OT: Is larry bird the most overrated all time great of all time? [Archive] - Page 2

Killakobe81

11-30-2015, 12:15 PM

:lol There was nothing for me to "admit" since I've already acknowledged that players today are more skillful across the board in this debate and past debates on this topic.

My contention is how you and KL overstate that fact and spin it as if players 30 years ago couldn't dribble/finish with their off hands. You two also retardedly overstate the "jump" in athleticism, again spinning it as if players 30 years ago couldn't even dunk or get their shots off against today's highly evolved athletic superheroes. Bird had a 28" vertical. Kawhi has a 32" vertical. :lol Bird at 6'9" is getting his shot against Kawhi Leonard, especially with his high and quick release. And no. Gerald Green would not have been a perennial all-star in the 80's.

I would estimate that 80's players are about 10% worse generally speaking. In a vacuum, players of the 80's would probably see a 10% dip in production against modern competition and today's players transported to that era would see a 10% boost. Once we get into the 90's, it's a wash. Players today are no more athletic and not even much more skillful than then.

Now if you want to talk about the evolution of systems, schemes, game planning, player evaluation/tracking, film study, statistical advancements, etc, then yeah, we've seen a major evolution. 80's ball was highly improvisational and spontaneous, built around rough gameplans, kind of like soccer, while 90's ball was about trying to impose the will of your stars through isolation and then gritting it up on the defensive end. Teams today are much, much better (aside from obvious examples, like the Lakers and Sixers) since you have a more defined structure on both ends of the ball for players to work with. I'd say teams today are 20-30% better than teams from the 80's (doesn't sound like much, but that translates into an average 20-30 point margin of victory). The '86 Celtics are probably getting swept by the Warriors or the 2014 Spurs in a vacuum (under any rule set). But give that roster a year or two to develop a coherent system and gameplanning philosophy, give them all the film, stat, etc tools, and it's a different story. Not sure if they win a series (probably not). But they would be competitive.

I don't have any problem with championing today's game and players as better, just not to the hyperbolic degree you two do at it, which is probably out of trolling, but part of me thinks you really believe Gerald Green would be an all-time great in the 80's.

agree with much of your post. but posting verticals of Bird and Kiwi makes little sense. D'russell a has better measured vert than both but plays below the rim most of the time. Only time you see his vert is when he rebounds. In addition the the 4 inches in vert over Bird, Kiwi has hands like Worthy or dr.J plus a crazy wingspan. Again if locked 1 on 1 no screens I truly believe Bird would have trouble getting off his shot against Kiwi. But is basketball played 1 on 1? No. With screens a good system and willing role players Im sure Bird could out up MVP numbers in today's NBA on Kiwi.. My only point is that guys like Kiwi could defend him much better than he could do them And Kiwi isnt even the best SF, Lebron is. So overall No to the Op's point he is not overrated to the degree stated. But if we put bird with Lebron, Kiwi and Durant today you could make a case that you could take any of those 3 over Bird depending on what you value most and Bird is the all time GOAT SF, pre-Lebron ...In the 80's it was no doubt Bird ...then everyone else at SF. Nique was great but a couple notches below. Same for Worthy.And both were more athletic than Bird.he was the best of his era no doubts about that ...but to say he could handle those 3? Not sure about that.

midnightpulp

11-30-2015, 12:30 PM

agree with much of your post. but posting verticals of Bird and Kiwi makes little sense. D'russell a has better measured vert than both but plays below the rim most of the time. Only time you see his vert is when he rebounds. In addition the the 4 inches in vert over Bird, Kiwi has hands like Worthy or dr.J plus a crazy wingspan. Again if locked 1 on 1 no screens I truly believe Bird would have trouble getting off his shot against Kiwi. But is basketball played 1 on 1? No. With screens a good system and willing role players Im sure Bird could out up MVP numbers in today's NBA on Kiwi.. My only point is that guys like Kiwi could defend him much better than he could do them And Kiwi isnt even the best SF, Lebron is. So overall No to the Op's point he is not overrated to the degree stated. But if we put bird with Lebron, Kiwi and Durant today you could make a case that you could take any of those 3 over Bird depending on what you value most and Bird is the all time GOAT SF, pre-Lebron ...In the 80's it was no doubt Bird ...then everyone else at SF. Nique was great but a couple notches below. Same for Worthy.And both were more athletic than Bird.he was the best of his era no doubts about that ...but to say he could handle those 3? Not sure about that.

Well, Kawhi's 4" vert advantage doesn't really come into play since as you know the defender has to anticipate when the offense player is going to take the shot. What made Bird so tough to defend was that quick and high release of his that he brought behind his head. You can't block that. Watch his turnaround game winner against Pippen and a help defending Jordan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoGmMx8Ejrw

Kawhi isn't blocking that. Now I'm not saying Bird would kill Kawhi. Kawhi has a pretty good track record at stopping all the league's best wings, but KL and co. act like Kawhi would turn Bird into Ryan Kelly.

Yeah, and Bird could be freed up and free himself up as well. Another vid of him outplaying Pippen who the usual suspects think is a dramatically different player from Leonard :lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcXp3PSRGvw

BD24

11-30-2015, 08:10 PM

God damn, MidnightPulp in here murdering niggas. :wow

ambchang

11-30-2015, 10:27 PM

midnightpulp

11-30-2015, 11:03 PM

Killakobe81

11-30-2015, 11:26 PM

Kk81 trying hard to downplay the greatness of bird. Really, would you say magic would have the same problems with the quicker PGs of today? whatever problems magic faced against Kevin Johnson and Tim hardaway, he will get the same problems facing Allen iverson and Stephen curry.

Same with bird, whatever problems he had against Pippen and Cooper, he will have the same problems vs kawhi Lebron and Durant. Bird had no problems going up against a team with Hakeem and Sampson when every team playing against the Celtics were trying to stop bird, what makes you think he will have problems with kawhi?

AMb I already said Magic would have similar problems ... Did you even read this thread?
Love them both but Cooper and Pippen compared to LeBron & Durant?
In the same vein as how is it an insult to put Kobe 15th ... how did I downplay Bird?
Called him my 2nd GOAT SF ever ... said he would be #1 if Lebron doesn't ring again ...

So me saying he would have problems defending LeBron & KD and that Kiwi could cause him problems on defense is a slap in the face or diminishing his greatness? A SF that is DPOTY like Cooper with Pippen's length but dedicated to defense first would make it tough for Bird to score why is that NOT a compliment to KL? Durant and Lebron score on most everyone why is it wrong to argue a non elite level athlete and defender (not player Bird is a GOAT player) would struggle to cover those guys? Bird couldn't guard Nique ... Lebron is bigger and faster than Wilkins ... Durant is longer and a more well rounded scorer. Seems pretty logical they would score on Bird too ... Kiwi is more of a question, but he is improving on offense and his defense more than makes up for it. Again where is the diminishing of Bird?

Not sure how I diminish him with any of that. is anything I am saying crazy or derogatory towards Bird? Is this a race thing? :lol is Bird your great white hype/hope and it hurts for me to say these young black superstars would cause him problems? Cuz again none of the 3 (well maybe Lebron) has accomplished ANYTHING close to what Larry Legend has ...
Now that I have Duncan over Kobe I guess you miss arguing with me ... so now you picking fights that aren't there ...
Bird is in my all time top 10. and at least 2nd GOAT SF ...

And yes Magic could not guard Curry ... but Steph cant guard him either due to size ...apples to oranges, Amb ...

Killakobe81

11-30-2015, 11:34 PM

Kawhi would make Bird work and hold Bird under his averages, after all, Kawhi is a historically talented defender, could be the best wing defender we've ever seen in the league, but it wouldn't be to the point where Kawhi turns Bird into Doug McDermott.

I agree on Kiwi's defense ... but I never implied anything like that ...please find where I said anything close to that ...

apalisoc_9

11-30-2015, 11:37 PM

How many times have you heard past players say the difference between making it to the nba and not making it is very little..
every player on open court agreed on this.

The "little" difference between 80's players and modern is = to that. 80' players wont make the league in todays game.

313

11-30-2015, 11:56 PM

Can can barely get into the lane with dribbling the ball off his leg or traveling, and he's a top 5 player in the league. Bird wouldn't have any issues putting up numbers in today's league.

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 12:00 AM

Serious question: Why did the number of White Americans in the NBA decline so dramatically since the 80s, tbh?

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 12:02 AM

Serious question: Why did the number of White Americans in the NBA decline so dramatically since the 80s, tbh?
affirmative action

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 12:18 AM

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 12:21 AM

https://i.gyazo.com/a803c7ef4b914cf4c61a7fd23b95c7fd.png

stats pulled from page 22 of this report

http://nebula.wsimg.com/6e1489cc3560e1e1a2fa88e3030f5149?AccessKeyId=DAC3A 56D8FB782449D2A&disposition=0&alloworigin=1

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 12:26 AM

^^ That's not White American players, it's including International players..

I'm not fabricating the numbers, look it up:lol

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 12:29 AM

not doubting your figures, but feel free the post a link

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 12:36 AM

Feel free, brother..

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=decline+of+white+american+nba+players

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 12:40 AM

hilarious copout. can you direct me to the link you specifically pulled your stats from, since none of the front page links there did?

again, i don't doubt the accuracy of your figures, just would be really cool if you provided the link you are basing them off of

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 12:43 AM

:lol most of the links on that page will give you the figures, tbh..philo..

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-the-real-reason-the-nba-is-losing-fans-2011-2

Based on various statistics, the percentage of African-American players in the NBA has remained relatively constant over the past decade, fluctuating between 72 and 75 percent. The number of foreign-born players has increased exponentially to about 18 percent. The number of white American players, meanwhile, has decreased from 24.3 percent in the 1980-81 season to roughly 10 percent now.

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 12:44 AM

i really doubt that article from 2011 will have figures on the 2013/2014 nba season like the ones you gave

again, i don't doubt the accuracy of your figures, just would be really cool if you provided the link you are basing them off of

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 12:45 AM

Bro, you know that's a bullshit argument, stop:lol..that's really you're counter-argument? :(well, the article is for 2011-2012, but you said 2013-2014:(

Go to basketball-reference and filter the White Americans for 2013-2014 if you don't believe it..I did it for a research paper in the past, it was between 9 and 10%..

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 12:47 AM

it's not even an argument :lol... you specifically cited that season, i just wanted to know where u got that number from. it's cool if you dont have a source, btw

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 12:48 AM

It was actually one of the best assignments I have ever submitted, tbh:lol

It was regarding White people and their attitude towards Lebron, as I've discussed here several times(made a few threads about it..pretty sure spurraider was upset about the results back then, as well:lol)..the research of White attitude towards Lebron piqued my curiosity of the polarizing nature of NBA basketball, and the decline of the White American numbers..

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 12:49 AM

yeah i remember u posting several articles by ethan sherwood strauss about it :lol

but i'm glad we cleared up that the specific season by season numbers you provided aren't backed up by much

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 12:50 AM

So, do you have a theory on the decline of the White American NBA player?

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 12:58 AM

lack of athleticism when the state of the league is largely predicated on it? i dont know

KL2

12-01-2015, 12:58 AM

Bolt is one athlete, an outlier. You can't just refer to him as an example of athletic evolution across the board as much I can't use David Robinson (still unequaled as far as size/speed/athleticism ratio go in the NBA) as an example of how much better athletes were overall in the 90's. All of Bolt's comp aside from Powell still has the traditional ~6ft, 160-180lb sprinter build.

So all of a sudden he doesn't count :lol, but tbh I don't even know why we're using primarily running-jumping sports as an example, you do not run in a straight line in the NBA, you make cuts, you use lateral movement, you make spin moves, you dribble a ball while running, back peddling, it's a lot of starting and stopping that requires a ton of balance and flexibility.

The NFL is a much better example because like the NBA their athletes have to make cuts, move laterally, start and stop, actually make bodily contact with each other. Many NBA/NFL athletes are interchangeable, Matt Barnes and Kawhi Leonard could've been NFL players, Julius Peppers could've been an NBA player etc. If you really think 90's NFL athletes are comparable to today's you're delusional, you hand picked very few genetic freaks that by today's standards are actually pretty common.

Athletes as a whole are far more athletic, and it's not close. Something as simple as Google has made that possible with all the things we know about nutrition and weight training, not to mention the 5.5 Million children playing youth basketball honing their games from young ages. Private coaching has done wonders for NBA basketball, without it you wouldn't see players like Curry.

I also see you keep referring to the jump shooting, ball handling, passing evolution among bigger players. That is a SKILL evolution, not an athletic evolution, and with regard to perimeter oriented bigs who can shoot and dribble (many bigs still can't even do that), that is an evolution that was dictated by rule changes more than any kind of natural progression. For all the skills gain in those areas, bigs lost skills in the post. DeAndre, Dwight Howard, Whiteside, Davis are all flat out shit in the post. Again, why do you think Duncan can still play against these guys on one leg? Bird and Magic were Boris Diaw 30 years ago. I also like the way you deflect to his weight as if that's a positive. If he wasn't a fatass, he'd be even more dangerous, as he was when he was a lean 210-220 when he first came into the league. And :lmao at LMA being 270lb.

So yeah, you haven't proven there has been any great leap in athleticism from the 60's to today. There's been progress with better training methods and nutrition, but not some exponential leap that has produced 50" verticals for most NBA players.

Do you know what "much" means? You think a microsecond gain in the 40 is a "leap." Or a 100th of inch in vertical leap is a leap. I don't. And I would contend that point. The Patriots won the Superbowl with a midget, white receiving core and a running back by committee who are all pretty underwhelming athletically. Gronk is the only "freak" in that bunch. The 80's had Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, Ronnie Lott, Rod Woodson, Lawrence Taylor, Walter Payton, etc, etc, all with pretty much identical size/speed/athleticism ratios to their modern superstar counterparts. Even Charles Woodson, who was a young contemporary of that group in the 90's is leading the league (or was) in INTs :lol. Yeah, "modern" athletes have "exponentially leaped" over their past equivalents. I'll concede tight ends have gotten more athletic, but that's out of demand, once again prompted by certain rule changes and strategies, rather than some kind of natural evolution. The point you continually fail to get and acknowledge is that as the game changes, a player will change with it. If more size and explosiveness is required, they'll train that up. If they need to improve ball handling, they'll improve. You act like Bird, Magic, any past great that was an athletic or skillful freak by any measure wouldn't be able to evolve because they're playing with human beings who have gone through some kind of magical athletic evolution in 50 years. Bill Russell was a freak. Give a 20 year old Russell a year of development under modern conditions, and he's terrorizing opposing offenses and dominating in the pick-and-roll. Same with Wilt. Oscar. Etc.

See above. If you're an athlete, lateral quickness is not something magically foreign to you. If they need to train that attribute, they would.

I've also seen D-Rob cross Cedric Ceballos out of his shoes (literally). And there wasn't some leap from 80's basketball to the early 90's. And where is your cut off point for bigs?

6'9, 260:

Most of those clips are of past his prime Malone. He was even better on the break and open floor in the 80's/90's. Still a choker, though. And lol at bigs being as mobile as Hakeem, David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, 20-25 year old Sabonis. Duncan still ranks ahead of all these modern lops. Yeah, bigs today have very imposing and unstoppable athleticism that the supposedly slowfooted bigs of the past can't handle on either end. And yeah, Duncan can't step out and guard stretch 4s. I mean, he is 40 with one leg. In any event, for as much as a Kevin McHale couldn't guard Blake on the perimeter, Blake couldn't guard him in the post (and neither could DeMonkey).

Boban runs the court like a deer :lmao. Now I know you're really biased toward modern players.

Sure, but an evolution of medicine isn't an evolution of innate human athleticism. If you want me to concede the massive superiority of today's players compared to a period like the 80's (which isn't a fair comparison, since they trained very differently for the game back then, since it was much more high tempo), I want to see raw numbers: vertical leaps, baseline-to-baseline times, shuttle times, etc, etc. You seem to be all too impressed by physique and muscle definition. Yeah, they had that even in the 60's.

