Is larry bird the most overrated all time great of all time?

[apalisoc_9]

Hes not.in my top 10
.

[The Reckoning]

you just say that because he's pasty

[Red Hawk #21]

Hes not.in my top 10
.

Are you going to give us any reasons why you feel he's overrated?

[Venti Quattro]

Are you going to give us any reasons why you feel he's overrated?

Maybe because apalisoc_9 is a feminist and he wants to revoke Larry Bird's white male privilege

[Raven]

MJ
Timmy
LB

skills and IQ over anything.

[N0 LyF3 ScRuB]

Lol what a joke

[Spurs 4 The Win]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CMFYaqrVEAAtB1m.jpg

Yeah, he is garbage

[apalisoc_9]

Great numbers against a declining lebron.
Bird is for sure great player. Top 15.

[baseline bum]

Bird is one of the greatest talents I have ever seen and would be unreal in this era that emphasizes ball movement and outside shooting.

[BD24]

Bird is one of the greatest talents I have ever seen and would be unreal in this era that emphasizes ball movement and outside shooting.
This

[Buddy Mignon]

Hes not.in my top 10
.

Niggas trying hard to sneak Jim in the top 10. Fuck off...

[apalisoc_9]

Niggas trying hard to sneak Jim in the top 10. Fuck off...

Jordan
TD
kareem
Aids
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem
kobe
Wade/dirk/kg

Tbh

[Killakobe81]

Bird is one of the greatest talents I have ever seen and would be unreal in this era that emphasizes ball movement and outside shooting.

Offensively absolutely. But Kiwi, lebron, PG, Durant can defend him a whole lot better than he can do them. Who would he defend vs Warriors small ball lineup. Bird is absolutely great. But times change. Still 2nd greatest SF ...but Lebron is better.

[baseline bum]

Offensively absolutely. But Kiwi, lebron, PG, Durant can defend him a whole lot better than he can do them. Who would he defend vs Warriors small ball lineup. Bird is absolutely great. But times change. Still 2nd greatest SF ...but Lebron is better.

LeBron couldn't guard Leonard, you think he's going to stop Bird?

[Killakobe81]

LeBron couldn't guard Leonard, you think he's going to stop Bird?

LeBron is overrated on defense because he rarely puts the effort in on that end and carries so much offensive burdens. When he locks in LeBron is very good on D not Kiwi good, but damn good.

[SpursFan86]

Bird would be just as good, maybe even better if he played today. He's one of the few guys from that era whose game would fit well in today's league. He was an amazing shooter who would likely take (and make) much more 3s given the current state of basketball. He had elite court vision/passing abilities and would thrive in a motion offense predicated on ball movement. He was also a great off-ball player, which again would allow him to have success in current style offenses. He would dominate the boards in small-ball situations.

Defensively he'd be nothing special, but it's not like he'd be some liability who gets torched by everyone he goes up against. Don't think he's noticeably worse than a guy like Durant or post-2013 LeBron in that regard.

He's not better than LeBron, but it's a massive stretch to leave him out of the top 10, and he's definitely not the most overrated player ever. That would probably be Allen Iverson. You have tons of people out there claiming he's a top 10-20 player of all-time :lol

[apalisoc_9]

Offensively absolutely. But Kiwi, lebron, PG, Durant can defend him a whole lot better than he can do them. Who would he defend vs Warriors small ball lineup. Bird is absolutely great. But times change. Still 2nd greatest SF ...but Lebron is better.

Nigg wtf? Durant is playing harden level D...George has regreed defensively. Pre injury george was a great defender this geroge is suspect.

Lebron is a million times better than bird.

[TDfan2007]

Jordan
TD
kareem
Aids
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem
kobe
Wade/dirk/kg

Tbh

You must not have watched many of his games. Also, kinda strange that you'd rank Dirk over him, seeing as how Bird was like Dirk with court vision on offense, while being a better defender.

Hard to disagree with your top 7 though...

[Arcadian]

Bird > Kobe no doubt

[Buddy Mignon]

Great numbers against a declining lebron.
Bird is for sure great player. Top 15.

Birds impact on the NBA is much greater than Jims.

[Buddy Mignon]

LeBron is overrated on defense because he rarely puts the effort in on that end and carries so much offensive burdens. When he locks in LeBron is very good on D not Kiwi good, but damn good.

I dont see why you niggas keep mentioning Kiwi as some all world defender. Who has he shined against?

[DAF86]

No. He could shoot, pass, rebound. He was as complete as they come. Imho, he was better than Magic who couldn't shoot for shit.

[Silver&Black]

Bird is one of the greatest talents I have ever seen and would be unreal in this era that emphasizes ball movement and outside shooting.

You know the whole "He's playing chess and you're playing checkers" cliche. That's Larry Joe in a nutshell. He was always 3-4 steps ahead of his competition. Some of the offensive rebounds he would get and then immediately touch pass to McHale under the goal.....a thing of beauty to watch.

You're exactly right put him in a "pass first" or "ball movement" era....skies the limit.

[BatManu20]

Larry Bird is easily top 10.

[Silver&Black]

I dont see why you niggas keep mentioning Kiwi as some all world defender. Who has he shined against?

Da nigga is holding an awful shiny trophy...

http://jocksandstilettojill.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/NBA-KawhiLeonard-DPOY.jpg

[Spurtacular]

Jordan
TD
kareem
Aids
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem
kobe
Wade/dirk/kg

Tbh


:pimpslap

Nigga's trying to say Poor Man's Bird and Ainge 1.3 are better than Legend!

