Do the Spurs need to change the starting back court?

[ElNono]

Something I just mentioned in another thread, but I think it's worth discussing on it's own.

When the focal point of the starters' offense was Tony and Tim, it made sense to have Danny and Kawhi spacing the floor and a relative non-factor offensively like Tiago doing blue collar work.

But now that the offense will be largely focused on LMA and Kawhi, would the Spurs be better served starting somebody like Patty to space the floor instead of a ball dominant PG? or perhaps go the other way, starting Manu next to TP and have more playmaking?

I know it's early, but the starters have really struggled creating offense, and I thought this might be something worth discussing.

(and playerfan krews please keep this civil, thx)

[MultiTroll]

Long overdue.
Also, from a player / coaching perspective, Porker needs to know that ballhogging/failure to distribute will have consequences. As in being benched.

Popped got it in 2014. Seems to be the ONLY year he has.

All the moreso now that LMA/Kwa are the 1/2 options.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

NO. Our only two players that are good at dribble penetration are Tony and Manu. This threat forces the defense to contract. Without either one of the floor the defense could just sit on the perimeter.
This would be 2009 Spurs playoff team that lost to Suns because we had same issue.

[Canyonero]

I would like to see Patty start and get Parker with Manu and the 2nd unit. These are the ideal matches to test.

[apalisoc_9]

80% of the people here have been calling for patty to start. Makes sense in a kawhi and lma offense

[TheDoctor]

The problem with starting Manu instead of Danny will be the 2nd unit playmaking.

[rastaspur]

It should definitely be on the table for discussion by patfo. Patty can sufficiently run a basic picknroll with Aldridge. He's not that limited skillwise like some suggest.

The problem becomes Tony if he is removed from the starting unit. This could be a big problem from an ego perspective. Maybe he wouldn't sulk up like a bitch about it but I'm thinking he would. He already has delusions of grandeur in that he thinks he can play in the league for 20 years. Not at this rate, Frenchman.

[ElNono]

NO. Our only two players that are good at dribble penetration are Tony and Manu. This threat forces the defense to contract. Without either one of the floor the defense could just sit on the perimeter.
This would be 2009 Spurs playoff team that lost to Suns because we had same issue.

Perhaps we would be better served with a TP-Manu backcourt then? I think part of the problem is that Tony has a hard time these days getting inside the paint like he used to...

I mean, both Kawhi and LMA mostly operate from the post or curls anyways...

[ElNono]

The problem with starting Manu instead of Danny will be the 2nd unit playmaking.

Fair point, but I did notice that this season, Pop has delegated Patty with more of the ball handling in the 2nd unit. He's running point much more than Manu on a general basis. Plus the bench has another playmaker in Boris, and people have been saying Anderson might deserve to get a shot at that role.

[RD2191]

Thb I think both Parker and Mills are trash PGs. I'll leave it at that.

[Mikeanaro]

The problem with starting Manu instead of Danny will be the 2nd unit playmaking.
Agreed but who knows?

[spurs10]

This is interesting to me because if Patty starts he'll be playing with Danny and if Manu starts he'll be playing with TP. I somehow see the latter being Pop's first move and that would put Danny with Bobo and Patty in the second unit. Even with Manu currently shooting the 3 better than most, I'm thinking our starting unit would see their 3 pta's drop a bit. Now the second unit would have quite the 3 pt. lineup....on paper.

With LMA and Kawhi getting a lot more touches perhaps a playmaker like Manu is more proficient. Something is really pulling Danny out of rhythm. Perhaps being the 5th option is the culprit?

[Lostwingman]

Thb I think both Parker and Mills are trash PGs. I'll leave it at that.

Not exactly wrong when you look around the league.

I'm just hesitant to break up wingstop.

[MultiTroll]

NO. Our only two players that are good at dribble penetration are Tony and Manu. This threat forces the defense to contract. Without either one of the floor the defense could just sit on the perimeter.
This would be 2009 Spurs playoff team that lost to Suns because we had same issue.
Matty BonBon starting all 5 games might have had something to do with it. :pop: :rolleyes

[RD2191]

Not exactly wrong when you look around the league.

I'm just hesitant to break up wingstop.

Same here. Our D would take a hit with DG to the bench.

[apalisoc_9]

The closing unit is a more important question though since tony can start and still play with the bench for the most part

[Dre_7]

I wonder how Parker would fare coming off the bench? I know he would dominate other team's 2nd unit, but I wonder if he or Pop would be willing to do that? At least to see if it would work.

[MultiTroll]

Here is Patty Mills as a starter:
34 points
12 assists
5 rebounds
Spurs win 107 - 101 over Golden State.

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=320426009

If one of you computer guys can make all his started game stats come up at once, go for it.

[Chinook]

And this is what I said in that other thread:

Honestly, I feel that Green is slumping a bit defensively, even though he was fine enough on Wall last night. Green not playing elite defense and Parker not playing elite offense is a really bad combination. Green can (and definitely should) commit himself almost completely to D, which should improve his prospects. Parker probably won't be anything above a third option from now on, and he can't get into the paint well enough to give Green open looks.

I don't think role-players really work with this new mid-range offense. Green's threes aren't really coming within the flow of the offense right now. And Parker needs time to adjust to only attacking when he has mismatches. This change is clunky, and honestly, it might be untenable.

It might make sense to bench one of the two of them. Green's the most likely one for several reasons. He and Ginobili should form a good second unit, as Manu still plays a more open style, and the bench needs defense. The problem would be the other starting wing. Could see Anderson starting, as his game actually fits well with Leonard and Aldridge. But that puts more defensive pressure on Kawhi. That's probably the only option that would even have a chance or working, as Butler would just be a homeless man's Green, and Simmons isn't even ready for garbage time.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Patty is not a starter. He is a relief pitcher. He's only good for spot minutes.

[Chinook]

I do think Parker/Leonard/Anderson/Aldridge/Duncan makes some sense. Just mid-range shots all day. But then Anderson is guarding starting wings, and that seems like an awful prospect.

[Lostwingman]

I don't see Anderson defending starting wings well even if I think he's a better defender than people give him credit for.

[apalisoc_9]

Anderson starting is awful for leonard and aldridge. Imagine him making the past to Kawhi and LMA. So easy to help on kawhi and LMA.

[Mikeanaro]

What happened to our 3 pointers? you need 3s in this day and age in the NBA.

[MultiTroll]

Patty is not a starter. He is a relief pitcher. He's only good for spot minutes.
In addition to #1 game listed above:

Patty starter Game 2 research
34 minutes
27 points
5 assists
Spurs win 110 -106 over Phx.
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=320425021

[LittleCriminal]

I do think Parker/Leonard/Anderson/Aldridge/Duncan makes some sense. Just mid-range shots all day. But then Anderson is guarding starting wings, and that seems like an awful prospect.

I would love to see Manu, kahwi, Diaw, Aldridge and Boban.. Any thoughts?

[RD2191]

What happened to our 3 pointers? you need 3s in this day and age in the NBA.

Tbh. We tried benching Green before and it was a real shitfest.

[szkorhetz]

For me in the Playoffs, when we need some offense and teams will focus on LMA and Leonard I truly believe that a Mills-Green-Leonard-Diaw-LMA group would serve the best needs. We had a conversation about this in a hungarian Spurs forum, and we certainly think that this group would make some serious damage. Defense would not be that bad, since LMA is much better than expected, and rebounding should still be fine. Once playoffs time and team going small it will be hard to keep Timmy in the game together with LMA.

My main problem is, I hate this offense. Even LMA seems to much more of a distributor than KL, that really hurts our offense. It has no flow, no passing to the open man. LMA and mainly Kawhi wants to make it alone and I just can't tell you how sad I am because of this. Really it's the Mike Brown Lakers offense. 3 postups for Kawhi (Kobe), 1 postup for Lamarcus (Gasol), while everyone else is standing. This is not the basketball I can live with.

I know it's early, but the way we try to utilize Kawhi's offense, would benefit much more from a jump shooting big man (Ilyasova comes to my mind) and a PG who can really knock down the open shot. Mills, Neal, Lin or even Mo Williams would fill that role. The KL-LMA tandem is just killing each other. We should try to sub one of them early and let him play with the second unit.

[Spurtacular]

Pop and Parker have a devil's pact. It's gonna take more than a marginal strategy improvement to cut Parker from the starting line-up.

[SpursforSix]

For me in the Playoffs, when we need some offense and teams will focus on LMA and Leonard I truly believe that a Mills-Green-Leonard-Diaw-LMA group would serve the best needs. We had a conversation about this in a hungarian Spurs forum, and we certainly think that this group would make some serious damage. Defense would not be that bad, since LMA is much better than expected, and rebounding should still be fine. Once playoffs time and team going small it will be hard to keep Timmy in the game together with LMA.

My main problem is, I hate this offense. Even LMA seems to much more of a distributor than KL, that really hurts our offense. It has no flow, no passing to the open man. LMA and mainly Kawhi wants to make it alone and I just can't tell you how sad I am because of this. Really it's the Mike Brown Lakers offense. 3 postups for Kawhi (Kobe), 1 postup for Lamarcus (Gasol), while everyone else is standing. This is not the basketball I can live with.

It's still early. Hopefully as time goes by, the offense will evolve into something more of a Spurs style offense. But with the emergence of KL, I don't expect it to be exactly what it was. Just closer than it is now.

[MultiTroll]

Patty Starter Game 3 research
Spurs lost*
24 min
9 pts
4 assists
Spurs lead after 3 quarters.

*Duncan
*GNob
*Porker
all rested this entire game.

Game played in Mormonville.
Utah 33 FTAs
Spurs 10

http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?id=320409026

[Mikeanaro]

Tbh. We tried benching Green before and it was a real shitfest.
Lol Our problems always leak in different forms, I remember when Spurs were short having only Duncan and Bonner as their bigs, then it came size and a 3 pointers festival, now our 3´s smell like ass and the midrange is always knocking the back rim :p:

[DrSteffo]

No. They really need a C and backup SF and their starting PG is not elite anymore.

