Where Would You Rate Manu Ginobili?

[The Artest Factor]

Where would you all rate Manu Ginobili overall and amongst shooting guards?
Here are some other shooting guards in the NBA. Some are considered SG/SF's, but you get the point.

Joe Johnson
Paul Pierce
Ricky Davis
Ben Gordon
Larry Hughes
Jerry Stackhouse
Marquis Daniels
Rip Hamilton
Jason Richardson
Tracy McGrady
Stephen Jackson
Cuttino Mobley
Corey Maggette
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Michael Redd
Vince Carter
Jamal Crawford
Quentin Richardson
Bonzi Wells
Ray Allen
Jalen Rose

[Brutalis]

Top 5.

[spurschick]

Call me a homer :spin

MANU GINOBILI
Joe Johnson
Paul Pierce
Ricky Davis
Ben Gordon
Larry Hughes
Jerry Stackhouse
Marquis Daniels
Rip Hamilton
Jason Richardson
Tracy McGrady
Stephen Jackson
Cuttino Mobley
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Michael Redd
Vince Carter
Jamal Crawford
Quentin Richardson
Bonzi Wells
Jalen Rose

[pjjrfan]

No. 4 behind Kobe, TMac, Wade, and then Manu. And then everyone else.

[The Artest Factor]

Top 5.
:angel

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tracy McGrady
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Vince Carter
5. Paul Pierce
6. Ray Allen
7. Corey Maggette
8. Jason Richardson
9. Larry Hughes
10. Manu Ginobili
11. Michael Redd
12. Rip Hamilton
13. Stephen Jackson
14. Ricky Davis
15. Jerry Stackhouse
16. Marquis Daniels
17. Cuttino Mobley
18. Bonzi Wells

[smeagol]

No. 4 behind Kobe, TMac, Wade, and then Manu. And then everyone else.
Pretty much what ^ he said. There are other SGs who are more talented then Manu (VC, Ray Ray) but I would go with a winner any day of the week rather than going with those losers.

[spurs=bling]

top 3

[The Artest Factor]

Look at Manu's stats. Those aren't top-3 stats. To be honest, those aren't even top-10 stats. He's just not what you all make him out to be.

[spurs=bling]

Look at Manu's stats. Those aren't top-3 stats. To be honest, those aren't even top-10 stats. He's just not what you all make him out to be.
TOP 3 and :stfu

[Knoxville Spur]

:angel

1. Kobe Bryant
2. Tracy McGrady
3. Dwyane Wade
4. Vince Carter
5. Paul Pierce
6. Ray Allen
7. Corey Maggette
8. Jason Richardson
9. Larry Hughes
10. Manu Ginobili
11. Michael Redd
12. Rip Hamilton
13. Stephen Jackson
14. Ricky Davis
15. Jerry Stackhouse
16. Marquis Daniels
17. Cuttino Mobley
18. Bonzi Wells

I think Manu is a better overall athlete than Ray. More pizzaz to his game then Maggette or Richardson by far. This is not even a credible post.

And for the money we pay him and being a 2nd round pick, factor that in and he's #1.

[Boo]

I'm a warriors fan, and I'll rate Ginobili higher than J-Rich and Spaghetti.

[spurs=bling]

[QUOTE=WhiiteManCanJump Spaghetti.[/QUOTE]
:lol

[Kori Ellis]

I think Manu is somewhere in the 7-10 range. But I don't care as long as he brings the rings.

[pjjrfan]

Look at Manu's stats. Those aren't top-3 stats. To be honest, those aren't even top-10 stats. He's just not what you all make him out to be.

Then why ask the question, if you don't want to hear what our opinions are. Where do u rate him? I rate him that high because the guy brings so many intangibles to the court it's ridiculous, he plays like the guy who never gets picked, who always has to work harder than anyone to stay on the team, like a guy who lives just to get into the court and play. And all that heart, desire and the guy has incredible talent and a sixth sense that keeps him in the middle of the action. I don't believe he is better than those 4 guys I put before him, but even so I think this guy is a true superstar in every sense of the word. I still say he reminds me of John Havlicek in his prime, not as a good a scorer, but the energy and hustle it's like watching his twin brother.

[E20]

Stats are meaningless when the Spurs are team oriented. Ginobili doesn't have the chance to jack up 20+ shots like everybody else on that list if he jacked up an unneccassary shot he'd be in the dog pound faster than Malik Rose. Those players mentioned on the list have the ball in there hands most of the time unlike Ginobili, put Ginobili in a setting where he is the main guy then it'd be a different story.

[picnroll]

I'd rate him starting SG on the NBA champs, best clutch shooting guard in the NBA. You know, the kind that brings home the Larry O'Brien.

[pjjrfan]

Let me put it another way, the guy whose name u use, Artest, let me compare him to Manu the last 3 years. Let's see 2 years ago against the Celtics the Pacers were the higher seeded team and they lost and they lost in the last mins becasue yeah, Ronnie went ballistic and got a tech and it cost them big time, they got eliminated. The last year in 04 he did the same thing against the PIstons, he went ballistic lost his cool and cost his team the game and the series. And let's not forget his spectacular showing in 05, oh wait he didn't even finish the season, he got suspended after another monumental breakdown this time it was a super duper.

