Sean and Tim post-game comments

[GSH]

For those who don't have a local feed:

In the post game wrap-up, Sean went into a rant about +/- being a totally worthless stat. He started out saying how it annoyed him this game, and last game too. "I know the NBA is trying to get people more involved, and so they're throwing the +/- on the stat sheet. That is a garbage stat. (Laughs from Monaco) No, I'm not kidding... +/- is a garbage stat. It lies to you, um, all the time. Kawhi Leonard tonight, +7? Other guys are +22, +20. Are you kidding me? Without Kawhi Leonard we don't win this game. You're gonna tell me that Kawhi Leonard's presence out there was only worth +7 points? With the type of performance he had? That stat... get that off the stat sheet. It doesn't even belong there. It's garbage."

All of you who keep trying to lean on +/- like it's a meaningful stat, take note. Please. And just stop doing it.

Later in the post game interview, someone asked Tim about Danny Green "sucking". (Obvious reference to an earlier joking comment by Tim.) Tim figured out what he was talking about and just grinned. "Yeah, uh, Danny's gonna do what Danny's gonna do. He's, uh, he's a confident kid and he does a lot for us. Obviously shooting the 3-ball is one of them, and people know that now. So they're making him do some different things. And he's gonna have to learn how to be effective when people just start playing beside him basically, and making him go to the basket. So, another learning process for him. And, ummm, he's not here so I can't talk junk about him. (Laughter) But he was, he was great tonight."

Those who think Tim was serious before about Danny "sucking", or that he is really worried or upset with how Danny has been playing - Tim made it really clear that he was kidding. The only reason he said it before was because Danny was right there listening.

His comment about Danny was that opposing defenses are paying more attention to him on the 3P line now, and forcing him to drive the ball or make the right pass. Obviously Danny needs work, but maybe that's what the Spurs are trying to give him. Whatever - it was clear that Tim is a lot less worried about Danny than a bunch of people here are.

[apalisoc_9]

Thanks, GSH. Without you making this thread no way we would have been able to tell that TD was joking. Thanks for clearing that up. For a moment there i thought he was a team cancer.

[SpurPadre]

Bonner's inexplicably many defenders love to point out how he's the +/- king, too. LOL.

[GSH]

Thanks, GSH. Without you making this thread no way we would have been able to tell that TD was joking. Thanks for clearing that up. For a moment there i thought he was a team cancer.

Go back and read the discussion on the original thread.

And you're welcome.

[ElNono]

thanks!

[sasaint]

It is really ironic that Danny has been putting the ball on the floor so much this year and Kawhi is leading the team in 3pt %. I think Danny's handle is improving, but it needs to improve, and so does his judgment. He dribbled into trouble a couple of times tonight. Mostly I think Danny has become hesitant on his three. I hope he gets back to just letting it fly; then it will start falling at a higher clip.

[ducks]

Thanks was stuck with local az feed
Lots of praise though from az announcers
Said Spurs are championship contenders

[Darius McCrary]

Anyone who thought Tim was serious with that comment should get full blown AIDS

[apalisoc_9]

Anyone who thought Tim was serious with that comment should get full blown AIDS

Op, hearing charlie sheen likes to blow men. You should tale this guy suggestion and contact sheen.

[TDfan2007]

For those who don't have a local feed:

In the post game wrap-up, Sean went into a rant about +/- being a totally worthless stat. He started out saying how it annoyed him this game, and last game too. "I know the NBA is trying to get people more involved, and so they're throwing the +/- on the stat sheet. That is a garbage stat. (Laughs from Monaco) No, I'm not kidding... +/- is a garbage stat. It lies to you, um, all the time. Kawhi Leonard tonight, +7? Other guys are +22, +20. Are you kidding me? Without Kawhi Leonard we don't win this game. You're gonna tell me that Kawhi Leonard's presence out there was only worth +7 points? With the type of performance he had? That stat... get that off the stat sheet. It doesn't even belong there. It's garbage."

All of you who keep trying to lean on +/- like it's a meaningful stat, take note. Please. And just stop doing it.

Later in the post game interview, someone asked Tim about Danny Green "sucking". (Obvious reference to an earlier joking comment by Tim.) Tim figured out what he was talking about and just grinned. "Yeah, uh, Danny's gonna do what Danny's gonna do. He's, uh, he's a confident kid and he does a lot for us. Obviously shooting the 3-ball is one of them, and people know that now. So they're making him do some different things. And he's gonna have to learn how to be effective when people just start playing beside him basically, and making him go to the basket. So, another learning process for him. And, ummm, he's not here so I can't talk junk about him. (Laughter) But he was, he was great tonight."

