Spurs Game Grades - Game #15 Mavs @ Spurs -- 11/25/15

[Cry Havoc]

Venue - AT&T Center

November 26th, 2015
Mavs 9-6 @ Spurs 11-3

Synopsis

In what turned out to be an ugly (from an offensive standpoint), slow paced game, the Spurs ground out a victory over the surprising Dallas Mavericks. The Mavericks were a consensus pick to miss the playoffs at the beginning of the season, but coming into the Nov 25th contest were in a surprising 4th place in the conference at 9-6. Despite the failings of the Rockets and Clippers, the Mavs have been a solid team thus far in the season, with wins over Boston and the aforementioned Rockets. With Wes Matthews regaining health, the Mavs might push for a playoff spot this season. In this game however, the Spurs put the clamps on early and often. Swarming hands and quick on-ball defense was the highlight of the game for the Spurs, punctuated by 21 Maverick turnovers. Several times the Spurs pulled away a bit and it felt that they would drop the hammer, but that moment never came, as the Mavs scraped back from deficits of 12, 11, and 12 in the first three quarters to really make a game of it in the 4th, where the largest lead for the Spurs was 6 points early on. However, the defense stayed tough, and the Spurs pulled out a win, notching their 12th of the season in just 15 games. For those of you keeping score, that equates to a ~65/66 win pace. Not bad, regardless of the easy schedule early on.


Result: :flag: Spurs win 88-83 :flag:


Player of the Game

http://i.imgur.com/9DZrDrE.jpg

It's basically a foregone conclusion at this point. Kawhi Leonard continues to amaze at both ends of the court. There is not a better defender in the world at any position, and tonight Kawhi was the most potent weapon the Spurs had -- on offense as well as defense. His defensive rotations onto whoever the Mavs tried to get a switch were very well timed, and his hands were always coming to assist in bottling up ball handlers. Kawhi is learning as a player when to commit to attacking the ball, and it's showing up as the year progresses. Additionally, he had an efficient day on offense as well -- going 9-16 from the field. More notable is the fact that Leonard is honing his 3 point stroke, as his 4-7 mark from beyond the arc can attest to tonight. Chip in 8 boards, 5 dimes and a couple of steals (with several deflections and shot alterations) and you have a complete performance from the reigning DPOY. Grade A performance from Kawhi, as he did it all tonight, including this clutch 3 (https://streamable.com/wwne) to drop the hammer on any ideas Dallas had about a win in our building.


http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Dallas+Mavericks+v+San+Antonio+Spurs+Game+FKjAI0L1 xY_l.jpg

Tony Parker: A

Tony had one of his best games of the season on both sides of the court. Let’s get the negative out of the way: He did get burned a few times on D. However, aside from that, Parker was doing everything right in this game. His ball movement was excellent, if he was dribbling he was in attack mode, and his shot was hitting whenever he pulled up or went to the rack. This is exactly the kind of play the Spurs need if they want a shot at dethroning the Warriors this season. Parker shot 7-11 to go for 16 points, but he also had 8 assists and a season high 8 rebounds as well, just missing a triple double. He seemed to get to the tin whenever he felt like it. What’s more, his defense was energetic and pesky, he was consistently fighting through screens and chasing his man, which paid off nicely with some altered shots on the recovery.


http://a2.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=%2Fphoto%2F2015%2F1030%2Fr21431_1296x729_16-9.jpg&w=570

LaMarcus Aldridge: A-

There was a lot to love about Aldridge's performance tonight. On offense, LMA did a find job of picking his spots to contribute, and he was 2nd among all scorers with 18. He seemed to move much better off the ball tonight and didn't appear to clog the lane unnecessarily at any point in his 34+ minutes on the floor. On defense, the story gets even better: Aldridge hustled constantly and wasn't hesitant to collapse on the ball when a move to the hoop was being made. His defense on switches was generally excellent and he was constantly giving Dallas fits by filling up the lane and forcing them to work for points. Easily one of his better defensive nights, and the frontcourt of the Spurs was absolutely crushing to the Mavs, who never seemed to find any sort of rhythm on offense (aside from Devin Harris, who needs to be reminded that this isn't 2013 anymore). Good signs from LMA, if his shot gets a little more consistent, our starting 5 could be very scary indeed.


http://thesportsfanjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/danny-green-san-antonio-spurs.jpg

Danny Green: C

I firmly believe that at some point, be it 20 or 60 days down the road, we'll look back at this time of the season and think, "Man, how could we have ever doubted him?" But the simple fact is that Danny Green's shot is not falling right now. It's not consistent, and unless he's wide open, it's probably not going to go down. That's a pretty big problem, because if you have a 3 & D guy who's only shooting.... 32.... percent (really? Ouch.) from beyond the arc, it just leaves his D. Which, thankfully, was great tonight. He was constantly all over the place, be it guarding Deron Williams and his, let's call it "stocky" frame, or crashing into the paint to swipe at Dirk or Zaza, Green still made himself into a pest. It's just a pity that his shot wasn't on yet again tonight, because this game could have been put away in the 3rd quarter with some of the looks he had.


https://therealsarr.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/tim-duncan1.jpg

Tim Duncan: Uhhhhh... B-?

Want to explore an exercise in frustration? Try to grade The Forever Man this season. It's tough, let me tell you. Tim Duncan's ego simply does not need to be fed by constantly giving him the ball. Tonight, his desire to score took a back seat to the triple-combo of Tony, Kawhi, and LaMarcus, who all shot well for the game, and he was an all-around badass on defense (nothing new). Duncan led all Spurs with 9 boards, and despite only scoring 2 points, the team just looked more stable with Tim on the court. 2 points in 4 shots might be far from ideal, but on a night when other players were hitting, I think Duncan was content to let them take the reins. With Aldridge, Kawhi, and Green, the Spurs trot out 4 players on D who are all very, very good defensively. As much as they might struggle on offense at times, defensively they are absolutely fantastic to watch. Duncan, at age 39 with a level 5 wizard beard, is still the anchor of the best defense in the NBA.


http://www.48minutesofhell.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/phpcL9N22_thumb_manu1.jpg

Manu Ginobili: D+

Given the level of play up to this point in the season (at one point, Manu was 6th overall in PER for the entire league), I'm willing to give Manu a mini-pass on this game, but the long and short of it was that he just wasn't great. Anytime a player has more turnovers (4) than made shots (2), you know it's a night that they were struggling to find the rhythm. And credit Dallas for aggressively attacking Manu before he could setup the offense and then pick them apart as he does with so many teams. It's easy to see why Carlisle is such a fantastic coach -- he knows how to take opposing players out of their comfort zones, and he did that quite well with Manu tonight, who was just 2-12 from the field. Still, Manu is moving very well and his energy level was good for most of the night in the 28 minutes he was on the court. More good things to come this season from Manu.


http://i.cdn.turner.com/drp/nba/spurs/sites/default/files/styles/main_gallery_photo__480_tall/public/legacy/photos/131016_1.jpg?itok=AV46bPrW

Patty Mills: D+

Eesh. Patty simply tried to do too much on the court tonight. His ball handling wasn't the best, his shot wasn't falling, and he got burned repeatedly on defense. It's not uncommon for Patty to occasional give up buckets on D, but he's usually not a turnstile on D, as was the case tonight. He did stay active and energetic, which keeps his grade from being lower, as did his two steals on D, but the Spurs bench as a collective unit was stagnant on O tonight and not very strong defensively.


https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xaf1/t51.2885-15/s320x320/e15/11376457_1681435818755063_618285411_n.jpg

David West: B

Little by little, I'm coming around to the things that West is bringing to his game with the Spurs. He only played 11:39 tonight, but he was far and away the best player off the bench for the Spurs. He knocked down all 3 shots he took, and hauled in a couple of rebounds as well. Had a few more shots fallen from other players to push the lead, I think West would have gotten 20+ minutes, but unfortunately the game stayed close, so Pop left Kawhi and LMA in for most of the game. West seems to be finding his role in the system and picking his spots better on offense. Defense seems to be improving as well, although he still seems perhaps a half step slow on that side of the court. Whatever. He's still better than Bonner. :lol


http://i.imgur.com/YcceUc7.jpg

Boris Diaw: C+

I was actually a little disappointed that we didn't see more Boris tonight. As soon as he stepped on the court, he started fighting for rebounds and won a scrum over 3 Maverick players. Yet in 10 minutes Boris failed to score, and I think Pop felt that our offense needed more speed on this night, so Boris didn't get much PT. A bit alarming really, as in the past 3 games Boris has averaged just under 12 minutes per and only has two points in that same time span. Is he on his way to Pop's doghouse, or is Pop just trying to distribute the minutes around? Either way, some worrying signs for our favorite croissant lover.