Are players today superior? Sure. But not massively so compared to post-merger NBA players (there was a leap from 60's to 70's ball prompted by the ABA, and guess what, great players from the mid-60s EVOLVED their skillsets to keep up in the 70's. You act like this shit is impossible to achieve). We've seen Jordan evolve his skillset from a wiry, quick penetrator to a more imposing presence who can operate in the post. And even at 40, he was dropping 22ppg per game in '01 on modern players weened on your Eastern Bloc training.

:lol Pippen was 230. And :lol he couldn't guard the Rudy Gays, Nick Youngs and Chandler Parsons of the league. For every KD and Lebron, there's 5 trash equivalents. I agree overall wing depth is deeper, but it's not something that Scottie Pippen couldn't handle on a nightly basis. He'd be right up there with Kawhi and Green as the best wing defenders in the league.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/pippen_bio.html

SGs like who? A broken down D-Wade is still putting up good numbers. You mean SGs like Bradley Beal, Klay Thompson, CJ McCollum, Eric Gordon, etc, etc? No bigger than SGs of the 90's (admittedly the 80's players were leaner, but it was more of a stamina game then, and those same players put on weight as the game changed).

The SF position has pretty much remained steady at the 6'6"-6-9" height since the 80's. They were even around 230!

http://www.nba.com/history/players/wilkins_bio.html

Bigs are more mobile, but have shittier fundamentals in the post. Blame AAU and Kevin Garnett for this, since after KG, every big wanted to play as a jumpshooter. It was only AFTER the rule changes that soft jumpshooting perimeter bigs became a strength rather than a liability as they were in the early-mid-00s grit and grind era. The Spurs and Lakers ate those type pace-and-space teams alive in those days. Don't get me wrong, I prefer pace-and-space, but rule changes are what made it an effective strategy, not because athleticism and skillsets changed necessitating its use.

Ah, I see what the problem is here. You don't realize the NBA didn't start employing strength and conditioning coaches until I believe around either '88 or '90? Strength and conditioning coaches helped revolutionize athleticism in both the NFL and NBA. The NFL first started hiring them in the 70's, they taught athletes how to remain injury free, how to workout in an explosive manner, how to work out properly and target muscles they didn't even know they had, also most importantly what to eat which is extremely important when lifting. The final product are 6'11 274lb PF's like Aldridge, 270lb SF's like Lebron, 240lb SF's like Leonard, 6'10 260lb ball handlers like Griffin etc.

A lot of athletes in the 80's were on their own, they didn't have guidance athletes do now, they didn't have something as simple as google in their lives. That is why 80's players were so lightweight, many of them did not lift weights because they didn't know how. Diet wise a lot of guys didn't know wtf they were doing, and if you lift weights you'll know how vital a proper diet is. You can workout all you want, but if your diet isn't on point, you'll see piss poor results.

Strength and conditioning coaches are now hired by colleges too, players bodies are being molded from very young ages and have access to these facilities whenever they please.

Michael Jordan did not start lifting weights until 1989

http://www.maxpreps.com/news/WpxTIZzCckWkptFeAcuDrw/how-michael-became-his-airness.htm

Jordan was one of the first few players to utilize a strength and conditioning coach named Tim Grover, prior to that he'd tried working out but injured himself. He was a 190-195lb stick when he entered this league, it took him years to fill out his frame. That is what you're not understanding, Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Olajuwon, Robinson, Wilkins, Malone, they did not enter the league at the weights they're listed at paper, they were significantly smaller.

When you're posting footage of Jordan, Pippen, or Olajuwon against Bird they were all very inexperienced and hadn't come close to filling out their bodies, their opponents on the other hand were heavily experienced vets that had matured their bodies, although not to the extent you see today because the lack of overall knowledge about nutrition and working out.

The NBA and players saw the effects Tim Grover had on Jordan, soon you had strength and conditioning coaches in every franchise, players like Barkley, Olajuwon, Pippen, Robinson all followed in Jordan's footsteps. All of them, Pippen, Barkley and Olajuwon trained with Jordan's S&C coach, Grover. The whole NBA found out Jordan's secret and applied it to all of their players.

https://2centsworthofsports.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/the-chicago-bulls-used-their-third-pick-to-draft-michael-jordan-the-1984nbspnaismithnbspcollege.jpg

190-195lb rookie.

In the '92 off season Jordan said he was in the 213lbs in 1992 and was barely benching 265lbs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViiOHgnQm4w&t=29m40s

FF to 29:40

By the time he came back after his retirement Jordan was in the 220lb range and significantly stronger, it really helped his post game out as he relied on his size in the post.

-Dominique Wilkins is listed at 230lbs but he like the others, took years to fill out physically. Wilkins was barely 200lbs as a rookie, around 215-220 in his prime, and filled out late in his career around 230lbs:

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Dominique-Wilkins-4866/

-Charles Oakley is listed at 245lbs but like the others, it took him years to fill out his body, he was a 225lb rookie
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Charles-Oakley-3801/

-Scottie Pippen was also a 212lb rookie that took years to physically mature, he didn't reach the 220's until the mid to late 90's.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Scottie-Pippen-3959/

-David Robinson is listed at 250lbs but like the others it took him years to fill his body out, he was a 227lb rookie, he later reached 236 in the 90's and peaked at 250 in the late 90's-00s

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/doc/292853770.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May%2021,%201988&author=MARK%20HEISLER&pub=Los%20Angeles%20Times%20(pre-1997%20Fulltext)&edition=******page=&desc=U.S.%20Olympic%20Men%27s%20Basketball%20Trial s%20The%20Real%20David%20Robinson%20Surfaces%20Aga in (http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/David-Robinson-4126/)

Leonard was already around 230 in his rookie year the size of Charles Oakley and Oakley doesn't have a quarter of Leonard's skill lmao, as a 21 year old rookie he was just as big as Pippen at his physical peak as a man lol . You've been comparing the rookie weights of modern players that haven't been updated to physically peaked 80s-90's players weights.

All of these players have been working on their bodies for years with the help of strength and conditioning coaches which didn't become a staple of the NBA until around the 90s, they didn't even exist in NCAA sports at that time either.

-Lamarcus Aldridge is 274lbs, he's still listed at 240lbs his rookie weight like most players are, it's taken him years to fill out his body:

http://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/index.ssf/2015/04/lamarcus_aldridge_and_the_muscle_that_changed_his. html

Over the past six seasons, Aldridge has added a staggering 41 pounds of muscle to his frame, transforming a 234-pound string bean as a rookie into what teammates and opponents say is now an immovable object.

-Davis' rookie weight is 220lbs, like Aldridge's it has not been updated:

http://www.slamonline.com/nba/anthony-davis-put-on-12-pounds-of-muscle-this-summer/#l6VfcOH7XzU12FUp.97

The 22-year-old Davis, now weighing 253 lbs, is coming off averages of 24.4 points, 10.2 rebounds and 1.5 blocks

-Players like Kevin Durant have been working with strength and conditioning coaches since he was 16 years old, he was 185lbs in high school, around 215 as a rookie, and has now filled out to 240lbs, it's taken him YEARS of training:

http://newsok.com/article/3873172

-Even Kawhi Leonard has been the beneficiary of having 1 on 1 private coaching by a former SDSU player named Marvin Lea, in fact he guided him towards basketball instead of football:
http://www.pe.com/articles/leonard-696346-king-kawhi.html

Leonard also used to workout with Richard Jefferson at SDSU, a lot of these college athletes now have the opportunity to play and practice against a lot of these guys just by hitting up someone with a text or contacting them on social media, it's that easy. They get a ton of work in, private coaching that a lot of players never had access to in the 80's or even 90's.

-Players are receiving all sorts of help and guidance from youth development programs which MILLIONS of kids now benefit from like Leonard and Stephen Curry.

"Private coaching and being able to have access to it was a big part of my development as a basketball player," Curry said. "...

http://www.si.com/nba/2015/03/30/steph-curry-coachup-youth-basketball-golden-state-warriors

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 01:01 AM

man, i really dont want to read walls of texts about sprinting and jumping...

afireinside20

12-01-2015, 01:07 AM

Jordan
TD
kareem
Aids
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem
kobe
Wade/dirk/kg

Tbh

Wade, Dirk, and KG? Gtfo

afireinside20

12-01-2015, 01:17 AM

Larry Bird was a bad mutha. Of course everyone will put Jordan over him, but I say Bird over Jordan. He might not have been a guy that could fly like Mike, but he had the smarts and a hell of a shot. His defense was also very good and he was a decent all around rebounder. His heart and tenacity, and will to never quit made him the greatest ever. The best thing he did though, was make his team better, and give them the belief that they were better than they were. To me, he's the best ever.

spurraider21

12-01-2015, 01:22 AM

either way, HarlemHeat37 i dont get the point... the % of white players is roughly the same. are you contending that white internationals are significantly more athletic than white americans?

Avante

12-01-2015, 01:35 AM

Jordan
Jabbar
LeBron
Magic
Malone
Kobe
The Big O
Bird
Wilt
Duncan

midnightpulp

12-01-2015, 02:49 AM

So, do you have a theory on the decline of the White American NBA player?

It's strange. It's not a genetic thing, since a lot of white Americans are of the same "stock" as the foreign born whites who have taken their place. My guess is that foreign born players are forged in tougher conditions, playing professional ball in the various Euroleagues as early as 16. The competition is much better there than it is in the NCAA/AAU. I also think white Americans have lost interest in basketball due to its image as a "black/hip-hop" sport. Fathers probably push their kids at a young age to play baseball or football rather than basketball. I mean, white American basketball players are pretty underwhelming athletically compared to Mike Trout, Gronk, Woodhead, etc. Shit, Kevin Pillar on your Blue Jays probably has a higher vertical than 99% of white American basketball players :lol

In a lot of European countries, especially in Eastern Europe, basketball is a "religion." Funny enough, basketball exchanged places with baseball over the past 80 years in this regard. Basketball was once a good old boy "white" sport that blacks had little interest in, preferring to play baseball. Now baseball has that image in the US (but baseball is the "hip/cool" sport in a lot of Latin countries), with blacks viewing the game as "uncool."

tl;dr it's a cultural thing.

midnightpulp

12-01-2015, 03:48 AM

So all of a sudden he doesn't count :lol, but tbh I don't even know why we're using primarily running-jumping sports as an example, you do not run in a straight line in the NBA, you make cuts, you use lateral movement, you make spin moves, you dribble a ball while running, back peddling, it's a lot of starting and stopping that requires a ton of balance and flexibility.

Boit "counts," but he's not portending the next stage of sprinter/athletic evolution as much as David Robinson didn't advance 7 foot basketball players to all look and play like him. Bolt is not the norm. He's 1 in a billion, like Robinson. We haven't seen another David Robinson from an athletic/size/height standpoint. Closest we have is probably Lebron.

The NFL is a much better example because like the NBA their athletes have to make cuts, move laterally, start and stop, actually make bodily contact with each other. Many NBA/NFL athletes are interchangeable, Matt Barnes and Kawhi Leonard could've been NFL players, Julius Peppers could've been an NBA player etc. If you really think 90's NFL athletes are comparable to today's you're delusional, you hand picked very few genetic freaks that by today's standards are actually pretty common.

If you're going to make these claims, I want data, not qualitative "eye test" examinations of what you believe is "cutting edge" athleticism. For you to make such a claim would have to assume some giant leap in innate human athleticism over 2/3 decades. Sports science can only take human biomechanical limitations so far, and from what I've read on the subject, we've peaked a while ago. I would say the biggest gains in the sports medicine area have to do with prolonging careers. If what you say is true, then running back 40 times should be averaging 4.2. They're not. They're still at about their 4.4/4.5 averages as they were in the 80's and 90's (no handpicking on my part needed). Herschel Walker, Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, any top tier great from the 80's/90's is top athlete in today's game. Walker, for instance, ran the 100m in 10.10 at 6'1" 225 and held the 55m world record. If you want to credit his athleticism to "Eastern Bloc" methods, fair enough, but your contention that NFL athletes are FAR superior today is retarded. I'm sure there's been a gain, but it's less than 10%. If it were anything more, we'd see players running sub-4 40s and having 50" verts as the norm across the league.

Athletes as a whole are far more athletic, and it's not close. Something as simple as Google has made that possible with all the things we know about nutrition and weight training, not to mention the 5.5 Million children playing youth basketball honing their games from young ages. Private coaching has done wonders for NBA basketball, without it you wouldn't see players like Curry.

Private coaching and more kids playing all translates into an skill evolution, not an athletic one. And like I said, when we look at sports history, the players from the previous era typically transition into the "new and improved" era without much problem, provided they're still relatively young. You talk like google and proper diet are magical or something. It's not turning a 5.0 40yd runner into a 4.3 runner.

Ah, I see what the problem is here. You don't realize the NBA didn't start employing strength and conditioning coaches until I believe around either '88 or '90? Strength and conditioning coaches helped revolutionize athleticism in both the NFL and NBA. The NFL first started hiring them in the 70's, they taught athletes how to remain injury free, how to workout in an explosive manner, how to work out properly and target muscles they didn't even know they had, also most importantly what to eat which is extremely important when lifting. The final product are 6'11 274lb PF's like Aldridge, 270lb SF's like Lebron, 240lb SF's like Leonard, 6'10 260lb ball handlers like Griffin etc.

A lot of athletes in the 80's were on their own, they didn't have guidance athletes do now, they didn't have something as simple as google in their lives. That is why 80's players were so lightweight, many of them did not lift weights because they didn't know how. Diet wise a lot of guys didn't know wtf they were doing, and if you lift weights you'll know how vital a proper diet is. You can workout all you want, but if your diet isn't on point, you'll see piss poor results.

Strength and conditioning coaches are now hired by colleges too, players bodies are being molded from very young ages and have access to these facilities whenever they please.

We've had this misunderstanding in the past, and you ignore it when I point it out to you every time. Your REVOLUTION is my SLOW LINEAR progress. I've demonstrated, despite how "advanced we are," that human athleticism has only generally improved by about 10% over the past 120 years. Bolt did not cut the 100m time in half from when it was first ran in competition in 1891. The most cutting edge runner the world has ever seen has only improved on that 10.8 1891 time by 1.2 seconds. And that guy no doubt had poor technique. Transport him to today, spend a month with him showing him modern sprinting technique (you don't even need to give him modern training), and he probably breaks 10 easily. And given the fact he wasn't a sub-saharan African, he probably wasn't the "fastest man in the world." And when you break that progress up into a per year basis, and it's ungodly slow. Same progress and even stagnation has occurred in other athletic events. We've peaked.

When you're posting footage of Jordan, Pippen, or Olajuwon against Bird they were all very inexperienced and hadn't come close to filling out their bodies, their opponents on the other hand were heavily experienced vets that had matured their bodies, although not to the extent you see today because the lack of overall knowledge about nutrition and working out.

The NBA and players saw the effects Tim Grover had on Jordan, soon you had strength and conditioning coaches in every franchise, players like Barkley, Olajuwon, Pippen, Robinson all followed in Jordan's footsteps. All of them, Pippen, Barkley and Olajuwon trained with Jordan's S&C coach, Grover. The whole NBA found out Jordan's secret and applied it to all of their players.

And guess what, during that transition from 80's leaness to the 90's lean bulk, Bird still averaged 20, 10, 7 on .466 shooting. Watch videos of '92 Bird and he can barely move, his back was gone, and that was the year Jordan was at his all-time peak. First game against Chicago, Bird dropped 30 on 13-22 shooting. I await some silly excuse from you ("uh, it was only Jordan and Pippen who were working with Tim Grover. It hadn't yet gone league wide, so that was why Bird was able to do well."). He even had a 49 point game against Drexler and the Blazers, who had the long and lengthy 6'10" Cliff Robinson (something of a cutting edge player in 92) at SF. And '92 was a year (following the success of the Bulls) that the league seemed to get really athletic. An old Bird adjusted fine. But in this era he'd be Ryan Kelly because reasons and Willie Cauley-Bust being able to move like a guard.

