Can the "Beautiful Game" work with the starters?

[midnightpulp]

Look at any compilation vid of the Spurs passing, and it will typically involve Manu, Diaw, and Duncan (all elite passers for their position) in some form.

The starting lineup, outside of Duncan, has no real playmakers. Tony can occasionally be a playmaker, but now that his penetration isn't what it used to be, he can't get the defense scrambling and rotating off dribble drive penetration. Tony's penetration was key in initiating the Spurs motion offense. He would kick to the corner, defense would rotate, if the corner 3 wasn't open, the shooter would pass, and the ball would eventually be worked around to an open shooter or find a cutter.

The starting lineup features 3 players who all excel in iso-post up situations (Kawhi, LMA, and Duncan, but he's fallen off in that regard). You're not going to see much motion offense with this group, especially since the lineup has no elite penetrators and finishers and only one (sometimes) elite shooter.

The Triangle (or a modification of it) makes much more sense for the starters than the Beautiful Game offense. Problem is, the Triangle usually needs a 3 point threat at the PG to create spacing for the triple post and uses a great deal of cutting. Though, I could see LMA and Kawhi excelling in the weakside two man game that begins with LMA at the elbow.

http://www.coachesclipboard.net/images/TOPinchPostB.PNG

And all the variations of that hand off play.

[HarlemHeat37]

Have the starters ever really played the "Beautiful Game", though?

IIRC, the starting unit has been more effective on defense than offense the past few years(excluding the last 2 months of 2015, where Kawhi went off)..

[Robz4000]

All the more reason to start MVPatty tbh.

[100%duncan]

Beautiful Game was always with Manu Patty Bobo imho. Starters are too iso-centric, given with the talent though and the lack of time to adjust, it's a given.

[kaji157]

The triangle can be a very good option for our starting five. Parker can do what fisher did he is a good 3pt shooter when set and that kind of offense doesn't need much movement from the pg. It would be a really good option to use some of those sets.

[midnightpulp]

Have the starters ever really played the "Beautiful Game", though?

IIRC, the starting unit has been more effective on defense than offense the past few years..

Shades of it now and then, when Parker was at the height of his dribble-drive powers where he was able to collapse the defense, but they never centered their offense around it, unless Manu came in.

I think Pop found something last game by running more pin down screens for LMA and hitting him off motion. LMA was on pace for a 25 point game if not for foul trouble. Don't want to see ball sticking post ups unless it's a mismatch.

Kawhi's offense worries me. As pretty as his turnaround jumpers off the post are, I don't think you can run a wing post up offense in today's league and expect to win the post-season. I'm hoping Leonard turns into a better penetrator. He may not have the hops to be an elite finisher, but he has the length and strength.

[Neurosis]

Our 2 biggest scoring threats are iso players. It reminds me of the Melo/Stoudemire situation in NY a few years back. Grinding out buckets down low every possession isn't a recipe for success unless you have deadly 3PT shooters to space the floor to punish double teams. We really only have DG right now and Kawhi can hit them but he's often the one in iso, which means he doesn't count as much as he should.

Ideally we need a second (ideally third) 3PT shooter on the floor that isn't Kawhi or Aldridge.

Playing more minutes for players like Mills, DG, Manu and Bobo to knockdown 3s is what we need to start the beautiful game. Manu and Bobo are the most common instigators of those sequences as because they're the best playmakers. Combos like Mills+Manu+TD or Mills+Bobo+Green around Kawhaldridge is the best way we'll see the beautiful game imo. I don't think you can do it without taking out at least 2 starters (assuming you're keeping your best 2 scorers on the floor at the same time).

Also not saying to play Manu more, he needs rest. But no reason not to have Mills out there more with the other 4 starters and mix Parker into second unit sometimes. He can still start but at some point you need to force other teams to make the decision between focussing on stoppingt Kawhi and Aldridge and make DG and Mills hit 3s, or force Aldridge and Kawhi to make plays 1on1. Either situation works for us I think, but you can't do it if you're running only 1 legitimate 3PT option in Green.

Unless Parker becomes a legit 3PT spotup threat we have to mix the lineups around better.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Our 2 biggest scoring threats are iso players. It reminds me of the Melo/Stoudemire situation in NY a few years back. Grinding out buckets down low every possession isn't a recipe for success unless you have deadly 3PT shooters to space the floor to punish double teams. We really only have DG right now and Kawhi can hit them but he's often the one in iso, which means he doesn't count as much as he should.

Ideally we need a second (ideally third) 3PT shooter on the floor that isn't Kawhi or Aldridge.

Playing more minutes for players like Mills, DG, Manu and Bobo to knockdown 3s is what we need to start the beautiful game. Manu and Bobo are the most common instigators of those sequences as because they're the best playmakers. Combos like Mills+Manu+TD or Mills+Bobo+Green around Kawhaldridge is the best way we'll see the beautiful game imo. I don't think you can do it without taking out at least 2 starters (assuming you're keeping your best 2 scorers on the floor at the same time).
where does that leave Parker, though?