Now Manu as a role player in 03 did a lot good things to help the Spurs win, the biggest was his steal of Jefferson's ball to get a slam dunk that completely changed the momentum and helped lead the Spurs to the title in game 6. He didn't so hot in 04, but clearly this past playoff run without Manu the Spurs would have struggled to get to the finals. Now who would you rather have, I personally would take Manu.

[spurs=bling]

Then why ask the question, if you don't want to hear what our opinions are. Where do u rate him? I rate him that high because the guy brings so many intangibles to the court it's ridiculous, he plays like the guy who never gets picked, who always has to work harder than anyone to stay on the team, like a guy who lives just to get into the court and play. And all that heart, desire and the guy has incredible talent and a sixth sense that keeps him in the middle of the action. I don't believe he is better than those 4 guys I put before him, but even so I think this guy is a true superstar in every sense of the word. I still say he reminds me of John Havlicek in his prime, not as a good a scorer, but the energy and hustle it's like watching his twin brother.
:tu

[FromWayDowntown]

All of you are feeding the troll.

[The Artest Factor]

But you have to know Manu is nothing without Duncan. Duncan is what makes the Spurs go-round. You could replace Manu with any top-10 shooting guard in the leaguer and the Spurs would be just as good, and better in many situations.

[smeagol]

But you have to know Manu is nothing without Duncan. Duncan is what makes the Spurs go-round. You could replace Manu with any top-10 shooting guard in the leaguer and the Spurs would be just as good, and better in many situations.
Sure Manu accomplished shit without Duncan.

Remember the Olympics, idiot?

[picnroll]

I agree with FromWayDownTown. Best thing to do is ignore this trolling clown.

[Spuritista]

manu sucks, what a waste of money!

[duncan_21]

I would say somewhere between 6-8.

[Boo]

Artest Factor, your an idiot.

[spurs=bling]

Sure Manu accomplished shit without Duncan.

Remember the Olympics, idiot?
:elephant :elephant

[spurs=bling]

manu sucks, what a waste of money!
and you call yourself a spurs fan???? :makemyday :flipoff :idiot


Spuritista
http://happytechfreak.com/pictures/stupid.gif

[Mark in Austin]

List in order of who I would want as the starting shooting guard in a post-oriented team: (like, oh... the Spurs, for instance)

1. Dwyane Wade - A complete package. Clutch, doesn't force things, low maintenance. Mature. Old School in the best sense of the phrase.
2. Tracy McGrady - Can still get better, especially defensively. But is already a monster. Discipline would make him a champion.
3. Manu Ginobili - Fearless, not a prima donna. Never gives up. Clutch at both ends of the court - can make game-changing plays without the ball in his hands. Incredibly efficient offensively.
4. Ray Allen - Sweetest stroke in the league, coming off a career year. Would be ranked higher if he hadn't let Bowen turn him into a 13 year old girl.
5. Kobe Bryant - On pure talent, would be at the top of this list, but has proven he doen't really like post-oriented offenses. Needs the ball in his hands too much. A threat to detonate at any anytime on the court, but hasn't mastered the art of WHEN to do so. He should have read the homework assignments phillup prepared for him all those years.
6. Joe Johnson - Ray Allen light. But with more balls, and a little less talent.
7. Rip Hamilton - Best mid-range game in the league. Automatic inside the arc.
8. Michael Redd - Talented, but I still question his mental toughness.
9. Ben Gordon - Might be better suited for a sixth man role. Clutch.
10. Larry Hughes - Next season will show if he's the next Pippen
11. Paul Pierce - Needs the ball in his hands too much. Allows himself to get too frustrated.
12. Stephen Jackson - No fear. Arguably no brains, too.
13. Corey Maggette - Playing for a loser can sure hide talent.
14. Ricky Davis - Has he turned a corner as elder statesman in Boston?
15. Vince Carter - Huge talent. Not mentally strong enough to consistently bring it every night. Loses 5 spots for quitting on his team.
16. Cuttino Mobley - Turns out the Mobley-Francis duo was more than just the sum of its parts.
17. Jason Richardson - the next Jerry Stackhouse.
18. Marquis Daniels - Jury's out. But I'd still take him over:
19. Quentin Richardson - Choke artist
20. Jalen Rose - the next Ron Mercer
21. Bonzi Wells - the next Kermit Washington
22. Jerry Stackhouse - who?
23. Jamal Crawford - my utter disdain for Isiah Thomas might have affected my judgement on his ranking.

