It’s Getting Harder To Move Beyond A Minimum-Wage Job

[RandomGuy]

Minimum-wage jobs are meant to be the first rung on a career ladder, a chance for entry-level workers to prove themselves before earning a promotion or moving on to other, better-paying jobs. But a growing number of Americans are getting stuck on that first rung for years, if they ever move up at all.

Anthony Kemp is one of them. In 2006, he took a job as a cook at a Kentucky Fried Chicken in Oak Park, Illinois. The job paid the state minimum wage, $6.50 an hour at the time, but Kemp figured he could work his way up.

“Normally, a good cook would make $14, $15, $17 an hour,” Kemp said. “I thought that of course I’d make a better wage.”

He never did; nine years later, the only raises Kemp, 44, has seen have been the ones required by state law. He earns $8.25, the state’s current minimum wage.

Stories like Kemp’s are becoming more common. During the strong labor market of the mid-1990s, only 1 in 5 minimum-wage workers was still earning minimum wage a year later.1 Today, that number is nearly 1 in 3, according to my analysis of government survey data.2 There has been a similar rise in the number of people staying in minimum-wage jobs for three years or longer. (For a more detailed explanation of how I conducted this analysis, see the footnote below.)3

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/casselman-feature-minwage-1.png?w=610&h=459

Even those who do get a raise often don’t get much of one: Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers in 2013 were still earning within 10 percent of the minimum wage a year later, up from about half in the 1990s. And two-fifths of Americans earning the minimum wage in 2008 were still in near-minimum-wage jobs five years later, despite the economy steadily improving during much of that time.4

The trend partly reflects the recession and slow recovery, which has brought weak wage growth for nearly all workers. But it also likely reflects longer-run shifts in the economy that have eroded workers’ bargaining power, particularly for the less-educated. That sense of stagnation may be part of what is fueling the nationwide push for a higher minimum wage, which has gained significant momentum in recent years. Voters in five states, including Illinois, approved minimum-wage increases last November,5 and several cities, including Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles, have passed significant wage hikes. Kemp has joined fast-food workers across the country in demonstrations demanding higher pay as part of the union-backed “Fight for $15” movement.6

“They’re saying that because of the cost of labor and the operating costs they can’t afford to give anyone any raises, but I don’t quite believe that,” Kemp said.

Kemp is representative of the changing minimum-wage workforce in another way as well: At 44 years old, he is one of a growing number of middle-aged minimum-wage workers. Nearly a quarter of the 3.2 million minimum-wage workers in 2014 were over 40; half were 25 or older, up from about 40 percent two decades earlier.7 The face of the minimum wage has changed significantly in recent decades. As a group, today’s minimum-wage workers are far more educated than in the 1980s or 1990s. They are also more likely to be men and more likely to have children. More than half of low-wage workers — significantly more than in past decades — are trying to support themselves, not living with their parents or supplementing a spouse’s income.

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/casselman-feature-minwage-3-corrected.png?w=610&h=617

That profile runs counter to the popular image of minimum-wage workers as mostly teenagers, less-educated immigrants or others trying to break into the workforce. Opponents of a higher minimum wage often warn that setting the wage floor too high could close off opportunities for people looking to gain a foothold in the working world. “Let’s not lock millions of people out of entry-level employment by raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour,” conservative commentator Reihan Salam wrote in Slate earlier this year.

That idea of the minimum wage as a stepping stone hasn’t entirely disappeared. A large, though shrinking, percentage of minimum-wage earners are teenagers, and most of them do move on to better-paying jobs relatively quickly.8 But even young people are finding it harder to escape the minimum wage: More than a quarter of minimum-wage earners under 25 are still making minimum wage a year later, compared with about a sixth in the mid-1990s.

Older minimum-wage workers, perhaps unsurprisingly, face an even tougher time. More than 30 percent of those ages 25 or older are still working for minimum wage after a year. And more than 20 percent of those working for the minimum wage in 2008 were still in such jobs after about three years. Even those who did get raises often didn’t get big ones: Nearly 70 percent were earning within 10 percent of the minimum wage after three years. That suggests that workers who are forced to take low-wage jobs later in life have a particularly hard time escaping them.

(see the rest at:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/its-getting-harder-to-move-beyond-a-minimum-wage-job/

[tlongII]

I'm guessing you're a proponent of increasing the minimum wage?

[boutons_deux]

Repugs LIE that minimum wage jobs are only for kids who worthless anyway.

[DMX7]

Having a college degree seems to be pretty important in avoiding a minimum wage job.

[boutons_deux]

Having a college degree seems to be pretty important in avoiding a minimum wage job.

about 1/3 of recent college grads are in jobs that don't require a college degree.

[DMX7]

about 1/3 of recent college grads are in jobs that don't require a college degree.

And many of them choose majors that were almost certainly not going to land them a desired job.

[boutons_deux]

And many of them choose majors that were almost certainly not going to land them a desired job.

vocational schools, colleges are different from academic colleges.

[DMX7]

vocational schools, colleges are different from academic colleges.

I know.

[101A]

Minimum-wage jobs are meant to be the first rung on a career ladder, a chance for entry-level workers to prove themselves before earning a promotion or moving on to other, better-paying jobs. But a growing number of Americans are getting stuck on that first rung for years, if they ever move up at all.

Anthony Kemp is one of them. In 2006, he took a job as a cook at a Kentucky Fried Chicken in Oak Park, Illinois. The job paid the state minimum wage, $6.50 an hour at the time, but Kemp figured he could work his way up.

“Normally, a good cook would make $14, $15, $17 an hour,” Kemp said. “I thought that of course I’d make a better wage.”

He never did; nine years later, the only raises Kemp, 44, has seen have been the ones required by state law. He earns $8.25, the state’s current minimum wage.

Stories like Kemp’s are becoming more common. During the strong labor market of the mid-1990s, only 1 in 5 minimum-wage workers was still earning minimum wage a year later.1 Today, that number is nearly 1 in 3, according to my analysis of government survey data.2 There has been a similar rise in the number of people staying in minimum-wage jobs for three years or longer. (For a more detailed explanation of how I conducted this analysis, see the footnote below.)3

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/casselman-feature-minwage-1.png?w=610&h=459

Even those who do get a raise often don’t get much of one: Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers in 2013 were still earning within 10 percent of the minimum wage a year later, up from about half in the 1990s. And two-fifths of Americans earning the minimum wage in 2008 were still in near-minimum-wage jobs five years later, despite the economy steadily improving during much of that time.4

The trend partly reflects the recession and slow recovery, which has brought weak wage growth for nearly all workers. But it also likely reflects longer-run shifts in the economy that have eroded workers’ bargaining power, particularly for the less-educated. That sense of stagnation may be part of what is fueling the nationwide push for a higher minimum wage, which has gained significant momentum in recent years. Voters in five states, including Illinois, approved minimum-wage increases last November,5 and several cities, including Seattle, San Francisco and Los Angeles, have passed significant wage hikes. Kemp has joined fast-food workers across the country in demonstrations demanding higher pay as part of the union-backed “Fight for $15” movement.6

“They’re saying that because of the cost of labor and the operating costs they can’t afford to give anyone any raises, but I don’t quite believe that,” Kemp said.