[SAGirl]

Shades of it now and then, when Parker was at the height of his dribble-drive powers where he was able to collapse the defense, but they never centered their offense around it, unless Manu came in.

I think Pop found something last game by running more pin down screens for LMA and hitting him off motion. LMA was on pace for a 25 point game if not for foul trouble. Don't want to see ball sticking post ups unless it's a mismatch.

Kawhi's offense worries me. As pretty as his turnaround jumpers off the post are, I don't think you can run a wing post up offense in today's league and expect to win the post-season. I'm hoping Leonard turns into a better penetrator. He may not have the hops to be an elite finisher, but he has the length and strength.

He's not super fast off the dribble, and when he's had the ball in his hands to create for others and not to score, he's tended to turn it over. It's just not his game TBH. He has evolved into a scorer. He's better scoring than trying to set others up. I made a comment about it in another thread. That I do think the SL needs a glue guy, a passer who will make the right reads to take them to another level offensively. Who that passer is? I imagine in the post season Pop will use combinations of Manu/Boris to bolster passing when needed, but also there will probably be a lot of iso.

[YGWHI]

Both styles of offenses can co-exist together and be mixed...Sometimes Kawhi/LMA isos will take over and other times they'll move the ball...

Charlotte coach, Clifford said "You can't pigeonhole yourself into one style"

With All-Star caliber players LaMarcus Aldridge and Kawhi Leonard leading the team in touches, the Spurs — in Clifford’s view — should be a big mid-range shooting team.
“I wouldn’t fight it either,” Clifford said. “Aldridge isn’t a normal player. He’s a star-level player. With Leonard, both of them could be superstars.
“If you have someone of that talent, you’re going to play to the strengths of your best players.”

In LMA/Kawhi case that means isos post and mid-range shots

[Neurosis]

Play him either when you don't have Kawhaldridge on the floor together, OR when Bonner is on the floor with them...but seriously which one would you choose?

Parker isn't horrible but he doesn't have a place in an offense centered around Kawhaldridge (as it should be).

[YGWHI]

Kawhi's offense worries me. As pretty as his turnaround jumpers off the post are, I don't think you can run a wing post up offense in today's league and expect to win the post-season. I'm hoping Leonard turns into a better penetrator. He may not have the hops to be an elite finisher, but he has the length and strength.

His offense isn't based just on post ups...He can't be too reliant on that post-game since his teammates can't consistently make an entry pass to him...

Anyway, we saw some nice team-work with him coming off a screen for a quick release jump shot, Tim found Kawhi several times in the game against Wizards when he cutting to the rim...

Agree with you, I'd like to see him attacking the hoop from different angles more often until he finds his way...but for some reason Pop doesn't encourage him to do it.

Edit: 63 FG% restricted area, 53.3 FG% in the paint...he seems to be a decent finisher after all, also an efficient mid-range shooter 50 FG%.

http://stats.nba.com/league/player/#!/shooting/?CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*SAS&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&DistanceRange=By%20Zone&sort=Mid-Range%20FGA&dir=1

[YGWHI]

I think Pop found something last game by running more pin down screens for LMA and hitting him off motion. LMA was on pace for a 25 point game if not for foul trouble. Don't want to see ball sticking post ups unless it's a mismatch.

Well, Parker didn't exploit mismatches in the last games...and Tim/Manu/Boris can't play 48 minutes...it's likely we'll see a lot of more LMA post-ups.

[HarlemHeat37]

Our 2 biggest scoring threats are iso players. It reminds me of the Melo/Stoudemire situation in NY a few years back. Grinding out buckets down low every possession isn't a recipe for success unless you have deadly 3PT shooters to space the floor to punish double teams. We really only have DG right now and Kawhi can hit them but he's often the one in iso, which means he doesn't count as much as he should.

Ideally we need a second (ideally third) 3PT shooter on the floor that isn't Kawhi or Aldridge.

Playing more minutes for players like Mills, DG, Manu and Bobo to knockdown 3s is what we need to start the beautiful game. Manu and Bobo are the most common instigators of those sequences as because they're the best playmakers. Combos like Mills+Manu+TD or Mills+Bobo+Green around Kawhaldridge is the best way we'll see the beautiful game imo. I don't think you can do it without taking out at least 2 starters (assuming you're keeping your best 2 scorers on the floor at the same time).

Also not saying to play Manu more, he needs rest. But no reason not to have Mills out there more with the other 4 starters and mix Parker into second unit sometimes. He can still start but at some point you need to force other teams to make the decision between focussing on stoppingt Kawhi and Aldridge and make DG and Mills hit 3s, or force Aldridge and Kawhi to make plays 1on1. Either situation works for us I think, but you can't do it if you're running only 1 legitimate 3PT option in Green.

Unless Parker becomes a legit 3PT spotup threat we have to mix the lineups around better.

Nice post, tbh..