:lmao

[DMC]

His peers rate him that high. That's all I need to know. Don't care what some 5'1" Pinoy thinks.

[Buddy Mignon]

Da nigga is holding an awful shiny trophy...

http://jocksandstilettojill.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/NBA-KawhiLeonard-DPOY.jpg

That trophy holds no credibility. Marc Gasol fat ass won it. Name an elite player Kiwi owns or makes it difficult on? Every elite player lights his ass up. The last great defender in this league was KG... then Artest. Duncan was never elite as well. Dirk, Shaq, Amare, and Randolf all shitted on Jim.

[DMC]

I dont see why you niggas keep mentioning Kiwi as some all world defender. Who has he shined against?
That's stupid even for you. The NBA has the best players in the "all world" category and Kawhi was the best defender in the NBA last year.

[Silver&Black]

That trophy holds no credibility. Marc Gasol fat ass won it. Name an elite player Kiwi owns or makes it difficult on? Every elite player lights his ass up. The last great defender in this league was KG... then Artest. Duncan was never elite as well. Dirk, Shaq, Amare, and Randolf all shitted on Jim.


His peers rate him that high. That's all I need to know. Don't care what some 5'1" Pinoy thinks.

[Silver&Black]

LeBron sure didn't want to see Kawhi check back into the game. Is Lebron an "elite player" to you Luva?

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/lebronkawhi.gif

[spurraider21]

On this forum he's easily the most underrated player in NBA history

[KL2]

80's basketball :lmao

Anyone that thinks Bird would be an all time great today is an idiot tbh, he'd get man handled, Matt Bonner probably would've gone down as a legend in the 80's tbh.

[SanAntonioSpurs23]

Bird>LeBron>>>>>Kobe

[Buddy Mignon]

LeBron sure didn't want to see Kawhi check back into the game. Is Lebron an "elite player" to you Luva?

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/lebronkawhi.gif

You care to post Lebron's stats?

[spurraider21]

And why are we pretending bird was a poor defender?

[Silver&Black]

You care to post Lebron's stats?

Name me a better perimeter defender in the NBA right now.

I'll leave it with this (because this thread isn't about Kawhi).....you fuckers better not lose to the fucking 6ers on Tuesday night. The wrath that will be coming Lakers Nation way will be epic. You're playing for your entire season in Philly.

Don't let it happen Naruto....you are officially warned.

[KL2]

People should really educate themselves about the history of cable TV and how it affected the talent pool you see in the NBA.
http://www.calcable.org/learn/history-of-cable/

[Kawhitstorm]

Name an elite player Kiwi owns or makes it difficult on? Every elite player lights his ass up

533492921920942080

[dbreiden83080]

Uh no. He is easily top 10 all time..

[jeebus]

If Bird isn't top ten, then shitty '10s players like LeChoke and other supposed "good" players nowadays don't even crack the top 100.

[gambit1990]

easily top ten.

[apalisoc_9]

80's basketball :lmao

Anyone that thinks Bird would be an all time great today is an idiot tbh, he'd get man handled, Matt Bonner probably would've gone down as a legend in the 80's tbh.

Truth

[Spurs 4 The Win]

80's basketball :lmao

Anyone that thinks Bird would be an all time great today is an idiot tbh, he'd get man handled, Matt Bonner probably would've gone down as a legend in the 80's tbh.

Thank you for nominating yourself to go on my ignore list, now I dont have to read a bunch of your posts to figure out you are dumbass with no basketball knowledge

[apalisoc_9]

Most players in the 80 couldnt dribble with their heads up. In the 80's a one hand dunk is a highlight. Lol

[BD24]

Jordan
TD
kareem
Aids
Lebron
Shaq
Hakeem
kobe
Wade/dirk/kg

Tbh
This fucking retard is really trying to say Wade, Dirk, or KG over Bird :lmao

[apalisoc_9]

I just realized the 80s was so full of tweeners or fat guys. :lmao

Anyone ignoring the significant difference between athelteses today and before.

Jordan was a monster because he played late 80's and 90's with a skill set of a star player in 15..

Lebron would have won 12 straight if he played in the 80s.

[140]

533492921920942080
He said elite though, tbh

[apalisoc_9]

People should really educate themselves about the history of cable TV and how it affected the talent pool you see in the NBA.
http://www.calcable.org/learn/history-of-cable/



Pretty much.

Nostalgia faggots being nostalgia faggots

[BD24]

Come on then Apa, lets hear your reasoning for Wade, KG, or Dirk being above Bird. Chop Chop. Faggot.

[Spurtacular]

80's basketball :lmao

Anyone that thinks Bird would be an all time great today is an idiot tbh, he'd get man handled, Matt Bonner probably would've gone down as a legend in the 80's tbh.

This isn't even decent hyperbole from apa's sock.

[BD24]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKoXZ1f00Mc
But but Bird wouldn't fair well against todays athletes :(

[Spurtacular]

I just realized the 80s was so full of tweeners or fat guys. :lmao

Anyone ignoring the significant difference between athelteses today and before.

Jordan was a monster because he played late 80's and 90's with a skill set of a star player in 15..

Lebron would have won 12 straight if he played in the 80s.

If you're talking about putting him on a team of scrubs, he would've had his ass handed to him by the Celtics and Lakers just like Jordan did.

[Silver&Black]

Come on then Apa, lets hear your reasoning for Wade, KG, or Dirk being above Bird. Chop Chop. Faggot.

D-Wade's, KG's, and Dirk's own mothers don't have them above Larry Legend.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Pretty much.