Kemp is representative of the changing minimum-wage workforce in another way as well: At 44 years old, he is one of a growing number of middle-aged minimum-wage workers. Nearly a quarter of the 3.2 million minimum-wage workers in 2014 were over 40; half were 25 or older, up from about 40 percent two decades earlier.7 The face of the minimum wage has changed significantly in recent decades. As a group, today’s minimum-wage workers are far more educated than in the 1980s or 1990s. They are also more likely to be men and more likely to have children. More than half of low-wage workers — significantly more than in past decades — are trying to support themselves, not living with their parents or supplementing a spouse’s income.

https://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2015/10/casselman-feature-minwage-3-corrected.png?w=610&h=617

That profile runs counter to the popular image of minimum-wage workers as mostly teenagers, less-educated immigrants or others trying to break into the workforce. Opponents of a higher minimum wage often warn that setting the wage floor too high could close off opportunities for people looking to gain a foothold in the working world. “Let’s not lock millions of people out of entry-level employment by raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour,” conservative commentator Reihan Salam wrote in Slate earlier this year.

That idea of the minimum wage as a stepping stone hasn’t entirely disappeared. A large, though shrinking, percentage of minimum-wage earners are teenagers, and most of them do move on to better-paying jobs relatively quickly.8 But even young people are finding it harder to escape the minimum wage: More than a quarter of minimum-wage earners under 25 are still making minimum wage a year later, compared with about a sixth in the mid-1990s.

Older minimum-wage workers, perhaps unsurprisingly, face an even tougher time. More than 30 percent of those ages 25 or older are still working for minimum wage after a year. And more than 20 percent of those working for the minimum wage in 2008 were still in such jobs after about three years. Even those who did get raises often didn’t get big ones: Nearly 70 percent were earning within 10 percent of the minimum wage after three years. That suggests that workers who are forced to take low-wage jobs later in life have a particularly hard time escaping them.

(see the rest at:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/its-getting-harder-to-move-beyond-a-minimum-wage-job/

It's actually completely up to the owner of the business. I don't fear my employees leaving for better pay, frankly - the job market is that week. It took a while to get to the point where I COULD give raises (the downturn, and then Obamacare-my business is in health insurance), but now we have given global raises to our employees. Felt bad we couldn't for so long. (I am still at '07 wage level, btw; hoping to increase my salary in the next year).

But employers who don't feel that guilt or responsibility don't have to give raises; the market just isn't there.

Minimum wage increase is only a temporary fix; it would probably suppress the market - minimum wage, although higher, would still suck and those people would be even MORE stuck. $15 an hour would, frankly, bump up against some of my lower paid employees - all of a sudden they would be comparable in pay to a burger flipper. Don't know how that dynamic would work. If they all demanded more money to not be equivalent, and I STILL want a raise myself? Maybe outsourcing to India becomes more attractive.

[boutons_deux]

"the job market is that week."

the "quit rate" is up in the last few months so some employees are moving on to better pay, but overall, BigCorp/VRWC has totally busted employees, won the War on Employees, so real income household income has been stagnant for 35+ years, and some employment segments have actually lost real income since 2000.

America (of the 99%) is fucked and unfuckable.

btw, several economic indicators are flat or declining, so a recession, or stagnation, is probable.

Repugs will certainly do everything they can to kill jobs and the economy, at every level of govt.

[spurraider21]

cant move beyond a minimum wage job?

liberal solution = increase minimum wage

[spurraider21]

And many of them choose majors that were almost certainly not going to land them a desired job.
this. faggots should stop majoring in art history, anthropology, and philosophy if they're expecting a job. or at least prepared to go to grad school.

[101A]

cant move beyond a minimum wage job?

liberal solution = increase minimum wage

In RG's defense, he has not suggested raising the MW - we have assumed that.

But you can add to your equation:

Stuck in Minimum Wage Job = Raise Minimum Wage = More people Stuck at Minimum wage looking to the government to raise their pay = More who vote for more government = ultimate goal

[baseline bum]

In RG's defense, he has not suggested raising the MW - we have assumed that.

But you can add to your equation:

Stuck in Minimum Wage Job = Raise Minimum Wage = More people Stuck at Minimum wage looking to the government to raise their pay = More who vote for more government = ultimate goal

A $15 minimum wage is clearly ridiculous in most parts of the country, but it would be nice to raise it a bit so taxpayers could stop having to subsidize Wal-Mart and other McEmployers with food stamps for their employees. Let McDonalds have to raise their prices so their customers would be paying the workers instead of making taxpayers chip in too.

[101A]

A $15 minimum wage is clearly ridiculous in most parts of the country, but it would be nice to raise it a bit so taxpayers could stop having to subsidize Wal-Mart and other McEmployers with food stamps for their employees. Let McDonalds have to raise their prices so their customers would be paying the workers instead of making taxpayers chip in too.

Fair enough.

The real question is what do we do to get the economy cooking (and not just in DC and NY).

[Spurminator]

Fair enough.

The real question is what do we do to get the economy cooking (and not just in DC and NY).

Fundamentally, get more money in the hands of people who spend it instead of those who save it or send it overseas.

I think the idea of a $15 across-the-board federal minimum wage is lazy marketing-politics, but more can be done to ensure that full-time workers are paid a living wage depending on where they live.

[boutons_deux]

I repeat: if your business depends on paying poverty wages, then you don't have a serious business.

You people have been eating shit for so long, are so accustomed to the shitty job market and its low, stagnant, declining compensation, that you can't see how we got here, and even less imagine realistically how to fight back against the War on Employees.

[Wild Cobra]

cant move beyond a minimum wage job?

liberal solution = increase minimum wage

My solution is to return middle class manufacturing jobs to America.

Stop buying foreign goods for so little.

Tariff the hell out of them to where they cost slightly more than USA equivalents.

[boutons_deux]

btw, NO HELP for the lower, middle classes AT ALL, nothing for the 90%, because the Repugs will obstruct ALL progress, while enriching/protecting BigCorp/VRWC/1%.

If Ryan is elected, he will make sure the above will happen, and worse.

[pgardn]

btw, NO HELP for the lower, middle classes AT ALL, nothing for the 90%, because the Repugs will obstruct ALL progress, while enriching/protecting BigCorp/VRWC/1%.

If Ryan is elected, he will make sure the above will happen, and worse.

And who is the Republican you want as Speaker?

[sickdsm]

I've been considering looking into a h2a? For next year. I've ran through a at least a few different guys the last few falls for seasonal farm labor. $17 in a rural area is a lot of money. I can't keep someone that wants to put the time in. All in a truck/ tractor with A/'c nice can. The people around here asking for jobs are the ones that are minimum wage material. Some of those do have a four year degree also.

[Wild Cobra]

btw, NO HELP for the lower, middle classes AT ALL, nothing for the 90%, because the Repugs will obstruct ALL progress, while enriching/protecting BigCorp/VRWC/1%.

If Ryan is elected, he will make sure the above will happen, and worse.

Both parties suck. Why don't you realize the democrats are probably worse? Their tax and regulation mantra scares good paying jobs off shore.

[angrydude]

Two thoughts.

The real economy (not the wall street one) is still shit despite the "recovery," and it has nothing to do with republicans or democrats but our central banking overlords who rule no matter who is in power.


“They’re saying that because of the cost of labor and the operating costs they can’t afford to give anyone any raises, but I don’t quite believe that,” Kemp said.


The guy in the article seems to think there's this magical pot of gold his boss has. The left is all about "science" when it comes to everything but economics and math.

[sickdsm]

17bucks is alot of money, thats like what entry level office workers get paid per hour....

hence down here farm labor work is around that price legally, cash in hand is around 10bucks per hour or depending how many kilos of shit u can pull into the docks and you be counting all the way to the bank.......seriously those type of jobs, u can clear easy 40-50k cash in hand a year easy if ur very good at that type of manual labor farm work...aka fruit picking...