Those who think Tim was serious before about Danny "sucking", or that he is really worried or upset with how Danny has been playing - Tim made it really clear that he was kidding. The only reason he said it before was because Danny was right there listening.

His comment about Danny was that opposing defenses are paying more attention to him on the 3P line now, and forcing him to drive the ball or make the right pass. Obviously Danny needs work, but maybe that's what the Spurs are trying to give him. Whatever - it was clear that Tim is a lot less worried about Danny than a bunch of people here are.

That was one of the most animated (relatively speaking) post-game interviews I've ever seen from him.

Also, :lol at anyone who thought Timmy was seriously calling Danny out. They must be new-age Spurs fans...at least, I hope they are.

[KaiRMD1]

Anyone who thought Tim was serious with that comment should get full blown AIDS

Charlie Sheen sorta thought Tim was serious

[TDfan2007]

Charlie Sheen sorta thought Tim was serious

:lol Apo beat you to it, old sport...

[SAGirl]

Thanks for sharing GSH and sasaint!

Glad Danny found his stroke. KAwhi and TOny kept finding him and this time he was more aggressive with his shot. He had been hesitating too much. I think the Danny dribble is an experiment by Pop and Danny like I pointed in another thread. It's good to have counters, but Danny though makes the mistake of trying to do too much too often. He did get the ball in a kind of bailout situation one time, but his TO have really been boneheaded plays. I am sure Pop gets on him hard though, so hopefully he will simplify what he's doing in his drives or Pop will limit them eventually. It is early in the season though and Pop is giving him opportunities and also coaching him hard.

[tmtcsc]

Anyone who thought Tim was serious with that comment should get full blown AIDS

http://49.media.tumblr.com/4d74b44f1584ea517c36ed076dcf00cf/tumblr_nxyn8i9aH11qarjjvo1_500.gif

[Uriel]

Thanks, GSH. Without you making this thread no way we would have been able to tell that TD was joking. Thanks for clearing that up. For a moment there i thought he was a team cancer.
:lmao

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I started the thread about Tim's comments on Danny sucking but I assumed it was VERY obvious that Tim was kidding. I knew the title would be clickbait though

[Raven]

once again, +- is not a meaningless stat, it's just the people that misunderstand it's meaning.

[Sean Cagney]

Bonner's inexplicably many defenders love to point out how he's the +/- king, too. LOL.

Yep, the most worthless bs stat to use imho. Bonner is proof.

[Mal]

Bonner disapproves

[GSH]

I started the thread about Tim's comments on Danny sucking but I assumed it was VERY obvious that Tim was kidding. I knew the title would be clickbait though


I thought so, too. But it started a whole discussion about how bad Danny is supposedly playing. And there have been a bunch more lately. I just thought it would be good to hear Tim's perspective on all that. Particularly him talking about how the opposing defenses are forcing Danny to do different things. That keeps getting left out of the discussions. The point was - seems like people here are worried about Danny's play. From his comments, Tim isn't worried at all.

BTW - you would think that nobody could take the +/- stat seriously, either. But they do it here constantly.


once again, +- is not a meaningless stat, it's just the people that misunderstand it's meaning.

I rest my case.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

For those who don't have a local feed:
His comment about Danny was that opposing defenses are paying more attention to him on the 3P line now, and forcing him to drive the ball or make the right pass. Obviously Danny needs work, but maybe that's what the Spurs are trying to give him. Whatever - it was clear that Tim is a lot less worried about Danny than a bunch of people here are.


I already said this about two weeks ago. It's the Spurs in general. Teams are forcing the Spurs off the 3 pt line. Guys like Manu and Mills aren't hurt so bad because they can hit the pull up midrange jumper. That is something Green needs to work on. When Beli was here, he could do the same.

[Chinook]

:rolleyes People who think Bonner somehow disproves plus-minus are clueless. The fact that Bonner carries an elite score in that stat despite being at best a mediocre player underscores how powerful his position is. Bonner headlined an entire movement as a stretch-four. He was one of the first guys to show that having a shooting big could work, and furthermore that it can run a twin-towers lineup off the court. He's the reason why Memphis is a dinosaur, who finally seems to have started the change with Green starting the last game.

