The impossible dream...natural gas to gasoline cheaply may be real...

[CosmicCowboy]

There is some fascination research being done and a pilot plant is already being built. There is a very good chance the whole oil industry will be turned upside down in the next 5 years. If the current research to convert natural gas to ethylene cheaply using a catalyst proves out on a large scale it will be earth shattering to the oil industry. Instead of taking huge carbon molecules and breaking them down at the refinery to gasoline and other hydrocarbons they will take simple carbon elements from methane and build whatever product they want at a huge cost savings. We are talking the ability to produce/sell gasoline under a $1 a gallon and still have a huge profit under current feed stock prices. Natural gas will be the new king and Texas/Louisiana will be beautifully positioned with the gas infrastructure and refineries already in place.

[baseline bum]

There is some fascination research being done and a pilot plant is already being built. There is a very good chance the whole oil industry will be turned upside down in the next 5 years. If the current research to convert natural gas to ethylene cheaply using a catalyst proves out on a large scale it will be earth shattering to the oil industry. Instead of taking huge carbon molecules and breaking them down at the refinery to gasoline and other hydrocarbons they will take simple carbon elements from methane and build whatever product they want at a huge cost savings. We are talking the ability to produce/sell gasoline under a $1 a gallon and still have a huge profit under current feed stock prices. Natural gas will be the new king and Texas/Louisiana will be beautifully positioned with the gas infrastructure and refineries already in place.

What a savior that would be for Russia. Still, it would be nice to fuck Saudi Arabia raw.

[boutons_deux]

"whole oil industry will be turned upside down in the next 5 years."

it will come from one or more MAJOR battery breakthroughs, and/or fuel-cell breakthroughs, not from natgas to gasoline.

natgas to hydrogen for FCVs is much more attractive, since we seem to be stuck with natgas a few more years, peak natgas being about 5 years away, Red-Queening all the way.

Bosch ALONE is spending $500M on battery research and is finding real progress, as are many others.

70% of US oil is for transport. A big fat sitting duck for EVs and FCVs.

[DMX7]

We need battery progress. I want to only have to charge my iphone like once every two weeks.

Also, I won't buy a Tesla (or any electric car) until they get much better.

[CosmicCowboy]

$1 gas would kill EV's Boo unless they were heavily subsidized. Solar is great for fixed installations, not so great as a transportable energy source.

[CosmicCowboy]

What a savior that would be for Russia. Still, it would be nice to fuck Saudi Arabia raw.

This shit is real. There is already a pilot plant being built in La Porte (Texas). I'm probably gonna drop a bundle on stock when this company goes public this year or next.

[boutons_deux]

$1 gas would kill EV's Boo unless they were heavily subsidized. Solar is great for fixed installations, not so great as a transportable energy source.

One of the breakthroughs for batteries will be in price.

Then add in batteries in the home charged from solar and 100Ms of people going off-grid, and you have free fuel, totally pollution-free.

[baseline bum]

$1 gas would kill EV's Boo unless they were heavily subsidized. Solar is great for fixed installations, not so great as a transportable energy source.

Yeah I'm skeptical of battery powered cars, and who wants to have to charge their car for 6-8 hours? Of course solar is worthless for cars, you couldn't power cars with NASA grade solar panels at 1400 watt per square meter at solar noon in the summer. I wish we'd start using natural gas itself more though, but you'd have to fill up more often since it doesn't compress as well as gasoline. I hope this happens and kicks ethanol the fuck out, what a worthless fuel. I'm interested to see if hydrogen fuel cell can get some traction too.

[ElNono]

Yeah I'm skeptical of battery powered cars, and who wants to have to charge their car for 6-8 hours? Of course solar is worthless for cars, you couldn't power cars with NASA grade solar panels at 1400 watt per square meter at solar noon in the summer. I wish we'd start using natural gas itself more though, but you'd have to fill up more often since it doesn't compress as well as gasoline. I hope this happens and kicks ethanol the fuck out, what a worthless fuel. I'm interested to see if hydrogen fuel cell can get some traction too.

Besides pollution, you really can't match or beat the efficiency of an electric engine though. Charging is the least of the problems, you can make stations that simply replace the battery, that's an instant charge. That's why a leap in battery tech is likely going to change the face of many industries.

[ElNono]

I liked Hydrogen back then too, but hydrogen has it's own production problems and costs. You would need a massive transformation of the gas network to make it worth it.