Rasual Butler & Kyle Anderson: INC

Butler played just 6 minutes and looked all sorts of discombobulated out there, and Anderson didn't even get 2 minutes of game time, which is somewhat disappointing. I swear I saw Ray swap in for a few seconds in the 2nd Quarter as well he isn't listed in the game minutes. Either way, not much to talk about here.


Offense: D+

The raw numbers look okay, particularly from our big 3 in scoring, but we gotta find ways to put more than 88 points up on Dallas when they're on a SEGABABA. The bench in particular didn't seem capable of scoring at all tonight, perhaps another testament to the disruptive defense that Carlisle plays.


Defense: A

I thought there were some lapses that allowed the Mavs to get back into the game, but overall we held a fairly potent Mavs lineup down enough that Carlisle actually put in Charlie Villanueva in for 12 minutes of game time, which is the most he's played since November 14th in a fairly dominant win over Houston. Devin Harris continues to be the Spurs' bane, but he also fouled out in just 16 minutes of really chippy play. Overall though, the rotations are vastly improved, at least for the starters, and everything seems to be coming together quite nicely.


http://cdn4.everyjoe.com/wp-content/gallery/young-pop/young-gregg-popovich-picture-2.jpg

Gregg Popovich: A-

Loving the fact that Pop played Kawhi 40 minutes, realizing that the youngster was hot and we needed him on both sides of the court. Pop let his guys really attack on defense tonight, and it paid off as Dallas's ball movement was completely cut off at several points. You could see Dwight Powell in particular looking extremely frustrated and confused by the constant motion of the Spurs hands and feet, and he coughed it up a couple of times immediately after coming into the game. I would have liked to see more David West on a night when we were struggling to get points -- his shot seems to be falling with more frequency as of late. In fact, going back to November 18th, he's 15-22 from the field. Definitely positive signs there. Overall though, another great job by Pop. He has to be pleased with the intensity our starting 5 is playing on defense right now.


Notables:

Dirk Nowitzki became just the 17th player in NBA history to reach 1,600 threes made on Tuesday night against Memphis. Easily the greatest shooting big of all time, although KD might want to say something about that in a few years.

JJ Barea left the game with what appeared to be a badly sprained ankle that occurred far from the play and with no contact -- he just stepped on it wrong and went down hard. From personal experience, I can tell that he'll probably miss several games, as he had to be helped off the court and went straight to the locker room in a good deal of pain.

Chandler Parsons was a DNP for the game, meanwhile Wesley Matthews returning from a season ending injury last year, logged 36 minutes -- the most he has all season.

Check out the Spurs pre-game handshakes:

http://www.gfycat.com/IllfatedReflectingAnteater


Around the league:

Charlotte positively buried the Wizards tonight with a 25-0 run in the 4th quarter.

Jason Kidd was ejected after slapping the ball out of a refs hands in Milwaukee's game against Sacramento.

New Orleans appears to be righting the ship, as they've won 3 in a row to improve to 4-11 on the season, and believe it or not in the West this year that means they are just 3 games out of a playoff spot behind the 7-8 Clippers.


Next up for the Spurs:

They travel to Denver on November 27th to play the Nuggets. Game time 8PM (CT) on Fox Sports Southwest. Afterward they play a pair of very good EC teams, hosting Atlanta and then traveling to Chicago.

[Raven]

what do you mean "how could WE have doubted him"? keep it to yourself.

[Fireball]

Nice grades ... thx.

But what is this about Nowitzki reaching 1,600 points? He has like 28,000 ...

[Robz4000]

Great write-up. IMO, Pop is just limiting Diaw's minutes due to all the minutes he's played the past year or so; doubt he's in the doghouse. As for West, I was more excited about his signing than LMA; dude just has an amazing feel for the game and screams team player. Wasn't all that happy with Pop's coaching tonight (as well as most of the season for that matter), but he played his big guns in Kawhi and LMA big minutes so he didn't completely fuck things up. Manu finally had a terrible game and the Spurs still won (against a good opponent nonetheless), so that's good.

In other news, Carlisle is the best coach in the NBA; guy turns shit into gold on the regular.

[Cry Havoc]

what do you mean "how could WE have doubted him"? keep it to yourself.

I don't doubt him as a player, but I do worry about his shot when it goes up. That's all. I'm sure he'll get his stroke back, it's just not falling right now.


Nice grades ... thx.

But what is this about Nowitzki reaching 1,600 points? He has like 28,000 ...

Ha, I figured I'd botch something. Dirk hit 1,600 3 pointers made. Edited it in there, thanks for the heads-up. :bobo

[Cry Havoc]

Great write-up. IMO, Pop is just limiting Diaw's minutes due to all the minutes he's played the past year or so; doubt he's in the doghouse. As for West, I was more excited about his signing than LMA; dude just has an amazing feel for the game and screams team player. Wasn't all that happy with Pop's coaching tonight (as well as most of the season for that matter), but he played his big guns in Kawhi and LMA big minutes so he didn't completely fuck things up. Manu finally had a terrible game and the Spurs still won (against a good opponent nonetheless), so that's good.

In other news, Carlisle is the best coach in the NBA; guy turns shit into gold on the regular.

Thanks. :tu I tried to add some more info tonight and focus on individual situations I saw in the game, as well as other categories, so far I'm pleased with the presentation.

Carlisle is definitely the best coach in the league outside of Pop.

[Silver&Black]

http://i.imgur.com/FEl24FW.pngAscending


Thanks for the grades...

[Fireball]

Ha, I figured I'd botch something. Dirk hit 1,600 3 pointers made. Edited it in there, thanks for the heads-up.

That makes more sense! Quite an accomplishment for a 7 foot guy. Him and Tony looked done in Eurobasket but have recovered nicely within the comfort zone of their NBA teams ..

[Chinook]

Again, Kawhi was REALLY bad on D for his standards. He kept losing his man or got burned by gambling. Don't let Matthews' percentage fool you into think Kawhi shut down another SF. Obviously, Leonard was unreal offensively. But he didn't carry his load on the other end of the floor.

[Obstructed_View]

Lamarcus was looking pretty good right up to the point that he turned his ankle. Glad to hear that it wan't a fluke.

[SpursIndonesia]

Again, Kawhi was REALLY bad on D for his standards. He kept losing his man or got burned by gambling. Don't let Matthews' percentage fool you into think Kawhi shut down another SF. Obviously, Leonard was unreal offensively. But he didn't carry his load on the other end of the floor.

I have the same observation, Kawhi's offense was great last night, but defensively he seemed forcing the issue too much, trying to generate easy baskets through steals.

[dabom]

Best defensive player out there. Good shit Kawhi. 40 mins the whole game and held the mavs to 83 points. :lmao

[TXstbobcat]

Thank you for the game grades.

[daledondale]

Thank you for the game grades.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

Great writeup.
Nice pics :lol


How much true stock do we put into this game with the Mavericks missing Parsons?

[bigfan]

thanks for the writeup, keep it up

[GSH]

Just a fantastic write-up. Great format with pics. Professional level stuff.

Forever Man... I love it. They need to start using the Clapton song as his theme song. He really is timeless.

[loveforthegame]

Thanks. Fun write up and observations. :tu

[spurs10]

Thank you for the grades! Will read slower after the feast...for now Happy Thanskgiving to all Spurs related people! :bobo

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

Patty is quickly becoming one of my least favorite all time spurs

[Cry Havoc]

Again, Kawhi was REALLY bad on D for his standards. He kept losing his man or got burned by gambling. Don't let Matthews' percentage fool you into think Kawhi shut down another SF. Obviously, Leonard was unreal offensively. But he didn't carry his load on the other end of the floor.

He had some bright spots though. Overall that starting unit were a 5 man wrecking crew last night on D.

[Thunder1]

Much thanks for the write-up & grades....

[sasaint]

Again, Kawhi was REALLY bad on D for his standards. He kept losing his man or got burned by gambling. Don't let Matthews' percentage fool you into think Kawhi shut down another SF. Obviously, Leonard was unreal offensively. But he didn't carry his load on the other end of the floor.

Although Kawhi is capable of wreaking havoc on D, this was not the only game this season when his effort seemed spotty, a little lackadaisical at times. On the other hand his down rotation and steal of a pass intended for Zaza in the lane when the Mavs were making a run in the 4th was a big moment. I think it is simply a matter of energy. The guy has a certain amount of it. In past years he expended most of it on the defensive end. But now that we rely on him to be a big scorer, he expends more on the offensive end and simply doesn't have it to expend on D at the same level he has in the past. Plus, his minutes are up significantly.