Plus-minus doesn't suggest that Bonner is a great player. It does suggest that he's a match-up problem.

[100%duncan]

:rolleyes People who think Bonner somehow disproves plus-minus are clueless. The fact that Bonner carries an elite score in that stat besides being at best a mediocre player underscores how powerful his position is. Bonner headlined an entire movement as a stretch-four. He was one of the first guys to show that having a shooting big could work, and furthermore that it can run a twin-towers lineup off the court.

Plus-minus doesn't suggest that Bonner is a great player. It does suggest that he's a match-up problem.

A match-up problem for his own team

[Embedded]

Chinook, excellent point.

[scramby eggs]

:)

[midnightpulp]

Sean is right. Single game, box score +/- is useless.

The +/- metric we "lean" on here is RAPM.

[Chinook]

Sean is right. Single game, box score +/- is useless.

The +/- metric we "lean" on here is RAPM.

Any single game stat is "useless" by itself. Getting a whole bunch of steals in a game doesn't mean a player played good defense. Does that make steals a poor stat? Depends on what you're trying to do with it.

[dabom]

Plus/minus is a dumbass stat.

[dabom]

If matt Bonner was a match up problem he would play every game. He should never have playing time on the Spurs.

[ChumpDumper]

Thanks, GSH. Without you making this thread no way we would have been able to tell that TD was joking. Thanks for clearing that up. For a moment there i thought he was a team cancer.Is this a serious post?

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Is this a serious post?

You of all people should know sarcasm when he sees it.

[Gagnrath]

First of all everyone let's remember Coach B is like 200 in NBA role player years. He is really just transitioning into his new Scout team and D league assistant head Coach role. He's fairly handy to have around at practices as well. The first few years he was with the spurs while he wasn't a great defender he wasn't horrible. Then while he was king of +/- a few years ago he was actually an above average post defender and at times even provided timely help D. He did get posterized a lot but that was in part because he played lots of ball denial and positional D and always had below average lateral quickness. He was also for a few years basically the first big off the bench when he talent level was not at third big à

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I thought so, too. But it started a whole discussion about how bad Danny is supposedly playing. And there have been a bunch more lately. I just thought it would be good to hear Tim's perspective on all that. Particularly him talking about how the opposing defenses are forcing Danny to do different things. That keeps getting left out of the discussions. The point was - seems like people here are worried about Danny's play. From his comments, Tim isn't worried at all.

BTW - you would think that nobody could take the +/- stat seriously, either. But they do it here constantly.



I rest my case.

:tu agreed my man

[SupremeGuy]

Thanks, GSH. Without you making this thread no way we would have been able to tell that TD was joking. Thanks for clearing that up. For a moment there i thought he was a team cancer.:lmao

[Kikoluna]

Anyone who thought Tim was serious with that comment should get full blown AIDS
That's a peculiar sense of humor.

[Killakobe81]

Plus/minus is only useful for line-up groupings over time. By itself or as a single game stat it is crap. So I get what Sean was trying to say he just worded it poorly.

[Chinook]

Sample size cures almost everything. I agree that plus-minus is more useful faster for lineups than individuals (increasing degrees of freedom decreases the t-value necessary to be significant), but once individual sample sizes reach their threshold, their more informative.

Bonner carried an elite plus-minus despite playing in many different lineups and over many years of service. So to assert that he's simply a product of his lineups is borderline irresponsible, and probably relatively easy to disprove. I wouldn't know for sure, though. Does anyone have his player-pair data?

[dabom]

Tell me why doesn't matt bonner get more playing time if he is a match up problem?

[Chinook]

Tell me why doesn't matt bonner get more playing time if he is a match up problem?

Because he's old and doesn't have a unique skill-set anymore? The Spurs are inundated with shooting bigs.

[dabom]

Because he's old and doesn't have a unique skill-set anymore? The Spurs are inundated with shooting bigs.

But those bigs probably don't match up with matty in plus/minus.

O ya. Because Pop doesn't use them as human victory cigars vs the end of the player bench that don't get any burn or spot minutes with the second unit(maybe). Always fresh and never tired in short minutes.

[Chinook]

But those bigs probably don't match up with matty in plus/minus.

O ya. Because Pop doesn't use them as human victory cigars vs the end of the player bench that don't get any burn or spot minutes with the second unit(maybe). Always fresh and never tired in short minutes.