If I don't go the route of a south African ( seems that is the route some guys are going around here) I'm going to do $20-$25/hr. With that I plan on just pulling away from some other business with a long established employee. One guy we had this year I let him go after 3 weeks. We provide food , fridge is always stocked, let him use my pickup, etc. It's always easier to get someone to work in am environment where they are around co workers all day. I offer help to anyone if they want to get a CDL. no cdl is required for farm use though. I would do full time but not without part time first.

[sickdsm]

The guy I let go started showing up whenever even though he was talking my pickup home ever y night. Fired him after he showed up at noon and ran my pickup through a fence. Blamed it on a turkey. Found out later he was borrowing my pickup out and one time he stopped with the semi to get a 6 pack. I don't have compassion for any healthy person that can't get out of minimum wage.

[RandomGuy]

It's actually completely up to the owner of the business. I don't fear my employees leaving for better pay, frankly - the job market is that week. It took a while to get to the point where I COULD give raises (the downturn, and then Obamacare-my business is in health insurance), but now we have given global raises to our employees. Felt bad we couldn't for so long. (I am still at '07 wage level, btw; hoping to increase my salary in the next year).

But employers who don't feel that guilt or responsibility don't have to give raises; the market just isn't there.

Minimum wage increase is only a temporary fix; it would probably suppress the market - minimum wage, although higher, would still suck and those people would be even MORE stuck. $15 an hour would, frankly, bump up against some of my lower paid employees - all of a sudden they would be comparable in pay to a burger flipper. Don't know how that dynamic would work. If they all demanded more money to not be equivalent, and I STILL want a raise myself? Maybe outsourcing to India becomes more attractive.

... and that is a tragedy of the commons. A collective series of individual decisions that make sense to the individual, but are economically self-defeating for the whole.

What would happen if every employer in the US suddenly gave all their workers an across the board 5% increase.

Think velocity of money.

[RandomGuy]

Both parties suck. Why don't you realize the democrats are probably worse? Their tax and regulation mantra scares good paying jobs off shore.

Sorry, but solid regulatory schemes, and reliable business environments tend to be attractive to business. Business just needs predictable ground rules, that's it.

Anything is better than the Republican crazy-mobile at this point.

[RandomGuy]

cant move beyond a minimum wage job?

liberal solution = increase minimum wage

At a minimum.

But since you brought up what "liberal solutions" are, here is what they actually look like when one moves beyond cartoonish oversimplifications as Wild Cobra is so fond of:


In a highly competitive global economy, we need the best-educated workforce in the world. It is insane and counter-productive to the best interests of our country and our future, that hundreds of thousands of bright young people cannot afford to go to college, and that millions of others leave school with a mountain of debt that burdens them for decades. That shortsighted path to the future must end.

As President, Bernie Sanders will fight to make sure that every American who studies hard in school can go to college regardless of how much money their parents make and without going deeply into debt.
MAKE TUITION FREE AT PUBLIC COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.
STOP THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FROM MAKING A PROFIT ON STUDENT LOANS.
SUBSTANTIALLY CUT STUDENT LOAN INTEREST RATES.
ALLOW STUDENTS TO USE NEED-BASED FINANCIAL AID AND WORK STUDY PROGRAMS TO MAKE COLLEGE DEBT FREE.
FULLY PAID FOR BY IMPOSING A TAX ON WALL STREET SPECULATORS

The cost of this plan is fully paid for by imposing a tax of a fraction of a percent on Wall Street speculators who nearly destroyed the economy seven years ago. More than 1,000 economists have endorsed a tax on Wall Street speculation and today some 40 countries throughout the world have imposed a similar tax including Britain, Germany, France, Switzerland, and China. If the taxpayers of this country could bailout Wall Street in 2008, we can make public colleges and universities tuition free and debt free throughout the country.


This is in contract to the conservative solution: nothing. "there is no problem here, look the other way" or maybe "cut taxes on the rich" :lmao

Feel free to post something to the contrary. I have yet to see any real viable ideas or solutions from the GOP that look even remotely like they will help the poor or middle class.

[RandomGuy]

And many of them choose majors that were almost certainly not going to land them a desired job.

True.

Vocational education has suffered a severe decline. There is a demographic exit of baby boomers from the ranks of plumbers electricians and the like retire. The pipeline isn't there to fill those positions.

Wish I could re-find the article on that.

[RandomGuy]

Two thoughts.

The real economy (not the wall street one) is still shit despite the "recovery," and it has nothing to do with republicans or democrats but our central banking overlords who rule no matter who is in power.



The guy in the article seems to think there's this magical pot of gold his boss has. The left is all about "science" when it comes to everything but economics and math.

Nothing magical about the pot of gold. Pay people more and earn a bit less in profit for the month, and raise prices a bit.

Collectively this increases what economists call the "velocity of money".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_of_money

Overall, the massive increase in wages such as that seen at the beginning of the "car" economy, points to a very real phenomena in which actual workers benefit.

As it is, about all we are doing is increasing our gini coefficient. Since most of the economic growth in the US goes to the very few that own most of the equity/debt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

Read a bit more on the economics at the links above.

[spurraider21]

I'm for periodic minimum wage growth that coincides with inflation. Iirc minimum wage hikes have lagged behind inflation, and that's no good. I don't think I sudden hike to a national $15 will be healthy.

I think the bigger issue is making college education more accessible and affordable. However, dumping money into it isn't going to help. The university system of budgets and spending are broken. Just look at UCLA's tuition figures from 2000 to now. There needs to be a mass scale audit because colleges are getting away with theft.

[boutons_deux]

the minimum wage is a poverty wage, so taxpayers have to assist minimum wage workers with food stamps, healthcare, etc, etc.

So You People rightwingnuts support not touching minimum wage, only indexing it to inflation, so as to keep 10Ms of people in poverty and on public assistance.

Taxpayer assistance to poverty wage works subsidizes the profits of businesses who pay poverty wages, and of those businesses' investors.

[DMX7]

I think the bigger issue is making college education more accessible and affordable.

But the more people that decide they want to go to college, the more colleges can theoretically get away with charging. Also, so many colleges have gotten into a non-academic facilities arms race. There are schools spending tens and hundreds of millions of dollars on lavish recreation centers, dorms and general hang-outs.

And don't get me started on (non-vocational) for-profit schools...

[DMX7]

I think the bigger issue is making college education more accessible and affordable.

But the more people that decide they want to go to college, the more colleges can theoretically get away with charging. Also, so many colleges have gotten into a non-academic facilities arms race. There are schools spending tens and hundreds of millions of dollars on lavish recreation centers, dorms and general hang-outs.

And don't get me started on (non-vocational) for-profit schools...

[boutons_deux]

More Than Half of All Americans Make Under 30,000 Dollars a Year According to a Shocking New Report

The federal poverty level for a family of five is $28,410, and yet almost 40 percent of all American workers do not even bring in $20,000 a year.

If you worked a full-time job at $10 an hour all year long with two weeks off, you would make approximately $20,000. This should tell you something about the quality of the jobs that our economy is producing at this point.

And of course [the numbers in the SSA report] are only for those that are actually working. As I discussed just recently, there are 7.9 million working age Americans that are “officially unemployed” right now and another 94.7 million working age Americans that are considered to be “not in the labor force”. When you add those two numbers together, you get a grand total of 102.6 million working age Americans that do not have a job right now.


http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/more_than_half_of_all_americans_make_under_30000_d ollars_a_year_20151027?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+Truthdig+Truthdig%253A+Dril ling+Beneath+the+Headlines

[tlongII]

Nothing magical about the pot of gold. Pay people more and earn a bit less in profit for the month, and raise prices a bit.

Collectively this increases what economists call the "velocity of money".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_of_money

Overall, the massive increase in wages such as that seen at the beginning of the "car" economy, points to a very real phenomena in which actual workers benefit.