[MultiTroll]

But now that the offense will be largely focused on LMA and Kawhi, would the Spurs be better served starting somebody like Patty to space the floor instead of a ball dominant PG? or perhaps go the other way, starting Manu next to TP and have more playmaking?
If the Spurs make this adjustment and start rocking the league, can we still have PollyAnna Popper parties?

[RD2191]

Lol Our problems always leak in different forms, I remember when Spurs were short having only Duncan and Bonner as their bigs, then it came size and a 3 pointers festival, now our 3´s smell like ass and the midrange is always knocking the back rim :p:

Lol. The Duncan/Bonner era was by far the worst.

[kobyz]

We just need a trade, both Tony and Manu most have a reduce role..,

[Chinook]

I don't see Anderson defending starting wings well even if I think he's a better defender than people give him credit for.

It's dicey, mainly because Kawhi would be the only even average perimeter defender. Anderson I think would be okay playing with Green, Leonard and Duncan. But he'd struggle having to take the second-best perimeter player on the other team.


Anderson starting is awful for leonard and aldridge. Imagine him making the past to Kawhi and LMA. So easy to help on kawhi and LMA.

Not really. Anderson can shoot from midrange, and he seems to be great at making post-entry passes. And he can actually drive to the basket. You're right that spacing would suffer, but the idea of someone passing the ball to the post then just standing there is antiquated anyhow. Anderson can cut or even use some misdirection to gain post position himself.


I would love to see Manu, kahwi, Diaw, Aldridge and Boban.. Any thoughts?

That sounds awful, no offense. Horrible spacing and defense.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

start Butler at SG, trade Green for a cheaper wing who can shoot and defend + a 7 footer who can defend better than West.


Might have to pay off Green a few extra million (not part of the salary cap, but still an expense for Holt) for him to waive his bird trade exemption.

[Chinook]

start Butler at SG, trade Green for a cheaper wing who can shoot and defend + a 7 footer who can defend better than West.


Might have to pay off Green a few extra million (not part of the salary cap, but still an expense for Holt) for him to waive his bird trade exemption.

This is like Bads City, USA.

Butler is like Green by worse in every way.

Who's going to trade for Green using essentially a cheaper Green and a rotation big?

I assume you were joking about the under the table money. But Green doesn't have any trade exemption. In fact, he's never had one his whole career.

[ElNono]

Anderson just lacks the experience to start right now, IMO. That's a non-option at this stage.

I think the workable options would be: Patty-Green, Tony-Manu, Manu-Green and not much else, taking also into account the defensive side.

[ElNono]

Danny isn't going anywhere.

[spurraider21]

Just need manu to be 10 years younger

[apalisoc_9]

It's dicey, mainly because Kawhi would be the only even average perimeter defender. Anderson I think would be okay playing with Green, Leonard and Duncan. But he'd struggle having to take the second-best perimeter player on the other team.



Not really. Anderson can shoot from midrange, and he seems to be great at making post-entry passes. And he can actually drive to the basket. You're right that spacing would suffer, but the idea of someone passing the ball to the post then just standing there is antiquated anyhow. Anderson can cut or even use some misdirection to gain post position himself.



That sounds awful, no offense. Horrible spacing and defense.

You need to understand the personel better. Anderson cutting with TD on the court with LMA or Kawhi posting up is going to be rare to nonexistant. Id imagine it would be very ineffective. The reality is that both LMA and Kawhi are scores, not playmakers.

Im not even going to argue on how terrible the transition D would be with on him starting. Kawhi cant shoulder the whole perimeter D now that he is the focal point of the offense( something you disagree for some reason but pop and Inare fully convinced). Kawhi needs Green on D...someone gotta help that cone PG

[bic50]

Still too early.

[kobyz]

How you want to change without a trade? You don't have any possibility as of now!

[Chinook]

Anderson just lacks the experience to start right now, IMO. That's a non-option at this stage.

I think the workable options would be: Patty-Green, Tony-Manu, Manu-Green and not much else, taking also into account the defensive side.

I'd say the starting two is the spot the Spurs feel most comfortable starting an inexperienced player. Before Danny locked it down five years ago, it was like public bathroom in Tokyo with how much traffic (and how much crap) came through. The reason why that position was so dynamic is because it was just a place-holder for Ginobili. Even though the player was a starter, they weren't a closer, and they usually trailed far behind the second unit in terms of MPG. The same thing would be true in this case, except Anderson would be losing minutes to Green in addition to Manu. In fact, the Spurs could probably better regulate Manu's minutes by letting Green be the sixth man and having Ginobili come in when Leonard sits.

[Chinook]

You need to understand the personel better. Anderson cutting with TD on the court with LMA or Kawhi posting up is going to be rare to nonexistant. Id imagine it would be very ineffective. The reality is that both LMA and Kawhi are scores, not playmakers.

Anderson not cutting with the starting unit on the court seems like random speculation. Remember that Kyle is likely going to draw the worst perimeter defender if he starts. So he's going to be open. I agree that letting Anderson iso on his man may lead to bad offense, but that's not going to be much different from LMA and Kawhi doing the same thing. Right now, Danny is drowning on the floor due to not getting looks in rhythm. I don't think surrounding Kawhi and LMA with shooters is going to generate a ton of good looks, because as you said, they aren't play-makers.

Obviously, I agree on the defensive issue. But Parker is going to keep starting, so if anything is going to change, it's Green.

[MaNu4Tres]

Or Pop needs to stagger lineups more and take Parker out sooner and give him more minutes w/ 2nd unit and Patty more minutes w/ 1st unit. Don't necessarily have to start Patty to accommodate OP's notion.. tbh

[EVAY]

I can't see Manu starting because of the reasons people have indicated in the posts here: 1) the second unit needs his leadership (Diaw can create plays but lacks the leadership that Manu brings), and 2) Manu can't match Green's defensive abilities.

In terms of Mills starting, I think it would be worse. Presumably the point would be to use him to spread the floor. Problem with that is that, similar to Manu, Patty would be a defensive liability compared to Green, and his strength is in 'letting it fly", but the first string is a bit too orchestrated for that.

If there is to be a change in the starting backcourt (and I'm not in favor of it at this point), I would think you would have to replace Parker with Manu. Then put Parker in with the second unit along with Green and Diaw. Problem then is that you use too many Manu minutes, and we all know what happens when Manu gets used more minutes than his aging body accommodates.

The only real problems I see with the starting unit is that the team is not accustomed to Kawhi and LA being the first and second scoring options. They are all trying very hard to make that happen, but it takes Green out of his rhythm (as someone else pointed out), and we very often end up with crowded spacing when Duncan and Aldridge are near the paint and Kawhi is trying to iso with his back to the paint. It is just too crowded. As Kawhi improves at passing out of double teams to the right shooter (he is learning this skill but it is taking a bit), and as Aldridge gets more comfortable with where he needs to be in general, and as Kawhi and Aldridge become more comfortable in an offensive set that involves either or both of them going one-on-one, I think things will improve.

Remember last year when the beginning of the season was a mess of watching four of our starters watch Kawhi try to iso while standing and waiting to see if it would work? It was not pretty.

This year is not pretty.

I think the call for a line-up change in the backcourt is premature, but I don't expect it to get very pretty any time soon.

The bajillion turnovers last night was a combined function of Washington turning up the speed and us being too dumb not to fall for it, and the (too) frequent unforced errors by not being sufficiently focused.

We'll get there I think...

give 'em time.

[apalisoc_9]

Or Pop needs to stagger lineups more and take Parker out sooner and give him more minutes w/ 2nd unit and Patty more minutes w/ 1st unit. Don't necessarily have to start Patty to accommodate OP's notion.. tbh

Yeah..

[Obstructed_View]

Anderson should be the starting point guard, and everyone knows it.

[ElNono]

I'd say the starting two is the spot the Spurs feel most comfortable starting an inexperienced player. Before Danny locked it down five years ago, it was like public bathroom in Tokyo with how much traffic (and how much crap) came through. The reason why that position was so dynamic is because it was just a place-holder for Ginobili. Even though the player was a starter, they weren't a closer, and they usually trailed far behind the second unit in terms of MPG. The same thing would be true in this case, except Anderson would be losing minutes to Green in addition to Manu. In fact, the Spurs could probably better regulate Manu's minutes by letting Green be the sixth man and having Ginobili come in when Leonard sits.

That's because back in the day, both Tony and Tim, the focal point of the offense and the guys that brought all the attention, were guys that generally make good decisions with the ball (passing, etc).

But that's an old story now. Our focal point guys now are either too new (LMA) or have not developed that yet (Kawhi) and so the surrounding cast needs to be quicker and smarter, especially offensively.

I would've agreed with your assessment up until last season. This thread actually investigates the notion that such assumptions might not be the same due to the change of offensive focus.

[ElNono]

Or Pop needs to stagger lineups more and take Parker out sooner and give him more minutes w/ 2nd unit and Patty more minutes w/ 1st unit. Don't necessarily have to start Patty to accommodate OP's notion.. tbh

That would work too. The point isn't really about starters vs bench, but how we make the starting unit work better offensively.

[Chinook]

If there is to be a change in the starting backcourt (and I'm not in favor of it at this point), I would think you would have to replace Parker with Manu. Then put Parker in with the second unit along with Green and Diaw. Problem then is that you use too many Manu minutes, and we all know what happens when Manu gets used more minutes than his aging body accommodates.

There's a lot of good ideas in your post. I'll just focus on this part, as I really agree with most of the rest. I think the issue is that Green and Parker really don't fit as well together as they used to. I don't see that pairs as Parker/Green and Mills/Ginobili anymore. Parker is kinda on an island, and Green really is a better fit without Kawhi and Aldridge trying to score.

[ElNono]

Yeah, I've noticed the Parker-Green pairing this season leaves a lot to be desired. Partly what got me thinking into this whole thing.

[Brazil]

I don't think Spurs should change anything right now... I'm maybe a half full glass dude but Spurs debut are fine considering the context.