Nostalgia faggots being nostalgia faggots

When you are trying to discredit a widely held belief by everyone but you, the burden of proof is on you to prove why he should be ranked lower, not us to validate his high ranking, so show us something definitive, or gtfo

[Brazil]

dat thread kg, Dirk, wade, Kobe above bird :lol

[BD24]

dat thread kg, Dirk, wade, Kobe above bird :lol
Hey Brazil, you should probably post that picture you found of Apa again and watch him go snitch to the mods :lol

[KL2]

Do people really not know how much participation in basketball has grown since Bird and Jordan's generation? Not just in America but worldwide.

Bird-Jordan were 50's-60's babies, they grew up in a time where baseball was still the #1 sport in America, which is why Jordan originally gravitated towards it before playing basketball. Basketball was relatively unpopular, especially compared to how it is now. Guys were getting paid peanuts, Finals games were even being delayed on TV lmao.

There were 52 million TV sets in America by 1960 with just 850,000 cable subscribers, by 1980 it was probably double that, by 1997 there were 219 million sets in America, TV's became more affordable throughout the years as did cable tv, which most people could not afford.

Really people, educate yourself on how the affordability of TVs and the spread of cable, it put basketball on a world stage, the NBA did a great job of marketing the game which was almost non existent in Bird/Jordan's generation.

http://www.calcable.org/learn/history-of-cable/
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2007/TamaraTamazashvili.shtml

"In the early 1970s, the FCC continued its restrictive policies by enacting regulations that limited the ability of cable operators to offer movies, sporting events, and syndicated programming."

"The 1984 Cable Act established a more favorable regulatory framework for the industry, stimulating investment in cable plant and programming on an unprecedented level.

Deregulation provided by the 1984 Act had a strong positive effect on the rapid growth of cable services. From 1984 through 1992, the industry spent more than $15 billion on the wiring of America, and billions more on program development. This was the largest private construction project since World War II."

It put basketball on a world stage, and with that you had generations of kids exposed to it, literally millions. The talent pool is fucking massive compared to when Jordan-Bird played. Look at how many American kids have emulated Jordan, it was all due to cable TV. You can even use Vlade Divac as an example, look at all the European players that were inspired by him.

That's not even factoring in the millions of youth programs that have sprouted since then, you now have kids being groomed from young ages.

[BD24]

Do people really not know how much participation in basketball has grown since Bird and Jordan's generation? Not just in America but worldwide.

Bird-Jordan were 50's-60's babies, they grew up in a time where baseball was still the #1 sport in America, which is why Jordan originally gravitated towards it before playing basketball. Basketball was relatively unpopular, especially compared to how it is now. Guys were getting paid peanuts, Finals games were even being delayed on TV lmao.

There were 52 million TV sets in America by 1960 with just 850,000 cable subscribers, by 1980 it was probably double that, by 1997 there were 219 million sets in America, TV's became more affordable throughout the years as did cable tv, which most people could not afford.

Really people, educate yourself on how the affordability of TVs and the spread of cable, it put basketball on a world stage, the NBA did a great job of marketing the game which was almost non existent in Bird/Jordan's generation.

http://www.calcable.org/learn/history-of-cable/
http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2007/TamaraTamazashvili.shtml

"In the early 1970s, the FCC continued its restrictive policies by enacting regulations that limited the ability of cable operators to offer movies, sporting events, and syndicated programming."

"The 1984 Cable Act established a more favorable regulatory framework for the industry, stimulating investment in cable plant and programming on an unprecedented level.

Deregulation provided by the 1984 Act had a strong positive effect on the rapid growth of cable services. From 1984 through 1992, the industry spent more than $15 billion on the wiring of America, and billions more on program development. This was the largest private construction project since World War II."

It put basketball on a world stage, and with that you had generations of kids exposed to it, literally millions. The talent pool is fucking massive compared to when Jordan-Bird played. Look at how many American kids have emulated Jordan, it was all due to cable TV. You can even use Vlade Divac as an example, look at all the European players that were inspired by him.

That's not even factoring in the millions of youth programs that have sprouted since then, you now have kids being groomed from young ages.




Ok, thats nice and all. But, I would still like to know the reasoning behind Wade, Dirk, Kobe, or Garnett above Bird. Go ahead.

[Kawhitstorm]

He said elite though, tbh

I thought Vino was top 25 last season according to Kobestans:lol

522800850918715392

522796943563444224

522977602537918464

[JoeTait75]

Bird-Jordan were 50's-60's babies, they grew up in a time where baseball was still the #1 sport in America, which is why Jordan originally gravitated towards it before playing basketball. Basketball was relatively unpopular, especially compared to how it is now. Guys were getting paid peanuts, Finals games were even being delayed on TV lmao.

Bird and Jordan came up in areas where they practically put a basketball in your crib the day you were born. You think there was a shortage of players in the state of Indiana when Bird was coming up?

[spurraider21]

Bird and Jordan came up in areas where they practically put a basketball in your crib the day you were born. You think there was a shortage of players in the state of Indiana when Bird was coming up?
you cant reason with shtick

[HarlemHeat37]

Bird was great in his time..tough to watch videos of him now, though, they don't age well, tbh..

You would have to be lying to yourself if you deny that being White elevated his legacy tremendously, though..:lmao nothing makes White people angrier than talking shit about ugly-ass Larry Bird..

[spurraider21]

Bird was great in his time..tough to watch videos of him now, though, they don't age well, tbh..