You probably think I'm arguing with you out of nostalgia. No. I'm an "evidence" guy, and your silly contentions (Bird would a 15th man in today's league or Adam Morrison) don't hold up to scrutiny. Now, if you want to be realistic and say "if 80's Bird played exclusively in this era, he's probably not top 10. More like top 20-30." That's an idea that makes sense. You can even eye test this shit. Bird's offensive game is much better than the Ryan Kellys and Adam Morrisons. Light years better in the midpost. Better release point on his jumper (note how Chip has rebuilt Leonard's jumper to have a higher release point more behind the head instead of the common "natural release" point from in front of the face/forehead. Bird had a similar release. And it's one that is pretty much unblockable, especially if you're 6'9"). Could finish with the left and right equally as well. Better passer. And quicker. Bird's first step was actually very quick.

http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/slides/photos/003/959/968/hi-res-66842ca4ade5d2f6e867d09c9c88f7ab_crop_north.jpg?w= 630&h=420&q=75

http://dsz7vodgjx60a.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/main_1-Larry-Bird-Signed-Celtics-16x20-Photo-VS-Michael-Jordan-Schwartz-COA-PristineAuction.com_.jpg

If you played basketball, those are unblockable jumpers for players 6'5"-6'9". You'd have to jump at the exact same time as the shooter (which is nearly impossible to do) and then no-step vert to about 10 feet instantly.

And your examples of players gaining weight proves my point about the ability of players evolving to suit the times (though, they're starting to shed again).

Spurtacular

12-01-2015, 06:31 AM

The weight argument is a non-starter for me. Today's players aren't tougher than that of yesteryear. In fact, they're much wussier.

ambchang

12-01-2015, 07:22 AM

AMb I already said Magic would have similar problems ... Did you even read this thread?
Love them both but Cooper and Pippen compared to LeBron & Durant?
In the same vein as how is it an insult to put Kobe 15th ... how did I downplay Bird?
Called him my 2nd GOAT SF ever ... said he would be #1 if Lebron doesn't ring again ...

So me saying he would have problems defending LeBron & KD and that Kiwi could cause him problems on defense is a slap in the face or diminishing his greatness? A SF that is DPOTY like Cooper with Pippen's length but dedicated to defense first would make it tough for Bird to score why is that NOT a compliment to KL? Durant and Lebron score on most everyone why is it wrong to argue a non elite level athlete and defender (not player Bird is a GOAT player) would struggle to cover those guys? Bird couldn't guard Nique ... Lebron is bigger and faster than Wilkins ... Durant is longer and a more well rounded scorer. Seems pretty logical they would score on Bird too ... Kiwi is more of a question, but he is improving on offense and his defense more than makes up for it. Again where is the diminishing of Bird?

Not sure how I diminish him with any of that. is anything I am saying crazy or derogatory towards Bird? Is this a race thing? :lol is Bird your great white hype/hope and it hurts for me to say these young black superstars would cause him problems? Cuz again none of the 3 (well maybe Lebron) has accomplished ANYTHING close to what Larry Legend has ...
Now that I have Duncan over Kobe I guess you miss arguing with me ... so now you picking fights that aren't there ...
Bird is in my all time top 10. and at least 2nd GOAT SF ...

And yes Magic could not guard Curry ... but Steph cant guard him either due to size ...apples to oranges, Amb ...

So how does that translate to bird not being as dominant as he was back in the day? Lebron, kawhi and Durant can guard bird as well as bird can guard them.

As great as kawhi is on defense, he is but one of the best, not the best. I'd still put Pippen, rodman, and perhaps artest and Bowen above him as a defender.

Kawhi has problems guarding really quick PGs, I'm no sure how well he guards the post, but he's great with guarding athletic, strong SG and sf types, or small ball 4s, which the league is full of right now.

Bird will dominate, magic will dominate and just as much as they did back in the day. They won't get the bring the league from the dead credit, obviously, but they offensive dominance will negate their defensive drop in this day and age.

ambchang

12-01-2015, 07:34 AM

1980-1981: 24.3% of players were White American
1990-1991: 22.6% of players were White Americans
2003-2004: 16% of players were White Americans
2013-2014: 9.9% of players were White Americans

It's a little unfair that the 80s players were allowed to play vs. such an abundance of them, tbh:lol..it's like taking today's league, and inserting a bunch of rec league stars..

There are about 100 European players in the league of about 450 players today. The number of European players in the 80s was only a couple, so negligible.

Taking that into account, I can deduce that the number of black American players in 1980 was about 76% and the number drops to 65%. Does that mean that 11% of black American players were red league players as well?

pgardn

12-01-2015, 07:44 AM

Serious question: Why did the number of White Americans in the NBA decline so dramatically since the 80s, tbh?

This is not even close to the largest decline. Why do you harp on this time period?

pgardn

12-01-2015, 07:45 AM

Killakobe81

12-01-2015, 08:41 AM

So how does that translate to bird not being as dominant as he was back in the day? Never said that. But I do think a case can be made he would be great still but not as dominant. But that was never my argument only that Elite SF would cause him "problems".

Lebron, kawhi and Durant can guard bird as well as bird can guard them. On this we strongly disagree. KL is the only one I would trust to leave Bird matched up on for any length of time and that is because right now the back down turn-around is his go to move and Bird could hold his own on the block.

As great as kawhi is on defense, he is but one of the best, not the best. I'd still put Pippen, rodman, and perhaps artest and Bowen above him as a defender. Agreed. Pistons Rodman is #1 followed close by prime Pippen in my book. Bowen and Cooper a notch below that. Kiwi still needs to prove it over multiple years and if he continues to grow on offense I expect some defensive slippage. The reason why Kiwi would cause Bird problems is not only is he good on the type of guys you mentioned but his length. dont see Bird beating him off the dribble although bird was crafty and because this IQ was so high he was quicker than he looked. Doesnt change the fact that Kiwi would probably not get beat off the dribble and if Bird did put the ball down in front of KL I guarantee you he will get his share of steals. he has done that to wings with far stronger handles then Bird. Bird has a great release point but is it higher than KD's? I saw KL block him twice in a 5 minute sequence ... I dont see how folks cant see him doing that once or twice a game vs. Bird.

Bird will dominate, magic will dominate Agreed and just as much as they did back in the day.

Disagree, but still dominant. Rule changes would help them both though ... but wing defenders Magic would be defended consistently by Danny green, Iggy etc. same with Bird. Larry wouldn't get to torch guys like Bernard King or Dr.J coaches are smarter about matchups and lineups when in the 80's the best 5 played and the best wing defenders were usually bench guys like Coop, Rodman.

They won't get the bring the league from the dead credit, obviously, but they offensive dominance will negate their defensive drop in this day and age. Overall, I agree with this ...

My thoughts above ...

MVPCues

12-01-2015, 09:20 AM

I don't think I have ever read anything more stupid than some of this shit. Comparing Matt Bonner to Larry Bird? Larry Bird would be a fringe D league player today? Insane. Sometimes freedom of speech is a motherfucker.

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 09:26 AM

There are about 100 European players in the league of about 450 players today. The number of European players in the 80s was only a couple, so negligible.

Taking that into account, I can deduce that the number of black American players in 1980 was about 76% and the number drops to 65%. Does that mean that 11% of black American players were red league players as well?

The % decline of Black American players in 2015 is negligible, tbh..just 2 seasons ago, in 2013-2014, 76.3% of the NBA was Black Americans, an increase, actually:lol..it's fair to say that this year's number is anomalous..

I don't know why you guys are so offended by the decline of the White American basketball player:lol..I know it hurts your nostalgic memories, but sorry, there's no denying that a league with 25% of it's players being of an inferior breed hurts it's credibility, tbh..

BG_Spurs_Fan

12-01-2015, 09:32 AM

The % decline of Black American players in 2015 is negligible, tbh.,even in 2013-2014, 76.3% of the NBA was Black Americans:lol..it's fair to say that this year's number is anomalous..

I don't know why you guys are so offended by the decline of the White American basketball player:lol..I know it hurts your nostalgic memories, but sorry, there's no denying that a league with 25% of it's players being of an inferior breed hurts it's credibility, tbh..

What's the difference between white american players and white european/south american players?

HarlemHeat37

12-01-2015, 09:34 AM

What's the difference between white american players and white european/south american players?

European/International players are much more skilled than White American players, tbh..they played a progressive style of basketball well before today's NBA diverted to the current style of shooting/spacing/ball movement, etc..they learn to play in more competitive, better organized leagues vs. veteran players, rather than the NCAA and it's terrible style of basketball..at a young age, they also learn the necessary skills to off-set the lack of athleticism in comparison to their Black counterparts(and aid longevity), unlike White American players that generally peak in college-style ball that doesn't translate well to real basketball..

White American players are not only unathletic for the most part, but they're also lacking in skills outside of spot-up shooting..

BG_Spurs_Fan

12-01-2015, 09:44 AM

Killakobe81

12-01-2015, 09:49 AM

The % decline of Black American players in 2015 is negligible, tbh..just 2 seasons ago, in 2013-2014, 76.3% of the NBA was Black Americans, an increase, actually:lol..it's fair to say that this year's number is anomalous..

I don't know why you guys are so offended by the decline of the White American basketball player:lol..I know it hurts your nostalgic memories, but sorry, there's no denying that a league with 25% of it's players being of an inferior breed hurts it's credibility, tbh..

I am starting to wonder if I got sucked in to a race war because I am not sure anything I said was a diminishing of Bird's greatness. I guess since bird is considered the GOAT white player anything less of saying he would absolutely still dominate in today's game is slap in the face of of white guys everywhere?

But I am NOT calling whiteguys an "inferior breed" i'll let you run with that .... But I do watch as my son plays hoops for his middle school in Frisco and they have no shot against the kids from South Dallas so there is ...that. some have a great hoops IQ etc. But still get destroyed by south Dallas ... my son included. And he is mixed ... (spanish-African Belizean mix)

midnightpulp

12-01-2015, 11:11 AM

European/International players are much more skilled than White American players, tbh..they played a progressive style of basketball well before today's NBA diverted to the current style of shooting/spacing/ball movement, etc..they learn to play in more competitive, better organized leagues vs. veteran players, rather than the NCAA and it's terrible style of basketball..at a young age, they also learn the necessary skills to off-set the lack of athleticism in comparison to their Black counterparts(and aid longevity), unlike White American players that generally peak in college-style ball that doesn't translate well to real basketball..

White American players are not only unathletic for the most part, but they're also lacking in skills outside of spot-up shooting..

Ironically, that was actually prompted by American coaches/basketball people teaching the then "modern" game over there through camps and such in an effort to grow the game globally. Ex-pats like Bob Morse and of course Mike D'Antoni also played big roles in European basketball's development. Basketball was always about passing and shooting until our favorite period of the 90's that de-emphasized team play in favor of creating stars.

I don't think 25% of the league being white Americans devalues a specific time period. White American players were just better back then. The NCAA system was tougher (most players stayed 4 years, even black players, meaning you played against more developed players throughout your 4 year career). No AAU. In 1988, the Celtics did a tour of Europe and crushed the top European Club Team (Real Madrid) and Yugoslavia, who was the top International team (they were without Drazen, though, who was on the Real Madrid team in that tourney). Larry Bird was the MVP and outplayed Drazen in the Finals: 29-12-6 vs. 22-6-6.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_McDonald%27s_Championship

The NCAA system is just awful for player development today.

Spurtacular

12-01-2015, 04:35 PM

IMO, whites were discriminated against the most the 90's and early 00's. I'd say the decreased numbers are a reflection of that. Some remnants of that have survived; but it's noticeably better now.

Spurtacular

12-01-2015, 04:43 PM

Fair enough, I agree. Who are the best white american players right now? Hayward? Love? Arguably not even top 20.

I'd probably put those guys top 20. But there's a pretty significant drop-off between top 10 and 20 as it relates to cumulative performance.

Though, people conveniently overlook that Blake Griffin is half-white. I guess people decide not to count that. And I would not be surprised at all to find out that Curry has some significant white genetics on his mother's side. He and/or the media doesn't seem to be too eager to advertise that though. Also for that matter, Klay Thompson is half white.

ambchang

12-01-2015, 09:09 PM

My thoughts above ...

I think we agree more than disagree. I still maintain the offensive gains of those two in this day and age will negate their defensive drops. And I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

ambchang

12-01-2015, 09:28 PM

The % decline of Black American players in 2015 is negligible, tbh..just 2 seasons ago, in 2013-2014, 76.3% of the NBA was Black Americans, an increase, actually:lol..it's fair to say that this year's number is anomalous..

I don't know why you guys are so offended by the decline of the White American basketball player:lol..I know it hurts your nostalgic memories, but sorry, there's no denying that a league with 25% of it's players being of an inferior breed hurts it's credibility, tbh..

How does that math work? It was nothing but Americans in the 80s. It's now Americans and foreign players. Foreign players make up 24% now, white Americans lost 14%. Therefore black Americans lost 10%. Or is it leaps in mathematical modelling in the last 30 years changed that basic math?

Did math get eastern block training methods too?

lefty

12-01-2015, 09:34 PM

midnightpulp

Have some mercy

Killakobe81

12-01-2015, 09:55 PM

I think we agree more than disagree. I still maintain the offensive gains of those two in this day and age will negate their defensive drops. And I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

No worries not worth debating the minor parts we disagree on.:toast

Kawhitstorm

12-01-2015, 11:02 PM

I'd probably put those guys top 20. But there's a pretty significant drop-off between top 10 and 20 as it relates to cumulative performance.

Though, people conveniently overlook that Blake Griffin is half-white. I guess people decide not to count that. And I would not be surprised at all to find out that Curry has some significant white genetics on his mother's side. He and/or the media doesn't seem to be too eager to advertise that though. Also for that matter, Klay Thompson is half white.

The reason they are All-Stars is because of their "African" genes. All of them had fathers who were black & athletes, what a coincidence! If Jimmer had JR Smith's athleticism he would be have been an All-star but alas his Neanderthal genes are holding him back.:depressed

KL2

12-02-2015, 12:50 AM

Boit "counts," but he's not portending the next stage of sprinter/athletic evolution as much as David Robinson didn't advance 7 foot basketball players to all look and play like him. Bolt is not the norm. He's 1 in a billion, like Robinson. We haven't seen another David Robinson from an athletic/size/height standpoint. Closest we have is probably Lebron.

There are a ton of guys that have breakneck speed at 6'5, Bolt is not the only guy out there, a lot of these guys are playing other sports like the NBA or NFL. Runners are generally smaller because that's the optimum size for running, NFL players are large and agile because that's the optimum size for their sport the same way NBA players are large and agile. Running in a straight line, jumping over hurdles, high jumps, these do not really apply to basketball or football. Especially not now that the game is perimeter oriented and requires much more mobility.

Robinson was a genetic freak and he played in the 90's not 80's, he looked stronger than he actually was. When he was playing with the Mens basketball team playing against players like Sabonis he was barely 227lbs. It took him like 10+ years to fill out his body completely.

If you're going to make these claims, I want data, not qualitative "eye test" examinations of what you believe is "cutting edge" athleticism. For you to make such a claim would have to assume some giant leap in innate human athleticism over 2/3 decades. Sports science can only take human biomechanical limitations so far, and from what I've read on the subject, we've peaked a while ago. I would say the biggest gains in the sports medicine area have to do with prolonging careers. If what you say is true, then running back 40 times should be averaging 4.2. They're not. They're still at about their 4.4/4.5 averages as they were in the 80's and 90's (no handpicking on my part needed). Herschel Walker, Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, any top tier great from the 80's/90's is top athlete in today's game. Walker, for instance, ran the 100m in 10.10 at 6'1" 225 and held the 55m world record. If you want to credit his athleticism to "Eastern Bloc" methods, fair enough, but your contention that NFL athletes are FAR superior today is retarded. I'm sure there's been a gain, but it's less than 10%. If it were anything more, we'd see players running sub-4 40s and having 50" verts as the norm across the league.

