What if West is simply "done"?

[spursistan]

Dude has looked every part of it against 2nd stringers of mostly weak opposition...I don't know, but one should give him a couple of more months and see what's going on (mostly on offense)...He's been the Belinelli of Big men for us in the sense that it is an automatic run for the other team..

[afireinside20]

I think its a little too early to say that. He just needs some more time to adjust to our defensive sets. His offense will come soon as well.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's very possible..I thought he would be a nice 4th big that could make open jump shots, which I still believe he could be, but he's suffering more than anybody from the lack of offensive fluidity..

Too early to write him off completely, though..

[TrainOfThought5]

It's very possible..I thought he would be a nice 4th big that could make open jump shots, which I still believe he could be, but he's suffering more than anybody from the lack of offensive fluidity..

Too early to write him off completely, though..

Hes toxic next to Diaw. Boban provides instant rim protection rebounding screens and easy putbacks. Bench West.

[ElNono]

Pop will give him the benefit of the doubt, at least until January... we're just going to have to live with it...

[LakerHater]

he jus needs time to adjust, he'll get there!

[steeledl]

He has had some decent moments. I think he will be okay.... we just have absolutely no chemistry as a team right now. That should come in time.

[DeRozan m8]

He just looks a bit lost out there tbh

[mexicanjunior]

He is done, the longer we give him minutes, the more likely we are a 5-8 seed.

[davidbowie]

Should've been a warning sign when he gave up all that money TBH

Dude is washed!

[KaiRMD1]

We got him for dirt cheap so you're going to get a dirt cheap David West

[Mugen]

:lol ....he's been put in terrible spots by Pop so far + he's just trying to fit in by overpassing....


He'll be fine tbh

[spurtech09]

The whole team looks out of rhythm ......and spurs need another shooter....

[look_at_g_shred]

If the corpse of Dyess can do it :lol

[spurtech09]

He is done, the longer we give him minutes, the more likely we are a 5-8 seed.this...

[keeferob25]

i believe at this stage that West isn't a "spot" minutes guy...he's a rhythm guy that needs consistent minutes. Pop is obviously doing what he normally does and is experimenting but I really do think that it isnt ideal to do with West. He looks lost EVERY SINGLE SECOND he is on the floor. I was hoping Pop would play him extensively against the Knicks. But the season is still just starting so we have time.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

We got him for dirt cheap so you're going to get a dirt cheap David West
My thoughts exactly

[spursistan]

Obviously not going to complain with the way D West fell in our laps..but i honestly thought he would flourish from the get go in reduced role playing next to Manu/Bobo ..the jury is still out, tho..

[TrainOfThought5]

West isnt done. Hes just a terrible fit with The second unit. He actually doesn't play that badly with Timmy. But the second unit relies on so much ball movement and chemistry that David hasn't developed.

[HI-FI]

We got him for dirt cheap so you're going to get a dirt cheap David West
what i was going to say. I think since he took a paycut, he's not going to overexert himself too much, probably not til the end. Can't blame him. I think he'll be fine.

[milkyway21]

Don't blame it on someone who almost has no minutes played. :lol

[objective]

He is a terrible back-up center because he's not a center. Gortat just relaxed near the rim and tossed the ball in right over him. Hell, Bonner is a better center.

The big question is: Will Pop ever give Boban a legit shot at being the back-up center?

Probably not. Pop is the same guy who refused to give the Spanish league MVP a chance for minutes ahead of washed up scrubby bigs because, as the quote goes if I remember right: "It wouldn't be fair" to not give minutes to the bad players who have been in the NBA before.

West gave up a lot of money and also has a sterling reputation for toughness and grit. It just "wouldn't be fair" to him to not let him be terrible in both the regular season and the playoffs.

[bklynspursfan]

5 games in, he's clearly still a little lost on both ends. This time he gets on the bench is probably for him to observe more. Heck, some guys don't learn our system in a year, expecting West to in 5 games is unrealistic.

He'll settle in eventually, it'll just take some time.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

He is a terrible back-up center because he's not a center. Gortat just relaxed near the rim and tossed the ball in right over him. Hell, Bonner is a better center.

The big question is: Will Pop ever give Boban a legit shot at being the back-up center?

Probably not. Pop is the same guy who refused to give the Spanish league MVP a chance for minutes ahead of washed up scrubby bigs because, as the quote goes if I remember right: "It wouldn't be fair" to not give minutes to the bad players who have been in the NBA before.

West gave up a lot of money and also has a sterling reputation for toughness and grit. It just "wouldn't be fair" to him to not let him be terrible in both the regular season and the playoffs.

lol, West is going to save our ass in a playoff game and you are gonna feel real stupid about piling on a guy who is 5 games into a stint with a new team

[weebo]

What the h:lolll do you guys expect so early into the season? It pretty much well known to most anyone who knows anything about the Spurs it takes new additions time before they acclimate themselves to the team.

[objective]

He should play with Duncan or Aldridge. Asking him to be the force down low isn't fair to him.

[TrainOfThought5]

lol, West is going to save our ass in a playoff game and you are gonna feel real stupid about piling on a guy who is 5 games into a stint with a new team

Its more likely that Boban and Butler will save the second unit. But okay

[spurtech09]

Its more likely that Boban and Butler will save the second unit. But okayI would like to see more of Boban...

[Chinook]

He got outplayed by Butler today. That's a warning sign. Pop at least needs to look at Boban. We'll see what happens on 12/15, when guys become tradeable again. The Spurs have the contracts to trade for an MLE player. And there are a couple out there who might be worth the look.

[Blake's Cucktainer]

Porker changed his name to West?

[Kawhitstorm]

He was getting outplayed by Scola last season:lol....the guy is done as an impact player ala David Lee but he's a better option than Bonner. I'm glad he's getting exposed EARLY in the regular season since that will force Pop to play Boban who's a better fit alongside Diaw.

[Mugen]

He got outplayed by Butler today. That's a warning sign. Pop at least needs to look at Boban. We'll see what happens on 12/15, when guys become tradeable again. The Spurs have the contracts to trade for an MLE player. And there are a couple out there who might be worth the look.

Not sure if this is what you're implying but Pop isn't trading West to a lottery team just because he isn't gelling by December tbh....it'd mess with his beloved Uncle persona that he's been trying to cultivate for a while now.....huge dick move after West walked away from 11mil.....

Blaming DWest for how he's looked is prob the dumbest thing Spurfan can do right now....especially when Pop hasn't coached worth a damn since March.

Pop has been an absolute garbage coach for most of the calendar year...but he gets away with it because he's Pop....

[Ditty]

He will be fine :lol, he will be needed in certain matchups especially in the playoffs or foul trouble. Defense has to get better, but needs a rim protector like Duncan or Boban around him though. Still can score.

[SAGirl]

He got outplayed by Butler today. That's a warning sign. Pop at least needs to look at Boban. We'll see what happens on 12/15, when guys become tradeable again. The Spurs have the contracts to trade for an MLE player. And there are a couple out there who might be worth the look.
Who do you have in mind? I am intrigued.

[kobyz]

Like always, i call it from the start but people didnt want to accept it and only now starting to face it...

[Keepin' it real]

what if west is done?

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQJBPAvW2brhz8Zj7GD7DTO4tMtSzzBR iRTdC6ns8Z_c_mqXG0L

[random21]

West just needs time to adjust to the system and court time... Can't expect a guy to look fresh with only playing spot minutes...

[Brazil]

:lol way too soon for this kind of thread


I do believe Spurs are focusing a lot on LMA fitting the system, that's the main work in progress for this team tbh... For now attention is not so much on West also because second unit issue is more on lack of competent back up for Manu (Kyle Anderson :rolleyes)

Also yesterday second unit, West etc was not the issue... Issue was starting 5 and TOVs tbh

[Capt Bringdown]

Meanwhile, this Aussie beast is ripping the league a new one
http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/2968439.png&w=350&h=254

[Chinook]

Not sure if this is what you're implying but Pop isn't trading West to a lottery team just because he isn't gelling by December tbh....it'd mess with his beloved Uncle persona that he's been trying to cultivate for a while now.....huge dick move after West walked away from 11mil.....

Blaming DWest for how he's looked is prob the dumbest thing Spurfan can do right now....especially when Pop hasn't coached worth a damn since March.

Pop has been an absolute garbage coach for most of the calendar year...but he gets away with it because he's Pop....

It's not West's "fault" in the sense of he's making mistakes. But he's absolutely overmatched right now. Can Pop help him out a bit by changing schemes and rotations? Yes. But that'll only help so much. Right now, David's been a net-negative.

[dabom]

It's not West's "fault" in the sense of he's making mistakes. But he's absolutely overmatched right now. Can Pop help him out a bit by changing schemes and rotations? Yes. But that'll only help so much. Right now, David's been a net-negative.

Has KA been a net negative?

[CGD]

Watching him live last night, he looks very lost on D. He also needs to catch and shoot more, as opposed to trying to up fake and drive. He's getting the looks within the offense.

Also, Danny needs to let it fly and stop driving as much. There were a few occasions last night where he up faked and drove when he just needed to pull the trigger from 3.

[Raven]

he'll be fine.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

West needs to get into Spurs shape. That's all. Until then, yes, he will be a weak link. I expect in a couple of months we will finally see improvements from West.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Meanwhile, this Aussie beast is ripping the league a new one
http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/2968439.png&w=350&h=254

-20 in 4 1/2 minutes of play the other night. Shit, West isn't even that bad right now.

[daledondale]

he'll be fine.
This. I think he just need time, he can't forget how to play in a few months. He had a good last year in Indiana.

[objective]

He actually had a terrible year in Indiana and pacers fans by and large were thrilled when he surprised everyone by opting out.

On the one hand he was accused of or appeared to be checked out on the season and quit on the team after George was hurt in the summer. That was believed to explain his bad play and demeanor. But there's always the possibility that he found himself finished last year, and all the other things about his demeanor was his reaction to finding out he couldn't perform anymore. Maybe opting out was his way of absolving himself of guilt, for a guy who had talked so tough about not ring chasing, now he couldn't take money he knew he couldn't deserve.

[Fireball]

Somehow it must be possible to get him open for his midrange shot ... we were able to do it when McDyess played here, so I do not know why the PnP does not work with LMA or West ...

[Lostwingman]

Start Aldridge and Diaw, make second unit Timmy and West?

[Hoops Czar]

:lol Those questioning whether West is done obviously didn't watch him play last year. His offense will improve over time but his defense will have no redeeming qualities. He will be a total liability on that end of the court.

[DarrinS]

Start Aldridge and Diaw, make second unit Timmy and West?

Someone else mentioned this idea a few days back. Definitely beats Diaw/West on the floor together.

[Bartleby]

:lol Those questioning whether West is done obviously didn't watch him play last year. His offense will improve over time but his defense will have no redeeming qualities. He will be a total liability on that end of the court.

And it probably doesn't help that he has spent time guarding centers when Pop goes small. He simply doesn't have the height (or hops) to guard 7 footers.

[TrainOfThought5]

Someone else mentioned this idea a few days back. Definitely beats Diaw/West on the floor together.

I cant Imagine timmy coming off the bench. or Aldridge being willing to play all of those minutes at the 5.

[TD 21]

Not sure if this is what you're implying but Pop isn't trading West to a lottery team just because he isn't gelling by December tbh....it'd mess with his beloved Uncle persona that he's been trying to cultivate for a while now.....huge dick move after West walked away from 11mil.....

Blaming DWest for how he's looked is prob the dumbest thing Spurfan can do right now....especially when Pop hasn't coached worth a damn since March.

Pop has been an absolute garbage coach for most of the calendar year...but he gets away with it because he's Pop....

Yeah, they'll only trade West if he requests it.

Should he, at some point between 12/15 and the trade deadline, they should offer him and Butler (Simmons too, if he's required to match salaries) for Neal and Blair.

The Wizards offered him the MLE, in the hopes that he'd replace Pierce as the veteran leader. They later acquired Dudley to fill that role though, so their interest would probably depend on whether Beal can finally avoid a long term injury and whether Humphries proves over the long haul to be a serviceable stretch four.

[TrainOfThought5]

I can KIND of understand why we might want Neal back (Id rather bring back Ghill.) but why would we ever want Blair back?

[TD 21]

I can KIND of understand why we might want Neal back (Id rather bring back Ghill.) but why would we ever want Blair back?

It's not so much about wanting him, it's about getting a big back in the exchange. He's actually a better fit, since he's a superior rebounder and he's a roller. They could have him and Marjanovic compete for the backup C job.

That's the thing with West: Because he is who he is and did what he did, they're not benching him in perpetuity and they're doubly not for an unproven player. But Blair doesn't have nearly the same clout and didn't give up $10.5M to join them, so they'd have no such qualms. Besides, he hasn't been a rotation player in a year plus anyway, so it's not like it would be new to him this time (if Marjanovic ultimately claimed the job). I actually think he'd be happy to be back.

[Robz4000]

Not sure if this is what you're implying but Pop isn't trading West to a lottery team just because he isn't gelling by December tbh....it'd mess with his beloved Uncle persona that he's been trying to cultivate for a while now.....huge dick move after West walked away from 11mil.....

Blaming DWest for how he's looked is prob the dumbest thing Spurfan can do right now....especially when Pop hasn't coached worth a damn since March.

Pop has been an absolute garbage coach for most of the calendar year...but he gets away with it because he's Pop....

Mostly this tbh, though I loved his coaching job in the first three games.

[Kawhi 5-0]

West has highest FG% on Spurs right now (57%). He's playing smart in that respect (as are Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker).

[maverick1948]

Free Bonner!!!!!!!

[james evans]

it's that he doesn't even look like he's trying. He' doesn't even put a hand up on defense.

[RayTdropout]

craterface pop has barely been playing him it's not on west

[tmtcsc]

Right now West is worth every penny he's getting paid. Let's not forget that the Spurs got him on a deep discount. What is the alternative? He provides veteran experience and toughness. I think its way too early to pull the plug on him and give up. Same thing goes for the starting five. There's no reason to panic and do something hasty like benching anyone from the current line-up. The coaches will see what is working, what needs to be worked on and what just needs to be changed. It's only been 5 regular season games folks. Patience.

[DPG21920]

There is absolutely 0 chance SA trades David West. You just can't do that.

[jon123spurs]

Yup looks done to me.
NOT he looks amazing out there.

[Mr. Body]

He's not for all teams, but he's a super seat player. Once he fits in fully he'll be great.

[DarrinS]

Not done

[Manu-of-steel]

Good game, Mr. West! I see you're slowly getting the hang of it. Expect more dunks and assists from Manu next game.

[YGWHI]

I'm so glad, he deserves a good game like this... :flag:

[Kawhi 5-0]

Great game David West! Player of the game in my opinion. Awesome to see West and Diaw playing well together.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Almost a low rent triple double.

[TheDoctor]

Almost a low rent triple double.
+1

[emanueldavidginobili]

9/6/9 played very unselfish you can tell West and Aldridge are buying into the system and having fun moving the ball

[BillMc]

I'm so glad, he deserves a good game like this... :flag:
:toast

[BillMc]

Great game David West! Player of the game in my opinion. Awesome to see West and Diaw playing well together.


9/6/9 played very unselfish you can tell West and Aldridge are buying into the system and having fun moving the ball

[ceperez]

West moving the ball better now. Glad to see the improvement.

[siraulo23]

He's been playing worse than ayres before the game vs the hornets, no joke. Welcome to the Spurs David West

[freetiago]

His defense is horrible. He had no idea what to do but he wasn't brought here to be a defensive big. He just needs to be part of the bench that blitz the opponents bench to build leads or cut deficits. If he does what he did tonight which is shoot the open pick and pop and find cutters after he gets the ball in the high post with the occasional post up on mismatches then he'll be an extremely effective player.

[kawhidoyoudothistome]

I would like to see his highlights. Hope someone on YT posts them.

[midnightpulp]

As long as Manu stays healthy, that bench is going to be an absolute terror. Only caveat is they lack a defensive SF and some size upfront (unless Boban starts getting more minutes), but they attack you from all angles offensively.

[dweaver99027]

Good showing offensively. Defensively he still has some things to figure out, but no matter what, he can not play C effectively even in stretches. If his midrange is working and he moves the ball like yesterday, he'll be more than worth his min salary.

[Mugen]

As long as Manu stays healthy, that bench is going to be an absolute terror. Only caveat is they lack a defensive SF and some size upfront (unless Boban starts getting more minutes), but they attack you from all angles offensively.

The SF shouldn't be a huge problem (unless Manu gets hurt like you said) and Pop will probably play Danny with that unit in games that matter which makes it an even deadlier lineupe tbh.

[spursistan]

As long as Manu stays healthy, that bench is going to be an absolute terror. Only caveat is they lack a defensive SF and some size upfront (unless Boban starts getting more minutes), but they attack you from all angles offensively.
Where would this team be without this rejuvenated Ginobili, tbh?:lol not only the bench, it seems we are going to need him to bail out some guy like it is 2005 all over again..

[Harry Callahan]

Was at the game last night - unbelievable 3rd quarter into the 4th.

West was really working to keep the ball moving on offense and he looked a lot more comfortable.

The bench bailed out the starters AGAIN for the most part.

[Harry Callahan]

Where would this team be without this rejuvenated Ginobili, tbh?:lol not only the bench, it seems we are going to need him to bail out some guy like it is 2005 all over again..

Kobester could only wish to be as effective as Manu Ginobili is right now at 38 years old. Manu can't go full bore for 30-35 minutes like he used to, but as an off the bench player he is the guy that makes the Spurs so hard to defend as he gets the ball moving all over the court and juices up his teammates. He was simply special out there last night.

Most of the so-called "Star" guards of today (Curry, Hardin, Paul) will not have anywhere close to the long term staying power of Manu. They may have better individual seasons by way of stats, but the combination of what Manu does in his late 30s and how he helps the Spurs win they will not be able to deliver as well.

[DarrinS]

He didn't come here for the money. So happy to see him contribute like that last night.

[DarrinS]

Kobester could only wish to be as effective as Manu Ginobili is right now at 38 years old. Manu can't go full bore for 30-35 minutes like he used to, but as an off the bench player he is the guy that makes the Spurs so hard to defend as he gets the ball moving all over the court and juices up his teammates. He was simply special out there last night.

Most of the so-called "Star" guards of today (Curry, Hardin, Paul) will not have anywhere close to the long term staying power of Manu. They may have better individual seasons by way of stats, but the combination of what Manu does in his late 30s and how he helps the Spurs win they will not be able to deliver as well.


I don't know wtf Manu did this offseason, but he he looks great. And the way he's playing right now, I don't see any reason why he can't do this all season.

[lefty]

Not as done as Porker

[GSH]

I have to wonder if some of you ever watched David West play before. Or if you saw him at all last season?

West is one of those guys you hate if he's on an opposing team, and (should) love if he's on yours. He's tough, and he plays physical. Not dirty, but hard. He's the closest thing to Mario Elie toughness I remember being in a Spurs jersey since Mario Elie.

