Thoughts on the Offense

[-21-]

First of all, I know it's early in the season, it's gonna take some time to gel, etc. It's just that I don't like what I've seen so far. Not enough ball movement, and when the ball does move, it usually ends with a long mid-range jumper. A couple steps back and that shot could count for three points (we're currently 27th in 3pt attempts per game). Add to that the usual mid-range pull-ups from Tony/Kawhi and it feels like the team is taking a bunch of inefficient shots. Also, although Kawhi and LaMarcus are very skilled at it, they are going too much to those iso post-ups that stop the ball. My point is, even when the team gels and shots start falling, I'm worried that the offense won't be as good as the previous Spurs teams that were difficult to defend.

[spurs10]

Well I think it is going to be different from our previous play. The addition of LMA and the advent of Kawhi is a different look for us. Now if we can get Danny in rhythm and TP and Tim can make them pay when they double, we might have a better shot at getting a basket when we need one.

Hopefully last game where shots wouldn't fall at end will be an anomaly.

[313]

(we're currently 27th in 3pt attempts per game)
lol antiquated 90 mid range basketball
lol kiwi

[silverblackfan]

I think you need to trust your first thought. It is early in the season. Let Pop and the coaches gets some game film and build the offense as the season continues. The team can keep a pretty damn good record while they figure it out on talent alone.

[lilbthebasedgod]

We suck right now. I think that's pretty clear. All I can do is play armchair coach and say that I think most of our problems come from our rotations and our chemistry. The turnovers should improve throughout the year and our defense is bad during stretches with specific lineups. I think over time these can be smoothed out.

[SAGirl]

Even Timmy said he doesn't know what his role is in this offense. Lamarcus has not really asserted himself, he's been extremely deferential and in hesitation mode, which throws his rhythm off.

Kawhi came into the season with a killer/assassin mind, which is great because he lacked that previously and he's determined to have an aggressive mentality this time.

IMO what this unit lacks is a glue guy, a true passer. I think there is a reason the best lineup to close out games and during playoffs recently included Diaw. He was the true passer in this team when he was subbed to close games and during the post season started a lot of games. His creativity created a lot of opportunities for everyone. When he was in the lineup, the ball moved much better not only because of the spacing, but because he was such a versatile player and terrific passer.

Without Diaw, the ball stagnates. None of these guys in the SL are passers, except for TD.

Tony is a scoring PG, Danny is a spot up shooter, Kawhi is an iso scorer/shooter, Lamarcus is an iso big with range on his shot. TD is really the only one who can pass on the fly and is good at reading defenders, finding cutters and such. Some games he's had the most assists in the starting lineup so there you have it. For TD to do what he does, he needs spots on the floor that bump Lamarcus out, so there is some bumping going on.

To top off their problems, both Danny and LMA have been slumping. It may be that Pop will want LMA to be uber aggressive and draw double teams to start a kick out, but LMA has not been the greatest passer. It is a problem that I think has been discussed in another thread.

[Mnky]

I agree about the glue guy. This has always been an issue with San Antonio as Tony Parker has always been a small sg. Manu helped hide him for years as Manu was a big pg.

Kawhi, doesn't know how to run an offense yet but us getting better. He really needs to get down his instincts on offense and have faith it will come since he has such great instincts on defense. Once he learns to see the court and know where his players are before he attacks, he Wil be much better for the team. He has the highest usage rate of all spurs by quite a bit, and him not knowing how to create for his teammates creates a huge damper on the system. He creates great situations for his team Mates but hardly ever takes advantage of it. His vision just is not very good at all on offense.

LMA is trying too hard to fit in and needs to just demand the ball a 100 times and miss a 100 shots and passes so he can figure out where everyone will be, and what spots of the floor will be his. Hes perfect for the spurs system tho, and him and Kawhi will be deadly together once they get it clicking on the same page.

PG is an issue for the spurs on defense and distributing. Diaw and Manu are the best distributors but are both second unit. If egos weren't in the way, Tim should go to the bench and diaw should start with lma. That won't happen tho.
Pop makes early substitutions so far tho to get this type of effect.

All that being said, 3-2. 1 lose to thunder at home with some very fluky shooting by thunder support cast, and a breakdown on defense and clutch game winning 3 by Beal for the second loss.

I'd say spurs are doing just fine. Offense will pickup when people get comfortable and we get definitive playmakers running each set. If Kawhi could develop his distribution game that would be perfect, but right now its limiting the spurs greatly as you don't want your highest usage rate going to someone with the lowest assist rate. That usually equals low scoring offense and bad transition defense due to Turnover ratios.

[SAGirl]

I agree about the glue guy. This has always been an issue with San Antonio as Tony Parker has always been a small sg. Manu helped hide him for years as Manu was a big pg.