[Blue Duck]

Couldn't watch, had to listen on WOAI, which is exciting but yoy miss allot. A well done, thorough write up such as this one, as always, is greatly appreciated. Hope to see the bench guys get their mojo back in Denver.

[sasaint]

Venue - AT&T Center

November 26th, 2015
Mavs 9-6 @ Spurs 11-3

Gregg Popovich: A-

Loving the fact that Pop played Kawhi 40 minutes, realizing that the youngster was hot and we needed him on both sides of the court. Pop let his guys really attack on defense tonight, and it paid off as Dallas's ball movement was completely cut off at several points. You could see Dwight Powell in particular looking extremely frustrated and confused by the constant motion of the Spurs hands and feet, and he coughed it up a couple of times immediately after coming into the game. I would have liked to see more David West on a night when we were struggling to get points -- his shot seems to be falling with more frequency as of late. In fact, going back to November 18th, he's 15-22 from the field. Definitely positive signs there. Overall though, another great job by Pop. He has to be pleased with the intensity our starting 5 is playing on defense right now.

Excellent presentation. Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort. For the most part, my eyes saw performances that match your grades. But I cannot agree with your assessment of Pop. Carlisle nearly beat Pop on the back end of a BtoB on our home court. I thought Pop failed to force Carlisle's hand at any point in the game, and he failed to respond well to Carlisle's moves. You may love the fact that Pop played Kawhi for 40 minutes, but I was very sorry to see it. And playing an absolutely dead Manu for 28 minutes almost cost us the game. Over-playing Manu like this will kill both him and the Spurs in the long run. And it ain't gonna do Kawhi any good by the playoffs, either. Pop as Thibs earns a D from me.

[ILoveOranges]

Excellent presentation. Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort. For the most part, my eyes saw performances that match your grades. But I cannot agree with your assessment of Pop. Carlisle nearly beat Pop on the back end of a BtoB on our home court. I thought Pop failed to force Carlisle's hand at any point in the game, and he failed to respond well to Carlisle's moves. You may love the fact that Pop played Kawhi for 40 minutes, but I was very sorry to see it. And playing an absolutely dead Manu for 28 minutes almost cost us the game. Over-playing Manu like this will kill both him and the Spurs in the long run. And it ain't gonna do Kawhi any good by the playoffs, either. Pop as Thibs earns a D from me.

I think Pop really treated this game like a playoff game, the way he shortened up rotations and made his playmakers play big minutes. I doubt Kawhi will always play 40 minutes and Ginobili 28 during the playoffs, I just think Pop really wanted to win this one and couldn't count on Anderson, Butler to not make mistakes at this point.

[sasaint]

I think Pop really treated this game like a playoff game, the way he shortened up rotations and made his playmakers play big minutes. I doubt Kawhi will always play 40 minutes and Ginobili 28 during the playoffs, I just think Pop really wanted to win this one and couldn't count on Anderson, Butler to not make mistakes at this point.

Then we have big problems if Pop is treating an early season game against a so-so, rebuilt Mavs team as a Playoff Game! How much less reliable than Manu could Anderson and/or Butler have been last night? And when Manu is clearly off and a detriment why play him MORE than his average? And what about Patty? Ray McCallum was supposed to be better than CoJo, yet he might as well be in Austin.

I think Pop was asleep at the wheel last night. Numerous ST posters made the comment in the game thread that the Spurs failed to exploit advantageous mismatches all night. An alarming game.

[TDfan2007]

Appreciate the writeup, man. Really nice job. I'm gonna have to disagree about Kawhi's D though. I thought he got lost quite a bit, and even got backdoored.

As for Mills, this season has been really rough for him defensively. He's been a glaring weak link since the rest of our team has been so solid on that end.

[RD2191]

OP is a faggot. I appreciate the writeup though.

[Cry Havoc]

Then we have big problems if Pop is treating an early season game against a so-so, rebuilt Mavs team as a Playoff Game! How much less reliable than Manu could Anderson and/or Butler have been last night? And when Manu is clearly off and a detriment why play him MORE than his average? And what about Patty? Ray McCallum was supposed to be better than CoJo, yet he might as well be in Austin.

I think Pop was asleep at the wheel last night. Numerous ST posters made the comment in the game thread that the Spurs failed to exploit advantageous mismatches all night. An alarming game.

Well, Kawhi is 24. Playing him 40 minutes a few times a season isn't bad, and in fact will probably help acclimate him to the playoffs when he's much more likely to go for 38+.

Additionally, we are definitely in trouble if Green AND Manu AND Patty are ice cold from the field in the playoffs. Had they hit ANYTHING (combined 5-28), the game gets out of reach for Dallas in the 3rd quarter, if not the 2nd. That would have eased the pressure and we could have sat Kawhi and Manu much earlier. We had a ton of wide open looks from 3, and they just didn't hit.


Appreciate the writeup, man. Really nice job. I'm gonna have to disagree about Kawhi's D though. I thought he got lost quite a bit, and even got backdoored.

As for Mills, this season has been really rough for him defensively. He's been a glaring weak link since the rest of our team has been so solid on that end.

Maybe true for Kawhi, but overall the starting 5 were so fantastic it was hard to be displeased with the effort. I saw Kawhi playing a lot of team D in this game rather than individual D, which can be good on nights when Parker/Mills can't stay in front of their man. Certainly not his best night on that side of the floor, but I still saw growth there in his knowledge of when to hard commit into the post or out on doubles.

[SAGirl]

Thank you for your grades Cry Havoc. You have a witty and smart writing style and I like your insight on basketball.

Many things I agree with except on Pop. It's a win, but Pop didn't make adjustments when our bench was struggling, and I think he overplayed Manu. Almost 29 minutes in his worst game of the season. Kawhi was sensational in this game and crucial, since the bench play was awful last night (save D.West, who I like and I agree with you, despite the fact he's not a center and is played out of position, he competes. You can't help but like him, he was great in this game).

But the point is we are not playing a full season Kawhi 41 minutes. It will wear him down, with the burden he's carrying already, and these teams were not even full strength. Mavs are well coached, but they are old, have some marginal guys, some rejects, some injured guys, JJ Barea got injured, D. Harris got fouled out. It was a close game that we could have lost.

I definitely didn't think Pop made good adjustments through the game. He could have played Kyle for 5 minutes to reduce Manu or Kawhi's load. Kyle has played well enough recently, to give either guy a breather for a few minutes. Pop could have subbed Ray for a few minutes too since Patty was awful on both ends for long stretches.

Just in general, I thought Pop rode his stars in this game, and thankfully for us it paid off. For the long haul, that makes us vulnerable if one of them is off, injured, resting, in foul trouble, etc. One of our best assets is that we were not a top heavy team. We have the great stars, but distribute the burden enough through the season to win, and at the same time reach the destination fresh and healthy.

Just in general, I think Pop is right around the time of the season when he should be trying to get more out of the younger guys in our bench (before we get to the January tough games and the stretch when Pop starts to get guys ready for the post season, and cuts out the early season experiments).

I thought Danny disappointed on the O end, bc he's not making good decisions when putting the ball on the floor, so when his shot is not falling, offensively he doesn't offer much. But that is a work in progress, and Pop is likely to let him work through this right now to see if he can grow offensively a little bit.

[sasaint]

Cry Havoc, Kawhi may be 24, but he'll be 28 next season playing 40 minutes/game. The point is, if he has to play 40 minutes a game it had better be against OKC, GS, Cleveland - even the Clips - NOT a rebuilt, middle-of-the-pack team like the Mavs. The closer Kawhi is to 30 minutes, the better for the team. It keeps him fresher, and it means that we have other players who can step in and perform. We will not have those players without giving them some time. Hey, we had double digit leads on three occasions, and Patty and Manu were both terrible; give some other guys some burn. Secondly, Pop just failed to make any adjustments to maximize advantages when we had them. I also have to correct your assertion that our starting five were fantastic. Maybe 4 out of 5. By your own grades, Danny was AWOL again.

We don't need to get Kawhi acclimated to the playoffs in November.

[SAGirl]

Excellent presentation. Thanks for taking the time and putting forth the effort. For the most part, my eyes saw performances that match your grades. But I cannot agree with your assessment of Pop. Carlisle nearly beat Pop on the back end of a BtoB on our home court. I thought Pop failed to force Carlisle's hand at any point in the game, and he failed to respond well to Carlisle's moves. You may love the fact that Pop played Kawhi for 40 minutes, but I was very sorry to see it. And playing an absolutely dead Manu for 28 minutes almost cost us the game. Over-playing Manu like this will kill both him and the Spurs in the long run. And it ain't gonna do Kawhi any good by the playoffs, either. Pop as Thibs earns a D from me.
Agree with you sasaint. I would also give Pop a D here (not an F, bc we won, but had Kawhi not made that big 3, and closed this out, it could easily have been an F for Pop last night).