The comments about him not playing defense sort of made me smile. People forget the troubles he's given the Spurs on that end in the past. This whole thread reminds me of the year everyone said that Derek Fisher was done, and that he couldn't play ANY defense - and then he came out and just kicked the Spurs' asses with his defense.

Don't base too much on what happened on that damaged Pacers team the last couple of years. West has a lot of gas in the tank, and he'll be one of the players getting minutes in the playoffs. He started all of the 66 games he played in last season, averaged about 29 minutes, and still put up respectable numbers on a team that just didn't play together as a unit. There's absolutely no reason for all the speculation that he's worn out. He isn't. New players always need some time to find their way on the Spurs. Unlike guys like Hedo Turkoglu, I believe West will fully fit in by mid-season at least.

[ceperez]

I don't know wtf Manu did this offseason, but he he looks great. And the way he's playing right now, I don't see any reason why he can't do this all season.

They say he lifted weights to gain strength.

Got my fingers crossed that Manu is going to copy Stephen Curry's quick 3 point release. I don't recall Manu making 3 3pointers in a row in a very long time. Also note that he's not thinking anymore when he takes the shot, he just lets it fly.

[Snaq O'Meal]

Very early in their Spurs careers, Tony was the point guard who couldn't pass and Manu was the shooting guard who couldn't shoot. Manu has come a long way with his outside shot since then.

[GSH]

West finishes with 8 points and 6 boards. For all the talk tonight about his inability to rebound, he finished with the same number of boards as Koufos, who's a 7-footer. Their other 7-footer, Cauley-Stein, also had 6 boards. West was 4-5 from the floor, and those two guys together were 3-5.

I'm not saying he'll make the All Star team, but he's sure as shit not "done". And if he gets this kind of production come playoff time (and he will) the Spurs will be damned lucky to have him on the roster.

[YGWHI]

West finishes with 8 points and 6 boards. For all the talk tonight about his inability to rebound, he finished with the same number of boards as Koufos, who's a 7-footer. Their other 7-footer, Cauley-Stein, also had 6 boards. West was 4-5 from the floor, and those two guys together were 3-5.

I'm not saying he'll make the All Star team, but he's sure as shit not "done". And if he gets this kind of production come playoff time (and he will) the Spurs will be damned lucky to have him on the roster.

:tu

Also, he had a tough matchup battling with Cousins...and the refs.

[FkLA]

For a 4th big, we can do a lot worse than West. He's looked a lot better these past 2-3 games. Plus it's really hard to not like a guy that gave up so much money for an opportunity to play here.

[DarrinS]

Another solid outing for West

[SAGirl]

You still credibly can't play him with Diaw, during that stretch they were both murdered, had trouble rebounding, and SAC scored in the paint with relative ease, and the game was close. Diaw actually plays better position defense contesting shots at the rim bc he anticipates and rotates early. West is pretty solid though, but the Diaw/West pairing I am sure overall has not been a +.

[DarrinS]

You still credibly can't play him with Diaw, during that stretch they were both murdered, had trouble rebounding, and SAC scored in the paint with relative ease, and the game was close. Diaw actually plays better position defense contesting shots at the rim bc he anticipates and rotates early. West is pretty solid though, but the Diaw/West pairing I am sure overall has not been a +.


I don't like that pairing, either. I'd like to see Diaw play more with LMA and Tim with West.

[TheGreatYacht]

Will be our Speights. His mid range shots are deadly, and his passing is phenomenal for the second big off the bench. Glad he's on the team :tu

[313]

I haven't caughgt much of the last few games. Are they staggering one of diaw or west with LMA/tim?

[hater]

Yesterdays game was an exception because our bench was going apeshit. But West still usually plays most his minutes with Diaw

[hater]

Crazy that many nights our bench will be better than our starters. Don't think any other top 5 team can say this

[Fireball]

He starts hitting his J ... a little less fouls would be appreciated, but the last two games showed some improvements overall

[Agloco]

West finishes with 8 points and 6 boards. For all the talk tonight about his inability to rebound, he finished with the same number of boards as Koufos, who's a 7-footer. Their other 7-footer, Cauley-Stein, also had 6 boards. West was 4-5 from the floor, and those two guys together were 3-5.

I'm not saying he'll make the All Star team, but he's sure as shit not "done". And if he gets this kind of production come playoff time (and he will) the Spurs will be damned lucky to have him on the roster.

It's typical ST crap though. People expect 10/10 on a nightly basis from the 4th big.

[Yuixafun]

Now that West is being more decisive with his play, he's starting to get his groove and also bringing his fire to the defense.

LOL during free throws I could hear one of the refs yell to him "YOU MURDERED HIM WEST"

And he had that screw face on NAHH

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

He starts hitting his J ... a little less fouls would be appreciated, but the last two games showed some improvements overall

It's called getting into shape. Although Diaw is a little overweight, he has great stamina. West, though ripped was gasping for air literally the first week on the season with the constant motion offense and defensive rotations the Spurs system requires.

In wasn't that West was ever done, he just wasn't in the playing shape to play with the Spurs. The Spurs literally practice with the A/C off sometimes. Indiana had a very slow pace offense and overall game. Both he and LMA just need time to get acclimated.

[dweaver99027]

If he hits the mid-range at 45% and acclimates to our defensive schemes he'll be what we expected him to be. Seems to be making progress.

[BackHome]

You can tell in the last game that he and Boris and even Manu are starting to click as the second unit. He played tough defense goes after rebounds and had some good passes.

[objective]

Does everyone still feel the same?

I do.

[Obstructed_View]

Players who need to go:

Duncan
Manu
Bobo
West
Bonner

I'm on the fence about Miller and Martin.

[SAGirl]

Dude has looked every part of it against 2nd stringers of mostly weak opposition...I don't know, but one should give him a couple of more months and see what's going on (mostly on offense)...He's been the Belinelli of Big men for us in the sense that it is an automatic run for the other team..
The Belinelli of big men is a good term. Yuck!

[Chinook]

Think he'd be great as the fourth big next to a center next season. I still believe he may end up starting, if only because he fits well with the first unit. If he's willing to come along cheaply for another season, he should be on the team.

[-21-]

Players who need to go:

Duncan
Manu
Bobo
West
Bonner

I'm on the fence about Miller and Martin.

Are you serious? Why?

[Chinook]

Players who need to go:

Duncan
Manu
Bobo
West
Bonner

I'm on the fence about Miller and Martin.

Can understand Miller, as he seems like a good backup PG or especially a third-string PG if Mills gets moved and a rookie is brought in. Martin sucks. That's all there is to it.

[SAGirl]

^ Yuck!
I'd prefer they don't do that and pick up someone younger and better, or just someone younger with the potential to be better. Dwest is a terrible PnR defender these days and his lack of boxing out really grinds my gears. It won't change no matter who he's played next to.

Edit: I was responding to Chinook idea to start D west next season.
As for Miller I could see him come back as a 3rd string PG. He did well in that role, but I would prefer they draft or trade for someone younger to groom.

[Obstructed_View]

Are you serious? Why?

Mainly because I don't care about either of them. Miller showed that the Spurs desperately need a point guard who can actually pass.

[Obstructed_View]

Think he'd be great as the fourth big next to a center next season. I still believe he may end up starting, if only because he fits well with the first unit. If he's willing to come along cheaply for another season, he should be on the team.

Didn't the Spurs waste enough years putting undersized bigs next to Tim Duncan not to continue to do it with Lamarcus Aldridge? Didn't this year's playoffs teach them anything? Let's get rid of those guys and have two actual centers on the roster. The Spurs are the only decent playoff team I can think of that doesn't have a real center in its rotation.

[spursistan]

What the hell had happened to his jump shot in the last month? :lol

[Chinook]

Didn't the Spurs waste enough years putting undersized bigs next to Tim Duncan not to continue to do it with Lamarcus Aldridge? Didn't this year's playoffs teach them anything? Let's get rid of those guys and have two actual centers on the roster. The Spurs are the only decent playoff team I can think of that doesn't have a real center in its rotation.

This isn't 2006 anymore. If the Spurs had Prime Duncan now, guys like Bonner would have been obvious plays over the Nazrs of the world. People are really, really overreacting to the OKC loss. Spurs lost because they're support team got old. They weren't going to win the rebounding battle versus OKC, but as GS showed, they didn't need to. Having a tiny front court will probably never be a great idea, but thinking that LMA is a poor center is antiquated. I'm a fan of the Spurs getting a center or two for sure. But fixing the guard situation is a much bigger priority. They simply can't rely on Parker's remaining gas and Green's streakiness and expect to compete.

You want the Spurs to get a starting-caliber center and a third-big caliber center in the same off-season. That's likely not going to happen.

[SAGirl]

not overreacting Chinook ^ I am with you on a lot of guys, specially young guys who are misjudged too early while they are still learning how to play...
but 35-36 yr. old DWest doesn't box out, he's not even a tough guy. He just slaps ppl around and foul them when they get by him. Yuck! I realized it was Pop. He was really played out of position to begin with, but I do not want this dude starting. I will take no knees Tim starting over D-West.

Heck I would pick up Milutinov from where he's at and throw him in the fire the way Houston picked up Capela's skinny self and threw him out there.

Frankly, I think Boban and Diaw would have been fine. Maybe we don't win 67 games bc it takes Boban a few games to get rolling, but we would have been better in the end. I don't think D-West did us a favor leaving all that money out in Indy. I think Indy told him how it was going to be the way they did with Hibbert and he just chose to not get dealt wherever and do something that was best for him, not for us but for him.

He would be a fine enough 4th big, a bench PF with Boban lets say, for example, but he can't play next to Diaw again and he should not be starting bc his defense has gone the way :td
He can't stop anybody for the life of him and PF who can put the ball on the floor like the Mirotics of the world? Forget it. WE are better off starting Anderson against those dudes, seriously. Nope. D'West is a bench big at this point in his career.

Starting center next season, I don't know what they do about. If Tim comes back him. Maybe they want Pau Gasol, maybe they put Boban there. I would look at real Center options before I gaze in D'West direction. Just no. :vomit:

[Obstructed_View]

This isn't 2006 anymore. If the Spurs had Prime Duncan now, guys like Bonner would have been obvious plays over the Nazrs of the world. People are really, really overreacting to the OKC loss. Spurs lost because they're support team got old. They weren't going to win the rebounding battle versus OKC, but as GS showed, they didn't need to. Having a tiny front court will probably never be a great idea, but thinking that LMA is a poor center is antiquated. I'm a fan of the Spurs getting a center or two for sure. But fixing the guard situation is a much bigger priority. They simply can't rely on Parker's remaining gas and Green's streakiness and expect to compete.

You want the Spurs to get a starting-caliber center and a third-big caliber center in the same off-season. That's likely not going to happen.

The Spurs had three good centers on the roster in 2006 and they watched the team get bounced out of the playoffs from the bench. I really hope we're past the point where Pop stupidly runs out small lineups.

People might be overreacting to the OKC loss, but let's not lose sight of the fact that the Spurs are as weak at the position as they have ever been, and it really bit them in the ass this time. Pop keeps anticipating this dream smallball matchup that never comes to pass. He's spent ten years preparing for it.

It's not really my fault that the Spurs find themselves in this situation. Again. But it's still something they need. Dwight Howard is likely a pipedream due to his salary, but any actual NBA center that the Spurs can get will be a better starting option than David Fucking West, so it's not that unrealistic to want some combination of Marjanovic and another big to fill out that rotation. If you're the Spurs, you're not going to be likely to find many takers for Tony Parker who want to give up a starting-caliber pass-first point guard, so if you make a trade it's going to be for a center.

Everything kind of hinges on the Spurs drafting a usable player.

[Chinook]

People might be overreacting to the OKC loss, but let's not lose sight of the fact that the Spurs are as weak at the position as they have ever been, and it really bit them in the ass this time. Pop keeps anticipating this dream smallball matchup that never comes to pass. He's spent ten years preparing for it.

What did you expect them to do? Only thing would have been bringing Milutinov over, and if you remember anything about draft night on ST, you'd know that I went all apoplectic when they drafted-and-stashed him. Like my biggest meltdown on this board. But besides that, what did you want them to do? The idea of relying on Boban wasn't really sound, either, and which centers were on the market that made more sense? Dalembert? Okafor?


It's not really my fault that the Spurs find themselves in this situation. Again. But it's still something they need. Dwight Howard is likely a pipedream due to his salary, but any actual NBA center that the Spurs can get will be a better starting option than David Fucking West, so it's not that unrealistic to want some combination of Marjanovic and another big to fill out that rotation. If you're the Spurs, you're not going to be likely to find many takers for Tony Parker who want to give up a starting-caliber pass-first point guard, so if you make a trade it's going to be for a center.

This line is hilarious. Like, why would you think anyone claims you had anything to do with ANY of the Spurs' transactions? As far as your trade ideas, yeah, they come up often. There are guys who are available, but the team has to be willing to give up what it takes to get them, even if that means taking on Tyson Chandler's contract. The reality is that you can't plug up all the holes in one off-season. They'll have to plug the biggest one this summer and the second-biggest one next summer. That's all they'll have the money for.


Everything kind of hinges on the Spurs drafting a usable player.

I don't agree. They need to draft the BPA, but they can't look for low-ceiling guys just because. Sure, a guy like Brogdon might check the most boxes. But besides him, there isn't any reason to not look for someone who can be a starter in 2018 rather than a rotation player in 2016. You simply don't have many options at 29.

[Chinook]

Starting center next season, I don't know what they do about.

I mean, that's how you end up with a David West. Spurs should be looking for the best talent they can add to Kawhi and LMA (and hopefully Green) this off-season. That will likely not be a center. If that's the case, you have the room exception, the min and MAYBE some cap space to find the rest of the big-man rotation. Let's say you have West, some decent, but not great center like Plumlee, and some young guys like Lalanne, Ndoye, Bertans and LJC. How does that rotation shake out? If you think it's not with West starting, I don't know what to tell you except that unless he's the super-sub third big, he's going to be out there at tip-off.

We can complain about it all we want, but in a world where the Spurs get a KD, Conley, Batum or any other marquee free agent, bargain-bin West may be the second-best big on the roster.

[MaNu4Tres]

I mean, that's how you end up with a David West. Spurs should be looking for the best talent they can add to Kawhi and LMA (and hopefully Green) this off-season. That will likely not be a center. If that's the case, you have the room exception, the min and MAYBE some cap space to find the rest of the big-man rotation. Let's say you have West, some decent, but not great center like Plumlee, and some young guys like Lalanne, Ndoye, Bertans and LJC. How does that rotation shake out? If you think it's not with West starting, I don't know what to tell you except that unless he's the super-sub third big, he's going to be out there at tip-off.

We can complain about it all we want, but in a world where the Spurs get a KD, Conley, Batum or any other marquee free agent, bargain-bin West may be the second-best big on the roster.

You really have a hard on for Lalanne, Nydoye, LJC. No idea why youre even implying that they'll be part of rotation.

Bertans is only one that may have a chance.

[TD 21]

Think he'd be great as the fourth big next to a center next season. I still believe he may end up starting, if only because he fits well with the first unit. If he's willing to come along cheaply for another season, he should be on the team.

He's a terrible fit with the first unit, because outside of passing, he doesn't excel at anything Aldridge doesn't. In 2016, 18 foot range doesn't make one a spacer and he's damn sure not a roller, rim protector or glass cleaner.

If he doesn't retire, I suspect he'd like to return (albeit on a significant raise), but the Spurs need to move on. As much as it pains you and SAGirl, for obvious reasons, Duncan and Ginobili are different animals than the other old guys that are free agents or can easily be moved. All of the others should be jettisoned.



This isn't 2006 anymore. If the Spurs had Prime Duncan now, guys like Bonner would have been obvious plays over the Nazrs of the world. People are really, really overreacting to the OKC loss. Spurs lost because they're support team got old. They weren't going to win the rebounding battle versus OKC, but as GS showed, they didn't need to. Having a tiny front court will probably never be a great idea, but thinking that LMA is a poor center is antiquated. I'm a fan of the Spurs getting a center or two for sure. But fixing the guard situation is a much bigger priority. They simply can't rely on Parker's remaining gas and Green's streakiness and expect to compete.

You want the Spurs to get a starting-caliber center and a third-big caliber center in the same off-season. That's likely not going to happen.

No, antiquated is thinking a player with 18 foot range on offense and limited range on defense, makes sense next to a center in 2016.

Aldridge is no more a full time center than Mills is a true point guard. There's a difference between being physically and stylistically aligned with a position.

The type of team you want to see them build, would see them no longer reign supreme defensively, while still remaining inferior to fellow elites offensively. That doesn't make any sense.

[Chinook]

You really have a hard on for Lalanne, Nydoye, LJC. No idea why youre even implying that they'll be part of rotation.

Bertans is only one that may have a chance.

Went completely over your head.

[Chinook]

He's a terrible fit with the first unit, because outside of passing, he doesn't excel at anything Aldridge doesn't. In 2016, 18 foot range doesn't make one a spacer and he's damn sure not a roller, rim protector or glass cleaner.

Yeah, I don't think that makes sense at all. You need to space the floor to have post players. That a guy is a roller, rebounder or glass-cleaner doesn't make him any better at spacing the floor. A guy who can shoot from outside spaces the floor, and that's it. Long-twos absolutely do space the floor if the guy who's taking them is elite at doing so. Anyway, I totally expect to see West shooting threes next year with pretty much any team he joins. He has potential there, clearly.


If he doesn't retire, I suspect he'd like to return (albeit on a significant raise), but the Spurs need to move on. As much as it pains you and SAGirl, for obvious reasons, Duncan and Ginobili are different animals than the other old guys that are free agents or can easily be moved. All of the others should be jettisoned.

I think this just demonstrates a complete lack of understand in what I and especially SAGirl posts about the old guys. It's an open debate whether the Spurs are better with Duncan and Manu opting in next season. But as far as them being able to do so or the team "wanting them to", that's not controversial. It's just a completely irrelevant point of argument. And of course, I don't want the Spurs to keep the other old guys -- especially not at giving them cap space. But a team under the cap usually lacks depth, and when you're talking about room-exception or min guys this summer, you're not going to be talking about complete players. And unfortunately, some questionable players are likely to be in the rotation.


Aldridge is no more a full time center than Mills is a true point guard. There's a difference between being physically and stylistically aligned with a position.

That's really the antiquated view. There's no archetype for bigs anymore. The goal is to figure out how to maximize the production of your talent. If the Spurs manage to rope a Gasol, then yeah, LMA is a PF. If they find a way to get someone like Millsap (hypothetically, obviously), then LMA will be a center. You just make it work. The Spurs didn't last season. But had Diaw not been so horrible, like probably win that series, and this size issue has little traction.


The type of team you want to see them build, would see them no longer reign supreme defensively, while still remaining inferior to fellow elites offensively. That doesn't make any sense.

