Elephant in the room: The turd towers (2.0) are the bane of the Spurs right now [Archive]

UNT Eagles 2016

11-25-2015, 11:39 PM

As it stands, we simply fall apart on both ends, particularly on defense, when Bobo/West are in the game at the same time as the 2 "bigs"...

Whenever neither of Aldridge nor Duncan is in the game, other teams see that as the green light to take it all the way and punish the Spurs for having no interior defense. Notice how the Mavs had 8 points with 2 minutes to go in the first quarter, the Spurs go to the turd towers & all of a sudden the Mavs have 18 and the Spurs only have 4 more points at the end of the quarter?

This is NOT, by any stretch, the first or second instance in which this pattern has occurred. Remember the Washington game, or even the OKC loss on opening night? The turd towers got killed by actual bigs with skill and height, not to mention they couldn't guard penetration if their life depended upon it.

Is Popovich going to play Boban, make a trade (say, Anderson) for a decent bench center with height and defense, or just stand pat and watch that line up screw us in the rear end as a similar one did in 2011 against the Grizzlies? Is it going to come down to CoP vs. Krew bearing the brunt for bowing out in the playoffs even though the lack of a solid bench rotation is much more explanatory? Please... use your head Pop! We almost lost tonight at home to a mediocre team playing the second night of their back-to-back. :nope

DarrinS

11-25-2015, 11:41 PM

Bad combo, but both those guys have high BBIQ. Not worried about either of them.

dabom

11-25-2015, 11:43 PM

They are played out of position. Not their fault. That's on Pop.

UNT Eagles 2016

11-25-2015, 11:43 PM

Bad combo, but both those guys have high BBIQ. Not worried about either of them.
Bonner and Blair allegedly did, too... I mean, we started out 46–9 one season with those guys playing big minutes together... :lol

SpursFan86

11-25-2015, 11:45 PM

Chinook

11-25-2015, 11:49 PM

I'm not sure the Spurs win if they played Boban over West. The issue with them is that Diaw isn't playing very well and West isn't going to carry a bench even when he does play well. Dallas of all teams didn't exploit the bench's lack of size.

Uriel

11-25-2015, 11:56 PM

This is why we should've traded Diaw instead of Splitter.

sasaint

11-25-2015, 11:58 PM

Spurs have actually been pretty solid defensively with both West/Diaw on the court...DRTG of 95.9 in the 100+ minutes they've both been on the court.

Regardless, he's doing it more in the regular season in order to preserve Duncan, and he's also already shown signs of experimenting with staggering Duncan with the bench. I wouldn't be too worried about it being a huge issue in the playoffs.

Perhaps you can post figures for the TD/LMA, TD/DWest, TD/Diaw, LMA/DWest and LMA/Diaw combos, too. I personally think that we will eventually have to employ two squads that essentially mirror each other by splitting up LMA and Timmy for virtually entire games.

Obi Juan Kenobi

11-25-2015, 11:58 PM

These guys are no where near Turd Tower territory...

ElNono

11-25-2015, 11:59 PM

I don't know about that. We lost a lot of points with the bench playing with Kawhi and LMA alongside Diaw, Manu and Patty... it was just really an awful game for the bench, no matter who was out there with them...

DarrinS

11-25-2015, 11:59 PM

This is why we should've traded Diaw instead of Splitter.

GFY

midnightpulp

11-26-2015, 12:00 AM

Elephant in the room right now is Danny Green.

ElNono

11-26-2015, 12:00 AM

Spurs have actually been pretty solid defensively with both West/Diaw on the court...DRTG of 95.9 in the 100+ minutes they've both been on the court.

Regardless, he's doing it more in the regular season in order to preserve Duncan, and he's also already shown signs of experimenting with staggering Duncan with the bench. I wouldn't be too worried about it being a huge issue in the playoffs.

Yeah, I thought earlier in the season, it was more of a problem, especially with West being out of position a lot. But I thought he's made strides on that the last few games.

sasaint

11-26-2015, 12:02 AM

This is why we should've traded Diaw instead of Splitter.