Parker really hasn't been as bad as the perception here, so far, offensively, at least from a scoring standpoint..he's scoring fairly efficiently, he's drawing fouls, and he's taking good shots, for the most part..however, the problem is that his style of play is currently a poor fit for the starting unit, unfortunately..

He can't consistently penetrate past defenders anymore, and when he does, it has mostly been for scoring, rather than drawing a rotating defender to him..Duncan is the only other starter that he currently has any synergy with IMO..with Aldridge and Leonard(and even Tim) on the floor, you have 2 superior options for running an ISO/1 on 1/conventional offense, which renders Parker useless off the ball..

So it's not that Parker has played poorly, he really hasn't IMO..he's just the worst option out of the starting unit creators(excluding Green), and he's currently an awkward fit with the new direction of the team, unfortunately, unless he starts making 3s at a high clip..

[apalisoc_9]

The starters have always relied on defense and the bench guys were always their to make a run. Remember our two biggest threats are ISO players so it makes sense for the starters to play differently.

Imo, they've been like this for a couple of years but now it's even more apparent with Leonard rise and bringin in Aldridge

Pop said so himself in his last interview, The starters run different sets and have a different offensive structure than the Bench guys.

Kawhi, Green are both capable of playing within a ball moving offense..This is evident when they play with the bench and they do it a lot every game.

Aldridge can't fit with the ball moving spurs..He's a high usage player that relies on the post and that's not exactly how the ball moving spurs operate...

I think any lineup with Aldridge on it regardless if Manu and Boris are playing is going to be less ball movement..He just isn't that kind of guy..and that's knock on him, he just really hasn't played in that kind of system before.

I haven't seen much action from Parker with the bench to say if he can play the beautiful game with the bench or not.

[SAGirl]

The starters have always relied on defense and the bench guys were always their to make a run. Remember our two biggest threats are ISO players so it makes sense for the starters to play differently.

Imo, they've been like this for a couple of years but now it's even more apparent.

Pop said so himself in his last interview, The starters run different sets and have a different offensive structure than the Bench guys.

Kawhi, Green are both capable of playing within a ball moving offense..This is evident when they play with the bench and they do it a lot every game.

Aldridge can't fit with the ball moving spurs..He's a high usage player that relies on the post and that's not exactly how the ball moving spurs operate...

I think any lineup with Aldridge on it regardless if Manu and Boris are playing is going to be less ball movement..He just isn't that kind of guy..and that's knock on him, he just really hasn't played in that kind of system before.

I haven't seen much action from Parker with the bench to say if he can play the beautiful game with the bench or not.
Aldridge has seen some limited action with the Bench (because of the WEst/Diaw rim protection issues specially). He acts as a roll man, basically same as TD (just TD is less agile). His presence in the paint opens it up on the perimeter. They do post him up occasionally, particularly when they want to slow the tempo to close a quarter to limit the posessions so they an end with the last one or something. He is mostly there to crash the O boards, and roll, like a Tiago role. Its not the optimal use for him, but that is not to say they can't play with him. He can also get the same PnP shots that Manu sets up for West for example. He'll be fine.

[weeks]

How many 3s has lma taken? I expected more tbh

[apalisoc_9]

How many 3s has lma taken? I expected more tbh

Less than 5 probably. :lol

He's heavily reliant on post up to get his points..

[apalisoc_9]

Aldridge has seen some limited action with the Bench (because of the WEst/Diaw rim protection issues specially). He acts as a roll man, basically same as TD (just TD is less agile). His presence in the paint opens it up on the perimeter. They do post him up occasionally, particularly when they want to slow the tempo to close a quarter to limit the posessions so they an end with the last one or something. He is mostly there to crash the O boards, and roll, like a Tiago role. Its not the optimal use for him, but that is not to say they can't play with him. He can also get the same PnP shots that Manu sets up for West for example. He'll be fine.
I dont know the numbers but i havent seen aldridge roll even once..

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

As already mentioned the ball movement needed for the beautiful game wouldn't be the best strategy for the starting 5 considering the personnel.

I'd like to see Duncan more often closer to the ring, not playing the high post so much and perhaps more Kawhi/Aldridge PnRs. Currently these are the only two things I'd change for the starting 5.

[ceperez]

Our 2 biggest scoring threats are iso players. It reminds me of the Melo/Stoudemire situation in NY a few years back. Grinding out buckets down low every possession isn't a recipe for success unless you have deadly 3PT shooters to space the floor to punish double teams. We really only have DG right now and Kawhi can hit them but he's often the one in iso, which means he doesn't count as much as he should.

Ideally we need a second (ideally third) 3PT shooter on the floor that isn't Kawhi or Aldridge.

Playing more minutes for players like Mills, DG, Manu and Bobo to knockdown 3s is what we need to start the beautiful game. Manu and Bobo are the most common instigators of those sequences as because they're the best playmakers. Combos like Mills+Manu+TD or Mills+Bobo+Green around Kawhaldridge is the best way we'll see the beautiful game imo. I don't think you can do it without taking out at least 2 starters (assuming you're keeping your best 2 scorers on the floor at the same time).