Yeah, because Bonner's been in that fifth-big role his entire career...

[dabom]

Yeah, because Bonner's been in that fifth-big role his entire career...

I'm looking at his metrics and playing time correlation with winning in the playoffs. Dude is an impostor.

[Chinook]

I'm looking at his metrics and playing time correlation with winning in the playoffs. Dude is an impostor.

If you mean in the playoffs, that's a different story. Bonner's not really clutch, so when teams decide to make him beat them, he can rarely do it. He was great against OKC, though. One of the biggest reasons the Spurs took Game Five. But anyway, obviously a shooter who is cold isn't really going to help, especially when teams start gameplanning for you to go cold. The Heat tried the same thing with Green, and Danny went nuclear for five games. That's why Danny is making seven figures is considered underpaid and Bonner at $4 Million in 2011 was overpaid.

[FkLA]

Hasn't +/- over the course of a season been fairly accurate over the years? For example, guys like Timmy/Manu/Kawhi are always near the top and known cancers like Enrique near the bottom?

Bonner was really the only anomaly but I agree with Chinook that the effect of his ability to space the floor has always been underrated.

[dabom]

If you mean in the playoffs, that's a different story. Bonner's not really clutch, so when teams decide to make him beat them, he can rarely do it. He was great against OKC, though. One of the biggest reasons the Spurs took Game Five. But anyway, obviously a shooter who is cold isn't really going to help, especially when teams start gameplanning for you to go cold. The Heat tried the same thing with Green, and Danny went nuclear for five games. That's why Danny is making seven figures is considered underpaid and Bonner at $4 Million in 2011 was overpaid.

The biggest reason was Kawhi putting the clamps on Westbrook.




Basic Box Score Stats


Starters
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
+/-


Kawhi Leonard (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html)
32:37
4
7
.571
1
2
.500
5
5
1.000
1
6
7
2
2
0
1
3
14
+22


Tim Duncan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html)
29:50
8
13
.615
0
0

6
7
.857
2
10
12
2
0
1
2
2
22
+18


Tony Parker (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01.html)
29:35
6
13
.462
0
1
.000
0
0

1
3
4
4
1
0
2
1
12
+15


Danny Green (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenda02.html)
22:23
4
9
.444
4
8
.500
2
2
1.000
1
3
4
1
1
1
1
2
14
+14


Matt Bonner (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bonnema01.html)
17:26
0
4
.000
0
2
.000
0
0

0
0
0
0
0
0
0
2
0
+6


Reserves
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
+/-


Boris Diaw (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/diawbo01.html)
28:10
4
7
.571
2
2
1.000
3
4
.750
3
3
6
3
1
1
2
0
13
+19


Manu Ginobili (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html)
21:10
7
9
.778
3
4
.750
2
2
1.000
0
4
4
6
0
0
0
2
19
+15


Patrick Mills (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millspa02.html)
15:52
3
5
.600
3
5
.600
0
0

1
1
2
0
0
0
0
2
9
+14


Marco Belinelli (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/belinma01.html)
13:45
1
5
.200
0
2
.000
0
0

0
0
0
1
0
0
1
1
2
+8


Tiago Splitter (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/splitti01.html)
11:45
0
0

0
0

6
8
.750
0
2
2
1
0
0
0
3
6
+16


Cory Joseph (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/josepco01.html)
7:29
1
2
.500
0
0

2
2
1.000
0
2
2
3
1
0
1
0
4
-5


Jeff Ayres (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pendeje02.html)
6:21
1
2
.500
0
0

0
0

0
2
2
0
0
0
0
0
2
-3


Aron Baynes (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/baynear01.html)
3:37
0
0

0
0

0
0

1
2
3
0
0
0
2
1
0
+1



I'd say playing at home was the second biggest. The big 3 having good games especially Manu.

I'd probably put Matt in the same league as the other role players tbh.

[Chinook]

The biggest reason was Kawhi putting the clamps on Westbrook.




