doesn't actually lead to more fouls, as Danny is great at jumping away from the shooter. He takes himself out of the play in both a good and bad way. When you close out but try to stay in position, you often end up touching the player, either with the contesting hand or by moving your body under their feet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jggZwD5DiY

Five of those shots were after closeouts. Three were soft (guy not jumping at the attempt), and two were hard (doing what Danny almost always). Of course, undisciplined defenders might foul by sticking their hands out while flying by. But those guys are trying to block the shot. For the most part, Green is just trying to disrupt the shooter's timing and force him to move off the line. Obviously, the benefit of selling out to prevent the three depends on the shooter. No one should by diving at Tony Allen. But Danny puts up elite defensive numbers because he's good defending. Don't let Pop's tirades convince you otherwise.
Kyle closes on shooters w/o getting out of the play. That is way harder to do than what Danny does. Kawhi is actually a master at closing out in control and its probably a factor of body control plus his size . Not having to cover that much ground at to speed like Danny does. I love Danny in many other respects but him closing out shooters and getting out of the play is one of the things he is not a master of. He probably is running at too fast a speed to close out and come to a stop w/o fouling the shooter.

[Chinook]

Kyle closes on shooters w/o getting out of the play. That is way harder to do than what Danny does. Kawhi is actually a master at closing out in control and its probably a factor of body control plus his size . Not having to cover that much ground at to speed like Danny does. I love Danny in many other respects but him closing out shooters and getting out of the play is one of the things he is not a master of. He probably is running at too fast a speed to close out and come to a stop w/o fouling the shooter.

The point is you WANT to get out of the play. You want the guy to take the inefficient shot you're giving him as opposed to jack up a semi-contested three in rhythm. If it's a good shooter, you want them to not shoot at all costs. Now, if it's a bad shooter, you don't want to give them a driving lane. On those, you just want to get in position slowly and encourage the shot. Green's not diving a Josh Smith spotting up.

I complied the numbers concerning this during the 2014 WCF. This is what I had to say (thread was http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233435):


Three-Point Defense



This was a subplot I paid attention to for the WCF. I stopped posting the chart after Game One, but I kept track of the numbers.



Series










Result
Three
Two
Foul
Miss
Pass
Total



Hard
10
3
0
26
4
43



Soft
4
4
6
7
1
22



Stunt
1
0
0
0
0
1



None
4
0
0
2
0
6



(In case anyone is wondering, the Spurs jumped on all but two hard-closes while jumping on three soft-closes.)


As you can see, the Spurs are a hard-closing team, and they do so because it is a very successful strategy. There are a lot more intricacies to this than I am listing, obviously, and during the summer, I intend to get more into various strategies. We’ll see how that goes. For now, this was a fun little exercise.

Most Spurs do what Danny does, and it leads to better results even if it looks like it's bad. When you're trying to run at full speed and stop on a dime with a hand in the shooter's face, a LOT of bad things can happen. The most benign of these is that the shooter will just shoot anyway, in rhythm. But it can lead to driving lanes almost as easily since the closer has to stop their momentum and can't really contest a drive without bumping into his man. It forces more awkward rotations since the closer is still technically in the play. It leads to tons of fouls, since the closer is usually somewhat out of control but also moving toward the shooter, making him a relatively easy target for baiting.

[SAGirl]

The point is you WANT to get out of the play. You want the guy to take the inefficient shot you're giving him as opposed to jack up a semi-contested three in rhythm. If it's a good shooter, you want them to not shoot at all costs. Now, if it's a bad shooter, you don't want to give them a driving lane. On those, you just want to get in position slowly and encourage the shot. Green's not diving a Josh Smith spotting up.