Not sure we could have - even to Bud. Bud was planning on using Tiago. Not sure he would have made the same assumption with Diaw. I'm pretty sure people remember his stint in Charlotte and fear a reversion to that form. I think people consider Boris perhaps the biggest example of a Spurs system player, simply because of his attitude.

SpursFan86

11-26-2015, 12:05 AM

Perhaps you can post figures for the TD/LMA, TD/DWest, TD/Diaw, LMA/DWest and LMA/Diaw combos, too. I personally think that we will eventually have to employ two squads that essentially mirror each other by splitting up LMA and Timmy for virtually entire games.

TD/LMA: DRTG = 99.4 (246 minutes played this season)
TD/West: DRTG = 94.3 (65 minutes played this season)
TD/Diaw: DRTG = 80.7 (40 minutes played this season)
LMA/West: DRTG = 106.5 (15 minutes played this season)
LMA/Diaw: DRTG = 92.3 (98 minutes played this season)

SpursFan86

11-26-2015, 12:07 AM

Yeah, I thought earlier in the season, it was more of a problem, especially with West being out of position a lot. But I thought he's made strides on that the last few games.

Yeah I wasn't trying to say it hasn't been an issue at all. I do remember the West/Diaw duo causing problems in games like the OKC and Washington ones. Just saying that overall, they haven't been as horrible as OP is making them out to be.

Budkin

11-26-2015, 12:09 AM

These guys are no where near Turd Tower territory...

sasaint

11-26-2015, 12:12 AM

TD/LMA: DRTG = 99.4 (246 minutes played this season)
TD/West: DRTG = 94.3 (65 minutes played this season)
TD/Diaw: DRTG = 80.7 (40 minutes played this season)
LMA/West: DRTG = 106.5 (15 minutes played this season)
LMA/Diaw: DRTG = 92.3 (98 minutes played this season)

Thanks a lot. My inclination has been to want to pair LMA with West and Duncan with Diaw, for the sake of continuity. But I bet we see LMA/Diaw and Duncan/West paired increasingly. By next year, I expect Duncan to come off the bench as the Elder Statesman in Residence, possibly paired with Boris if he doesn't retire, and in that event, with Kyle at the 4.

Amuseddaysleeper

11-26-2015, 12:28 AM

This is why we should've traded Diaw instead of Splitter.

No no no no no, Diaw is one of the most unique bigs in the league. I thought Splitter was great, but his skillset is much more replaceable than Diaw's.

ajh18

11-26-2015, 01:09 AM

Tonight the worst stretch came when West was left out there as a small ball 5 with Kawhi/Butler at the 4. Didn't understand that lineup at all, even though West actually played well.

TrainOfThought5

11-26-2015, 01:33 AM

We dont miss splitter. We miss baynes.

Biernutz

11-26-2015, 01:33 AM

This was the worst bench game of the year , but we have more changes with new faces this year.
The bench will have these some of these games as Pop plays the same swapping of players
as he has every year. Look for this till at least the all-star break.

Mr Bones

11-26-2015, 01:45 AM

This isn't so much an elephant in the room as it is a simple understanding that the #1, #2, & #3 bigs are better than the #4 & #5 bigs. Not very surprising. This is kinda like those threads in 2014 that said there's no way the Spurs win a championship with Bonner on the team.

SAGirl

11-26-2015, 02:10 AM

Tonight the worst stretch came when West was left out there as a small ball 5 with Kawhi/Butler at the 4. Didn't understand that lineup at all, even though West actually played well.
Butler is playing out of position as a 4, and maybe he doesn't know the offense as a 4, which is quite complicated, and just spots up like Bonner would do. He doesn't screen others, or set picks, or cuts. Its just weird. It's for sure more stagnant than it looks with Kyle and Diaw as a 4. It was a headscratcher decision that I already complained about in the game thread, but 3 things:

(1) Pop possibly upset with Kyle he drew an offensive foul. Young player and all, Pop coaching him very tough, he got benched.

(2) Pop also testing whether Butler as a 4 works or not during the regular season. Has to know whether that lineup will work at all. To me it didn't look better than when you have Kyle as a stretch 4 bc Kyle is more active off the ball and higher BBIQ player.

