Who is More Important to His Team: Jimmy Butler or Kawhi Leonard?

[Calispursfan11]

Butler is tougher and has a better offensive game, handles and passing. His defense is very solid as well. Kawhi may have a slight edge on defense but it is small. Other than that, I don't see many advantages Kawhi has over Butler. They are very close overall but I Butler gets the edge as the better all around player and is more valuable to his team than Kawhi is to the Spurs. If the Spurs lost Kawhi they would still be pretty good and most likely make the playoffs. If the Bulls lost Butler, their offense would completely break down and they would be sub .500 and out of the playoff hunt.

[kawhidoyoudothistome]

Spurs would be okay, but not for long. The addition of LMA obviously makes the Kawhi-less Spurs a lot more of a threat than a Jimmy Butler-less Bulls, but I could see the Bulls overcoming the odds and making the playoffs. We've seen the Spurs w/o Kawhi before, and it wasn't pretty. Terrible wing defense, getting out rebounded game after game. He's probably our second best (or third now, with LMA in the fold) rebounder. He's the key reason the Spurs went from mediocre 50-win team, to great 50-win team. I do wonder how Jimmy Butler would do on the Spurs, and I'm sure we would have seen that had Kawhi been taken sooner in the draft. I think I read somewhere that the Spurs were targeting him. Kawhi's greater wingspan and all gives him the edge, IMO, because we still have yet to see his full scoring "potential". I wouldn't believe myself if I told my past self that Kawhi would be scoring over 20 a game, because his shot always looked strange and he never looked like the type to be a scorer. Kawhi has definitely proved me, and so many others, wrong. Now I see him as a 24+ ppg, 9 rpg, and 2 spg type of guy.

[tbdog]

Your forgetting the intangibles. Leonard is a straight up winner. He is the one who went head to head against Lebron in two different finals. I only remember Butler having one good series against Lebron.

[apalisoc_9]

Comparing a top 6 player in the league to a top 15. Can the op be anymore dumber?

[100%duncan]

lol Spurs are barely a .500 team w/o kawhi. They don't make the playoffs in the west.

[Robz4000]

Lets put it like this:

Defense - Kawhi >>>>>> Jimmy

Offense - Kawhi << Jimmy

That help?

[100%duncan]

Lets put it like this:

Defense - Kawhi >>>>>> Jimmy

Offense - Kawhi << Jimmy

That help?

Offensively? He's inefficient and inconsistent in the East

[Fireball]

Kawhi is not only a little better on defense ... he is the best in the league.

[Kawhitstorm]

Quit creating posts based on my doodles without giving me credit:jack

[rasuo214]

Spurs are a .500 team without Kawhi. Kawhi is much better defensively, not a little better. Kawhi is also a better rebounder. When it comes to offense Kawhi is a better shooter than Butler. Butler is a better ball handler/passer and he's able to get to the FT line at a much higher rate.

Also if they switched teams I think Kawhi would be a better fit on the Bulls than Butler would be on the Spurs.

[r0drig0lac]

st is not the best place to ask this question

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Spurs are a .500 team without Kawhi. Kawhi is much better defensively, not a little better. Kawhi is also a better rebounder. When it comes to offense Kawhi is a better shooter than Butler. Butler is a better ball handler/passer and he's able to get to the FT line at a much higher rate.

Also if they switched teams I think Kawhi would be a better fit on the Bulls than Butler would be on the Spurs.

No :lol

[rasuo214]

No :lol

Spurs were 9-9 w/o Kawhi last season, 8-8 w/o Kawhi the previous season. So, yes.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Spurs were 9-9 w/o Kawhi last season, 8-8 w/o Kawhi the previous season. So, yes.

Small sample size and out of context. Pretty sure you don't think Kawhi was the difference between the 2014 Spurs winning the championship and missing the playoffs.

Fwiw, the Spurs have a decent record with Tim/big 3 sitting games or when Bud coached over Pop. Doesn't mean much though.

[rasuo214]

Small sample size and out of context. Pretty sure you don't think Kawhi was the difference between the 2014 Spurs winning the championship and missing the playoffs.

Fwiw, the Spurs have a decent record with Tim/big 3 sitting games or when Bud coached over Pop. Doesn't mean much though.

Those are pretty big sample sizes (18 games last season and 16 the previous, that's a fifth of the season). Obviously there's no way to know for certain what would have happened without Kawhi. I'm simply pointing out that the Spurs have been a .500 team without Kawhi the past 2 seasons in response to the OP's post/topic. That's not saying they wouldn't be able to figure things out.

Also Bud has proven to be a quality coach and the key difference was that we had decent depth to withstand one of the Big3 getting injured. Since losing SJax we haven't had a decent backup for Kawhi. Hopefully we don't need to find out if we have the depth this season but if we do we'll see if Anderson, Simmons or Butler can step up.

[kaji157]

Obviously Butler, the Spurs are just much better constructed than the Bulls.

Not saying Butler is better, just that the Bulls have less talent.

[YGWHI]

Calispursfan11"]Butler is tougher and has a better offensive game, handles and passing.

SGs, like Butler, usually have better handles, but we've seen Kawhi driving to the hoop or as pick and roll ball-handler, and he's not bad...


Pts per Drive Leaders
Andrew Wiggins 1.02
Rodney Hood .93
D Cousins .91
Kawhi Leonard .90
Steph Curry .89
Alec Burks .88

Player tracking data ranks him well above-average as a pick and roll ball handler.