We lost against Wizards because of a TOV feast, this was due to happen at one point. Kawhi is carrying the load, defensively he did not lose anything, offensively he has to adapt a bit to his usage rate increase, clean turnovers, improve 3 pts shooting... but nothing you can complain about tbh... Green is struggling a bit but no way he lost his bb during the offseason, he will catch up. LMA is getting more comfortable but it takes a bit of time and Parker is playing his new role, he also needs a bit of time. When those obvious adjustments are made, Pop will have the elements he needs to evaluate a change of the starting 5 imo.

[Brazil]

Yeah, I've noticed the Parker-Green pairing this season leaves a lot to be desired. Partly what got me thinking into this whole thing.

there is no reason the fit between those 2 be worst now than last year tbh... Green is having a rough start, Parker is trying to play a new role... Green will catch up and Parker will improve in that regard... once we are there let's review the fit issue

[RD2191]

Brazil just had to fag this thread up.

[Brazil]

I can't see Manu starting because of the reasons people have indicated in the posts here: 1) the second unit needs his leadership (Diaw can create plays but lacks the leadership that Manu brings), and 2) Manu can't match Green's defensive abilities.

In terms of Mills starting, I think it would be worse. Presumably the point would be to use him to spread the floor. Problem with that is that, similar to Manu, Patty would be a defensive liability compared to Green, and his strength is in 'letting it fly", but the first string is a bit too orchestrated for that.

If there is to be a change in the starting backcourt (and I'm not in favor of it at this point), I would think you would have to replace Parker with Manu. Then put Parker in with the second unit along with Green and Diaw. Problem then is that you use too many Manu minutes, and we all know what happens when Manu gets used more minutes than his aging body accommodates.

The only real problems I see with the starting unit is that the team is not accustomed to Kawhi and LA being the first and second scoring options. They are all trying very hard to make that happen, but it takes Green out of his rhythm (as someone else pointed out), and we very often end up with crowded spacing when Duncan and Aldridge are near the paint and Kawhi is trying to iso with his back to the paint. It is just too crowded. As Kawhi improves at passing out of double teams to the right shooter (he is learning this skill but it is taking a bit), and as Aldridge gets more comfortable with where he needs to be in general, and as Kawhi and Aldridge become more comfortable in an offensive set that involves either or both of them going one-on-one, I think things will improve.

Remember last year when the beginning of the season was a mess of watching four of our starters watch Kawhi try to iso while standing and waiting to see if it would work? It was not pretty.

This year is not pretty.

I think the call for a line-up change in the backcourt is premature, but I don't expect it to get very pretty any time soon.

The bajillion turnovers last night was a combined function of Washington turning up the speed and us being too dumb not to fall for it, and the (too) frequent unforced errors by not being sufficiently focused.

We'll get there I think...

give 'em time.

I share your analysis, it is a bit premature...

[GreggPopAsnitch]

If Lma's trash ass doesn't get his fat ass rolling , nothing is going to work.

[elbamba]

Neither move addresses my biggest concern which is true three point shooting. Spurs have Danny, who can't throw a stone in the ocean right now, and Patty. KL has not shot well and will never be a legitimate three point threat. Manu's numbers show that he is more of a streak three point shooter than a true one. I think the Spurs are going to need to address this if they want to beat teams like Golden State. Spurs won't be able to score enough points to win.

[RD2191]

If Lma's trash ass doesn't get his fat ass rolling , nothing is going to work.

I agree with this statement.

[HarlemHeat37]

It's alarming that none of the players in the 1st unit have been drawing double-teams or getting penetration to force the opposing defense to rotate, tbh..

Kawhi has fully taken advantage of the 1 on 1 coverage, but the team isn't going to win by having a single player shoot 20+ per game without any offensive structure..

Aldridge post-ups have been relatively poor, and it appears that every opponent is content with allowing him to play his matchup without sending help, nor should they..

Parker has played his role well, but it's very evident that he's slow and doesn't have a first step vs. his opponent anymore, which kills any chance of penetration..his role is mostly running the offense and scoring vs. mismatches now, which is fine, but it's a tough fit in a unit that doesn't have playmaking..

Green suffers most from these circumstances, as he obviously relies on others to create shots for him in rhythm..he has missed some of his open 3s, but just from the eye test(I'm going to make a thread that examines the numbers soon to verify), he's getting far fewer quality looks than he has in previous seasons..

If we're being honest, only Parker-Duncan and Duncan-Aldridge in the high-low have any chemistry in the starting unit, right now..Parker-Aldridge has looked bad, Kawhi-Aldridge are naturally a weird fit, and Green has fit poorly because none of the other starters are natural playmakers(other than Parker, who no longer has the speed, and Duncan from the key)..

[apalisoc_9]

Anderson not cutting with the starting unit on the court seems like random speculation. Remember that Kyle is likely going to draw the worst perimeter defender if he starts. So he's going to be open. I agree that letting Anderson iso on his man may lead to bad offense, but that's not going to be much different from LMA and Kawhi doing the same thing. Right now, Danny is drowning on the floor due to not getting looks in rhythm. I don't think surrounding Kawhi and LMA with shooters is going to generate a ton of good looks, because as you said, they aren't play-makers.

Obviously, I agree on the defensive issue. But Parker is going to keep starting, so if anything is going to change, it's Green.

You act like misdirections isnt dependent on offensive gravity. Im just going to ignore that you said LMA and Kawhi posts ups are the same as kyle.

One play that i havent seen pop do at all this year is the hammer with kawhi passing to danny. Seen it once. ..I dont understand why they hatdly run plays for danny...

[Kawhitstorm]

Porker's game isn't conducive to being an effective bench player & Danny has to play w/ the big boys to get open looks when the defense cheats. The solution is to bench Porker in the 4th quarter. Heeeeeroooooooo Ball (c) Enirique:bang

[Kawhitstorm]

It's alarming that none of the players in the 1st unit have been drawing double-teams or getting penetration to force the opposing defense to rotate, tbh..


The solution is to run a Kawhi/LMA high PnR, if the defense switches & the mismatch on LMA will force a double team. Kawhi playing ISO ball like Melo or calling 4-down plays for LMA isn't going to force the defense to send double teams. The Mavs basically run a high PnR set w/ Dirk/Terry when the Mavs were contenders b/c both players were deadly mid-range shooters ala Kawhi/LMA.

[apalisoc_9]

Porker's game isn't conducive to being an effective bench player & Danny has to play w/ the big boys to get open looks when the defense cheats. The solution is to bench Porker in the 4th quarter. Heeeeeroooooooo Ball (c) Enirique:bang
I said this at the first page. Who starts isnt that big of an issue. Who ends is..

Manu-Green-Leonard-LMA-TD is perfect..pop is just concerned with tony ego..

Hes basically dragging us down from a perfect closing unit.

[ElNono]

I don't think Spurs should change anything right now... I'm maybe a half full glass dude but Spurs debut are fine considering the context.

We lost against Wizards because of a TOV feast, this was due to happen at one point. Kawhi is carrying the load, defensively he did not lose anything, offensively he has to adapt a bit to his usage rate increase, clean turnovers, improve 3 pts shooting... but nothing you can complain about tbh... Green is struggling a bit but no way he lost his bb during the offseason, he will catch up. LMA is getting more comfortable but it takes a bit of time and Parker is playing his new role, he also needs a bit of time. When those obvious adjustments are made, Pop will have the elements he needs to evaluate a change of the starting 5 imo.

I respect the opinion that nothing should change and we just might need to wait it out, but this thread isn't a reaction to the last game. Even in the games we won, it's been clear that the starter's offense has been extremely reliant on jumpers and the lack of ball movement and playmaking has been pretty glaring, tbh...

I don't know if changes in the backcourt will fix anything or not, just an idea to discuss...

[MaNu4Tres]

One thing I'd like to see is LMA lose about 10-15 pounds tbh..

Right now he has heavy legs. Those heavy legs will prevent him from reaching his optimal effectiveness.

Reasons why:

A) If he's going to shoot a lot of jumpers, he needs his legs and weight to be right to reach optimal efficiency. Even if he's more a set shooter it's still a relevant issue -- his legs need to carry less weight and at the same time be in better shape. If not, the inconsistent jumper will remain a problem for the overall offense. (those who have actually played basketball can understand this)
B) At same time, he needs to be lighter on his feet to be able to beat his man off the dribble from pump fakes when his defender over commits w their contests. Would help his effectiveness/efficiency when attacking the basket from 10-15 feet out.
C) Lastly, he needs to lose some weight in order to be able to defend PnR's more effectively since most points are being scored off perimeter play now days. Lighter legs will help his hedges, and the team's overall defense.

Losing the extra weight will help him become a much better player on both ends of the floor imo...

By the way, it's okay for Spurs fans to point out sensitive issues like weight gain. Last year many posters pointed out Parkers weight gain and they were right to a degree. They may have went a little overboard w/ funny photoshops ect, but they weren't wrong in their opinion. Even Parker recently said he had to lose 8-10 pounds this offseason -- which he did and you can tell Parker is lighter on his feet and has his feet under him in his jumpers and floaters this year.

[milkyway21]

Something I just mentioned in another thread, but I think it's worth discussing on it's own.

When the focal point of the starters' offense was Tony and Tim, it made sense to have Danny and Kawhi spacing the floor and a relative non-factor offensively like Tiago doing blue collar work.

But now that the offense will be largely focused on LMA and Kawhi, would the Spurs be better served starting somebody like Patty to space the floor instead of a ball dominant PG? or perhaps go the other way, starting Manu next to TP and have more playmaking?

I know it's early, but the starters have really struggled creating offense, and I thought this might be something worth discussing.

(and playerfan krews please keep this civil, thx)


Might be a good idea.

How about more Mills minutes. Not actually starting but give him more minutes for a change edp when LMA is on the floor.

[Brazil]

I respect the opinion that nothing should change and we just might need to wait it out, but this thread isn't a reaction to the last game. Even in the games we won, it's been clear that the starter's offense has been extremely reliant on jumpers and the lack of ball movement and playmaking has been pretty glaring, tbh...

I don't know if changes in the backcourt will fix anything or not, just an idea to discuss...

Don't get me wrong it's a good discussion... Last game starting 5 has been quite awful tbh, it is clearly a work in progress... all the points you made are valid, just saying a bit premature at this stage, still something to look at for sure.