Finally: (3) If you play small ball your defense and rebounding is severely compromised. It only works or pays off for you if your scoring is explosive during that stretch or your perimeter D is stout enough to cause havoc. We saw some of this against the Suns. The quality of the players you have in that lineup influences how effective it will be. I actually liked Kyle with TD, bc TD is a very good rim protector. Heck during preseason, Kyle/Boban combo was a thing. Pop would not throw an experimental lineup like this unless we were loosing by a blowout, and yet who knows? It could work.

Sean Cagney

11-26-2015, 03:55 AM

No no no no no, Diaw is one of the most unique bigs in the league. I thought Splitter was great, but his skillset is much more replaceable than Diaw's.

Yes, plus he is never healthy....

Obstructed_View

11-26-2015, 06:01 AM

ceperez

11-26-2015, 07:16 AM

Nope. Danny Green is a bigger problem.

But I'd love to see Bomar get some more fucking PT. Seems like he does something positive whenever he's on the floor. And he's the ultimate weapon for a smallball killer.

Boban can't guard the perimeter. Of course, it is obvious that he could easily score on a small ball lineup. So in the case of Golden state... you may leave Igoudala open at the perimeter and dare him to shoot.

Obstructed_View

11-26-2015, 08:46 AM

Boban can't guard the perimeter. Of course, it is obvious that he could easily score on a small ball lineup. So in the case of Golden state... you may leave Igoudala open at the perimeter and dare him to shoot.

From what I've seen, his ability to guard the perimeter is precisely why I say he would be great against small lineups. His footspeed for his length gives him the ability to recover. Like you said, his dominance on the offensive end (and his ability to pass out of double teams) would make it something to try even if he were a liability on defense. With the defense I've seen, it seems like a no-brainer.

Keepin' it real

11-26-2015, 09:29 AM

exstatic

11-26-2015, 09:53 AM

These guys are no where near Turd Tower territory...

This. Your memory is SERIOUSLY clouded if you even think these guys are comparable to Blair/Bonner.

exstatic

11-26-2015, 10:01 AM

We dont miss splitter. We miss baynes.

Unfortunately, Detroit threw STUPID money at him, and he's currently averaging 4.3/3.9. That's less than he put up here for $2M.

Allan Rowe vs Wade

11-26-2015, 10:01 AM

Patty Mills is the weak link right now. The dumpster juice flows through him

exstatic

11-26-2015, 10:08 AM

Patty Mills is the weak link right now. The dumpster juice flows through him

Mills and Manu were the reasons we struggled last night. Patty seems to be channeling his inner streaky Green these days.

Obstructed_View

11-26-2015, 10:54 AM

Why are so many obsessed with Boban? He's our modern-day Jack Haley, the last big off the bench. Stop pretending he's anything else.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I like him because he's a center and he can play. I prefer centers playing the center position in the NBA.

FuzzyLumpkins

11-26-2015, 01:55 PM

This is why we should've traded Diaw instead of Splitter.

Yeah with George coming off injury last year we surely could have gotten him for Buttcheeks! :rolleyes:

FuzzyLumpkins

11-26-2015, 01:59 PM

Why are so many obsessed with Boban? He's our modern-day Jack Haley, the last big off the bench. Stop pretending he's anything else.

Oh, and anyone comparing Diaw/West with Bonner/Blair is flat out retarded. Happy Thanksgiving!

Haley was brought in because he was Rodman's friend.

Boban was the Euroleague top C. What award at any level above HS did Haley win?

And did you really just forget the years Baynes was here? He looked worse that Boban in a lot of ways yet he was sought quickly on the FA market.

Players routinely come to the Spurs an improve. Who would Marjanovich be any different?

HarlemHeat37

11-26-2015, 02:26 PM

You guys form too many conclusions in November, tbh..

Leetonidas

11-26-2015, 02:32 PM

Lol complaining about being 12-3 with a bunch of new pieces learning to play together. C'mon son

timtonymanu

11-26-2015, 03:40 PM

No no no no no, Diaw is one of the most unique bigs in the league. I thought Splitter was great, but his skillset is much more replaceable than Diaw's.

This. Since beating GS is the only way to win a title this year, I think Diaw/Aldridge offensively would be a bigger threat than Aldridge/Splitter.