Basic Box Score Stats


Starters
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
+/-


Kawhi Leonard (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html)
32:37
4
7
.571
1
2
.500
5
5
1.000
1
6
7
2
2
0
1
3
14
+22


Tim Duncan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html)
29:50
8
13
.615
0
0

6
7
.857
2
10
12
2
0
1
2
2
22
+18


Tony Parker (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01.html)
29:35
6
13
.462
0
1
.000
0
0

1
3
4
4
1
0
2
1
12
+15


Danny Green (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenda02.html)
22:23
4
9
.444
4
8
.500
2
2
1.000
1
3
4
1
1
1
1
2
14
+14


Matt Bonner (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bonnema01.html)
17:26
0
4
.000
0
2
.000
0
0

0
0
0
0
0
0
0
2
0
+6


Reserves
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
+/-


Boris Diaw (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/diawbo01.html)
28:10
4
7
.571
2
2
1.000
3
4
.750
3
3
6
3
1
1
2
0
13
+19


Manu Ginobili (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html)
21:10
7
9
.778
3
4
.750
2
2
1.000
0
4
4
6
0
0
0
2
19
+15


Patrick Mills (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millspa02.html)
15:52
3
5
.600
3
5
.600
0
0

1
1
2
0
0
0
0
2
9
+14


Marco Belinelli (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/belinma01.html)
13:45
1
5
.200
0
2
.000
0
0

0
0
0
1
0
0
1
1
2
+8


Tiago Splitter (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/splitti01.html)
11:45
0
0

0
0

6
8
.750
0
2
2
1
0
0
0
3
6
+16


Cory Joseph (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/josepco01.html)
7:29
1
2
.500
0
0

2
2
1.000
0
2
2
3
1
0
1
0
4
-5


Jeff Ayres (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pendeje02.html)
6:21
1
2
.500
0
0

0
0

0
2
2
0
0
0
0
0
2
-3


Aron Baynes (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/baynear01.html)
3:37
0
0

0
0

0
0

1
2
3
0
0
0
2
1
0
+1



I'd say playing at home was the second biggest. The big 3 having good games especially Manu.

I'd probably put Matt in the same league as the other role players tbh.

That's because you don't actually remember that game, as we have discussed. Matt was unreal defensively in that game. He completely shut down Ibaka and even KD on switches. Dude had the game on his life on that end. And Brooks seemed to think the Thunder's best strategy to attack the Spurs would be to let Westbrook take Kawhi, KD Green and Ibaka Bonner in iso plays. It failed really badly.

[SAGirl]

:rolleyes People who think Bonner somehow disproves plus-minus are clueless. The fact that Bonner carries an elite score in that stat despite being at best a mediocre player underscores how powerful his position is. Bonner headlined an entire movement as a stretch-four. He was one of the first guys to show that having a shooting big could work, and furthermore that it can run a twin-towers lineup off the court. He's the reason why Memphis is a dinosaur, who finally seems to have started the change with Green starting the last game.

Plus-minus doesn't suggest that Bonner is a great player. It does suggest that he's a match-up problem.
You are very right on this (what it means for Bonner).

People just take +/- out of context game to game for their own agenda and that is what is worth criticizing. It is not illustrative of how well someone played in a particular game. Sometimes one player in a bad Pop lineup was the only thing preventing a full collapse, but he just happened to play when the other team made a run, or someone with a bad game went on a scrubby streak. It's just too easy and lazy to infer more from it in a single game than what the stat is reflecting.

[Chinook]

The biggest reason was Kawhi putting the clamps on Westbrook.




Basic Box Score Stats


Starters
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
+/-


Kawhi Leonard (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/leonaka01.html)
32:37
4
7
.571
1
2
.500
5
5
1.000
1
6
7
2
2
0
1
3
14
+22


Tim Duncan (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html)
29:50
8
13
.615
0
0

6
7
.857
2
10
12
2
0
1
2
2
22
+18


Tony Parker (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parketo01.html)
29:35
6
13
.462
0
1
.000
0
0

1
3
4
4
1
0
2
1
12
+15


Danny Green (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenda02.html)
22:23
4
9
.444
4
8
.500
2
2
1.000
1
3
4
1
1
1
1
2
14
+14


Matt Bonner (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bonnema01.html)
17:26
0
4
.000
0
2
.000
0
0

0
0
0
0
0
0
0
2
0
+6


Reserves
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS
+/-


Boris Diaw (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/diawbo01.html)
28:10
4
7
.571
2
2
1.000
3
4
.750
3
3
6
3
1
1
2
0
13
+19


Manu Ginobili (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/ginobma01.html)
21:10
7
9
.778
3
4
.750
2
2
1.000
0
4
4
6
0
0
0
2
19
+15


Patrick Mills (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/millspa02.html)
15:52
3
5
.600
3
5
.600
0
0