[spurs=bling]

List in order of who I would want as the starting shooting guard in a post-oriented team:

1. Dwyane Wade - A complete package. Clutch, doesn't force things, low maintenance. Mature. Old School in the best sense of the phrase.
2. Tracy McGrady - Can still get better, especially defensively. But is already a monster. Discipline would make him a champion.
3. Manu Ginobili - Fearless, not a prima donna. Never gives up. Clutch at both ends of the court - can make game-changing plays without the ball in his hands. Incredibly efficient offensively.
4. Ray Allen - Sweetest stroke in the league, coming off a career year. Would be ranked higher if he hadn't let Bowen turn him into a 13 year old girl.
5. Kobe Bryant - On pure talent, would be at the top of this list, but has proven he doen't really like post-oriented offenses. Needs the ball in his hands too much. A threat to detonate at any anytime on the court, but hasn't mastered the art of WHEN to do so. He should have read the homework assignments phillup prepared for him all those years.
6. Joe Johnson - Ray Allen light. But with more balls, and a little less talent.
7. Rip Hamilton - Best mid-range game in the league. Automatic inside the arc.
8. Michael Redd - Talented, but I still question his mental toughness.
9. Ben Gordon - Might be better suited for a sixth man role. Clutch.
10. Larry Hughes - Next season will show if he's the next Pippen
11. Paul Pierce - Needs the ball in his hands too much. Allows himself to get too frustrated.
12. Stephen Jackson - No fear. Arguably no brains, too.
13. Corey Maggette - Playing for a loser can sure hide talent.
14. Ricky Davis - Has he turned a corner as elder statesman in Boston?
15. Vince Carter - Huge talent. Not mentally strong enough to consistently bring it every night. Loses 5 spots for quitting on his team.
16. Cuttino Mobley - Turns out the Mobley-Francis duo was more than just the sum of its parts.
17. Jason Richardson - the next Jerry Stackhouse.
18. Marquis Daniels - Jury's out. But I'd still take him over:
19. Quentin Richardson - Choke artist
20. Jalen Rose - the next Ron Mercer
21. Bonzi Wells - the next Kermit Washington
22. Jerry Stackhouse - who?
23. Jamal Crawford - my utter disdain for Isiah Thomas might have affected my judgement on his ranking.
you see i said manu in the top 3 :elephant

[Mark in Austin]

Note I qualified my rankings as "my starting shooting guard on a post-oriented team."

NOT who is the most talented.

[picnroll]

Nice listing and reasoning.


12. Stephen Jackson - No fear. Arguably no brains, too.


Doesn't this apply to every Pacer starter minus Foster?

[Kori Ellis]

Note I qualified my rankings as "my starting shooting guard on a post-oriented team."

NOT who is the most talented.

Yeah. That makes a world of difference. There's a big difference between just "most talented" and when you add in intangibles and role on their team, etc.

I thought this thread was about just talent.

[timvp]

I agree with MIA, although I'd probably switch TMac and Kobe. Kobe, for all his ballhogging and whining, is one very, very talented player. TMac I don't think has the heart to be a playoff warrior.

[picnroll]

Yeah. That makes a world of difference. There's a big difference between just "most talented" and when you add in intangibles and role on their team, etc.

I thought this thread was about just talent.
Question then. If you put Manu in a different system, I'll pick SG for the Suns, how would his stats and therefore his ranking change? I think to some extent Manu has accomodated his skills and compromised his game to suit the Spurs' system and needs. People who simply look at stats like the simpleton The Artest Factor would see greater stats on a Manu on the Suns and think "Gee he must be a good player afterall".

[Mark in Austin]

Well, I guess some people are of the opinion that talent trumps everything. But just to make it in the league you have to be talented. Plus, there are players with more talent that never made it. Ratings like this are by nature subjective - but I don't think they tell you anything without some sort of context. Winning at the highest level is more than raw talent and stats, as Portland (as a team) and Dominique Wilkins (as an individual) proved not so long ago. If I'm a GM with a post-oriented team and I'm ranking the SG's, I'm doing it from a standpoint of who can most help me win a championship.

[Ginofan]

Behind Kobe, DWade, Tmac, and Ray Allen.

[samikeyp]

Where would you all rate Manu Ginobili overall and amongst shooting guards?

Higher than you would. :)


#3.

[Mark in Austin]

I agree with MIA, although I'd probably switch TMac and Kobe. Kobe, for all his ballhogging and whining, is one very, very talented player. TMac I don't think has the heart to be a playoff warrior.


You know, that might turn out to be true. But if I'm making this list for next season, I think Kobe has lost a little lustre. If McGrady develops that missing defensive intensity, he could be a Pippen-caliber defensive force. Coupled with his offensive game, I think he would be the dominant force in the league.

I'm actually hoping Jackson can figure out how to get the best out of Kobe, because while I agree that McGrady has yet to prove he has the heart of a playoff warrior, Kobe in in danger of becoming the Barry Bonds of basketball: Supremely talented, but a complete asshole who alienates teammates and fans; and who therefore will never be the emotional leader of a team. Jackson I think was able to steer Jordan away from that path; but Jordan was headed down it for the same reason he eventually bought into Jackson's system: because he hated to lose more than anything else in life, and he realized that Jackson's way would win more games. Kobe might simply be too selfish/immature to be able to accept that.

I think they both have a lot to prove next season.