As it is, about all we are doing is increasing our gini coefficient. Since most of the economic growth in the US goes to the very few that own most of the equity/debt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient

Read a bit more on the economics at the links above.

I disagree. The outcome of your scenario would be inflation imo.

[101A]

MAKE TUITION FREE AT PUBLIC COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

Do you not fore-see any downstream complications with this?

EVERYONE gets a shot at free college - as long as they can get into a public college? MANY of those have completely relaxed entrance standards - meaning ALL applicants get in....is everyone college material? Does every job require it?

"College" becomes grades 13 - 16

NOW if Bernie puts a cap on entrance, like in, say, NORWAY or Germany, so only the best students get a ride? Then it's worth considering; otherwise, the bloat, and explosive cost growth involved with this? Impossible...add to that that a "College" education becomes a piece of paper, and not an actual education because NO ONE will flunk out, and the universities won't want to give up that money pipeline?

Not to mention the end of trade schools and sub-elite private universities...really hard to compete with "Free".

The Rich? Oh they'll do fine. While the public universities get bogged down educating "Everyone"; the Rich continue to send their kids to Ivy League and similar schools. They get a fantastic education, and have less competition from the Riff Raff....

I could support Bernie simply for wanting to break up the Big Banks - he's the only candidate saying that as far as I know. But this policy suggestion of free public 4 year college is either a ploy to pick up millennial and limousine liberal support, with no real expectation of passing, OR he's just that ignorant and short sighted. Either way, don't want him as president.

[101A]

More Than Half of All Americans Make Under 30,000 Dollars a Year According to a Shocking New Report

The federal poverty level for a family of five is $28,410, and yet almost 40 percent of all American workers do not even bring in $20,000 a year.

If you worked a full-time job at $10 an hour all year long with two weeks off, you would make approximately $20,000. This should tell you something about the quality of the jobs that our economy is producing at this point.

And of course [the numbers in the SSA report] are only for those that are actually working. As I discussed just recently, there are 7.9 million working age Americans that are “officially unemployed” right now and another 94.7 million working age Americans that are considered to be “not in the labor force”. When you add those two numbers together, you get a grand total of 102.6 million working age Americans that do not have a job right now.


http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/more_than_half_of_all_americans_make_under_30000_d ollars_a_year_20151027?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%253A+Truthdig+Truthdig%253A+Dril ling+Beneath+the+Headlines



Family != Worker

Three card Monty.

[spurraider21]

But the more people that decide they want to go to college, the more colleges can theoretically get away with charging. Also, so many colleges have gotten into a non-academic facilities arms race. There are schools spending tens and hundreds of millions of dollars on lavish recreation centers, dorms and general hang-outs.

And don't get me started on (non-vocational) for-profit schools...
Precisely why there needs to be a massive audit. It's going to need a systemic overhaul, not just simple budget increases

[boutons_deux]

"need a systemic overhaul"

... like every suggestion in this thread, not gonna happen.

VRWC/Repugs have so effectively trashed, lied about public schools, teachers (red states have laid off 100Ks of teachers to kill unions and teacher contributions), teacher unions, NEA for purely political and financial reasons that it's now false "common knowledge" that public schools suck.

Even "blue" Los Angeles is proposing to convert 50% of its schools to charters, while charter schools, financed by taxpayers, have been shown to be mostly scams with equal or worse results that public schools, with no oversight and $100Ms simly disappeared.

America is fucked and unfuckable. The VRWC/Repugs/ALEX/USCoC/1%/BigFinance are much bigger risks to USA than all the Muslim terrorists combined

[boutons_deux]

Arne Duncan just gave away $150M to charter schools as he left office, saying how wonderful they are, deny the FACTS of how bad charter schools are.

My guess is that Duncan shows up next somewhere in the charter school business.

[spurraider21]

http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/5049fdefecad04a361000008/throwing-money.gif

[Wild Cobra]

the minimum wage is a poverty wage, so taxpayers have to assist minimum wage workers with food stamps, healthcare, etc, etc.

So You People rightwingnuts support not touching minimum wage, only indexing it to inflation, so as to keep 10Ms of people in poverty and on public assistance.

Taxpayer assistance to poverty wage works subsidizes the profits of businesses who pay poverty wages, and of those businesses' investors.





The problem isn't minimum wage. The problem is what causes people with job experience being forced into minimum wage jobs.

I blame, primarily our manufacturing leaving the USA.

Stop buying made in China, made in Indonesia, Cambodia, etc.

Shop for "Made in the USA" products, and pit Americans back to work by supporting their jobs.

Our manufacturing leaves the USA because it is more profitable for them to go overseas. I contend our tax structure is a very significant reason for this.

[boutons_deux]

The problem isn't minimum wage. The problem is what causes people with job experience being forced into minimum wage jobs.


The problem IS that minimum and 25% above is A POVERTY WAGE, requiring taxpayers to subsidize poverty, rather than employers to pay a non-poverty wage.

The manufacturing industry was destroyed because that's what BigCorp, aided by Repugs/VRWC wanted to destroy, by passing all kinds of globalization shit for the past 30 years.

USA BigCorp pays a smaller %age of national tax revenue than do corporations in other industrial countries, and much lower than USA BigCorp has paid in the past.

You're blindly wrong on every single point, as always.

[RandomGuy]

I disagree. The outcome of your scenario would be inflation imo.

Good. We need some.

[RandomGuy]

The problem isn't minimum wage. The problem is what causes people with job experience being forced into minimum wage jobs.

I blame, primarily our manufacturing leaving the USA.

Stop buying made in China, made in Indonesia, Cambodia, etc.

Shop for "Made in the USA" products, and pit Americans back to work by supporting their jobs.

Our manufacturing leaves the USA because it is more profitable for them to go overseas. I contend our tax structure is a very significant reason for this.

Kerbal space program is one of the coolest games out there, IMO. Wish I had more time to play it.

[RandomGuy]

Do you not fore-see any downstream complications with this?

EVERYONE gets a shot at free college - as long as they can get into a public college? MANY of those have completely relaxed entrance standards - meaning ALL applicants get in....is everyone college material? Does every job require it?

"College" becomes grades 13 - 16

NOW if Bernie puts a cap on entrance, like in, say, NORWAY or Germany, so only the best students get a ride? Then it's worth considering; otherwise, the bloat, and explosive cost growth involved with this? Impossible...add to that that a "College" education becomes a piece of paper, and not an actual education because NO ONE will flunk out, and the universities won't want to give up that money pipeline?

Not to mention the end of trade schools and sub-elite private universities...really hard to compete with "Free".

The Rich? Oh they'll do fine. While the public universities get bogged down educating "Everyone"; the Rich continue to send their kids to Ivy League and similar schools. They get a fantastic education, and have less competition from the Riff Raff....

I could support Bernie simply for wanting to break up the Big Banks - he's the only candidate saying that as far as I know. But this policy suggestion of free public 4 year college is either a ploy to pick up millennial and limousine liberal support, with no real expectation of passing, OR he's just that ignorant and short sighted. Either way, don't want him as president.

I see a whole lot of "ifs" there. Any data to support the "ifs"? We already have explosive cost growth. That is part of the problem. The other part is we need good trade schools to absorb the people who don't really need to go to school. No one, and I mean no one, says we should relax standards to do all this.

I can readily outline the cost of doing nothing at the moment, which is to dump a massive burden of debt on young people, as we have continued to do.


According to the Federal Reserve Bank of New York, outstanding student loan debt in the United States lies between $902 Billion and $1 Trillion with around $864 Billion in Federal student loan debt. As of Quarter 1 in 2012, the average student loan balance for all age groups is $24,301.