1
1
2
0
0
0
0
2
9
+14


Marco Belinelli (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/belinma01.html)
13:45
1
5
.200
0
2
.000
0
0

0
0
0
1
0
0
1
1
2
+8


Tiago Splitter (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/splitti01.html)
11:45
0
0

0
0

6
8
.750
0
2
2
1
0
0
0
3
6
+16


Cory Joseph (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/josepco01.html)
7:29
1
2
.500
0
0

2
2
1.000
0
2
2
3
1
0
1
0
4
-5


Jeff Ayres (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pendeje02.html)
6:21
1
2
.500
0
0

0
0

0
2
2
0
0
0
0
0
2
-3


Aron Baynes (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/baynear01.html)
3:37
0
0

0
0

0
0

1
2
3
0
0
0
2
1
0
+1



I'd say playing at home was the second biggest. The big 3 having good games especially Manu.

I'd probably put Matt in the same league as the other role players tbh.

That's because you don't actually remember that game beyond with ESPN tells you, as we have discussed. Matt was unreal defensively in that game. He completely shut down Ibaka and even KD on switches. Dude had the game on his life on that end. And Brooks seemed to think the Thunder's best strategy to attack the Spurs would be to let Westbrook take Kawhi, KD Green and Ibaka Bonner in iso plays. It failed really badly.

[dabom]

That's because you don't actually remember that game, as we have discussed. Matt was unreal defensively in that game. He completely shut down Ibaka and even KD on switches. Dude had the game on his life on that end. And Brooks seemed to think the Thunder's best strategy to attack the Spurs would be to let Westbrook take Kawhi, KD Green and Ibaka Bonner in iso plays. It failed really badly.

His best game of his life is an average game to normal players. Go back and watch Pop put Kawhi defend Westbrook which I don't think Pop had done before and watch Manu too. Stop your agenda please.

[dabom]

That's because you don't actually remember that game beyond with ESPN tells you, as we have discussed. Matt was unreal defensively in that game. He completely shut down Ibaka and even KD on switches. Dude had the game on his life on that end. And Brooks seemed to think the Thunder's best strategy to attack the Spurs would be to let Westbrook take Kawhi, KD Green and Ibaka Bonner in iso plays. It failed really badly.

You're shook. Stop embarrassing yourself too. Matt bonner a better game than Kawhi and Manu. WOW. :lmao

[dabom]

4 missed shots 2 player fouls and literally zero of anything else. But he better than Manu and Kawhi this game. WOW. :lmao

I'm done. :lmao

[Chinook]

His best game of his life is an average game to normal players. Go back and watch Pop put Kawhi defend Westbrook which I don't think Pop had done before and watch Manu too. Stop your agenda please.

We've been through this same shit already. Our discussion is on here somewhere. Unlike you, I actually did go back and watch the game at your behest, and I charted out every possession Westbrook touched the ball. Westbrook actually made a ton of good passes in that game, and his teammates clanked open jumper after open jumper. You had Jackson missing open threes, Ibaka bricking open 15-footers from the short corner. It's clear Pop told the team to not let Russ into the paint (Westbrook was shadowed by a big on every drive), and Russ just took what Kawhi gave him and should have racked up about seven or eight more assists.

[SAGirl]

Hasn't +/- over the course of a season been fairly accurate over the years? For example, guys like Timmy/Manu/Kawhi are always near the top and known cancers like Enrique near the bottom?

Bonner was really the only anomaly but I agree with Chinook that the effect of his ability to space the floor has always been underrated.
I think over the course of a season it's different, and obviously analytics and other stats are adjusted to try to more accurately reflect each individual impact.

In single games, though it's a simple stat that just reflects overall how many points the team lost or won while that player was in the game. That is influenced by so many things including teammate play, and the other team getting hot.

[Chinook]

You're shook. Stop embarrassing yourself too. Matt bonner a better game than Kawhi and Manu. WOW. :lmao

No, I just have a good memory and know that you're awful to talk to if it's not in line with your agenda. I have tried before, repeatedly, and that's the conclusion I came up with.

[dabom]

We've been through this same shit already. Our discussion is on here somewhere. Unlike you, I actually did go back and watch the game at your behest, and I charted out every possession Westbrook touched the ball. Westbrook actually made a ton of good passes in that game, and his teammates clanked open jumper after open jumper. You had Jackson missing open threes, Ibaka bricking open 15-footers from the short corner. It's clear Pop told the team to not let Russ into the paint (Westbrook was shadowed by a big on every drive), and Russ just took what Kawhi gave him and should have racked up about seven or eight more assists.