I complied the numbers concerning this during the 2014 WCF. This is what I had to say (thread was http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=233435):



Most Spurs do what Danny does, and it leads to better results even if it looks like it's bad. When you're trying to run at full speed and stop on a dime with a hand in the shooter's face, a LOT of bad things can happen. The most benign of these is that the shooter will just shoot anyway, in rhythm. But it can lead to driving lanes almost as easily since the closer has to stop their momentum and can't really contest a drive without bumping into his man. It forces more awkward rotations since the closer is still technically in the play. It leads to tons of fouls, since the closer is usually somewhat out of control but also moving toward the shooter, making him a relatively easy target for baiting.
We'll just have to disagree. YOu are not going to convince me that closing out and getting out of the play is better. Sometimes the shooter will fake you a la Marco and just take an uncontested shot or just drive at top speed b4 Timmy is able to come out to get into the play himself. In fact, never mind that, Tim is not going to help since it leaves his man open for an alley oop, or a pass for an easy shot at the rim. It is tough to run at a guy and close out w/o getting out of the play. That Kyle has been able to do that has surprised me a whole lot and is a plus TBH.

[ElNono]

:lol this discussion again?

It's not hard: run to the chest, put your hand up. If you jump, only straight up. That's it. Any other "closeout" is just not proper, can lead to 4 point plays, etc. If you want the opposing player to shoot, then you just give him room.

All the Spurs want is the shot to be contested, which means, having a hand up on the shooter. No hero blocks, etc.

[Chinook]

:lol this discussion again?

It's not hard: run to the chest, put your hand up. If you jump, only straight up. That's it. Any other "closeout" is just not proper, can lead to 4 point plays, etc. If you want the opposing player to shoot, then you just give him room.

All the Spurs want is the shot to be contested, which means, having a hand up on the shooter. No hero blocks, etc.

They don't want the shot at all. Like when they double, they aren't desperately trying to block or contest the offensive player. They are trying to discourage any shot at all.

[SAGirl]

:lol this discussion again?

It's not hard: run to the chest, put your hand up. If you jump, only straight up. That's it. Any other "closeout" is just not proper, can lead to 4 point plays, etc. If you want the opposing player to shoot, then you just give him room.

All the Spurs want is the shot to be contested, which means, having a hand up on the shooter. No hero blocks, etc.
I didn't know this discussion had a history here since I am new and I am not trying to reignite it. IMO closing out the shooter while staying in front of the play, has been a plus of Anderson. He plays in control - his famous deliberate speed. Its surprised me that he's able to help and recover without getting out of the play. Its a factor of his body control. Its not something that you would have expected him to be good at and he is. That is a plus. Not everyone can do that, and its probably the fact taht they run at top speed and are unable to stop. That is a strength of Kawhi's honestly.


Either way, Chinook not going to convince me that we want Anderson to blow by players instead of what he's doing right now.

[sasaint]

Thanks to SAGirl and Chinook for very good discussion. As a former (read: long-ago) basketball player, this strategy is a more difficult concepts or me to grasp than pulling up for 3s on fast breaks. Both are antithetical to tenets of coaching back in my day and require serious paradigm shifts to grasp. It took a couple of years for me to grasp the defensive strategy and stop yelling at my TV for Danny to "stay on your feet." :lol Chinook, the chart is great for illustrating the reason for the change of strategy. Thanks again folks for some very good discussion.

[ElNono]

They don't want the shot at all. Like when they double, they aren't desperately trying to block or contest the offensive player. They are trying to discourage any shot at all.

You can't control what the opposing player does. You can only try to lure them into doing something uncomfortable. You can't prevent Curry or KD from shooting, you want them to feel like they're taking a high difficulty shot, and thus make them think there's a better option by passing. That's what contesting a shot is. Statistically, contested shots are much harder to hit. You want to play those odds.

[Chinook]

We'll just have to disagree. YOu are not going to convince me that closing out and getting out of the play is better. Sometimes the shooter will fake you a la Marco and just take an uncontested shot or just drive at top speed b4 Timmy is able to come out to get into the play himself. In fact, never mind that, Tim is not going to help since it leaves his man open for an alley oop, or a pass for an easy shot at the rim. It is tough to run at a guy and close out w/o getting out of the play. That Kyle has been able to do that has surprised me a whole lot and is a plus TBH.