You would have to be lying to yourself if you deny that being White elevated his legacy tremendously, though..:lmao nothing makes White people angrier than talking shit about ugly-ass Larry Bird..
nothing elevates your legacy like putting up huge numbers and winning, sparking a historic turnaround in your rookie season, etc

[HarlemHeat37]

nothing elevates your legacy like putting up huge numbers and winning, sparking a historic turnaround in your rookie season, etc

And being White:lol

[JoeTait75]

You would have to be lying to yourself if you deny that being White elevated his legacy tremendously, though..:lmao nothing makes White people angrier than talking shit about ugly-ass Larry Bird..

Nothing wrong with that. White folks need heroes too, and it is satisfying to see a white man excel in what's known as a black man's game. White folks love Larry Bird and the movie Hoosiers for the same reasons. :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

Nothing wrong with that. White folks need heroes too, and it is satisfying to see a white man excel in what's known as a black man's game. White folks love Larry Bird and the movie Hoosiers for the same reasons. :lol

Nothing wrong with that, at all..spurraider always tries to deny obvious racial factors whenever it's brought up in any argument:lol

[spurraider21]

Nothing wrong with that, at all..spurraider always tries to deny obvious racial factors whenever it's brought up in any argument:lol
how many black NBA players have Larry's numbers/credentials/accomplishments but arent revered like he is?

[Mugen]

Still blacker than Kirby tbh

[apalisoc_9]

Nothing wrong with that, at all..spurraider always tries to deny obvious racial factors whenever it's brought up in any argument:lol
Can you imagie jimmer freddette with a kawhi role? Hed be close consensus asnthe best player in the world.

[HarlemHeat37]

how many black NBA players have Larry's numbers/credentials/accomplishments but arent revered like he is?

The only "revered" Black players are Jordan(who is a White man with Black skin) and Magic, tbh..

It's just life, bro..nothing wrong with that, stop being so naive:lol

Look at Serena Williams, for example..imagine she was White:wow

[spurraider21]

The only "revered" Black players are Jordan(who is a White man with Black skin) and Magic, tbh..
look up any top 10 nba players list and count the white players :lol... most lists will just have bird. some lakerfan lists might have west.

even ancient players like russell, wilt are still highly regarded despite playing in a terrible era

[HarlemHeat37]

Can you imagie jimmer freddette with a kawhi role? Hed be close consensus asnthe best player in the world.

:lol Jimmer isn't even an NBA-caliber player, yet still has legions of fans, and teams are still giving him a shot..

[HemisfairArena]

I've always argued that Duncan is above Bird on All Time great lists but for some reason people still put Bird in their top 5,,,,Bird is top 10 though. As far as most overrated all time great of all time goes,,,that title belongs to Kobrick hands down and the legacy in flames tour is in full effect,,

[HarlemHeat37]

look up any top 10 nba players list and count the white players :lol... most lists will just have bird. some lakerfan lists might have west.

even ancient players like russell, wilt are still highly regarded despite playing in a terrible era

So, you actually believe that being White didn't significantly help Larry Bird's legacy?

[spurraider21]

So, you actually believe that being White didn't significantly help Larry Bird's legacy?
i think it's quite hard to prove it (and if you want to make the claim, the onus is on you). he and magic were neck and neck in college and in the nba as far as numbers/accomplishments, and they are also neck and neck as far as legacies go

[Brazil]

Hey Brazil, you should probably post that picture you found of Apa again and watch him go snitch to the mods :lol

:lol

[Cry Havoc]

Larry Bird

3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1982–1984)

Yeah, what a trash defender. :lol

[spurraider21]

Larry Bird

3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1982–1984)

Yeah, what a trash defender. :lol
he's white. automatically trash defender

[ambchang]

Really, this bashing old timers schtick really ran its course a while back.

I know you guys are bored and your hand can only give yourself so much attention, but try to get another angle, ok?

[KL2]

Bird and Jordan came up in areas where they practically put a basketball in your crib the day you were born. You think there was a shortage of players in the state of Indiana when Bird was coming up?

Basketball was only popular in certain parts of the country at that time, basketball was still ranked behind sports like baseball, boxing, hockey, tennis, etc. it was relatively unpopular until cable and tv's became wide spread in the 80's, that's when Stern started to market his stars like Magic and the NBA's popularity boomed because it was now on a world stage.

I'm not just talking about America either, I'm talking about the whole world. The talent pool is huge, population is not static and it has increased by hundreds of millions since the 1960's. Right now there are over 5.5 million kids ages from 6-12 playing youth basketball, the majority of which are males. Most of these youth developmental programs didn't exist back in the day, they're honing their skills from a very young age.

Out of that 5.5 million (Let's say 3 million are boys, that's a fair number) American kids it gets whittled down to just 500,000+ participants in men's high school basketball. That 500,000 then gets filtered down to just 4,500 Div. 1 college basketball players. This process keeps repeating itself over and over.

Then you also have the whole European system which is separate, basketball is now one of Europe's most popular sports and has too seen a huge increase in basketball programs. Worldwide you've got players coming from all over the place Brazil, Australia, Asia, Argentina, France, Canada, etc. the Spurs have a damn Aboriginal on their team lmao.

[JMarkJohns]

It's weird when Spurs fans are the one taking swipes at Bird under the banner of average at best athletes can't compete in modernity when they won 5 titles with an average at-best athlete in Duncan schooling overrated elite athletes with half the skill, smarts, and heart.

Yet, somehow, something as irrelevant as skin color eliminates one of the best shooting, best passing, best rebounding combo-forwards to ever play?

In an era with no handchecking and illegal defenses, it's not unreasonable to think Bird is the same player, if not better.