I know you want the Spurs to essentially be Memphis 2.0, but that's just not going to work. The team will have to rely on being able to defend the best players on the other teams and to be competent defensively. But they won't make it without a better offense. This year showed that. Pace is a big thing, but spacing and talent were bigger things. The team needs scorers and facilitators over defenders. For god's sake, why is that not obvious by now? The team is relying on non-natural scorer Kawhi and LMA to carry the offense. Parker and Green are incredibly inconsistent. Mills is at best inconsistent. Diaw is done. They need to fix that, and that's going to cost money. Will they have money to get the defensive big they should have as well? Not likely. Or they get the big and not the guard, and they'll still be disappointing, but this time, they'll have a lower ceiling. The Spurs have to fix their core before they focus on role-players.

[TD 21]

Yeah, I don't think that makes sense at all. You need to space the floor to have post players. That a guy is a roller, rebounder or glass-cleaner doesn't make him any better at spacing the floor. A guy who can shoot from outside spaces the floor, and that's it. Long-twos absolutely do space the floor if the guy who's taking them is elite at doing so. Anyway, I totally expect to see West shooting threes next year with pretty much any team he joins. He has potential there, clearly.

You missed the point. The point was, West doesn't really space the floor, nor do center things, so he fits neither description of the type of player they need next to Aldridge. He also said something to the effect of he's not looking to become a three-point shooter.


I think this just demonstrates a complete lack of understand in what I and especially SAGirl posts about the old guys. It's an open debate whether the Spurs are better with Duncan and Manu opting in next season. But as far as them being able to do so or the team "wanting them to", that's not controversial. It's just a completely irrelevant point of argument. And of course, I don't want the Spurs to keep the other old guys -- especially not at giving them cap space. But a team under the cap usually lacks depth, and when you're talking about room-exception or min guys this summer, you're not going to be talking about complete players. And unfortunately, some questionable players are likely to be in the rotation.

Bullshit. You two either only became Spurs fans semi recently or you're just that cold. It's one thing to want to move on (I get that sentiment and I'm not necessarily opposed to it), but it's another to take shots.


That's really the antiquated view. There's no archetype for bigs anymore. The goal is to figure out how to maximize the production of your talent. If the Spurs manage to rope a Gasol, then yeah, LMA is a PF. If they find a way to get someone like Millsap (hypothetically, obviously), then LMA will be a center. You just make it work. The Spurs didn't last season. But had Diaw not been so horrible, like probably win that series, and this size issue has little traction.


There is, it's just different, especially for power forwards. Of course, if they could get a talent like Millsap, they would/should do it in a second; but they can't. We're talking role players here. Again, it's not about size, so much as it is about style. I don't know why it's so difficult to comprehend that Aldridge is a 4.5, which means the second and third bigs need to essentially be co-second bigs, the way Splitter/Diaw were, depending on match-up.


I know you want the Spurs to essentially be Memphis 2.0, but that's just not going to work. The team will have to rely on being able to defend the best players on the other teams and to be competent defensively. But they won't make it without a better offense. This year showed that. Pace is a big thing, but spacing and talent were bigger things. The team needs scorers and facilitators over defenders. For god's sake, why is that not obvious by now? The team is relying on non-natural scorer Kawhi and LMA to carry the offense. Parker and Green are incredibly inconsistent. Mills is at best inconsistent. Diaw is done. They need to fix that, and that's going to cost money. Will they have money to get the defensive big they should have as well? Not likely. Or they get the big and not the guard, and they'll still be disappointing, but this time, they'll have a lower ceiling. The Spurs have to fix their core before they focus on role-players.

That's not at all what I want. I want versatility, while you want to attempt to mimic the Warriors, when this team has no realistic path to that. All I'm saying is, they can't forget about the defense just to spruce up an offense that's still going to fall short of the other elites no matter what they do.

People don't want to hear this, but Parker IS still part of the core. Of course the back court needs an upgrade, but the reality is, three of the four rotation guards are likely to return, while one of the rotation bigs is, so by default, it is the more immediate need.

[SAGirl]

I mean, that's how you end up with a David West. Spurs should be looking for the best talent they can add to Kawhi and LMA (and hopefully Green) this off-season. That will likely not be a center. If that's the case, you have the room exception, the min and MAYBE some cap space to find the rest of the big-man rotation. Let's say you have West, some decent, but not great center like Plumlee, and some young guys like Lalanne, Ndoye, Bertans and LJC. How does that rotation shake out? If you think it's not with West starting, I don't know what to tell you except that unless he's the super-sub third big, he's going to be out there at tip-off.

We can complain about it all we want, but in a world where the Spurs get a KD, Conley, Batum or any other marquee free agent, bargain-bin West may be the second-best big on the roster.
I don't think personally we get a guy like that and have said that in other threads, though several spurs fans continue to delude themselves that we will. Not once will you see me making an argument for a guy like that bc we'd need to be bare the last remaining shreds of depth we have for a guy who has redundancies with our stars.
I am not sure who they go after, but I have said they are likely to make moves around the edges to fill holes like Timmy would be leaving and D west is not the answer. That's just me obviously.

[dabom]

SAGirl with some sensible posts. :wow

[Chinook]

You missed the point. The point was, West doesn't really space the floor, nor do center things, so he fits neither description of the type of player they need next to Aldridge. He also said something to the effect of he's not looking to become a three-point shooter.

I didn't miss your point. I just said it's irrelevant in my opinion. West thusofar hasn't been a three-point shooter. The Spurs need a three-point shooter as a big. It's not going to help their offense to have guy who can't shoot but can do other things, not unless they get the ball out of Leonard's hands. I think he will become a three-point shooter, though. There's really no reason to not project it, as his shot looks good. I think he'll do whatever the team asks of him. So long as he can knock down open shots at an efficient TS%, I think he's fine. Not ideal by any means, but fine.


Bullshit. You two either only became Spurs fans semi recently or you're just that cold. It's one thing to want to move on (I get that sentiment and I'm not necessarily opposed to it), but it's another to take shots.

:cry It's a fucking game, man. I know it, they know it. You should know it. I want to watch the Spurs win. If they keep Manu and Tim, that's cool. I'll chat about ways they can win with those guys. But if they don't, they don't, and I have plenty of ideas about where I'd like to see them go from there. If you ask me right now, I think it's best that they go. Dunno what you mean about me taking shots, though.


There is, it's just different, especially for power forwards. Of course, if they could get a talent like Millsap, they would/should do it in a second; but they can't. We're talking role players here. Again, it's not about size, so much as it is about style. I don't know why it's so difficult to comprehend that Aldridge is a 4.5, which means the second and third bigs need to essentially be co-second bigs, the way Splitter/Diaw were, depending on match-up.

This is just an attempt to twist out of your old position. LMA being a 4.5 was never controversial. You were the one saying that as a result of that, he needs a center next to him. My stance this entire time is that they need to add the most talented big they can next to him, regardless of position. If it's Pau, then LMA would play as a PF. If it's Millsap, or Terrence Jones or whatever, then Aldridge would be a center. And yes, I agree that the third big being the opposite of the second big would be nice. Seeing as we've been talking about third bigs like Plumlee and Aldrich, it seems like getting a PF with the second-big salary slot is wise. There aren't many examples of cheap PFs out there who are good enough to play in the short rotation of a contender.


That's not at all what I want. I want versatility, while you want to attempt to mimic the Warriors, when this team has no realistic path to that. All I'm saying is, they can't forget about the defense just to spruce up an offense that's still going to fall short of the other elites no matter what they do.

I think you're off your rocker if you think the idea of having LMA play PF is a GS idea. It's not. There are just too many damned examples out there of teams that aren't playing two traditional bigs nowadays. That includes a number of playoffs teams. And I'm not even talking about pulling shit like Animu at the four. We're talking about legit bigs here. LMA/West is hardly a GS-inspired front court. And LMA/Sullinger is significantly less so.


People don't want to hear this, but Parker IS still part of the core. Of course the back court needs an upgrade, but the reality is, three of the four rotation guards are likely to return, while one of the rotation bigs is, so by default, it is the more immediate need.

I mean, they have exclusive control over three of their top-five bigs. And they are extremely likely to be able to keep a fourth. It's not very hard at all to figure out how to get the other guys if they want to go that route. But just as with Diaw, Parker and Mills are question marks. Unlike with Diaw, there is no one who is playing their position who can score better. Finding guys who can role and score isn't hard. Again, the Spurs have one in Europe right now. But they've have like no success finding guys who can drive and create mismatches. The priority has to be fixing that glaring flaw and finding a new guy to fill their sixth-man roll.

As far as Parker goes, he needs to be part of the Spurs' core the same way Haslem is part of the Heat's core. They can't rely on him, so if they keep him, they're going to have to improve around him and take his good games as gravy.

[Chinook]

I don't think personally we get a guy like that and have said that in other threads, though several spurs fans continue to delude themselves that we will. Not once will you see me making an argument for a guy like that bc we'd need to be bare the last remaining shreds of depth we have for a guy who has redundancies with our stars.
I am not sure who they go after, but I have said they are likely to make moves around the edges to fill holes like Timmy would be leaving and D west is not the answer. That's just me obviously.

I don't like the idea of trying to patch the holes up around LMA and Kawhi and just giving it another go. If Tim and Manu leave, they HAVE to start rebuilding their core with a big signing and their depth through getting young players on their roster. It needs to be both unless the team is okay with sacrificing a season or two. I'm not sure they are.

As far as the signing costing depth, it actually does do that much harm. If the Spurs trade Parker for nothing for example, they can waive Diaw (which should happen no matter what, honestly) and sign Durant (for example) while still having $7 Million in cap space and the room exception. That's enough to bring over the young guys and sign two mid-level players. Or to keep Boban and sign one mid-level player along with the young'uns.

The depth chart could look like so:

PG: Mills, Miller, Murry (29)
SG: Leonard, Green, Simmons
SF: Durant, Anderson, Bertans
PF: West, Bass (mid-level guy), Lalanne
C: LMA, Boban, Milutinov

And you can sprinkle in whatever Parker netted on top of that. It certainly could be better in the front court, but it's still great depth. All three layers look like they can be fun.

[MaNu4Tres]

I didn't miss your point. I just said it's irrelevant in my opinion. West thusofar hasn't been a three-point shooter. The Spurs need a three-point shooter as a big. It's not going to help their offense to have guy who can't shoot but can do other things, not unless they get the ball out of Leonard's hands. I think he will become a three-point shooter, though. There's really no reason to not project it, as his shot looks good. I think he'll do whatever the team asks of him. So long as he can knock down open shots at an efficient TS%, I think he's fine. Not ideal by any means, but fine.

So much I disagree with in this post, I don't even know where to start.

Let me let you in on some basketball knowledge, Chinook.

Even if Leonard has the ball in his hands, Spurs don't need two big men who can shoot to open up the offense. Apparently you have no idea what skill-sets are needed in order for the motion offense, or Spurs offense in general, to become efficiently optimal.

Spurs need a solid diver in PnRs to open up shots for Danny and other weak-side shooters or open up more opportunities around the basket -- the best shots in basketball ( layups/ dunks or wide open 3s).

This past year, the Spurs had no divers and it killed the Spurs offense vs. the elite teams when Leonard, Parker or Manu had the ball in PnRs -- teams gave the open pass to the big who would pick and pop ( Diaw, West, Duncan) and the best shots in basketball became hard to create in the halfcourt offense.

As for the Pick N Pop options, as we all saw, Diaw had zero confidence getting the ball in that area, same with Duncan and later on ...same with West. The weak-side defense was able to stay at home w/ the weak-side shooters and any action was easily defended because the weak-side perimeter defenders didn't have to rotate -- as the defenders involved in the Pick and Pop were "giving up" the worst shot in basketball -- the mid-range jumper from West or giving up an ineffective/clock killing dribbling handle off/reset from TD/Diaw. Not having a diver in PnRs is a big reason why you saw Danny take zero shots in long stretches of games and its a big reason why he did struggle as his shots were contested more often than they had been in the past.

Back when we saw the effective ball-movement motion offense from 12'-14', Spurs had two great divers in a healthy and spry TD/Splitter and one of the two would always be in the game. Weakside perimeter D would have to rotate towards the strong side whenever there was any PnR action involving Splitter/TD and the weakside action or shooter was always open. Having a diver in PnRs was a huge reason why Neal, Mills, Green, Manu, ect all were able to get off and have HUGE games.

Spurs need a diver again in PnRs-- that is why Plumlee would be such a great value pick up for SA -- he will cost a fraction of most of the big men on the market and his skill-set is EXACTLY what the Spurs need for a 18-22 minute role. Plus he is a strong/mobile rim protector and rebounder.


In regards to your David West take... you think West will just now become a 3 point shooter in his 14th year in the NBA?? That is absurd. One of your worst takes I've read this week.

[SAGirl]

I don't like the idea of trying to patch the holes up around LMA and Kawhi and just giving it another go. If Tim and Manu leave, they HAVE to start rebuilding their core with a big signing and their depth through getting young players on their roster. It needs to be both unless the team is okay with sacrificing a season or two. I'm not sure they are.

As far as the signing costing depth, it actually does do that much harm. If the Spurs trade Parker for nothing for example, they can waive Diaw (which should happen no matter what, honestly) and sign Durant (for example) while still having $7 Million in cap space and the room exception. That's enough to bring over the young guys and sign two mid-level players. Or to keep Boban and sign one mid-level player along with the young'uns.

The depth chart could look like so:

PG: Mills, Miller, Murry (29)
SG: Leonard, Green, Simmons
SF: Durant, Anderson, Bertans
PF: West, Bass (mid-level guy), Lalanne
C: LMA, Boban, Milutinov

And you can sprinkle in whatever Parker netted on top of that. It certainly could be better in the front court, but it's still great depth. All three layers look like they can be fun.
If Tim and Manu leave I agree with you that they need to make some additional moves, but I think at this point the team has some holes that need filling and Manu and Tim retiring just add to that. I would rather pick up Milutinov and spot him as C if they can do no better than Dworst bc he's 7 ft tall with a 7'3 wingspan and is a real center, who rolls to the basket and sets picks, in addition to really contesting shots. Maybe he's not ready to start but I would give him a chance like Pop's did with Boban. Maybe they start Boban even, Pop's did try that pairing in the RS.

But in addition to issues of fit, I have since come to think they will not make the drastic moves this off-season. The only player that is worth it really is Durant (not Conley, not Al Horford, etc), but Durant is not a seamless fit, and he presents redundancies, which means that there are diminishing returns to what he brings, and I have my doubts he comes over. Regardless, call it a hunch, but I doubt we get a significant FA this offseason and ppl will be disappointed. So yea, I don't think they will trade off Tony for one, not this offseason at least, and although I thought initially that Manu and Tim retire, if they don't, I expect them to opt in for the rest of their contracts, not to come back for the vet minimum. In that case, all they can do is to make moderate upgrades.

Its fine and entertaining to discuss possibilities, realistic and remote, but in terms of what I am expecting, nothing drastic really, maybe sadly. I only hope that Tim and Manu know when its time and if they return they can still play and don't pull a Kobe. That's really all I am hoping.

Edit: If they do go after a big fish and don't land him, they must have some plans B and C. Even if they do go after the big fishes it's quite possible they are not able to add anyone better than LMA and Kawhi already and must go for quality roleplayers. Which IMO could be a better move for the team in the end.

[SAGirl]

So much I disagree with in this post, I don't even know where to start.

Let me let you in on some basketball knowledge, Chinook.

Even if Leonard has the ball in his hands, Spurs don't need two big men who can shoot to open up the offense. Apparently you have no idea what skill-sets are needed in order for the motion offense, or Spurs offense in general, to become efficiently optimal.

Spurs need a solid diver in PnRs to open up shots for Danny and other weak-side shooters or open up more opportunities around the basket -- the best shots in basketball ( layups/ dunks or wide open 3s).

This past year, the Spurs had no divers and it killed the Spurs offense vs. the elite teams when Leonard, Parker or Manu had the ball in PnRs -- teams gave the open pass to the big who would pick and pop ( Diaw, West, Duncan) and the best shots in basketball became hard to create in the halfcourt offense.

As for the Pick N Pop options, as we all saw, Diaw had zero confidence getting the ball in that area, same with Duncan and later on ...same with West. The weak-side defense was able to stay at home w/ the weak-side shooters and any action was easily defended because the weak-side perimeter defenders didn't have to rotate -- as the defenders involved in the Pick and Pop were "giving up" the worst shot in basketball -- the mid-range jumper from West or giving up an ineffective/clock killing dribbling handle off/reset from TD/Diaw. Not having a diver in PnRs is a big reason why you saw Danny take zero shots in long stretches of games and its a big reason why he did struggle as his shots were contested more often than they had been in the past.

Back when we saw the effective ball-movement motion offense from 12'-14', Spurs had two great divers in a healthy and spry TD/Splitter and one of the two would always be in the game. Weakside perimeter D would have to rotate towards the strong side whenever there was any PnR action involving Splitter/TD and the weakside action or shooter was always open. Having a diver in PnRs was a huge reason why Neal, Mills, Green, Manu, ect all were able to get off and have HUGE games.

Spurs need a diver again in PnRs-- that is why Plumlee would be such a great value pick up for SA -- he will cost a fraction of most of the big men on the market and his skill-set is EXACTLY what the Spurs need for a 18-22 minute role. Plus he is a strong/mobile rim protector and rebounder.


In regards to your David West take... you think West will just now become a 3 point shooter in his 14th year in the NBA?? That is absurd. One of your worst takes I've read this week.
Good explanation of why Plumlee fits in. I like it.

[DrSteffo]

So much I disagree with in this post, I don't even know where to start.

Let me let you in on some basketball knowledge, Chinook.

Even if Leonard has the ball in his hands, Spurs don't need two big men who can shoot to open up the offense. Apparently you have no idea what skill-sets are needed in order for the motion offense, or Spurs offense in general, to become efficiently optimal.

Spurs need a solid diver in PnRs to open up shots for Danny and other weak-side shooters or open up more opportunities around the basket -- the best shots in basketball ( layups/ dunks or wide open 3s).

This past year, the Spurs had no divers and it killed the Spurs offense vs. the elite teams when Leonard, Parker or Manu had the ball in PnRs -- teams gave the open pass to the big who would pick and pop ( Diaw, West, Duncan) and the best shots in basketball became hard to create in the halfcourt offense.

As for the Pick N Pop options, as we all saw, Diaw had zero confidence getting the ball in that area, same with Duncan and later on ...same with West. The weak-side defense was able to stay at home w/ the weak-side shooters and any action was easily defended because the weak-side perimeter defenders didn't have to rotate -- as the defenders involved in the Pick and Pop were "giving up" the worst shot in basketball -- the mid-range jumper from West or giving up an ineffective/clock killing dribbling handle off/reset from TD/Diaw. Not having a diver in PnRs is a big reason why you saw Danny take zero shots in long stretches of games and its a big reason why he did struggle as his shots were contested more often than they had been in the past.