Question is to know if one can fix the lack of spacing that mostly is the cause of lack of ball movement and a lot of isos / jumpers or not.

Arguments in favor should be:

- The famous 3 pts shoot LMA is supposed to use more,
- Kawhi/Green shooting again at a decent clip from 3s,
- LMA and Tim getting used to play together thus better position off the ball,
- Kawhi improving his playmaking and using more penetration and dish out so that the team relies less on Parker to create open looks to shoot the 3s,
- Parker shooting a bit more of 3s too if he has the legs and getting better at finding his team mates

all those "conditions" are not unreachable tbh... that's why I'm on the wait and see camp

[Brazil]

One thing I'd like to see is LMA lose about 10-15 pounds tbh..

Right now he has heavy legs. Those heavy legs will prevent him from reaching his optimal effectiveness.

Reasons why:

A) If he's going to shoot a lot of jumpers, he needs his legs and weight to be right to reach optimal efficiency. Even if he's more a set shooter it's still a relevant issue -- his legs need to carry less weight and at the same time be in better shape. If not, the inconsistent jumper will remain a problem for the overall offense. (those who have actually played basketball can understand this)
B) At same time, he needs to be lighter on his feet to be able to beat his man off the dribble from pump fakes when his defender over commits w their contests. Would help his effectiveness/efficiency when attacking the basket from 10-15 feet out.
C) Lastly, he needs to lose some weight in order to be able to defend PnR's more effectively since most points are being scored off perimeter play now days. Lighter legs will help his hedges, and the team's overall defense.

Losing the extra weight will help him become a much better player on both ends of the floor imo...

By the way, it's okay for Spurs fans to point out sensitive issues like weight gain. Last year many posters pointed out Parkers weight gain and they were right to a degree. They may have went a little overboard w/ funny photoshops ect, but they weren't wrong in their opinion. Even Parker recently said he had to lose 8-10 pounds this offseason -- which he did and you can tell Parker is lighter on his feet and has his feet under him in his jumpers and floaters this year.

that's a very valid point tbh

[UNT Eagles 2016]

This is like Bads City, USA.

Butler is like Green by worse in every way.

Who's going to trade for Green using essentially a cheaper Green and a rotation big?

I assume you were joking about the under the table money. But Green doesn't have any trade exemption. In fact, he's never had one his whole career.
Anyone in the first-year of a contract has a player-option trade exemption via bird rights.

[coachmac87]

The problem is Tony Parker. He's holding or dribbling waaaay too much and doesn't play with the right pace or tempo. It's like sometimes he penetrate to score waaaaay too much compared to driving and kicking or passing to start the ball movement. I feel like Parker is the one struggling most to the adjustment needed to be made. He must become a playmaker and he needs to average career high in assist. He needs to get LMA and Green easy looks...

[SAGirl]

Anderson just lacks the experience to start right now, IMO. That's a non-option at this stage.

I think the workable options would be: Patty-Green, Tony-Manu, Manu-Green and not much else, taking also into account the defensive side.
I would completely discount Manu starting. Pop is going to limit him more than he ever has. He is scheduled to not play many B2B and he should be around 20 minutes ideally. Patty has an increased role, at which he has struggled. Him and Tony have had ballhandling issues. His court vision is not better than Tony's, he's just more unlikely to dribble/dribble and would rather pass to cut for a shot and a better 3 pt shooter, but in terms of setting others up, and court vision you have a tough case in favor of Patty. Danny can run the simplest side PnR and has improved in passing, but I feel that as it concerns to Danny, he's prone to klutzy plays, that means that he really needs chemistry and familiarity more so than others to know what he needs to do and who he can set up for shots how. Otherwise, he will be prone to wild chaotic play.

Slowly but surely, Pop has to give a chance to Kyle. He was subbed as SG for a few minutes I believe. As much as everyone says he's redundant, our PG/SG combos lack in playmaking except for Ginobili, the one man you don't want to run to the ground this early.

I saw some PnR between Kyle and LMA in preseason that I have not seen anyone else run except Ginobili. Flame me, but we need some Anderson here or there. We are not getting enough playmaking in the starting unit. I know Pop wants Kawhi to be this point forward type, but honestly, he's not. Pop has said himself that elite passing can't really be coached. Do you notice how Manu just makes everyone play better??? Diaw??? No one else in our starting unit has that except TD, and him and Lamarcus are getting in each others' ways a whole lot. Tony and Danny are not these elite passers. Tony has been good bc of his uncanny chemistry with TD, and finding Danny for 3s, but what they are doing right now is something else.

You have to let Kawhi do his thing, because he is awesome, but he can't do it alone, and how do you fit everyone else? I don't know.

Not sure how this is going to turn out. I believe Kyle can help, just because he is an unselfish player in the Diaw mold. He will be fine finishing with 5/6 assist and 2 shots quite honestly. I believe he is the kind of guy who improves ball movement. He's also able to finish a possession if they get stuck and nothing comes out of what they were doing, we have seen him take shots at the end of the shot clock or draw fouls. The Spurs have been developing his decision making, but also his ability to get his own shot under duress if the ball ends up in his hands and he has to create. At this point, its up to Pop. He's being the tough coach that is making him earn it. That SAC game in preseason, Kyle was the best player in that game. He had some high assist games in low minutes with the bench in preseason and was a positive in several games. He was awesome next to Boban in the Rockets game. I mean, the guy is a terrific passer and we are stuck. If someone can run PnR with Boban, I wouldn't say that is easy!!! I mean we have talent but he's in the tough love/doghouse.

[HarlemHeat37]

Or Pop needs to stagger lineups more and take Parker out sooner and give him more minutes w/ 2nd unit and Patty more minutes w/ 1st unit. Don't necessarily have to start Patty to accommodate OP's notion.. tbh

I pretty much agree with this, regarding not changing the starting lineups, but rather altering the subsequent units..

The worst thing he can do is to stubbornly force a unit to fit together..

[Dex]

The problem with starting Manu instead of Danny will be the 2nd unit playmaking.

Not to mention Manu will be dead by January.

[TD 21]

No, it's the best possible starting lineup on this roster and has the potential to be as good as any in the league, in time.

But the rotation needs to be altered . . .

The way I see it, this is the best possible realistic (I can't see Pop going with Marjanovic over West or going strictly down to three, in perpetuity, this early) big rotation: Sit Duncan from roughly the 5 minute mark, in the 1st and 3rd, until the 9 minute mark, in the 2nd and 4th and Aldridge for the first six of the 2nd and 4th. This leaves only a 3 minute stretch where West and Diaw play together and maximizes the time Duncan and Aldridge play together.

I'd also go with Butler ahead of Anderson. If he can shoot threes around 40%, he stays; if not, scour the trade/buyout market and hopefully find someone who can, at some point.

[TrainOfThought5]

Hmmmm.... Kyle would trade off matchups with Green the same way Parker would. It would give us an insanely long starting backcourt. Id still rather see patty get the first crack at it.

[ElNono]

I would completely discount Manu starting. Pop is going to limit him more than he ever has. He is scheduled to not play many B2B and he should be around 20 minutes ideally. Patty has an increased role, at which he has struggled. Him and Tony have had ballhandling issues. His court vision is not better than Tony's, he's just more unlikely to dribble/dribble and would rather pass to cut for a shot and a better 3 pt shooter, but in terms of setting others up, and court vision you have a tough case in favor of Patty. Danny can run the simplest side PnR and has improved in passing, but I feel that as it concerns to Danny, he's prone to klutzy plays, that means that he really needs chemistry and familiarity more so than others to know what he needs to do and who he can set up for shots how. Otherwise, he will be prone to wild chaotic play.

Slowly but surely, Pop has to give a chance to Kyle. He was subbed as SG for a few minutes I believe. As much as everyone says he's redundant, our PG/SG combos lack in playmaking except for Ginobili, the one man you don't want to run to the ground this early.

I saw some PnR between Kyle and LMA in preseason that I have not seen anyone else run except Ginobili. Flame me, but we need some Anderson here or there. We are not getting enough playmaking in the starting unit. I know Pop wants Kawhi to be this point forward type, but honestly, he's not. Pop has said himself that elite passing can't really be coached. Do you notice how Manu just makes everyone play better??? Diaw??? No one else in our starting unit has that except TD, and him and Lamarcus are getting in each others' ways a whole lot. Tony and Danny are not these elite passers. Tony has been good bc of his uncanny chemistry with TD, and finding Danny for 3s, but what they are doing right now is something else.

You have to let Kawhi do his thing, because he is awesome, but he can't do it alone, and how do you fit everyone else? I don't know.

Not sure how this is going to turn out. I believe Kyle can help, just because he is an unselfish player in the Diaw mold. He will be fine finishing with 5/6 assist and 2 shots quite honestly. I believe he is the kind of guy who improves ball movement. He's also able to finish a possession if they get stuck and nothing comes out of what they were doing, we have seen him take shots at the end of the shot clock or draw fouls. The Spurs have been developing his decision making, but also his ability to get his own shot under duress if the ball ends up in his hands and he has to create. At this point, its up to Pop. He's being the tough coach that is making him earn it. That SAC game in preseason, Kyle was the best player in that game. He had some high assist games in low minutes with the bench in preseason and was a positive in several games. He was awesome next to Boban in the Rockets game. I mean, the guy is a terrific passer and we are stuck. If someone can run PnR with Boban, I wouldn't say that is easy!!! I mean we have talent but he's in the tough love/doghouse.

I'm not worried about Manu's minutes, because I know they'll be in the 20-25 range, and I know he'll sit back to backs... the question really is should he play the first 10 mins of the 1st and 3rd quarter with the starting unit and the last 4-5 mins of the game... see if the starting unit can get in some sort of rhythm offensively... he doesn't have to score, just distribute the ball so guys like Kawhi and LMA get comfortable and confident... the biggest problem right now is that LMA is too tentative, the offense is too bogged down, and with no penetration, Kawhi is just a jumpshooter and Danny a spectator. It's about bringing some energy to that unit, make the other team panic and start doubling our best guys, and going from there...

Then again, that might just happen naturally once Tony adjusts to his role, but if he does not, some other options need to be considered.