Servicing that debt means these kids are not buying things. That places an enormous drag on our economy.

[tlongII]

Good. We need some.

No we don't. Why would you think that?

[Wild Cobra]

Kerbal space program is one of the coolest games out there, IMO. Wish I had more time to play it.

I started a few albums:

http://planarizer.imgur.com/

[Wild Cobra]

No we don't. Why would you think that?
To balance our currency. Make USA goods cheaper to sell globally, and imports more expensive to buy.

Artificially holding down inflation may doom us.

[Wild Cobra]

Kerbal space program is one of the coolest games out there, IMO. Wish I had more time to play it.

Check this one out:

http://imgur.com/a/ZvlLf

[101A]

I see a whole lot of "ifs" there. Any data to support the "ifs"?

Only one "If":


NOW if Bernie puts a cap on entrance, like in, say, NORWAY or Germany, so only the best students get a ride?

Data? Bernie calls it the "College for Everyone" plan, so I'm thinking everyone includes, well, everyone...so it's not really an if, is it?


We already have explosive cost growth. That is part of the problem.

I was referring to the growth that inevitably accompanies a new Federal Program; not the already out of control higher education inflation - Bernie's plan doesn't control cost, as far as I can tell, it just shifts it (and increases it due to "Everyone" now going)


The other part is we need good trade schools to absorb the people who don't really need to go to school.

Again, how are trade schools (or colleges that give associate degrees for that matter) supposed to compete with Free 4 year public universities?


No one, and I mean no one, says we should relax standards to do all this.

Don't need to, MANY 4 year public universities are already "Non-Selective", meaning everyone can already get in (if they can pay).


I can readily outline the cost of doing nothing at the moment, which is to dump a massive burden of debt on young people, as we have continued to do.

Fine, but Bernie's solution may fix THAT problem, but will create a ton more - most, as obvious as they are, are invisible to a large swath of society. Liberals belief in government as the solution for everything is appearing more and more like fundamentalists view of creation. Pure Faith. Belief without evidence.


Servicing that debt means these kids are not buying things. That places an enormous drag on our economy.

Why is that debt different from any other? House, car loan, credit cards???? I don't get the distinction.

[RandomGuy]

No we don't. Why would you think that?

Ask just about anyone responsible for earning returns on investments.

[tlongII]

Ask just about anyone responsible for earning returns on investments.

Baloney. The key is to be able to purchase more goods.

[boutons_deux]

San Marcos says new businesses have to pay $15/hour

San Marcos City Council unanimously passed a resolution requiring incoming businesses pay employees $15/hour in order to receive job incentives.

Incentives include rebates, tax breaks, grants and benefits provided by the city.

Gabriel Anaya, general manager of Epic Piping, says the Baton Rouge, La.-based company most likely would not have moved to San Marcos in 2015 without the tax incentives. They currently have 248 employees with plans to expand to 600 employees by the end of 2016.
"(San Marcos) provides us with wonderful tax incentives, training grants, training services, grant money with Austin Community College," Anaya said.

The city also cover training expenses for those new to the industry, and offer raise and profit-sharing opportunities for employees. Epic Piping starts all employees at $16.50/hour.

"You want to keep that talent, you need to pay properly. What I used to say, if you pay bananas, you get monkeys," Anaya said.

While Epic Piping is committed to paying above the threshold, some are concerned the policy will scare off potential businesses. But Councilman Scott Gregson, who helped draft the rule, said the policy only dictates incentives.

"This is a family living wage. And that’s that dollar amount that we viewed can provide somebody with a roof over their head, food on the table, money in the rainy day fund," Gregson said.

Businesses who don't want to pay the required $15/hour are still welcome in San Marcos. They just won't receive any tax incentives or benefits.

http://www.kvue.com/story/news/local/hays-county/2016/02/07/san-marcos-says-new-businesses-have-pay-15hour/79846874/

This is bad because the incentives are coming out of taxpayers funds, which no different from eg Walmart employees getting public assistance.

Minimum wage of $25/hour should be exclusively on the employer and the employees not need public assistance.

In any case, San Marcos is an experiment to watch.

No doubt Texian Repugs will be shitting all over San Marcos (while TX gives away $10Bs of taxpayer funds in corporate welfare)

[baseline bum]

Did you just say you want a $25 per hour minimum wage?

[boutons_deux]

Did you just say you want a $25 per hour minimum wage?

yep, arrive at $25/hour over 10 years, and indexed to inflation and region.

End corporate welfare of taxpayers topping up poverty wages.

If your business depends on poverty wages and corporate welfare, then fuck your business plan.

[baseline bum]

Why not $75 an hour?

[boutons_deux]

Why not $75 an hour?

that's not needed to lift people out of poverty and off public assistance.

[baseline bum]

Holy shit. $25 an hour times 40 hours a week times 50 weeks a year (I'm assuming a two week vacation) comes out to $50,000 a year. So boutons thinks Walmart cashiers and McDonalds fry cooks should make basically the US median household income? :lmao

[boutons_deux]

Holy shit. $25 an hour times 40 hours a week times 50 weeks a year (I'm assuming a two week vacation) comes out to $50,000 a year. So boutons thinks Walmart cashiers and McDonalds fry cooks should make basically the US median household income? :lmao

yep, why not?

Why do taxpayers should pay corporate welfare so BigCorp can pay poverty wages?

[baseline bum]

yep, why not?

Why do taxpayers should pay corporate welfare so BigCorp can pay poverty wages?

What do poverty wages have to do with your assertion that fry cooks should make middle class money?

[boutons_deux]

What do poverty wages have to do with your assertion that fry cooks should make middle class money?

EVERYTHING.

If the employer's business plan's salaries require poverty wages and taxpayer subsidies, then the business is fucked.

Fed govt pushing salaries up from the bottom pushed up all the salaries above the bottom.

Real household income has been essentially flat since St Ronnie the Diseased Fool was elected, while, eg, health insurance, care and higher education real costs have skyrocketed.

What's your suggestion for recovering 35 years of suppressed compensation?

[baseline bum]

EVERYTHING.

If the employer's business plan's salaries require poverty wages and taxpayer subsidies, then the business is fucked.

Fed govt pushing salaries up from the bottom pushed up all the salaries above the bottom.

Real household income has been essentially flat since St Ronnie the Diseased Fool was elected, while, eg, health insurance, care and higher education real costs have skyrocketed.

What's your suggestion for recovering 35 years of suppressed compensation?

Every full time worker in America makes at least $50,000 a year is your suggestion? :lmao

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Every full time worker in America makes at least $50,000 a year is your suggestion? :lmao

As opposed to your thinly veiled social darwinism?

[baseline bum]

As opposed to your thinly veiled social darwinism?

Where are you getting that from? I'm all for a significant bump to a stagnant minimum wage but where is the money coming from for every household to be middle class or upper middle class like boutons thinks is feasible?

[boutons_deux]

Every full time worker in America makes at least $50,000 a year is your suggestion? :lmao

why not? really, why the fuck not? you're satisfied with the fucked American 99%, and have no vision of what it should be.

[baseline bum]

why not? really, why the fuck not? you're satisfied with the fucked American 99%, and have no vision of what it should be.

I'm not satisfied with an America that shits on the poor just because I don't think it's possible for every household to be at the borderline of upper middle class.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not satisfied with an America that shits on the poor just because I don't think it's possible for every household to be at the borderline of upper middle class.

That's fair and I have to remember that you are talking with boutox. What I claimed earlier was unfair. I will just say that upper middle class starts at about twice that much. $1k a week isn't what it used to be.