I mean, Peja fucking averaged like 24 a game just 10 years ago. And compared to Bird, Peja has a goddamn mental infant. No fortitude, no heart.

[lefty]

No. He could shoot, pass, rebound. He was as complete as they come. Imho, he was better than Magic who couldn't shoot for shit.

Truth

[JMarkJohns]

Basketball was only popular in certain parts of the country at that time...

Like North Carolina and Indiana?

[spurraider21]

It's weird when Spurs fans are the one taking swipes at Bird under the banner of average at best athletes can't compete in modernity when they won 5 titles with an average at-best athlete in Duncan schooling overrated elite athletes with half the skill, smarts, and heart.

Yet, somehow, something as irrelevant as skin color eliminates one of the best shooting, best passing, best rebounding combo-forwards to ever play?

In an era with no handchecking and illegal defenses, it's not unreasonable to think Bird is the same player, if not better.

I mean, Peja fucking averaged like 24 a game just 10 years ago. And compared to Bird, Peja has a goddamn mental infant. No fortitude, no heart.
inb4 "Peja would have been the GOAT if he played in the 80's"

[HemisfairArena]

Bird was the Curry of his time,,,tbh. He could shoot from anywhere on the floor and drain it,,,,

[KL2]

Like North Carolina and Indiana?

The hell if I know, I don't know exactly where it was popular, I just know the popularity pales in comparison in today's game.

[JMarkJohns]

inb4 "Peja would have been the GOAT if he played in the 80's"

Ahhh, sheeeeit! Did I inadvertently create a new topic? Fuck....

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol if White Americans had to choose between eliminating Isis or eradicating all Larry Bird haters, what would they select, tbh?

[JMarkJohns]

The hell if I know, I don't know exactly where it was popular, I just know the popularity pales in comparison in today's game.

If you don't know the history of basketball in the states where Jordan and Bird were born, raised, educated, and heroed, then maybe you should shut the fuck up on the subject?

Talking out yer ass mostly leads to shit takes.

Of all the places, in all the states in the country, those two states are the most basketball-worshipping of them all. Your argument literally couldn't have two worse geographical examples.

[HemisfairArena]

:lol if White Americans had to choose between eliminating Isis or eradicating all Larry Bird haters, what would they select, tbh?

That's a tough one,,,,it would be like blacks choosing between welfare or legalizing black on black crime,,,,tbh

[KL2]

It's weird when Spurs fans are the one taking swipes at Bird under the banner of average at best athletes can't compete in modernity when they won 5 titles with an average at-best athlete in Duncan schooling overrated elite athletes with half the skill, smarts, and heart.

Yet, somehow, something as irrelevant as skin color eliminates one of the best shooting, best passing, best rebounding combo-forwards to ever play?

In an era with no handchecking and illegal defenses, it's not unreasonable to think Bird is the same player, if not better.

I mean, Peja fucking averaged like 24 a game just 10 years ago. And compared to Bird, Peja has a goddamn mental infant. No fortitude, no heart.

Duncan was an elite athlete in his younger years, he moved very fluidly around the court for a big man. His career has also been extended thanks to strength and conditioning coaches which weren't even employed by the NBA until the 90's after they saw the result it had on Jordan's body, then it became widespread.

The players you think that don't look athletic, are. They don't look like it in a sea of athletes.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Sh6ohvZYUE

[JMarkJohns]

Duncan has simply never been an elite athlete. Not for a Big. Not for any body.

He's a solid athlete with superior everything else.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

[spurraider21]

:lol if White Americans had to choose between eliminating Isis or eradicating all Larry Bird haters, what would they select, tbh?
Isis tbh. The bird hating is a shtick, I get it.

Assuming I qualify as white American, which would be a reach

[KL2]

If you don't know the history of basketball in the states where Jordan and Bird were born, raised, educated, and heroed, then maybe you should shut the fuck up on the subject?

Talking out yer ass mostly leads to shit takes.

Of all the places, in all the states in the country, those two states are the most basketball-worshipping of them all. Your argument literally couldn't have two worse geographical examples.

All those sports still shitted on basketball lmao, baseball had a ton of stars, the NBA didn't start marketing around it's stars until the 1980's when cable became widespread. Either way it doesn't really matter how popular basketball was in those states at that time, basketball is a worldwide sport.

Players like Ginobili grew up idolizing Jordan.

[KL2]

Duncan has simply never been an elite athlete. Not for a Big. Not for any body.

He's a solid athlete with superior everything else.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Not elite, but above average, yes early in his career. He's not explosive, but he moved very well for a man his size.

Matt Bonner is arguably one of the least athletic players in the NBA, yet when you look at his profile, you'll realize he's 6'10 240llbs of muscle that can shoot like a guard:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMp96RXgow4

At 240lbs in the 80's he would've been bigger than most PF's in the league, Bonner would've had elite size and could've gotten his shot whenever he wanted.

[JMarkJohns]

KL2, what the fuck is your malfunction?

[KL2]

Btw, when you can't hand check, you'll get burned. You need lateral movement in order to keep up with today's ball handlers, Jordan had never seen anything like Iverson before, now you've got even big men that can handle the ball on the perimeter. The act of crossing over requires you to start and stop, shift your weight and remain balanced, you need to be explosive to execute them especially when you're over 240lbs. Leonard's game is a lot like old school bball, but he's over 240lbs and shoots lights out, again, that's bigger than a lot of bigs from the 80s.

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/ai-mj.gif?w=1000

[JMarkJohns]

Keep flinging that shit, KL2. I'm sure in time some of it will stick.