The NFL started to use strength and conditioning coaches in the 70's one of the first being Marv Marinovich, they are much more advanced and have a richer history when it comes to proper nutrition and weightlifting, the NBA didn't start to employ S&C coaches until the 90's after Grover transformed Jordan, Pippen and the whole Bulls team.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marv_Marinovich

This is the guy that would help revolutionize American sports by introducing european sports science, because at that time, we were pretty much retarded on the whole subject and they had it mastered.

When you ignore a player's size, in relation to their skill set or how they move, you're ignoring their athleticism. Julius Peppers can run a 4.68 at 6'7 287lbs, is it as fast as Walker's? No, but he's got 6 inches and over 60lbs on him and is considered a finesse player, there are a ton of guys like that in the NFL, a lot that don't even get drafted because it is so rich with athletes.

NBA rookies now weigh more or the same size as most 80's and even 90's players at their peaks of physical development, yet they're playing a more perimeter oriented game that requires them to be agile and explosive. A game that forces them to make quick cuts, move without the ball, fast close outs on 3pt shooters, stay in front of superior ball handlers despite no hand checking, make the proper rotations, guard switches deep on the perimeter, etc.

Most 80's players could run in a straight line fast, could jump high, however most lacked the sheer explosiveness today's league has, they just were not as mobile. They relied on physicality, the ability to back down their man using their body but as I posted, NBA rookies are now larger than most of these men at their physical peak.

Private coaching and more kids playing all translates into an skill evolution, not an athletic one. And like I said, when we look at sports history, the players from the previous era typically transition into the "new and improved" era without much problem, provided they're still relatively young. You talk like google and proper diet are magical or something. It's not turning a 5.0 40yd runner into a 4.3 runner.

Private coaches not only help them work on their skills, but their bodies as well, there is no such thing as "natural" talent in the NBA, every single player has worked hard and has gotten that time in the gym to build their bodies to what it needs to be. Players may act like douche bags and whiny brats, but don't let that fool you, they got to that point with a ton of work.

Durant has been working on his body since he was 16 thanks to private coaching sessions with a S&C coach, they have been vital to players like Curry, Leonard, Gasol, Lebron, Howard, almost every player in the league has had a private coach early in their careers.

Don't you remember the fat shit that was Gasol before strength and conditioning coaches got their hands on him?
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/002/448/278/marcgasol_display_image.jpg?1343338489

We've had this misunderstanding in the past, and you ignore it when I point it out to you every time. Your REVOLUTION is my SLOW LINEAR progress. I've demonstrated, despite how "advanced we are," that human athleticism has only generally improved by about 10% over the past 120 years. Bolt did not cut the 100m time in half from when it was first ran in competition in 1891. The most cutting edge runner the world has ever seen has only improved on that 10.8 1891 time by 1.2 seconds. And that guy no doubt had poor technique. Transport him to today, spend a month with him showing him modern sprinting technique (you don't even need to give him modern training), and he probably breaks 10 easily. And given the fact he wasn't a sub-saharan African, he probably wasn't the "fastest man in the world." And when you break that progress up into a per year basis, and it's ungodly slow. Same progress and even stagnation has occurred in other athletic events. We've peaked.

They didn't electronically start timing the 100m dash until 1912, but again, NBA players do not run in straight lines, you're using Olympic sports that do not relate to the NBA in any way, sports without any sort of physical contact. Some of the training methods may be the same, but the sports aren't at all.

The World record for the 100m dash was originally in the 10.8 range, this speed can now be achieved by most athletes such as former 6'5 260lb rugby player Jonah Lomu or 6'7 287lb Julius Peppers. That is the difference. Athletes as a whole may not be breaking that record, but they are coming close to it and they're not even training for it.

And guess what, during that transition from 80's leaness to the 90's lean bulk, Bird still averaged 20, 10, 7 on .466 shooting. Watch videos of '92 Bird and he can barely move, his back was gone, and that was the year Jordan was at his all-time peak. First game against Chicago, Bird dropped 30 on 13-22 shooting. I await some silly excuse from you ("uh, it was only Jordan and Pippen who were working with Tim Grover. It hadn't yet gone league wide, so that was why Bird was able to do well."). He even had a 49 point game against Drexler and the Blazers, who had the long and lengthy 6'10" Cliff Robinson (something of a cutting edge player in 92) at SF. And '92 was a year (following the success of the Bulls) that the league seemed to get really athletic. An old Bird adjusted fine. But in this era he'd be Ryan Kelly because reasons and Willie Cauley-Bust being able to move like a guard.

The players drafted near '85 such as Olajuwon, Pippen, Jordan, Barkley, Malone, etc. took years and years to fill out their bodies and were heavily inexperienced. Jordan became Jordan thanks to Tim Grover, same with Pippen, in fact he transformed the whole Bulls team:

http://www.livestrong.com/article/402690-michael-jordans-workout-programs/

Teammates, including Scottie Pippen, began to join the morning strength and agility sessions. Jordan’s chef would cook the players breakfast afterward, and thus they became known as the Breakfast Club. The results were especially clear at the foul line, where Bulls players displayed some of the most developed biceps and deltoids in the NBA, and in the scoreline, as the team became capable not only of defeating the rival Pistons and Celtics with superior strength but also besting the Western Conference champs in the NBA Finals.

Jordan and the whole Bulls roster barely started lifting weights in the 89-90 off season, after that, the rest is history, it's not a coincidence they started owning the league when their whole roster started to work out with Grover. Their progress was gradual, but after years of training they eventually filled out in the late 90's. Grover also trained Olajuwon and Barkley, he had a huge impact on the NBA. Bird never played against these guys when they were filled out.

Jordan said he was 213 in the off season of '92, he wasn't 213 during the 91-92 season playing Bird, nor was Pippen anywhere close to filling out.

Don't you realize that it takes time for players' games and bodies to mature? You have to give the new generation time. Duncan used to own players like Jordan, Cousins, Aldridge, etc. when they were young but not anymore, they've been getting the better of him.

It's like Leonard vs Gay, Durant, Melo etc. you can show early clips of these players owning him, but after years of honing his skill and developing his body, he's on another level. Cliff Robinson was a 225lb rookie against Bird, he would later fill out to 240, you're comparing young guns to heavily experienced vets.

You've been assuming players entered the league at the weight they were listed or in their primes, that's false. Malone was significantly bigger and better in the 90's compared to the 80's. Most mid 80s players like MJ, Pippen, Robinson, Malone etc. are listed at their peak weights, not rookie.

https://jerrybembry.files.wordpress.com/2003/09/karl-malone.jpeghttp://thesource.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Karl-Malone-620x480.jpg

You probably think I'm arguing with you out of nostalgia. No. I'm an "evidence" guy, and your silly contentions (Bird would a 15th man in today's league or Adam Morrison) don't hold up to scrutiny. Now, if you want to be realistic and say "if 80's Bird played exclusively in this era, he's probably not top 10. More like top 20-30." That's an idea that makes sense. You can even eye test this shit. Bird's offensive game is much better than the Ryan Kellys and Adam Morrisons. Light years better in the midpost. Better release point on his jumper (note how Chip has rebuilt Leonard's jumper to have a higher release point more behind the head instead of the common "natural release" point from in front of the face/forehead. Bird had a similar release. And it's one that is pretty much unblockable, especially if you're 6'9"). Could finish with the left and right equally as well. Better passer. And quicker. Bird's first step was actually very quick.

Bird relied on physicality like most 80's players, it's not going to work when you're 6'9 220lbs, even Durant is 240lbs and his perimeter handles are light years ahead of Birds as is his first step. Leonard can get off his shot because he's big as fuck, he's at least in the 240lb range, he can actually use his physicality.

Did you see how much bigger Leonard was than Jimmy Butler yesterday? Jimmy Butler weighs 235lbs and Leonard made him his bitch in the post.

http://www.stack.com/a/how-jimmy-butler-changed-up-his-training-this-year-after-2-injury-marred-seasons

"He's up to 235 pounds from 220, while lowering his percentage of body fat to a measly 4 percent."

A player's overall athleticism and skill is relative to the players around them. A guy like Marjanovic can pass and post beautifully in the Euroleague, Splitter was able to knock down jumpers in the Spanish league and post up at will, Simmons looks like Jordan in the D league, Huertas looked like the 2nd coming of Nash in the Euroleague etc.

If you played basketball, those are unblockable jumpers for players 6'5"-6'9". You'd have to jump at the exact same time as the shooter (which is nearly impossible to do) and then no-step vert to about 10 feet instantly.

And your examples of players gaining weight proves my point about the ability of players evolving to suit the times (though, they're starting to shed again).

-The talent pool is far greater than Bird's era, it's not even close, I made a post about it earlier, the talent pool is now in the MILLIONS, not the tens of thousands Bird competed with lol. Even the Euroleague and international play is vastly superior, look at the sheer amount of international players today.

Ginobili, Mills, Ibaka, P. Gasol, M. Gasol, Nowitzki, Parker, Diaw, Porzingis, Pekovic, Vucevic, Splitter, Pachulia, Nurkic, Mozgov, Varejao, Gobert, Fournier, Mirotic, Marjanovic, Valanciunas, Mahinmi etc.

Compare that with the 80's where you had guys like Sabonis getting outplayed by a 227lb rookie D-Robinson and failing to lead his team to a win against the Greeks and the mighty Niko Gallis who dropped 40 on his team lol. Now that guy is overrated, the Euroleague has also come a very long way and is pumping out pros.

-Players are significantly bigger lol. Most SF's are in the 230-250+ range like Butler, Anderson, Leonard, S Johnson, Gay, Melo, George, KD, J Johnson, Bron, Winslow, Giannis, J. Parker, etc. look at how small Butler is yet he weighs 235 and he's probably the smallest guy out of everyone I listed.

You have centers at 270+lbs like M. Gasol, Drummond, Jordan, Cousins, Nurkic, Mozgov, Whiteside, Howard, Hibbert, Pachulia, etc.

You have PF's easily at 260+ like Aldridge, Diaw, Favors, Love, Griffin, Okafor, Davis, Allen, etc. even a player like Chris Bosh weighs 250lbs, however it hasn't been updated (google it).

apalisoc_9

12-02-2015, 01:15 AM

KL2 with the knockout punch.

midnightpulp

12-02-2015, 01:47 AM

There are a ton of guys that have breakneck speed at 6'5, Bolt is not the only guy out there, a lot of these guys are playing other sports like the NBA or NFL. Runners are generally smaller because that's the optimum size for running, NFL players are large and agile because that's the optimum size for their sport the same way NBA players are large and agile. Running in a straight line, jumping over hurdles, high jumps, these do not really apply to basketball or football. Especially not now that the game is perimeter oriented and requires much more mobility.

Robinson was a genetic freak and he played in the 90's not 80's, he looked stronger than he actually was. When he was playing with the Mens basketball team playing against players like Sabonis he was barely 227lbs. It took him like 10+ years to fill out his body completely.

There you go again with that "but the NFL and NBA don't employ the same type of athleticism! So citing Olympic records is irrelevant!" Athleticism is athleticism. If you have the kind of natural athleticism that allows you to run 10 second 100m and jump 40", you'll have/or can have elite lateral movement. And there you also go again with your qualitative observations, "Robinson looked stronger than he was!" Guess who was about the only guy who could defend Shaq 1-on-1 in those days and not get 50 dropped on him? David Robinson. :lol At DeMonkey, Dwight, Marc Gasol, etc being stronger because we live in the magical era of 2015.

The NFL started to use strength and conditioning coaches in the 70's one of the first being Marv Marinovich, they are much more advanced and have a richer history when it comes to proper nutrition and weightlifting, the NBA didn't start to employ S&C coaches until the 90's after Grover transformed Jordan, Pippen and the whole Bulls team.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marv_Marinovich

This is the guy that would help revolutionize American sports by introducing european sports science, because at that time, we were pretty much retarded on the whole subject and they had it mastered.

When you ignore a player's size, in relation to their skill set or how they move, you're ignoring their athleticism. Julius Peppers can run a 4.68 at 6'7 287lbs, is it as fast as Walker's? No, but he's got 6 inches and over 60lbs on him and is considered a finesse player, there are a ton of guys like that in the NFL, a lot that don't even get drafted because it is so rich with athletes.

What you ignore is that the two leagues are not much bigger than they were 20-30 years ago, and NBA players are once again starting to go leaner.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ujxpwt3pd8e951y3tnbq.png

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--sa9pEPWS--/19apu22dmhgf3png.png

We've pretty much flatlined with the exception of O-lineman getting bigger and receiver height increasing a bit. No "revolutionary gains" have been made. And yes, they were just as athletic. Again, I appeal to the very HARD evidence of older, "less cutting edge" players adapting to the modern era. Take Jerry Rice or Emmitt smith. They both seamlessly adjusted. Your evidence is spouting weights. :lol

NBA rookies now weigh more or the same size as most 80's and even 90's players at their peaks of physical development, yet they're playing a more perimeter oriented game that requires them to be agile and explosive. A game that forces them to make quick cuts, move without the ball, fast close outs on 3pt shooters, stay in front of superior ball handlers despite no hand checking, make the proper rotations, guard switches deep on the perimeter, etc.

This is just another development of many over the course of NBA history. NBA players have had no problem adjusting to the new eras over their careers. Bird adjusted from the lean 80's to your post-Eastern Bloc trained NBA, and he still lit people up, despite having no back and no legs. And this is when all your Tim Grover clients were at their basketball peaks (Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Drexler). Magic came in at the height of that era, when all your Tim Grover experiments (according to you) "filled out their bodies." And he put up strong numbers from the PF position after a 4 year layoff, with HIV, and no knees. But this is era is magically different, right?

You pretty much have a kind of reverse nostalgia bias toward it because you're young and get tired of all the old school fans telling you how much better basketball was back then. I get that. And I agree with your sentiment (of course basketball is more advanced today) but it's not advanced to the Superhero-level degree (with regard to athleticism and skills) that you think it is. To make such an extraordinary and dumbass claim that Bird (or Magic or Kevin Johnson or any 80's/90's star) would be a 15th man today requires extraordinary evidence. And talking about weights and Willie Cauley-Bust's mobility isn't evidence. My evidence is simply stated: A declining Bird still put great numbers against an NBA that was more athletic and skilled than ever (at that point). You reply to that with moving the goalposts ("t-t-their bodies weren't filled out yet!") I can site Magic's comeback, and you'll move the goalposts again.

If you made a reasonable statement, like, "Players are 10-15% better overall today than they were 25 years ago." I wouldn't even argue with you, and you'd still catch your nostalgic fish. But you pretty much worship and overrate today's players like nostalgia fans overrate their heroes.

As for electronic timing, it's error margin can be as high .5 seconds either way, so we don't know to what extent those sprinters were over or under timed. My counter to that is that when electronic timing was introduced, times still progressed at about the same rate, so it looks like those times weren't that off generally.

And lol at the talent pool being in the tens of thousands in Bird's era. Millions of Americans did play and pursue basketball back then too. But like I said, NBA stars haven't had trouble adjusting to larger talent pools in the past, like when the NBA became more integrated and the leagues merged, which was a far, far bigger leap in skill/athleticism gap than from the 80's to your Eastern Bloc/Strength and Conditioning era. That's how progress typically works. In the earlier stages, you get big leaps and then progress slows down to a more linear curve. Now if you want to say George Mikan would be a 15th man, that might hold some merit. But post-merger really is the beginning of the modern NBA and there's been no "leaps." Just progress as usual.

midnightpulp

12-02-2015, 01:53 AM

KL2 with the knockout punch.

Yeah, citing player weights and "mobility" is a knockdown argument.

:lol Reverse Nostalgia fans

midnightpulp

12-02-2015, 02:13 AM

I do agree that we were retarded and didn't know what we were doing in regards to the Soviets, though. During the whole Soviet era, we got beat hard in the Olympics.

Oh wait.

http://www.medalspercapita.com/#golds-per-capita:1952

http://www.medalspercapita.com/#golds-per-capita:1956

http://www.medalspercapita.com/#golds-per-capita:1960

http://www.medalspercapita.com/#golds-per-capita:1964

http://www.medalspercapita.com/#golds-per-capita:1968

4-1 in favor of the States.

http://www.medalspercapita.com/#golds-per-capita:1972

^But amazingly, after getting beat by 17 golds, the Soviets came back with a 17 gold win themselves and East Germany increased their total golds by over 100%.