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/bal...eviation*E*sas (http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/bal...eviation*E*sas)

Butller doesn't have a better offensive game since Kawhi is a better shooter and more efficient scorer. Better post-up player, shooting off screens, hand off, spot up, transition...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CUmy3NrUwAAnaRV.jpg


His defense is very solid as well. Kawhi may have a slight edge on defense but it is small.
Yeah..."it's small"
667332441644797956

Players are shooting 35% from the field when guarded by Kawhi Leonard.



Other than that, I don't see many advantages Kawhi has over Butler.

Kawhi shooting, FG%, eFG, post up, off screens, spot up, hand off, transition>>>>>>>Butler ball-handler/getting to the line

Kawhi's D >>>>>>> Butler's defense.

There are so many good reasons why the media is talking about Kawhi on figurative MVP discussions over Butler, who doesn't even rank as top 10 player for them.

[Brazil]

lol Spurs are barely a .500 team w/o kawhi. They don't make the playoffs in the west.

:lol wut ?

and Bulls without Buttler are what then ?

dumb statement backed up by nothing

[SupremeGuy]

lol Spurs are barely a .500 team w/o kawhi. They don't make the playoffs in the west.


Spurs are a .500 team without Kawhi. Kawhi is much better defensively, not a little better. Kawhi is also a better rebounder. When it comes to offense Kawhi is a better shooter than Butler. Butler is a better ball handler/passer and he's able to get to the FT line at a much higher rate.

Also if they switched teams I think Kawhi would be a better fit on the Bulls than Butler would be on the Spurs.


Spurs were 9-9 w/o Kawhi last season, 8-8 w/o Kawhi the previous season. So, yes.This.

[SpursFan86]

Kawhi is definitely > Butler...I guess it's closer when you're asking who's more important to their team, but I'd still go with Kawhi.

Think a better question would be who's better between Kawhi and Paul George. PG has been really impressive this year...definitely a pleasant surprise since I honestly wasn't sure if he'd ever fully recover from that leg injury. Will be interesting to see whether him and Kawhi keep up their current levels of play.

[ElNono]

:lol still don't understand why people here overrate Jimmy Butler so much... I suppose it's just to troll Kawhitards...

Jimmy is a good player, but like many others, when he got a bigger offensive role, his defense (which is what got him there) took a massive back seat...

[ElNono]

Also don't forget the East/West disparity when it comes to padding numbers and these kind of comparisons... look at Pierce, who looked like the second coming in Wizards gear last season, and now in the West he looks ready to retire.

[YGWHI]

:lol still don't understand why people here overrate Jimmy Butler so much... I suppose it's just to troll Kawhitards...

Agree. Since OP made a thread saying he wants Parker to have a lot more FGA than Kawhi and LMA ... No one can genuinely think that at this point of Parker's career, with LMA's elite offense and Kawhi's improvement...OP's just trolling here. :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

Kawhi is definitely a better player, but Butler is definitely more valuable for a Bulls team with a shitty roster full of washed-up players, tbh..

[ElNono]

Kawhi is definitely a better player, but Butler is definitely more valuable for a Bulls team with a shitty roster full of washed-up players, tbh..

Bulls just need to move away from Rose...

[dabom]

Rose is so fucking bad on defense and offense and walks around like he owns the whole fucking arena. :lmao

[spursistan]

The debate would still be better Kawhi vs Paul George with the way the latter has comeback..Again, i think playing in the East help, but PG has been quite amazing after that awful foot injury..

[Brazil]

Kawhi is definitely a better player, but Butler is definitely more valuable for a Bulls team with a shitty roster full of washed-up players, tbh..

this plus the fact Pop is 10 times better than rookie Hoiberg

[spursistan]

Also, bear in mind that Kawhi is 2 years younger than Butler..he will make mockery of this comparison down the road at the development rate he is on...

[dabom]

:lol wut ?

and Bulls without Buttler are what then ?

dumb statement backed up by nothing

You don't think the spurs a .500 team without Kawhi or what?

[TXstbobcat]

gotta go with Leonard. DPOY and scoring over 20 points per game. I would take Leonard over Butler.

[YGWHI]

669357249718910976

Kawhi's low impact on this team

[Chinook]

Spurs were 9-9 w/o Kawhi last season, 8-8 w/o Kawhi the previous season. So, yes.

That stat is so misleading, especially for 2014. The Spurs were 8-8 without Kawhi because they literally lost their top three wings at the same time. Once Green came back, the Spurs were 6-3 without Leonard, and that included two games that Pop essentially punted by sitting Duncan and Parker.

For 2015, here's the (apparently non-exhaustive) missed-game list:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015_injuries.html

Do you see what's significant? Kawhi, Parker and Splitter (and Patty obviously) all missed a bunch of time in those games, and the team had to rely on Duncan, Manu and Green to carry the load. That was the month from hell, where the team had 18 games in 31 days. That wasn't conducive to long-term winning.

I'm not at all saying Kawhi isn't a critical player. It's just silly that you and others on this board keep regurgitating ESPN stat-bites instead of actually looking at what's going on. You trade Kawhi for Butler, and the Spurs are still a dominant team in the West, and the Bulls are at best fringe contenders. Kawhi is WAY better than Jimmy, but the Spurs as a whole are WAAAAY better than that roster in Chicago.

[dabom]

That stat is so misleading, especially for 2014. The Spurs were 8-8 without Kawhi because they literally lost their top three wings at the same time. Once Green came back, the Spurs were 6-3 without Leonard, and that included two games that Pop essentially punted by sitting Duncan and Parker.