Also not saying to play Manu more, he needs rest. But no reason not to have Mills out there more with the other 4 starters and mix Parker into second unit sometimes. He can still start but at some point you need to force other teams to make the decision between focussing on stoppingt Kawhi and Aldridge and make DG and Mills hit 3s, or force Aldridge and Kawhi to make plays 1on1. Either situation works for us I think, but you can't do it if you're running only 1 legitimate 3PT option in Green.

Unless Parker becomes a legit 3PT spotup threat we have to mix the lineups around better.

I got zero problem with Kawhi's offense just as long as it comes with the flow of the offense and is used to exploit mismatches.

The problem is with Aldridge offense since he usually doesn't have a mismatch and has the best rim defender on him. What I have yet to see and I am waiting for is to see a two man game with either Duncan or Leonard. What I see lately is that too many time Aldridge is caught unprepared when he gets the ball and he has to think what he's going to do next.

[ceperez]

How many 3s has lma taken? I expected more tbh

I don't think he's taken any this season!!

West has taken one, but it was with time running out.

They need to have LMA take 2-3 3 pointers a game to keep spacing.

[Brazil]

How many 3s has lma taken? I expected more tbh

That's imo part of the issue. LMA worked his 3s this offseason and idea was to see him taking more of those. Doing so that would solve a good part of spacing issue. For now he is not shooting those 3s and neither Spurs are running plays for him to do so. I think they are trying to get him going on what he's good at, mid range and post up, when he feel comfortable they will probably go for that 3 shooting

[Agloco]

Have the starters ever really played the "Beautiful Game", though?

IIRC, the starting unit has been more effective on defense than offense the past few years(excluding the last 2 months of 2015, where Kawhi went off)..

This. Haven't seen them do it yet.

[BillMc]

I don't think he's taken any this season!!

West has taken one, but it was with time running out.

They need to have LMA take 2-3 3 pointers a game to keep spacing.

He's shot two 3-pointers so far this season, one against OKC, one against Boston. No makes yet.

Not worried about it, though. He'll expand out his game once he's comfortable in the offense.

[JeffDuncan]

As far as Aldridge shooting 3's, I don't like having him that far from the rim. Offensive rebound chances go way down.

Through the first six games, Aldridge has 55 total rebounds, and 15 of those are offensive. That is quite good.

For comparison, Duncan has 53 total rebounds, through the first six games, and only 9 are on the offensive end.

For further comparison, Leonard has 50 rebounds, total, in this same time period, and 7 are offensive.

Somebody other than Aldridge should be shooting 3's, so he'll be in better position to work the offensive glass.

[Keepin' it real]

I shake my head at the fans wanting LMA to shoot 3s. We don't need Chris Bosh, and I hope LMA doesn't turn into him.

Keep shooting mid-range 2s and being a rebounding machine until the cows come home, LMA!

[Perry Mason]

Nice post, tbh..

Parker really hasn't been as bad as the perception here, so far, offensively, at least from a scoring standpoint..he's scoring fairly efficiently, he's drawing fouls, and he's taking good shots, for the most part..however, the problem is that his style of play is currently a poor fit for the starting unit, unfortunately..

He can't consistently penetrate past defenders anymore, and when he does, it has mostly been for scoring, rather than drawing a rotating defender to him..Duncan is the only other starter that he currently has any synergy with IMO..with Aldridge and Leonard(and even Tim) on the floor, you have 2 superior options for running an ISO/1 on 1/conventional offense, which renders Parker useless off the ball..

So it's not that Parker has played poorly, he really hasn't IMO..he's just the worst option out of the starting unit creators(excluding Green), and he's currently an awkward fit with the new direction of the team, unfortunately, unless he starts making 3s at a high clip..

Great, great post. I made a similar argument in the last game thread. The starting unit was built around TP's penetration opening up opportunities. Now he can only do that occasionally, and often it is sort of half-speed, half-ass movement.

I don't think the answer will be find the next Tony Parker (if you could, you might consider it). I think we should play the inside-out game with more guard movement, and get Kawhi and Aldridge to work on moves that let them spin and get closer to the basket. Combine it with cuts, big to big passing from the high, low and mid-posts, and stretch the floor with Danny (and hopefully TP).

There was a play where Mills and Aldridge passed the rock back and forth in and out of the post, and the rotations gave Mills the momentary opportunity to blow past his man for a scoop. Simple, and effective. Easily could have been TP in the starting lineup.

[313]

The bench has been better than the starters(offensively) since the start of Parker's decline in 2014. They heavily relied on the bench to dig them out of holes , even in the playoffs.

Pop has changed the offense before so I don't doubt that he'll figure out how to optimally use the pieces in the starting unit.

[spurs10]

Great, great post. I made a similar argument in the last game thread. The starting unit was built around TP's penetration opening up opportunities. Now he can only do that occasionally, and often it is sort of half-speed, half-ass movement.