Kawhi, doesn't know how to run an offense yet but us getting better. He really needs to get down his instincts on offense and have faith it will come since he has such great instincts on defense. Once he learns to see the court and know where his players are before he attacks, he Wil be much better for the team. He has the highest usage rate of all spurs by quite a bit, and him not knowing how to create for his teammates creates a huge damper on the system. He creates great situations for his team Mates but hardly ever takes advantage of it. His vision just is not very good at all on offense.

LMA is trying too hard to fit in and needs to just demand the ball a 100 times and miss a 100 shots and passes so he can figure out where everyone will be, and what spots of the floor will be his. Hes perfect for the spurs system tho, and him and Kawhi will be deadly together once they get it clicking on the same page.

PG is an issue for the spurs on defense and distributing. Diaw and Manu are the best distributors but are both second unit. If egos weren't in the way, Tim should go to the bench and diaw should start with lma. That won't happen tho.
Pop makes early substitutions so far tho to get this type of effect.

All that being said, 3-2. 1 lose to thunder at home with some very fluky shooting by thunder support cast, and a breakdown on defense and clutch game winning 3 by Beal for the second loss.

I'd say spurs are doing just fine. Offense will pickup when people get comfortable and we get definitive playmakers running each set. If Kawhi could develop his distribution game that would be perfect, but right now its limiting the spurs greatly as you don't want your highest usage rate going to someone with the lowest assist rate. That usually equals low scoring offense and bad transition defense due to Turnover ratios.
I think the solution eventually may be subbing Kyle Anderson for Danny. But Danny already takes the toughest assignments on D at times. It is no secret that Danny is better on quick and smaller guards, since Kawhi is now big and large enough that the smaller quick guys are indeed able to give him the slip and sometimes just run him through a screen. Beal and Otto Porter easily handled Kawhi this game in that fashion.

For Kyle to start at SG would take a leap of tremendous fashion that he maybe is not ready for. He's also not the shooter that Danny is. However, Danny has been terrible to start, extremely TO prone. I have seen double dribbles from Danny, inability to grab a basketball while in motion, passes to guys that are not open. It is to the point with Danny that Pop is having Patty and Tony play together. I do believe Kyle is every bit the passer to create opportunities for others, but for such an inexperienced player to get that kind of role in a championship aspiring team it would take this team skidding for several more losses to get Danny benched for example.

I am not sure if Kawhi is ever going to take that next step as a passer. I think Pop hopes he does, etc. but Pop himself has said, and from experience observing players and basketball, what the elite passers do truly cannot be taught.

[xellos88330]

LaMarcus needs to start rolling to the basket more often instead of popping out after the screen, or even slipping the screen altogether. I have seen numerous occasions when the lane is wide open, but he settles for the pnp. This throws off the pass timing and also clogs things up on the perimeter and makes the motion of the wings limited to baseline. Of course, all of this could change once Aldridge finds his rhythm.

[tholdren]

Too many kl jumpers. Kwimelo anthonard

[DarrinS]

That whole "beautiful game", which was taken to ridiculous levels in the 2014 Finals, is the product of guys playing a LOT of games together. Also helps when you have elite passers on the floor (Manu, Borris) and players moving without the ball (think Patty and Marco). Adding a new marquee player and asking Kawhi to carry a larger offensive role is naturally going to change that dynamic. The ball "sticking" is players hesitating and thinking about what they want to do, instead of playing instinctually, which will come, but it will take time. We also need at least one player who will consistently attack the rim.

[DarrinS]

We also aren't getting many easy fast break points off turnovers. And DG has had a very cold start.

[skin27]

too many iso play for lamarcus and kawhi..

[tholdren]

That whole "beautiful game", which was taken to ridiculous levels in the 2014 Finals, is the product of guys playing a LOT of games together. Also helps when you have elite passers on the floor (Manu, Borris) and players moving without the ball (think Patty and Marco). Adding a new marquee player and asking Kawhi to carry a larger offensive role is naturally going to change that dynamic. The ball "sticking" is players hesitating and thinking about what they want to do, instead of playing instinctually, which will come, but it will take time. We also need at least one player who will consistently attack the rim.

No one on the team has any nuts but manu. No one will, or can, attack

[YGWHI]

This season is an adaption process for the Spurs. Focusing on the proccess rather than the outcome is the easiest way to not worry.

[YGWHI]

I am not sure if Kawhi is ever going to take that next step as a passer. I think Pop hopes he does, etc. but Pop himself has said, and from experience observing players and basketball, what the elite passers do truly cannot be taught.
Instead of hoping he becomes into an amazing point forward which will take years to development...I'd expect the Spurs to have a point guard who can distribute the ball better, at least that sounds more natural...

[loveforthegame]

More movement without the ball would help some. Guys are standing around to see what Leonard or Aldridge is going to do in the post. Either clear out so a second defender can't linger in between or make a hard cut to the basket.