Go back and watch the fucking game again if you think Matt bonner played better than Kawhi and Manu. :lmao

[Chinook]

Go back and watch the fucking game again if you think Matt bonner played better than Kawhi and Manu. :lmao

I never said he played better than those guys. He was supposed to be a weak link, and he more than held his own. Shane Battier didn't outplay Lebron in Game Seven of the 2013 Finals, but he was the biggest reason why the Heat took that game.

[dabom]

I never said he played better than those guys. He was supposed to be a weak link, and he more than held his own. Shane Battier didn't outplay Lebron in Game Seven of the 2013 Finals, but he was the biggest reason why the Heat took that game.

Playing to average standards does not make you a reason why the Spurs won. That just makes you a CoJo type player.

[Chinook]

Playing to average standards does not make you a reason why the Spurs won. That just makes you a CoJo type player.

If you think holding Durant and Ibaka to 2/13 is average, then I don't know what you consider good. Again, the fact that you don't know how well Bonner played shows you don't actually remember that series.

[dabom]

If you think holding Durant and Ibaka to 2/13 is average, then I don't know what you consider good. Again, the fact that you don't know how well Bonner played shows you don't actually remember that series.

And danny green held Durant to low %shots too. Westbrook scored 21 points after scoring something like 45 points and maybe a triple double game 4. Kawhi was the best player on that floor in game 5 followed by Manu. If you think Bonner holding anyone to 2/13 while doing absolutely nothing else is a top reason for winning you are a dumbass. Go back and watch the fucking game please. :lmao

[Chinook]

And danny green held Durant to low %shots too. Westbrook scored 21 points after scoring something like 45 points and maybe a triple double game 4. Kawhi was the best player on that floor in game 5 followed by Manu. If you think Bonner holding anyone to 2/13 while doing absolutely nothing else is a top reason for winning you are a dumbass. Go back and watch the fucking game please. :lmao

All right. I gave you another chance.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

:rolleyes People who think Bonner somehow disproves plus-minus are clueless. The fact that Bonner carries an elite score in that stat despite being at best a mediocre player underscores how powerful his position is. Bonner headlined an entire movement as a stretch-four. He was one of the first guys to show that having a shooting big could work, and furthermore that it can run a twin-towers lineup off the court. He's the reason why Memphis is a dinosaur, who finally seems to have started the change with Green starting the last game.

Plus-minus doesn't suggest that Bonner is a great player. It does suggest that he's a match-up problem.

A very easily gameplanned matchup problem.

[Chinook]

What's the adjustment?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

What's the adjustment?

Hard properly executed closeout with a prescribed spacing depending on the player which he tried to counter with that dribble to the wing hook. It's easy to muck things up when he gets inside. Because of his low release point and windup its easier to get to his shot and teams just stashed whoever out there. The corpse of Mike Miller could make the closeout.

[Chinook]

Sounds like you're advocating small-ball.

[SAGirl]

Bonner was more valuable in the past, when many teams had the traditional 2 big lineup and the pace/space revolution had not overtaken the league. Right now teams are really going perimeter with their tallest SF at the 4, or just having their own stretch big who is a guy 6'10 much like Bonner, who can shoot the 3, but also do many other things (like rebound, pass, shoot from mid-range, etc) better than Bonner can at this stage of his career. For example, a guy like Anderson can guard Bonner easily at this stage, and yet Bonner won't be able to do squat against Anderson. Anderson may shoot poorly, but that is just bc he's been off shooting more than not.

This early, even Boris had two stinkers of a game in a row against truly perimeter oriented lineups in Memphis (w/o Zbo) and the Suns. A level of coasting was in order for Boris I think, but he also put the ball on the floor a number of times and had it taken away by smaller/faster players.

Bonner could have been a plus against Z-bo, but there are few of those teams in the league nowadays.

[dabom]

Bonner can't defend the post or rebound. He would get eaten alive.

[KaiRMD1]

:lol Apo beat you to it, old sport...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/820077ea934e3b8d9ac28c03da6f8c4b/tumblr_mndcaqB5J41rz2bopo1_500.gif

[SAGirl]

Manu's opinion on the +/- stat in a particular game:
663219710981332992