Eastern Bloc training :lol More like Eastern Bloc Steroid programs.

You'll cop out and say, "The 70's is when they really perfected it." But Marinovich was over there during the 60's learning about the "methods they mastered," as we were retardedly stumbling along, never mind the Soviets only beat us once (per capita, which is a fair adjustment) during that time, and got demolished at Mexico City. Furthermore, the Soviets never dominated the sprinting, jumping, swimming, and decathlon events (quite good at the high jump, though. After Fosbery showed them how retarded their technique was :lol). They crushed us at the shot put and other strength events, though. But slavs are inherently good at that, like West Africans are at sprinting.

apalisoc_9

12-02-2015, 02:13 AM

Yeah, citing player weights and "mobility" is a knockdown argument.

:lol Reverse Nostalgia fans

You never replied on the general consensus among players about the difference between D-League players and NBA players.

Many players have aknowledged that the difference is little
.maybe D league player is 0.2 slower than an nba player. Number wise it looks Small but thats enougb for players to get by you on every posession..the same thing that would happen to..80 player.

Marco bellineli can make 360 dunks in game :lol

If an 80.player did that in the 80s hed be considered the greatest athlete of all time :lmao

daslicer

12-02-2015, 02:25 AM

How does that math work? It was nothing but Americans in the 80s. It's now Americans and foreign players. Foreign players make up 24% now, white Americans lost 14%. Therefore black Americans lost 10%. Or is it leaps in mathematical modelling in the last 30 years changed that basic math?

Did math get eastern block training methods too?

:lmao

midnightpulp

12-02-2015, 02:39 AM

You never replied on the general consensus among players about the difference between D-League players and NBA players.

Many players have aknowledged that the difference is little
.maybe D league player is 0.2 slower than an nba player. Number wise it looks Small but thats enougb for players to get by you on every posession..the same thing that would happen to..80 player.

Marco bellineli can make 360 dunks in game :lol

If an 80.player did that in the 80s hed be considered the greatest athlete of all time :lmao

The difference between an NBA star and a D-league player is huge from a production standpoint. It's not even close. We're talking anywhere from 500% to 1000% gains (ex. D-league scrubs gets called in and averages 3 points 1 board per game off the bench in limited minutes, compared to top players who can average 30 points per game, 10-15 boards, etc). And the difference between a starter/rotation player and D-league scrub is 100% to 500%. My estimate is that 80's players would see about a 10% drop in production and floor impact across the board when compared in a vacuum. That doesn't put them at the D-League level. Nor does their "0.2 less slowness," which actually wouldn't affect things that much, since players typically see their basketball peak after their peak athleticism has declined. Bird was 100% "less slow" in the 90's and still lit people up. In fact, the Bird argument (him playing well as a broken down player into the early 90's when the league was at its athletic peak) pretty much shatters KL2's claim and proves my contention of how players can evolve, even when they're past their primes. And Bird isn't the only basketball, football, etc great to evolve over multiple paradigm shifts.

You guys simply think this era is magically athletic because it's modern. As early as the mid-90s, people were saying Bird and Magic would be too unathletic to compete (despite Magic coming back in '96 as a corpse and putting up 14, 8, 7). It's not a new criticism toward those players, since they played a below the rim game, which doesn't excite reverse nostalgia fans.

And what's this silly obsession with dunking? They didn't really emphasis flashy in game dunks until the mid-90's, so no one cared to attempt them or learn them. For dunking athleticism progression, I typically look at free throw line dunks. Players today can't dunk any further out than they could when Dr. J took off from the free throw line.

Has dunking creativity progressed? A lot. But that's a different thing.

Cry Havoc

12-02-2015, 02:45 AM

The difference between an NBA star and a D-league player is huge from a production standpoint. It's not even close. We're talking anywhere from 500% to 1000% gains (ex. D-league scrubs gets called in and averages 3 points 1 board per game off the bench in limited minutes, compared to top players who can average 30 points per game, 10-15 boards, etc). And the difference between a starter/rotation player and D-league scrub is 100% to 500%. My estimate is that 80's players would see about a 10% drop in production and floor impact across the board when compared in a vacuum. That doesn't put them at the D-League level. Nor does their "0.2 less slowness," which actually wouldn't affect things that much, since players typically see their basketball peak after their peak athleticism has declined. Bird was 100% "less slow" in the 90's and still lit people up. In fact, the Bird argument (him playing well as a broken down player into the early 90's when the league was at its athletic peak) pretty much shatters KL2's claim and proves my contention of how players can evolve, even when they're past their primes. And Bird isn't the only basketball, football, etc great to evolve over multiple paradigm shifts.

You guys simply think this era is magically athletic because it's modern. As early as the mid-90s, people were saying Bird and Magic would be too unathletic to compete (despite Magic coming back in '96 as a corpse and putting up 14, 8, 7). It's not a new criticism toward those players, since they played a below the rim game, which doesn't excite reverse nostalgia fans.

And what's this silly obsession with dunking? They didn't really emphasis flashy in game dunks until the mid-90's, so no one cared to attempt them or learn them. For dunking athleticism progression, I typically look at free throw line dunks. Players today can't dunk any further out than they could when Dr. J took off from the free throw line.

Has dunking creativity progressed? A lot. But that's a different thing.

571BuZeeQjE

daslicer

12-02-2015, 02:53 AM

You guys simply think this era is magically athletic because it's modern. As early as the mid-90s, people were saying Bird and Magic would be too unathletic to compete (despite Magic coming back in '96 as a corpse and putting up 14, 8, 7). It's not a new criticism toward those players, since they played a below the rim game, which doesn't excite reverse nostalgia fans.

Magic's game and his physique in '96 resembled Spurs Boris Diaw granted he had better numbers.

Spurtacular

12-02-2015, 02:58 AM

The reason they are All-Stars is because of their "African" genes. All of them had fathers who were black & athletes, what a coincidence! If Jimmer had JR Smith's athleticism he would be have been an All-star but alas his Neanderthal genes are holding him back.:depressed

I think the science isn't very advanced yet to say if you're right or wrong.

The point is that Blake. Thompson. etc are half white at the end of the day. Somehow. they don't get counted in the white pool. That's definitely iffy to me.

midnightpulp

12-02-2015, 03:06 AM

Magic's game and his physique in '96 resembled Spurs Boris Diaw granted he had better numbers.

Yeah, he was broken down in every possible athletic and physical way, and yet sleptwalk his way to good numbers in an era that was the land of the giants with all the great bigs.

Reverse Nostalgia fans usually falsely perceive size and athleticism as indicators of player ability. To this day, the perception persists (among NBA fans who didn't watch the Spurs that much over the past 20 years) that Shaq dominated Duncan in their matchups. They look at youtube highlights and see this 360lb monster who moves like a cat in the post and conclude that there is no possible way a 250lb Tim Duncan who doesn't really jump all that high or move all that quick (which is false. Duncan has deceptive quickness that doesn't impress on highlight vids like Hakeem's and such) couldn't possibly guard or score on Shaq. Yet Duncan got the best of Shaq usually and was often times the most effective one-on-one defender against him. KL2, Apa, etc jump to the same false conclusions because they over-fetishize athletic traits and size.

I'm not trying to convince them the 80's and 90's were the peak of basketball. I don't agree with that and think basketball has evolved massively on the strategy/player evaluation/game planning side of things. There's also been athletic and skill evolutions, but they're overstated to idiotic degrees.

gambit1990

12-02-2015, 03:19 AM

3 mvps, 3 rings, 2 fmvps, 50-40-90 club twice... in 13 seasons. not a bad passer either. tough, clutch. who overrates him? and by how much? i never see people saying he's #1, #2, #3 #4, #5. he's top seven, eight at worse.

Kawhitstorm

12-02-2015, 03:29 AM

I think the science isn't very advanced yet to say if you're right or wrong.

The point is that Blake. Thompson. etc are half white at the end of the day. Somehow. they don't get counted in the white pool. That's definitely iffy to me.

If segregation was still legal, none of them would be allowed to drink from the "Whites Only" fountain

Spurtacular

12-02-2015, 04:14 AM

If segregation was still legal, none of them would be allowed to drink from the "Whites Only" fountain

Well. thanks for that historical point.

lefty

12-02-2015, 08:54 AM

KL2

12-02-2015, 03:00 PM

There you go again with that "but the NFL and NBA don't employ the same type of athleticism! So citing Olympic records is irrelevant!" Athleticism is athleticism. If you have the kind of natural athleticism that allows you to run 10 second 100m and jump 40", you'll have/or can have elite lateral movement. And there you also go again with your qualitative observations, "Robinson looked stronger than he was!" Guess who was about the only guy who could defend Shaq 1-on-1 in those days and not get 50 dropped on him? David Robinson. :lol At DeMonkey, Dwight, Marc Gasol, etc being stronger because we live in the magical era of 2015.

The NFL/NBA have very similar types of athleticism and their athletes actually make physical contact with each other. Again, running in a straight line, jumping straight up, or over hurdles not making physical contact at all, these do not really apply to the athleticism you need in the NBA/NFL as a whole.

You're delusional if you think guys are getting by on "natural" athleticism, they worked HARD for their game and bodies. Don't let their attitudes fool you, they may act like whiny douche bags but that doesn't mean they don't train hard. Players like Lebron, Durant, Griffin, Leonard, Curry, Westbrook, Cousins, etc. have all been training since they were just teenagers while Jordan and the whole Bulls team barely started to receive much of the same training as adults.

Gasol isn't a strong guy? He's 6'11 270+lbs:
http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/12/01/sports/gasol1/gasol1-blog427.jpg

I bet you probably don't think Matt Bonner is strong either, even though at his 6'10 240+ frame he would've had superior strength and size over most 80's players. You wouldn't be able to stop Bonner in the 80's, he would've lit most teams up with his shooting ability. He could get whatever shot he wanted.

The NFL started to use strength and conditioning coaches in the 70's one of the first being Marv Marinovich, they are much more advanced and have a richer history when it comes to proper nutrition and weightlifting, the NBA didn't start to employ S&C coaches until the 90's after Grover transformed Jordan, Pippen and the whole Bulls team.

What you ignore is that the two leagues are not much bigger than they were 20-30 years ago, and NBA players are once again starting to go leaner.

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/ujxpwt3pd8e951y3tnbq.png

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--sa9pEPWS--/19apu22dmhgf3png.png

We've pretty much flatlined with the exception of O-lineman getting bigger and receiver height increasing a bit. No "revolutionary gains" have been made. And yes, they were just as athletic. Again, I appeal to the very HARD evidence of older, "less cutting edge" players adapting to the modern era. Take Jerry Rice or Emmitt smith. They both seamlessly adjusted. Your evidence is spouting weights. :lol

Lol, look at how things stagnated from '70-80. The first strength and conditioning coaches in the NFL were hired in the early to mid 70's with Marinovich being one of the first. He is heavily responsible for the Raider's '76 championship, the same way Grover was heavily responsible for the Bulls' success in the 90's. As more and more teams started to hire S&C coaches you'll notice that by the 80's players weights would start to increase, just like 90's NBA basketball. I'm not sure when NCAA teams started to employ them, that too would have a big impact.

This is just another development of many over the course of NBA history. NBA players have had no problem adjusting to the new eras over their careers. Bird adjusted from the lean 80's to your post-Eastern Bloc trained NBA, and he still lit people up, despite having no back and no legs. And this is when all your Tim Grover clients were at their basketball peaks (Jordan, Pippen, Barkley, Drexler). Magic came in at the height of that era, when all your Tim Grover experiments (according to you) "filled out their bodies." And he put up strong numbers from the PF position after a 4 year layoff, with HIV, and no knees. But this is era is magically different, right?

You pretty much have a kind of reverse nostalgia bias toward it because you're young and get tired of all the old school fans telling you how much better basketball was back then. I get that. And I agree with your sentiment (of course basketball is more advanced today) but it's not advanced to the Superhero-level degree (with regard to athleticism and skills) that you think it is. To make such an extraordinary and dumbass claim that Bird (or Magic or Kevin Johnson or any 80's/90's star) would be a 15th man today requires extraordinary evidence. And talking about weights and Willie Cauley-Bust's mobility isn't evidence. My evidence is simply stated: A declining Bird still put great numbers against an NBA that was more athletic and skilled than ever (at that point). You reply to that with moving the goalposts ("t-t-their bodies weren't filled out yet!") I can site Magic's comeback, and you'll move the goalposts again.

Strength and conditioning coaches were not employed by the NBA until the 90's, Jordan/Pippen had barely lifted weights for a year or two at the most when they played against Bird. Barkley, Olajuwon, Pippen, Jordan all worked with Grover in the 90's. Jordan-Pippen didn't reach their prime playing weights of 220+ until the late 90's.

Johnson played 32 games due to the lockout and wasn't even starting, he was a backup. He was playing PF, but he did pack on like 20lbs, and again, the game has changed since the 90's, it's been 20 years since '95 lol. Johnson would be brought out on the perimeter, isolated or switched against, and would be completely exposed.

If you made a reasonable statement, like, "Players are 10-15% better overall today than they were 25 years ago." I wouldn't even argue with you, and you'd still catch your nostalgic fish. But you pretty much worship and overrate today's players like nostalgia fans overrate their heroes.

As for electronic timing, it's error margin can be as high .5 seconds either way, so we don't know to what extent those sprinters were over or under timed. My counter to that is that when electronic timing was introduced, times still progressed at about the same rate, so it looks like those times weren't that off generally.

Athletes as a whole are superior when you factor in the talent pool, the amount of youth development programs, and the access to proper diet, weight lifting etc. as well as actually pay attention to their skill sets in relation to their size. They worked on their bodies to allow them to do what they needed them to.

You have 6'7 290lb guys running the 100m near speeds that come close to previously set Olympic records, this is pretty damn common in the NFL and even the NBA. If a guy is as agile as you, can run as fast as you, can move as fast as you laterally, but has 50lbs on you, you're fucked. Walker's 100m time was pretty amazing and rare in his time, but it's pretty common in today's NFL, even guys that don't get drafted.

The game has changed dramatically now that it's so perimeter oriented, I can't stress that enough. Players utilize much more lateral movements with all the ball handlers and lack of hand checking, guys are forced to cover more areas of the floor, team defense has changed quite a bit. The farther out on the court you go, the more mobile your players have to be.

And lol at the talent pool being in the tens of thousands in Bird's era. Millions of Americans did play and pursue basketball back then too. But like I said, NBA stars haven't had trouble adjusting to larger talent pools in the past, like when the NBA became more integrated and the leagues merged, which was a far, far bigger leap in skill/athleticism gap than from the 80's to your Eastern Bloc/Strength and Conditioning era. That's how progress typically works. In the earlier stages, you get big leaps and then progress slows down to a more linear curve. Now if you want to say George Mikan would be a 15th man, that might hold some merit. But post-merger really is the beginning of the modern NBA and there's been no "leaps." Just progress as usual.

The NBA didn't start broadcasting live games on cable until like '84, that's when they marketed the shit out of their stars, Bird, Johnson, Jordan etc. The NBA was still behind sports like the NFL-MLB-Hockey-Baseball-Tennis-Horse racing-Boxing, etc. it was relatively unpopular in America.

Cable tv put basketball on a world stage in the mid-late 80's, that's when the talent pool started to boom. As tv and cable became more affordable and more common in the US, it was put on for a much bigger audience. That had a ripple effect on the NBA-College basketball-High school bball-youth sports.

Right now there are 5.5 million children playing youth basketball in America honing their games from young ages, receiving private coaching, working on their bodies, honing their skills. That 5.5 million gets filtered down to just 550,000 men's HS basketball players, that 550,000 then gets filtered down to the 4,500 Div. 1 basketball players. That is not counting the international pool, you have players from Australia, Argentina, Brazil, Africa, France, Germany, Lithuania, Russia, China etc.