[spurraider21]

michael jordan never faced crossovers until allen iverson. now i've heard it all.

KL2 do you know who mark price is?

[JMarkJohns]

Did Avante die and reincarnate as KL2?

[KL2]

michael jordan never faced crossovers until allen iverson

now i've heard it all

Not the type of crossovers/ball handler combos you see today where players utilize their explosive footwork with it.

You really think men that weighed 240+ could handle the ball like they do now? :lmao if you were 240+ chances are you were a stiff out there.

Griffin is 260+ and moves like a guard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXiktpVnIXU

[KL2]

6'8 213lb PF, who's dad is this?

https://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/rambis.jpg

[apalisoc_9]

Not the type of crossovers/ball handler combos you see today where players utilize their explosive footwork with it.

You really think men that weighed 240+ could handle the ball like they do now? :lmao if you were 240+ chances are you were a stiff out there.

Griffin is 260+ and moves like a guard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXiktpVnIXU

[JMarkJohns]

KL2 has gone full Avante.

[BD24]

KL2 has gone full Avante.
Probably not worth your time arguing with these retards. They are just trying to start shit, major attention whores. It's the old say something controversial to get responses

[baseline bum]

Bird was great in his time..tough to watch videos of him now, though, they don't age well, tbh..

You would have to be lying to yourself if you deny that being White elevated his legacy tremendously, though..:lmao nothing makes White people angrier than talking shit about ugly-ass Larry Bird..

You gotta be fucking kidding me. Bird took a team full of Indiana State honkies to an undefeated season until running up against HIV- Magic in the national championship game. Bird is one of the top passing forwards in league history and had crazy range. Bird's still amazing to watch.

[baseline bum]

Btw, when you can't hand check, you'll get burned. You need lateral movement in order to keep up with today's ball handlers, Jordan had never seen anything like Iverson before, now you've got even big men that can handle the ball on the perimeter. The act of crossing over requires you to start and stop, shift your weight and remain balanced, you need to be explosive to execute them especially when you're over 240lbs. Leonard's game is a lot like old school bball, but he's over 240lbs and shoots lights out, again, that's bigger than a lot of bigs from the 80s.

https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/ai-mj.gif?w=1000

https://31.media.tumblr.com/ebff3d27e0f6cab19332db3299dbe9a3/tumblr_mt76z3coU21sdydefo1_400.gif

[apalisoc_9]

KL2 is presenting argument and all this johnmaks doing is going into ad hominem attacks.

You know when a poster starts withy shitty ad hominem attacks they are pretty much sore losers.

[JMarkJohns]

I've always maintained Avante was a oldtimers sock puppet. Pretty sure KL2 is as well. Same bullheaded style, same shit takes. Shit-flinging-turned-shit-smearing history-style lesson with every post.

[apalisoc_9]

The 80's was so full of white american players....that alone should be enough to indicate how poor the pool talent was.

Kyle anderson would have been an all time great if he played in the 80s

[BD24]

KL2 is presenting argument and all this johnmaks doing is going into ad hominem attacks.

You know when a poster starts withy shitty ad hominem attacks they are pretty much sore losers.
Bullshit auntfucker. Neither you or KL2 have given any reasoning why Kobe, Garnett, dirk, or wade should be above bird. Neither of you will give reasoning because you know that shit isn't true and you can't build a solid case for it.

[apalisoc_9]

I've always maintained Avante was a oldtimers sock puppet. Pretty sure KL2 is as well. Same bullheaded style, same shit takes. Shit-flinging-turned-shit-smearing history-style lesson with every post.
Present your argument dudd..you are terrible at rebuttaling kl2..mainly because there is no rebutall at the facr that todays players>80s players

[JMarkJohns]

KL2 is presenting argument and all this johnmaks doing is going into ad hominem attacks.

You know when a poster starts withy shitty ad hominem attacks they are pretty much sore losers.

Look at you with the Latin.

Too bad KL2 is quintessential non-sequitur.

[apalisoc_9]

Bird will be adam morrison 2.0 of he played in this era.

[apalisoc_9]

Look at you with the Latin.

Too bad KL2 is quintessential non-sequitur.

Oh..i cant rebutall time to go personal :cry..

Bird would have a similar career to jimmer freddete if he played in today Black NBA...

[spurraider21]

Great numbers against a declining lebron.
Bird is for sure great player. Top 15.


Bird will be adam morrison 2.0 of he played in this era.


Oh..i cant rebutall time to go personal :cry..

Bird would have a similar career to jimmer freddete if he played in today Black NBA...
:lmao

if you're going to pull a shtick, at least do it right

[JMarkJohns]

I stopped bothering to rebut KL2 about 20 posts back. There's nothing to rebut.

A bunch of nonsense and nah-ahhhs on whether Bonner is a guard in a big man's body playing 25 years too late and whether or not one can extrapolate one clip of Jordan getting crossed over into a religion worshipping the modern (from 90s) crossover of Iverson.

[KL2]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/ebff3d27e0f6cab19332db3299dbe9a3/tumblr_mt76z3coU21sdydefo1_400.gif


Post the best ball handlers from the 80's and tell me their height/weight. 240lb men handling the ball and moving as fluidly as they do was unheard of in the 80's, they didn't exist because you needed to be an explosive athlete at that size in order to execute it with footwork.

I just showed you a 6'8 213lb PF, Kurt Rambis lol, sad thing is he was a stiff at that weight, not even an athlete lmao. FFS, Aldridge is considered soft as a PF and he's 6'11 270+ and is far more agile, you think you could play a PF like Rambis in today's league?