Marco is playing into people's hands when he does that. If he "pump-fakes", he's already lost. His man didn't want him to shoot that shot in the first place, so Marco is just playing into his hands. As Seventyniner pointed out in another thread, not all shots from the same spots are created equal. It's much easier to make any shot when it's assisted and in rhythm than it is to make it when you have to do anything else, whether than's dribble, drive or simply reset your motion. Are some players good enough to make a high percentage or resets? Yes. Are most? No.

As far as drives go, as I mentioned, that's not nearly exclusive to hard-closes. Any time you're running toward a player, you're out of position. The difference is, when you're hard closing, the defense already knows it's going to have to rotate. Duncan doesn't have to wait for Danny's man to start moving, since he knows Danny is going to leave that lane open.

I'm very confident that the numbers will support my stance if someone has compiled them for other samples, but obviously, I don't have them. We'll have to agree to disagree indeed. I think Anderson is doing what's best for him, but by no means would I want Danny doing the same.

[ElNono]

This discussion has a few lols from 2014 with Chinook... but it's all good, I think he really likes the way Danny closesouts on shots, even though it's really prone to fouling or pump-fakes...

It's hard for players to stop on a dime when the adrenaline is rushing, and so you see a lot of 4pt plays when hitting shooters these days... it's not just Danny... but he has heard it from Pop before about those flyby closeouts...

[ElNono]

I should add, what I like about Kyle is that he can give a little more room to the shooter, because of his amazing length. Players like Manu has to play guys tight and while Gino happens to be a guy that's very mindful of contesting every shot, his size can hurt him on fakes. I think Anderson has the youth and size to play that better.

[Chinook]

You can't control what the opposing player does. You can only try to lure them into doing something uncomfortable. You can't prevent Curry or KD from shooting, you want them to feel like they're taking a high difficulty shot, and thus make them think there's a better option by passing. That's what contesting a shot is. Statistically, contested shots are much harder to hit. You want to play those odds.

Yes, but a hand in the face is for a knock-down shooter is not the same as a body in the face. That's why the Spurs don't just do that. Hard-closes aren't a means of making a shot harder; they're a threat to stop or delay a shot. As I said, it's like a double-team. You want the player to pass out of it. People acting like players pulling the ball down are "faking out" defenders is like saying that players who pass out of double-teams are outsmarting defenses. I feel like it's just a superficial analysis.

[Chinook]

This discussion has a few lols from 2014 with Chinook... but it's all good, I think he really likes the way Danny closesouts on shots, even though it's really prone to fouling or pump-fakes...

You act like almost everyone paying attention to the closeouts during that series didn't see my point. You yourself said that no matter how much evidence I showed you you'd never agree due to your Italian heritage or something. As the numbers in that series showed, NOBODY fouled on hard-closes. If you do it right, you're not anywhere near the shooter. It's really hard to draw a foul on a guy who's flying away from you, since you have to catch up to him. Now if a guy is undisciplined and leaves a hand out, then that's another story. Bad defenders are bad defenders no matter what strategy they use.

[sasaint]

I think Anderson is doing what's best for him, but by no means would I want Danny doing the same.

Whatever the technique, Kyle promises to be an effective defender in the Spurs team defense, and we know how effective Danny already is. I am pretty certain that I don't want Kyle trying to mimic Danny in his hard closes.

[ElNono]

You act like almost everyone paying attention to the closeouts during that series didn't see my point. You yourself said that no matter how much evidence I showed you you'd never agree due to your Italian heritage or something. As the numbers in that series showed, NOBODY fouled on hard-closes. If you do it right, you're not anywhere near the shooter. It's really hard to draw a foul on a guy who's flying away from you, since you have to catch up to him. Now if a guy is undisciplined and leaves a hand out, then that's another story. Bad defenders are bad defenders no matter what strategy they use.