Players like Manute Bol's son are all over the place, I bet if you saw him playing in the 80's you'd think he was a superstar lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWW26sb_-kU

Whatever a player is capable of doing is relative to the competition around them.

Compare Sabonis and Marjanovic in the Euroleague to each other, keep in mind Marjanovich's competition is much better. Can you really say Sabonis is a better player than a guy like Marjanovich? Marjanovich wasn't getting burned by the great Niko Gallis either lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdxmroMjwnI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94X7oyzlfeY

apalisoc_9

12-02-2015, 03:15 PM

The NFL/NBA have very similar types of athleticism and their athletes actually make physical contact with each other. Again, running in a straight line, jumping straight up, or over hurdles not making physical contact at all, these do not really apply to the athleticism you need in the NBA/NFL as a whole.

You're delusional if you think guys are getting by on "natural" athleticism, they worked HARD for their game and bodies. Don't let their attitudes fool you, they may act like whiny douche bags but that doesn't mean they don't train hard. Players like Lebron, Durant, Griffin, Leonard, Curry, Westbrook, Cousins, etc. have all been training since they were just teenagers while Jordan and the whole Bulls team barely started to receive much of the same training as adults.

Gasol isn't a strong guy? He's 6'11 270+lbs:
http://static01.nyt.com/images/2014/12/01/sports/gasol1/gasol1-blog427.jpg

I bet you probably don't think Matt Bonner is strong either, even though at his 6'10 240+ frame he would've had superior strength and size over most 80's players. You wouldn't be able to stop Bonner in the 80's, he would've lit most teams up with his shooting ability. He could get whatever shot he wanted.

Lol, look at how things stagnated from '70-80. The first strength and conditioning coaches in the NFL were hired in the early to mid 70's with Marinovich being one of the first. He is heavily responsible for the Raider's '76 championship, the same way Grover was heavily responsible for the Bulls' success in the 90's. As more and more teams started to hire S&C coaches you'll notice that by the 80's players weights would start to increase, just like 90's NBA basketball. I'm not sure when NCAA teams started to employ them, that too would have a big impact.

Strength and conditioning coaches were not employed by the NBA until the 90's, Jordan/Pippen had barely lifted weights for a year or two at the most when they played against Bird. Barkley, Olajuwon, Pippen, Jordan all worked with Grover in the 90's. Jordan-Pippen didn't reach their prime playing weights of 220+ until the late 90's.

Johnson played 32 games due to the lockout and wasn't even starting, he was a backup. He was playing PF, but he did pack on like 20lbs, and again, the game has changed since the 90's, it's been 20 years since '95 lol. Johnson would be brought out on the perimeter, isolated or switched against, and would be completely exposed.

Athletes as a whole are superior when you factor in the talent pool, the amount of youth development programs, and the access to proper diet, weight lifting etc. as well as actually pay attention to their skill sets in relation to their size. They worked on their bodies to allow them to do what they needed them to.

You have 6'7 290lb guys running the 100m near speeds that come close to previously set Olympic records, this is pretty damn common in the NFL and even the NBA. If a guy is as agile as you, can run as fast as you, can move as fast as you laterally, but has 50lbs on you, you're fucked. Walker's 100m time was pretty amazing and rare in his time, but it's pretty common in today's NFL, even guys that don't get drafted.

The game has changed dramatically now that it's so perimeter oriented, I can't stress that enough. Players utilize much more lateral movements with all the ball handlers and lack of hand checking, guys are forced to cover more areas of the floor, team defense has changed quite a bit. The farther out on the court you go, the more mobile your players have to be.

The NBA didn't start broadcasting live games on cable until like '84, that's when they marketed the shit out of their stars, Bird, Johnson, Jordan etc. The NBA was still behind sports like the NFL-MLB-Hockey-Baseball-Tennis-Horse racing-Boxing, etc. it was relatively unpopular in America.

Cable tv put basketball on a world stage in the mid-late 80's, that's when the talent pool started to boom. As tv and cable became more affordable and more common in the US, it was put on for a much bigger audience. That had a ripple effect on the NBA-College basketball-High school bball-youth sports.

Right now there are 5.5 million children playing youth basketball in America honing their games from young ages, receiving private coaching, working on their bodies, honing their skills. That 5.5 million gets filtered down to just 550,000 men's HS basketball players, that 550,000 then gets filtered down to the 4,500 Div. 1 basketball players. That is not counting the international pool, you have players from Australia, Argentina, Brazil, Africa, France, Germany, Lithuania, Russia, China etc.

Players like Manute Bol's son are all over the place, I bet if you saw him playing in the 80's you'd think he was a superstar lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWW26sb_-kU

Whatever a player is capable of doing is relative to the competition around them.

Compare Sabonis and Marjanovic in the Euroleague to each other, keep in mind Marjanovich's competition is much better. Can you really say Sabonis is a better player than a guy like Marjanovich? Marjanovich wasn't getting burned by the great Niko Gallis either lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdxmroMjwnI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94X7oyzlfeY

Boom...

spurraider21

12-02-2015, 03:40 PM

comparing boban to sabonis :lmao

lefty

12-02-2015, 03:41 PM

Sabonis was better tbh

lefty

12-02-2015, 03:43 PM

Sabas had great skills

Youg pre-injuries Sabas could run and dunk like Drob.

The whole package, he would have shat on D-Rob, Hakeem, etc if USSR didn't block the move to Portland tbh :wow

And MJ wouldnt have won shit :lol

SUre, Marjanovic could have done that :rollin

spurraider21

12-02-2015, 03:47 PM

washed up sabonis with no knees was a good nba player :lol

Cry Havoc

12-02-2015, 04:08 PM

comparing boban to sabonis :lmao

Sabonis was a 7'3" with better passing than even Timmy and a complete skillset. Dude would be an all-NBA player in today's game, if not a perennial all-star.

KL2

12-02-2015, 04:17 PM

Sabonis was a 7' with better passing than even Timmy. Dude would be an all-NBA player in today's game, if not a perennial all-star.

Watch Marjanovic play in the Euroleague he looked better than Sabonis. Marjanvoic was a gifted passer, an elite post player that could knock down hook shots at will, could knock down jumpers, and he's doing it against better competition.

3:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdxmroMjwnI

If Boban played in the 80's people would be saying he's unstoppable, passing on par with Duncan lol, you can't block those hook shots!

KL2

12-02-2015, 04:19 PM

Cry Havoc

12-02-2015, 04:21 PM

Watch Marjanovic play in the Euroleague he looked better than Sabonis. Marjanvoic was a gifted passer, an elite post player that could knock down hook shots at will, could knock down jumpers, and he's doing it against better competition.

3:50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdxmroMjwnI

If Boban played in the 80's people would be saying he's unstoppable, passing on par with Duncan lol, you can't block those hook shots!

You... do realize that Sabonis played in the late 90s? This isn't some guy from the early 80s you're ripping on, he played into the post-Jordan era and would be even more lethal in today's pace and space offense.

Boban can't even catch a fucking pass for us right now. He has hands reminiscent of Nazr Mohammed.

apalisoc_9

12-02-2015, 04:21 PM

Cry Havoc

12-02-2015, 04:22 PM

Kawhitstorm

12-02-2015, 04:24 PM

http://kaboom-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2204-e1360570798953.jpg

Cry Havoc

12-02-2015, 04:26 PM

http://kaboom-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2204-e1360570798953.jpg

Jackson just wouldn't be able to survive in today's NFL. That mediocre 4.10 40 would just get him tore up by defensive ends these days who run in the high 3.90s.

apalisoc_9

12-02-2015, 04:30 PM

0.5 in sports could be the difference between making it to the pros or not

KL2

12-02-2015, 04:31 PM

You... do realize that Sabonis played in the late 90s? This isn't some guy from the early 80s you're ripping on, he played into the post-Jordan era and would be even more lethal in today's pace and space offense.

Boban can't even catch a fucking pass for us right now. He has hands reminiscent of Nazr Mohammed.

Boban is being harassed by extremely powerful, explosive, and agile players, his shot can be blocked at any time, he's under a ton of pressure out there. If he was playing in the Euroleague he'd still be dominating.

What a player is capable of doing is relative to their competition. You put a player like Bonner at 240+ in the 80's-early 90's, he's going to be one of the largest players in the league, his post game, shooting, 3 ball would all be unstoppable because his size would be be elite for that time.

The 10's are currently catching up to the 00's like the 00's had to catch up with the 90's, the future is bright, it takes time for the new generation to surpass the old, players take years to get into their primes and develop physically. Leonard-Curry-Porzingis-Wiggins-Giannis-Cousins-Drummond-Whiteside-Davis-Lillard, etc. there are a ton of future stars in this league still developing.

KL2

12-02-2015, 04:36 PM

http://kaboom-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/2204-e1360570798953.jpg

The NFL and NCAA football employed strength and conditioning coaches far earlier than the NBA in the 70's, the NBA didn't start until the 90's, Jordan was the godfather, they were in on it way before the NBA. Comparing early early 70's NFL players to mid 80's-90's NFL players is a better comparison.

Cry Havoc

12-02-2015, 04:37 PM

Bonner

his post game

I fucking lol'ed.

You've already been ethered in this thread, so now I assume you just have to be trolling and thus it's not worth it to respond any longer. :lol

Kawhitstorm

12-02-2015, 04:40 PM

Jackson just wouldn't be able to survive in today's NFL. That mediocre 4.10 40 would just get him tore up by defensive ends these days who run in the high 3.90s.

Tell that to Adrian Peterson who has a 4.40 & is same size as Bo.

apalisoc_9

12-02-2015, 04:41 PM

Bonner would be a superstar in the 80s

KL2

12-02-2015, 04:43 PM

I fucking lol'ed.

You've already been ethered in this thread, so now I assume you just have to be trolling and thus it's not worth it to respond any longer. :lol

240lbs puts Bonner in elite territory weight wise in the 80's, players would't be able to handle his size lmao.

I like how you ignored the great Nikos Gallis shitting on Sabonis, Marjanovich looked much better in against even better international competition lmfao.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94X7oyzlfeY

Cry Havoc

12-02-2015, 04:43 PM

Tell that to Adrian Peterson who has a 4.40 & is same size as Bo.

That was sarcasm. Bo has one of the 3 fastest 40 times in NFL history.

Kawhitstorm

12-02-2015, 04:44 PM

The NFL and NCAA football employed strength and conditioning coaches far earlier than the NBA in the 70's, the NBA didn't start until the 90's, Jordan was the godfather, they were in on it way before the NBA. Comparing early early 70's NFL players to mid 80's-90's NFL players is a better comparison.

Manu/Tony barely lift (same with Tim for the most part) & they were all All-NBA players in the 21st century.

KL2

12-02-2015, 04:59 PM

Manu/Tony barely lift (same with Tim for the most part) & they were all All-NBA players in the 21st century.

They've all had their careers extended with the help of strength and conditioning coaches which weren't employed until Jordan and the Bulls first utilized them and destroyed the league, the Spurs' medical staff have done a great job keeping our guys healthy. In the 80's strength and conditioning coaches were almost nonexistent aside of like 1, players were pretty much on their own when it came to nutrition and weight lifting.

Every single player now has access to private coaching unlike before, it sort of just falls into your lap now unlike before where players had do everything on their own. Some guys gain weight, others drop it, Duncan is a great example of a player late in his career losing weight to help his knees. Even Love dropped down from 270lbs to the 240's, Drummond was like 300lbs in college, dropped down to 280 in the pros, Marc Gasol was like 300+ in Europe and dropped down to 270 in the pros.

How many times have you ever heard of a 80s or 90s player shedding weight like that? Players are always changing their weights, whatever works best for them, Gay got up to 240+ to play small ball PF, dropped back down to the 230+ range to play SF with the Kings.

140

12-02-2015, 05:11 PM

BREAKING: traning methods and sports nutrition have evolved since the 80's

Brazil

12-02-2015, 05:55 PM

Boom...

:lol Boom....

ya that's convincing

ambchang

12-02-2015, 09:46 PM

Watch Marjanovic play in the Euroleague he looked better than Sabonis. Marjanvoic was a gifted passer, an elite post player that could knock down hook shots at will, could knock down jumpers, and he's doing it against better competition.

3:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdxmroMjwnI

If Boban played in the 80's people would be saying he's unstoppable, passing on par with Duncan lol, you can't block those hook shots!

Sabonis is Russian. How come he didn't get those eastern bloc training methods that would allow him to be the athletic equivalents of today's uber athletes?

midnightpulp

12-02-2015, 10:07 PM

The great Niko Gallis, Jordan of Europe dominated Sabonis.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/%CE%9D%CE%AF%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%93%CE%BA%CE%AC% CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82.jpg/180px-%CE%9D%CE%AF%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%93%CE%BA%CE%AC% CE%BB%CE%B7%CF%82.jpg

This 5th grade girl has better handles than most 80's players tbh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1NTClDGzGI

This is why it's useless debating with you. Any "modern" video clip of a basketball player doing something you'll retardedly overrate. There's nothing special about her dribbling. And her jumpshot is laughably shit. The clips I posted of Hakeem's ball handling (clips from the 80's) are far, far superior. Although the comparison is unfair obviously.

:lol Reverse Nostalgia fans
:lol Retardedly irrational
:lol Boban

BTW, Boban didn't play against "superior" competition (was his European competition superior? Sure. But who cares. European basketball is the shittiest from a defensive standpoint. Then and now). A no knees Sabonis played in the NBA and averaged 14.5 and .545 shooting as a rookie in '96 (one year before Duncan came into the league), during a period when the center position was much bigger overall and more athletic. Maybe Boban has some potential, but until he becomes a decent rotation player, I'd hold off on making silly comparisons.

Anyhow, we're never going to agree. Although we do agree there has been an evolution, we just don't agree on the extent of that evolution. I see a logical, reasonable progression (on both the skill and athletic side) over the past 20-30 years, nothing so revolutionary that automatically makes players from past eras amateur by comparison (and the evidence backs me with how players progress as the sport progresses). When I watch an NBA or NFL game, I see the results of that reasonable progression.

What you see is this:

http://img12.deviantart.net/ae79/i/2013/019/3/2/the_avengers_dream_team_wallpaper_v_4_by_lesajt-d59wkw3.jpg

midnightpulp

12-02-2015, 10:47 PM

The NFL/NBA have very similar types of athleticism and their athletes actually make physical contact with each other. Again, running in a straight line, jumping straight up, or over hurdles not making physical contact at all, these do not really apply to the athleticism you need in the NBA/NFL as a whole.

You're delusional if you think guys are getting by on "natural" athleticism, they worked HARD for their game and bodies. Don't let their attitudes fool you, they may act like whiny douche bags but that doesn't mean they don't train hard. Players like Lebron, Durant, Griffin, Leonard, Curry, Westbrook, Cousins, etc. have all been training since they were just teenagers while Jordan and the whole Bulls team barely started to receive much of the same training as adults.

I know they worked hard. But what you continually fail to understand is that "athleticism" is 99.99% the result of genetics, and unless Professor X is around creating mutants, that genetic hard-wiring hasn't changed. What can be changed and changed dramatically through hard work is skills. And skills can be learned, meaning there is no magical barrier preventing veteran players from evolving their skill sets to keep up. Bird did it into the early 90's, and might've played until 96/97 if he was healthier. Pick any professional player in any sport, track their 15-20 year careers, and see the adjustment. Jerry Rice wasn't suddenly shit when the NFL was moving toward the taller receivers in the Randy Moss/Terrell Owens mold. In '02, he was a Pro Bowler and caught 92 passes for over 1300 yards at 40 years old.

Like I keep saying, you ascribe this era magical properties for some odd reason.

I bet you probably don't think Matt Bonner is strong either, even though at his 6'10 240+ frame he would've had superior strength and size over most 80's players. You wouldn't be able to stop Bonner in the 80's, he would've lit most teams up with his shooting ability. He could get whatever shot he wanted.