Spurtacular

11-26-2015, 05:46 PM

Boban has not impressed, tbh. He's at the end of the bench where he belongs.

daledondale

11-26-2015, 06:37 PM

Lol complaining about being 12-3 with a bunch of new pieces learning to play together. C'mon son
This.

spurtech09

11-26-2015, 06:39 PM

This is why we should've traded Diaw instead of Splitter.
Splitter can't stay healthy ...

TD 21

11-26-2015, 06:50 PM

spurs10

11-26-2015, 07:21 PM

Lol complaining about being 12-3 with a bunch of new pieces learning to play together. C'mon son Exactly...

sasaint

11-26-2015, 08:11 PM

I'm not surprised that the numbers back up what I thought, which is that they've been surprising passable together defensively so far. I know it's limited sample size and weak competition, but still.

Fourth big is not nearly the issue fourth wing is, particularly with Pop's recent penchant for going away from Diaw as the small ball PF and playing small ball, which obviously opens up more wing minutes. It's difficult enough to cover the wing minutes playing traditional; the current trend only exacerbates that.

BINGO!!! I like both Kyle and Rasual in the right spot, but both are really tweeners. The lack of somebody who can spell our three wings (especially playing meaningful minutes when Manu rests - or NEEDS to rest) will be our downfall. We need a guy who is capable of ultimately taking Manu's minutes entirely next season, but we need him now. Perhaps we can get a fire sale deal at the trade deadline from a tanking team.

TrainOfThought5

11-26-2015, 09:35 PM

I can't speak for everyone else, but I like him because he's a center and he can play. I prefer centers playing the center position in the NBA.

I think we're old fashioned.... truly a dying breed among the draymond Green centers of the NBA.

mookie2001

11-26-2015, 10:09 PM

Patty Mills is the Jerrod Heard of point guards.

Uriel

11-27-2015, 07:35 AM

This. Since beating GS is the only way to win a title this year, I think Diaw/Aldridge offensively would be a bigger threat than Aldridge/Splitter.
With so much size, length, and lateral quickness, Aldridge / Splitter would've been a juggernaut defensively, though.

benefactor

11-27-2015, 07:39 AM

Lol complaining about being 12-3 with a bunch of new pieces learning to play together. C'mon son
Well you can never accuse this place of lacking consistency.:lol

Obstructed_View

11-28-2015, 04:17 AM

Well you can never accuse this place of lacking consistency.:lol

What I find odd is people coming to a message board for a sports team and being surprised that people are talking about the team.

rmt

11-28-2015, 06:03 AM

This. Since beating GS is the only way to win a title this year, I think Diaw/Aldridge offensively would be a bigger threat than Aldridge/Splitter.

This. Diaw is very valuable especially against small ball. He can post up anyone they put at PF - probably even center (Draymond). The problem will be how much do you play Duncan and LMA against their small ball.

UNT Eagles 2016

05-30-2016, 12:49 AM

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand another victory for the millennial messiah. Short bus crew taking Ls from me all season long :lol

D-Worst and Croissant's rebounding effort in the second unit against Kanter/Adams et al. might have been the difference between winning in 5 and losing in 6. :lol

Kawhitstorm

05-30-2016, 01:09 AM

D-Worst and Croissant's rebounding effort in the second unit against Kanter/Adams et al. might have been the difference between winning in 5 and losing in 6. :lol

I called that shyt during the season opener: http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=253511&page=59&p=8607847#post8607847

:wakeup

Snaq O'Meal

05-30-2016, 01:26 AM

Pop has a fetish for "turd tower" lineups. Nothing fans can do except to put up with his stubbornness.

Sean Cagney

05-30-2016, 03:17 AM

Good job to Kawhi and OP, you both did call it.. Cot damn it was the reincarnation of the TURD towers.

UNT Eagles 2016

05-30-2016, 03:28 AM

Good job to Kawhi and OP, you both did call it.. Cot damn it was the reincarnation of the TURD towers.

At least Bonner/Blair did a decent job on the defensive glass against Zbo/Gasol, even if there weren't many defensive rebounds to be had. Worst/FatBo just got skullfucked time and time again.