[manubili]

But you have to know Manu is nothing without Duncan. Duncan is what makes the Spurs go-round. You could replace Manu with any top-10 shooting guard in the leaguer and the Spurs would be just as good, and better in many situations.

Put those guys in the same team as Tim Duncan, and you'll see their stats going down really hard. I say Top 5. Get a clue about team play, and then talk about Manu.

Winners win. :king

[LilMissSPURfect]

somewhere Between AWESOME and BITCHIN'!!!!!! :elephant

[Leetonidas]

Look at Manu's stats. Those aren't top-3 stats. To be honest, those aren't even top-10 stats. He's just not what you all make him out to be.

Congratulations, that was the stupidest post I've ever seen. Here's your prize:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b331/pwnjoo1/omglol.png

Anyway...

I would rate Manu #3 behind Tracy McGrady and Dwayne Wade.

[Man In Black]

Manu Ginobili
Joe Johnson
Paul Pierce
Ricky Davis
Ben Gordon
Larry Hughes
Jerry Stackhouse
Marquis Daniels
Rip Hamilton
Jason Richardson
Tracy McGrady
Stephen Jackson
Cuttino Mobley
Corey Maggette
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Michael Redd
Vince Carter
Jamal Crawford
Quentin Richardson
Bonzi Wells
Ray Allen
Jalen Rose

The bolded guys are the only guys we can see possibly playing for a title the next few seasons, and out of those guys Ginobili raises his game as much as everyone listed except, he doesn't care about personal stats. HE ONLY CARES ABOUT W's and that's what makes him the best out there.

[Leetonidas]

By the way Artest Factor, don't take the picture all seriously and get your panties in a bunch. I was joking. I just think basing everything off stats is ridiculous.

[The Artest Factor]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong......
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/artestaholic/manusawoman.gif

[Sense]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong......
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/artestaholic/manusawoman.gif

2 things actually.


2 players have rings in that list.
Obviously the numbers don't matter.

[Alain]

And what about meaningfull stats such as:

- efficiency/mn
- pts/shot
- adj. shooting %
- +/- while on/off court ??

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just doesn't belong......
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v224/artestaholic/manusawoman.gif

Out of that list, how many have:

- Olympic Gold medal
- 2 NBA Rings
- World Championship silver medal
- Euroleague title and MVP
- NBA All-Star Game

...and the list could go on and on, but I guess you like better a ringless T-Mac, Vince, Pierce, J-Rich and other ballhogs. After all, basketball is about dunks and beating beer throwing fans, not about winning.

[spurs=bling]

Out of that list, how many have:

- Olympic Gold medal
- 2 NBA Rings
- World Championship silver medal
- Euroleague title and MVP
- NBA All-Star Game

...and the list could go on and on, but I guess you like better a ringless T-Mac, Vince, Pierce, J-Rich and other ballhogs. After all, basketball is about dunks and beating beer throwing fans, not about winning.
:tu :smokin

[Ginofan]

04-05 MPG
TMac - 40.8
Kobe - 40.7
R.Allen - 39.3
DWade - 38.6
Redd - 38.0
JRich - 37.8
C. Maggette - 36.9
VC - 36.7
P.Pierce - 36.1
Ginobili - 29.6

04-05 FG%
DWade - 47.3
Ginobili - 47.1
P.Pierce - 45.5
VC - 45.2
JRich - 44.6
Redd - 44.1
Kobe - 43.3
TMac - 43.1
C. Maggette - 43.1
R.Allen - 42.8

04-05 3P%
VC - 40.6
Ginobili - 37.6
R.Allen - 37.6
P.Pierce - 37.0
Redd - 35.5
Kobe - 33.9
JRich - 33.8
TMac - 32.6
C. Maggette - 30.4
DWade - 28.9

[zeleni]

04-05 MPG
TMac - 40.8
Kobe - 40.7
R.Allen - 39.3
DWade - 38.6
Redd - 38.0
JRich - 37.8
C. Maggette - 36.9
VC - 36.7
P.Pierce - 36.1
Ginobili - 29.6

04-05 FG%
DWade - 47.3
Ginobili - 47.1
P.Pierce - 45.5
VC - 45.2
JRich - 44.6
Redd - 44.1
Kobe - 43.3
TMac - 43.1
C. Maggette - 43.1
R.Allen - 42.8

04-05 3P%
VC - 40.6
Ginobili - 37.6
R.Allen - 37.6
P.Pierce - 37.0
Redd - 35.5
Kobe - 33.9
JRich - 33.8
TMac - 32.6
C. Maggette - 30.4
DWade - 28.9

Now this is sick!