The discussion really ended when Danny did one of your famed 'hard closeouts' on Ray Allen, bought the fake, and Allen nailed the 3 comfortably, followed by Pop chewing his ass about running to his chest. I can get you video or bump the thread, if you don't remember, tbh...

I've nothing against your theories, they're your opinion, that's fine. I think they're just wrong.

[SAGirl]

It's hard for players to stop on a dime when the adrenaline is rushing, and so you see a lot of 4pt plays when hitting shooters these days... it's not just Danny... but he has heard it from Pop before about those flyby closeouts...

This is probably factored into Chinook's argument. If you are not able to close out and stay on the play, then Pop just gameplans for you to get out of the play and try to play the man one way or another. It doesn't mean that its better thatn to simply close out and stay on the play if you can. Like I said, I have been surprised that Kyle has been able to do that and its a function of his body control. Kawhi is a master at that, and I remember reading an article when he was first gaining notoriety as a defender that remarked many aspects unique to him, like his length, hand size, ability to get back in plays from behind after being "picked" or blown by, etc. Kawhi is special bc of how many tools he has, and his unique instincts, but one thing that was mentioned was his body control, precisely how he is able to close out and contest without fouling, getting out of the play, biting on pump fakes etc.

Kyle is nowhere near Kawhi's level, but the length of his strides, his arms length and the fact he always plays in control allow him to help and recover, without getting out of most plays. Twice he fouled a guy in a play, and it wasn't even a function of closing out of control. He was careless. Most of the time, I have watched, he's surprised me, closing out on Marco in that SAC game for example without fouling him, going for his pump fakes or giving him a drive, and Marco got Danny, Ray and Simmons in that game to either foul him, or just simply wait for them to get out of the play giving him a drive and dish or some other option.

Needless to say, we will have up and down moments with Kyle this season, but he's been impressive.

[Chinook]

The discussion really ended when Danny did one of your famed 'hard closeouts' on Ray Allen, bought the fake, and Allen nailed the 3 comfortably, followed by Pop chewing his ass about running to his chest. I can get you video or bump the thread, if you don't remember, tbh...

Yes, I remember that. And he did nothing the dozens of times it worked. That Pop doesn't like the strategy does nothing to dilute its effectiveness. It just sort of makes Pop seem like he's out of touch.

[ElNono]

Yes, but a hand in the face is for a knock-down shooter is not the same as a body in the face. That's why the Spurs don't just do that. Hard-closes aren't a means of making a shot harder; they're a threat to stop or delay a shot. As I said, it's like a double-team. You want the player to pass out of it. People acting like players pulling the ball down are "faking out" defenders is like saying that players who pass out of double-teams are outsmarting defenses. I feel like it's just a superficial analysis.


Not sure what you're talking about here. Pop wants defenders close to good shooters, like every other pro basketball coach, so they can put a hand up and contest. That's it, there's no other secret. If he drives, he drives and you hope team defense helps out. That's the trade off against great players.

[ElNono]

Yes, I remember that. And he did nothing the dozens of times it worked. That Pop doesn't like the strategy does nothing to dilute its effectiveness. It just sort of makes Pop seem like he's out of touch.

It's basketball 101 and playing the odds. This is pro ball, if you want to take the ball away from a player, you double team.

[Chinook]

If he drives, he drives and you hope team defense helps out. That's the trade off against great players.

That's not unique to soft-closeouts. In the Thunder series, the difference in efficiency was almost 2:1. It wasn't even close as to whether the Spurs used a hard or soft strategy predominantly (again 2:1). And one was obviously more successful. It simply doesn't matter what Pop prefers.

[Chinook]

It's basketball 101 and playing the odds. This is pro ball, if you want to take the ball away from a player, you double team.

And if you want to prevent a shot, you hard-close. Those two ideas have the same logic.

[ElNono]

You close out and contest or you close out and give room. Depends if you want the guy to drive or shoot.