For 2015, here's the (apparently non-exhaustive) missed-game list:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/2015_injuries.html

Do you see what's significant? Kawhi, Parker and Splitter (and Patty obviously) all missed a bunch of time in those games, and the team had to rely on Duncan, Manu and Green to carry the load. That was the month from hell, where the team had 18 games in 31 days. That wasn't conducive to long-term winning.

I'm not at all saying Kawhi isn't a critical player. It's just silly that you and others on this board keep regurgitating ESPN stat-bites instead of actually looking at what's going on. You trade Kawhi for Butler, and the Spurs are still a dominant team in the West, and the Bulls are at best fringe contenders. Kawhi is WAY better than Jimmy, but the Spurs as a whole are WAAAAY better than that roster in Chicago.

That stat was even before last season. Come back with the numbers.

[Chinook]

That stat was even before last season. Come back with the numbers.

I just did. Did you not see the reference to 2014? That was is injury during the RRT of the 2013-2014 season.

[dabom]

I just did. Did you not see the reference to 2014? That was is injury during the RRT of the 2013-2014 season.

Go back before 2014.

[Chinook]

Go back before 2014.

Why? The post I was responding to didn't:


Spurs were 9-9 w/o Kawhi last season, 8-8 w/o Kawhi the previous season. So, yes.

I'm not going to go around and check info for you. I haven't seen anyone mention the Spurs' 2013 record without Leonard (likely it wasn't significantly different). If you have seen something to suggest different, post it. But you're an awful lazy poster who doesn't fool anyone.

[SpursforSix]

Butler is tougher and has a better offensive game, handles and passing. His defense is very solid as well. Kawhi may have a slight edge on defense but it is small. Other than that, I don't see many advantages Kawhi has over Butler. They are very close overall but I Butler gets the edge as the better all around player and is more valuable to his team than Kawhi is to the Spurs. If the Spurs lost Kawhi they would still be pretty good and most likely make the playoffs. If the Bulls lost Butler, their offense would completely break down and they would be sub .500 and out of the playoff hunt.

you answered the question. I don't think it's even debatable. Without Butler, the Bulls are even more shit. Without Leonard, the Spurs are still a really good team.

[KL2]

Never knew Butler was so old, he's probably peaked.

Butler is a nice player, but he's not on Leonard's level, not nearly as good an offensive player, and his rebounding really falls behind Leonard's which is very important for the Spurs. Both teams without these guys would suck. The Spurs are a very old team, I could easily see Duncan and Manu getting completely burned out by season's end from overcompensating on defense, Parker would break down badly too getting exposed out there. Everyone would have to see extended minutes, this team would just break down.

[dabom]

Why? The post I was responding to didn't:



I'm not going to go around and check info for you. I haven't seen anyone mention the Spurs' 2013 record without Leonard (likely it wasn't significantly different). If you have seen something to suggest different, post it. But you're an awful lazy poster who doesn't fool anyone.

I guess you are the ESPN guy. :lmao

[Chinook]

I guess you are the ESPN guy. :lmao

Not even close. An ESPN guy lets people spoonfeed him info. I researched my own numbers. I just won't do that for you. Again, you're not fooling anyone. You try to ride Harlem's stats or even Apa's and think that makes you even a passable poster. But it doesn't. You've yet to show you have a basketball take that someone didn't give you.

[szkorhetz]

The debate would still be better Kawhi vs Paul George with the way the latter has comeback..Again, i think playing in the East help, but PG has been quite amazing after that awful foot injury..
I would trade Kawhi for PG in a heartbeat. Imagine that duo in Indiana.... (Okay, I know that KL's improvement was really helped by the Spurs and etc, but still scary.)

[Chinook]

I would trade Kawhi for PG in a heartbeat. Imagine that duo in Indiana.... (Okay, I know that KL's improvement was really helped by the Spurs and etc, but still scary.)

I wouldn't. George makes more money, is signed for a year less and has a bigger injury risk. With Kawhi shooting at an elite rate now, I don't know if Paul is a better fit for the offense, and there's already a precedent of George not keeping his frustrations in house.

[DarrinS]

OP: "Butler is tougher..."

Based on what, exactly?

[loveforthegame]

The Bulls can't even get out of the East with Butler so it's a pretty good bet they wouldn't sniff it without him.

How would the Spurs do without Leonard? Do they ring without him?

[dabom]

Not even close. An ESPN guy lets people spoonfeed him info. I researched my own numbers. I just won't do that for you. Again, you're not fooling anyone. You try to ride Harlem's stats or even Apa's and think that makes you even a passable poster. But it doesn't. You've yet to show you have a basketball take that someone didn't give you.

ESPN guys hear it from other people and pass it off just like what you are doing. Go do the research and not some quasi research. :lmao

My takes are my own. You are just a dumbass to differentiate. :lmao

[Chinook]

ESPN guys hear it from other people and pass it off just like what you are doing. Go do the research and not some quasi research. :lmao

My takes are my own. You are just a dumbass to differentiate. :lmao

:cry My takes just happen to be the exact same as the rest of my crew's, honest :cry

Bro, I didn't pass on anything I heard from someone else. Rauso made a claim about two seasons, and I qualified what he said. Your beef is that I didn't argue against or try to qualify claims Rauso didn't make. I can understand why you don't want to use your own takes, since you have no idea how to form a coherent argument.