[TheMulletMan3000]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-WmJZFOIhY

[BillMc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-WmJZFOIhY

Nice vid. Thanks for posting. Never heard of this guy before, but I liked it. :toast

[TheMulletMan3000]

Nice vid. Thanks for posting. Never heard of this guy before, but I liked it. :toast

No problem. If you are interested (and if this hasn't been posted) check out coach Mike (channel about defense)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UipM10DdG0
Also, share if you know some interesting channels :toast

[SAGirl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-WmJZFOIhY

Thanks for sharing. That was an awesome video. What is telling is that many of those sequences (if not most) involve a combination of bench players in Diaw, Patty and Manu. There are even some bench players who are getting very limited minutes in Butler, Anderson and West. If you look at the offense from just the starting squad it does not look very much like it does in the video. In the Wiz game there was a lack of off the ball movement, cutting and setting of screens like someone mentioned above.

Coach Daniel also makes reference to how the best action sometimes is unscripted and comes out of the talent of of guys moving and being unselfish. Sets are there to put guys in spots, but what they do in those spots and how they read the situation varies depending on who is playing.

Danny being cold is a real issue. If he doesn't have the 3 going, he doesn't give much on O unfortunately, and his mistakes on TO, and careless in passing have been costly.

[spursistan]

Green is 5-25 from 3PT; 20%..That's not even close to his 30-35% when is in middle of an Icy stretch..I think him getting a bit of groove will unlock few other facets of the offense, though it is true the flow of ball movement has left to lot to be desired for objective reasons (LMA-Kawhi iso ball etc..)..

[TheMulletMan3000]

Thanks for sharing. That was an awesome video. What is telling is that many of those sequences (if not most) involve a combination of bench players in Diaw, Patty and Manu. There are even some bench players who are getting very limited minutes in Butler, Anderson and West. If you look at the offense from just the starting squad it does not look very much like it does in the video. In the Wiz game there was a lack of off the ball movement, cutting and setting of screens like someone mentioned above.

Coach Daniel also makes reference to how the best action sometimes is unscripted and comes out of the talent of of guys moving and being unselfish. Sets are there to put guys in spots, but what they do in those spots and how they read the situation varies depending on who is playing.

Danny being cold is a real issue. If he doesn't have the 3 going, he doesn't give much on O unfortunately, and his mistakes on TO, and careless in passing have been costly.

you're welcome. Can't wait to see how the game is going to develop when they get to know each other better.

[tholdren]

David west is afraid to set a pick

[Kawhi 5-0]

First of all, I know it's early in the season, it's gonna take some time to gel, etc. It's just that I don't like what I've seen so far. Not enough ball movement, and when the ball does move, it usually ends with a long mid-range jumper. A couple steps back and that shot could count for three points (we're currently 27th in 3pt attempts per game). Add to that the usual mid-range pull-ups from Tony/Kawhi and it feels like the team is taking a bunch of inefficient shots. Also, although Kawhi and LaMarcus are very skilled at it, they are going too much to those iso post-ups that stop the ball. My point is, even when the team gels and shots start falling, I'm worried that the offense won't be as good as the previous Spurs teams that were difficult to defend.

This is a legitimate concern. I think we saw the best version of the new offense in game 1 vs. OKC. That was probably how the offense was supposed to look. Somehow we've gotten away from that. I think it's as big an adjustment for the returning players as for Aldridge or West. It seems like the guys haven't internalized the principles of this new offense. The strategy seems to be to let Aldridge and Leonard run things more. Kawhi has done a pretty good job of it. Aldridge wants to be on the old Spurs. We need him to be aggressive. Things will click when we learn how to take advantage of what the other team is giving us. THAT is undefendable. Kawhi and Aldridge have the most natural advantages most nights due to athleticism and offensive skills (respectively). Kawhi's offensive game just gets better and better. Next step is passing out of double-teams, etc. Aldridge is really strong in the low post. The more he pounds and uses his strength, the more that midrange shot will complement his game. LMA can learn a few things from Diaw as far as taking advantage of taller defenders. The more Timmy teaches Aldridge, the better (as well). Tim has continued to produce at a high level against younger, more athletic defenders. Timmy needs to share the secrets up his sleeve. That's the passing of the torch!

[Agloco]

We suck right now. I think that's pretty clear.

The Spurs have lost both of their games by a combined 9 points, on the road. Relax.

Who honestly thinks that they won't vastly improve in the next 3-4 weeks?

[Lostwingman]

I'll just be happy to see Green shoot over 30% regularly...

[lilbthebasedgod]

The Spurs have lost both of their games by a combined 9 points, on the road. Relax.

Who honestly thinks that they won't vastly improve in the next 3-4 weeks?
I am pretty relaxed. We were playing garbage teams. When we won it didn't look good either. I'm saying we're better than we are playing.