[angel_luv]

Call me a homer :spin

MANU GINOBILI
Joe Johnson
Paul Pierce
Ricky Davis
Ben Gordon
Larry Hughes
Jerry Stackhouse
Marquis Daniels
Rip Hamilton
Jason Richardson
Tracy McGrady
Stephen Jackson
Cuttino Mobley
Kobe Bryant
Dwyane Wade
Michael Redd
Vince Carter
Jamal Crawford
Quentin Richardson
Bonzi Wells
Jalen Rose

Start a fan club and I'll join. = )

[spurs=bling]

Start a fan club and I'll join. = )
count me in :elephant

[sprrs]

Out of that list, how many have:

- Olympic Gold medal
- 2 NBA Rings
- World Championship silver medal
- Euroleague title and MVP
- NBA All-Star Game

...and the list could go on and on, but I guess you like better a ringless T-Mac, Vince, Pierce, J-Rich and other ballhogs. After all, basketball is about dunks and beating beer throwing fans, not about winning.

You guys realize what he's doing right? He doesn't care what you guys put to counter him he's not going to listen. I'm pretty sure he knows stats aren't the only important thing when it comes to evaluating a basketball player, and if he doesn't know that he's a moron. In fact i'm pretty sure he's aware of that otherwise he wouldn't keep pushing stats in your face to piss you off.

Ignore him.

[TOP-CHERRY]

I feel so used.



:D

[whottt]

Manu is the second or third best SG in the NBA...

Kobe is better...although I'd say that Kobe's ME attitude is a definite negative that offsets his talent.

TMac and Vince Carter are not better than Manu.

Vince Carter is a puss who can't even stay healthy.
TMac's team had the worst record in the NBA a couple of years ago and lost 19 games in a row.


IF Manu just went out there and dominated the ball jacking up shots he'd easily be a 20-25 PPG scorer...and it's hard for me to imagine a team being built around Manu not making the playoffs.....it's not hard to imagine that with Kobe and especially TMac and Carter.


When you take into account big game play, unselfishness, a willingness to do what it takes to win, versatility, feel for the game, and absolute thirst for victory...I don't think there is a SG as good as Manu in the NBA.

What are the negatives about Manu? There aren't many...he can't play 40 minutes a game...

That's the only one I can think of...

[picnroll]

Tex Winters (you know the guy who coached MJ, Kobe and Pippen) ranking of players from Lindy's Basketball Preview:

Point Guard
1. Nash
2. Billups
3. Davis

Shooting Guard
1. Kobe
2. Manu
3. Rip

Combo Guard
1. Wade
2. Iverson
3. Allen

Small Forward
1.McGrady
2. LeBron
3. Marion

Power Forward
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Dirk

Center
1. Amare
2. Shaq
3. Yao

"Comers"
1. Okafor
2. Dwight Howard
3. Ben Gordon

[Nikos]

Top 5-6 SG depending on where you classify Tmac, Pierce, and Lebron. I tend to put them as SF's. With that being said, Manu is about 6th as of right now. Hopefully he can maintain his great play of last season, and he should be right up there with most of the best SG's in the league.

[2centsworth]

Which Version of Manu are we talking about? The playoff version or the regular season version. Much like Robert Horry, Manu is a completely different player in the post season.

'05 postseason version of Manu is second to maybe Kobe but that's it.

[JamStone]

Manu has become an unstoppable force at times, and has proven it on the international stage, the Olympics, and in the NBA finals. Basketball is still a team game, so one cannot simply say a player isn't that good because his team was the worst in the league. If we're talking about the best combination of skill, talent, work ethic, discipline, and will to win, with the heavier emphasis on actual skill and talent, I would rank shooting guards as follows:


1. Kobe Bryant
2. Dwyane Wade
3. Manu Ginobili
4. Ray Allen
5. Vince Carter
6. Paul Pierce
7. Joe Johnson
8. Rip Hamilton
9. Larry Hughes
10. Jason Richardson
11. Michael Redd


If I were ranking shooting guards SOLELY on skill and talent, I'd probably drop Manu Ginobili to the 6 or 7 spot. His defense, determination, and leadership on a great team definitely helps his status, in my mind.

I do consider Tracy McGrady a small forward because I think he will end up playing small forward the majority of the time for the rest of his career. Otherwise, I'd probably rank him second or third on this list.

[SoupIsGood]

Sassan is the king of long threads.

[whottt]

Tex Winters (you know the guy who coached MJ, Kobe and Pippen) ranking of players from Lindy's Basketball Preview:

Point Guard
1. Nash
2. Billups
3. Davis

On sheer stud ability Davis may outrank Parker...


But Davis has career altering back problems that make him more of a gamble that Parker...and Parker whupped on his ass too in that OT game. But the injuries are why Davis didn't get ranked more highly on my list.

[ALVAREZ6]

I'd put Manu at #4 behind T-mac, Kobe, and Wade, but I would take him over any of them anyday for the fact that he is so effecient, and doesn't request a lot of money, and he knows his role on a team and doesn't bitch.

Let's put it this way: If Kobe is a hummer, then Manu is an electric car. Both get you from point A to point B, only Manu is way more effecient.

[Samr]

Look at Manu's stats. Those aren't top-3 stats. To be honest, those aren't even top-10 stats. He's just not what you all make him out to be.

But Manu was out on the court, consistently and possitively effecting games well into the Finals. Yeah, I know- Without Duncan the Spurs would never have made it past the second round. But without Manu? I can only imagine who would be the reigning NBA Champions.