Personally, I think they should evaluate it by total payroll and quit giving execs 9 and 10 figure bonuses and the like but instead divide more equitable. There should be stratification as it motivates people and ultimately people desire that but not to this degree of inequality.

Executive structures are changing and there is a lot of pushback.

[baseline bum]

Personally, I think they should evaluate it by total payroll and quit giving execs 9 and 10 figure bonuses and the like but instead divide more equitable. There should be stratification as it motivates people and ultimately people desire that but not to this degree of inequality.

Executive structures are changing and there is a lot of pushback.

Yeah, inequality is a good thing for an economy, but not the level of crushing inequality like in this one. I find it unreal that people are for keeping minimum wage so low so that everyone pays the wages of say fast food workers through public assistance instead of making McDonalds charge the real cost of the food and its preparation so that it alone pays its workers.

[101A]

why not? really, why the fuck not? you're satisfied with the fucked American 99%, and have no vision of what it should be.

Fuck it, I'm for the $25/hr minimum; my boy the paper carrier - $25/hr. My daughter who works part time at a convenience store: $25/hr, and my son - E4 in the Navy - $25/Hr.; Now, they will all be within a few dollar's of wife's hourly income (Biochemistry Professor - $80K/Yr., but works 80 hour weeks); but with all that, it won't matter that I have to close my business and put my 20 employees out of work - because at that price it costs me several hundred grand more than I get in revenue each year to keep the doors open. Oh well, I'm sure there will be plenty of work for them other places because no other small businesses will be go out of business with a $25 minimum wage. And I'm sure those people currently making 4 times the minimum will have NO problem with only making 10% over the minimum after the increase also, right B? They won't want raises or anything. Go to school, learn a trade, make $.20 more an hour than a paperboy? Sign me UP!!!

[baseline bum]

Fuck it, I'm for the $25/hr minimum; my boy the paper carrier - $25/hr. My daughter who works part time at a convenience store: $25/hr, and my son - E4 in the Navy - $25/Hr.; Now, they will all be within a few dollar's of wife's hourly income (Biochemistry Professor - $80K/Yr., but works 80 hour weeks); but with all that, it won't matter that I have to close my business and put my 20 employees out of work - because at that price it costs me several hundred grand more than I get in revenue each year to keep the doors open. Oh well, I'm sure there will be plenty of work for them other places because no other small businesses will be go out of business with a $25 minimum wage. And I'm sure those people currently making 4 times the minimum will have NO problem with only making 10% over the minimum after the increase also, right B? They won't want raises or anything. Go to school, learn a trade, make $.20 more an hour than a paperboy? Sign me UP!!!

I still like my $75 an hour suggestion better. You guys can retire on your son's paperboy money.

[101A]

Yeah, inequality is a good thing for an economy, but not the level of crushing inequality like in this one. I find it unreal that people are for keeping minimum wage so low so that everyone pays the wages of say fast food workers through public assistance instead of making McDonalds charge the real cost of the food and its preparation so that it alone pays its workers.

One of the problems of increasing the minimum wage is you have to increase the wages of everyone when it happens; it's simple human nature. The problem isn't what the government sets the wage at, the problem is that there are not enough jobs left that are valuable enough. Manufacturing is the obvious one, but productivity increases have decreased the number of jobs in just about every sector. Solid, middle income jobs are becoming more and more rare - and you can't just magically make low income jobs more valuable, they are what they are. I honestly don't know where to start with a solution, but economic controls from on high rarely, if ever, work, or turn out as expected.

[101A]

I still like my $75 an hour suggestion better. You guys can retire on your son's paperboy money.

Of course, not sure how many people will subscribe when it costs $200/month?

[101A]

I still like my $75 an hour suggestion better. You guys can retire on your son's paperboy money.

and lol.

[Winehole23]

if a living wage is ruled out, how do you level the playing field so it isn't free foxes in a free henhouse?

not rhetorical. how do you do it?

globalization is a race to the bottom. do we want to be a super-Mexico or super-Brazil?

[boutons_deux]

"One of the problems of increasing the minimum wage is you have to increase the wages of everyone when it happens;"

yep, that's the plan. Why organize a society where 40M+ people are on govt assistance, short, ugly, brutal lives? The American Dream

"not enough jobs left that are valuable enough."

how about the value, dignity of people's lives?

"economic controls from on high rarely, if ever, work, or turn out as expected"

raising the minimum, over 100s of studies, has shown to have little or no effect on employment, but has huge effect on the recipients of the wages, esp when the increase is significant and not up by +$2/hour.

obviously, the lack of govt intervention has allowed capitalists to fuck over labor, egregiously, gratuitously pile up $Bs of unspendable capital, while impoverishing 100Ms.

govt is the ONLY solution with enough power reduce inequality, which won't solve itself.

We're RADICALLY fucked, and need Bernie-style RADICAL policies (which are just common sense) to unfuck us.

Hillary's incrementalism is sickening, she is, as a 0.1%er, not gonna fix shit.

And the Repugs? :lol they will, see all their budget plans, make it horribly worse, just as they have for the past 40 years.

[boutons_deux]

How We Can Save $17 Billion in Public Assistance—Annually

Want to know the best way to find savings in government assistance programs? Here’s a hint—it’s not by cutting nutrition assistance (http://talkpoverty.org/2016/02/12/thousands-americans-face-hunger-due-loss-snap/) to working people who are struggling.

It’s by paying them fairly for their labor.

A new report from the Economic Policy Institute indicates that raising the federal minimum wage to $12 by 2020 would lift wages for more than 35 million workers nationwide (http://www.epi.org/publication/raising-the-minimum-wage-to-12-by-2020-would-lift-wages-for-35-million-american-workers/) and generate about $17 billion annually in savings to government assistance programs.

This report shouldn’t come as a surprise. In contrast to the stereotypes and lies about people with low incomes, the reality is that a majority of public assistance recipients (http://www.epi.org/publication/wages-and-transfers/) either have a job or have an immediate family member who is working. In fact,

41.2 million working Americans—or 30 percent of the workforce—receive means-tested public assistance. Nearly half of them work full-time.

A majority (53 percent) of workers earning $12.16 per hour or less—or the bottom 30 percent of wage earners—rely on public assistance. As wages go down, the percentage of workers relying on public assistance gets higher: 60 percent of workers earning less than $7.42—only slightly higher than the $7.25 federal minimum wage—receive some form of means-tested public assistance.

Overall, 70 percent of the benefits in programs meant to aid non-elderly low-income households—programs like food stamps, Medicaid, and the Earned Income Tax Credits—go to working families.

taxpayers are effectively subsidizing wealthy companies to cover the gap between what workers earn on the job and what they need to support themselves and their families.

the minimum wage. today it’s worth 24 percent less than in 1968, adjusted for inflation.

raising the wages of the bottom 30 percent of workers by just $1 per hour would result in $5.2 billion in public assistance savings each year. And the $17 billion in annual savings realized by raising the minimum wage to $12 by 2020 could be used to strengthen anti-poverty programs—such as expanding the Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) to childless adults (http://talkpoverty.org/2015/06/10/solutions-economic-inequality/#Melissa%20Boteach), or improving access to childcare and preschool (http://withinreachcampaign.org/) for children from low- and moderate-income families, or make long-overdue investments in infrastructure (http://www.epi.org/pay-agenda/).

http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/02/18/how-we-can-save-17-billion-public-assistance-annually (http://www.commondreams.org/views/2016/02/18/how-we-can-save-17-billion-public-assistance-annually)

If your business depends on paying, must pay poverty wages, your business sucks, it's not viable.