Back when we saw the effective ball-movement motion offense from 12'-14', Spurs had two great divers in a healthy and spry TD/Splitter and one of the two would always be in the game. Weakside perimeter D would have to rotate towards the strong side whenever there was any PnR action involving Splitter/TD and the weakside action or shooter was always open. Having a diver in PnRs was a huge reason why Neal, Mills, Green, Manu, ect all were able to get off and have HUGE games.

Spurs need a diver again in PnRs-- that is why Plumlee would be such a great value pick up for SA -- he will cost a fraction of most of the big men on the market and his skill-set is EXACTLY what the Spurs need for a 18-22 minute role. Plus he is a strong/mobile rim protector and rebounder.


In regards to your David West take... you think West will just now become a 3 point shooter in his 14th year in the NBA?? That is absurd. One of your worst takes I've read this week.

Excellent post, thanks.

[J_Paco]

Players who need to go:

Duncan
Manu
Bobo
West
Bonner

I'm on the fence about Miller and Martin.

I understand they are probably past the point of being productive players, but in no world should a "loyal" Spurs fan pick Andre Miller and Kevin Martin overr Duncan and Ginobili. Even if a player of Miller's skillset is badly needed as either a starter or backup. That doesn't change the fact that he hasn't played enough or done enough in a Spurs uniform to be given preferential treatment over two all-time greats.

Martin is/was complete dog shit this past season and should have never been given a roster spot. Butler may have been old and possibly "washed up" too, but at least his frame, skillset and mentoring (for Anderson and Simmons) of younger players is something the team needed.

Who knows, he may have had a "Steve Kerr" esque moment for us in him but the front office was in love with bringing in a skinny, frail, one-dimensional choke artist instead.

I do agree that most of those players (with possibly Manu and Timmy included) should be gone before the start of next season, though.

Taking a flier on Miles Plumlee and maybe Meyers Leonard (gotta hope Portland let's him walk and doesn't offer a QO) next to either Duncan and/or Boban would automatically help the team's terrible center position depth. They need to think outside the box a little and go after cheap, "untapped potential" players and stay far, far away from an old, washed up veteran like David West.

West is only two inches shorter (6'9" vs. 6'11") with longer arms (7'4" vs. 7'1" wingspan) than Enes Kanter, but he routinely and continually got out worked and embarrassed on both ends and especially on the glass. He needs to move on to the next phase of his career else where and not in a Spurs jersey. Anyone suggesting he should start next to Aldridge next season, which proved to be a poor pairing on defense and rebounding wise, needs get off whatever high dose of drug their on.

[Chinook]

So much I disagree with in this post, I don't even know where to start.

You're getting to the point that you're just a broken record.


Let me let you in on some basketball knowledge, Chinook.

What an arrogant line from someone who's going to make a lot of mistakes in the rest of the post.


Even if Leonard has the ball in his hands, Spurs don't need two big men who can shoot to open up the offense. Apparently you have no idea what skill-sets are needed in order for the motion offense, or Spurs offense in general, to become efficiently optimal.

There isn't any single "Spurs offense". The Spurs run whatever they think will work best for their personnel. They ran through the post when it was Tim as the head dog. They started running PnR when it was Parker and Manu. Now they are back to the post with Kawhi and LMA. This wasn't some accident. They wanted to do this. They don't have the guys to run a PnR because they don't WANT the guys to run a PnR. A Parker/Plumlee PnR takes the ball out of both Kawhi's and LMA's hands. They are relegated to third and fourth options on the play you want to be the staple of the offense. That's simply not going to happen. And it shouldn't.


Spurs need a solid diver in PnRs to open up shots for Danny and other weak-side shooters or open up more opportunities around the basket -- the best shots in basketball ( layups/ dunks or wide open 3s).

Nope.


This past year, the Spurs had no divers and it killed the Spurs offense vs. the elite teams when Leonard, Parker or Manu had the ball in PnRs -- teams gave the open pass to the big who would pick and pop ( Diaw, West, Duncan) and the best shots in basketball became hard to create in the halfcourt offense.

Or maybe the Spurs didn't actually want to roll. All of those guys know how to roll and just didn't. Maybe it had something to do with the Spurs' guards not being effective penetrators and needing the easier pass off the PnP to create offense? But thinking that the Spurs' offense struggled due to not being able to run an effective PnR is silly. It struggled because it relied on iso scoring. That was a choice on their part, not a limitation.


As for the Pick N Pop options, as we all saw, Diaw had zero confidence getting the ball in that area, same with Duncan and later on ...same with West. The weak-side defense was able to stay at home w/ the weak-side shooters and any action was easily defended because the weak-side perimeter defenders didn't have to rotate -- as the defenders involved in the Pick and Pop were "giving up" the worst shot in basketball -- the mid-range jumper from West or giving up an ineffective/clock killing dribbling handle off/reset from TD/Diaw. Not having a diver in PnRs is a big reason why you saw Danny take zero shots in long stretches of games and its a big reason why he did struggle as his shots were contested more often than they had been in the past.

Back when we saw the effective ball-movement motion offense from 12'-14', Spurs had two great divers in a healthy and spry TD/Splitter and one of the two would always be in the game. Weakside perimeter D would have to rotate towards the strong side whenever there was any PnR action involving Splitter/TD and the weakside action or shooter was always open. Having a diver in PnRs was a huge reason why Neal, Mills, Green, Manu, ect all were able to get off and have HUGE games.

I really wouldn't have much of an issue with this except that you seem to think that the Spurs really wanted to run pick plays with Parker and were just unable to. The Spurs' offense just changed. In 2014, Parker and Manu were the team's leaders in USG%. In the playoffs, those numbers were 28.3 and 26.2 respectively. Four of the top five players in that stat were guards, with the only exception being Tim. Contrast that to the playoffs in 2016, where the top two players were Leonard and LMA. Parker and Manu posted USG% scores of 21.6 and 15.6. You want to know why the "Beautiful Game" didn't work this season? Look at the guys who have the ball in their hands.

As for Green, you can see that he got his touches just fine the playoffs when the PnR was mostly gone. He's definitely getting his touches in different ways, but he should be able to adjust to that and knock down his shots again.


Spurs need a diver again in PnRs-- that is why Plumlee would be such a great value pick up for SA -- he will cost a fraction of most of the big men on the market and his skill-set is EXACTLY what the Spurs need for a 18-22 minute role. Plus he is a strong/mobile rim protector and rebounder.

Your confidence in Plumlee is misplaced. We've talked about him enough to where you know that I don't dislike him. I've just repeatedly said that he's not the answer. He's just not proven, and even you wanting him for a 18-22 mpg roll supports that. The Spurs need a starter next to Aldridge, and that player can't play less than half the game. And his defense is being massively overstated. He has a block-to-foul ratio of .54. That's not horrible. But it's not anything other than a foot note.

Biggest issue with your take is that you aren't even disagreeing. You're just going off on a random tangent. "How does the team fix their center rotation?" "Plumlee." "So he's going to be their second-best big?" "No, but he would be great value as he's sucked most of his career but has the skill-set we need." "Okay, but what are they going to do with the rest of the big rotation?" "Uh..."

You get Plumlee. All right. So now you have him, LMA and nobody, with little cap space to get other bigs. Or you add him to LMA, West and Diaw. How does that rotation shake out? You have Plumlee starting and West and Diaw being Turd Towers 2.0, or you have one of them starting (and West makes the most sense), and you have something that would hopefully be like the bench when Splitter played there.

For the tl;dr crowd: The Spurs don't want to run plays without Kawhi and LMA getting the ball in their spots. That makes the need to get a roll man for the first unit vastly overstated. Back when the Spurs were guard-centric, that made sense. But the offense has moved on, for better or worse (likely for worst). Getting a guy like Plumlee isn't enough, and since it's not enough, it doesn't make sense to start him. You need to get two centers if you want one in the starting unit, because the bench needs one much more with LMA being an almost ideal starting center for the personnel they have now.



In regards to your David West take... you think West will just now become a 3 point shooter in his 14th year in the NBA?? That is absurd. One of your worst takes I've read this week.

Don't you think your shit's getting old by now?

[Chinook]

Good explanation of why Plumlee fits in. I like it.

He'd fit into an offense where Parker or Manu created for everyone else. But when you replace Tim and young Leonard with LMA and current Leonard, you go from getting role-players shots in good position to marginalizing stars. As some of the KOFs can tell you, I'm a fan of letting Kawhi play off the ball in favor of someone else creating. But the Spurs don't seem to want that. And I'm not at all a fan of paying LMA $20 Million to be the third option on most plays.

The simplest solution is just to have LMA roll more. He can do it. He's big with long arms, good hands and plenty of athleticism and touch near the rim. Pop could just ask him to do it more, but that hasn't happened. But once you start adding another big to run PnR with, you aren't running PnP with LMA as much as you need to, as that's his most efficient shot (out of the ones he takes usually).

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

So much I disagree with in this post, I don't even know where to start.

Let me let you in on some basketball knowledge, Chinook.

Even if Leonard has the ball in his hands, Spurs don't need two big men who can shoot to open up the offense. Apparently you have no idea what skill-sets are needed in order for the motion offense, or Spurs offense in general, to become efficiently optimal.

Spurs need a solid diver in PnRs to open up shots for Danny and other weak-side shooters or open up more opportunities around the basket -- the best shots in basketball ( layups/ dunks or wide open 3s).

This past year, the Spurs had no divers and it killed the Spurs offense vs. the elite teams when Leonard, Parker or Manu had the ball in PnRs -- teams gave the open pass to the big who would pick and pop ( Diaw, West, Duncan) and the best shots in basketball became hard to create in the halfcourt offense.

As for the Pick N Pop options, as we all saw, Diaw had zero confidence getting the ball in that area, same with Duncan and later on ...same with West. The weak-side defense was able to stay at home w/ the weak-side shooters and any action was easily defended because the weak-side perimeter defenders didn't have to rotate -- as the defenders involved in the Pick and Pop were "giving up" the worst shot in basketball -- the mid-range jumper from West or giving up an ineffective/clock killing dribbling handle off/reset from TD/Diaw. Not having a diver in PnRs is a big reason why you saw Danny take zero shots in long stretches of games and its a big reason why he did struggle as his shots were contested more often than they had been in the past.

Back when we saw the effective ball-movement motion offense from 12'-14', Spurs had two great divers in a healthy and spry TD/Splitter and one of the two would always be in the game. Weakside perimeter D would have to rotate towards the strong side whenever there was any PnR action involving Splitter/TD and the weakside action or shooter was always open. Having a diver in PnRs was a huge reason why Neal, Mills, Green, Manu, ect all were able to get off and have HUGE games.

Spurs need a diver again in PnRs-- that is why Plumlee would be such a great value pick up for SA -- he will cost a fraction of most of the big men on the market and his skill-set is EXACTLY what the Spurs need for a 18-22 minute role. Plus he is a strong/mobile rim protector and rebounder.


In regards to your David West take... you think West will just now become a 3 point shooter in his 14th year in the NBA?? That is absurd. One of your worst takes I've read this week.

This would have all been true ( except for the entirely unnecessary 2nd paragraph ) if the current Spurs had the same offense as the 2012/14 teams, but they don't, not in the slightest. They create offense entirely differently, the guys with the most usage rate are entirely different and the style is not dependent on PnR, rolling, penetrating, passing because the personnel has changed. Parker can no longer collapse a defense, Manu is no longer a magician PnR player. Post ASB Tim couldn't do layups.

The offense revolves around 2 iso, post players. They're both top 15 NBA players, you have to either go with the style they excel at, or trade them for a slasher PG, a rolling big man and a shooter. When a team is trying to initiate offense using a wing post up player, then you defnitely need bigs who can shoot and spread the floor, rather than bigs who can roll, unless you're willing to base your offense around the 3rd/4th, etc best offensive players on the team and downgrade your two 20 PPG scorers to secondary options, which makes zero sense to me.

[Chinook]

If Tim and Manu leave I agree with you that they need to make some additional moves, but I think at this point the team has some holes that need filling and Manu and Tim retiring just add to that. I would rather pick up Milutinov and spot him as C if they can do no better than Dworst bc he's 7 ft tall with a 7'3 wingspan and is a real center, who rolls to the basket and sets picks, in addition to really contesting shots. Maybe he's not ready to start but I would give him a chance like Pop's did with Boban. Maybe they start Boban even, Pop's did try that pairing in the RS.

Boban is a bad fit for the SL. Dude is a black hole on offense. He'd be much better off the bench where he can be the main guy.


But in addition to issues of fit, I have since come to think they will not make the drastic moves this off-season. The only player that is worth it really is Durant (not Conley, not Al Horford, etc), but Durant is not a seamless fit, and he presents redundancies, which means that there are diminishing returns to what he brings, and I have my doubts he comes over. Regardless, call it a hunch, but I doubt we get a significant FA this offseason and ppl will be disappointed. So yea, I don't think they will trade off Tony for one, not this offseason at least, and although I thought initially that Manu and Tim retire, if they don't, I expect them to opt in for the rest of their contracts, not to come back for the vet minimum. In that case, all they can do is to make moderate upgrades.

Worth what? The Spurs will have about $19 Million in cap space just by waiving Diaw, assuming the oldies retire. This isn't last off-season, where a bunch of guys with NBA futures were free agents. If you mean letting those guys go, then I will say that this is a whole different discussion if they exercise their options. If they do, the Spurs may have no cap space at all and not MLE. The only thing they could do is trade guys at that point.

If you mean worth their salary, we're going to have to get used to a new paradigm. Batum is getting a ton of money this summer. Probably at least $100 Million. DeRozan too. They aren't going to be overpaid by doing so. That will just be what guys of that talent level are worth. So the Spurs spending $19 Million on some guy who is a notch below LMA and Kawhi is just something they'll have to live with. The guys you see making $8 Million or so a year aren't going to be the guys who will be that cheap next come next month.


Its fine and entertaining to discuss possibilities, realistic and remote, but in terms of what I am expecting, nothing drastic really, maybe sadly. I only hope that Tim and Manu know when its time and if they return they can still play and don't pull a Kobe. That's really all I am hoping.

What I'm hoping is that they will have it when the team needs them to have it. For the roster, I just hope Pop realizes it's time to develop guys instead of keeping ring-chasers.


Edit: If they do go after a big fish and don't land him, they must have some plans B and C. Even if they do go after the big fishes it's quite possible they are not able to add anyone better than LMA and Kawhi already and must go for quality roleplayers. Which IMO could be a better move for the team in the end.

They are almost certainly not going to improve on Kawhi and LMA. They should rather being looking for a third player who can grow with them. Sullinger or Clarkson aren't supposed to be better than those two, but they are supposed to replace the production Parker is currently supposed to bring. I don't think that duo is going to get much better, honestly, so rather than doubling down on them, they have to give them the help they need. That won't be cheap.

[SAGirl]

^^^worth gutting the roster to get him in--meaning you trade whomever it takes but Kawhi/Aldridge and dump Tony, Danny and Diaw. Like I said I doubt highly they do that. I am not in the let's get Durant camp bc I am a nonbeliever in that plan. If SA gets him and dumps everyone else (including Danny to get better at positions of need or to complete Durants salary), fine, I can understand why it makes sense, but I doubt they do that.

I would classify Clarkson and Sullinger or Collison and Koufous and several suggestions as role players filling needs and that is what they will likely do IMO. Like you I'd hope they develop too. I'd like to see Nikola join the team specially if we don't get a center in, but he has 2 more years in his European contract and Spurs will be spursing with their stashes. I don't want to see more Dworst as C. That set him up for failure. And for small ball when LMA will be the center D west doesn't fit as he can't guard wings or perimeter players one on one. In those cases I suspect we see Anderson or any other wing they add this summer (if they add anybody at the wings).

[Chinook]

But there's an ocean between sacrificing everything they need to to have a max slot and having no cap space. The Spurs could keep Diaw and have $13 Million. They could cut him and have $19 Million. They could cut him and trade someone else to have a max slot and more. Whatever they choose, they just need to get the best player they can with the money they have. That's what I'm saying. They shouldn't worry about getting guys like Plumlee because he's "only" going to cost $6 Million unless that's all they have. If they have more, they should spend more.

Spurs fans have gotten too used to paying under-market value for players. Their core is dying off. They'll need to spend like everyone else has to to bring in the guys they need to fix it.

[mo7888]

I'm a fan of letting Kawhi play off the ball in favor of someone else creating. But the Spurs don't seem to want that.

That is the only part that matters about this whole discussion. How do we play Kwahi...if he's going to play off the ball he has the ability to catch and shoot or catch and drive out of motion. In that scenario you need a PG that can get to the rim and finish making him a threat to pass to spot up shooters and a big that can play PnR to get it started....If Kawhi is the guy with the ball and he is going to facilitate you need a pg who can spot up and play good D and you need a Big that can stretch the floor and leave LMA alone down low. So the answer to what we need starts and ends with how we want to play Kawhi..

[SAGirl]

He'd fit into an offense where Parker or Manu created for everyone else. But when you replace Tim and young Leonard with LMA and current Leonard, you go from getting role-players shots in good position to marginalizing stars. As some of the KOFs can tell you, I'm a fan of letting Kawhi play off the ball in favor of someone else creating. But the Spurs don't seem to want that. And I'm not at all a fan of paying LMA $20 Million to be the third option on most plays.

The simplest solution is just to have LMA roll more. He can do it. He's big with long arms, good hands and plenty of athleticism and touch near the rim. Pop could just ask him to do it more, but that hasn't happened. But once you start adding another big to run PnR with, you aren't running PnP with LMA as much as you need to, as that's his most efficient shot (out of the ones he takes usually).
Well I like diversity in the offense and I think Spurs do too, bc they like sometimes to start the action from somewhere else even if their same. 2 guys finish the play. They did run PNR sometimes with Tim, sometimes Kawhi was the ballhandler, sometimes Tony, Tim just couldn't finish for crap until his retirement game and those weren't PNR, he got several baskets in transition.

Dworst is just another PnP guy who doesn't add much to the starters in any category. His offensive skills are redundant with Kawhi and LMA. If you want to PNP LMA is better, he would be better posting up too, in the paint, in transition, rebounding, etc. The only thing that LMA doesn't like is to roll so to pair him with a traditional center complements him and gives the team variety.

The most damning to me is that Dworst defense stats are misleading. He cannot defend a PNR to save his life and the man just fails at boxing out. DWorst doesn't bring anything to the SL they need but a body, and his passing. I suppose if they gut the roster to get a big fish and can do no better then fine, but I don't think that's what they will do or that it's ideal.

[Chinook]

That is the only part that matters about this whole discussion. How do we play Kwahi...if he's going to play off the ball he has the ability to catch and shoot or catch and drive out of motion. In that scenario you need a PG that can get to the rim and finish making him a threat to pass to spot up shooters and a big that can play PnR to get it started....If Kawhi is the guy with the ball and he is going to facilitate you need a pg who can spot up and play good D and you need a Big that can stretch the floor and leave LMA alone down low. So the answer to what we need starts and ends with how we want to play Kawhi..