Trust me, fella, it's not just about stats. Look at your own Pacers for a perfect example. When Artest went PMS on the better part of Detroit's fanbase, Indiana did lose some scoring, rebounding, and steals. But they made up for that with other players while Artest was making busy songs (and I use that term loosely) and being Stern's bitch. What Indiana didn't have was the toughness, and the aggressiveness that he brought to the table. What they didn't have were the intangibles about Artest which don't show up on the stat sheet.

I'm sure Manu's statistical relativity is a great way to qualify someone you don't want to acknowledge as one of the leading shooting guards. I'm sure it's easy to say "well, he doesn't score/rebound/share the ball enough to be anywhere near those other guys." But before you open your mouth again, I suggest you look at your own team, look at Indiana's intangibles, before you try to hang your coat on the popular hook.

It doesn't hold.

[Rick Von Braun]

Tex Winters (you know the guy who coached MJ, Kobe and Pippen) ranking of players from Lindy's Basketball Preview:

Point Guard
1. Nash
2. Billups
3. Davis

Shooting Guard
1. Kobe
2. Manu
3. Rip

Combo Guard
1. Wade
2. Iverson
3. Allen

Small Forward
1.McGrady
2. LeBron
3. Marion

Power Forward
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Dirk

Center
1. Amare
2. Shaq
3. Yao

"Comers"
1. Okafor
2. Dwight Howard
3. Ben Gordon That is a huge compliment from a very experienced and knowledgable basketball person. Tex Winter's opinion has more weight than the entire collective of this board.

[carina_gino20]

That is a huge compliment from a very experienced and knowledgable basketball person. Tex Winter's opinion has more weight than the entire collective of this board.

:tu

maybe behind Kobe in the skills department but character, ethics and all, i think Manu is a lot better

[picnroll]

:tu

maybe behind Kobe in the skills department but character, ethics and all, i think Manu is a lot better
Talent-wise Manu is right up there with the best. When you factor in leadership, teamsmanship, instilling confidence I agree it may put him over the top. Kobe is a great, great talent. There heve to be serious questions at this point about his leadership, the chemistry he creates to form a team around. SHaq was the glue to create chemistry on the lakers.

Same leadership, chemistry issue have to go with guys like Pierce, Carter.

The entire Pacers team has huge question marks regarding leadership and on and off the court intelligence. They're asking O'Neal to step up but he hasn't shown a ton of maturity or leadership in the past In fact Bird at times this past off season has alluded to this being a make or break year for Jermaine on the Pacers. Artest? Leader? :lol Jackson? Leader? :lol Tinsley? Composed, intelligent leader? :lol I guess that's why Bird brought in Sarunas, in the hopes he could get those knuckleheads to play with some intelligence, self-restraint and discipline.

[Spurminator]

Interesting that Tex ranked Amare over Shaq...

[smeagol]

Manu is the second or third best SG in the NBA...

Kobe is better...although I'd say that Kobe's ME attitude is a definite negative that offsets his talent.

TMac and Vince Carter are not better than Manu.

Vince Carter is a puss who can't even stay healthy.
TMac's team had the worst record in the NBA a couple of years ago and lost 19 games in a row.


IF Manu just went out there and dominated the ball jacking up shots he'd easily be a 20-25 PPG scorer...and it's hard for me to imagine a team being built around Manu not making the playoffs.....it's not hard to imagine that with Kobe and especially TMac and Carter.


When you take into account big game play, unselfishness, a willingness to do what it takes to win, versatility, feel for the game, and absolute thirst for victory...I don't think there is a SG as good as Manu in the NBA.

What are the negatives about Manu? There aren't many...he can't play 40 minutes a game...

That's the only one I can think of...
:tu

Its been such a long time since we agreed on something :spin

[Bruno]

Where Would You Rate Manu Ginobili?

First, he is so cute. (sorry if already posted) :spin

http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/1319/c3715bbf3fz.jpg

[NZHayden]

wtf?^

[MaNuMaNiAc]

That's not Manu

[Medvedenko]

How may threads do we need ranking Manu.....
He's good...
Top 5.

[spurs=bling]

That's not Manu
manu mania they don't listen

[Nikos]

That is a huge compliment from a very experienced and knowledgable basketball person. Tex Winter's opinion has more weight than the entire collective of this board.

Why is Ray Allen listed as a combo guard?

[Rummpd]

Kobe>Wade>McGrady>Manu>VC

The truth is written!

[nkdlunch]

mmmm...look at my sig and take a guess :smokin

[Medvedenko]

I still wouldn't put Wade behind Kobe.
Kobe was the most effecient 2 gaurd in the game last year and still had "poor" year. Manu obviously doesn't have the stats or the minutes to compete just yet. That doesn't mean he coudn't put up the numbers if given the opportunity. Now for a hard working and fearless competitor...not many can compare to Gino.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I'd probably put him at 3 behind Kobe and McGrady. Alot of people are putting Wade ahead of him and I don't really agree with that for the moment. Dwayne will probably be a better player in the long run but at the moment I'd take Manu. Here's the biggest reason why I think he belongs that high up: If Manu got traded to ANY team in the league he would instantly make them better. Most of those guys listed have to be the go-to guy or they wouldn't be happy. Manu has proven that he could be a #1 scoring threat for an NBA team, but he's comfortable with simply doing his job on his team. As so many others have pointed out, he's a winner.