[dabom]

:cry My takes just happen to be the exact same as the rest of my crew's, honest :cry

Bro, I didn't pass on anything I heard from someone else. Rauso made a claim about two seasons, and I qualified what he said. Your beef is that I didn't argue against or try to qualify claims Rauso didn't make. I can understand why you don't want to use your own takes, since you have no idea how to form a coherent argument.

Every time we get in a discussion. You bring apalisoc_9 and HarlemHeat37. Seeing as how we are top 10 posters in ST I take that as a compliment. :lmao


:tu

Maybe you should try to make game assessments and not just after the fact. Wait that would expose yourself. Carry on. :lmao

[Chinook]

Every time we get in a discussion. You bring apalisoc_9 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11260) and HarlemHeat37 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=11597). Seeing as how we are top 10 posters in ST I take that as a compliment.

I don't quite get the statement you're trying to make, mainly because of your syntax. But no, copying people who are smarter than you doesn't deserve credit. Were you one of those kids who turned in photocopies of Cliffnotes for your English Assignments?


Maybe you should try to make game assessments and not just after the fact. Wait that would expose yourself. Carry on. :lmao

I assume you mean that I should make game predictions, since I make a ton of assessments. I certainly don't feel bad for using stats the way they're supposed to be used (descriptively). I'll take that over your inability to think outside of what people tell you. I just wish you showed that you actually think about what you say, but alas, I'm left waiting.

[SupremeGuy]

669357249718910976

Kawhi's low impact on this teamHoly shit :wow

[dabom]

I don't quite get the statement you're trying to make, mainly because of your syntax. But no, copying people who are smarter than you doesn't deserve credit. Were you one of those kids who turned in photocopies of Cliffnotes for your English Assignments?



I assume you mean that I should make game predictions, since I make a ton of assessments. I certainly don't feel bad for using stats the way they're supposed to be used (descriptively). I'll take that over your inability to think outside of what people tell you. I just wish you showed that you actually think about what you say, but alas, I'm left waiting.

Please post the comments I copied from them. Show me proof faggot. Not just stupid fucking delirious statements. :lmao

Again you have no basketball takes. :lmao

[Hoops Czar]

Butler is tougher and has a better offensive game, handles and passing. His defense is very solid as well. Kawhi may have a slight edge on defense but it is small. Other than that, I don't see many advantages Kawhi has over Butler. They are very close overall but I Butler gets the edge as the better all around player and is more valuable to his team than Kawhi is to the Spurs. If the Spurs lost Kawhi they would still be pretty good and most likely make the playoffs. If the Bulls lost Butler, their offense would completely break down and they would be sub .500 and out of the playoff hunt.

Wouldn't Butler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Green be a better comparison? Is there anything Green can do better than Butler? I mean, Green will always be arguably the greatest shooter in NBA playoff history from a historical perspective (2 years) but Butler is by far the better all around player.

[Chinook]

Please post the comments I copied from them. Show me proof faggot. Not just stupid fucking delirious statements. :lmao

Again you have no basketball takes. :lmao

Why did you bold part of my post and then not even comment on it? Do you not even know that much?

And :lol at the "I said it in my own words" defense. You telling me I have no basketball takes is a really poor line of reasoning. You can disagree with them all you want, but there's no way you can say I don't have them unless you're so clueless you don't even know what a basketball take is.

[Chinook]

Wouldn't Butler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Green be a better comparison? Is there anything Green can do better than Butler? I mean, Green will always be arguably the greatest shooter in NBA playoff history from a historical perspective (2 years) but Butler is by far the better all around player.

You can also argue that Green's a better defender than Butler. I doubt the numbers show that this season, since Danny has been awful. But Jimmy was abysmal in 2014, while Danny was elite. Hell, Green's been elite on defense for years now. There are definitely elements of defense that Green is better than Butler at, like rim protection and transition D. Jimmy is the better overall player, but I won't trade Green for him right now.

[dabom]

Why did you bold part of my post and then not even comment on it? Do you not even know that much?

And :lol at the "I said it in my own words" defense. You telling me I have no basketball takes is a really poor line of reasoning. You can disagree with them all you want, but there's no way you can say I don't have them unless you're so clueless you don't even know what a basketball take is.

"I certainly don't feel bad for using stats the way they're supposed to be used (descriptively)."

"Again you have no basketball takes. :lmao"

Again I looked up "basketball take" and nothing relevant came out. If you have a different definition that's fine. Let's not argue on the semantics.

Lets bringing it back on topic using normal language. You don't provide any predictions or assess future match up problems for the Spurs. :lmao

[dabom]

Also casually ignoring how I copy Apol and Harlem. :lmao

[peacemaker885]

Kawhi. Butler won't last under Pop. Very few players can last in the Spurs system. One has to be super efficient offensively to get the numbers since you really can't hog the ball.

[cjw]

Those are pretty big sample sizes (18 games last season and 16 the previous, that's a fifth of the season). Obviously there's no way to know for certain what would have happened without Kawhi. I'm simply pointing out that the Spurs have been a .500 team without Kawhi the past 2 seasons in response to the OP's post/topic. That's not saying they wouldn't be able to figure things out.

Right on sample size = that's pretty telling how the team struggled without him. Last year, it was partly too the time of year he went down and how brutal that stretch was. Also, there was literally no viable backup for him during that stretch. We see what happens when a guy like Belli is forced to play starter minutes at SF.

[Brazil]

You don't think the spurs a .500 team without Kawhi or what?