Damned strizzle. To a similar extent, the same is true for LMA. He can't have his current game if the Spurs are going to run the PnR with someone else. Again, just have LMA roll. It's by far the easiest way to add that back into first-unit offense. Shit, you can even have Kawhi and LMA play the PnR together if you do that.

[mo7888]

Damned strizzle. To a similar extent, the same is true for LMA. He can't have his current game if the Spurs are going to run the PnR with someone else. Again, just have LMA roll. It's by far the easiest way to add that back into first-unit offense. Shit, you can even have Kawhi and LMA play the PnR together if you do that.

Exactly

[MaNu4Tres]

What an arrogant line from someone who's going to make a lot of mistakes in the rest of the post.

A lot of mistakes? Yet you think West would be better suited to start and become a three point shooter and base your premise on that ridiculous take. It's not my fault that you're in either denial or don't understand the game as much as you think you do. I know you have a high post count and respond to everything 24/7 but that doesn't mean much tbh... I'll give you the information on the cap but all that takes is research if you have the time on your hands -- which you obviously have a lot of.


There isn't any single "Spurs offense". The Spurs run whatever they think will work best for their personnel. They ran through the post when it was Tim as the head dog. They started running PnR when it was Parker and Manu. Now they are back to the post with Kawhi and LMA. This wasn't some accident. They wanted to do this. They don't have the guys to run a PnR because they don't WANT the guys to run a PnR. A Parker/Plumlee PnR takes the ball out of both Kawhi's and LMA's hands. They are relegated to third and fourth options on the play you want to be the staple of the offense. That's simply not going to happen. And it shouldn't.

Spurs run many sets, MANY of them being PnR's with Leonard as the creator. They run action or secondary motion off those initial sets and also run different creative types of side PnR w/ dribble hand offs from the posts featuring Parker/Leonard or another guard. But the reason why the weak-side motion off those sets featuring Leonard didn't work optimally or create the highest +EV shots is because the big that was setting the screen usually Popped because he was unable to effectively dive and convert attempts in traffic -- the good teams WANTED THIS and induced the Spurs to take these shots while weak-side action created zero looks most of the time.

Sure they run many sets with Leonard and Aldridge in ISO but they don't run that every time down the floor and a lot of times they had to go to it because of the ineffectiveness of the secondary motion offense with their personnel this year (against the good teams who defended the sets right). In the playoffs, Pop actually tried to get motion offense going and couldn't -- as they passed ineffectively to guarded players because of the four bigs who were all pick and Pop guys ( 3 ineffective ones)




Or maybe the Spurs didn't actually want to roll. All of those guys know how to roll and just didn't. Maybe it had something to do with the Spurs' guards not being effective penetrators and needing the easier pass off the PnP to create offense? But thinking that the Spurs' offense struggled due to not being able to run an effective PnR is silly. It struggled because it relied on iso scoring. That was a choice on their part, not a limitation.

There's so many wrinkles to the Spurs offense -- yes even the motion offense they ran last year with Aldridge and Kawhi. Their problem was they didn't have a true diver in PnR's to open up the weak-side secondary action. I love how you always think players can just all of a sudden become three point shooters and solid divers in PnR's if Pop just asks them to do it -- "All those guys know how to roll" -- that is the one of the most ridiculous things I've heard. You have to have an effective diver that's a threat to finish inside at a high clip off any creative motion action that involves some type of PnR in order to create the BEST looks in the half court offense. The best looks are not long 2's. Even if its only for 18-22 minutes a game and even if most minutes are with the second unit -- it can make a huge difference in the overall offense for 48 minutes and make the Spurs overall punch on both ends that much more deadly.



I really wouldn't have much of an issue with this except that you seem to think that the Spurs really wanted to run pick plays with Parker and were just unable to. The Spurs' offense just changed. In 2014, Parker and Manu were the team's leaders in USG%. In the playoffs, those numbers were 28.3 and 26.2 respectively. Four of the top five players in that stat were guards, with the only exception being Tim. Contrast that to the playoffs in 2016, where the top two players were Leonard and LMA. Parker and Manu posted USG% scores of 21.6 and 15.6. You want to know why the "Beautiful Game" didn't work this season? Look at the guys who have the ball in their hands.

As for Green, you can see that he got his touches just fine the playoffs when the PnR was mostly gone. He's definitely getting his touches in different ways, but he should be able to adjust to that and knock down his shots again.

You couldn't be more wrong. Spurs ran more PnR's than any other set -- go back and watch the games. Even with Leonard, they ran tons of PnR's with him and Aldridge and Aldridge even dived successful on rare occasion with the starters. Spurs need another diver though -- one that won't pop out 80% of the time like Aldridge. One that can stagger w/the 2nd unit. The second unit had a hard time getting going because they lacked a true diver to open up the offense for the weak-side motion. Teams were giving up the pass to West every time he popped off a PnR or a side dribble hand off -- it prevented the Spurs ever getting weak-side looks.




Your confidence in Plumlee is misplaced. We've talked about him enough to where you know that I don't dislike him. I've just repeatedly said that he's not the answer. He's just not proven, and even you wanting him for a 18-22 mpg roll supports that. The Spurs need a starter next to Aldridge, and that player can't play less than half the game. And his defense is being massively overstated. He has a block-to-foul ratio of .54. That's not horrible. But it's not anything other than a foot note.

Biggest issue with your take is that you aren't even disagreeing. You're just going off on a random tangent. "How does the team fix their center rotation?" "Plumlee." "So he's going to be their second-best big?" "No, but he would be great value as he's sucked most of his career but has the skill-set we need." "Okay, but what are they going to do with the rest of the big rotation?" "Uh..."

You get Plumlee. All right. So now you have him, LMA and nobody, with little cap space to get other bigs. Or you add him to LMA, West and Diaw. How does that rotation shake out? You have Plumlee starting and West and Diaw being Turd Towers 2.0, or you have one of them starting (and West makes the most sense), and you have something that would hopefully be like the bench when Splitter played there.

I've never once said Plumlee is the answer to ALL the Spurs problems and with him Spurs will be favorites like you're implying. I simply said Spurs desperately need someone with his skill-set in the rotation for 18-22 minutes. Whether he start and gets subbed out early like Elson, Oberto, Splitter did, or if he comes off the bench early. Spurs need a player with his skill-set in order for the offense to generate great or better looks (wide open 3's from best shooters, layups-dunks at rim). His skill-set is a lot more needed than David Wests' skill-set -- who virtually doesn't do anything positive for the offense or defense and you're wanting David West to start because you believe he can become a three point shooter in his 14th season. Just... wow.


For the tl;dr crowd: The Spurs don't want to run plays without Kawhi and LMA getting the ball in their spots. That makes the need to get a roll man for the first unit vastly overstated. Back when the Spurs were guard-centric, that made sense. But the offense has moved on, for better or worse (likely for worst). Getting a guy like Plumlee isn't enough, and since it's not enough, it doesn't make sense to start him. You need to get two centers if you want one in the starting unit, because the bench needs one much more with LMA being an almost ideal starting center for the personnel they have now.

Leonard ran the offense in the PnR's more than the Spurs posted up Aldridge or Leonard -- go back and watch the games. Some initial PnR action led to secondary action which was when post up plays for Aldridge were developed. During the 2013/14' runs, the same thing occurred at times but with Duncan or Diaw posting up off of the secondary action-- go back and look at those games.

Sure this past playoff run, Spurs called 4 down for Aldridge as the first action more than they had done in 13'/14' to a degree but they ran PnR's much much more. If you don't believe me -- then just go back and watch the games.

[Chinook]

Well I like diversity in the offense and I think Spurs do too, bc they like sometimes to start the action from somewhere else even if their same. 2 guys finish the play. They did run PNR sometimes with Tim, sometimes Kawhi was the ballhandler, sometimes Tony, Tim just couldn't finish for crap until his retirement game and those weren't PNR, he got several baskets in transition.

You can keep saying the Spurs played a diverse offense, but they didn't. It was almost all Kawhi and LMA. Sure, they had other actions, but those were mostly to get one of those two the ball. A 1/5 PnR with Parker and Plumlee isn't designed to get anyone but Parker or Plumlee the ball. Sure, other players would get it at times. But you don't relegate the top two players on your teams to options for Parker to pass to. The biggest thing as I said is just that this is what the team wanted. Unless they go away from it, they'll have to get guys who fit this style, not the style people wish they still played.


Dworst is just another PnP guy who doesn't add much to the starters in any category. His offensive skills are redundant with Kawhi and LMA. If you want to PNP LMA is better, he would be better posting up too, in the paint, in transition, rebounding, etc. The only thing that LMA doesn't like is to roll so to pair him with a traditional center complements him and gives the team variety.

That ruins spacing and makes the team a LOT less versatile. If they want to have the option to roll again, just have Aldridge roll. He does it, I swear. Hell, have 1/3 PnRs and let Kawhi roll, too. GS rolls their perimeter players at times. Why can't the Spurs?


The most damning to me is that Dworst defense stats are misleading. He cannot defend a PNR to save his life and the man just fails at boxing out. DWorst doesn't bring anything to the SL they need but a body, and his passing. I suppose if they gut the roster to get a big fish and can do no better then fine, but I don't think that's what they will do or that it's ideal.

They don't have to gut the team to not have cap space to spend a lot on a center. They simply have to use ALL of however much they have on another position. Let's say everyone in the rotation put Tim and Manu come back and the Spurs spend the money on Gordon and Boban. That's entirely realistic. So how is that rotation going to shake out? It'll probably be West starting, since why would you curse the bench with TT2?

[MaNu4Tres]

This would have all been true ( except for the entirely unnecessary 2nd paragraph ) if the current Spurs had the same offense as the 2012/14 teams, but they don't, not in the slightest. They create offense entirely differently, the guys with the most usage rate are entirely different and the style is not dependent on PnR, rolling, penetrating, passing because the personnel has changed. Parker can no longer collapse a defense, Manu is no longer a magician PnR player. Post ASB Tim couldn't do layups.

The offense revolves around 2 iso, post players. They're both top 15 NBA players, you have to either go with the style they excel at, or trade them for a slasher PG, a rolling big man and a shooter. When a team is trying to initiate offense using a wing post up player, then you defnitely need bigs who can shoot and spread the floor, rather than bigs who can roll, unless you're willing to base your offense around the 3rd/4th, etc best offensive players on the team and downgrade your two 20 PPG scorers to secondary options, which makes zero sense to me.

Go back and watch the games. Sure Spurs ran 4 down again at times like they used to, but Spurs ran a lot of the same sets -- they just created different shots because of the different personnel the Spurs had this year ( TD was no longer an effective diver since he had no knees -- he became a dribble hand off option, LA popped more often than rolled because thats who he is, West has never been a diver -- he's a popper who became unguarded as playoffs went along, Diaw became unconfident and was just a dribble hand off option after he popped from PNRs). Leonard had more PnR's called for him as the initial action than any ISO play for him or Aldridge. Most of the ISO plays just developed within the motion offense because no good looks were being generated from the motion offense -- so they just went to the ISO in the desperate second and third action. Go back and watch the games. Not having an effective diver hurt the Spurs' overall offense this year -- it hurt the bench more so because they couldn't generate offense for themselves or create for one another -- having a diver would have opened up better opportunities -- there's no doubt in my mind about that.

[SAGirl]

A guy I would love but is a pipedream is Willie Cauley Stein. /sigh

[objective]

Nobody is seriously promoting the idea of West as a starter, are they? That would flush the season down the toilet.

[MaNu4Tres]

Nobody is seriously promoting the idea of West as a starter, are they? That would flush the season down the toilet.

Chinook is confident he can become a three point shooter though going on his 14th year in the league -- so he'd fit in great.

[objective]

I actually had resigned myself last summer before Aldridge signed that West as a consolation wouldn't be too awful.

But he's pretty done, at least as a starting quality player. And as a center.

[Chinook]

A lot of mistakes?

Yes. And more in this post.

Biggest one is that PnRs and PnPs are plays, not sets. Motion weak, horns and floppy are sets. You can run pick plays all over the court, with different guys, multiple times a possession. It's like calling a post-up a set. You're correct that the Spurs do run pick plays quite often, but it's not longer their main offense. And as you and others are lamenting, most of those end up in pops, not rolls.

http://stats.nba.com/league/team/#!/playtype/roll-man/?sort=Percentile&dir=1

I have absolutely no idea what to make of these, as they seem at best incomplete and at worst just plain wrong. But anyway, it shows the Spurs as the team that posted up the most, iso'd the least and whose roll-men were the fifth-most successful in the NBA. This will be a cool tool when it's up, and it will hopefully answer a ton of questions. But right now, it looks like the Spurs ran the PnR a lot and were great at it, which what no one is saying right now.

Anyway, I posted legit stats showing the ball moving away from the play-makers and into the hands of iso guys. That's not something you can just "disagree" with. It's not just my opinion that those guys stopped initiating plays as much. It's the reality. When you don't have 2013 Parker, you simply aren't going to be able to wreck teams on the PnR like you used to. He can't beat guys to the rim consistently anymore. Manu is also an inconsistent player.


I've never once said Plumlee is the answer to ALL the Spurs problems and with him Spurs will be favorites like you're implying.

No one said this. This is just a shitty strawman. The whole debate has been over which big to pursue this summer. You want Plumlee. I don't hate him but think he needs to be a bench player in favor of a more talented big. People don't seem to understand the talent drain that's likely to come this summer. The team will have to replace that talent before worrying about roles.


you're wanting David West to start because you believe he can become a three point shooter in his 14th season. Just... wow.

And this is a great example of another strawman.


back and watch the games

Or you could actually take the time to research to find or compile the numbers yourself. It's your burden to back up your assertions.


It's not my fault that you're in either denial or don't understand the game as much as you think you do. I know you have a high post count and respond to everything 24/7 but that doesn't mean much tbh... I'll give you the information on the cap but all that takes is research if you have the time on your hands -- which you obviously have a lot of.

I've just never seen a more butt-hurt poster. This is Tho's plus-minus crusade all over again. It's just silly at this point. I'm really not interested in having pissing matches with you. The ignore list works very well. I'm fine talking basketball and disagreeing and whatever. But if you're going to be stuck on kick of following me around and making snide-ass remarks about everything I say, just let me know.

[Chinook]

Nobody is seriously promoting the idea of West as a starter, are they? That would flush the season down the toilet.

I don't think next season will be too exciting unless they get two very good players in free agency. Spurs have way too many holes to fill in one summer, and they have to focus an filling one or two long term rather than filling in three or four temporarily.

[TD 21]

I didn't miss your point. I just said it's irrelevant in my opinion. West thusofar hasn't been a three-point shooter. The Spurs need a three-point shooter as a big. It's not going to help their offense to have guy who can't shoot but can do other things, not unless they get the ball out of Leonard's hands. I think he will become a three-point shooter, though. There's really no reason to not project it, as his shot looks good. I think he'll do whatever the team asks of him. So long as he can knock down open shots at an efficient TS%, I think he's fine. Not ideal by any means, but fine.

You clearly did. You're all over the place. First they don't need a stretch four (Jones and Sullinger shoot threes but aren't legit stretch fours), now they do; which one is it?

I told you, West already said this season that he's not interested in becoming a stretch four. The bottom line is, he fits neither description of the type of player they need next to Aldridge.



:cry It's a fucking game, man. I know it, they know it. You should know it. I want to watch the Spurs win. If they keep Manu and Tim, that's cool. I'll chat about ways they can win with those guys. But if they don't, they don't, and I have plenty of ideas about where I'd like to see them go from there. If you ask me right now, I think it's best that they go. Dunno what you mean about me taking shots, though.

I want to see the Spurs win too and like I said, it's fine to say you'd prefer to see them move on, but even on a message board, shitting on them is fucking disgraceful. They're not just any two players.


This is just an attempt to twist out of your old position. LMA being a 4.5 was never controversial. You were the one saying that as a result of that, he needs a center next to him. My stance this entire time is that they need to add the most talented big they can next to him, regardless of position. If it's Pau, then LMA would play as a PF. If it's Millsap, or Terrence Jones or whatever, then Aldridge would be a center. And yes, I agree that the third big being the opposite of the second big would be nice. Seeing as we've been talking about third bigs like Plumlee and Aldrich, it seems like getting a PF with the second-big salary slot is wise. There aren't many examples of cheap PFs out there who are good enough to play in the short rotation of a contender.

Wrong again. I said he needs both a center and a power forward that can essentially get by as his main big partner depending on match-up. Most talented big is fine if you can get a star. They can't, so fit needs to be the primary concern.


I think you're off your rocker if you think the idea of having LMA play PF is a GS idea. It's not. There are just too many damned examples out there of teams that aren't playing two traditional bigs nowadays. That includes a number of playoffs teams. And I'm not even talking about pulling shit like Animu at the four. We're talking about legit bigs here. LMA/West is hardly a GS-inspired front court. And LMA/Sullinger is significantly less so.

I not only never said that, but I said the exact opposite of that. If it's the Warriors, then obviously Aldridge will need to play more center. If it's the Thunder, then he needs to play more power forward.


I mean, they have exclusive control over three of their top-five bigs. And they are extremely likely to be able to keep a fourth. It's not very hard at all to figure out how to get the other guys if they want to go that route. But just as with Diaw, Parker and Mills are question marks. Unlike with Diaw, there is no one who is playing their position who can score better. Finding guys who can role and score isn't hard. Again, the Spurs have one in Europe right now. But they've have like no success finding guys who can drive and create mismatches. The priority has to be fixing that glaring flaw and finding a new guy to fill their sixth-man roll.

As far as Parker goes, he needs to be part of the Spurs' core the same way Haslem is part of the Heat's core. They can't rely on him, so if they keep him, they're going to have to improve around him and take his good games as gravy.

Obviously, we're all just guessing at this point, but at this writing, I suspect only Aldridge and Marjanovic are back out of the bigs.

Finding guards like that is more difficult (at least, for what they have to offer) than the type of center they could get by with for roughly 20 mpg next to Aldridge. And a lot of the scoring guards available that could fall in their price range don't fit culturally. You could argue they need to broaden their horizons, but they probably won't.

Parker may be a question mark, but he's not playing Haslem's role. He's making big money and he's going to remain as the starting point guard, so by default, he still IS a core player. No matter how much that needs to change for them to contend again, it's more than likely not, so they've got to work around it.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Go back and watch the games. Sure Spurs ran 4 down again at times like they used to, but Spurs ran a lot of the same sets -- they just created different shots because of the different personnel the Spurs had this year ( TD was no longer an effective diver since he had no knees -- he became a dribble hand off option, LA popped more often than rolled because thats who he is, West has never been a diver -- he's a popper who became unguarded as playoffs went along, Diaw became unconfident and was just a dribble hand off option after he popped from PNRs). Leonard had more PnR's called for him as the initial action than any ISO play for him or Aldridge. Most of the ISO plays just developed within the motion offense because no good looks were being generated from the motion offense -- so they just went to the ISO in the desperate second and third action. Go back and watch the games. Not having an effective diver hurt the Spurs' overall offense this year -- it hurt the bench more so because they couldn't generate offense for themselves or create for one another -- having a diver would have opened up better opportunities -- there's no doubt in my mind about that.