I thought Carlisle with a less talented crew, who by the way, also is old, lacking chemistry, having guys injured, having guys coming in as rejects from other teams, marginal players, guys getting injured in the game (JJ) or fouling out (Harris) did more with less, and yes almost stole this game in our home court.

I do think Carlisle is on par with Pop as a coach. Pop has just had the HoF players (3) and the beast that is Kawhi (possibly a 4th HoF player if he continues on his current trajectory). Carlisle has just Dirk in the back end of his career and a motley crew. lol

[sasaint]

Agree with you sasaint. I would also give Pop a D here (not an F, bc we won, but had Kawhi not made that big 3, and closed this out, it could easily have been an F for Pop last night).

I thought Carlisle with a less talented crew, who by the way, also is old, lacking chemistry, having guys injured, having guys coming in as rejects from other teams, marginal players, guys getting injured in the game (JJ) or fouling out (Harris) did more with less, and yes almost stole this game in our home court.

I do think Carlisle is on par with Pop as a coach. Pop has just had the HoF players (3) and the beast that is Kawhi (possibly a 4th HoF player if he continues on his current trajectory). Carlisle has just Dirk in the back end of his career and a motley crew. lol

Call me a heretic, but I wonder whether Carlisle isn't, in fact, better at this point - exactly for the reasons you cite. Year in and year out Carlisle has Dirk and ?. Yet he has them competing and in the playoffs. By contrast, it is axiomatic that it takes a year (at least) for new players to adjust to Pop's system. (Hopefully this year is the exception!) In the last few years I have sometimes wondered what Carlisle might have accomplished had he been in Pop's position.

[SAGirl]

Call me a heretic, but I wonder whether Carlisle isn't, in fact, better at this point - exactly for the reasons you cite. Year in and year out Carlisle has Dirk and ?. Yet he has them competing and in the playoffs. By contrast, it is axiomatic that it takes a year (at least) for new players to adjust to Pop's system. (Hopefully this year is the exception!) In the last few years I have sometimes wondered what Carlisle might have accomplished had he been in Pop's position.
I will point out too, Carlisle played his guys. We saw his rookie get play time. We saw Powell, a second or third year player with as little experience as our own young guys. We saw Mcgee come in with a lot of energy, about the role you would want from him, a guy Pop would never play. Carlisle does seem to get the best out of everyone and put them in positions to succeed. Pop? Not so much last game. I dont think hes getting the most out of any of the new guys.

In fact, since we are getting sacrilegous here, I don't think the reason guys take a long time to integrate to the Spurs is them necessarily. I think it takes Pop a long time to integrate guys himself. He likes to watch what they do and what not, then figure out what to do. Sometimes it takes him a full season.

Do you think he knows how to use Kyle? He said he would have him play several positions through the season. Answer: He doesn't know. He's going to watch what he does, and see what he comes up with.

Heck, Becky showed me she has coaching chops with that SL roster she took to a championship in something like two weeks. You don't have a full year to figure out what to do with guys in those situations.

I think it is Pop who takes a long time to figure out what to do with guys. He took a long time to figure out how to feature Kawhi, lets be honest.

As for last night, a younger Dirk would have buried us.

[sasaint]

I will point out too, Carlisle played his guys. We saw his rookie get play time. We saw Powell, a second or third year player with as little experience as our own young guys. We saw Mcgee come in with a lot of energy, about the role you would want from him, a guy Pop would never play. Carlisle does seem to get the best out of everyone and put them in positions to succeed. Pop? Not so much last game. I dont think hes getting the most out of any of the new guys.

In fact, since we are getting sacrilegous here, I don't think the reason guys take a long time to integrate to the Spurs is them necessarily. I think it takes Pop a long time to integrate guys himself. He likes to watch what they do and what not, then figure out what to do. Sometimes it takes him a full season.

Do you think he knows how to use Kyle? He said he would have him play several positions through the season. Answer: He doesn't know. He's going to watch what he does, and see what he comes up with.

Heck, Becky showed me she has coaching chops with that SL roster she took to a championship in something like two weeks. You don't have a full year to figure out what to do with guys in those situations.

I think it is Pop who takes a long time to figure out what to do with guys. He took a long time to figure out how to feature Kawhi, lets be honest.

As for last night, a younger Dirk would have buried us.

:wakeup Well, if I get excommunicated at least I won't be alone! :lol

Is it a trust issue with Pop, or is it his lengthy evaluation process? To be fair, maybe it is a function of our always getting players with unorthodox/unusual skill sets that take more time to evaluate as well as develop. Look at our draft picks. Those guys are ALWAYS tweeners or "flawed" in some way because we are always drafting in the last 4th or 5th spot (at best). Until LMA we never opened up the purse for free agents, so we typically sign reclamation/development projects. Just seems that no matter the avenue, the way we acquire new players doesn't ever result in our getting "ready-made" performers at a specific, typically-defined position - again, excepting LMA and a couple of aging ring-chasers through the years.

[SAGirl]

:wakeup Well, if I get excommunicated at least I won't be alone! :lol

Is it a trust issue with Pop, or is it his lengthy evaluation process? To be fair, maybe it is a function of our always getting players with unorthodox/unusual skill sets that take more time to evaluate as well as develop. Look at our draft picks. Those guys are ALWAYS tweeners or "flawed" in some way because we are always drafting in the last 4th or 5th spot (at best). Until LMA we never opened up the purse for free agents, so we typically sign reclamation/development projects. Just seems that no matter the avenue, the way we acquire new players doesn't ever result in our getting "ready-made" performers at a specific, typically-defined position - again, excepting LMA and a couple of aging ring-chasers through the years.
You could argue that neither does Carlisle (in terms of getting all the really spectacular potential lottery talent in the draft all these years). In fact, Mavs ignored the draft until recently and their management went a completely different way. I just admire Carlisle ability to really get the most out of whatever ingredients he has, in the middle of lack of continuity and attrition. Pop has not ever done that, since he has like I said the stars, and he has notoriously been slow to integrate guys, or figure out how to use them.

Let's not forget Timmy was a supreme talent that came ready made, Manu was already an accomplished player and something like 25. Tony was very young and might be Pop's best coaching job until Kawhi, and still Tony's game relied on his speed, and he had that god-given talent since he came in. One thing Tony could do, was "get to the hole" as they say.

Still, Pop admits it took him time, a couple years even to let Manu be Manu and to really understand how to get the best out of Manu. They fought a whole lot and Pop attempted to restrain Manu too much. Of the big 3, Manu is the one Pop never got a mold for. That just tells you Manu came ready made. Messina (or Manu's early coaches) probably had more to do with his molding.

Pop also admitted he didn't know how to use Diaw when he came in. We could infer, its in part the reason why Diaw disappeared on us his first or second season here, and went passive or AWOL when we could have used him. It's on Diaw that he is as chilled as he is, but its on the coach to figure out how to squeeze the best of Diaw and Pop did not figure Diaw out until Diaw went to the Euro, owned everyone and their mothers, dethroned Spain, captained Les Bleus and came back with a fire that Pop said: "you know what? You now have to do that for me too!!!!" :bobo (Sidenote: I read a story where Pop asked Tony how to use Diaw better, and Tony was the one who told Pop that up until that point they never called post up plays for Boris, and yet Boris is a very good post up player).

Pop has always had the defensive coaching stuff, that is his best. But I daresay he's not the best at figuring out guys offensively or how to integrate them/feature them. I brought up Kawhi, since it took Pop until this season to really feature him and let him shine consistently. He's still growing and evolving and stuff, but it took a long time to get to this level. Look at Paul George in Indiana, there sooner.

The younger guys, possibly the lack of trust stems obviously from the unexpected performance of young players, but also because they are evolving and growing, and unlike the veterans, they are not finished products and you don't yet know what they will do well.

Pop's a winning coach and I admire him intensely, but I do think he's slow to learn how to feature and integrate guys. Lamarcus right now not the exception.

[sasaint]

You could argue that neither does Carlisle (in terms of getting all the really spectacular potential lottery talent in the draft all these years). In fact, Mavs ignored the draft until recently and their management went a completely different way. I just admire Carlisle ability to really get the most out of whatever ingredients he has, in the middle of lack of continuity and attrition. Pop has not ever done that, since he has like I said the stars, and he has notoriously been slow to integrate guys, or figure out how to use them.

Let's not forget Timmy was a supreme talent that came ready made, Manu was already an accomplished player and something like 25. Tony was very young and might be Pop's best coaching job until Kawhi, and still Tony's game relied on his speed, and he had that god-given talent since he came in. One thing Tony could do, was "get to the hole" as they say.