[RandomGuy]

One of the problems of increasing the minimum wage is you have to increase the wages of everyone when it happens; it's simple human nature. The problem isn't what the government sets the wage at, the problem is that there are not enough jobs left that are valuable enough. Manufacturing is the obvious one, but productivity increases have decreased the number of jobs in just about every sector. Solid, middle income jobs are becoming more and more rare - and you can't just magically make low income jobs more valuable, they are what they are. I honestly don't know where to start with a solution, but economic controls from on high rarely, if ever, work, or turn out as expected.

Increasing everyones wages is not a problem. It is a solution to the economic stagnation and outright wage decline of middle and lower income wage earners.

All you are seeing here is the immediate effect of such a thing.

If more people demanded, and could pay higher prices for your company's services, your company would end up with more revenue to balance.

[RandomGuy]

taxpayers are effectively subsidizing wealthy companies to cover the gap between what workers earn on the job and what they need to support themselves and their families.

This.

[101A]

This.

What about not all that wealthy companies? There is a bottom to the pit. My margins are thin. If all of my clients (businesses) are dealing with having to pay all of their employees more, they aren't going to want to see fee increases from me. I have to actually have money to pay it to my employees. Or I could fire them, and outsource to India (they offer monthly).

[boutons_deux]

What about not all that wealthy companies?

My margins are thin.

If your business depends on paying, must pay poverty wages, your business sucks, it's not viable.

[CosmicCowboy]

boo, what is your business?

[RandomGuy]

What about not all that wealthy companies? There is a bottom to the pit. My margins are thin. If all of my clients (businesses) are dealing with having to pay all of their employees more, they aren't going to want to see fee increases from me. I have to actually have money to pay it to my employees. Or I could fire them, and outsource to India (they offer monthly).

Key is to kick in increases slowly over time. You raise just enough, and everybody else does the same.

Basically creating inflation.

[boutons_deux]

boo, what is your business?

bitch slapping you greedy, sociopathic John Galts

[boutons_deux]

Key is to kick in increases slowly over time. You raise just enough, and everybody else does the same.

Basically creating inflation.

any evidence that raising the minimum wage causes, or contributes to, inflation?

[101A]

If your business depends on paying, must pay poverty wages, your business sucks, it's not viable.


My lowest paid employee makes ~35K; my highest is in the low six figures; 17 spread between those extremes. If you were keeping up, you would know that the discussion that when the minimum wage raises, every job becomes more expensive - that employee making 35K doesn't all of a sudden want to make minimum again, after all - nor should she.

[101A]

boo, what is your business?

I wouldn't do it, just pointing out what options (temptations) are out there. Employee Benefits; mostly clerical work.

[101A]

Key is to kick in increases slowly over time. You raise just enough, and everybody else does the same.

Basically creating inflation.

A doubling of the minimum wage (or tripling as some have suggested) makes "slowly over time" less viable.

[boutons_deux]

"every job becomes more expensive"

you are finally "keeping up" with the strategy of enriching everybody (below the top 5%), whose salaries have been suppressed for 40+ years, by pushing pay up from the bottom.

My suggestion is Federal minimum wage $25/hour in 2025, starting with $15/hr immediately, all indexed to inflation and regional COL.

[101A]

"every job becomes more expensive"

you are finally "keeping up" with the strategy of enriching everybody (below the top 5%), whose salaries have been suppressed for 40+ years, by pushing pay up from the bottom.

My suggestion is Federal minimum wage $25/hour in 2025, starting with $15/hr immediately, all indexed to inflation and regional COL.





RG has pointed out that the result of this is inflation. That being the case, what's the point. The value of a person's work is its value, regardless of what number you attach to it. That value is only worth so much in purchasing power. The only way to escape this truism, and the market adjusting for whatever artificial forces are applied, is to ditch the markets altogether. Point to the Netherlands, maybe? They still have a "market" economy, but with a larger safety net, a higher minimum wage, right? Poverty rate there is roughly equivalent as it is here ~14%. Weird.

[101A]

Canada has a lower poverty rate (9.6%), but they have about a $10 minimum wage. Maybe that's the sweet spot?

[101A]

The highest the minimum wage has ever been in this country (adjusted) was 1968. Poverty level then? 12.8% Poverty level in 2006, before the Great Recession? 12.3%.

Poverty level and the minimum wage, as far as I can tell, are not closely related.

However, people living in poverty have more things than they used to.

http://www.russellsage.org/research/chartbook/poverty-rates-1968-1990-and-2006

[RandomGuy]

A doubling of the minimum wage (or tripling as some have suggested) makes "slowly over time" less viable.

Increase 10%-15% per year, doable.

Economy is a moving thing, and can absorb it. Given we are worried about de-flation.

[boutons_deux]

RG has pointed out that the result of this is inflation. That being the case, what's the point. The value of a person's work is its value, regardless of what number you attach to it. That value is only worth so much in purchasing power. The only way to escape this truism, and the market adjusting for whatever artificial forces are applied, is to ditch the markets altogether. Point to the Netherlands, maybe? They still have a "market" economy, but with a larger safety net, a higher minimum wage, right? Poverty rate there is roughly equivalent as it is here ~14%. Weird.

RG has shown the raisiing the minimum causes inflation? even contributes to inflation?

So you are all for taxpayers subsidizing employers who pay shitty incomes, subsidizing so people can live with a minimum decency (but still a maximum of financial stress)?

[101A]

RG has shown the raisiing the minimum causes inflation? even contributes to inflation?

No. He said it, I take him at his word, considering his background. He has since clarified his answer.


So you are all for taxpayers subsidizing employers who pay shitty incomes, subsidizing so people can live with a minimum decency (but still a maximum of financial stress)?

I did not say that. Strawman.

I would be for government funded skills training (specifically in trades starting at younger than high school graduate) - I would also support subsidized daycare for struggling mothers/parents - could expand the public school system to younger ages to help with that.

I would certainly support more coercion from society to make fathers as responsible (as much as possible) as mothers when unintended pregnancies occur - this could have the added benefit of possibly reducing the number of abortions (could also increase them, now that I think about it).

I would be for people on govt. assistance being able to supplement their income without getting "means" tested off of assistance. A person working should have more money than one not.

Do you want to keep putting me in a box, or would you like to have a discussion.

[ElNono]

What about not all that wealthy companies? There is a bottom to the pit. My margins are thin. If all of my clients (businesses) are dealing with having to pay all of their employees more, they aren't going to want to see fee increases from me. I have to actually have money to pay it to my employees. Or I could fire them, and outsource to India (they offer monthly).

There's no easy solution to this. You will likely have to go to the bolded route regardless, because your competition eventually will and you'll not be able to stay competitive, unless you're offering some sort of plus nobody else can.

You really can't compete with the India/China of the world and their shitty standards of living. Notice too that most of all of those countries are not "free market" either. They manipulate currency like crazy to keep their people down and remain attractive for outsourcing. It's not a fair fight. You will end up offering shittier service, but it will be cheaper and that's the bottom line.

"Globalization" at all costs is something else this country needs to address economically and politically. It's a race to the bottom and it's the every day worker that will get hurt the most (and I say this as a business owner).

[101A]

Increase 10%-15% per year, doable.

Economy is a moving thing, and can absorb it. Given we are worried about de-flation.

What's going on with the economy? Markets OK, unemployment low, but barely better than recession growth? Not rhetorical questions, btw. Serious.

[101A]

There's no easy solution to this. You will likely have to go to the bolded route regardless, because your competition eventually will and you'll not be able to stay competitive, unless you're offering some sort of plus nobody else can.


We are trying, and succeeding, so far.

[boutons_deux]

I did not say that. Strawman.