As far as OP, it sounds cool, but I don't expect Big Oil not to fight it.

[Wild Cobra]

There is some fascination research being done and a pilot plant is already being built. There is a very good chance the whole oil industry will be turned upside down in the next 5 years. If the current research to convert natural gas to ethylene cheaply using a catalyst proves out on a large scale it will be earth shattering to the oil industry. Instead of taking huge carbon molecules and breaking them down at the refinery to gasoline and other hydrocarbons they will take simple carbon elements from methane and build whatever product they want at a huge cost savings. We are talking the ability to produce/sell gasoline under a $1 a gallon and still have a huge profit under current feed stock prices. Natural gas will be the new king and Texas/Louisiana will be beautifully positioned with the gas infrastructure and refineries already in place.

That would be awesome if it pans out.

Sometimes such things are hyped, to make stock prices artificially rise. Have any technical material on this?

[ElNono]

That would be awesome if it pans out.

Sometimes such things are hyped, to make stock prices artificially rise. Have any technical material on this?

Google 'Siluria'

[Wild Cobra]

OK, the process takes two methane molecules and one oxygen molecule and makes one ethylene molecule and two water molecules.

Where's the drought at? It also releases heat in the process, that might also be utilized somehow.

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/523146/chasing-the-dream-of-half-price-gasoline-from-natural-gas/

In the searching I did, nothing was found on the easy method of turning ethane to a liquid fuel.

I would be cautious in investing into this. No more than you can afford to loose, and they payoff can be large if its successful.

I'd call it a longshot investment, but what do I know?

[Wild Cobra]

Google 'Siluria'
Thanks.

Already found it.

The process doesn't give the higher carbon chains we need as a liquid fuel. Anything below hexane has to be pressurized. The only process I found top make gasoline type fuels from it didn't look very viable, but I only found a process from the 30's.

[Wild Cobra]

I liked Hydrogen back then too, but hydrogen has it's own production problems and costs. You would need a massive transformation of the gas network to make it worth it.

As far as OP, it sounds cool, but I don't expect Big Oil not to fight it.

If they thought it was viable, you can bet they would get their claws into it.

[boutons_deux]

you myopic pessimists are whining about the current status of batteries and hydrogen. the status of both will change, probably sooner rather than later

and yes, internal combustion engines are really shitty convertors of chemical to mechanical energy, about 30% efficient vs about 70% "round trip" efficiency for EV propulsion.

EVs will get extra mileage with regenerative braking, because not all EVs offer R/B, yet.

London Underground is experimenting with regenerative braking, and I bet Paris, etc, will, too.

Rolling bombs, aka tanker trucks, already deliver pressurized propane and methane, gasoline, and diesel to point of sale, so hydrogen could be so delivered.

[baseline bum]

Besides pollution, you really can't match or beat the efficiency of an electric engine though. Charging is the least of the problems, you can make stations that simply replace the battery, that's an instant charge. That's why a leap in battery tech is likely going to change the face of many industries.

That sounds pretty expensive though, and aren't you likely to have lots of batteries in your car? How much is a battery that can power a car for 400 miles going to weigh? Is a regular person going to be able to pull up to a station and pull it out for replacement on his own? It also seems like you might be pushing a lot of the pollution into landfills when these have to be dumped, so I'm not sure electric is the free lunch it's hyped to be when it comes to environmental impact, even if charged via solar.

[boutons_deux]

That sounds pretty expensive though, and aren't you likely to have lots of batteries in your car? How much is a battery that can power a car for 400 miles going to weigh? Is a regular person going to be able to pull up to a station and pull it out for replacement on his own? It also seems like you might be pushing a lot of the pollution into landfills when these have to be dumped, so I'm not sure electric is the free lunch it's hyped to be when it comes to environmental impact, even if charged via solar.

:lol

Do Your Own Research

-- WC

[ElNono]

That sounds pretty expensive though, and aren't you likely to have lots of batteries in your car? How much is a battery that can power a car for 400 miles going to weigh? Is a regular person going to be able to pull up to a station and pull it out for replacement on his own? It also seems like you might be pushing a lot of the pollution into landfills when these have to be dumped, so I'm not sure electric is the free lunch it's hyped to be when it comes to environmental impact, even if charged via solar.