[TrainOfThought5]

Is pattys defense >or< tonys. If patty is better there, i dont see why he cant start.

[objective]

I think the solution is to make Parker the 3rd string. Maybe fitted in with 3 guard lineups where manu is the SF.

Parker is finished. He lost weight, not enough as he can lose more, but he's still just 2002 Terry Porter out there. His nickname should change from Tony Porker to Tony Porter. All the falling down, losing the ball, bad defense, the sad feelings watching him, it's there. He couldn't get a step on. Jose Calderon without a pick. He can't penetrate, can't finish on a fast break, can't defend, can't shoot dependably, and can't even handle the ball anymore. Porter still probably played better defense and shot better though.

I say start McCollum. He's been bad all season true, but I have more faith in him making plays and being active than Parker.

[itzsoweezee]

Even if pop doesn't start Patty, he needs to give him a lot more playing time. SA doesn't need Parker's penetration. What it needs is outside shooting. The Kawhi/Lamarcus/Tim frontcourt will be unstoppable if opposing teams have to stay home on the guards. You can't have a frontcourt dominant offense if only one of your guards can shoot.

[HarlemHeat37]

The problem with Mills has been that he's not a playmaker and he's a questionable ball-handler for a PG..with the current starting lineup, it may not be as big of a deal as in previous years, though, since they don't have a penetrating playmaker, anyways..maybe having another shooting threat that can score off the dribble can elicit a different reaction from opposing defenses..

There's also a lot of redundancy in Parker/Leonard/Aldridge, too..

[dabom]

Patty needs to start. We win a 'ship if he does.

[ElNono]

The problem with Mills has been that he's not a playmaker and he's a questionable ball-handler for a PG..with the current starting lineup, it may not be as big of a deal as in previous years, though, since they don't have a penetrating playmaker, anyways..maybe having another shooting threat that can score off the dribble can elicit a different reaction from opposing defenses..

There's also a lot of redundancy in Parker/Leonard/Aldridge, too..

I just think he would provide better spacing if we're going repeatedly to Kawhi/LMA/Tim in the post... nobody is scared of Tony's shot, but Patty is a different story, IMO... defensively at this point is a wash, tbh, with Patty maybe having a slight advantage due to quicker feet....

[RD2191]

I think the solution is to make Parker the 3rd string. Maybe fitted in with 3 guard lineups where manu is the SF.

Parker is finished. He lost weight, not enough as he can lose more, but he's still just 2002 Terry Porter out there. His nickname should change from Tony Porker to Tony Porter. All the falling down, losing the ball, bad defense, the sad feelings watching him, it's there. He couldn't get a step on. Jose Calderon without a pick. He can't penetrate, can't finish on a fast break, can't defend, can't shoot dependably, and can't even handle the ball anymore. Porter still probably played better defense and shot better though.

I say start McCollum. He's been bad all season true, but I have more faith in him making plays and being active than Parker.

[HarlemHeat37]

This isn't anything new, too, although I can't remember the offense looking as bad as it does right now, stylistically..

I'm referring to struggles from the SL, though, which has been the case several times over the past few years..it was just 2 years ago that Green was benched for Belinelli due to his struggles and the poor chemistry in the SL IIRC..there was also long stretches where the Kawhi/Duncan/Splitter trio looked pretty shitty on offense(negated by the defense, fortunately) IIRC..

The current lineup is going to be more difficult to solve..

[TrainOfThought5]

The problem with Mills has been that he's not a playmaker and he's a questionable ball-handler for a PG..with the current starting lineup, it may not be as big of a deal as in previous years, though, since they don't have a penetrating playmaker, anyways..maybe having another shooting threat that can score off the dribble can elicit a different reaction from opposing defenses..

There's also a lot of redundancy in Parker/Leonard/Aldridge, too..

At this point in their careers, I feel that Tony has regressed to the point where he isnt the playmaker he used to be (Parker has never been a naturally elite playmaker). And with Leonard taking more Ballhandling and distribution duties I think its all overemphasized. Patty's elite 3 PT shooting and speed and pesky hustle defense will be a much needed boon for this offense providing incredible spacing and and a more effective offense for KL/LA/TD to operate. as well as decreasing the amount of dependence we'll have on DG's streaky 3 PT shooting.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Start Kyle. Let him guard whichever opposing 1/2/3 is the weakest offensive threat. Sub him early with Mills, if needed. Let Tony acclimate to the 2nd unit.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

I think the solution is to make Parker the 3rd string. Maybe fitted in with 3 guard lineups where manu is the SF.

Parker is finished. He lost weight, not enough as he can lose more, but he's still just 2002 Terry Porter out there. His nickname should change from Tony Porker to Tony Porter. All the falling down, losing the ball, bad defense, the sad feelings watching him, it's there. He couldn't get a step on. Jose Calderon without a pick. He can't penetrate, can't finish on a fast break, can't defend, can't shoot dependably, and can't even handle the ball anymore. Porter still probably played better defense and shot better though.

I say start McCollum. He's been bad all season true, but I have more faith in him making plays and being active than Parker.

Little early too be drunk already.

[TrainOfThought5]

Start Kyle. Let him guard whichever opposing 1/2/3 is the weakest offensive threat. Sub him early with Mills, if needed. Let Tony acclimate to the 2nd unit.

The Defensive possibilities here are intriguing. KA's long limbs and instincts have proven to be effective against NBA backup wings, and his offensive capabilities have solidified with that floater and midrange pullup. My issue is his slow release from 3, ability to handle pressure defense, and properly run the offense for the starters. if Danny was an even AVERAGE ball handler/playmaker I would be leading the charge for this to happen.

Still. I love KA and i'm positive that hes going to be a unique star in this league. just not this year.

[HarlemHeat37]

At least these problems are occurring now, fortunately..only 5 games into the season, a ton of time to figure shit out, hopefully..the high-end talent is already on the roster, which is the most difficult thing to acquire for an NBA roster..

[TrainOfThought5]

At least these problems are occurring now, fortunately..only 5 games into the season, a ton of time to figure shit out, hopefully..

I trust in Pop, I dont think he'll have the heart to bench Tony to start Patty, but I'm holding out hope he'll give Boban some burn.

[TD 21]

At least these problems are occurring now, fortunately..only 5 games into the season, a ton of time to figure shit out, hopefully..

Making the changes I suggested is the best possible rotation, but honestly, the pieces just don't fit together off the bench.

It's not as big of a deal in the playoffs, when they can essentially go down to an 8 man rotation, but this team needs a top 3 seed if they're going to have a realistic chance to win the championship. It's a catch 22, because it may require a virtual 8 man rotation to have a solid shot at a top 3 seed, but because of the age/mileage of 4 of the top 8, they can't go with that for 82 games.

It's difficult to fault the West signing, for obvious reasons, but his presence ruins the big rotation. It limits the time Duncan and Aldridge, the best big duo in the league, play together and forces Pop to, in close games (which is almost all games for this team in the past year plus), either run Duncan into the ground in the 2nd half or play a portion of crunch time with him out, to manage his minutes.

I'm not really concerned with the back court, though.

[TrainOfThought5]

Making the changes I suggested is the best possible rotation, but honestly, the pieces just don't fit together off the bench.

It's not as big of a deal in the playoffs, when they can essentially go down to an 8 man rotation, but this team needs a top 3 seed if they're going to have a realistic chance to win the championship. It's a catch 22, because it may require a virtual 8 man rotation to have a solid shot at a top 3 seed, but because of the age/mileage of 4 of the top 8, they can't go with that for 82 games.

It's difficult to fault the West signing, for obvious reasons, but his presence ruins the big rotation. It limits the time Duncan and Aldridge, the best big duo in the league, play together and forces Pop to, in close games (which is almost all games for this team in the past year plus), either run Duncan into the ground in the 2nd half or play a portion of crunch time with him out, to manage his minutes.

I'm not really concerned with the back court, though.

Would we be bad guys if we traded west/Mcallum and a pick?

[TD 21]

Would we be bad guys if we traded west/Mcallum and a pick?

Yeah. They'll only trade West if he requests it.

Here's what I think they should do if he does: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253864&page=2

[Robz4000]

I'm with the group for not changing the SL. We're 5 games into the season at this point, lets see where the team is in mid December. If a change does need to be made still I'd bench Parker for Mills, but if that happens it prolly means Pop is going to stick with the ISO-heavy mid-range offense, and if that's the case it won't matter because the team won't win anything anyway.

I'm much more concerned with the closing unit tbh. Pop needs to bench Parker when it's close and he's not giving the team anything on offense while getting torched on D or when they're playing the Westbrook's/Wall's/athletic PGs of the league because he simply can't be on the court against them in close situations. Manu/Green/Kawhi/LMA/Duncan can be a monster closing out games.

[Cry Havoc]

I can't believe people on Spurstalk are actually in favor of starting SloMo to HELP our defense.

Have you guys ever actually watched him play? smh

[Maj_G]

good points! I was thinking of Manu starting myself the other day. Danny Green will provide our second unit with much needed defense. Also how about Timmy coming off the bench? As others have mentioned we need Timmy or LMA on the court at all times. Boris + West are just a liability right now.

[SAGirl]

I'm not worried about Manu's minutes, because I know they'll be in the 20-25 range, and I know he'll sit back to backs... the question really is should he play the first 10 mins of the 1st and 3rd quarter with the starting unit and the last 4-5 mins of the game... see if the starting unit can get in some sort of rhythm offensively... he doesn't have to score, just distribute the ball so guys like Kawhi and LMA get comfortable and confident... the biggest problem right now is that LMA is too tentative, the offense is too bogged down, and with no penetration, Kawhi is just a jumpshooter and Danny a spectator. It's about bringing some energy to that unit, make the other team panic and start doubling our best guys, and going from there...

Then again, that might just happen naturally once Tony adjusts to his role, but if he does not, some other options need to be considered.
The problem with starting Manu is that you want to find a solution long term. Unless you are really starting Manu from now on, going most of the season with that and postseason, it doesn't solve anything. Spurs have been trending to having Manu play more off the ball, and off other people, than having him handle the ball so much and depending on him to make plays. Therefore, that together with what I pointed above, makes me believe starting Manu is not the solution. Maybe Pop gives a chance to Patty, but like I said he's not better than Tony in terms of court vision and passing.