I don't think the answer will be find the next Tony Parker (if you could, you might consider it). I think we should play the inside-out game with more guard movement, and get Kawhi and Aldridge to work on moves that let them spin and get closer to the basket. Combine it with cuts, big to big passing from the high, low and mid-posts, and stretch the floor with Danny (and hopefully TP).

There was a play where Mills and Aldridge passed the rock back and forth in and out of the post, and the rotations gave Mills the momentary opportunity to blow past his man for a scoop. Simple, and effective. Easily could have been TP in the starting lineup. Good stuff. Also, let's not forget Green. He was well scouted last game and covered well, but he is still a threat for the inside/out game. I think he has been more of a fifth option lately with people trying to acclimate LMA.

[ElNono]

I don't think they can as constructed, but that's ok. You don't have to be 'beautiful game' all the time. You can play a more traditional offense and still be effective. But for that roles have to change. I concur with Harlem and Perry about Tony's game needing a severe makeup because this isn't Tim and TP centered offense anymore (something I alluded to in my 'change SL thread')... It's gonna take time.

[Mikeanaro]

Only if they are beautiful.

[HarlemHeat37]

TD21 and I had this disagreement in the NBA forum in October IIRC..I said I didn't think the Spurs would win the division, because it's going to take months to make this work..

They still might, since the Rockets don't look great and the Spurs still have enough talent to win games strictly on that, but I stand by my original prediction..I think people really underestimated the impact of re-structuring the entire offense, which is essentially what the Spurs are doing with the starting unit..

Other teams added pieces(Clippers, Thunder getting Durant, Houston getting Lawson, etc), but none of those teams are changing their philosophy and style of play..the Spurs are attempting to integrate a high-usage player that is accustomed to shooting a lot(Aldridge), continuing Kawhi's evolution into a lead guy, and trying to find a fit for an aging Parker, a guy that has been running the offense for over 10 years..not to mention Danny Green has never played in a different offensive system since he has been in the NBA, it's an adjustment for him, as well..

There was an assumption that Aldridge was going to fit naturally and that the Spurs are always a well-oiled machine that never has glitches, but that's just another example of the media/non-Spurs fans putting too much emphasis and giving too much credit to the Spurs system, rather than the actual players on the court:lol..

Pop has already stated that he isn't really looking to make adjustments with Aldridge, or overall, yet, as he wants to see how LA naturally plays before anything, which is the correct strategy IMO..he's not going to make any changes in the starting unit, especially 2 weeks into the season..

There's also the potential secret brilliance of Pop in this regard, reverting to a conventional, post/ISO-centric offense may be intentional to counter the Warriors' style of play..as overrated as they are, the Grizzlies did give GS some problems in the playoffs, their downfall being that they are very limited in talent, and giving playing time to terrible players like Tony Allen and having no star power..

With the current pieces on the team, the Spurs can utilize Memphis' defensive/ISO style of play, while having shooters(Green, Mills) and much superior star power/scoring(Aldridge, Leonard), along with a bench that is levels better than anything Memphis had, last year..I don't believe the Spurs can beat the Warriors at their own game, this isn't 2013 or 2014, maybe going the conventional route makes more sense, although obviously adjusting to 2016's style of the NBA, rather than 2005..

[SAGirl]

---

[SAGirl]

I don't think he's taken any this season!!

West has taken one, but it was with time running out.

They need to have LMA take 2-3 3 pointers a game to keep spacing.


How many 3s has lma taken? I expected more tbh


As far as Aldridge shooting 3's, I don't like having him that far from the rim. Offensive rebound chances go way down.

Through the first six games, Aldridge has 55 total rebounds, and 15 of those are offensive. That is quite good.

For comparison, Duncan has 53 total rebounds, through the first six games, and only 9 are on the offensive end.

For further comparison, Leonard has 50 rebounds, total, in this same time period, and 7 are offensive.

Somebody other than Aldridge should be shooting 3's, so he'll be in better position to work the offensive glass.

This too, he has been incredibly good on second chance points, and it seems to be by design.

[kaji157]

Obviously Tony has to adjust to a new role to take time.

But in the meantime he has to find a way to be less permeable on defense.

I would like someone to pull off a points/scored allowed by a player and his opposing player to see how ton´s doing. But so far it seems that it is becoming more and more normal for opposing teams to just iso Parker with whoever he is guarding.

Offensively i think the starting five are doing quite fine. But defensively is where they are lacking.

The offense should be better but individual defense is another thing.

[HarlemHeat37]

Obviously Tony has to adjust to a new role to take time.

But in the meantime he has to find a way to be less permeable on defense.

I would like someone to pull off a points/scored allowed by a player and his opposing player to see how ton´s doing. But so far it seems that it is becoming more and more normal for opposing teams to just iso Parker with whoever he is guarding.

Offensively i think the starting five are doing quite fine. But defensively is where they are lacking.

The offense should be better but individual defense is another thing.