This is very basic stuff. If you want you break it down in further categories, then more power to you, but frankly, IMO, it's useless.

Pop is not wrong. You need to stay on your guy and on the play. If he hits the shot over your extended arm, you tip your hat and move on to the next play.

Your argument about the effectiveness of your theory and breakdowns is cool, I guess, I'd just like to see a league wide stat tracking that as opposed of your eyeball test. Frankly, a lot of this is covered in tendencies under scouting reports. Don't think for a second Ray Allen didn't know Danny loves to do the flyby close outs.

[ElNono]

:lol anyways, I don't think we'll ever agree on this stuff. That's alright, don't want to turn this into another long winded argument. We traveled that road before. :toast

[dabom]

Manu is losing every time he pump fakes? He wants you to jump for the 5vs4 . Come on Chinook you're better than this.

[dabom]

Stay on your feet so you can recover and track your man.

[dabom]

Sean and bill probably discuss it about twice a game on the proper close-out.

[ceds]

You close out and contest or you close out and give room. Depends if you want the guy to drive or shoot.

This is very basic stuff. If you want you break it down in further categories, then more power to you, but frankly, IMO, it's useless.

Pop is not wrong. You need to stay on your guy and on the play. If he hits the shot over your extended arm, you tip your hat and move on to the next play.

Your argument about the effectiveness of your theory and breakdowns is cool, I guess, I'd just like to see a league wide stat tracking that as opposed of your eyeball test. Frankly, a lot of this is covered in tendencies under scouting reports. Don't think for a second Ray Allen didn't know Danny loves to do the flyby close outs.

THIS

very simple stuff .

All close outs are "hard" or at full speed with the defender sprinting to the offensive player. The defender (in full sprint) aims to get as close to the players chest as possible with a hand up in time to contest the jumper whilst chopping his steps in the final moments to slow momentum in order to defend against the dribble drive (Bruce Bowen did this perfectly) . Occasionally you want the player to shoot in which case you close to give room to allow for the shot and protect against the drive.

At no point however do you want to take yourself out of the play thus allowing both the drive / shoot options.

Chinook, When Danny is running full speed and flys by the shooter on his close out he is not using a special defensive skill or tactic like you imply. This is a bad defensive habit that takes himself out of the play and goes against what all coaches teach.

[spurraider21]

nono and chinook talking about closeouts? is this 2013?

[SAGirl]

Marco is playing into people's hands when he does that. If he "pump-fakes", he's already lost. His man didn't want him to shoot that shot in the first place, so Marco is just playing into his hands. As Seventyniner (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=17327) pointed out in another thread, not all shots from the same spots are created equal. It's much easier to make any shot when it's assisted and in rhythm than it is to make it when you have to do anything else, whether than's dribble, drive or simply reset your motion. Are some players good enough to make a high percentage or resets? Yes. Are most? No.

As far as drives go, as I mentioned, that's not nearly exclusive to hard-closes. Any time you're running toward a player, you're out of position. The difference is, when you're hard closing, the defense already knows it's going to have to rotate. Duncan doesn't have to wait for Danny's man to start moving, since he knows Danny is going to leave that lane open.

I'm very confident that the numbers will support my stance if someone has compiled them for other samples, but obviously, I don't have them. We'll have to agree to disagree indeed. I think Anderson is doing what's best for him, but by no means would I want Danny doing the same.YO
You lot me a long time ago. I respect you trying to explain your point of view, but the pump fake is one of the best plays in BBall to get free. Its a tactic many offensive players use, and most guys who are out there to put points on the board, have a midrange shot, can pass in traffic, etc. Like I said, you won't convince me the blow by is better than closing out under control and staying in the play. Of course, if you are not good enough to close by under control, then by all means blow by, since its better than fouling, but it will never be better for me than closing out while staying within the play.

[SAGirl]

You close out and contest or you close out and give room. Depends if you want the guy to drive or shoot.