I have a solution, but I am not being realistic. Maybe Kyle is a year away. Pop knows his team better. If he's not ready, Tony will have to step it up. I don't think anyone else of our PG/SG can provide passing like Manu can and at 38 you don't want to rely on him to make chemistry happen in the first unit. Kyle is the younger developing prospect.

[Cry Havoc]

good points! I was thinking of Manu starting myself the other day. Danny Green will provide our second unit with much needed defense. Also how about Timmy coming off the bench? As others have mentioned we need Timmy or LMA on the court at all times. Boris + West are just a liability right now.

Putting Manu on the starting 5 means you have a bench with no one who can create a shot or get penetration. The offense would really struggle when the 2nd unit takes the floor. Green certainly can't create his shot, and Patty isn't much better at this point.

[TrainOfThought5]

I can't believe people on Spurstalk are actually in favor of starting SloMo to HELP our defense.

Have you guys ever actually watched him play? smh

He would be getting the help of cross matchups with Green. guarding the weakest perimeter threat the same way Parker does. EXCEPT with length and timing to rely on he may be able to help against a lot of matchups in a way that Parker simply isnt.

[Kawhi 5-0]

I would have said yes last year, but Parker has started strong. Patty isn't exactly playing All-Star level point guard right now. He's playing well, but no need to change that. Main problem is Danny Green needs to hit shots. That will come. He's too good to continue with this slump.

[Cry Havoc]

He would be getting the help of cross matchups with Green. guarding the weakest perimeter threat the same way Parker does. EXCEPT with length and timing to rely on he may be able to help against a lot of matchups in a way that Parker simply isnt.

Can I ask what makes you think that Kyle Anderson can guard NBA starting SF/SG/PGs? Do you have any data or observations with which you're drawing this conclusion, or just stating that "since he has long arms he can play d"?

[TrainOfThought5]

Can I ask what makes you think that Kyle Anderson can guard NBA starting SF/SG/PGs? Do you have any data or observations with which you're drawing this conclusion, or just stating that "since he has long arms he can play d"?

This isnt a case I'm making in a vacuum. all alternate options to Parker are being compared in RELATION to Parker. and since KA hasnt started any games this year theres no data to prove or disprove the theory. its speculative.

[RD2191]

Tbh Pop doesn't have the balls to move TP to the bench.

[SAGirl]

Can I ask what makes you think that Kyle Anderson can guard NBA starting SF/SG/PGs? Do you have any data or observations with which you're drawing this conclusion, or just stating that "since he has long arms he can play d"?
There is no much data because he hasn't played much, and hasn't started. He started a few games last season, when he was an even less developed player, and was adequate in a few opportunities. Of what little we have seen from him this season, he's been adequate and able to hold his own against many quick and smaller guards than he is. He's also handled them in switches. Still, it's limited opportunities and he will always need a good big man to help, which the starting unit has.

I believe he will be adequate if given the opportunity, but the reason I am suggesting he get an opportunity for a few minutes has to do with our playmaking, and the lack of ball movement that the first unit is currently suffering.

[Cry Havoc]

This isnt a case I'm making in a vacuum. all alternate options to Parker are being compared in RELATION to Parker. and since KA hasnt started any games this year theres no data to prove or disprove the theory. its speculative.

Most teams in the NBA do not look to PG for a source of defense. In fact, there are only a handful of defenders at point that could be considered "good" defenders. Paul, Rondo, Wall, Westbrook, Conley, and maybe Curry (he's been playing well but is on a BEAST of a defensive team and hasn't been doing it for long enough to know for sure).

And keep in mind: We're in the golden age of PGs right now. The point is just historically not a point of strength for defenses, so there are a lot of teams that could theoretically improve their defenses without a point, but it would crush their offensive production AND generate a lot of easy bucket turnovers if they don't have anyone to handle the ball up the court.

Patty Mills is not a viable solution at this point. I can't believe anyone would think he's viable right now when he has been far and away worse when he's handling the ball than Parker. It's baffling. Then again, it's SpursTalk, we're 5 games into the season, so I suppose I should expect a meltdown even if we were 5-0.

[Cry Havoc]

There is no much data because he hasn't played much, and hasn't started. He started a few games last season, when he was an even less developed player, and was adequate in a few opportunities. Of what little we have seen from him this season, he's been adequate and able to hold his own against many quick and smaller guards than he is. He's also handled them in switches. Still, it's limited opportunities and he will always need a good big man to help, which the starting unit has.

I believe he will be adequate if given the opportunity, but the reason I am suggesting he get an opportunity for a few minutes has to do with our playmaking, and the lack of ball movement that the first unit is currently suffering.

Adequate? What leads you to say this? Patty has been an unmitigated disaster on the court for the most part when I've seen him this year.

[SAGirl]

Most teams in the NBA do not look to PG for a source of defense. In fact, there are only a handful of defenders at point that could be considered "good" defenders. Paul, Rondo, Wall, Westbrook, Conley, and maybe Curry (he's been playing well but is on a BEAST of a defensive team and hasn't been doing it for long enough to know for sure).

And keep in mind: We're in the golden age of PGs right now. The point is just historically not a point of strength for defenses, so there are a lot of teams that could theoretically improve their defenses without a point, but it would crush their offensive production AND generate a lot of easy bucket turnovers if they don't have anyone to handle the ball up the court.

Patty Mills is not a viable solution at this point. I can't believe anyone would think he's viable right now when he has been far and away worse when he's handling the ball than Parker. It's baffling. Then again, it's SpursTalk, we're 5 games into the season, so I suppose I should expect a meltdown even if we were 5-0.
I agree with you that Patty is not the best option. I mentioned above that his court vision is not above Tony's and that his play to close the 3Q and start the 4th along with Danny's klutzy play led to TO and lost us a lead.

[SAGirl]

Adequate? What leads you to say this? Patty has been an unmitigated disaster on the court for the most part when I've seen him this year.
I am not advocating Patty. I am advocating a Danny/Kyle switch for a few minutes to promote playmaking. ...

[Brian Windhorst]

Not really. The starters just need to drop the Hoosiers shit and feed the two actual scorers, LMA and Kawhi, early and often. That unit has the potential to be the best defensive starting 5 in the league, but the Parker-dribble and Duncan post ups are just a waste of time. The ball needs to be in Kawhi's or Lamarcus' hand every single possession, and everyone else can get theirs off of passes.

On a related note, Kawhi needs to get better at dumping the ball off to bigs when he gets to the paint and sucks their man over. He's leaving about 5 assists a night on the court right now.

[ElNono]

The problem with starting Manu is that you want to find a solution long term. Unless you are really starting Manu from now on, going most of the season with that and postseason, it doesn't solve anything. Spurs have been trending to having Manu play more off the ball, and off other people, than having him handle the ball so much and depending on him to make plays. Therefore, that together with what I pointed above, makes me believe starting Manu is not the solution. Maybe Pop gives a chance to Patty, but like I said he's not better than Tony in terms of court vision and passing.

I have a solution, but I am not being realistic. Maybe Kyle is a year away. Pop knows his team better. If he's not ready, Tony will have to step it up. I don't think anyone else of our PG/SG can provide passing like Manu can and at 38 you don't want to rely on him to make chemistry happen in the first unit. Kyle is the younger developing prospect.

I follow you, but we're trying to win this season, with Manu and Tim. If you were to tell me we're on a 2-3 year building schedule, I'll say throw Kyle into the fire and for that matter, Simmons and Boban too. So we're kinda in a bind in that aspect.

[ElNono]

Putting Manu on the starting 5 means you have a bench with no one who can create a shot or get penetration. The offense would really struggle when the 2nd unit takes the floor. Green certainly can't create his shot, and Patty isn't much better at this point.

This is true to an extent, but Tony could get some of those minutes, and since there's always a bit more leeway in the bench since you're playing against arguably lesser opponents, it's easier to experiment with guys like Simmons, McCallum, etc...

The problem right now is that the starter's offense is pretty putrid if we're not hitting jumpshots... it might sort itself out with chemistry down the road... or it might need some tweaks

[ElNono]

Not really. The starters just need to drop the Hoosiers shit and feed the two actual scorers, LMA and Kawhi, early and often. That unit has the potential to be the best defensive starting 5 in the league, but the Parker-dribble and Duncan post ups are just a waste of time. The ball needs to be in Kawhi's or Lamarcus' hand every single possession, and everyone else can get theirs off of passes.

On a related note, Kawhi needs to get better at dumping the ball off to bigs when he gets to the paint and sucks their man over. He's leaving about 5 assists a night on the court right now.

This is something else I noticed. I thought we would be more feeding LMA much more than we have so far.

[TrainOfThought5]

I follow you, but we're trying to win this season, with Manu and Tim. If you were to tell me we're on a 2-3 year building schedule, I'll say throw Kyle into the fire and for that matter, Simmons and Boban too. So we're kinda in a bind in that aspect.

We almost won it all 2012 in a "rebuilding" year. We can do it again. KA isnt a rookie, and honestly neither is Boban. If Pop would let them take their lumps now we could be in good shape come may.

[TrainOfThought5]

This is something else I noticed. I thought we would Be feeding LMA much more than we have so far.

I think that's an inaccurate statement. There have been a few times where Lamarcus has got the ball after screens and passed up open looks. Hes so wrapped up in fitting in that he wont let the offense come to him. I think in the beginning he should shoot the open looks off of the pick and pop. And then with his defender starts closing hard on him he should drive by him draw the double and look for the kick out. once this happens, it will add more flow to the offense and create a more hybrid version of the adaptive look that pop is looking for.

[apalisoc_9]

This is something else I noticed. I thought we would be more feeding LMA much more than we have so far.

disagree. Kawhi and LMA are getting the shots early. It's the closing where the team opts to go to parker..

[HarlemHeat37]

This is something else I noticed. I thought we would be more feeding LMA much more than we have so far.

The type of shots that Aldridge is getting is a bigger problem than the number IMO..