They are currently the 2nd ranked defense in the NBA..

[dabom]

I think he means we could be an even greater defensive team if parker wasn't so shitty.

[dabom]

Let me just remind how defense was before kawhi joined the Spurs.

[DMC]

1st: It's monumentally difficult to put together a 5 man team that can move the basketball, defend and score as well as the Spurs 1st unit.
2nd: It's exponentially harder build one to do it as well as the 2nd unit, I've only seen a couple in my lifetime.
3rd: It's otherworldly to get that better unit to come off the bench.

Addressing 1: Tony cannot become a cog in the machine. He's been forever focused on pushing the offense, not moving the ball. He's a mediocre level passer in an elite shadow ops level passing game. He has, for whatever reason (PATFO or other) chosen the gradient of decline over evolution of his game play. Tim, on the other hand, all but stopped taking that bank shot from the side, doesn't free stroke the long jumper from the top of the key, and doesn't barrel in for offensive boards. Tim has also been a bit flakey on offense this season so far, like it's too easy for him and he's taking unnecessary risks with the ball. Still, Tim's game evolved but it took a few years for that to transpire. Tony might never get there, being in group lock step mentally with Tim and Manu where age is concerned, though he's younger. Ironically Tim and Manu, especially the latter, have found the fountain of youth this season and it's amazing to watch. Tony is still struggling though. Kawhi, Danny and LMA are the ball movement guys right now. Kawhi has the perpetual green light it seems and seems willing to take it, but that's a good thing. Pop will tell him when to chill. I don't know so much about Danny taking those transition 3's with no one else back, that's between him and Pop but it seems Pop has given guys that discretion in the past as long as they don't get stupid about it.

Addressing 2: When Boris is at the 4, the game becomes fast and smooth. He can "see". Tony can't see, has conical vision out there I think. Boris and Manu see the entire floor all the time and often seem to be a couple plays ahead of the action, mentally. Put Patty out there with his great court vision as well as his shooting stroke and quickness and the beautiful game begins to emerge. David West is the beneficiary of having probably the best PnR guy in the league in Manu Ginobili feeding him the ball, but West can finish at the rim and can also make that short or even longer jump shot, unlike Blair who was relegated to rim play only (and still flourished when he was on the floor with Manu). Patty, Manu and Boris are basically the heart of the "beautiful game" in San Antonio. Those are three high IQ players. I don't think a low IQ guy could move the ball like that and find the open shooter at the same time. No other team in the league has anything close to that. The Spurs bench could make the playoffs on their own, I'm certain of it.

Addressing 3: What kind of black magic has Pop used to get these guys to feel so good about coming off the bench? They are like the special forces of the Spurs offense, just sharpening their knives and cleaning their firearms until they get that call up. They go from zero to 100mph like right now... no lull. The 1st unit needs to get some of that going, but for some reason Pop has them walking the ball up the floor and Tony over-dribbling the ball, penetrating and needing endless lessons on not being that guy any more, as the opponent breaks the other direction and scores on Tony's turnovers.

Go to the Hornets' website, watch their post game videos. They never hold their heads up, they compliment the Spurs constantly. It must be difficult to act like you really give a shit every time you lose, year after year, when you are on a shitty team. You can find similar videos on at least half the NBA team websites, because they are so accustomed to losing. Be grateful all you have to worry about is getting over that hump in the playoffs, every year, for 16 or so years running.

[TD 21]

Kawhi's offense worries me. As pretty as his turnaround jumpers off the post are, I don't think you can run a wing post up offense in today's league and expect to win the post-season. I'm hoping Leonard turns into a better penetrator. He may not have the hops to be an elite finisher, but he has the length and strength.

Same. His inability to get to the line/play make was fine when he was an ancillary piece offensively, but it's not as the focal point. I realize that neither is ever going to be his forte, but he can't be as inept as he currently is in those two areas.



TD21 and I had this disagreement in the NBA forum in October IIRC..I said I didn't think the Spurs would win the division, because it's going to take months to make this work..


There's also the potential secret brilliance of Pop in this regard, reverting to a conventional, post/ISO-centric offense may be intentional to counter the Warriors' style of play..as overrated as they are, the Grizzlies did give GS some problems in the playoffs, their downfall being that they are very limited in talent, and giving playing time to terrible players like Tony Allen and having no star power..

With the current pieces on the team, the Spurs can utilize Memphis' defensive/ISO style of play, while having shooters(Green, Mills) and much superior star power/scoring(Aldridge, Leonard), along with a bench that is levels better than anything Memphis had, last year..I don't believe the Spurs can beat the Warriors at their own game, this isn't 2013 or 2014, maybe going the conventional route makes more sense, although obviously adjusting to 2016's style of the NBA, rather than 2005..

It wasn't the Spurs not winning the division that I took issue with, it was claiming the Rockets had (paraphrasing) little to no competition. Extended adjustment period or not, that never made sense.