People can see all kinds of things by watching the games, there are too many things and too many games, so it's difficult to mindmap everything the Spurs ran without an effective stats tool and the NBA.com page doesn't look very helpful for some reason, so I'm not going to argue what sets the Spurs have played more and what they haven't based solely on my perception. I really don't think that most of the ISO plays have developed within the motion offense, especially in the playoffs, but agree to disagree there, I don't have the stats.

Also, I agree about the rollman for the bench unit but the Spurs would need a good passing PnR PG for this and they don't have anyone. Even if Manu returns, his playmaking hasn't been very good last season.

As for the primary offensive sets, unless they get an elite 3rd star in FA, I'd say the biggest question would be whether to put the ball in Leonard's hands and let him be a mini LeBron, or play him off the ball. The personnel around these two options would have to have vastly different skill sets. IMO if the Spurs don't manage to get someone significant this summer, I'd be happy seeing what Leonard can do if he's given the ball all the time.

If Duncan retires, I think the Spurs should get the best available big that they can to replace him and work around the fit after that, however, looking at the offensive profile of this team :

PG - non 3 point shooter, an OK slasher but declining, decent midrange J, average playmaker
SG - spot up 3 point shooter, everything else well below average
SF - elite post up player, elite midrange J, average slasher, good 3 point shooter
PF/C - elite post up player, elite midrange J, elite offensive rebounder, non diver, non 3pt shooter
PF/C - ?

What's the best skill set that would compliment this team would be? IMO the last thing they need is someone who plays in/close to the paint. They need a Horford/Millsap type much more than a Whiteside type.

[Chinook]

You clearly did. You're all over the place. First they don't need a stretch four (Jones and Sullinger shoot threes but aren't legit stretch fours), now they do; which one is it?

I told you, West already said this season that he's not interested in becoming a stretch four. The bottom line is, he fits neither description of the type of player they need next to Aldridge.

Dude, we're getting to the point that we should just drop this. I'm getting bored of talking about what a "real center" or "legit stretch-four" is. You just come up with polyphyletic examples of what you mean but expect us to agree it makes sense. LMA doesn't need a Ryan Anderson next to him. And the Spurs don't need that as their second-best big. He needs a guy who can give him space when he's in as well as score when he's out. Guys like Sullinger who can spot up, fade, roll, drive, cut and post up make perfect sense. That need that over some lumbering seven-footer. West isn't what they need, but he'll work well enough for them to focus the cap space on a guard and bench big. But he's not my first choice, as the rest of this paragraph confirms.


I want to see the Spurs win too and like I said, it's fine to say you'd prefer to see them move on, but even on a message board, shitting on them is fucking disgraceful. They're not just any two players.

You still need to show how I'm saying anything disrespectful about them. And even if I am, I don't really care. I'm not going to change my sig to "Tim and Manu have earned the right to play as long as they want." just so you can feel like I'm enough of a fan for your standards.


Wrong again. I said he needs both a center and a power forward that can essentially get by as his main big partner depending on match-up. Most talented big is fine if you can get a star. They can't, so fit needs to be the primary concern.

This is just another attempt to twist. The Spurs have one big who's a lock to be on the roster next year. One. They'll need five more. Stop trying to ride the fence with this "They need a PF and a C". They need a lot more than just one of each. But they won't likely be able to afford two of good quality, especially with the large need to fix the back court looming. So they have to be realistic. Then they have to worry about the rest of the rotation's talent level, which goes beyond complimenting Aldridge.


I not only never said that, but I said the exact opposite of that.

Yes, and I meant the opposite of that. And I think you know that. You said that I wanted the Spurs to be the Warriors. That's not true. None of the guys I've suggested would make the Spurs have a similar alignment, and there are too many examples of other teams going for perimeter-oriented PFs starting to act like GS made the blueprint for it.


Obviously, we're all just guessing at this point, but at this writing, I suspect only Aldridge and Marjanovic are back out of the bigs.

That underscores the need to get talent over fit. You get get fit guys for the min or room exception. Even if a guy like Aldrich starts, you'll need a bench big who's more talented than that.


Finding guards like that is more difficult (at least, for what they have to offer) than the type of center they could get by with for roughly 20 mpg next to Aldridge. And a lot of the scoring guards available that could fall in their price range don't fit culturally. You could argue they need to broaden their horizons, but they probably won't.

You're just supporting my point. The Spurs have $19 Million (minus Boban's salary) in your scenario. That's plenty of money to find a good guard. But they have to prioritize that financially. They can't afford to give $6 Million or whatever to a guy like Plumlee (who's not even worth half that). They'll need it all to attack their bigger weaknesses.


Parker may be a question mark, but he's not playing Haslem's role. He's making big money and he's going to remain as the starting point guard, so by default, he still IS a core player. No matter how much that needs to change for them to contend again, it's more than likely not, so they've got to work around it.

This is getting close to semantic turtling. If he's bad to the point that they'll have to work around him, then he's not part of their core. They aren't going to look for guys to compliment him. They're instead going to look for guys to compliment LMA and Kawhi while ignoring Parker. That's what I said in the first place.

[DrSteffo]

Chinook always use a lot of words, you have to give him credit for that. He is often wrong but would never ever admit it...

[objective]

West as a starter or 3 point threat is bizarre and the notion of a three point threat at this point is baffling

I did just barely crack video on Plumlee, beginning with the first half of OKC @ MIL which Plumlee started and small sample size and everything, caveat caveat caveat, and I did have some other things going on so the game didn't have my full attention, but he didn't look like he would have made a difference to be honest. Kind of a stiff, not fluid at all, mostly invisible on both ends. He was a taller, bearded David West. Adams and Kanter looked just as commanding, but I'll watch and pay attention to a few more games.

[MaNu4Tres]

West as a starter or 3 point threat is bizarre and the notion of a three point threat at this point is baffling

I did just barely crack video on Plumlee, beginning with the first half of OKC @ MIL which Plumlee started and small sample size and everything, caveat caveat caveat, and I did have some other things going on so the game didn't have my full attention, but he didn't look like he would have made a difference to be honest. Kind of a stiff, not fluid at all, mostly invisible on both ends. He was a taller, bearded David West. Adams and Kanter looked just as commanding, but I'll watch and pay attention to a few more games.

If you can, go back and look at video when he played for Hornacek, who had an offense that featured many similar sets & PnR action. Watch the ways Hornacek used to use him in the motion offense and in the different variety of PnRs -- his dives made the defense move and rotate ( which is what you want) and if they didn't it was a dunk almost every-time. Kidd didn't run a similar offense and they paid Henson, Monroe and then Jabari got healthy -- Miles was the odd man out from a roster construction perspective. He didn't see much time in an offense that didn't fit his skill-set anyway.

[Chinook]

Chinook always use a lot of words, you have to give him credit for that. He is often wrong but would never ever admit it...

Weren't you the one who tried puling the "I'm a university professor" retort to support your points?

[MaNu4Tres]

West as a starter or 3 point threat is bizarre and the notion of a three point threat at this point is baffling

I did just barely crack video on Plumlee, beginning with the first half of OKC @ MIL which Plumlee started and small sample size and everything, caveat caveat caveat, and I did have some other things going on so the game didn't have my full attention, but he didn't look like he would have made a difference to be honest. Kind of a stiff, not fluid at all, mostly invisible on both ends. He was a taller, bearded David West. Adams and Kanter looked just as commanding, but I'll watch and pay attention to a few more games.

Here's a great video featuring Miles Plumlee (starts at 1:34) in similar sets of Pop. Watch how his diving action opens up shooters or a wide open opportunity around the basket.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nqCzLU6Pkk

[apalisoc_9]

Chinook is confident he can become a three point shooter though going on his 14th year in the league -- so he'd fit in great.
:lmao

[apalisoc_9]

Vying for West as a starter has got to be the worst take ive seen in quite a while and hes unanimously hated in the board for his lack of effort and size. Theres a reason why Indiana was so happy to get rid of him.

The biggest obvious need the dpurs need right now in our starting lineup is a roll man. Starting west and Aldridge together doesnt fit the need. It just exacerrbates the smae problem we already have anf thats lack of diverisity in the offense and poor penetration.

Way too many people cant realize the importance of a rollma to get your penetrators going.

[objective]

I don't think next season will be too exciting unless they get two very good players in free agency. Spurs have way too many holes to fill in one summer, and they have to focus an filling one or two long term rather than filling in three or four temporarily.

This quote doesn't encompass all of your posts but I think I remember enough to disagree strongly IF you think the Spurs have major holes and need another superstar added to have a chance. If I have your position wrong I apologize.

The Spurs are so damn close that even small improvements in personnel or coaching will make a huge difference.

They may not have lost a great number of player games to injury, but last year's spurs team had so much going against it that the 67 games is not just impressive, but in fact informative in ways people don't appreciate.

Kawhi and LMA together make them contenders. Because all around them this season was garbage and things going wrong. Hell, if Pop doesn't have his head up his ass and played Boban against true centers more they not only likely win against OKC they also win 70 games. If Duncan plays like he did against the clippers they move on to Golden State.

Among everything that went wrong:

Duncan after the knee issue was a shadow on the court, be couldn't even finish when open at the rim. The defense faded. He performed very, very poorly. His offense was so bad ... there was no way he could score at even replacement player level. The pressure they added to the rest of the offense was crucially too much.

Green was poor shooting most of the year, worse than anyone would have reasonably expected. And they still won a ton.

Parker while starting the year well devolved into Porker with terrible defense mixed with occasional hero ball porking. A playoff albatross when his defense is factored in. I am not joking or being hyperbolic when I say I think they would be better off with Gary Payton II over Parker. Or at least neutral. He can play pnr with LMA and added a nice set three pointer, but he remains a problem. Despite him, they won a lot of games and should have beaten OKC.

Mill had a bad shooting year and his defense is getting worse with age. They still won a lot.

Manu declined and had his freak injury. They still won a lot and should have been in the conference finals.

Diaw sleepwalking through the season. Losing Pop's faith in the playoffs is probably the end of him. He had his moments in the regular season but could have been more. They still won a lot of games and should have won against OKC.

West played out of position all year and murdered the team against real bigs like OKC or in losses to the bulls and wizards. He did fine most of the regular season but was relied on way too much. They still won a lot and should have beaten OKC.

Anderson did nothing so spectacular that he mattered at all. They still won a lot and should have beaten OKC.

And Pop did his usual crap with the new guys like Boban and Simmons. Whoever is back will be on the verge of a huge season because Pop should finally give them a real chance.

All it will take are tiny gains: more trust in Simmons & Boban, the adding of Bertans, the drafting of someone like Payton II, even to be a back up, and maybe adding a good defender and finisher like Mahinmi.

They are damn close.

[MaNu4Tres]

This quote doesn't encompass all of your posts but I think I remember enough to disagree strongly IF you think the Spurs have major holes and need another superstar added to have a chance. If I have your position wrong I apologize.

The Spurs are so damn close that even small improvements in personnel or coaching will make a huge difference.

They may not have lost a great number of player games to injury, but last year's spurs team had so much going against it that the 67 games is not just impressive, but in fact informative in ways people don't appreciate.

Kawhi and LMA together make them contenders. Because all around them this season was garbage and things going wrong. Hell, if Pop doesn't have his head up his ass and played Boban against true centers more they not only likely win against OKC they also win 70 games. If Duncan plays like he did against the clippers they move on to Golden State.

Among everything that went wrong:

Duncan after the knee issue was a shadow on the court, be couldn't even finish when open at the rim. The defense faded. He performed very, very poorly. His offense was so bad ... there was no way he could score at even replacement player level. The pressure they added to the rest of the offense was crucially too much.

Green was poor shooting most of the year, worse than anyone would have reasonably expected. And they still won a ton.

Parker while starting the year well devolved into Porker with terrible defense mixed with occasional hero ball porking. A playoff albatross when his defense is factored in. I am not joking or being hyperbolic when I say I think they would be better off with Gary Payton II over Parker. Or at least neutral. He can play pnr with LMA and added a nice set three pointer, but he remains a problem. Despite him, they won a lot of games and should have beaten OKC.

Mill had a bad shooting year and his defense is getting worse with age. They still won a lot.

Manu declined and had his freak injury. They still won a lot and should have been in the conference finals.

Diaw sleepwalking through the season. Losing Pop's faith in the playoffs is probably the end of him. He had his moments in the regular season but could have been more. They still won a lot of games and should have won against OKC.

West played out of position all year and murdered the team against real bigs like OKC or in losses to the bulls and wizards. He did fine most of the regular season but was relied on way too much. They still won a lot and should have beaten OKC.

Anderson did nothing so spectacular that he mattered at all. They still won a lot and should have beaten OKC.

And Pop did his usual crap with the new guys like Boban and Simmons. Whoever is back will be on the verge of a huge season because Pop should finally give them a real chance.

All it will take are tiny gains: more trust in Simmons & Boban, the adding of Bertans, the drafting of someone like Payton II, even to be a back up, and maybe adding a good defender and finisher like Mahinmi.

They are damn close.

Agree with a lot of this. Thanks objective.

[objective]

Here's a great video featuring Miles Plumlee (starts at 1:34) in similar sets of Pop. Watch how his diving action opens up shooters or a wide open opportunity around the basket.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nqCzLU6Pkk

That was a lot better.

And I love a diving finisher. Even if it's layups like Splitter. It's part of why I like Milutinov, I think he can do everything Plumlee did in the video.

David Locke has long been an advocate for the importance of finishers, particularly in the PNR. He has his own advanced stat, PAAC, which is Points Above Average Created. It's all about the use of a possession. Curry was historically great with his PAAC number, and Kawhi was 3rd or 4th in the regular season. And PAAC though possibly flawed really shows the value of finishers, like Whiteside or prime Chandler or how Brandon Wright was in Dallas. The really good ones aren't so easy to find. It's not as simple as just telling West to roll, he won't be converting points close the same rate.

At the same time, the three is also a key PAAC value, Korver was top 5 PAAC in the league last year (and Atlanta was great), but fell off and look what happened. This year Redick was near the top and his points creation value was a big part of how they won so much without Griffin.

So by adding a shooter like Bertans and adding anyone who is effective at the rim, be it Milutinov or Plumlee or maybe a Ian if he can hold onto the ball, that would be a big deal for the offense.

[Chinook]

This quote doesn't encompass all of your posts but I think I remember enough to disagree strongly IF you think the Spurs have major holes and need another superstar added to have a chance. If I have your position wrong I apologize.

It's half-and-half. For the right half, I don't think the Spurs are going to be as good next season as they were last season. While I agree they were close to winning against OKC and even that they'd've had a great chance to represent the West in the Finals, I think it's going to be so much harder for them with an older roster, especially since matching Boban would take all of their roster flexibility other than trades and picks. If they bring the band back together I want them to focus on developing the bottom of their roster rather than getting even more old guys.

As to the wrong half, the West comments come from discussions on the post-Tim Spurs. I advocated the team signing the best big they could to play next to LMA without worrying about whether that guy were a center or a PF. Clearly, my first choice wasn't West. The West part was when talking about using the money on guards, I said that I'd be okay with West stop-gapping while the team rebuilt the rest of the rotation. 2017 will be a very good summer for bigs. While there are guys I'd be very happy with signing this summer I don't think it's the top priority. After that was just a bunch of back-and-forths about whether the team sucks with West starting. And they don't. So I don't feel particularly chastened.

[MaNu4Tres]

That was a lot better.

And I love a diving finisher. Even if it's layups like Splitter. It's part of why I like Milutinov, I think he can do everything Plumlee did in the video.

David Locke has long been an advocate for the importance of finishers, particularly in the PNR. He has his own advanced stat, PAAC, which is Points Above Average Created. It's all about the use of a possession. Curry was historically great with his PAAC number, and Kawhi was 3rd or 4th in the regular season. And PAAC though possibly flawed really shows the value of finishers, like Whiteside or prime Chandler or how Brandon Wright was in Dallas. The really good ones aren't so easy to find. It's not as simple as just telling West to roll, he won't be converting points close the same rate.

At the same time, the three is also a key PAAC value, Korver was top 5 PAAC in the league last year (and Atlanta was great), but fell off and look what happened. This year Redick was near the top and his points creation value was a big part of how they won so much without Griffin.

So by adding a shooter like Bertans and adding anyone who is effective at the rim, be it Milutinov or Plumlee or maybe a Ian if he can hold onto the ball, that would be a big deal for the offense.

Glad to have a discussion with someone who gets it. Couldn't agree more with last paragraph especially.

[TD 21]

Dude, we're getting to the point that we should just drop this. I'm getting bored of talking about what a "real center" or "legit stretch-four" is. You just come up with polyphyletic examples of what you mean but expect us to agree it makes sense. LMA doesn't need a Ryan Anderson next to him. And the Spurs don't need that as their second-best big. He needs a guy who can give him space when he's in as well as score when he's out. Guys like Sullinger who can spot up, fade, roll, drive, cut and post up make perfect sense. That need that over some lumbering seven-footer. West isn't what they need, but he'll work well enough for them to focus the cap space on a guard and bench big. But he's not my first choice, as the rest of this paragraph confirms.

"Us", as if you're representative of the board's thoughts. Your lack of awareness and arrogance knows no bounds and blinds you from the reality that you just don't know nearly as much about this sport as you seem to think.


You still need to show how I'm saying anything disrespectful about them. And even if I am, I don't really care. I'm not going to change my sig to "Tim and Manu have earned the right to play as long as they want." just so you can feel like I'm enough of a fan for your standards.


I don't "need to show" shit and I'm not wasting my time digging through the short novels you and her have authored to find the myriad examples.


This is just another attempt to twist. The Spurs have one big who's a lock to be on the roster next year. One. They'll need five more. Stop trying to ride the fence with this "They need a PF and a C". They need a lot more than just one of each. But they won't likely be able to afford two of good quality, especially with the large need to fix the back court looming. So they have to be realistic. Then they have to worry about the rest of the rotation's talent level, which goes beyond complimenting Aldridge.

Can you comprehend anything? I'm talking about the rotation, genius. Here, I'll spell it out: In my opinion (I generally don't put shit like that since it should go without saying), Aldridge and Marjanovic are the only two likely to return and they'll slot in as starting power forward and backup center. That leaves 2 rotation spots.

They could get two, but they'd have to make a trade to also attempt to address the back court. I'm not necessarily advocating this or saying they'd do it, but for example: Trade Diaw, Mills and Simmons for Koufos and Collison, then sign Teletovic.


Yes, and I meant the opposite of that. And I think you know that. You said that I wanted the Spurs to be the Warriors. That's not true. None of the guys I've suggested would make the Spurs have a similar alignment, and there are too many examples of other teams going for perimeter-oriented PFs starting to act like GS made the blueprint for it.