This is very basic stuff. If you want you break it down in further categories, then more power to you, but frankly, IMO, it's useless.

Pop is not wrong. You need to stay on your guy and on the play. If he hits the shot over your extended arm, you tip your hat and move on to the next play.

Your argument about the effectiveness of your theory and breakdowns is cool, I guess, I'd just like to see a league wide stat tracking that as opposed of your eyeball test. Frankly, a lot of this is covered in tendencies under scouting reports. Don't think for a second Ray Allen didn't know Danny loves to do the flyby close outs.


THIS

very simple stuff .

All close outs are "hard" or at full speed with the defender sprinting to the offensive player. You close to contest by aiming to get as close to the players chest with a hand up in time to contest the jumper whilst chopping your steps in the final moments to slow momentum so you can defend against the dribble drive (Bruce Bowen did this perfectly) . Occasionally you want the player to shoot in which case you close to give room to allow for the shot and protect against the drive.
??
At no point however do you want to take yourself out of the play thus allowing both the drive / shoot options.

Chinook, When Danny is running full speed and flys by the shooter on his close out he is not using a special defensive skill or tactic like you imply. This is a bad defensive habit that takes himself out of the play and goes against what all coaches teach.

Agree with you both. I don't think Pop will be advising Kyle to start closing out and blowing by guys getting out of the play. Its probably one of the things that still gets him upset about Danny's blow by's. I didn't know I was touching on an epic issue.

[apalisoc_9]

Marco is playing into people's hands when he does that. If he "pump-fakes", he's already lost. His man didn't want him to shoot that shot in the first place, so Marco is just playing into his hands. As Seventyniner pointed out in another thread, not all shots from the same spots are created equal. It's much easier to make any shot when it's assisted and in rhythm than it is to make it when you have to do anything else, whether than's dribble, drive or simply reset your motion. Are some players good enough to make a high percentage or resets? Yes. Are most? No.


This doesn't take into account the pressure of an incoming defender regardless if he's way far out or not. Shooters will almost and always try to find the best open shot with the least amount of pressure..Ask any shooter and they will tell you, they'd rather not see anyone running towards them.

I don't have the numbers myself, but i would assume since you're making this claim you'd back it up with numbers...right now, it's perfectly logical to think from a shooters stand point, if there is a risk of a good contest, you fake and shoot.

[apalisoc_9]

SAGirl

if the pumpfake is the best play to use to get free from ur defender, explain why it never worked for the pumpfake master malik rose?

I didn't read SA girls post, but the best shots are ALMOST always assisted. I was responding to the idea that everytime you pump and fake you're falling into the defenders hand. I disagree.

[kobyz]

What about his offense? Can we try him playing pg for us instead porker in the starting lineup? This way you hide him alongside two good defenders... And it also can do good for porker being a sixth man and let him hero ball against second units...

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

He actually hasn't been a liability at all out there, even go as far to say a he's been above average. His ability to use his length as a cushion and intelligence to position himself well compensates well for his lack of foot speed (which I feel is overblown due to his nickname).

Anyone else get this impression as well? Obviously against LeBron or some of the more athletic SF in the league he may struggle some but playing against bench guys shouldn't be a huge issue.

No surprise. Anderson is finally using his length to his advantage (7'3" wingspan). I notice how he NEVER let his arms down in the Rockets game. It reminded me of Bowen like defense (not saying he's Bowen at all) in how Bowen never dropped his hands while playing D, something Green still needs to learn at time.

I was impressed how he guarded Beverly quite a few times and didn't let him penetrate to the basket. His arm length gave him fits.

[Chinook]

This doesn't take into account the pressure of an incoming defender regardless if he's way far out or not. Shooters will almost and always try to find the best open shot with the least amount of pressure..Ask any shooter and they will tell you, they'd rather not see anyone running towards them.