[romsey31]

Look at Manu's stats. Those aren't top-3 stats. To be honest, those aren't even top-10 stats. He's just not what you all make him out to be.

How the hell is he gonna get top 3 stats playing on such a well balanced team? Put him on the raptors and he could drop 30 a night. Sometimes you should get up off your brain before posting.

[romsey31]

manu sucks, what a waste of money!


Yea he sure is, I wish the Spurs management had your kind of wisdom, maybe they'd send him to the Pacers for Reggie's salary :lol

[ObiwanGinobili]

And what about meaningfull stats such as:

- efficiency/mn
- pts/shot
- adj. shooting %
- +/- while on/off court ??


to me that +/- is the most important factor in where I personally rank players.
Becasue it;s all about hte TEAM baby and what you can bring to the TEAM! :smokin

[MiNuS]

Manu's got "it". Whatever "it" is that can win championships with or without Tim Duncan or against a Tim Duncan in the team.
Take out Manu out of the Spurs line-up and Tim doesn't look that great in the this past playoff run.

[TDMVPDPOY]

Manu's got "it". Whatever "it" is that can win championships with or without Tim Duncan or against a Tim Duncan in the team.
Take out Manu out of the Spurs line-up and Tim doesn't look that great in the this past playoff run.

You wont look great playin with 2 bumb ankles mate

[Medvedenko]

Hold your horses...so if Manu was on Toronto he would average 30 points...please. He's good but that's not going to happen. Oh and also effeciency per minute doesn't mean anything. Playing heavy minutes is a testement to itself that will wear down a player. It's one thing to play like an all-star for 25-30 minutes than it is for playing 40-45 as a superstar.

[K-9]

Where would I rate Manu Ginobili? Hmm...He's not Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady...but then again in a way he is. Damn, Manu can dunk, fly and do all the stuff them guys do and he is always on a winnning team.
I watched pretty much every game in the 2004 olympics and I was really impressed with Manu. Remember Argentina won it all and Manu was the main reason why. He was their star, but he wasn't selfish. He was very calm and played wonderful basketball.

Both Argentina and the San Antonio Spurs play team ball. It seems like people tend to forget that basketball is a team sport and think it's something individual. Hence; Kobe, T-mac, VC, Ray Allen and players like that are ranked very high. But Baskteball is a team sport and Manu is a team player. I know that saying that he's a team first guy doesn't sound that hot but it is! That's what basketball is all about, the team!
I gotta rate Manu as the top SG in the world. Here is my equation on Manu's greatness.

NBA All Star+Olympic Champion+NBA Champion=Manu Ginobili!

Need I say more? I'll mention this, I think Manu's best year is going to be this season. Can't wait for it to start!

[picnroll]

Hold your horses...so if Manu was on Toronto he would average 30 points...please. He's good but that's not going to happen. Oh and also effeciency per minute doesn't mean anything. Playing heavy minutes is a testement to itself that will wear down a player. It's one thing to play like an all-star for 25-30 minutes than it is for playing 40-45 as a superstar.
Define what a superstar plays like.

[Medvedenko]

Define what a superstar plays like.

See: Kobe Bryant


Where would I rate Manu Ginobili? Hmm...He's not Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady...but then again in a way he is. Damn, Manu can dunk, fly and do all the stuff them guys do and he is always on a winnning team.
I watched pretty much every game in the 2004 olympics and I was really impressed with Manu. Remember Argentina won it all and Manu was the main reason why. He was their star, but he wasn't selfish. He was very calm and played wonderful basketball.

Both Argentina and the San Antonio Spurs play team ball. It seems like people tend to forget that basketball is a team sport and think it's something individual. Hence; Kobe, T-mac, VC, Ray Allen and players like that are ranked very high. But Baskteball is a team sport and Manu is a team player. I know that saying that he's a team first guy doesn't sound that hot but it is! That's what basketball is all about, the team!
I gotta rate Manu as the top SG in the world. Here is my equation on Manu's greatness.

NBA All Star+Olympic Champion+NBA Champion=Manu Ginobili!

Need I say more? I'll mention this, I think Manu's best year is going to be this season. Can't wait for it to start!

Now I know I'm pretty much a Kobe Jocker...but damn K9 you make me laugh. I guess Kobe's rings weren't about team ball...it was just him jacking up all those shots....every championship team sacrifces the self for the whole. It all depends on what you're looking at.

[cheguevara]

See: Kobe Bryant


I think he wanted to know the definition of Superstar, not
"The Most Selfish Superstar in the League who won't ever win a ring again"

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I think he wanted to know the definition of Superstar, not
"The Most Selfish Superstar in the League who won't ever win a ring again"

He and Shaq aren't so different yet they couldn't get along. How ironic.