Without Kawhi Spurs are much worst team but still > .500 team... are you saying without Kawhi Spurs miss the POs ? it never happened under Duncan's era before and after Kawhi. We made the POs with RMJ, centerpiece and fucking RJ. Stats about team being 8-8 and 9-9 without him are misleading as pointed out by Chinook as I've seen next page, not counting the fact without Kawhi there is a roster spot to fill.

[dabom]

Without Kawhi Spurs are much worst team but still > .500 team... are you saying without Kawhi Spurs miss the POs ? it never happened under Duncan's era before and after Kawhi. We made the POs with RMJ, centerpiece and fucking RJ. Stats about team being 8-8 and 9-9 without him are misleading as pointed out by Chinook as I've seen next page, not counting the fact without Kawhi there is a roster spot to fill.

The big three wasn't as old as it is now. Granted the west is weak this year, we still don't have a wing back-up that can spell minutes that even patty mills actually plays big minutes with Tony. We still don't have a SF backup. KA is not the answer. The team can't rebound as great without Kawhi. Imagine a lot of second chance points for other teams. The team just looks old and can't get over the hump when Kawhi isn't playing. And unlike Tony and Manu, you can give more minutes to Kawhi any game and it wouldn't have repercussions.

The team would hover above .500 and maybe not even have a 50 win record. That's how I see it.

[SpurPadre]

Paul George would be the better comparison, tbh.

[All Mighty Janitor]

This tread got me thinking. Is Jimmy Butler the best shooting guard right now? Harden has been shit; regressed on D(back to 2013-14 levels if not worse), terrible shooting percentages(although his true shooting % is ok but not normal), and high ass turnovers. Klay hasn't been himself either. Beal looked great vs us, but Butler is still better in almost every category.

[Chinook]

"I certainly don't feel bad for using stats the way they're supposed to be used (descriptively)."

"Again you have no basketball takes. :lmao"

Again I looked up "basketball take" and nothing relevant came out. If you have a different definition that's fine. Let's not argue on the semantics.

Lets bringing it back on topic using normal language. You don't provide any predictions or assess future match up problems for the Spurs. :lmao

Yes, stats say what happened, not what will happen. That's basic statistical philosophy. You can't say that player X will do well in situation A simply because of his stats. Anything can happen, and trends break all the time. Stats are an analytical tool, and they don't belong in predictive discussion. But to say I never make predictions or give my opinions on the present is silly. I'm as big of a frequenter of the Think Tank as anyone here is. I have posts in many threads talking about LMA fitting in and the potential match-up with GS. The fact that you don't know that simply means you don't look, or that you don't recognize an actual take.

Your emoticons don't hide the fact that you have no substance as a poster. It never did.

[Chinook]

Also casually ignoring how I copy Apol and Harlem. :lmao

What does that even mean?

[dabom]

What does that even mean?

Show proof dumbass.

[dabom]

Yes, stats say what happened, not what will happen. That's basic statistical philosophy. You can't say that player X will do well in situation A simply because of his stats. Anything can happen, and trends break all the time. Stats are an analytical tool, and they don't belong in predictive discussion. But to say I never make predictions or give my opinions on the present is silly. I'm as big of a frequenter of the Think Tank as anyone here is. I have posts in many threads talking about LMA fitting in and the potential match-up with GS. The fact that you don't know that simply means you don't look, or that you don't recognize an actual take.

Your emoticons don't hide the fact that you have no substance as a poster. It never did.

Never seen you post anything relevant in the Spurs Forum. Posting under think tank doesn't make you any better. I post where everyone is because I ain't afraid to be critiqued. I ain't a puss like you.

Walls of text doesn't make you smarter dumbass. :tu

[Hoops Czar]

Never seen you post anything relevant in the Spurs Forum. Posting under think tank doesn't make you any better. I post where everyone is because I ain't afraid to be critiqued. I ain't a puss like you.

Do you see the irony in this post? I don't think I've ever come across a dabom post that needed to be critiqued :lol.

[Chinook]

Show proof dumbass.

Are you sure that's what that sentence means?

[Chinook]

Never seen you post anything relevant in the Spurs Forum. Posting under think tank doesn't make you any better. I post where everyone is because I ain't afraid to be critiqued. I ain't a puss like you.

Walls of text doesn't make you smarter dumbass. :tu

The point of the Think Tank is to speculate. Are you really that worthless at understanding? I'm the mod of a forum whose entire goal is to speculate, and you try to pretend like I only talk about the past? And that completely ignores the thousands of regular-forum posts I've made.

The only possible saving grace I have for you is that you must thinking that making new threads is the only way to have basketball takes. You'd be right to say I don't make threads too often, probably five a year not counting the TT. I don't have to make a new topic any time I have a thought like you seem compelled to do.

[DPG21920]

The point of the Think Tank is to speculate. Are you really that worthless at understanding? I'm the mod of a forum whose entire goal is to speculate, and you try to pretend like I only talk about the past? And that completely ignores the thousands of regular-forum posts I've made.

The only possible saving grace I have for you is that you must thinking that making new threads is the only way to have basketball takes. You'd be right to say I don't make threads too often, probably five a year not counting the TT. I don't have to make a new topic any time I have a thought like you seem compelled to do.

:lol Why are you arguing with this person? It's really stupid to go back and forth unless it's fun for you..