Evidence? You have none. Again, this fascination with weights and size. I already debunked that silly Reverse Nostalgia fan pov in an earlier post. Meanwhile I appeal to the very real evidence of older players adjusting to new demands. You can't get around Bird being an all-star level player in '92 (the height of basketball athleticism and skills at the time) or a crippled Magic averaging 14, 7, 6 in '96 (a year before Duncan came into the league). Or Karl Malone, choker as he was, adjusting. You flat ignore these facts because it demolishes your whole argument of 80's players being inherently inferior to your modern Avengers.

Lol, look at how things stagnated from '70-80. The first strength and conditioning coaches in the NFL were hired in the early to mid 70's with Marinovich being one of the first. He is heavily responsible for the Raider's '76 championship, the same way Grover was heavily responsible for the Bulls' success in the 90's. As more and more teams started to hire S&C coaches you'll notice that by the 80's players weights would start to increase, just like 90's NBA basketball.

That's exactly my point. You finally got it. Players adjust over time, and that "over time" doesn't happen suddenly. Paradigm shifts don't happen overnight. Bird would smoothly have adjusted from the 80's into the 00's (let's say we cut out the 90's). Given his obsessive work ethic, he would gain weight and train up his explosiveness (Bird was deceptively athletic, like Duncan) and other traits if he needed to. Basketball is still very simple and the single most important skill for any player to have is footwork. You have good footwork, you can get any shot you want most of the time. And after that (for a player like Bird), your jumpshot mechanics. Matt Bonner is shit in both, and it's a miracle he's as a good of shooter he is with that release. Bird's release/mechanics were about technically perfect. He was able to post up taller players like Tom Chambers (who was long and a quick leaper) rather effortlessly. Pippen, Jordan, etc couldn't bother Bird's shot. But this era he's Adam Morrison. No. Not a shred of evidence supports that claim.

Once you jettison your Reverse Nostalgia fan bias, you'll see things more rationally. I know the Nostalgia fans bother you, but that doesn't mean you have to become as equally retarded with your takes.

KL2

12-03-2015, 09:43 PM

I know they worked hard. But what you continually fail to understand is that "athleticism" is 99.99% the result of genetics, and unless Professor X is around creating mutants, that genetic hard-wiring hasn't changed. What can be changed and changed dramatically through hard work is skills. And skills can be learned, meaning there is no magical barrier preventing veteran players from evolving their skill sets to keep up. Bird did it into the early 90's, and might've played until 96/97 if he was healthier. Pick any professional player in any sport, track their 15-20 year careers, and see the adjustment. Jerry Rice wasn't suddenly shit when the NFL was moving toward the taller receivers in the Randy Moss/Terrell Owens mold. In '02, he was a Pro Bowler and caught 92 passes for over 1300 yards at 40 years old.

Like I keep saying, you ascribe this era magical properties for some odd reason.

Players adapt due to experience, that's their advantage over younger players, Parker-Duncan-Manu aren't as good as they used to be, but they've picked up plenty of veteran moves, their bodies are older (which they have maintained) but their bball iq is much higher. They've been playing this sport for 10+ years while the newer generation takes time to develop, you're impatient and expect too much too early.

That goes for any sport, I've seen gold medal winning Olympic boxers dropped against journeymen simply because the vet knows the craft better, he's been doing it a lot longer so it comes naturally to him.

Evidence? You have none. Again, this fascination with weights and size. I already debunked that silly Reverse Nostalgia fan pov in an earlier post. Meanwhile I appeal to the very real evidence of older players adjusting to new demands. You can't get around Bird being an all-star level player in '92 (the height of basketball athleticism and skills at the time) or a crippled Magic averaging 14, 7, 6 in '96 (a year before Duncan came into the league). Or Karl Malone, choker as he was, adjusting. You flat ignore these facts because it demolishes your whole argument of 80's players being inherently inferior to your modern Avengers.

Not really lmao, why are you ignoring the fact that you were referring to the rookie weights of players? Jordan and Pippen were not 220+ like they were in the late 90's, Jordan was in the low 200's, Pippen in the 212lb range.

The graphs you provided also proved my point regarding the NFL, things started to stagnate early 70's, strength and conditioning coaches are hired mid 70's, things start to boom. You assumed both the NBA and NFL hired S&C coaches at the same time, they didn't. Compare 60's to early 70's players weights to the mid 90's and you'll see the true effect on the NFL.

That's exactly my point. You finally got it. Players adjust over time, and that "over time" doesn't happen suddenly. Paradigm shifts don't happen overnight. Bird would smoothly have adjusted from the 80's into the 00's (let's say we cut out the 90's). Given his obsessive work ethic, he would gain weight and train up his explosiveness (Bird was deceptively athletic, like Duncan) and other traits if he needed to. Basketball is still very simple and the single most important skill for any player to have is footwork. You have good footwork, you can get any shot you want most of the time. And after that (for a player like Bird), your jumpshot mechanics. Matt Bonner is shit in both, and it's a miracle he's as a good of shooter he is with that release. Bird's release/mechanics were about technically perfect. He was able to post up taller players like Tom Chambers (who was long and a quick leaper) rather effortlessly. Pippen, Jordan, etc couldn't bother Bird's shot. But this era he's Adam Morrison. No. Not a shred of evidence supports that claim.

Once you jettison your Reverse Nostalgia fan bias, you'll see things more rationally. I know the Nostalgia fans bother you, but that doesn't mean you have to become as equally retarded with your takes.

It's been 20+ years since Bird retired, the talent pool, youth development programs, strength and conditioning programs etc. have come a looooong way. It's time to let go, Bird played in a talent pool of tens of thousands to a few hundred thousand atm late in his career, players today are competing with millions, it's no contest.

Compare Marjanovic and Sabonis to each other in the Euro-league, tell me who looked better lol. If Marjanovic was playing in the 80's, you'd be telling me his offense was unstoppable. You're really naive if you believe guys don't master the fundamentals, they do, it just gets overruled in the NBA due to superior athleticism. Guys that are in the league with shit fundamentals are there because they killed the rest of the competition with their athleticism. There is a reason why there is such a big decline in white american bball, they are some of the best fundamental bball players, but it ultimately fails against the league's athletes.

Players like Splitter and Marjanovic were elite offensive players in Europe, they could post, pass, even knock down jumpers.

ambchang

12-03-2015, 10:14 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRVJ-ttZb6o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-OdHyp2cwY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWelUNrJUMM Jumped OVER a guy from about 13 feet out, and made a finger roll right at the rim.

Big men in the 80s don't have any skills :(

So not athletic.

The best center for a big part of the last decade, Dwight Howard, can't even make a FT and has horrible post moves. :lol

midnightpulp

12-03-2015, 11:05 PM

Players adapt due to experience, that's their advantage over younger players, Parker-Duncan-Manu aren't as good as they used to be, but they've picked up plenty of veteran moves, their bodies are older (which they have maintained) but their bball iq is much higher. They've been playing this sport for 10+ years while the newer generation takes time to develop, you're impatient and expect too much too early.

That goes for any sport, I've seen gold medal winning Olympic boxers dropped against journeymen simply because the vet knows the craft better, he's been doing it a lot longer so it comes naturally to him.

You're getting it some more. Sports are more than jumping high, cutting quickly, and running fast. They're are primarily based around skills and intelligence. So many super athletes wash out of professional leagues because they are limited in both.

Not really lmao, why are you ignoring the fact that you were referring to the rookie weights of players? Jordan and Pippen were not 220+ like they were in the late 90's, Jordan was in the low 200's, Pippen in the 212lb range.

I don't care about their weights in the 80's. Point is, if they got bigger over time, so would Bird or Magic or any other player who need to get bigger. I cite Bird's progression into the early 90's as evidence of him adjusting to new demands and still being an all-star level player. Also, Jordan and Pippen were both worse players in the late 90's compared to the early 90's, and the late 90's was one of the weakest eras in NBA history with expansion diluting everything and the focus moved to isolation play. The early 90's were actually more demanding to play in, and Bird excelled all things considered (bad back, age, etc).

What evidence do you have that Bird couldn't adjust to the modern era? Because Willie Cauley-Stein is somewhat mobile for his size? It's funny how you think you're being "contrarian" but this argument existed in the mid-90's after Bird and Magic (before his comeback) retired. "Bird and Magic could never hang with the super athletes of today!" Shit, that argument existed in the 80's when Bird was winning MVPs. No one believed he could be that good. Isiah Thomas even called him overrated during the era (and then Bird proceeded to smoke the Pistons something fierce).

The graphs you provided also proved my point regarding the NFL, things started to stagnate early 70's, strength and conditioning coaches are hired mid 70's, things start to boom. You assumed both the NBA and NFL hired S&C coaches at the same time, they didn't. Compare 60's to early 70's players weights to the mid 90's and you'll see the true effect on the NFL.

Learn how to read a graph. Those graphs pretty much show a steady, linear progression, with the exception of o-linemen. Additionally, it pretty much flatlined over over the past 2 decades.

It's been 20+ years since Bird retired, the talent pool, youth development programs, strength and conditioning programs etc. have come a looooong way. It's time to let go, Bird played in a talent pool of tens of thousands to a few hundred thousand atm late in his career, players today are competing with millions, it's no contest.

Good players can adjust to any talent pool demands. The biggest leap in this regard was more league integration and the merger, and older vets from those earlier periods weren't instantly rendered obsolete. I'd also argue that youth development is much worse, especially in the US. Basketball camps and such used to teach things, now they're just glorified advertising. And AAU ball is a massive joke. If Kawhi played in the 80's to 90's, he would have come into the league with all the skills he has now. Lucky he was drafted by the Spurs, or he probably would've wound up a Shane Battier level player.

Compare Marjanovic and Sabonis to each other in the Euro-league, tell me who looked better lol. If Marjanovic was playing in the 80's, you'd be telling me his offense was unstoppable. You're really naive if you believe guys don't master the fundamentals, they do, it just gets overruled in the NBA due to superior athleticism. Guys that are in the league with shit fundamentals are there because they killed the rest of the competition with their athleticism. There is a reason why there is such a big decline in white american bball, they are some of the best fundamental bball players, but it ultimately fails against the league's athletes.

Players like Splitter and Marjanovic were elite offensive players in Europe, they could post, pass, even knock down jumpers.

Watch Boban and Sabonis in the NBA, and tell me who looked better :lol

Sabonis was having to deal with Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mutombo, Robinson/Duncan, Mourning, Smits, etc. Boban gets to see 3rd string centers.

For all of the great fundamental offense European players have, their defensive fundamentals are stuck in the 70's. Real talk. They play defense with their hands. It's why players with bad offensive fundamentals (rare for a Euro player typically) can dominate, like Splitter with that laughable post game of his.

White American players aren't that fundamental outside of shooting mechanics. If the AAU/NCAA knew what they were doing, we'd see more white American players like Dirk, prime Peja Pau, and Manu.

Oh, and the proliferation of European players (who are the same ethnic stock as white Americans), pretty much proves that great fundamentals can overcome inferior athleticism. The player most similar to Bird in playing style (sans playmaking and post game), size, and athleticism is Peja, and he wasn't a "Adam Morrison."

james evans

12-03-2015, 11:08 PM

Jordan
TD
kareem
Aids
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem
kobe
Wade/dirk/kg

Tbh
WHAT???? U got those guys over bird? Have you ever seen Bird play in his prime and not just youtube highlights?

KL2

12-04-2015, 04:20 PM

You're getting it some more. Sports are more than jumping high, cutting quickly, and running fast. They're are primarily based around skills and intelligence. So many super athletes wash out of professional leagues because they are limited in both.

Not really, players are skilled, but a lot of their skills just get overruled by NBA athleticism. Sometimes there is just nothing you can do when a guy is jumping over you, if you've ever played ball, you'd know this. There are over 5 million kids playing youth basketball in the U.S, you don't think they're learning the fundamentals of the game?

The 80's back to the basket game and hand checking means you didn't really need to be explosive because the game is so close to the basket, skill sets have changed drastically and you need explosiveness to make the most out of them, they pretty much go hand in hand. A perimeter oriented league forces you further out on the floor, mobility is a must or else you'll get picked apart like Duncan.

It's different chasing a guy around the perimeter at those weights, cutting at those weights, fighting through screens set by 265 PFs and not 215lb PF's, posting up against players that big etc.

I don't care about their weights in the 80's. Point is, if they got bigger over time, so would Bird or Magic or any other player who need to get bigger. I cite Bird's progression into the early 90's as evidence of him adjusting to new demands and still being an all-star level player. Also, Jordan and Pippen were both worse players in the late 90's compared to the early 90's, and the late 90's was one of the weakest eras in NBA history with expansion diluting everything and the focus moved to isolation play. The early 90's were actually more demanding to play in, and Bird excelled all things considered (bad back, age, etc).

Most players did not start lifting until the 90's though, Pippen was still a 212lb stick when he played Bird. In fact Horace Grant was on Bird quite a bit, and although he was a big man, he too was barely in the 215lb range and not the 240lb player that played in the late 90's...But you don't care about their weight, don't care about talent pool, doesn't matter lmao.

Jordan and Pippen didn't get worse, the competition got better, these guys were in the 220's late in their careers. The talent pool exploded in the mid to late 80's, got much bigger in the 90's, got even bigger in the 00's. The rate at which the talent pool is expanded is not the same during Bird's time, and it's due in a large part to cable tv.

Humans sort of have something called muscle memory, ever heard of it? In any profession after a certain amount of time movements that you've been repeating start to become effortless and automatic. Vets adapt because they've been playing for a looooong time, it takes time for the newer generation to learn and surpass. Their bodies may not be the same as they were in their primes, but some of their decisions and skills drastically improve.

What evidence do you have that Bird couldn't adjust to the modern era? Because Willie Cauley-Stein is somewhat mobile for his size? It's funny how you think you're being "contrarian" but this argument existed in the mid-90's after Bird and Magic (before his comeback) retired. "Bird and Magic could never hang with the super athletes of today!" Shit, that argument existed in the 80's when Bird was winning MVPs. No one believed he could be that good. Isiah Thomas even called him overrated during the era (and then Bird proceeded to smoke the Pistons something fierce).

Bird would've been a tweener in today's game, do you really think he would be able to guard the likes of Leonard, PG, Lebron, Durant etc? You most likely would've had to put him at PF, but at at his weight he would've gotten bullied.

Cauely Stein is some-what mobile for his size? He can go out on the perimeter and stay with guards at 245lbs, show me 80's bigs his size and that mobile, he weighs the same as Patrick Ewing lmao. Show me 240lb players like Leonard going deep out on the perimeter and challenging guards, I want to see their explosiveness.

Learn how to read a graph. Those graphs pretty much show a steady, linear progression, with the exception of o-linemen. Additionally, it pretty much flatlined over over the past 2 decades.

Compare the mid 90's NFL to the '65-'75 NFL period which you saw the graph flat line pre-S&C coaches, that's more reflective of the 70's-80's NBA. There is a drastic difference during that time. You assumed both the NBA and NFL hired them at the same time, but they didn't.

But even then, guys are losing/gaining weight based on way the game is currently being played at their position, RB's are probably becoming more compact because it allows them to hit the holes easier, those graphs do not represent how explosive guys are in relation to their weights. A player may be dropping fat but adding muscle, you can't tell from just a graph.

Good players can adjust to any talent pool demands. The biggest leap in this regard was more league integration and the merger, and older vets from those earlier periods weren't instantly rendered obsolete. I'd also argue that youth development is much worse, especially in the US. Basketball camps and such used to teach things, now they're just glorified advertising. And AAU ball is a massive joke. If Kawhi played in the 80's to 90's, he would have come into the league with all the skills he has now. Lucky he was drafted by the Spurs, or he probably would've wound up a Shane Battier level player.

Vets don't just stop getting better as I covered earlier, you get worse in some areas, get better in others. You also generally take on a different role as your career goes on which usually makes the game much easier on you. Magic was playing PF off the bench in his return during a lockout shortened year, he wasn't starting at PG like he was in his prime. Duncan isn't carrying those crappy 00's teams anymore or facing teams like the '07 Cavs, his current role isn't even half of what it used to be.