I don't have the numbers myself, but i would assume since you're making this claim you'd back it up with numbers...right now, it's perfectly logical to think from a shooters stand point, if there is a risk of a good contest, you fake and shoot.

In the Thunder series, hard-closes allowed .837 points per possession, while soft-closes allowed 1.336. And before anyone tries to argue about sample size, the chi-square p-value for the stats was 0.004142488, meaning there's a less than a one-half-of-one-percent chance those numbers were accidental. We can argue about whether or not there was something special about that series that caused hard-closes to be super effective, but there's no question that they WERE super effective, Pop's opinion on them be damned.

I think you guys are missing the point when it comes to shooters. Holding the ball drops the expected field-goal percentage, regardless of defensive pressure. You all have no problem understanding this when Tim gets an elbow jumper and stares at the rim for a couple of seconds before shooting. We know it's a bad thing to hesitate. So I'm finding it hard to see why so many people think that resetting somehow doesn't make a worse shot. Basketball is a game of rhythm, and knocking a guy off his by forcing him to pump fake or dribble is akin to getting two hands in his face. Add in that hard-closes are much safer plays, and you get an understanding of why it's a superior strategy.

Even if guys were just as good at hitting shots after a reset or escape-dribble, it still affects expected points allowed. Marco goes from a contested three to an open long-two after a pump-fake and escape-dribble. He shot 46 percent on long-twos last season (.92ppp). By contrast, he shot 34 percent on threes with defenders within six feet of him (1.02ppp). I wouldn't consider this definitive, because not all of those long-twos were open and not all of those threes were really contested. But the idea is the same. And that doesn't factor in fouling and how soft-closes are more prone to that than hard closes.

The biggest misconception is that Danny is "falling" for the pump fake. He isn't. He's not trying to block the shot, which is why he's moving away from the man and doesn't have his hand in fouling position. Does Green have a history of falling for some fakes, yes. The 2014 Finals showed that. But the numbers on close-outs are striking, and in my opinion, they completely override this "obviously what Danny is doing is bad defense" attitude so many people have.

[wildbill2u]

I only saw the Rockets game, but it confirmed some thoughts about Anderson on defense. Because of his slowness, he's gonna get left behind on picks and that will leave a 3pt shooter pretty much alone outside the arc. He tries to catch up by lunging forward to the shooter in order to use his length to defend, but when he's coming from 6 to 10 feet away a good shooter isn't gonna be bothered by him too much because the length is being used more horizontally to close than vertically to block.

He also uses this technique when he plays off his man so far.

I fear that he may also get faked out a lot with that lunging technique. He may chase the guy off the line, but they can just drive by his outstretched body into the lane.

They will work with him for sure to establish a defensive posture that will pass muster at this level. We'll see.

[SAGirl]

I only saw the Rockets game, but it confirmed some thoughts about Anderson on defense. Because of his slowness, he's gonna get left behind on picks and that will leave a 3pt shooter pretty much alone outside the arc. He tries to catch up by lunging forward to the shooter in order to use his length to defend, but when he's coming from 6 to 10 feet away a good shooter isn't gonna be bothered by him too much because the length is being used more horizontally to close than vertically to block.

He also uses this technique when he plays off his man so far.

I fear that he may also get faked out a lot with that lunging technique. He may chase the guy off the line, but they can just drive by his outstretched body into the lane.

They will work with him for sure to establish a defensive posture that will pass muster at this level. We'll see.
He actually doesn't or hasn't so far bit on fakes, TBH. Not once have I seen that this preseason, but it is possible that in closing out he's not fast enough. I have seen him be mostly adequate, but its something to watch out for. He actually does a good job going under or over picks depending on what they are doing. In no way is he out of the play completely, he's either forcing a guy into the rim protector like he should, or he's going under a pick on a guy like Brewer for example. In comparison, guys that are very athletic like Simmons get caught on picks completely and taken out of plays and are often faked out, hit with backcuts and stuff like that and are out of position. Just proves defense is more than just athleticism.