[Brazil]

The big three wasn't as old as it is now. Granted the west is weak this year, we still don't have a wing back-up that can spell minutes that even patty mills actually plays big minutes with Tony. We still don't have a SF backup. KA is not the answer. The team can't rebound as great without Kawhi. Imagine a lot of second chance points for other teams. The team just looks old and can't get over the hump when Kawhi isn't playing. And unlike Tony and Manu, you can give more minutes to Kawhi any game and it wouldn't have repercussions.

The team would hover above .500 and maybe not even have a 50 win record. That's how I see it.

Reading your post I think we overall agree tbh

Kawhi is clearly the one who put the Spurs in the contender list but this roster leaded by Tim with a capabe dude at SF position would be enough to get a PO spot and a win record > .500.

[Chinook]

:lol Why are you arguing with this person? It's really stupid to go back and forth unless it's fun for you..

Thanksgiving Wednesday, and I'm bored. Plus, I hate seeing that red '1' on my page.

[DPG21920]

Thanksgiving Wednesday, and I'm bored. Plus, I hate seeing that red '1' on my page.

Got ya - but I just hate to see people expend energy on stuff like that. Especially if you aren't taking the opportunity to at least crack some jokes in there.

[cjw]

This tread got me thinking. Is Jimmy Butler the best shooting guard right now? Harden has been shit; regressed on D(back to 2013-14 levels if not worse), terrible shooting percentages(although his true shooting % is ok but not normal), and high ass turnovers. Klay hasn't been himself either. Beal looked great vs us, but Butler is still better in almost every category.

This has been going on longer than just this season. In 59 games since last year's ASG (including playoffs), Harden is averaging 27.4 ppg on awful shooting:

300/656 from 2pt (45.7%)
144/425 from 3pt (33.9%)
587/665 from FT (88.3%) - nearly 10ppg from line

7.05 assists to 4.2 turnovers

That's really bad considering it's not like this is AI in his prime on a team full of D-League quality guys.

[dabom]

The point of the Think Tank is to speculate. Are you really that worthless at understanding? I'm the mod of a forum whose entire goal is to speculate, and you try to pretend like I only talk about the past? And that completely ignores the thousands of regular-forum posts I've made.

The only possible saving grace I have for you is that you must thinking that making new threads is the only way to have basketball takes. You'd be right to say I don't make threads too often, probably five a year not counting the TT. I don't have to make a new topic any time I have a thought like you seem compelled to do.

I'm going to ignore your shit "takes". I'm done with this conversation. Don't want to ruffle cyber feathers. :lmao

[rasuo214]

Without Kawhi Spurs are much worst team but still > .500 team... are you saying without Kawhi Spurs miss the POs ? it never happened under Duncan's era before and after Kawhi. We made the POs with RMJ, centerpiece and fucking RJ. Stats about team being 8-8 and 9-9 without him are misleading as pointed out by Chinook as I've seen next page, not counting the fact without Kawhi there is a roster spot to fill.

Depends on the type of discussion we're having, if it's Kawhi left the team and the Spurs replaced him or Kawhi suffered a serious injury during the season where the team didn't have a chance to adequately replace him. There's a big difference between the 2 scenarios. I think Kawhi was crucial last season, Parker was a shell of his former self, Manu wasn't playing very well, and that's a lot to ask from TD. Plus you add that other guys were having subpar seasons. Difference between then and pre-Kawhi is that Parker was still in his prime and Manu and TD were 5+ years younger. 33 yr old Manu averaged 17 ppg and 30 mpg (in 80 games), do you really think 38 yr old Manu could do that without suffering an injury?

Now with LMA they could probably ride him if something happened to Kawhi, you also add that Parker and Manu are playing much better than last season and Kyle Anderson would probably be a decent fill in.

[dabom]

Reading your post I think we overall agree tbh

Kawhi is clearly the one who put the Spurs in the contender list but this roster leaded by Tim with a capabe dude at SF position would be enough to get a PO spot and a win record > .500.

Forgot about that side of the equation. Spurs could hit 50 if that's the case.

[SAGirl]

Do you see the irony in this post? I don't think I've ever come across a dabom post that needed to be critiqued :lol.
I completely just ignore him. There is nothing worth reading he has to share, and he doesn't even merit a response. Chinook here is being a class act bothering with this guy.

[dabom]

Three people viewing the think tank as we speak on a game night, but I'm criticized for not posting there. :lmao

I'm done. :lmao

[100%duncan]

:lol wut ?

and Bulls without Buttler are what then ?

dumb statement backed up by nothing

?

9-9, 8-8 records? Are you making the playoffs with a barely .500 record in 34 games? Imagine if that were 82 games.

You make the playoffs in the east below .500.

Mad :lol

[Arcadian]

Idk who's more valuable to his team (which is inherently difficult to evaluate due to the number of variables involved), but Kawhi is without doubt the superior player... If you really think Butler is better, you can go fuck yourself.

You might be able to make a case for Butler today (I don't think so, but maybe some idiots would)...but in a few years, you will be universally laughed at for saying something like that.

[100%duncan]

The fact that the spurs looked so done before kawhi came into the league should speak volumes

[ElNono]

Wouldn't Butler >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Green be a better comparison? Is there anything Green can do better than Butler? I mean, Green will always be arguably the greatest shooter in NBA playoff history from a historical perspective (2 years) but Butler is by far the better all around player.

Possibly, but IIRC, Butler also suffer from dropoffs in his numbers in the postseason... don't remember last season, but definitely in prior playoffs... Danny can get ride his hot hand even in the postseason...