[BD24]

so you want to pull the whole he played in the 80's card right? Yet you have magic,Kareem, and Jordan on the list. All players in the same era as bird that bird was pretty successful against :downspin:

[apalisoc_9]

Of cousrse bird is top 15...he was an influential personality. If were going to rank players based on skill alone Lebron will be the best of all time...it would be

Lebron
And maybe 300 other 00 and modern basketball players.

Curry would top 5.

MJ would be in the 50s..Bird and poor man MCW magic johnson would be in the 3000

[spurraider21]

:lmao adam morrison/jimmer fredette caliber player in your top 15 all time

[JMarkJohns]

This thread has gone full retard.

[apalisoc_9]

:lmao adam morrison/jimmer fredette caliber player in your top 15 all time

Mot everything is about skill..bird wis for sure adam morrison if he played today. But his infulence and achievenet in his own era makes him top 15

[BD24]

This thread has gone full retard.
This thread was full retard from the start mate

[baseline bum]

Would you take Bird or Mike Miller?

[JMarkJohns]

This thread was full retard from the start mate

It was laughable. Now it's just tragic.

[Silver&Black]

I just think you're really stepping out of bounds with the "overrated" part.

If somebody had a player (doesn't matter who) ranked in their top 10.....but the majority of people think of him as a top 30-40 player. Then that deserves the overrated discussion.

But, when you say he's not in my top 10, but he's in my top 15....that's not really being overrated. That's just a slight difference....and certainly not worthy of the overrated label.

[KL2]

so you want to pull the whole he played in the 80's card right? Yet you have magic,Kareem, and Jordan on the list. All players in the same era as bird that bird was pretty successful against :downspin:

Jordan was at his peak in the 90's, it took years for him to mature physically. That's the problem when comparing new to old generation, people like to post clips of heavily experienced vets having success against inexperienced players.

If a rookie Iverson was ripping Jordan's bulls a new asshole, imagine what a prime Iverson would've done. Just take Leonard's development for example, he's finally on a level playing field with guys like Bron, Durant, Melo after years of physical development and his game maturing, even players like Gay used to give him a ton of trouble.

[apalisoc_9]

Mike in his younger days was an athletic player tbh. Bird is probably a fringe D league player in todays game..still like I said he is top 15 for influence reasons and he did help revive basketball alongside MCW lite magic johnson

[JMarkJohns]

Would you take Bird or Mike Miller?

Mike Miller high-fives LeBron, so, Miller. Duh!

[Silver&Black]

:lol Larry Legend is a fringe D-League player

I'm done........

[baseline bum]

Bird or Bryce Drew?

[BD24]

I'm going to laugh 20 years down the line when there is some kid telling apa that kawhi would be a d league player in today's game. Apa would be getting purple in the face arguing with the kid. Would be a fun site to see.

[JMarkJohns]

:lol Larry Legend is a fringe D-League player

I'm done........

Did you see where Jordan is fringe top-50 all time and Magic is like 3000th?

[apalisoc_9]

People cant seem to realize the massive difference in skill level between today players and in the 80s...Kareem is pretty much pee wee level baksetball compred to todays athletes

[JMarkJohns]

Bird or Bryce Drew?

Wrong question.

Bird or Bryce Alford?!

[baseline bum]

People cant seem to realize the massive difference in skill level between today players and in the 80s...Kareem is pretty much pee wee level baksetball compred to todays athletes

Would you throw it to DeAndre or Kareem on the block?

[JMarkJohns]

My hate has officially shifted to love.

There. I've said it out loud.

I love this thread.

[apalisoc_9]

In 2070 kawhi would probably be a 15th man DNP kinda player tbh. Curry is revoultinizing the offense right now. Pretty soon a curry like player would be the norm

[BD24]

Would you throw it to DeAndre or Kareem on the block?
Your coming at this all wrong, the real question is Kareem or Kwame Brown

[JMarkJohns]

Would you throw it to DeAndre or Kareem on the block?

Fingers crossed he picks DeAndre!!!

[apalisoc_9]

7 footers 40 years from now would be like Draymond but taller and more athletic..ridiculous tbh. Draymond is another guy that is revolutionizing the game.

[KL2]

Still haven't heard any counter arguments. Nostalgia is a funny thing.

[JMarkJohns]

In 2070 kawhi would probably be a 15th man DNP kinda player tbh. Curry is revoultinizing the offense right now. Pretty soon a curry like player would be the norm

Beautiful. Quoted for posterity.

[apalisoc_9]

Not sure why its so hard for old people and nostalgia fans.to accept that todays players are just more skilled and more athletic. It happens bro. The game evolves.

[apalisoc_9]

Still haven't heard any counter arguments. Nostalgia is a funny thing.
Pretty much...its so sad how people deny the obvious difference in skill level between todays players and the past..Can you imagine Gerald Green doing his dunks in the 80's :lol

[KL2]

7 footers 40 years from now would be like Draymond but taller and more athletic..ridiculous tbh. Draymond is another guy that is revolutionizing the game.

Pretty much, you're going to get some ridiculous athletes from all over the world such as a guy like Porzingis. 7'3 20 year old that shoots like a guard and can play defense.

[JMarkJohns]

Still haven't heard any counter arguments. Nostalgia is a funny thing.

So many people say go Granite. But nothing is as versatile as Quartz or as nuanced as Soapstone.

[KL2]

Pretty much...its so sad how people deny the obvious difference in skill level between todays players and the past..Can you imagine Gerald Green doing his dunks in the 80's :lol

His popularity probably would've been on par with Jordan, probably would've seen him on a wheaties box or some shit, they would've been in awe of his athleticism.