If you are against raising the minimum wage, then you accept, at least implicitly, taxpayers bailing out minimum wage employers.

what's the point of spending money on training if the grads, many of them w/o HS diploma or with a useless HSD (being still illiterate, innumerate) go into a market where they still face unlivable wages?

btw, the graduation rates at 2-year Alamo colleges group is dismal, like well under 50%.

And many of the grads find their associate degrees and credits are not accepted at even state 4-year colleges.

[101A]

If you are against raising the minimum wage, then you accept, at least implicitly, taxpayers bailing out minimum wage employers.

what's the point of spending money on training if the grads, many of them w/o HS diploma or with a useless HSD (being still illiterate, innumerate) go into a market where they still face unlivable wages?

btw, the graduation rates at 2-year Alamo colleges group is dismal, like well under 50%.

And many of the grads find their associate degrees and credits are not accepted at even state 4-year colleges.

I specifically mentioned trades. I am using Germany (and common sense) as a model. My wife taught at ACCD for a couple of years before we moved to Pa; yeah. No.

I had other suggestions. My point is, work needs to be valuable because it is valuable work. Otherwise were just moving pieces around. We need the economy to grow, not just rearrange. More people need to see a way out and up; handouts, or artificial wage inflation don't do that.

Again, government can (must) have a significant hand in getting this going - but just arbitrarily setting a higher wage isn't going to help the systemic problem that Nono helped spell out. We can't compete with non-skilled, low wage employees overseas, or coming across our borders in terms of low, or no skill, jobs. We need more higher skilled workers with more higher skilled jobs for them to have.

[ElNono]

We are trying, and succeeding, so far.

We do too :toast

[boutons_deux]

"work needs to be valuable because it is valuable work"

People are much more important than fucking shitty work.

The dignity of a liveable salary far outweighs the work itself.

It's on businesses to provide jobs that don't grind people down.

[101A]

"work needs to be valuable because it is valuable work"

People are much more important than fucking shitty work.

The dignity of a liveable salary far outweighs the work itself.

It's on businesses to provide jobs that don't grind people down.




Nobody's stopping you.

Start one.

[RandomGuy]

What's going on with the economy? Markets OK, unemployment low, but barely better than recession growth? Not rhetorical questions, btw. Serious.

We have an aging population driving a lot of current trends.

Spending profiles of retirees tend to be different than that of people in their 40's buying houses/cars etc. Less demand for stuff. Bad for importers/retailers.

That said, we have a current wavelet of millennials coming into the job/labor market. More millenials than boomers now from what I hear. They are pushing back marriage/kids due to financial crisis and general attitude shifts. This will mean tapering off of demand a bit, but the giant sucking sound of boomers exiting the labor market into retirement will help them along, as it has helped me and my fellow gen Xers who are well positioned to step into those choice jobs.

Heard one analyst with some investment firm or other on the radio sum it up:

Slow growth environment will be with us for a long while.

US will limp along doing pretty much ok. Americans are saving more, which is, IMO a good thing. We appear to be collectively paying down debt, and at some point we will have done that to most people's satisfaction, and they will start spending more. Guess 1-5 years or so, then expect consumers to open their wallets, and push growth a bit faster.

We have a flood of FDI incoming as China slows down, which is driving a lot of slowness elsewhere, as they cut back on their commodities binge. This will make capital cheap for US firms.

Americans are not building as many homes as we are having kids, so there is beginning to be a pent-up demand for housing. Great for me, as that is upwards pressure on house prices and I just bought my first house.

Stock market looks to be going sideways for a while, due to a lot of investor uncertainty. Good time to pick up dividend stocks, IMO, something else I am doing this year. :D

Let's see if I missed anything... Europe will benefit overall from the influx of migrants, but that will take a good 5-10 years to fully take shape.

China's fast growth period is behind it. They will have to face the fact that their labor market, while still massive, is shrinking, and their air is killing them, the costs of which are going to unwind and drag that economy down much more than I think many fully appreciate yet.


erg. Probably missed something...

Deadpool movie made back its budget in the opening weekend.... funny movie.

[RandomGuy]

What's going on with the economy? Markets OK, unemployment low, but barely better than recession growth? Not rhetorical questions, btw. Serious.

We have an aging population driving a lot of current trends.

Spending profiles of retirees tend to be different than that of people in their 40's buying houses/cars etc.

That said, we have a current wavelet of millennials coming into the job/labor market.

Heard one analyst with some investment firm or other on the radio sum it up:

Slow growth environment will be with us for a long while.

US will limp along doing pretty much ok. Americans are saving more, which is, IMO a good thing. We appear to be collectively paying down debt, and at some point we will have done that to most people's satisfaction, and they will start spending more.

We have a flood of FDI incoming as China slows down, which is driving a lot of slowness elsewhere, as they cut back on their commodities binge.

Americans are not building as many homes as we are having kids, so there is beginning to be a pent-up demand for housing. Great for me, as that is upwards pressure on house prices and I just bought my first house.

Stock market looks to be going sideways for a while, due to a lot of investor uncertainty. Good time to pick up dividend stocks, IMO, something else I am doing this year. :D

Let's see if I missed anything... Europe will benefit overall from the influx of migrants, but that will take a good 5-10 years to fully take shape.

China's fast growth period is behind it. They will have to face the fact that their labor market, while still massive, is shrinking, and their air is killing them, the costs of which are going to unwind and drag that economy down much more than I think many fully appreciate yet.


erg. Probably missed something...

Deadpool movie made back its budget in the opening weekend.... funny movie.

[RandomGuy]

RG has pointed out that the result of this is inflation. That being the case, what's the point. The value of a person's work is its value, regardless of what number you attach to it. That value is only worth so much in purchasing power. The only way to escape this truism, and the market adjusting for whatever artificial forces are applied, is to ditch the markets altogether. Point to the Netherlands, maybe? They still have a "market" economy, but with a larger safety net, a higher minimum wage, right? Poverty rate there is roughly equivalent as it is here ~14%. Weird.

Depends on how "poverty" is measured and defined.

I would be willing to be being poor in the Netherlands is better than being poor in the US, and their poor are far healthier.

[boutons_deux]

" Americans are saving more, which is, IMO a good thing. We appear to be collectively paying down debt"

bullshit, HH CC debt is $15K: http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-data/average-credit-card-debt-household/

... meaning people are paying high to usurious rates of CC interest to BigFinanace, aka redistribution upwards.

[boutons_deux]

poor in the Netherlands is better than being poor in the US, and their poor are far healthier.

How America's Superrich Are Draining the Poor of a Longer Life Span

http://www.alternet.org/economy/how-americas-superrich-are-draining-poor-longer-life-span

[Winehole23]

lest it be said that wages are too sticky, the gig economy provides downward opportunities:

https://www.workingwa.org/instacart-eighty-cents

[FrostKing]

If you want more money you need to become more attractive to employers. What can you personally offer over the next person? This is usually done by picking up technical knowledge I.E. take courses at the local college and/or get certified

The problem is finding time to do this while still paying bills. Americans make poor decisions - take on car payments, have children when not financially set, get pets. Seriously what is with Americans obsession with dogs.

I worked dead end jobs and it was full of single parents and wannabe high rollers that picked up hours then bought shit then had to get a 2nd job to pay for the shit they bought

Those well off European nations that everyone raves about - they are renters not buyers. To them flexibility is King.

[boutons_deux]

In San Antonio, Uber/Lyft pays drivers $0.60 / mile while some orgs compute TCO as $0.60 and IRS 2019 deductible is $0.54.

So net, taxable income for U/L driving is $0.10 / mile or less, then minus income tax and 2 x SS fee as self-employed.

For rider fare of $10 or less (which about avg for SA), U/L keep minimum of $4 / 40% or more.