[TheWriter]

Mouse is getting his ass owned in this thread.

[The Artest Factor]

Manu's got "it". Whatever "it" is that can win championships with or without Tim Duncan or against a Tim Duncan in the team.
Take out Manu out of the Spurs line-up and Tim doesn't look that great in the this past playoff run.
:lol
He doesn't have "It". He has the same thing Sean Elliott had. No not 1 kidney. Duncan and a strong supporting cast. Put Manu on the Warriors and he's a nobody. Put Manu on the Jazz and he's a nobody. Put Manu on any non-playoff team and he's a nobody.
Wally Szczerbiak was putting up better numbers than Manu has ever put up, and he even made the All-Star team. Look at where he is now.
Manu Ginobili = Wally Szczerbiak

[batman2883]

:lol
He doesn't have "It". He has the same thing Sean Elliott had. No not 1 kidney. Duncan and a strong supporting cast. Put Manu on the Warriors and he's a nobody. Put Manu on the Jazz and he's a nobody. Put Manu on any non-playoff team and he's a nobody.
Wally Szczerbiak was putting up better numbers than Manu has ever put up, and he even made the All-Star team. Look at where he is now.
Manu Ginobili = Wally Szczerbiak


HA HA HA AH Man you are a funny mofo.....Manu is a great player and thats why he has earned the respect of many superstars in the league. Don't hate because your beloved Ron Artest sucks ass and is Bipolar. Leave the real basketball information to adults go play in your Pacer's clubhouse or something god damn it

[cheguevara]

:lol
He doesn't have "It". He has the same thing Sean Elliott had. No not 1 kidney. Duncan and a strong supporting cast. Put Manu on the Warriors and he's a nobody. Put Manu on the Jazz and he's a nobody. Put Manu on any non-playoff team and he's a nobody.
Wally Szczerbiak was putting up better numbers than Manu has ever put up, and he even made the All-Star team. Look at where he is now.
Manu Ginobili = Wally Szczerbiak

:lol what a fucking ignorant moron! Have you ever heard of the Olympics? Well I wouldn't expect an Artest fan to know these things.

[MiNuS]

:lol
He doesn't have "It". He has the same thing Sean Elliott had. No not 1 kidney. Duncan and a strong supporting cast. Put Manu on the Warriors and he's a nobody. Put Manu on the Jazz and he's a nobody. Put Manu on any non-playoff team and he's a nobody.
Wally Szczerbiak was putting up better numbers than Manu has ever put up, and he even made the All-Star team. Look at where he is now.
Manu Ginobili = Wally Szczerbiak
Manu wins anywhere he plays.Wally "world" doesn't. No comparison by far! Manu is higher intellectually and is a master of the court.

If Manu is lucky playing with Duncan he is going to be even better with his compatriate Oberto.Like Duncan said,"he hasn't even scratched the surface of what he(Manu)can do"

Manu,doesn't have to have the greatest stats,he just has to be on the floor and Bowen will take care of rest.!

[batman2883]

Man fuck this shit already, I can't wait to see the Spurs beat the shit out of the Pacers, so that these stupid Pacer's fans would stfu already. They think they have a better team, they have an oft-injured Power Foward, a Criminial crazy ass (should be admitted to Belvue) Small Foward, a piece of shit point guard, a nobody center, and nothing of a shooting guard, yet they think that the Spurs are a worse team....trying to cuts on Manu???? On Tim??? there's a reason the Spurs have 3 rings in the past 7 years, how man do the damn Pacers have, oh yeah i forgot none their asses can't even get passed the 3rd round......The Heat will play the Spurs this year in the Finals count on it.

[smeagol]

Manu Ginobili = Wally Szczerbiak
The Arest Factor= LakeGod

[woodseed]

Hi all. I feel that Manu is awesome, but putting him before freakish talents like Kobe and McGrady is just wrong. Image a team with Tim Duncan and Kobe or McGrady. The 1 thing about Manu that wins over Kobe or McGrady is that he is a team player, and All-Star caliber team players are hard to come by.

Kobe = McGrady > Manu = Wade

[batman2883]

Okay look i never said he was better than them i said he is awesome...

this is how i see it...
TMAC>Kobe
Wade<Kobe
Manu>Wade

[woodseed]

^ Hello!
I was kind of responding to rummpd when he wrote that:

"Kobe>Wade>McGrady>Manu>VC"

Because I think McGrady is at least as good as Kobe and Manu is at least as good as Wade, and both McGrady and Kobe are a knotch above Manu and Wade.

But I suppose we all agree Manu is AWESOME!

[picnroll]

Kobe = McGrady > Manu = Wade
Assumiong they're on the same team, ten seconds to go down one I'd rather have the ball in Manu's hands than in Kobe's or TMac's hands.

[manubili]

The others Pacers fans have been polite and classy in this threat. This moron Artest Factor, is just trolling arround. Thanks dude to give us some shit to talk about. But try harder next time. Make some sense.