Here's a video from 2009, demoing one of those stations in Japan, no human intervention required for the switch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8nTAjVaa7Y

The thing with batteries is re-usability. The battery that comes out goes to charge, while you go away with another full battery. Switch really takes no longer than gas pumping.

But you do bring up valid questions about what a battery that can do 400 miles will look like, besides power capacity, on things like weight and bio-degradation. At this time we gotta wait and see. I think the leap has to be big, and miniaturization can't be out of the question.

[ElNono]

BTW, I think Tesla is also offering battery swap stations in select locations...

[ElNono]

Here's a video from Renault, also from 2009, explaining the same concept:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-Azrt_wUkc

[boutons_deux]

BTW, I think Tesla is also offering battery swap stations in select locations...

Tesla's battery swap program is pretty much dead

the battery swap program isn’t being used.

When Tesla sent out an initial round of about 200 invitations to test the battery swap program only about four to five people opted to try it,

“People don’t care about pack swap,” Musk said.

“The superchargers are fast enough. Based on what we’re seeing here, it’s unlikely to be something that’s worth expanding in the future unless something changes.”

http://fortune.com/2015/06/10/teslas-battery-swap-is-dead/

[ElNono]

^ well, there goes that :lol

thanks

[ElNono]

I've seen some of those superchargers here in NJ a few weeks ago... look pretty cool, tbh

[baseline bum]

Tesla's battery swap program is pretty much dead

the battery swap program isn’t being used.

When Tesla sent out an initial round of about 200 invitations to test the battery swap program only about four to five people opted to try it,

“People don’t care about pack swap,” Musk said.

“The superchargers are fast enough. Based on what we’re seeing here, it’s unlikely to be something that’s worth expanding in the future unless something changes.”

http://fortune.com/2015/06/10/teslas-battery-swap-is-dead/





Well that sucks, that pretty much kills it as something you can use on long road trips.

[boutons_deux]

Well that sucks, that pretty much kills it as something you can use on long road trips.

battery swap only makes sense if there is a standard, rather than mfr-proprietary, battery format, like gasoline is generic, and not supplied by auto mfrs.

Why should EV mfrs be in the "fuel" business?

anyway, fast charging, long lasting, cheaper, higher density batteries are on the way. Regenerative braking + (super)capacitors will also help with mileage.

[Wild Cobra]

Well that sucks, that pretty much kills it as something you can use on long road trips.

I wouldn't like the idea myself. If I had a Tesla, I would be skeptical of changing my known battery for an unknown one.

[boutons_deux]

Well that sucks, that pretty much kills it as something you can use on long road trips.

charging stations must have generic connections, not proprietary.

road side, or near road side, restaurants could make business out of generic charging points with metered electricity, paid with a card swipe, exactly like liquid fuels.

[baseline bum]

charging stations must have generic connections, not proprietary.

road side, or near road side, restaurants could make business out of generic charging points with metered electricity, paid with a card swipe, exactly like liquid fuels.

But your waitress is going to get pissed when you're just sitting at her table for six hours waiting for your car to charge tbh.

[SpursforSix]

So what happens when we get a couple of cold winters and deplete the natural gas in storage? Even without any other future uses, the price of natural gas can be incredibly volatile, doubling and tripling in a month.

[Wild Cobra]

even if you can turn water to gas or whatever thats unlimited and free to energy

do you think those big stakeholders who have billions of dollars at stake will allow such scheme to get of the ground?

down here they already pulled out of solar funding cause its hurting big energy companies share prices and shit, biggest coal and gas reserves, u think they will allow solar to get off the ground? lmao monkey leaders

Energy profits are dropping because oil is getting cheap again. more supply, not only less wholesale, but more competition reduces profits.

Why should they find something as expensive as solar when oil is so much cheaper? The bottom of the cyclical market needs to be higher than now to make solar and wind attractive.

[boutons_deux]

" more competition reduces profits."

:lol (that's why BigCorp HATE competition and will do ANYTHING to avoid compeition) About the only place where competition is really working in major areas is cell phones, TV, vehicles.

there's no retail price war over gasoline or natgas. The price of oil is down because the Saudis trying maintain their producer dominance by killing off the US shale suppliers, producing a gut of oil.

"oil is so much cheaper"

:lol

"easy" oil has peaked, that's why oilcos are drilling down miles into the ocean and trying to drill in the Arctic.

solar and oil are not in direct competition in USA, except maybe Hawaii where fuel causes electricity to cost $0.30/hour (similar to Germany). As a result, Hawaii has highest penetration of rooftop solar, like 15%, so the electric utilities are right now trying to kill feed in tariff to preserve their profits.