Still, Pop admits it took him time, a couple years even to let Manu be Manu and to really understand how to get the best out of Manu. They fought a whole lot and Pop attempted to restrain Manu too much. Of the big 3, Manu is the one Pop never got a mold for. That just tells you Manu came ready made. Messina (or Manu's early coaches) probably had more to do with his molding.

Pop also admitted he didn't know how to use Diaw when he came in. We could infer, its in part the reason why Diaw disappeared on us his first or second season here, and went passive or AWOL when we could have used him. It's on Diaw that he is as chilled as he is, but its on the coach to figure out how to squeeze the best of Diaw and Pop did not figure Diaw out until Diaw went to the Euro, owned everyone and their mothers, dethroned Spain, captained Les Bleus and came back with a fire that Pop said: "you know what? You now have to do that for me too!!!!" :bobo (Sidenote: I read a story where Pop asked Tony how to use Diaw better, and Tony was the one who told Pop that up until that point they never called post up plays for Boris, and yet Boris is a very good post up player).

Pop has always had the defensive coaching stuff, that is his best. But I daresay he's not the best at figuring out guys offensively or how to integrate them/feature them. I brought up Kawhi, since it took Pop until this season to really feature him and let him shine consistently. He's still growing and evolving and stuff, but it took a long time to get to this level. Look at Paul George in Indiana, there sooner.

The younger guys, possibly the lack of trust stems obviously from the unexpected performance of young players, but also because they are evolving and growing, and unlike the veterans, they are not finished products and you don't yet know what they will do well.

Pop's a winning coach and I admire him intensely, but I do think he's slow to learn how to feature and integrate guys. Lamarcus right now not the exception.

Very good takes. True, the Mavs have placed even less emphasis on the draft than the Spurs. But their approach to free agency has been different. Cuban has not been averse to paying pretty good money for free agents. Dallas has always been a more glamorous destination for FAs, but the Mavs have also been willing to sign guys without the focus on locker room presence that typifies the Spurs' approach. Can't imagine that PATFO would ever consider signing Monta Ellis, for example. Although signing Monta turned out to not be a great long-term move, it is another tribute to Carlisle that he got as much out of the guy as he did before things kind of went south. So, being willing to open the purse for FAs while overlooking some personality/character issues has enabled the Mavs to reload with better free agents, on average, but they haven't won a ring with that approach. I'm not really trying to make a point, just kind of chatting instead of napping after turkey dinner. :blah

I have never heard that anecdote about Tony's giving Pop a pointer on Boris. :lol Thanks.

[SAGirl]

Very good takes. True, the Mavs have placed even less emphasis on the draft than the Spurs. But their approach to free agency has been different. Cuban has not been averse to paying pretty good money for free agents. Dallas has always been a more glamorous destination for FAs, but the Mavs have also been willing to sign guys without the focus on locker room presence that typifies the Spurs' approach. Can't imagine that PATFO would ever consider signing Monta Ellis, for example. Although signing Monta turned out to not be a great long-term move, it is another tribute to Carlisle that he got as much out of the guy as he did before things kind of went south. So, being willing to open the purse for FAs while overlooking some personality/character issues has enabled the Mavs to reload with better free agents, on average, but they haven't won a ring with that approach. I'm not really trying to make a point, just kind of chatting instead of napping after turkey dinner. :blah

I have never heard that anecdote about Tony's giving Pop a pointer on Boris. :lol Thanks.
No problem. lol
That is just my general impression of Pop. Coaches that are able to integrate guys midseason or what not (Rockets did that last season for example with a degree of success) always surprise me bc Pop is the other way.

You can't argue with Pop because of his results, but as we started this conversation, he's always had the talent that allowed him to bring guys along slowly, and the continuity. There are more Pop anecdotes, Tiago Splitter is another one. Pop is just very reluctant with any new guys. Here Lamarcus, the first premier agent and well, it's been pretty up and down for Lamarcus. Still we are winning on our defense.

It's been a long sidetrack here, but its interesting to chat about it, because we always admire the coach, but sometimes he does have his quirks, and not using all of his bench, mostly because it is new is a bad quirk. We could have uncovered gems in our bench that won't be uncovered until some critical point in the season or next season.

[TrainOfThought5]

Although Kawhi is capable of wreaking havoc on D, this was not the only game this season when his effort seemed spotty, a little lackadaisical at times. On the other hand his down rotation and steal of a pass intended for Zaza in the lane when the Mavs were making a run in the 4th was a big moment. I think it is simply a matter of energy. The guy has a certain amount of it. In past years he expended most of it on the defensive end. But now that we rely on him to be a big scorer, he expends more on the offensive end and simply doesn't have it to expend on D at the same level he has in the past. Plus, his minutes are up significantly.

He played 40 minutes and carried the offensive load all game including a clutch steal and dagger 3 down the stretch.

What more do you want from him? Serious question.

[sasaint]

No problem. lol
That is just my general impression of Pop. Coaches that are able to integrate guys midseason or what not (Rockets did that last season for example with a degree of success) always surprise me bc Pop is the other way.

You can't argue with Pop because of his results, but as we started this conversation, he's always had the talent that allowed him to bring guys along slowly, and the continuity. There are more Pop anecdotes, Tiago Splitter is another one. Pop is just very reluctant with any new guys. Here Lamarcus, the first premier agent and well, it's been pretty up and down for Lamarcus. Still we are winning on our defense.

It's been a long sidetrack here, but its interesting to chat about it, because we always admire the coach, but sometimes he does have his quirks, and not using all of his bench, mostly because it is new is a bad quirk. We could have uncovered gems in our bench that won't be uncovered until some critical point in the season or next season.

Heck, the Rockets integrated JSmoove and Brewer seamlessly. I was amazed. (Brewer was a guy that I wanted us to get when he came out of Florida.) I am just as amazed at their collapse this year.

Pop definitely has his quirks, and that has cost us some through the years, but overall, as you say, there's no real arguing with his record for success. Besides I like rooting for curmudgeons! :lol

We have drafted and signed a whole bunch of guys that we have subsequently let go who have had pretty long, if not overly successful careers. Beno Udrih, Ian Mahinmi, James Anderson, Cojo, Jamychal Green (?) have been okay for journeymen, but we haven't really missed much. So, it's not like Pop fails to evaluate and develop, but it does seem to take him longer. I just wish he could expedite his process, especially this season. The best ever potential Spur that we let get away was Scola. I do wish we had never given him to the Rockets.

[sasaint]

He played 40 minutes and carried the offensive load all game including a clutch steal and dagger 3 down the stretch.

What more do you want from him? Serious question.

My comments were really limited to his defense. He didn't have the intensity he had last year when he dominated games as a defender like few players in the history of the league. By comparison to those lofty standards, a game that doesn't feature some outstanding steal and dunk or some such seems pretty ordinary. His overall game places him in the top five players on the league to my eyes.

Also, I do not want him having to play 40 minutes for the Spurs to beat the Mavs.

[skulls138]

No problem. lol
That is just my general impression of Pop. Coaches that are able to integrate guys midseason or what not (Rockets did that last season for example with a degree of success) always surprise me bc Pop is the other way.

You can't argue with Pop because of his results, but as we started this conversation, he's always had the talent that allowed him to bring guys along slowly, and the continuity. There are more Pop anecdotes, Tiago Splitter is another one. Pop is just very reluctant with any new guys. Here Lamarcus, the first premier agent and well, it's been pretty up and down for Lamarcus. Still we are winning on our defense.

It's been a long sidetrack here, but its interesting to chat about it, because we always admire the coach, but sometimes he does have his quirks, and not using all of his bench, mostly because it is new is a bad quirk. We could have uncovered gems in our bench that won't be uncovered until some critical point in the season or next season.Its not a bad quirk. The new guys have to get indoctrinated for a year in practice to learn the Spurs way. Also its a form of loyalty and a test of patience. Pops is not going to mess up an already good team with some new guy.

[skulls138]

My comments were really limited to his defense. He didn't have the intensity he had last year when he dominated games as a defender like few players in the history of the league. By comparison to those lofty standards, a game that doesn't feature some outstanding steal and dunk or some such seems pretty ordinary. His overall game places him in the top five players on the league to my eyes.

Also, I do not want him having to play 40 minutes for the Spurs to beat the Mavs.Its absurd to look at the closeness of the score in evaluating the Spurs. For one thing its the Mavs and every rivalry game is going to be close no matter what the talent level is, no matter what the sport. But also to quote the football saying, "any given sunday" meaning theres always a chance a good team could lose to a bad team because there all professional.

[YGWHI]

Thanks for the grades! :toast


Well, Kawhi is 24. Playing him 40 minutes a few times a season isn't bad, and in fact will probably help acclimate him to the playoffs when he's much more likely to go for 38+.