It's only not quite true because it's not possible to replicate that exact team. Still, it's clear you've always wanted something along those lines.


That underscores the need to get talent over fit. You get get fit guys for the min or room exception. Even if a guy like Aldrich starts, you'll need a bench big who's more talented than that.

Out of realistic options, other than Gasol, I don't see much of a discrepancy in terms of talent, which makes fit the priority.

Again, I'm with that thinking, if it's someone like Millsap; not Sullinger, whom I'm not convinced is completely attainable anyway.


You're just supporting my point. The Spurs have $19 Million (minus Boban's salary) in your scenario. That's plenty of money to find a good guard. But they have to prioritize that financially. They can't afford to give $6 Million or whatever to a guy like Plumlee (who's not even worth half that). They'll need it all to attack their bigger weaknesses.

A good guard, who with their current roster will more than likely be a 20 mpg player. Why should that be prioritized over 48 minutes at a big position?

There's slim pickings available at guard. Gordon might be the best option and he's injury prone, up and down and doesn't seem a fit culturally (whether they should broaden their scope or not, I don't see them doing so).


This is getting close to semantic turtling. If he's bad to the point that they'll have to work around him, then he's not part of their core. They aren't going to look for guys to compliment him. They're instead going to look for guys to compliment LMA and Kawhi while ignoring Parker. That's what I said in the first place.

He is, by default. He's not going anywhere and his role isn't changing again, so they'll attempt to build a contender around that.

[SAGirl]

wow that was TD 21 version of going postal. :lol

[dabom]

wow that was TD 21 version of going postal. :lol

[Chinook]

"Us", as if you're representative of the board's thoughts. Your lack of awareness and arrogance knows no bounds and blinds you from the reality that you just don't know nearly as much about this sport as you seem to think.

Us meaning you and me, the two people having the conversation. I'll ignore the rest of this section, as it was just you going off on a misconception.


I don't "need to show" shit and I'm not wasting my time digging through the short novels you and her have authored to find the myriad examples.

Then you should shut the hell up about it. You don't get to make a claim and then act butt-hurt when someone asks you to back it up. For something with "myriad examples", it really shouldn't be time wasted. Or it would take even less time to just retract your statement.


Can you comprehend anything? I'm talking about the rotation, genius.

And no one failed to understand that. The point is that the debate has never been over whether they needed another center AT ALL. It's been about whether they need to prioritize having one next to Aldridge. My stance, going back to my first post in the "Post Tim Center Discussion" thread is that they need to focus on talent first and then look to fill in the pieces. Should you have a Splitter and Diaw? Sure. But if you had to pick one to prioritize, who do you pick? That was the nature of our debate, so this whole "They need both" argument is an attempt to rewrite your view into a mundane, non-controversial take. Like I ever said they shouldn't get one of both.


In my opinion (I generally don't put shit like that since it should go without saying)

And I don't either. However, you're wont to call me arrogant for it, Whether you disagree with that or not, it's baseless to suggest I've ever taken issue with you not qualifying your statements.


Aldridge and Marjanovic are the only two likely to return and they'll slot in as starting power forward and backup center. That leaves 2 rotation spots.

They could get two, but they'd have to make a trade to also attempt to address the back court. I'm not necessarily advocating this or saying they'd do it, but for example: Trade Diaw, Mills and Simmons for Koufos and Collison, then sign Teletovic.

They trade the two guys currently slotted in a backup PG and backup SG for one guard and then use every other ounce of reasonable roster flexibility to lock in bigs? I don't think that makes any sense. The last thing the back court needs is a legit hole with only the room exception and 29 to fill it. Not even getting into the talent part of it, since you aren't necessarily advocating for it. In any event, that trade and its issues underscore why "both" isn't a very realistic answer to the second-big question. They just end up with a much weaker roster trying to fill holes rather than target talent.


Out of realistic options, other than Gasol, I don't see much of a discrepancy in terms of talent, which makes fit the priority.

Again, I'm with that thinking, if it's someone like Millsap; not Sullinger, whom I'm not convinced is completely attainable anyway.

Unless you retreat into the nebulous world of "just my opinion", I don't think you can really say that Plumlee, Sullinger, Johnson, Aldrich and the other non Pau or max free-agent bigs are close talent-wise. There's just too much data out there. It seems at least as likely that the Spurs or some other team will pull out of the rubble another big who can do what those guys did with just a min deal. No idea if it will be Sacre or Sims or Greg Smith or Ndoye or Udoh or Okafor or who knows? Neither Plumlee or Aldrich was picked up with their teams expected them to be the answer to their problems.


A good guard, who with their current roster will more than likely be a 20 mpg player. Why should that be prioritized over 48 minutes at a big position?

I think it's disingenuous to claim that a high-caliber guard would be a 20mpg player given the state of the team's perimeter rotation. A premium guy would take Manu's minutes plus a good deal of Patty's or Parker and some of Anderson's along with some PF minutes as Kyle moved over there to fill in that missing player. We're not talking about spending the money on Randy Foye here. And if we are only talking about Gordon, we are talking about leaving some money to spend on a bargain big like Plumlee anyway, which offers another permutation rather than "both". It also probably means that a guy like West is starting, but of course, people don't want to hear that.

[TD 21]

Then you should shut the hell up about it. You don't get to make a claim and then act butt-hurt when someone asks you to back it up. For something with "myriad examples", it really shouldn't be time wasted. Or it would take even less time to just retract your statement.

What a predictable, cliche response. I get to do whatever the hell I want. I'm not the only one who's seen it; others have called you on it.


And no one failed to understand that. The point is that the debate has never been over whether they needed another center AT ALL. It's been about whether they need to prioritize having one next to Aldridge. My stance, going back to my first post in the "Post Tim Center Discussion" thread is that they need to focus on talent first and then look to fill in the pieces. Should you have a Splitter and Diaw? Sure. But if you had to pick one to prioritize, who do you pick? That was the nature of our debate, so this whole "They need both" argument is an attempt to rewrite your view into a mundane, non-controversial take. Like I ever said they shouldn't get one of both.

You clearly failed to understand it when you said "they'll need five more" and "they need a lot more than just one of each". You see it as an either or proposition and favor a power forward because you claim that's the best talent attainable. I see it as both potentially and think Gasol withstanding, the talent is close enough, which makes fit the priority.


They trade the two guys currently slotted in a backup PG and backup SG for one guard and then use every other ounce of reasonable roster flexibility to lock in bigs? I don't think that makes any sense. The last thing the back court needs is a legit hole with only the room exception and 29 to fill it. Not even getting into the talent part of it, since you aren't necessarily advocating for it. In any event, that trade and its issues underscore why "both" isn't a very realistic answer to the second-big question. They just end up with a much weaker roster trying to fill holes rather than target talent.

Again, it's an example of a way to upgrade point guard, while still bringing in two rotation bigs.

Or, they could look to get a legit starting big, like Gasol and upgrade both guard spots . . .

If Dunn falls to six and the Pelicans take him, I'd offer Diaw, Mills, 29 and if necessary Simmons, for Holiday and Gee (if Simmons has to be thrown in).

Sure, the Jazz could offer something like 12, Burke/Neto and maybe some third minor piece, but the Pelicans are desperate to win now, Demps' job has been rumored to be in jeopardy for a long time and he has Spurs ties. He might favor the more immediate help.


Unless you retreat into the nebulous world of "just my opinion", I don't think you can really say that Plumlee, Sullinger, Johnson, Aldrich and the other non Pau or max free-agent bigs are close talent-wise. There's just too much data out there. It seems at least as likely that the Spurs or some other team will pull out of the rubble another big who can do what those guys did with just a min deal. No idea if it will be Sacre or Sims or Greg Smith or Ndoye or Udoh or Okafor or who knows? Neither Plumlee or Aldrich was picked up with their teams expected them to be the answer to their problems.

Again, either ignoring or not comprehending what was said. I'm not entirely sure Sullinger is attainable given the Spurs' situation and Johnson could easily not come available either.

I'll use West as an example. Let's say he opts out and wants to return, but it'll take $5M to re-sign him. Let's say it'll also take thereabouts to sign Aldrich or Plumlee. Sure, West is still more talented, but it's close enough at this point that I'd rather what I believe to be a superior fit.


I think it's disingenuous to claim that a high-caliber guard would be a 20mpg player given the state of the team's perimeter rotation. A premium guy would take Manu's minutes plus a good deal of Patty's or Parker and some of Anderson's along with some PF minutes as Kyle moved over there to fill in that missing player. We're not talking about spending the money on Randy Foye here. And if we are only talking about Gordon, we are talking about leaving some money to spend on a bargain big like Plumlee anyway, which offers another permutation rather than "both". It also probably means that a guy like West is starting, but of course, people don't want to hear that.

I think a lot of you make the mistake of conflating what you'd like to see with that they'd actually do. Parker and Green aren't going anywhere and Mills probably isn't either. That leaves about 20 (maybe a few more with Green playing some small forward) mpg in the back court.

[Chinook]

What a predictable, cliche response. I get to do whatever the hell I want. I'm not the only one who's seen it; others have called you on it.

Bitch-made, man. Can't back up something that should be easy to demonstrate but still think you can call others out.


You clearly failed to understand it when you said "they'll need five more" and "they need a lot more than just one of each". You see it as an either or proposition and favor a power forward because you claim that's the best talent attainable. I see it as both potentially and think Gasol withstanding, the talent is close enough, which makes fit the priority.

I'll get into this on the a couple of quotes, but you're not going to find a way to twist out of this. We all knew they'd need multiple guys. They'll need a ton of new players if the exodus we're talking about comes to pass. So when we are debating, we are talking about priorities. You're trying to say that I only want a PF while you want both, and that's just stupid. I want both AND a guard, but there's no way that's reasonable to assume, so I have to prioritize what I want the team to get. That you're trying to not do that doesn't make you reasonable, it makes you seem unable to make a point. They just don't have the money to address all of their potential holes (ignoring the idea that they shouldn't even want to split the little room they have in the first place).


Again, it's an example of a way to upgrade point guard, while still bringing in two rotation bigs.

It's a poor use of resources that has the added issue of threatening their ability to get anyone of note in 2017. If they are going to be re-upping Boban, then the need to spend on two bigs is greatly reduced. That is even more true since you're only calling these guys rotation-caliber, which implies that the Spurs have spent so much precious flexibility on guys who are expected to just turn out average performance. That's even worse than last year's prognosis.


Or, they could look to get a legit starting big, like Gasol and upgrade both guard spots . . .

I already touched on this in the Holiday thread. I don't think it's realistic. If Diaw has positive value to any team, then dumping him for an asset makes the most sense. We'll know in a couple of weeks, but likely the Spurs won't get anyone good unless Diaw's deal changes.


Again, either ignoring or not comprehending what was said. I'm not entirely sure Sullinger is attainable given the Spurs' situation and Johnson could easily not come available either.

Had nothing to do with what I said. Of course, it's possible but extremely unlikely that neither of those Boston bigs are attainable. But they are free agents who aren't max guys. They are targets. If you literally think only bad players will be available, then that's your right, but I'm not getting on that bus with you.


I'll use West as an example. Let's say he opts out and wants to return, but it'll take $5M to re-sign him.

Let me stop you right there. The answer is no. Only way West could be in line for that money is if Tim returns while Boban leaves. The benefit of West is that he's cheap and won't embarrass himself as a starter. I'm not ear-marking money to West until the more important free-agent targets are spoken for. Room exception? Maybe, because that requires some trust between the team and the player. Actual cap space? Nope.

Contrived examples where one guy is younger and may still have room to improve aren't really a fair way to demonstrate the point. If you drop in someone like Ilyasova instead, then I think the debate makes more sense. I take Ersan without even thinking about it, but maybe you still think the center is the right choice. That's a legitimate debate where both sides could discuss and maybe come to an understanding. But if you try to go, "I want both", it's like someone running up the court and shooting the ball without dribbling.


I think a lot of you make the mistake of conflating what you'd like to see with that they'd actually do. Parker and Green aren't going anywhere and Mills probably isn't either. That leaves about 20 (maybe a few more with Green playing some small forward) mpg in the back court.

No, the mistake is that people think that everyone wants to talk about what the Spurs are going to do rather than what we want them to do. In my case, I don't care what the Spurs decide to do. I can't affect it. My statements aren't predictions. This is clear when people are talking about Bonner, who probably has a job a couple more seasons. But conveniently, it gets forgotten when someone wants an easy argument to attack. I mean, in this very post, you suggested trading Patty even though Pop said he was never going to do that.

Anyway, I don't agree that Pop wouldn't find significant minutes for a high-level guard. They'd get PG minutes if only because Parker is getting too old to play 30ish minutes while Patty is too inconsistent to warrant the remaining 22 or so minutes a game. And then adding in that if that Green will inevitably be involved in a season-long battle with that guard for the starting spot. And you have to add in small-ball with is a near certainty if the Spurs get that guard and don't get multiple rotation bigs. Now does that mean that a guy like Lou Williams would be blowing up the rotation? I was going to say no, but he probably challenges Patty pretty hard core. Anyway, a guy like Gordon would probably get all of the minutes his body could handle, as he just fit so many different combinations of lineups.

[Chinook]

Speaking of under-the-radar bigs to try to get for cheap, I wonder what it would take to keep the Magic from matching on Dedmon. He's not a seven-footer, but he is a defender/roller, and he has a pull-up that makes him dangerous on the short-roll. The Magic gave up O'Quinn for a song last summer, and they might do the same for Dewayne. But it's also possible that the team cleared so much front-court salary (Harris and Frye in addition to letting Q'Quinn walk) this past season so that they could match any offer.

[TD 21]

Bitch-made, man. Can't back up something that should be easy to demonstrate but still think you can call others out.

Call it what you want, but I told you, I'm not wasting my time. But you know full well you have. What's worse, you don't have the balls to own up to something on a message board.


I'll get into this on the a couple of quotes, but you're not going to find a way to twist out of this. We all knew they'd need multiple guys. They'll need a ton of new players if the exodus we're talking about comes to pass. So when we are debating, we are talking about priorities. You're trying to say that I only want a PF while you want both, and that's just stupid. I want both AND a guard, but there's no way that's reasonable to assume, so I have to prioritize what I want the team to get. That you're trying to not do that doesn't make you reasonable, it makes you seem unable to make a point. They just don't have the money to address all of their potential holes (ignoring the idea that they shouldn't even want to split the little room they have in the first place).

Once again, out to lunch. I'm not trying to twist out of anything; you clearly didn't get it. The only time I've discussed anything having to do with the deep bench this off season, is when I said I wouldn't mind Robinson as a fifth big.

Bullshit. They have the money to potentially address everything, but it'll take some creativity and frankly, some settling. I didn't say they'd necessarily get high quality.


It's a poor use of resources that has the added issue of threatening their ability to get anyone of note in 2017. If they are going to be re-upping Boban, then the need to spend on two bigs is greatly reduced. That is even more true since you're only calling these guys rotation-caliber, which implies that the Spurs have spent so much precious flexibility on guys who are expected to just turn out average performance. That's even worse than last year's prognosis.

Maybe so, but it's an example of addressing three quarters of the potential rotation holes, something you seem to think is impossible.

Marjanovic is probably a match-up dependent player, which means it's unlikely he's anything more than a fourth big.


Had nothing to do with what I said. Of course, it's possible but extremely unlikely that neither of those Boston bigs are attainable. But they are free agents who aren't max guys. They are targets. If you literally think only bad players will be available, then that's your right, but I'm not getting on that bus with you.

Had everything to do with what you said. You specifically lumped the Celtics bigs in with the other two.

So if you think players suck, then they must, right? You're one of those people who thinks 90% of the players in the league suck, even though you clearly don't watch much.


Let me stop you right there. The answer is no. Only way West could be in line for that money is if Tim returns while Boban leaves. The benefit of West is that he's cheap and won't embarrass himself as a starter. I'm not ear-marking money to West until the more important free-agent targets are spoken for. Room exception? Maybe, because that requires some trust between the team and the player. Actual cap space? Nope.

Contrived examples where one guy is younger and may still have room to improve aren't really a fair way to demonstrate the point. If you drop in someone like Ilyasova instead, then I think the debate makes more sense. I take Ersan without even thinking about it, but maybe you still think the center is the right choice. That's a legitimate debate where both sides could discuss and maybe come to an understanding. But if you try to go, "I want both", it's like someone running up the court and shooting the ball without dribbling.

Again, no reading comprehension. I'm not suggesting they'd give West that. I'm saying, he could easily opt out and be looking for (and possibly command) that on the open market.

:lol If they're "contrived examples", then when you brought them up? Besides, all of those centers have been in the league a minute and more or less are what they are.

I get that Ilyasova is just an example, so I'll play along: They could have both with him, as he'd replace Diaw, thus leaving the cap space untouched.


No, the mistake is that people think that everyone wants to talk about what the Spurs are going to do rather than what we want them to do. In my case, I don't care what the Spurs decide to do. I can't affect it. My statements aren't predictions. This is clear when people are talking about Bonner, who probably has a job a couple more seasons. But conveniently, it gets forgotten when someone wants an easy argument to attack. I mean, in this very post, you suggested trading Patty even though Pop said he was never going to do that.

Anyway, I don't agree that Pop wouldn't find significant minutes for a high-level guard. They'd get PG minutes if only because Parker is getting too old to play 30ish minutes while Patty is too inconsistent to warrant the remaining 22 or so minutes a game. And then adding in that if that Green will inevitably be involved in a season-long battle with that guard for the starting spot. And you have to add in small-ball with is a near certainty if the Spurs get that guard and don't get multiple rotation bigs. Now does that mean that a guy like Lou Williams would be blowing up the rotation? I was going to say no, but he probably challenges Patty pretty hard core. Anyway, a guy like Gordon would probably get all of the minutes his body could handle, as he just fit so many different combinations of lineups.

I'm well aware that most talk about what they want them to do, which is fine, but it's often completely unrealistic. I usually speak within' the confines of what I think they'd do.

I doubt Pop meant that literally and even if he did, things change. Like I said though, I think Mills is likely to be back, but I also think they're at the point now where they'd move him in the right trade.

It depends on the guard. I think Gordon is unlikely, as is anyone of that caliber. Unfortunately, they'll probably end up with Vasquez or someone of his ilk.

[Chinook]

Call it what you want

I know, that's why I called it bitch-made. It isn't getting any less so as you continue to try to find a way to come out of this not looking like you got caught pulling something out of your ass. There's nothing wrong with me asking you to back up a statement you made about me. And you know that. You refusing to do so isn't defensible, and for you to try to call me out as arrogant and cliched or say that I can't admit when I'm wrong when you'd do this is just so much worse.


Once again, out to lunch. I'm not trying to twist out of anything; you clearly didn't get it. The only time I've discussed anything having to do with the deep bench this off season, is when I said I wouldn't mind Robinson as a fifth big.