Solar and wind are extremely close to parity with coal, NOT "expensive". you're blind ideology head is up your ass.

[boutons_deux]

and if the external costs of coal, gas, oil were accurately included, solar and wind would be easy winners.

[Wild Cobra]

and if the external costs of coal, gas, oil were accurately included, solar and wind would be easy winners.

No they wouldn't.

With strict regulations in place now, they are still cheaper. Not practical to get much stricter.

Tar sand areas are cleaner after extracting the oil then before.

[boutons_deux]

No they wouldn't.

With strict regulations in place now, they are still cheaper. Not practical to get much stricter.

Tar sand areas are cleaner after extracting the oil then before.

:lol Wrong, as always.

[boutons_deux]

No they wouldn't.

With strict regulations in place now, they are still cheaper. Not practical to get much stricter.

Tar sand areas are cleaner after extracting the oil then before.

Utility-Scale Solar Reaches Cost Parity With Natural Gas Throughout America

Although the Southwest has the lowest prices, $50 to $75 per megawatt-hour is the new norm across the country, according to GTM Research. Boulder’s PPA with SunPower, for example, came in at $46 per megawatt-hour and Austin Energy’s most recent solar project came in at under $50 per megawatt-hour.

Falling prices have also opened up some markets to avoided-cost contracts (http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Solar-at-Grid-Parity-in-Utah-a-Coal-State-With-No-RPS), where solar is cheaper than a utility’s avoided costs to generate electricity elsewhere. In states like Utah and North Carolina, avoided-cost contracts are bringing in various solar contracts.

“This recent onslaught of applications for avoided-cost contracts has prompted the utilities involved and their state utility regulators to re-evaluate these contracts and the utilities’ PURPA requirements," reads the Berkeley lab study.

http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/Utility-Scale-Solar-Reaches-Cost-Parity-With-Natural-Gas-Throughout-America

[boutons_deux]

No they wouldn't.

With strict regulations in place now, they are still cheaper. Not practical to get much stricter.

Tar sand areas are cleaner after extracting the oil then before.

Renewable Electricity Surpasses Coal In UK

For the July-September 2015 time frame, renewable sources produced more electricity than coal in the UK. The energy specialist EnAppSys found that 14.3 TWh was generated by renewables then, which was 20% of the UK’s average electricity production. Output from coal-fired power plants fell 54% during the same period, due to outages related to maintenance and lower gas prices. Gas and nuclear maintained their top two positions in UK electricityproduction (http://www.bioenergy-news.com/display_news/9772/renewables_overtake_coal_in_q3_electricity_generat ion/).
http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2015/10/Solar_panels_on_a_1930s_semi-570x320.jpg (http://c1cleantechnicacom.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/files/2015/10/Solar_panels_on_a_1930s_semi-e1446051811616.jpg)
That renewably-sourced electricity surpassed coal in the UK is quite a milestone. Many critics of renewable energy have said for years that such a thing couldn’t be done any time soon: coal is cheaper, with a proven technology, etc. Actually, burning coal has all sorts of problems associated with it, such as climate change emissions and toxic air pollution.

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/10/29/renewable-electricity-surpasses-coal-uk/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IM-cleantechnica+%28CleanTechnica%29

And naturally, knee-jerkily, the UK Conservatives are doing everything they can screw up renewables.

[hater]

It's still a natural resource. So it will still be subject to corporation, nation enslavement and war.

[boutons_deux]

But your waitress is going to get pissed when you're just sitting at her table for six hours waiting for your car to charge tbh.

ABB has unveiled a new automated fast-charger system for electric buses — a system that will potentially allow electric buses operating in urban environments to run 24/7, only being taken out of service occasionally for maintenance.

The basic idea behind the new system is the utilization of pantograph-based automated rooftop connection — one that could be fairly easily put into service on existing bus lines. The idea is short periods of charging — 4-6 minutes at a time,

http://cleantechnica.com/2015/10/30/abb-unveils-automated-fast-charger-system-for-electric-buses/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IM-cleantechnica+%28CleanTechnica%29

No doubt that charging cars in 10s of minutes rather than hours will arrive, as will range of 200+ miles, sufficient for almost all urban/suburban cars.