Just like any other player of his age in the league, Kawhi is averaging 34 mpg.

The Spurs weren't in an ideal position in the first games of this season. Acclimating LMA/West to the system, losing several key role players, especially a shooter like Marco, Danny/Boris struggling....Kawhi's playing time seems justified after all.



I saw Kawhi playing a lot of team D in this game rather than individual D, which can be good on nights when Parker/Mills can't stay in front of their man.
Agree. Also, the most overlooked defense by fans here...

[YGWHI]

Pop is just very reluctant with any new guys. Here Lamarcus, the first premier agent and well, it's been pretty up and down for Lamarcus.

In LMA's case, just in the first 3-4 games of the season. He led the team in per-minute attempts in the last games.

Against Dallas, he took more shots playing 6 minutes less than Kawhi who was the 2nd & 3rd FGA per minute in those games.

[Cry Havoc]

Thank you for your grades Cry Havoc. You have a witty and smart writing style and I like your insight on basketball.

Many things I agree with except on Pop. It's a win, but Pop didn't make adjustments when our bench was struggling, and I think he overplayed Manu. Almost 29 minutes in his worst game of the season. Kawhi was sensational in this game and crucial, since the bench play was awful last night (save D.West, who I like and I agree with you, despite the fact he's not a center and is played out of position, he competes. You can't help but like him, he was great in this game).

But the point is we are not playing a full season Kawhi 41 minutes. It will wear him down, with the burden he's carrying already, and these teams were not even full strength. Mavs are well coached, but they are old, have some marginal guys, some rejects, some injured guys, JJ Barea got injured, D. Harris got fouled out. It was a close game that we could have lost.

I definitely didn't think Pop made good adjustments through the game. He could have played Kyle for 5 minutes to reduce Manu or Kawhi's load. Kyle has played well enough recently, to give either guy a breather for a few minutes. Pop could have subbed Ray for a few minutes too since Patty was awful on both ends for long stretches.

Just in general, I thought Pop rode his stars in this game, and thankfully for us it paid off. For the long haul, that makes us vulnerable if one of them is off, injured, resting, in foul trouble, etc. One of our best assets is that we were not a top heavy team. We have the great stars, but distribute the burden enough through the season to win, and at the same time reach the destination fresh and healthy.

Just in general, I think Pop is right around the time of the season when he should be trying to get more out of the younger guys in our bench (before we get to the January tough games and the stretch when Pop starts to get guys ready for the post season, and cuts out the early season experiments).

I thought Danny disappointed on the O end, bc he's not making good decisions when putting the ball on the floor, so when his shot is not falling, offensively he doesn't offer much. But that is a work in progress, and Pop is likely to let him work through this right now to see if he can grow offensively a little bit.


I think the fact that Pop played Manu so much is indicative of the respect he has for Carlisle. They are old generals going to war against each other, and they both know a lot of the tricks. I think putting Anderson in against a Rick Carlisle defense (especially on a night when almost everyone is cold) would result in a loss. The Mavs would have attacked Kyle whenever he had the ball. I don't think playing Manu for 28 minutes once in a while will hurt him, it was an admission of trust by Pop that Manu can right the ship and contribute in other ways even when his shot isn't falling.

I also think the criticism of Pop is somewhat unwarranted. We had players wide open from 3 for a lot of the game. If Green even goes 4-10 from deep, if Manu hits a couple more, or if Patty doesn't go 1-7 from the field, that game breaks open in the 2nd when we're up double digits and we probably don't look back. I don't see how you can criticize Pop for players missing open looks -- which is why he had to ride our starters so much.



Cry Havoc, Kawhi may be 24, but he'll be 28 next season playing 40 minutes/game. The point is, if he has to play 40 minutes a game it had better be against OKC, GS, Cleveland - even the Clips - NOT a rebuilt, middle-of-the-pack team like the Mavs. The closer Kawhi is to 30 minutes, the better for the team. It keeps him fresher, and it means that we have other players who can step in and perform. We will not have those players without giving them some time. Hey, we had double digit leads on three occasions, and Patty and Manu were both terrible; give some other guys some burn. Secondly, Pop just failed to make any adjustments to maximize advantages when we had them. I also have to correct your assertion that our starting five were fantastic. Maybe 4 out of 5. By your own grades, Danny was AWOL again.

We don't need to get Kawhi acclimated to the playoffs in November.

He's playing 34 minutes a game this year. It absolutely does not hurt a guy who doesn't even qualify for cheaper car insurance to run out there for an extra 6 minutes. If anything, Kawhi needs sporadic doses of that environment from time to time, so he knows how to play in rhythm for extended minutes. It's baffling that you think Pop is suddenly going to lean on Kawhi like this in every game, and I think you seem to be suggesting that he put hard minute caps on all of our players, which is just lunacy when it can mean 5-6 games at the end of the season. We don't want to be the 7 seed in the West again, it's not a good setup to winning a title.


You could argue that neither does Carlisle (in terms of getting all the really spectacular potential lottery talent in the draft all these years). In fact, Mavs ignored the draft until recently and their management went a completely different way. I just admire Carlisle ability to really get the most out of whatever ingredients he has, in the middle of lack of continuity and attrition. Pop has not ever done that, since he has like I said the stars, and he has notoriously been slow to integrate guys, or figure out how to use them.

Let's not forget Timmy was a supreme talent that came ready made, Manu was already an accomplished player and something like 25. Tony was very young and might be Pop's best coaching job until Kawhi, and still Tony's game relied on his speed, and he had that god-given talent since he came in. One thing Tony could do, was "get to the hole" as they say.

Still, Pop admits it took him time, a couple years even to let Manu be Manu and to really understand how to get the best out of Manu. They fought a whole lot and Pop attempted to restrain Manu too much. Of the big 3, Manu is the one Pop never got a mold for. That just tells you Manu came ready made. Messina (or Manu's early coaches) probably had more to do with his molding.

Pop also admitted he didn't know how to use Diaw when he came in. We could infer, its in part the reason why Diaw disappeared on us his first or second season here, and went passive or AWOL when we could have used him. It's on Diaw that he is as chilled as he is, but its on the coach to figure out how to squeeze the best of Diaw and Pop did not figure Diaw out until Diaw went to the Euro, owned everyone and their mothers, dethroned Spain, captained Les Bleus and came back with a fire that Pop said: "you know what? You now have to do that for me too!!!!" :bobo (Sidenote: I read a story where Pop asked Tony how to use Diaw better, and Tony was the one who told Pop that up until that point they never called post up plays for Boris, and yet Boris is a very good post up player).

Pop has always had the defensive coaching stuff, that is his best. But I daresay he's not the best at figuring out guys offensively or how to integrate them/feature them. I brought up Kawhi, since it took Pop until this season to really feature him and let him shine consistently. He's still growing and evolving and stuff, but it took a long time to get to this level. Look at Paul George in Indiana, there sooner.

The younger guys, possibly the lack of trust stems obviously from the unexpected performance of young players, but also because they are evolving and growing, and unlike the veterans, they are not finished products and you don't yet know what they will do well.

Pop's a winning coach and I admire him intensely, but I do think he's slow to learn how to feature and integrate guys. Lamarcus right now not the exception.

It's really mind-boggling how you guys are so willing to minimize the career of Pop, especially given the fact that you just made your displeasure known with him for playing a player for 40 minutes, when Pop is basically THE guy in the NBA who created a new standard of player preservation that had led Duncan (and now Manu) to extend their careers beyond what was thought possible. Popovich in his time in the NBA has done nothing short of:
1) author one of the greatest defensive teams in history for almost two decades now, with just a couple of less than stellar years,
2) introduce international players into the roster in a way that had previously thought to be idiotic, but is now copied by literally every organization in the League,
3) completely shift the attitudes about player health and longevity to a more career focused outlook, and
4) engineer one of the most impressive complete team realignments the NBA has ever seen when he transitioned the Spurs from a measured defensive juggernaut to a pace and space offense that is not only responsible for the last two NBA titles, but also two of the greatest teams ever to set foot on the hardwood.

Getting a lot out of mid-tier talent does not suddenly make you the greatest coach in the NBA, and it's not the same as building title teams. Larry Brown was just as good, if not better than Rick at that, and Brown rarely if ever had a guy like Dirk on his team to continually build and rebuild around. Carlisle is a great coach, make no mistake, but you guys act like the Mavs have been devoid of talent all these years. They have the greatest shooting big of all-time and until the Spurs went all in and got LMA this past season, the Mavs had soundly beaten the Spurs in free agency for the past decade. Did you forget that the Mavs were a 90+ million dollar team recently, which was good for the top 3 in the NBA for several seasons? This is revisionist history at it's finest. This is the team that's paying Chandler Parsons $30,000,000 over the next two seasons. It would be incredibly easy to stick the Mavs under a microscope for every single decision they make and then in turn rip apart Carlisle's career for all the mistakes he's made. Carlisle ignored the draft because he had the good fortune (pun intended) of the Dallas metro area backing him, so he could afford to go out and just buy up or trade for expensive players. Pop has historically never had that luxury.