[Arcadian]

:lol

[Brazil]

?

9-9, 8-8 records? Are you making the playoffs with a barely .500 record in 34 games? Imagine if that were 82 games.

You make the playoffs in the east below .500.

Mad :lol

you should read the posts above to understand these numbers are quite misleading taking out of context for once, for two you are pretty stupid if you don't believe this roster is not a > .500 team without Kawhi but a just capable SF that would fill the roster spot.

Then it is pretty obvious Bulls are more dependent right now of Butler as they have a shitty overall roster and a rookie of a coach.

but yeah go ahead with your cute :lol Mad

[100%duncan]

you should read the posts above to understand these numbers are quite misleading taking out of context for once, for two you are pretty stupid if you don't believe this roster is not a > .500 team without Kawhi but a just capable SF that would fill the roster spot.

Then it is pretty obvious Bulls are more dependent right now of Butler as they have a shitty overall roster and a rookie of a coach.

but yeah go ahead with your cute :lol Mad

Why are you so mad? Calling me stupid and all, seems like you really are agitated right now tbh.

1. It is indeed taken out of context since a going .500 for just 34 games is really incomparable vs an 82 game season. The chances are the Spurs would have a worse record in a longer stretch of time. And there would be no capable sf who could handle 30+ mins in our roster right now.

2. Because of 1, Spurs don't make the playoffs in the west.

3. Well that is relative because Bulls play in the east, and for sure will make the playoffs even if Butler is out.

I don't have a problem if you wanna force that butler is more valuable than kawhi tbh but stating it's dumb to say otherwise is, well, dumb when you look at the numbers and the difference in the competition in the conferences.

[Brazil]

Why are you so mad? Calling me stupid and all, seems like you really are agitated right now tbh.

1. It is indeed taken out of context since a going .500 for just 34 games is really incomparable vs an 82 game season. The chances are the Spurs would have a worse record in a longer stretch of time. And there would be no capable sf who could handle 30+ mins in our roster right now.

2. Because of 1, Spurs don't make the playoffs in the west.

3. Well that is relative because Bulls play in the east, and for sure will make the playoffs even if Butler is out.

I don't have a problem if you wanna force that butler is more valuable than kawhi tbh but stating it's dumb to say otherwise is, well, dumb when you look at the numbers and the difference in the competition in the conferences.

I guess you've read nothing of this thread tbh

Where did you see I'm mad ? Am I hurting your feelings with my you are pretty stupid... sorry brah it's so offensive

1. on this 34 games there are a good stretch of games with pieces of the roster also missing, again learn to read. If Kawhi had to miss 82 games, Spurs would obviously adapt roster and get a capable, decent, average whatever SF.

2. answered

3. it is to be seen but point is they are more dependent of his level of play

I never said Butler is more valuable as a whole, thread is more important to his team but go ahead with mixing things up

[100%duncan]

I guess you've read nothing of this thread tbh

Where did you see I'm mad ? Am I hurting your feelings with my you are pretty stupid... sorry brah it's so offensive

1. on this 34 games there are a good stretch of games with pieces of the roster also missing, again learn to read. If Kawhi had to miss 82 games, Spurs would obviously adapt roster and get a capable, decent, average whatever SF.

2. answered

3. it is to be seen but point is they are more dependent of his level of play

I never said Butler is more valuable as a whole, thread is more important to his team but go ahead with mixing things up

I've never mixed anything up :lol if you have common sense what I was saying is i have no problem if anyone thinks butler is more valuable to his team than kawhi to the spurs, because that is the question of the thread

[Brazil]

I've never mixed anything up :lol if you have common sense what I was saying is i have no problem if anyone thinks butler is more valuable to his team than kawhi to the spurs, because that is the question of the thread

your capitulation is duly noted

carry on tbh...

[100%duncan]

your capitulation is duly noted

carry on tbh...

:wakeup

[Raven]

butler is in a different league, Kawhi is in a league on his own right now.

[Spurtacular]

Comparing a top 6 player in the league to a top 15. Can the op be anymore dumber?

Can you be dumber? Your subjective ranking has nothing to do with who is more important to his team....

[Spurtacular]

Comparing a top 6 player in the league to a top 15. Can the op be anymore dumber?

Who are the five players you are ranking ahead of Kawhi?

[Aztecfan03]

Spurs were 9-9 w/o Kawhi last season, 8-8 w/o Kawhi the previous season. So, yes.
Those teams didn't include LMA and also had other injured players besides Kawhi.

[Aztecfan03]

Maybe you should try to make game assessments and not just after the fact.

What the fuck does this even mean? Game assessments are inherently "after the fact"

[dabom]

What the fuck does this even mean? Game assessments are inherently "after the fact"

Suck dick faggot. Go back to your poverty school. :lmao

[Aztecfan03]

Suck dick faggot. Go back to your poverty school. :lmao
You do enough of that for this whole forum.

[dabom]

You do enough of that for this whole forum.

Don't bump dead shit faggot.

[Calispursfan11]

All this Kawhi-worship and I am still not convinced that the Spurs as currently constructed would be that bad without Kawhi. Sure, we wouldn't be title contenders but we would make the playoffs. This team is DEEP. Without Jimmy Butler, the bulls are left with a double vision injury prone "has been" to lead them along with a bunch of OK players. Mirotic is terrible btw. Have you seen how that guy flops? Noah can't' score a bucket to save his life and Pau is washed up. He still grunts and screams a lot under the basket but you see him miss a lot of bunnies and 15 footers he used to make. Yeah, Jimmy Butler is more important to his team right now, especially with Kirk Hinrich being the second best (or at least most skilled player) on the team.