[Kawhitstorm]

I just think he would provide better spacing if we're going repeatedly to Kawhi/LMA/Tim in the post... nobody is scared of Tony's shot, but Patty is a different story, IMO... defensively at this point is a wash, tbh, with Patty maybe having a slight advantage due to quicker feet....

Again, the solution is a simple pick-n-pop. Jason Terry wasn't a great ball handler or playmaker but the guy made a career running pick-n-pops. I'm assuming Pop know he can always run PnP w/ West/LMA so he's working on PnRs/post-ups/isolations.

[SAGirl]

I follow you, but we're trying to win this season, with Manu and Tim. If you were to tell me we're on a 2-3 year building schedule, I'll say throw Kyle into the fire and for that matter, Simmons and Boban too. So we're kinda in a bind in that aspect.
I hear you, and ultimately we go the way of the old vets, sink or swim. Tony/Danny will fix their issues or they won't. I don't think switching Patty/Manu with them in any combination is an answer. Manu we have discussed and Patty, I don't believe is a better option at PG than Tony.

We probably are overreacting to 5 games, but we have noticed the sticky ball on these 5 games, we saw it in preseason with the first unit, and we saw signs of it from last season, they have only been magnified. I believe Pop will continue to give more chances to this group to get it together, but if its not solved within a reasonable schedule, it is time to get experimental. It is early season and hopefully they will get it together. If they don't, they won't win a championship like they are, and maybe Kyle or anyone won't save them at that point, which is kind of waht you are saying I think.

[Kawhitstorm]

Not really. The starters just need to drop the Hoosiers shit and feed the two actual scorers, LMA and Kawhi, early and often. That unit has the potential to be the best defensive starting 5 in the league, but the Parker-dribble and Duncan post ups are just a waste of time. The ball needs to be in Kawhi's or Lamarcus' hand every single possession, and everyone else can get theirs off of passes.



That's basically the OKC offense w/ Russy/KD.

[Kikoluna]

Tbh Pop doesn't have the balls to move TP to the bench.

See, you do agree with me.

[SAGirl]

This is something else I noticed. I thought we would be more feeding LMA much more than we have so far.
I agree with this, and its a big problem. From what I have observed, the offense has a lot of side PnR action with both big men, but neither Kawhi nor Danny are particularly good at this kind of play.

TD likes the left elbow, same as LMA and often many plays end up for TD there, bc he grabbed position early. Tony also has infinitely more chemistry with TD than LMA and as a side effect, many TD PnR actions end up in plays finished by Tony. When you want to go away from Tony finishing plays, I think you also want to go away from TD in the PnR. There is some bumping going on TBH.

As suspected LMA/Diaw is better, since Diaw makes plays from all over, and is not keen on grabbing position in a particular spot.

I think the elephant in the room is that neither Kawhi nor Aldridge are particularly gifted passers. They have demonstrated unselfish play but its better if they are doing what they do best, score, than setting other ppl up.

[SanAntonioSpurs23]

Or Pop needs to stagger lineups more and take Parker out sooner and give him more minutes w/ 2nd unit and Patty more minutes w/ 1st unit. Don't necessarily have to start Patty to accommodate OP's notion.. tbh

This^.

[Clipper Nation]

Porker's game isn't conducive to being an effective bench player & Danny has to play w/ the big boys to get open looks when the defense cheats. The solution is to bench Porker in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th quarters. Heeeeeroooooooo Ball (c) Enirique:bang

FIFY

[ElNono]

We almost won it all 2012 in a "rebuilding" year. We can do it again. KA isnt a rookie, and honestly neither is Boban. If Pop would let them take their lumps now we could be in good shape come may.

The Spurs have not changed this much since at least 2002, tbh... especially with the role changes due to the aging HoFs...

[ElNono]

I think that's an inaccurate statement. There have been a few times where Lamarcus has got the ball after screens and passed up open looks. Hes so wrapped up in fitting in that he wont let the offense come to him. I think in the beginning he should shoot the open looks off of the pick and pop. And then with his defender starts closing hard on him he should drive by him draw the double and look for the kick out. once this happens, it will add more flow to the offense and create a more hybrid version of the adaptive look that pop is looking for.

Well, I don't think we'll go full blown Portland, but we do pass up posting him up quite a bit, tbh... now I don't disagree that he also looks tentative and has even passed up shots he should take... but his usage I don't think it's as big as I thought it would be. My opinion, obviously.

[look_at_g_shred]

Anyway to get Steph by next game? Then probably not.

[MaNu4Tres]

The type of shots that Aldridge is getting is a bigger problem than the number IMO..

All starts and ends with his footwork and legs-- which is tied to his weight gain.

Losing 15 pounds from all the wine and dine's this summer would help more than the journalism major's/Spurs expert twitter pro's realize.

[Mugen]

Terrible post by OP per par tbh.....

[ElNono]

Terrible post by OP per par tbh.....

haters gonna hate, tbh

[Mugen]

I wonder what kind of bonus OP gets if El Cliente starts half the season tbh.

[ElNono]

Dead people don't get bonuses, tbh

[Chinook]

Anyone in the first-year of a contract has a player-option trade exemption via bird rights.

No. Only one-year and one-and-one guys who have re-signed with their teams (like Lebron, Duncan and Manu) have the de-facto no-trade clause.

[Mugen]

I'll play along I guess...

Porky PG has actually done a decent job of running the offense. Spacing/PG play really hasn't been an issue as much as Green not hitting shots and guys not knowing where they're supposed to be, issues that will be rectified with more time.....

Lot of discussion over a meaningless Nov. loss at the end of a East Coast trip against a team the Spurs will roll by 20+ when they play them at home tbh.....

[Neurosis]

Whatever Mills' or Kyle Anderson's flaws, they're at least better defenders than Parker. Plus Mills has a 3PT shot and Anderson can create better than Parker and will only get better. Parker should just be a backup. We don't need Parker in this first unit - all he brings is a half-decent mid-range jumper and easy layups against scrubs.

Parker is perfect for trashing lower skilled teams and taking the pressure off Kawhi/LMA to perform all the time every game. Instead they focus on getting the crucial baskets.

I don't know how good Mills or Anderson would be starting, but I think it's time to just throw them in there because Parker's not working. Either way we're screwed, may as well try and find a solution before May and it's too late.

[SAGirl]

I just thought about this some more and what is more likely to happen is just Pop going to post ups to close out a game, and get away from the PnR with Tony in general. Try to get the ball into your two best players like in the Celtics game. The backcourt is probably going to stay as it is. Those guys will figure it out.

Anderson is just going to continue to get chances to develop his game, particularly for those moments when Manu is resting.

Tony and Danny will carry the backcourt, we will just need to have the ball much more in the hands of our two best players, which I don't even know why Pop didn't go to that at all.

By the way, just came accross this in an article on SAEN on Aldridge: Apparently Kyle sat in the second half because of a bruise on his right shoulder.

Second-year forward Kyle Anderson did not play in the second half in Washington after colliding with the Wizards’ Nene.
Anderson, who had his right shoulder iced after the game, said he was banged up but doesn’t think the issue will carry over to Saturday’s game against Charlotte.
http://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/Popovich-takes-hands-off-approach-to-adjusting-6613392.php?t=03ef9d3ed6927fc3fb&cmpid=twitter-premium

[MultiTroll]

Something I just mentioned in another thread, but I think it's worth discussing on it's own.
It's a relatively small sample size, but i have all 7 games Pattycake has started as a Spur. I'm letting you know El Nono i gave up, well i watched in a distracted mode the last half of Jeopardy and part of a Judas Priest concert as i researched Pattys Starter stats.

5 - 2 (I posted all the details on "Patty Mills record and stats as a starter" thread)
The two losses essentially do not count, as they were both the infamous games where Pop sat Duncan, GNob, Green and Parker.

Since we both know some moron(s) will now post "So you're saying the Spurs will go undefeated with Patty as a starter." No. It's just a reference. The most relevant game, vs Golden State last Dec 19th, Patty rocked with:

34 min
20 pts 8 - 17
5 assists
3 steals.
Meanwhile Phaggot Curry 12-28 after chasing Patty around rather then being on snooze control.

Already been posted how it's really who finishes that counts. Nonetheless with Patty starting it seems we will always get his infectious enthusiasm. Not with the other guy.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

No. Only one-year and one-and-one guys who have re-signed with their teams (like Lebron, Duncan and Manu) have the de-facto no-trade clause.
so Bonner, too?

[Chinook]

so Bonner, too?

Yes.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Yes.
Quote this whenever some idiot on ST inevitably tries to include Bonner in a potential trade deal with a lottery team around the deadline this year. Bonner will do the Devean George and block such a trade, he cares about winning too.

[Chinook]

Quote this whenever some idiot on ST inevitably tries to include Bonner in a potential trade deal with a lottery team around the deadline this year. Bonner will do the Devean George and block such a trade, he cares about winning too.

I don't think he will. The Spurs have given him good money over the years, and I think he'd accept a trade if the club really wanted it to happen.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

I don't think he will. The Spurs have given him good money over the years, and I think he'd accept a trade if the club really wanted it to happen.
I don't think so, particularly since the last CBA banned the 30 day buy-out and re-up schtick. He doesn't want to be denied his last opportunity to win a ring with the others

[Chinook]

I don't think so, particularly since the last CBA banned the 30 day buy-out and re-up schtick. He doesn't want to be denied his last opportunity to win a ring with the others

They can, and will just cut him. He doesn't get to force his way onto the team is they don't want him.

Plus, the Spurs can just give him a ring if they win after trading him. There's no rule against that.

[Lostwingman]

I can't believe people on Spurstalk are actually in favor of starting SloMo to HELP our defense.

Have you guys ever actually watched him play? smh

Wait, were people really arguing for him to improve defense? I thought people wanted him to add a playmaker/distributer to the SL? At the least, he would be a net 0 on defense relative to Parker when you have Danny and Kawhi out there.

[wildbill2u]

We could have the perfect backcourt with a couple of simple trades that would be easy to make if only RC and Pop would pull their heads out of their ass and take some advice. We should trade Parker for John Wall and Patty for Chris Paul and get it done before the trade deadline.