Also, taking credit away from Pop for taking some time to get the most out of a guy who wouldn't even get off the bench for the worst team in the NBA. Really? That's a pretty huge reach, and perhaps has more of a place in a political campaign. There are 29 other teams that had a chance to turn Boris Diaw into the asset he's been for us -- Carlisle's Mavs included -- and no one did. You can't take credit away from Pop for the resurrection of Boris's career.

And of course this is conveniently ignoring the fact that Pop is also the pres for the Spurs, further cementing some of the personnel decisions the Spurs have made over the years squarely in Pop's corner. The fact that the Spurs have been so dominant while being a less attractive FA destination than Dallas is just the cherry on top. It looks like the Spurs are so talented precisely because Pop makes average players look great. The fact that you just ranted about Pop's accomplishments for so long and didn't even think to mention the job we've done with Danny Green is pretty telling. He was on his way out of the NBA -- Pop turned him into a $15,000,000 player.

[weeks]

Cry havoc with the hop-on-pop goods. Dude is arrogant, taciturn, stubborn, and pig-headed, and he drives me up a fkn wall every other game - but damn if I want anyone else running this team .We're sick with good fortune in San An .

[SAGirl]

I also think the criticism of Pop is somewhat unwarranted. We had players wide open from 3 for a lot of the game. If Green even goes 4-10 from deep, if Manu hits a couple more, or if Patty doesn't go 1-7 from the field, that game breaks open in the 2nd when we're up double digits and we probably don't look back. I don't see how you can criticize Pop for players missing open looks -- which is why he had to ride our starters so much.

I very much respect your dissenting opinion. You and I just have different views of the same game. I expected more adjustments to what Pop did, but we won the game and what Pop did was enough. It was a close one though against an injured, old, less talented team, that was on the road in a B2B, and had the result been different (and it could have gone either way) you would have to rethink whether Manu 29 minutes was wise, and whether Pop should not have given Kyle and Ray a run, since the bench struggled mightily. They are both young at this point but capable of quality play in a few minutes. Ray played starter minutes with the Kings for a while, and Kyle played starter minutes against a similar (arguable better than this) Mavs team during December 2014, with a horribly devastated Spurs team that only played 8 players that game. Your headline star might have been Cojo and Bobo that game. Kyle might be able to handle more than you think. Need I remind you, Kyle gave us quality minutes against the Suns and Grizzlies just a few nights ago. We are not talking about his play against the Sixers. You just don't know unless you give guys a chance. They might have been better than a struggling Patty/Manu for a few minutes.

Luckily we do have the stars and Kawhi at a young age to actually right the ship in crunch time. Very much a superstar won game.

My criticism of Pop is not out of the realm of some of the criticism directed at players on here. He does have his quirks and has had his coaching blunders. He says he doesn't know it all, and actually likes assistants that challenge his opinions. I still love the coach and admire him. Sometimes he does things that are headsratching, but he will live with the consequences. Here Pop was living and dying with the stars, and it was the right thing for this game I guess, but it easily could have gone the other way. Had he subbed in Kyle/Ray and they sucked some might have said that cost us the game. Pop always does things for a reason. Turns out he was going to rest Manu, so he could afford Manu 29 minutes.

[sasaint]

Cry Havoc I cannot speak for SAGirl but I don't believe either one of us intends to "minimize" the career of one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA. I believe we are both huge admirers of Pop. Nor was it our intent to review/evaluate his entire career. You have done a very admirable job of stating many of the highlights, including many that you rightly point out are historic. I (and SAGirl) took issue with your grade for Pop in a single game, and we were discussing some specific episodes in his career.

As for Kawhi, you are right that an occasional 40-minute game isn't going to kill the guy. But those games are more than merely occasional if he plays them against every middle-tier team in the league. The same for Manu. The real bottom line is simply this: I thought we had a roster, top-to-bottom, that inspired more confidence in Pop than he showed against the Mavs. The fact that he felt the need to ride Kawhi and, more especially Manu when his tank was clearly empty, is what causes the concern. The reliance upon those two (and I could add Patty, even though he didn't play an inordinate number of minutes) is only a symptom. It is the underlying malady that concerns me the most. If Danny and Patty get it together, the malady is not as dire. But if they don't, and Pop cannot/refuses to use guys behind them, then the malady seems terminal.

Number two seed seems pretty critical to our championship chances this year. But getting a number two seed with a team that has spent itself because of very short rotations doesn't make our championship chances very good, either. I think we all hope that Danny and Patty break out of their doldrums, and additionally that Kyle and/or Ray and/or Simmons reaches a point where Pop can rely on them for some good minutes.


:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

[rasuo214]

Pop played Timmy almost 40 mpg early in his career. So Kawhi playing an occasional 40 minute game isn't a huge deal.

[SAGirl]

Cry Havoc I cannot speak for SAGirl but I don't believe either one of us intends to "minimize" the career of one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA. I believe we are both huge admirers of Pop. Nor was it our intent to review/evaluate his entire career. You have done a very admirable job of stating many of the highlights, including many that you rightly point out are historic. I (and SAGirl) took issue with your grade for Pop in a single game, and we were discussing some specific episodes in his career.


:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:
Very much this, too. We are talking about a specific game and not diminishing our coach's entire career.

I deviated from the main subject a bit to mention that Pop is a coach that tends to bring guys along slowly. It's his way of doing things and it might not be the only way, its just the style he has.

[sasaint]

I very much respect your dissenting opinion. You and I just have different views of the same game. I expected more adjustments to what Pop did, but we won the game and what Pop did was enough. It was a close one though against an injured, older, less talented team, that was on the road in a B2B, and had the result been different (and it could have gone either way) you would have to rethink whether Manu 29 minutes was wise, and whether Pop should not have given Kyle and Ray a run, since the bench struggled mightily. They are both young at this point but capable of quality play in a few minutes. Ray played starter minutes with the Kings for a while, and Kyle played starter minutes against a similar (arguable better than this) Mavs team during December 2014, with a horribly devastated Spurs team that only played 8 players that game. Your headline star might have been Cojo and Bobo that game. Kyle might be able to handle more than you think. Need I remind you, Kyle gave us quality minutes against the Suns and Grizzlies just a few nights ago. We are not talking about his play against the Sixers. You just don't know unless you give guys a chance. They might have been better than a struggling Patty/Manu for a few minutes.

Luckily we do have the stars and Kawhi at a young age to actually right the ship in crunch time. Very much a superstar won game.

My criticism of Pop is not out of the realm of some of the criticism directed at players on here. He does have his quirks and has had his coaching blunders. He says he doesn't know it all, and actually likes assistants that challenge his opinions. I still love the coach and admire him. Sometimes he does things that are headsratching, but he will live with the consequences. Here Pop was living and dying with the stars, and it was the right thing for this game I guess, but it easily could have gone the other way. Had he subbed in Kyle/Ray and they sucked some might have said that cost us the game. Pop always does things for a reason. Turns out he was going to rest Manu, so he could afford Manu 29 minutes.

Even if Manu was going to get a rest, why play him so much if he is off? The refusal to play Kyle and/or Ray when Manu AND Danny AND Patty are off is what causes concern. As you pointed out, Ray started games in this league and was highly touted by RC when we got him from Sactown; yet we have barely seen him. Conclusion: he is not very useful, which is quite troublesome. As you also pointed out, Kyle has started for us, yet Pop preferred a totally spent/ineffectual Manu. Conclusion: Kyle is not very useful. If those are, indeed, Pop's conclusions we seem to be in pretty big trouble. We will be superstar-dependent against every mid-tier team in the league. Maybe that's okay, but it isn't what I expected coming into the season, and I hope we can hold up through a championship run with that approach.

[SAGirl]

Even if Manu was going to get a rest, why play him so much if he is off? The refusal to play Kyle and/or Ray when Manu AND Danny AND Patty are off is what causes concern. As you pointed out, Ray started games in this league and was highly touted by RC when we got him from Sactown; yet we have barely seen him. Conclusion: he is not very useful, which is quite troublesome. As you also pointed out, Kyle has started for us, yet Pop preferred a totally spent/ineffectual Manu. Conclusion: Kyle is not very useful. If those are, indeed, Pop's conclusions we seem to be in pretty big trouble. We will be superstar-dependent against every mid-tier team in the league. Maybe that's okay, but it isn't what I expected coming into the season, and I hope we can hold up through a championship run with that approach.