[Calispursfan11]

This fool is always falling on the floor.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nucvx4tfgA

Worse than


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD3-B2pTE9g


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLzRKeWlIxE

[bic50]

All this Kawhi-worship and I am still not convinced that the Spurs as currently constructed would be that bad without Kawhi. Sure, we wouldn't be title contenders but we would make the playoffs. This team is DEEP. Without Jimmy Butler, the bulls are left with a double vision injury prone "has been" to lead them along with a bunch of OK players. Mirotic is terrible btw. Have you seen how that guy flops? Noah can't' score a bucket to save his life and Pau is washed up. He still grunts and screams a lot under the basket but you see him miss a lot of bunnies and 15 footers he used to make. Yeah, Jimmy Butler is more important to his team right now, especially with Kirk Hinrich being the second best (or at least most skilled player) on the team.

Unless aldridge can get back to the level he was in Portland, I seriously doubt that this is very good at all without leonard.

[YGWHI]

Your subjective ranking...Who are the five players you are ranking ahead of Kawhi?

Doesn't matter the methods and metrics used to determine the value of players...all rankings are subjective. But it's nice to read that Kawhi's case for MVP is ascending on national media.

http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/sekou_smith/11/27/kia-race-to-the-mvp-anthony-davis-hopes-for-winning-award-new-orleans-pelicans/index.html

[Spurtacular]

Doesn't matter the methods and metrics used to determine the value of players...all rankings are subjective. But it's nice to read that Kawhi's case for MVP is ascending on national media.

http://www.nba.com/2015/news/features/sekou_smith/11/27/kia-race-to-the-mvp-anthony-davis-hopes-for-winning-award-new-orleans-pelicans/index.html

Yea, all rankings are subjective; and my point was the difference between 6 and 15 in such ratings shouldn't be over-stressed in the course of analytical discussion of a more technical persuasion.

I agree it's good to see KL in the MVP discussion. Curry's gonna have to get injured or something though.

And btw....KL and Butler are 4 and 7 in that ranking you listed, showing how stupid the point really was, anyhow.

[YGWHI]

Curry's gonna have to get injured or something though.

Agree. Without doubt healthy Curry is the MVP, if someone talks about other player is just on figurative mode.

[DAF86]

I don't think Spurs would have won this game tonight without Kawhi, tbh.

[DAF86]

Is Kawhi number 2 in MVP right now?

[loveforthegame]

Still overrated? Still just a spot up shooter?

[YGWHI]

I don't think Spurs would have won this game tonight without Kawhi, tbh.

[apalisoc_9]

Is Kawhi number 2 in MVP right now?

Probably head and neck with Lebron..Geroge is up there but his defense has been suspect.

Westbrook and Durant are getting ridiculous benefit of the doubt without actual improvment in play, sadly,

Imo...

Curry
Lebron
Leonard
George

Does not matter..

But the mainstream take would be

Curry
Lebron
Westbrook

It is what it is..

Spursfans gotta do a better job of doing self PR

[100%duncan]

:lol OP

[DAF86]

Folks talking about Butler's playmaking ability got me thinking he was the second coming of Manu. I go to check his numbers and he averages 3.5 apg on more than 36 minutes per game. :lol

[KL2]

He simply can't match Leonard, Leonard's a better player on both sides of the ball.

[Kawhitstorm]

Folks talking about Butler's playmaking ability got me thinking he was the second coming of Manu. I go to check his numbers and he averages 3.5 apg on more than 36 minutes per game. :lol

That's b/c he plays w/ a ball hog who still thinks he's a top 10 player, his number are quite different when Rose is out of the lineup.

[apalisoc_9]

That's b/c he plays w/ a ball hog who still thinks he's a top 10 player, his number are quite different when Rose is out of the lineup.

I keep on telling bulls fans that Rose is legit keeping his team down and Butler down...

[spursistan]

match-up watch on Monday..Chicago has been a tough place for us recently..

[Sean Cagney]

match-up watch on Monday..Chicago has been a tough place for us recently..
Yes indeed, the Spurs do seem to struggle there. That is a tough game.

[Kawhitstorm]

Jimmy is the best SG, Kawhi is the best SF.:toast

-End of story

P.S. Could have traded Danny for Jimmy last season.:bang

[eyeh8u]

Jimmy is the best SG, Kawhi is the best SF.:toast

-End of story

P.S. Could have traded Danny for Jimmy last season.:bang

Could have drafted Jimmy instead of Cojo

[cjw]

Could have drafted Jimmy instead of Cojo

CoJo over Butler for a team that had just traded away its backup PG for Kawhi in what was a deep PG draft is more acceptable than Morey picking the crappy Morris twin over Kawhi.

Butler and Isiah Thomas as the two end of round picks is pretty strong.

[eyeh8u]

CoJo over Butler for a team that had just traded away its backup PG for Kawhi in what was a deep PG draft is more acceptable than Morey picking the crappy Morris twin over Kawhi.

Butler and Isiah Thomas as the two end of round picks is pretty strong.

oh i get why they did what they did, hindsight is always 20/20. it would have been nice to have both though , especially since Butler was on the Spurs draftboard and an the next option if the Spurs werent able to get Leonard. No one could have predicted how far both players have come. If onlys and justs were candies and nuts, then everyday would be un de donkfest