I know there are some haters who will disagree, but I can't hear you, nyah, nyah, nyah, lalalalalalalalalalalalala La. So there.

[spursistan]

Great discussion OP...When your lead assist man in SL is 40-yo PF/c Tim Duncan (3.4 APG), you got a playmaking problem..it's easy..I will go with staggering minutes solution (per Parker) in the next 10 games and see what's going on before touching the Green-Kawhi foundation..

[SAGirl]

Great discussion OP...When your lead assist man in SL is 40-yo PF/c Tim Duncan (3.4 APG), you got a playmaking problem..it's easy..I will go with staggering minutes solution (per Parker) in the next 10 games and see what's going on before touching the Green-Kawhi foundation..
I agree with you. I think Pop will continue to give opportunities to these guys before altering what they are doing, but he is already subbing Patty and Diaw sooner, and has Patty with Tony a whole lot more together than he's had them in the past. Its possibly because of Patty's shooting, but also because Patty handles the ball and moves off the ball better than Danny, and Danny is currently slumping in his shooting.

I think Danny will continue to get opportunities and he's bound to get hot soon. If that doesn't happen within the next 10 games or we loose some unexpected games, we might see some Ginobili sooner. I used to think Kyle should get a chance, like I have posted a few days past, but I now think that Pop will be extremely reluctant to do that.

Kyle's in a short leash even in the bench as it is. Pop is not going to fast track him in any way, unless he starts to shoot 3s at a high rate, which is not his game... so our best hope right now is for these guys to figure it out soon.

[urunobili]

Butler or Anderson for Green for starters.

[Kawhitstorm]

David West is a better playmaker than Porker

[Kawhitstorm]

That was a STUPID forced shot by Manu........2-for-1 w/ a 2 second game clock/shot clock difference, WTF

[Kawhitstorm]

I agree with you. I think Pop will continue to give opportunities to these guys before altering what they are doing, but he is already subbing Patty and Diaw sooner, and has Patty with Tony a whole lot more together than he's had them in the past. Its possibly because of Patty's shooting, but also because Patty handles the ball and moves off the ball better than Danny, and Danny is currently slumping in his shooting.


In 2013-14, Belly was starting in December b/c Danny was stinking it up to the point that he might have been the worst starter on a contender during the month of December.

[RD2191]

We could have the perfect backcourt with a couple of simple trades that would be easy to make if only RC and Pop would pull their heads out of their ass and take some advice. We should trade Parker for John Wall and Patty for Chris Paul and get it done before the trade deadline.

I know there are some haters who will disagree, but I can't hear you, nyah, nyah, nyah, lalalalalalalalalalalalala La. So there.

Look at this faggot.

[spursistan]

.

[SAGirl]

In 2013-14, Belly was starting in December b/c Danny was stinking it up to the point that he might have been the worst starter on a contender during the month of December.
I missed that time. I wasn't following the team as closely as now. Thanks for sharing that. :toast

[Robz4000]

Welp, I wasn't about it before (still teetering), but it's obvious Mills needs to be inserted earlier at least (or Manu). Team goes from average to the Beautiful Game really quick once he's out.

[sasaint]

I agree with this, and its a big problem. From what I have observed, the offense has a lot of side PnR action with both big men, but neither Kawhi nor Danny are particularly good at this kind of play.

TD likes the left elbow, same as LMA and often many plays end up for TD there, bc he grabbed position early. Tony also has infinitely more chemistry with TD than LMA and as a side effect, many TD PnR actions end up in plays finished by Tony. When you want to go away from Tony finishing plays, I think you also want to go away from TD in the PnR. There is some bumping going on TBH.

As suspected LMA/Diaw is better, since Diaw makes plays from all over, and is not keen on grabbing position in a particular spot.

I think the elephant in the room is that neither Kawhi nor Aldridge are particularly gifted passers. They have demonstrated unselfish play but its better if they are doing what they do best, score, than setting other ppl up.

After tonight, I think Patty has surpassed Tony on both ends of the floor. With the overlap in LMA and TD's positioning preferences and the rebounding deficiencies with the West/Diaw combo, the answer is plain. Starting lineup: LMA, Boris, Kawhi, Manu, Patty; 2nd unit: Timmy, DWest, Butler, Green, Tony.

If Manu didn't flinch at going to the bench, neither should Tony or Timmy, for that matter. In fact, I would argue that playing on our second unit has a certain cache - right now that unit consists of Manu, Patty and Boris, all fan favorites. Moreover, by moving Timmy into the second unit with Tony, we keep Tony in his most effective pairing. (As an aside, while many here think this is probably Timmy's last season, I have my doubts. In fact I think/hope it is the plan to keep TD for 3 years, the final two of which I suspect he is already slated for the second unit, once the transition has been made to "Kawhi and Lamarcus' team.)

Pop will never trade Tony, and I'm afraid that hiding him in the first unit no longer seems realistic.

[HarlemHeat37]

^^ That starting lineup would be absolutely horrendous on defense, tbh:lol..

Spurs aren't going to alter the SL..Pop just has to blend the units, whether it's matchup-based or rhythm-based, and have quick hooks when needed, that's all IMO..

[SAGirl]

I am not sure what can be done about the SL, despite having premier scorers and an elite 3 pt shooter they are not in sync, Tony is not ideal with them unless he's scoring and we are not winning that way. I am not saying he should be passive all the time, but he lacks in playmaking. Of everyone in the SL he is the one most exposed. I also saw Danny with too many plays off the dribble or taking midrange jumpshots. Seriously, if we are having our SG make off the dribble plays and go for midrange jumpshots go to Anderson. I know he looked bad tonight, but he's now been bit by the hesitation passive bug and the Pop will bench me timidness. Guys need to play to get confidence.

The starting unit is consistently getting outscored. If we are counting on Manu to turn back the clock on a nightly basis we are in trouble fir the long run. I agree at some point Pop might have to pull Tony' s ear or experiment more than he has. He's been unlikely to bench Tony. Like many say, maybe we even get past the Clippers last season if we play Cojo at least fir 10 minutes. Right now Pop succeeded in getting Lamarcus going but the SL is still out of sync.

[kaji157]

The easiest move you could do is insert Patty and bench Tony.
That way you can rest Manu a bit more letting Tony handle some offenses for the second unit and having him fresh to finish games.
The problem with Parker as of now is that it seems that whatever player attacks him and scores.
If that is the case then he won´t do good for the second unit as he will take away ball movement and be a worse defender.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Tony Parker is not a starting pg anymore.

Until he starts defending, he is probably not even a backup if you're a serious championship contender.

Spurs would not stop winning if he was relegated to third pg.

Not gonna happen of course...

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Parker not benched and diminished there would be no 2014 Championship.

Parker benched and diminished we win the Clippers series.

Whether we pull the plug or not on Parker will also determine this season.

[Mouth is Bleeding]

Sure there will be times where he'll be scoring but any scrub pg in the league will and can do that.

He needs to concentrate on defending first and foremost then do an Avery impression on offense fully taking a backseat. At least there are some signs of that which is step one.

Then he needs to lose tons of minutes to Patty and Manu and every time he is failing defending or that we can't hide him somewhere and put Danny on the pg or that he is overdribbling instead of penetrating and on top of that chucking he will need to be benched in the 4th quarter.

Those are the minimums and we can at least have minimum hope of getting to challenge Golden State.

[HI-FI]

Welp, I wasn't about it before (still teetering), but it's obvious Mills needs to be inserted earlier at least (or Manu). Team goes from average to the Beautiful Game really quick once he's out.
but dribble dribble dribble dribble pass is beautiful too :cry

[ceperez]

After tonight, I think Patty has surpassed Tony on both ends of the floor. With the overlap in LMA and TD's positioning preferences and the rebounding deficiencies with the West/Diaw combo, the answer is plain. Starting lineup: LMA, Boris, Kawhi, Manu, Patty; 2nd unit: Timmy, DWest, Butler, Green, Tony.

If Manu didn't flinch at going to the bench, neither should Tony or Timmy, for that matter. In fact, I would argue that playing on our second unit has a certain cache - right now that unit consists of Manu, Patty and Boris, all fan favorites. Moreover, by moving Timmy into the second unit with Tony, we keep Tony in his most effective pairing. (As an aside, while many here think this is probably Timmy's last season, I have my doubts. In fact I think/hope it is the plan to keep TD for 3 years, the final two of which I suspect he is already slated for the second unit, once the transition has been made to "Kawhi and Lamarcus' team.)

Pop will never trade Tony, and I'm afraid that hiding him in the first unit no longer seems realistic.

I would go with LMA, Boris, Kawhi, Green, Parker for the first team.

and Duncan, West, Anderson, Manu, Mills for the 2nd team. Having Duncan and LMA on the court at the same time just congests the lane for Kawhi and Parker.

In fact, I would say that having LMA, Duncan and Leonard in the court at the same time is problematic in offense.

Right now, the first team sucks despite having so many good games by Leonard.

[dabom]

The first team isn't too great because they have to carry a POS washed out worst starter in the league.

[dabom]

Kawhi Duncan LMA/Manu have been getting us ugly wins so far

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi Duncan LMA/Manu have been getting us ugly wins so far

[Kawhitstorm]

I missed that time. I wasn't following the team as closely as now. Thanks for sharing that. :toast

Talking of sharing......You are so selfish! You’re going to have that body the rest of your life and why won't you share it w/ me for one night?:lol

[100%duncan]

How about Patty Manu?

[still.focused]

The only change that needs to be made is getting Parker off the ball
Cant start Mills because hes undersized SG not a PG and you lose his bench spark
Cant start Manu because Patty Mills & the 2nd unit thrive on his playmaking & you lose the bench ENTIRELY
The only immediate answer is McCallum which Id be okay wit
He a high motor, younger, faster & larger NBA PG.
Not sold on his scoring but thats not something we need out of our starting PG at at
Its actually what we need least. Hed only have to score enough to keep defenses honest
Sadly,m its gonna take some kinda historic event to ever see Parker benched
Just like the ball hes not going to give up his starting role willngly no matter how much it makes the team better

[SASdynasty!]

We're 2 shots away from being 6-0 with Parker as a starter. We're gonna be fine.