Heavy reliance on post up/iso ball probably is required to beat the Warriors in a series, but this isn't '12-'14, when only the Thunder and Heat were capable of beating this team in a series. In addition to the Warriors and Thunder, the Clippers, Rockets and Cavaliers are capable too, which means everything can't be geared towards what would work best against the Warriors.

[KaiRMD1]

Tiago played a big part in that "Beautiful Game" video as well. For a big, he was an excellent passer, almost up there with Diaw but not quite. I've never seen a big man do a no look pass like Tiago would

[Johnny RIngo]

Tiago played a big part in that "Beautiful Game" video as well. For a big, he was an excellent passer, almost up there with Diaw but not quite. I've never seen a big man do a no look pass like Tiago would

If Parker was paid what he was actually worth($2-$3 million), we could have kept Tiago. Tony's bloated salary killed our depth.

[midnightpulp]

TD21 and I had this disagreement in the NBA forum in October IIRC..I said I didn't think the Spurs would win the division, because it's going to take months to make this work..

They still might, since the Rockets don't look great and the Spurs still have enough talent to win games strictly on that, but I stand by my original prediction..I think people really underestimated the impact of re-structuring the entire offense, which is essentially what the Spurs are doing with the starting unit..

Other teams added pieces(Clippers, Thunder getting Durant, Houston getting Lawson, etc), but none of those teams are changing their philosophy and style of play..the Spurs are attempting to integrate a high-usage player that is accustomed to shooting a lot(Aldridge), continuing Kawhi's evolution into a lead guy, and trying to find a fit for an aging Parker, a guy that has been running the offense for over 10 years..not to mention Danny Green has never played in a different offensive system since he has been in the NBA, it's an adjustment for him, as well..

There was an assumption that Aldridge was going to fit naturally and that the Spurs are always a well-oiled machine that never has glitches, but that's just another example of the media/non-Spurs fans putting too much emphasis and giving too much credit to the Spurs system, rather than the actual players on the court:lol..

Pop has already stated that he isn't really looking to make adjustments with Aldridge, or overall, yet, as he wants to see how LA naturally plays before anything, which is the correct strategy IMO..he's not going to make any changes in the starting unit, especially 2 weeks into the season..

There's also the potential secret brilliance of Pop in this regard, reverting to a conventional, post/ISO-centric offense may be intentional to counter the Warriors' style of play..as overrated as they are, the Grizzlies did give GS some problems in the playoffs, their downfall being that they are very limited in talent, and giving playing time to terrible players like Tony Allen and having no star power..

With the current pieces on the team, the Spurs can utilize Memphis' defensive/ISO style of play, while having shooters(Green, Mills) and much superior star power/scoring(Aldridge, Leonard), along with a bench that is levels better than anything Memphis had, last year..I don't believe the Spurs can beat the Warriors at their own game, this isn't 2013 or 2014, maybe going the conventional route makes more sense, although obviously adjusting to 2016's style of the NBA, rather than 2005..

Yeah, we can beat GS in a half court game. They really have no post presence or elite penetrators. Curry is pretty good at getting into the lane from defenders playing him extra close, but he only takes about 15% of his shots from 0-3 feet over his career, compare that to Westbrook who takes 35% of his shots from that distance.

[Yuixafun]

Seeing this game made me so happy.

It had the feeling of the first game of the season, whereas everyone was a having a good game relative to themsleves.

People made an appearance, and then they made play.

But tonight man, was special.

The beautiful game began to emerge when Manu Ginobili made back to back assists to LMA... A sorta alleyoop, but the next a gorgeous interior feed for an easy basket.

It's like everyone perked up.

KL who was already off to a great start, nails a 3.

Parker takes advantages of mismatches and scores off some penetration.

Diaw is quick with the ball, bein aggressive.

David West stays sharp but is fired up.

Anderson with what should be 2 blocks and a steal, with some tenascious defense.

Mills goes from making a few smart plays to igniting.

Rasual Butler is the savy vet with new legs.


Even Bobans dunk in the waning minutes was a moment in this game.

So many TEAM highlights.

5 games later and not only are they playing well as who they are, but now they are feeding off each other making everyone sharing being in the zone.


Imagine how they will be with more xp together, with more synergy.

They made the Kings quit tonight.

All this to go along with another all star game from KL and LMA playing physical enthusiastic defense while finding his finesse on his shot.


A+++++++ game

[Bender]

did Aldridge shoot more 3s in his Portland years?

[jag]

Beautiful Game was always with Manu Patty Bobo imho. Starters are too iso-centric, given with the talent though and the lack of time to adjust, it's a given.

Patty, Manu, Beli, Diaw, Baynes/Splitter/Duncan. The first couple of subs off the bench would set the tone with ball movement, and then it would continue throughout the game as players rotated in and out.

[jag]

Our 2 biggest scoring threats are iso players. It reminds me of the Melo/Stoudemire situation in NY a few years back. Grinding out buckets down low every possession isn't a recipe for success unless you have deadly 3PT shooters to space the floor to punish double teams. We really only have DG right now and Kawhi can hit them but he's often the one in iso, which means he doesn't count as much as he should.