Almost any young AAU player that plans on taking bball seriously will get some sort of private coaching like Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin, etc. This kid already is at 12, he'll probably be a future star, you think players like Bird or Johnson had this type of competition when they were kids? This is pretty common stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjPNPTcxz1I

Watch Boban and Sabonis in the NBA, and tell me who looked better :lol

Sabonis was having to deal with Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Mutombo, Robinson/Duncan, Mourning, Smits, etc. Boban gets to see 3rd string centers.

3rd stringers now>>>then lmao, the whole NBA has gotten better, I bet you don't even remember most 80s-90's back ups or 3rd stringers for that matter. Marjanovic's game probably would've done very well in the 90's, he's a cut 290lbs not a fat 290 like Sabonis. His size and length would've given plenty in the post trouble, wouldn't be a liability on the perimeter, you could've had him camping in the paint the whole game.

Marjanovic could post up, knock down jumpers, make amazing passes in the Euroleague, but he can't in the NBA lol. Why is that? Why doesn't his skill translate? I mean one minute he's skilled, then next he's not? Sabonis wasn't better than him in the Euroleague even when he returned as an NBA player. I don't get it, did international competition used to be better too? What about college competition, it was better as well?

He's 7-3 and getting the shots he wants, but he's not making them like he was in the Euroleague even when poorly contested, what happened to his passing ability too?

For all of the great fundamental offense European players have, their defensive fundamentals are stuck in the 70's. Real talk. They play defense with their hands. It's why players with bad offensive fundamentals (rare for a Euro player typically) can dominate, like Splitter with that laughable post game of his.

White American players aren't that fundamental outside of shooting mechanics. If the AAU/NCAA knew what they were doing, we'd see more white American players like Dirk, prime Peja Pau, and Manu.

Oh, and the proliferation of European players (who are the same ethnic stock as white Americans), pretty much proves that great fundamentals can overcome inferior athleticism. The player most similar to Bird in playing style (sans playmaking and post game), size, and athleticism is Peja, and he wasn't a "Adam Morrison."

If a guy like Muscala played in the 80's he would've most likely been at the very least an all star, solid fundamentals all around, could play both sides of the bal,Guys like these are a dime a dozen in college, even the NBA, but most of their skills ultimately fail due to superior athleticism around them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtGdt51d96A

European players join professional ball clubs at young ages, players like Peja, Parker, Diaw, Dirk, etc. turned pro at young ages (Peja 16, Parker 15, Dirk 16), I'm like 90% sure most European schools don't have basketball, you actually have to go out and find a pro club that will sign you. These European players are developing their games against grown ass professionals, they're thrown straight into the fire.

International ball now>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>80s-90's international ball. The talent pool is in the millions, it's not the tens of thousands Bird competed with growing up in the 60s-70s.

It wouldn't reach worldwide popularity until the mid 80's when Stern started marketing the game around his stars thanks to the 1984 cable act. That's when cable became widespread in the US and put the NBA not just in front of millions of Americans, but on a world stage where kids like Ginobili could stay up late, watch and emulate their favorite players.

midnightpulp

12-04-2015, 06:23 PM

Not really, players are skilled, but a lot of their skills just get overruled by NBA athleticism. Sometimes there is just nothing you can do when a guy is jumping over you, if you've ever played ball, you'd know this. There are over 5 million kids playing youth basketball in the U.S, you don't think they're learning the fundamentals of the game?

The 80's back to the basket game and hand checking means you didn't really need to be explosive because the game is so close to the basket, skill sets have changed drastically and you need explosiveness to make the most out of them, they pretty much go hand in hand. A perimeter oriented league forces you further out on the floor, mobility is a must or else you'll get picked apart like Duncan.

You can only really dominate through sheer athleticism at the high-school/AAU levels and to an extent, the college level. I can name more super athletes that washed out of the NBA than this forum has bandwidth. Knowledge and skills will always trump "pure" athleticism in pretty much every sport. Take Draymond Green. 4 year player, not highly scouted because of his underwhelming athleticism. Even his lateral quickness was rated poor. 33" vert and undersized (6'6" without shoes). But one aspect of his game his coaches at MSU talked up was his "aptitude." Inexplicably, Draymond has emerged as one of the best players in the league. You'll probably say something about his weight, but that's my point, a player can always put on weight. Bird, or any other player, would do so. Kawhi is a similar player with comparatively underwhelming athleticism that is scoring through his superior skills (footwork, which learned. Shooting mechanics, which he learned. Floor positioning [always being in the right spot for the best shot. Think Ray Allen]). I know you love Kawhi, but he's not all that athletic by even 80's standards. His length is elite, though, and helps with his athletic shortcomings.

It's different chasing a guy around the perimeter at those weights, cutting at those weights, fighting through screens set by 265 PFs and not 215lb PF's, posting up against players that big etc.

The league isn't that much heaver. About 7 pounds heavier right now than in the mid-80's.

Most players did not start lifting until the 90's though, Pippen was still a 212lb stick when he played Bird. In fact Horace Grant was on Bird quite a bit, and although he was a big man, he too was barely in the 215lb range and not the 240lb player that played in the late 90's...But you don't care about their weight, don't care about talent pool, doesn't matter lmao.

I don't care, because weight is something that can be put on. There's nothing magical about. And you overrate the talent pool depth. Yes, the NBA exploded worldwide post Dream Team. And guess what? Those pre-Dream Team NBA players weren't rendered suddenly ineffective as the game went more global. Karl Malone is a good example of player who played over 3 different eras: 80's high tempo, 90's isoball, "Global Era." He was still a 20ppg scorer at 39 in '03. Is there where you say Dirk and Gasol's bodies "didn't fill out yet?" :lmao

Reggie Miller was also another player who played across all those eras. Adjusted fine.

Jordan and Pippen didn't get worse, the competition got better, these guys were in the 220's late in their careers. The talent pool exploded in the mid to late 80's, got much bigger in the 90's, got even bigger in the 00's. The rate at which the talent pool is expanded is not the same during Bird's time, and it's due in a large part to cable tv.

Jordan didn't get worse :lmao

Pippen about stayed the same from 92-96.

Players typically start declining after 30. Go read Nate Silver's player projections. Funny thing is, Karl Malone got better :lol

Humans sort of have something called muscle memory, ever heard of it? In any profession after a certain amount of time movements that you've been repeating start to become effortless and automatic. Vets adapt because they've been playing for a looooong time, it takes time for the newer generation to learn and surpass. Their bodies may not be the same as they were in their primes, but some of their decisions and skills drastically improve.

You just proved my point that learned skills and knowledge can compensate for lack of athleticism. Exactly. You're getting it again.

And I totally acknowledge the new generation surpasses (generally) the previous generations, but not by some retarded, totally irrational margin. My estimate stands at 10% improvement per generation (provided the sport stays relevant). You think the next generation turns into mutants. Even your Reverse Nostalgia fan partner-in-crime Apa thinks players will be dunking from the 3 point line in 20 years. That's an impossibility.

Bird would've been a tweener in today's game, do you really think he would be able to guard the likes of Leonard, PG, Lebron, Durant etc? You most likely would've had to put him at PF, but at at his weight he would've gotten bullied.

Draymond Green is also a tweener. They also measured players barefoot back then as opposed to shoes today. Bird would measure out at 6'10". He can always put on weight, but he's probably a PF in the vein of Kevin Love today. Here's Bird standing about 2" over the "6'9" Paul George.

http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/iBpIfMefNEdVKJ75b7uNWw--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztmaT1maWxsO2g9Mzc3O2lsPXBsYW 5lO3B4b2ZmPTUwO3B5b2ZmPTA7cT03NTt3PTY3MA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/publish-images/sports/2015-03-23/0f729510-d194-11e4-b4b4-cdd9a1e4637f_LBPG32315.jpg

You underestimate how big Bird really was. A 6'10"/6'11" player (that's what he'd measure today) with that shooting ability, post game, passing ability, b-ball IQ, would excel in today's game. How can you argue against it? Weight? He'd put it on. Athleticism? Bird wasn't unathletic.

Cauely Stein is some-what mobile for his size? He can go out on the perimeter and stay with guards at 245lbs, show me 80's bigs his size and that mobile, he weighs the same as Patrick Ewing lmao. Show me 240lb players like Leonard going deep out on the perimeter and challenging guards, I want to see their explosiveness.

Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson. I also don't see Willie Cauley-Bust hanging with too many guards. And no, he isn't as big as Ewing. See above about how they measured players. Paul George 6'9" :lmao

A lot of 80's bigs were legit 7 footers. Stein is probably a PF in the 80's and 90's. I agree wings have gotten more athletic. But 80's players like Pippen and Rodman could go out deep and guard PGs, even after they put on "weight."

Here's "7 footer" our very own Tim Duncan standing next to 6'9" Bill Russell:

http://cache1.asset-cache.net/gc/450689318-tim-duncan-of-the-san-antonio-spurs-and-gettyimages.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=GkZZ8bf5zL1ZiijUmxa7QSctYkEAHsQKbFgCv%2BGGaFtTwh ntL2SwF1jiM3ZhYnFoQpbgbiQ6eT3mMh9ZXCiA%2FFQiMXKs4V 8IVxpsaJAA5odCXjeJHcrPjytKk8fE4Rle

Compare the mid 90's NFL to the '65-'75 NFL period which you saw the graph flat line pre-S&C coaches, that's more reflective of the 70's-80's NBA. There is a drastic difference during that time. You assumed both the NBA and NFL hired them at the same time, but they didn't.

https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d476b11470c13e309e5c111f139fe247?convert_to_webp=t rue

You didn't carefully look at the graph, and only considered linemen.

Let's see how weights progressed in the other positions:

Wide Receivers:

Oh, weights actually declined during your strength and conditioning era, flatlining for about 15 years. :lol

Today, wide receiver weight is back to where it was in the late 60's.

Running backs (look closely at the chart). It follows nearly the exact same path. A bump early, a regression, a flat line, and then a progression. Also, it's not like these weight increases are "revolutionary." Anywhere from 5-10 pounds either way.

TEs and Linebackers also follow the same exact pattern.

When you consider the weight progression since the 1950's, it's not this dramatic evolution outside of the linemen. And the reason for lineman gain is strategic. In the past, it was a more athletic position.

And as I said, we've stagnated since the 90's. No mutants.

But even then, guys are losing/gaining weight based on way the game is currently being played at their position, RB's are probably becoming more compact because it allows them to hit the holes easier, those graphs do not represent how explosive guys are in relation to their weights. A player may be dropping fat but adding muscle, you can't tell from just a graph.

I can tell from combine results. WRs and RBs and LBs, etc aren't anymore explosive and athletic now than they were then. I'm sure there has been very marginal gains (1-2%), but nothing mutant level. Nothing that would make 80's/90's players obsolete. See: Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Chris Carter, Emmitt Smith, etc.

Vets don't just stop getting better as I covered earlier, you get worse in some areas, get better in others. You also generally take on a different role as your career goes on which usually makes the game much easier on you. Magic was playing PF off the bench in his return during a lockout shortened year, he wasn't starting at PG like he was in his prime. Duncan isn't carrying those crappy 00's teams anymore or facing teams like the '07 Cavs, his current role isn't even half of what it used to be.

Yeah, that might have something to do with Magic and Duncan being 36 (with HIV) and 40. But the very fact they can still be high level players (a good bench player is a high level player) proves my case. You actually think if you gave Magic his prime back in '96, he wouldn't be an MVP candidate? Or give Duncan his '03 form back, he wouldn't be able to shit on Willie Cauley-Bust and DeMonkey? :lol

Almost any young AAU player that plans on taking bball seriously will get some sort of private coaching like Steph Curry, Kevin Durant, Blake Griffin, etc. This kid already is at 12, he'll probably be a future star, you think players like Bird or Johnson had this type of competition when they were kids? This is pretty common stuff.

Too bad that private coaching doesn't translate into a good fundamentals a majority of the time. Why do you think Europeans have considerably closed the gap on African American ball players over the past 20 years? Like I said, players used to come into the league with polished skillsets from NCAA basketball. Now the NCAA is largely a mercenary league with recruiting strategy that has shifted from building a program (you'd recruit freshman on their potential to be stars in their later years) to recruiting the best athletes who then enter the NBA as "projects." Why do you think Porzingis is the best rookie? That is how an NCAA player used to look like with regard to skillset.

Bird and Magic didn't face competition like that probably. But there were athletes then just as there are now. Like I said, all these fancy training methods only improve athleticism by marginal amounts. And as I've shown, skills/knowledge can compensate. Bird was practically crippled in '92. Still put up solid numbers during a very athletic period.

3rd stringers now>>>then lmao, the whole NBA has gotten better, I bet you don't even remember most 80s-90's back ups or 3rd stringers for that matter. Marjanovic's game probably would've done very well in the 90's, he's a cut 290lbs not a fat 290 like Sabonis. His size and length would've given plenty in the post trouble, wouldn't be a liability on the perimeter, you could've had him camping in the paint the whole game.

Marjanovic could post up, knock down jumpers, make amazing passes in the Euroleague, but he can't in the NBA lol. Why is that? Why doesn't his skill translate? I mean one minute he's skilled, then next he's not? Sabonis wasn't better than him in the Euroleague even when he returned as an NBA player. I don't get it, did international competition used to be better too? What about college competition, it was better as well?

He's 7-3 and getting the shots he wants, but he's not making them like he was in the Euroleague even when poorly contested, what happened to his passing ability too?

Don't know. Too small a sample size to evaluate Boban just yet. I don't think he achieves more than Sabonis in the 90's, though. The center position was much better.

And calling Sabonis fat disqualifies your opinion on him. It's obvious you didn't see him play nor even closely looked at a picture of him.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5e/d8/f5/5ed8f5a1966c5a75a6f15175299dd7ec.jpg

Younger:

http://esperanto-ondo.ru/Lo-bildoj/242dec-19sabonis.jpg

Boban has better muscle definition, but he's not as thick or as stout as Sabonis.

If a guy like Muscala played in the 80's he would've most likely been at the very least an all star, solid fundamentals all around, could play both sides of the bal,Guys like these are a dime a dozen in college, even the NBA, but most of their skills ultimately fail due to superior athleticism around them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtGdt51d96A

I see a pretty bad post game and footwork there. He's not a star in the 80's. Maybe a rotation player, at best.

European players join professional ball clubs at young ages, players like Peja, Parker, Diaw, Dirk, etc. turned pro at young ages (Peja 16, Parker 15, Dirk 16), I'm like 90% sure most European schools don't have basketball, you actually have to go out and find a pro club that will sign you. These European players are developing their games against grown ass professionals, they're thrown straight into the fire.

Yes. Getting it some more. And that superior development at an early age (from a skillset standpoint) allows them to compete with more athletic players.

International ball now>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>80s-90's international ball. The talent pool is in the millions, it's not the tens of thousands Bird competed with growing up in the 60s-70s.

But 80's NBA>>>>Modern International ball.

If Drazen didn't die (who was a contemporary of Vlade, who played in the modern era, and not much older than Peja), he probably would've played until the early-00's (the modern era as far as I'm concerned), and been a many time all-star. Bird roasted him when they matched up in 1988 at the McDonald's International tournament (to be fair, they played different positions and didn't directly guard each other. Bird did kill Dino Radja in the earlier game against Yugoslavia. Dino would be a 20ppg scorer in the NBA in 1996). What? Drazen's (or Dino's) body didn't fill out yet, right :lol I don't discount that, but you act like once a younger player's "body fills out" he suddenly becomes some kind of mutant compared to the veteran/past era player. Sure, 1988 Larry Bird isn't doing as well against 1996 Dino Radja as he did against 1988 Dino Radja, but a 1996 "filled out Dino Radja" isn't going to suddenly turn Larry Bird into Adam Morrison.

I'll end with this. Let's say a modern team could draft Larry Bird out of Indiana State. He probably doesn't make the immediate impact he did right out of college as he did in 1980, but give him 2 years to develop, put on weight, improve his explosiveness with modern training, and he's a top SF/PF in today's game. Since his skill set was so polished already, he could move right into training up his body and athleticism.

There's nothing magical about today's era that would render Bird an Adam Morrison level player.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I see steady progress and reasonable evolution, you see a comic book.