You are right about this. In the game thread I expressed in a spur of the moment reaction, that I had started to change my view on the depth of our team and agreeing with TD 21, with whom I have been arguing on and off about this point specifically, since he's been saying we are weak in the wing, and I thought we had enough depth to weather the season.

But seeing Pop stick to his short rotation this game, much as he has done in other games against an admittedly weak schedule was a headscratcher. It is funny that Kyle gave quality play against two playoff teams in the Suns and Grizzlies, and barely got a chance against the Mavs. You would think that you kind of want the young guy to keep a rhythm going and build his confidence, but no. Against the Mavs, he barely got a chance, and Ray is not even getting time on the court.

It did make me wonder whether we are as solid as I thought we were... then I /smh because anyone we would bring midseason would not play unless it was Belinelli or Neal, or someone Pop already knew and trusted.

[Cry Havoc]

Cry Havoc I cannot speak for SAGirl but I don't believe either one of us intends to "minimize" the career of one of the best coaches in the history of the NBA. I believe we are both huge admirers of Pop. Nor was it our intent to review/evaluate his entire career. You have done a very admirable job of stating many of the highlights, including many that you rightly point out are historic. I (and SAGirl) took issue with your grade for Pop in a single game, and we were discussing some specific episodes in his career.

As for Kawhi, you are right that an occasional 40-minute game isn't going to kill the guy. But those games are more than merely occasional if he plays them against every middle-tier team in the league. The same for Manu. The real bottom line is simply this: I thought we had a roster, top-to-bottom, that inspired more confidence in Pop than he showed against the Mavs. The fact that he felt the need to ride Kawhi and, more especially Manu when his tank was clearly empty, is what causes the concern. The reliance upon those two (and I could add Patty, even though he didn't play an inordinate number of minutes) is only a symptom. It is the underlying malady that concerns me the most. If Danny and Patty get it together, the malady is not as dire. But if they don't, and Pop cannot/refuses to use guys behind them, then the malady seems terminal.

Number two seed seems pretty critical to our championship chances this year. But getting a number two seed with a team that has spent itself because of very short rotations doesn't make our championship chances very good, either. I think we all hope that Danny and Patty break out of their doldrums, and additionally that Kyle and/or Ray and/or Simmons reaches a point where Pop can rely on them for some good minutes.


:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:

It's a little strange to claim you aren't attempting to make light of Pop's career, when two responses ago it was being discussed how poorly Pop handled Boris Diaw and that he couldn't immediately translate a rookie Manu into an all-star. Those are really bizarre critiques to level at a coach when you claim to "only be speaking about the grades for last game".

Leonard is averaging just under 36 minutes per game for November. That is still within a realistic amount of minutes for a player his age without causing any kind of severe wear and tear. In a 48 minute game that means Kawhi is resting for an entire quarter of the game, plus a lot more than that when you consider timeouts and commercial breaks. If Pop starts habitually playing him for 40 minutes against every team, we'll revisit this discussion, but it definitely feels like you're jumping the gun here.


Even if Manu was going to get a rest, why play him so much if he is off? The refusal to play Kyle and/or Ray when Manu AND Danny AND Patty are off is what causes concern. As you pointed out, Ray started games in this league and was highly touted by RC when we got him from Sactown; yet we have barely seen him. Conclusion: he is not very useful, which is quite troublesome. As you also pointed out, Kyle has started for us, yet Pop preferred a totally spent/ineffectual Manu. Conclusion: Kyle is not very useful. If those are, indeed, Pop's conclusions we seem to be in pretty big trouble. We will be superstar-dependent against every mid-tier team in the league. Maybe that's okay, but it isn't what I expected coming into the season, and I hope we can hold up through a championship run with that approach.

Well, first of all, if you consider that we have Parker, Green, Kawhi, LMA, Tim, Patty, Manu, Diaw, and West, at best that means that Kyle is our 10th man. I don't know if you're making the argument that the Spurs have 9 superstars on their team, but if you are, I don't think we have much to worry about in the playoffs. Either way, rotations are going to shorten in the playoffs, it's very natural. Unless the Spurs make a big trade, I don't see SloMo getting a lot of burn in crunch times of playoff games. He'll get out there in blowouts or for spot minutes against specific matchups. Would I like to see him get more burn? Sure. But probably against a lesser coach than Carlisle.

My bet is that Anderson & the longer end of the bench will get a decent share of minutes tonight.

[sasaint]

You are right about this. In the game thread I expressed in a spur of the moment reaction, that I had started to change my view on the depth of our team and agreeing with TD 21, with whom I have been arguing on and off about this point specifically, since he's been saying we are weak in the wing, and I thought we had enough depth to weather the season.

But seeing Pop stick to his short rotation this game, much as he has done in other games against an admittedly weak schedule was a headscratcher. It is funny that Kyle gave quality play against two playoff teams in the Suns and Grizzlies, and barely got a chance against the Mavs. You would think that you kind of want the young guy to keep a rhythm going and build his confidence, but no. Against the Mavs, he barely got a chance, and Ray is not even getting time on the court.

It did make me wonder whether we are as solid as I thought we were... then I /smh because anyone we would bring midseason would not play unless it was Belinelli or Neal, or someone Pop already knew and trusted.

Kyle has even been taking minutes from Butler recently, so I thought his stock was on a gradual rise. But all I can conclude from Ray's lack of PT is that he is a total bust. Consequently, we have a classic catch-22. Pop doesn't have confidence in the guys on the deep bench currently on the roster, but he certainly wouldn't have confidence in anybody we could bring in at mid-season. We fans just need to pray that the first two units remain healthy for the entire season, and that Danny and Patty revert to form. (Actual Kyle is on the second unit! So make that, "pray that the top 9 remain healthy...")


:flag:

[sasaint]

It's a little strange to claim you aren't attempting to make light of Pop's career, when two responses ago it was being discussed how poorly Pop handled Boris Diaw and that he couldn't immediately translate a rookie Manu into an all-star.

If Pop starts habitually playing him for 40 minutes against every team, we'll revisit this discussion, but it definitely feels like you're jumping the gun.

My bet is that Anderson & the longer end of the bench will get a decent share of minutes tonight.

As for your first comment above, you should review who said what; whether it was I or SAGirl. But if I were you I still wouldn't construe a couple of anecdotes, even if related critically, as some indictment of Pop's career. That is certainly not how I construed them. But I do not believe even a hall-of-fame coach is perfect or beyond questioning/criticism. I have stated in this forum that Pop sees a lot more of his players than I ever will and is in a far better position to evaluate them. In fact, my own concern is borne precisely out of my belief in Pop and his judgment: if he doesn't trust guys 10-14 I am concerned.

As for your second comment above, I suggest that you re-read my comments, paying attention to a particular, big word, "if", which you eloquently employed above.

As for your final comment above, I hope you are right (I expect it, too.) I hope somebody beyond the top 9 can begin to gain Pop's confidence, starting tonight.

I don't think anybody is attacking Pop. He doesn't need you to defend him here. Please keep writing your game grades, because whatever your opinion, you express it very intelligently. I greatly value that. I hope to intelligently articulate my disagreement when I do disagree with your opinions. I think Pop missed opportunities against the Mavs. if some of the points of criticism I see were not, in fact, missed opportunities then some of them are evidence that our bench is unreliable, at least in Pop's opinion, which is the only one that matters in the final analysis. That is a big concern IMHO.

[SAGirl]

It's a little strange to claim you aren't attempting to make light of Pop's career, when two responses ago it was being discussed how poorly Pop handled Boris Diaw and that he couldn't immediately translate a rookie Manu into an all-star. Those are really bizarre critiques to level at a coach when you claim to "only be speaking about the grades for last game".

This was indeed me, and I stated above, I deviated on the subject of the thread a whole lot bc as I was chatting with sasaint, belly full of turkey and in a merry mood, I did share my general view, that Pop is a coach that just in general brings everyone along slowly, and that much is made by everyone that it is so difficult for players to adapt to the system or what not, when my personal opinion is just that it is the opposite. Pop likes to evaluate players, see what they do naturally (recently seen with Lamarcus but also a good deal with kawhi), and then takes his time integrating them into the system. You can't argue with the results he has had over the years, and I pointed this out above too, but he is very particular about his process, and not all coaches have the luxury he has had in bringing guys along slowly.

Obviously a shooter is easy to fit in, but with guys who are unorthodox and are special in their own ways, are less so, and yet guys like that are more important than perhaps everyone else in whether your system works. Anyways, not going to repeat it, since its above, but its my opinion and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Pauleta14]

Thanks so much for the grades!

Almost looks like the old ST is back!

Almost...^^