You're acting as if you aren't the only one talking about this bench. I was saying "They need a really good PF to be their second big next to LMA". Even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you always meant it, you're retort was "They'll need a good PF and a good C". And my retort to that was, "They'll actually need a whole new rotation." You're the one who changed the scope, so when someone else changes it to point how just how much work there is to be done, it rings hypocritical for you to try calling them out. They'll need to figure out their starters. And they'll need to figure how how to get good production from their bench. AND they'll have to find deep-bench guys who can fill in as necessary while still hopefully having upside. For all we know, the deep-bench may end up being a factor in their moves. Like having Bonner back might discourage them from signing another stretch-four, while picking up Okafor for the min might make them think they don't need another "true center". That's a fascinating but separate discussion, and it doesn't change the fact that "both" is just an attempt to sit on the fence at best and strawman me at worst.


Again, no reading comprehension. I'm not suggesting they'd give West that. I'm saying, he could easily opt out and be looking for (and possibly command) that on the open market.

I stopped you because I said West wasn't equal to Plumlee or Aldrich for the same price. If we were talking about those guys for the min, I'd be more than happy bringing them on board. And if we were talking West for cap space, I'd say no. Ilyasova is at least a 20-something player who may be had for a song. And he's very arguably better than the centers we were talking about, though he's crazy inconsistent. As far as what contract they'd get, it's actually not as simple as you're making it out to be, especially since you assume Boban returns. You have Plumlee, Boban and Ersan all taking up about $5 Million each, and that leaves no room to do anything else in free agency. I can understand the argument that they represent good value for that total, but the team still has it's major weakness, and I would totally call that an overreaction to the OKC series. Now, if you only bring in one of those guys and keep Boban or let Boban go and get both, you can try convincing Gordon to come over on a 1+1 deal with $9 Million or so in cap space. But then, you're not really "bothing" anymore.


I'm well aware that most talk about what they want them to do, which is fine, but it's often completely unrealistic. I usually speak within' the confines of what I think they'd do.

And yet, we've managed to have how many debates without me critiquing your lack of imagination? If that's how you want to see it, that's fine. But I don't think it's any more virtuous to be realistic in your expectations as a fan. Our job is to follow the teams like crazy; realism is what the front-office guys get paid to do.


Unfortunately, they'll probably end up with Vasquez or someone of his ilk.

I really don't disagree, though I think he'd be a horrible fit next to Anderson. Rather have Neal back for cheap than mess with lower-tier PG types.

[tholdren]

This quote doesn't encompass all of your posts but I think I remember enough to disagree strongly IF you think the Spurs have major holes and need another superstar added to have a chance. If I have your position wrong I apologize.

The Spurs are so damn close that even small improvements in personnel or coaching will make a huge difference.

They may not have lost a great number of player games to injury, but last year's spurs team had so much going against it that the 67 games is not just impressive, but in fact informative in ways people don't appreciate.

Kawhi and LMA together make them contenders. Because all around them this season was garbage and things going wrong. Hell, if Pop doesn't have his head up his ass and played Boban against true centers more they not only likely win against OKC they also win 70 games. If Duncan plays like he did against the clippers they move on to Golden State.

Among everything that went wrong:

Duncan after the knee issue was a shadow on the court, be couldn't even finish when open at the rim. The defense faded. He performed very, very poorly. His offense was so bad ... there was no way he could score at even replacement player level. The pressure they added to the rest of the offense was crucially too much.

Green was poor shooting most of the year, worse than anyone would have reasonably expected. And they still won a ton.

Parker while starting the year well devolved into Porker with terrible defense mixed with occasional hero ball porking. A playoff albatross when his defense is factored in. I am not joking or being hyperbolic when I say I think they would be better off with Gary Payton II over Parker. Or at least neutral. He can play pnr with LMA and added a nice set three pointer, but he remains a problem. Despite him, they won a lot of games and should have beaten OKC.

Mill had a bad shooting year and his defense is getting worse with age. They still won a lot.

Manu declined and had his freak injury. They still won a lot and should have been in the conference finals.

Diaw sleepwalking through the season. Losing Pop's faith in the playoffs is probably the end of him. He had his moments in the regular season but could have been more. They still won a lot of games and should have won against OKC.

West played out of position all year and murdered the team against real bigs like OKC or in losses to the bulls and wizards. He did fine most of the regular season but was relied on way too much. They still won a lot and should have beaten OKC.

Anderson did nothing so spectacular that he mattered at all. They still won a lot and should have beaten OKC.

And Pop did his usual crap with the new guys like Boban and Simmons. Whoever is back will be on the verge of a huge season because Pop should finally give them a real chance.

All it will take are tiny gains: more trust in Simmons & Boban, the adding of Bertans, the drafting of someone like Payton II, even to be a back up, and maybe adding a good defender and finisher like Mahinmi.

They are damn close.
They are and they are not close. It's the difference between a series and a regular season game(s).

1. First and foremost the spurs don't have a leader of the team. Some times its Tim, other times it's KL, then it's LMA. That bit them in the butt this playoff. Spurs STILL don't know who the "torch" is being passed to. That's a problem.

2. They don't have anyone that attacks the basket and controls the pace of the game. This doesn't matter in the regular season. It does against three point shooting teams in a series. You either need another overpriced scorer, or you need KL/LMA to change their games.

3. Athletes - Spurs don't have em. Playing against OKC showed. No one rebounded tough, no one went hard at 50-50 balls. This has been a Spurs problem. Not different than much of the rest of the league really, but no one in SA gets developed into an athlete of one with any type of dexterity/agility. Spurs bigs play slow, spurs perimeter players can't drive. WTF?

4. hunger/heart - Didnt really see the want or much of a fight the past few years. Could be coaching. Could be the pussies the Spurs bring in. Could be pop lets them live life too much and not spend enough time in the gym. Manu didnt even seem like Manu this playoffs.

Spurs will be a decent regular season team, but until they get some players with balls, then they'll drop out of the 1-2 round.

[objective]

They are and they are not close. It's the difference between a series and a regular season game(s).

1. First and foremost the spurs don't have a leader of the team. Some times its Tim, other times it's KL, then it's LMA. That bit them in the butt this playoff. Spurs STILL don't know who the "torch" is being passed to. That's a problem.

2. They don't have anyone that attacks the basket and controls the pace of the game. This doesn't matter in the regular season. It does against three point shooting teams in a series. You either need another overpriced scorer, or you need KL/LMA to change their games.

3. Athletes - Spurs don't have em. Playing against OKC showed. No one rebounded tough, no one went hard at 50-50 balls. This has been a Spurs problem. Not different than much of the rest of the league really, but no one in SA gets developed into an athlete of one with any type of dexterity/agility. Spurs bigs play slow, spurs perimeter players can't drive. WTF?

4. hunger/heart - Didnt really see the want or much of a fight the past few years. Could be coaching. Could be the pussies the Spurs bring in. Could be pop lets them live life too much and not spend enough time in the gym. Manu didnt even seem like Manu this playoffs.

Spurs will be a decent regular season team, but until they get some players with balls, then they'll drop out of the 1-2 round.

1. The leadership thing is overrated. Curry couldn't even win finals MVP last year and often has to be bailed out by Thompson. The more important leadership is coaching, and when the coach hamstrings his own team, that's a bigger deal.

2. They could have athletes to attack the rim, like Simmons, but they don't play them. Also, what big time scorers out there will supposedly attack the rim? Not Eric Gordon. Derozan for the max with terrible efficiency? Spurs will be fine if the coaching is fine (it won't be). Parker is finished but his issues can't be addressed until the coaches want to.

3 & 4. They could have the athletes, easily. They could play Simmons. They could have played Boban, while not fast was strong. They could draft a player like Gary Payton II. They could bring over Milutinov who would improve the athleticism of the old midget frontcourt. They could sit Kyle Anderson who plays entitled and lazy and doesn't hustle his three toed claws like he should. Hell, they can bring over Hanga or Dangubic. Cutting a poor shooting but hard playing Butler for tired Martin was a bad choice, but it was a decelerate choice.

Getting athletic, and adding hustle and heart isn't hard or expensive for the Spurs. The problem is the will of the powers that be. Getting hustle, heart & athleticism doesn't require max salary additions. It takes good, simple choices.

All these things are doable on whatever caproom they end up with, regardless of who retires. That doesn't make them far away, it makes them close, until they choose to be far away.

[Kawhitstorm]

Not having an effective diver hurt the Spurs' overall offense this year -- it hurt the bench more so because they couldn't generate offense for themselves or create for one another -- having a diver would have opened up better opportunities -- there's no doubt in my mind about that.

Forget "divers", had Tim been able to finish POINT BLANK layups then the Spurs would have won Gm 2. The team doesn't need an elite roll man like Tiago, just an average big that can finish at the rim will do on offense. LMA/Kawhi make their living outside the paint & issue arises when the 5 man doubles LMA on the block but all you need is a big that can flash to the rim & finish. Cole Aldrich is a guy that can give you 20 quality minutes on BOTH ends.

Kawhi needs a point guard that can spread the floor more so than a roll man, that's the reason the Patty/Kawhi two-man lineup had a ridiculous ORtg. For example, Carmelo didn't fare well w/ Amare but he had his best season when the Knicks surrounded him w/ shooters. Kawhi/Porker is also a bad fit like Carmelo/Iverson, PATFO need to get Conley who's the modern day Billups.

[MaNu4Tres]

Forget "divers", had Tim been able to finish POINT BLANK layups then the Spurs would have won Gm 2. The team doesn't need an elite roll man like Tiago, just an average big that can finish at the rim will do on offense. LMA/Kawhi make their living outside the paint & issue arises when the 5 man doubles LMA on the block but all you need is a big that can flash to the rim & finish. Cole Aldrich is a guy that can give you 20 quality minutes on BOTH ends.

Kawhi needs a point guard that can spread the floor more so than a roll man, that's the reason the Patty/Kawhi two-man lineup had a ridiculous ORtg. For example, Carmelo didn't fare well w/ Amare but he had his best season when the Knicks surrounded him w/ shooters. Kawhi/Porker is also a bad fit like Carmelo/Iverson, PATFO need to get Conley who's the modern day Billups.

You obviously don't understand the significance of an effective diver. In the games that matter vs. the elite teams, they will not double Aldridge -- especially OKC and W's. The bad teams, during the season may, but why make personnel decisions based on the JV games the Spurs will play?

They need an effective diver to have a higher ceiling as a team-- I've explained why many times to you but you obviously just don't understand. I obviously can't help you.

[AFMadison]

You obviously don't understand the significance of an effective diver. In the games that matter vs. the elite teams, they will not double Aldridge -- especially OKC and W's. The bad teams, during the season may, but why make personnel decisions based on the JV games the Spurs will play?

They need an effective diver to have a higher ceiling as a team-- I've explained why many times to you but you obviously just don't understand. I obviously can't help you.
Your arguing with a guy that has hardly any basketball IQ. Spurs need drivers.

[Kawhitstorm]

You obviously don't understand the significance of an effective diver. In the games that matter vs. the elite teams, they will not double Aldridge -- especially OKC and W's. The bad teams, during the season may, but why make personnel decisions based on the JV games the Spurs will play?.

:lmao

Did you miss the OKC series when they ignored Tim (after they found out he couldn't make a layup in Gm 2::lol) & started doubling LMA by sending help LATE (they started overplaying his right shoulder & sent help when he turned over his left shoulder for layup/jump-hook)

Kerr used a similar tactic in the 3rd matchup when Bogut was available (he was out when LMA pounded 'em in the paint), that's actually how LMA dislocated his pinky.

It's basically what teams use to employ against Tim & he would often times dump the ball off to Admiral for a jam.

A roll man would be a luxury, the MAIN priority for the team is a point guard that excels running PnPs, plays off the ball & can check their own man. Even 2014 Porker wasn't able to utilize Tiago despite Carlisle not helping off shooters, PATFO could sign PRIME Amare & it wouldn't make much of a difference w/ Porker at the helm since team would dare him to beat them like OKC.

Conley excelled playing w/ a PnP center (Gasol) & also playing off the ball while Z-Bo went to work so he would be the most ideal fit especially since he can check his man. PATFO would have to dump Porker for this to happen so I'm all for it even though he would be getting overpaid.:lol

[Chinook]

:lmao

Did you miss the OKC series when they ignored Tim (after they found out he couldn't make a layup in Gm 2::lol) & started doubling LMA by sending help LATE (they started overplaying his right shoulder & sent help when he turned over his left shoulder for layup/jump-hook)

Kerr used a similar tactic in the 3rd matchup when Bogut was available (he was out when LMA pounded 'em in the paint), that's actually how LMA dislocated his pinky.

It's basically what teams use to employ against Tim & he would often times dump the ball off to Admiral for a jam.

A roll man would be a luxury, the MAIN priority for the team is a point guard that excels running PnPs, plays off the ball & can check their own man. Even 2014 Porker wasn't able to utilize Tiago despite Carlisle not helping off shooters, PATFO could sign PRIME Amare & it wouldn't make much of a difference w/ Porker at the helm since team would dare him to beat them like OKC.

Conley excelled playing w/ a PnP center (Gasol) & also playing off the ball while Z-Bo went to work so he would be the most ideal fit especially since he can check his man. PATFO would have to dump Porker for this to happen so I'm all for it even though he would be getting overpaid.:lol

I do think people are totally underestimating the extent to which the Spurs' decline in PnR play has to do with Parker and Manu getting older. I posted the stats showing how those two aren't facilitating as much as they used to (especially in the playoffs), and they were "disagreed with". I just find it odd that people are demanding Plumlee and Aldrich when they want Miles due to his time playing with Dragic and Cole from his time playing with CP3. I bet that if the Clippers have to find a new backup center that they'll be able to get another guy who will good great as a roll man.

You get a guard who can challenge on a drive, and your PnR offense will look fantastic. When it's just old Tony trying to get by guys, you won't see great play there very often.

[Kawhitstorm]

I just find it odd that people are demanding Plumlee and Aldrich when they want Miles due to his time playing with Dragic and Cole from his time playing with CP3. I bet that if the Clippers have to find a new backup center that they'll be able to get another guy who will good great as a roll man.

I actually wouldn't mind Aldrich as a 20 minute type guy, unlike Plumlee he actually has post moves (which he displayed when he was w/ the Knicks) & an above average rim protector ala Mozgov. (Plumlee is essentially Baynes 2.0 & a strictly PnR player)

[Chinook]

I actually wouldn't mind Aldrich as a 20 minute type guy, unlike Plumlee he actually has post moves (which he displayed when he was w/ the Knicks) & an above average rim protector. (Plumlee is essentially Baynes 2.0)

To me, it's not about wanting them or not wanting them. It's about people putting too much emphasis on them. Having a guy who runs to the rim isn't really that useful in a lineup where players post up so much. And it is in no way a bigger need than a guard who can penetrate. It's funny that when Parker and Manu were in their primes, the Spurs were able to find a bunch of rolling bigs. Now that those guys are old, PATFO apparently lost its touch.

[TD 21]

I know, that's why I called it bitch-made. It isn't getting any less so as you continue to try to find a way to come out of this not looking like you got caught pulling something out of your ass. There's nothing wrong with me asking you to back up a statement you made about me. And you know that. You refusing to do so isn't defensible, and for you to try to call me out as arrogant and cliched or say that I can't admit when I'm wrong when you'd do this is just so much worse.

:lol Resorting to playing internet tough guy and thinking I care what people on a message board think.

There's nothing wrong with you asking and with me tell you I'm not wasting my time.


You're acting as if you aren't the only one talking about this bench. I was saying "They need a really good PF to be their second big next to LMA". Even giving you the benefit of the doubt that you always meant it, you're retort was "They'll need a good PF and a good C". And my retort to that was, "They'll actually need a whole new rotation." You're the one who changed the scope, so when someone else changes it to point how just how much work there is to be done, it rings hypocritical for you to try calling them out. They'll need to figure out their starters. And they'll need to figure how how to get good production from their bench. AND they'll have to find deep-bench guys who can fill in as necessary while still hopefully having upside. For all we know, the deep-bench may end up being a factor in their moves. Like having Bonner back might discourage them from signing another stretch-four, while picking up Okafor for the min might make them think they don't need another "true center". That's a fascinating but separate discussion, and it doesn't change the fact that "both" is just an attempt to sit on the fence at best and strawman me at worst.

I thought you weren't committed to a specific position and wanted the best talent? Stop flip flopping and just admit that you think Aldridge is a center because he has the physical tools for it.

I didn't change shit. I said they need something like co-second bigs alongside Aldridge. I didn't say it would be easy or that they'd necessarily be able to get it this off season, but that should be the goal. Not committing significant long term money to mediocrity that doesn't solve anything and pigeonholes them to Aldridge essentially being a full time center.


I stopped you because I said West wasn't equal to Plumlee or Aldrich for the same price. If we were talking about those guys for the min, I'd be more than happy bringing them on board. And if we were talking West for cap space, I'd say no. Ilyasova is at least a 20-something player who may be had for a song. And he's very arguably better than the centers we were talking about, though he's crazy inconsistent. As far as what contract they'd get, it's actually not as simple as you're making it out to be, especially since you assume Boban returns. You have Plumlee, Boban and Ersan all taking up about $5 Million each, and that leaves no room to do anything else in free agency. I can understand the argument that they represent good value for that total, but the team still has it's major weakness, and I would totally call that an overreaction to the OKC series. Now, if you only bring in one of those guys and keep Boban or let Boban go and get both, you can try convincing Gordon to come over on a 1+1 deal with $9 Million or so in cap space. But then, you're not really "bothing" anymore.

Well, you're a fool if you think there's any chance of West opting in. The only reason players in his position (playing for well under market value) have player options, is to secure more guaranteed money in the event of a career altering injury.

There's no reason to think he won't cost significantly more to keep, if he doesn't retire.

In your scenario, with Plumlee, Marjanovic and Ilyasova, they'd obviously have to go the trade route in the back court.

I don't see it as an overreaction. Odds are Durant stays for at least another season, so that match-up issue isn't going anywhere. The vast majority are consumed with the Warriors, but seem to forget that they've got to beat either the Thunder or Clippers just to get to them.


And yet, we've managed to have how many debates without me critiquing your lack of imagination? If that's how you want to see it, that's fine. But I don't think it's any more virtuous to be realistic in your expectations as a fan. Our job is to follow the teams like crazy; realism is what the front-office guys get paid to do.

It's not about a "lack of imagination" or being "virtuous"; I just think it's pointless. There's nothing wrong with saying what you'd like to see happen, but having long, drawn out debates over things that have no chance of happening, is a waste of time.


I really don't disagree, though I think he'd be a horrible fit next to Anderson. Rather have Neal back for cheap than mess with lower-tier PG types.

Not really. Vasquez has become a decent three-point shooter in recent seasons and would bring more ball handling/play making than Neal. A Neal-Mills back court would be even worse.

[tholdren]

West is as bad as martin. Has no place in the playoffs. Both of them should walk