Many posters here downplayed his significance (because of his putrid defense) but Beli was a huge part of what the Spurs did during the regular season. The rotation tightens up in the postseason, and Green and Patty took turns getting hot in '13 and '14, so marco's importance was diminished. But you miss a guy like that during the first 82 games. His play-making and passing were very underrated.

[100%duncan]

Patty, Manu, Beli, Diaw, Baynes/Splitter/Duncan. The first couple of subs off the bench would set the tone with ball movement, and then it would continue throughout the game as players rotated in and out.

Yeah but the core was always those 3. And TD of course, still a top 3 playmaker of the team at his age 1. Manu 2. Bobo 3. Timmy imho.

[kaji157]

I think in yesterday´s game it was pretty obvious that having Duncan and Aldridge share court is not great for our offense.

Ball kept moving a lot with other combinations, like Aldridge/West (and Boris) and the starters and Duncan/West with the Subs. Also Aldridge/Boris did very well with the subs.

Playing Patty a lot with the starting five also seemed to help a lot when the team broke things open. We started the 4th 72-69 and after 9 minutes we were 100-80, that´s a 28-11 run right there. During that time the players on court were:

Mills - Ginobili - Leonard - West - Diaw from 72-69 to 86-78 (14-9 run)

Then Manu and West were replaced for Green and Aldridge. 86-78 to 96-80 (10-2 run)

West replaced Bobo for the last four minutes, and shared 1.10 minutes with the same core Mills - Green - Leonard and Aldridge. (4-0 in those possesions)

Then the scrubs got in.

Tim and Tony didn´t play in the fourth.

[Neurosis]

I think in yesterday´s game it was pretty obvious that having Duncan and Aldridge share court is not great for our offense.

Ball kept moving a lot with other combinations, like Aldridge/West (and Boris) and the starters and Duncan/West with the Subs. Also Aldridge/Boris did very well with the subs.

Playing Patty a lot with the starting five also seemed to help a lot when the team broke things open. We started the 4th 72-69 and after 9 minutes we were 100-80, that´s a 28-11 run right there. During that time the players on court were:

Mills - Ginobili - Leonard - West - Diaw from 72-69 to 86-78 (14-9 run)

Then Manu and West were replaced for Green and Aldridge. 86-78 to 96-80 (10-2 run)

West replaced Bobo for the last four minutes, and shared 1.10 minutes with the same core Mills - Green - Leonard and Aldridge. (4-0 in those possesions)

Then the scrubs got in.

Tim and Tony didn´t play in the fourth.

Nice post.

I actually have no problem with relegating Tim and Tony to a 15 minutes/game role, where they don't take court alongside Aldridge and Kawhi as much. TP is pushing 40 and still solid, the more longevity we can give him the better. Tony has declined and doesn't fit on the floor when we have Kawhaldrige and like you said TD isn't quite as smooth in this offence.

That said I think TD can play alongside Aldridge so long as there's still 3PT shooters on the floor. If you swap Mills with Parker in the SL, starters do fine for offense and probably have better D.

Both Tim and Tony were stars, but they're 3rd-4th options at best now and I'd rather see a Mills 3pter in the offence than a TD post-up or Tony PnR at this stage of their careers. We just can't run that against elite defensive teams. We have all the pieces to ring again if we play our personnel to their strengths.

[wildbill2u]

The beautiful game required motion. LMA and Duncan don't have that as part of their skill set. Kawhi seems to be taking the advice he's been given to be more aggressive with the ball so he's doing ISOs. Green doesn't move well without the ball and his skill on 3s is from a set position, not on the move a la Bellinelli or Patty. I still think Parker can do some driving, but with nobody else on the starters moving, the beautiful game is probably a beautiful memory.

At least until the second unit comes in.

[Solid D]

Almost any top 10 rotation players combined with Manu, Bobo and Patty running the Boston Weave is going to offensively master their opposition...particularly in the last 12-16 minutes of games.

[DarrinS]

Almost any top 10 rotation players combined with Manu, Bobo and Patty running the Boston Weave is going to offensively master their opposition...particularly in the last 12-16 minutes of games.

Yep, those 3 in particular.

[wildbill2u]

Many posters here downplayed his significance (because of his putrid defense) but Beli was a huge part of what the Spurs did during the regular season. The rotation tightens up in the postseason, and Green and Patty took turns getting hot in '13 and '14, so marco's importance was diminished. But you miss a guy like that during the first 82 games. His play-making and passing were very underrated.

Good point. I was reminded watching the game of how much motion Bellinelli gave to the offense. Never stops moving around the perimeter then back through the lane and out the other side---very much like Reggie Miller. It gives the defense fits and often creates either a mismatch or a mistake in switching on the part of the defense.. And of course, Belli could come off the curl and hit the 3.

[gambit1990]

All the more reason to start MVPatty tbh.