[apalisoc_9]

So many people say go Granite. But nothing is as versatile as Quartz or as nuanced as Soapstone.

This guy keeps on denying the obvious difference in skill level in todays game and in the past...I guess since the 80s had a lot lf white peeps you gotta defend that er eh?

Too bad only 5% of them exist today. Better start watching another sport imo.

[apalisoc_9]

Yeah...Gerad Green would be God in the 80s

[pgardn]

Mike in his younger days was an athletic player tbh. Bird is probably a fringe D league player in todays game..still like I said he is top 15 for influence reasons and he did help revive basketball alongside MCW lite magic johnson

You were decapitated when?

[HarlemHeat37]

KL2, serious talk, why do you think the NBA went from 25+% White Americans in the 80s, to about 7% today, tbh?

It's not like baseball, where niggas just lost interest in the sport:lol..White Americans still play at a star level in the NCAA, and there are still some decent guys in the league(Love, Redick, etc)..why was there such a substantial dip in the numbers?

[JMarkJohns]

How long can KL2 and Apalisoc_9 finger each other's thought dumper on this topic? Their one-upsmanship has been as epic as a Matt Bonner highlight reel.

[pgardn]

Pretty much...its so sad how people deny the obvious difference in skill level between todays players and the past..Can you imagine Gerald Green doing his dunks in the 80's :lol

Dominique Wilkins

Oh you have seen the tapes so he is also D-league.

Little Asian dipshit has not a clue...

[spurraider21]

In 2070 kawhi would probably be a 15th man DNP kinda player tbh. Curry is revoultinizing the offense right now. Pretty soon a curry like player would be the norm
sorta like how magic revolutionized offense and now everybody has a 6'9 point guard

[Cry Havoc]

Mike in his younger days was an athletic player tbh. Bird is probably a fringe D league player in todays game..still like I said he is top 15 for influence reasons and he did help revive basketball alongside MCW lite magic johnson

You are literally the stupidest person on spurstalk.

[HarlemHeat37]

Dominique Wilkins

Oh you have seen the tapes so he is also D-league.

Little Asian dipshit has not a clue...

I'm a big fan of 80s and 90s players, but Dominique's dunks don't hold up well today, tbh:lol..

[spurraider21]

I'm a big fan of 80s and 90s players
:lol


but Dominique's dunks don't hold up well today, tbh:lol..
:lol

[Cry Havoc]

I'm a big fan of 80s and 90s players, but Dominique's dunks don't hold up well today, tbh:lol..

So you agree with apa, that bird (and presumably 'nique) would be 15th men on their team?

[pgardn]

I'm a big fan of 80s and 90s players, but Dominique's dunks don't hold up well today, tbh:lol..

Tbh they do.

And just for you.:lol

[HarlemHeat37]

I remember being 11-12 years old and hearing about Dominique Wilkins and his dunks..no YouTube back then, I bought burned DVDs of the dunk contests with Wilkins, Spud Webb and Jordan..one of the 10 most disappointing things I've ever watched, tbh:lol

I was living in Toronto at the time, too, exacerbating the disappointment, as I used to watch Vince Carter do something superior to their best contest dunks virtually every single game:lol

[KL2]

KL2, serious talk, why do you think the NBA went from 25+% White Americans in the 80s, to about 7% today, tbh?

It's not like baseball, where niggas just lost interest in the sport:lol..White Americans still play at a star level in the NCAA, and there are still some decent guys in the league(Love, Redick, etc)..why was there such a substantial dip in the numbers?

I think it's their lack of athleticism, a lot of these white american guys play fundamental basketball and it works at the collegiate level, but ultimately fails in the pros where it gets overruled by elite athleticism.

[Silver&Black]

You are literally the stupidest person on spurstalk.

Honestly Cry...I don't think he really believes that. He's just trying to :stirpot:.

[Cry Havoc]

Honestly Cry...I don't think he really believes that. He's just trying to :stirpot:.

Then he's stupid for wasting his life on pathetic attempts to troll. It's not even entertaining.

[pgardn]

I remember being 11-12 years old and hearing about Dominique Wilkins and his dunks..no YouTube back then, I bought burned DVDs of the dunk contests with Wilkins, Spud Webb and Jordan..one of the 10 most disappointing things I've ever watched, tbh:lol

I was living in Toronto at the time, too, exacerbating the disappointment, as I used to watch Vince Carter do something superior to their best contest dunks virtually every single game:lol

You don't remember anything quite honestly.:lol

Dunk contest...
Watch the Fckn games.

[apalisoc_9]

Domnique dunks would net a 35 in todays dunk contest tbh..nothing wrong with that..they were great players who helped revolutionize the game but obviously they probably would be HS level.player only in todayd high skilled game.

[DAF86]

I'm full on board with the today's sportmen > earlier sportmen thing but Larry Bird isn't the best example to shit on ex-sportmen, tbh. He was a 6'9'' guy that could handle the rock, shoot, pass, rebound and defend. He would fit today's NBA pretty damn well. He's without a doubt an all-time talent. With Magic Johnson you might have had a better troll thread, imho.

[Silver&Black]

So Vince Carter was a better dunker than Nique.

Does that make him the better player? What's the end game here?

[apalisoc_9]

Another good player comparison is Bill Walton. He reminds of Ryan Kelly of the los angeles lakers

[pgardn]

Domnique dunks would net a 35 in todays dunk contest tbh..nothing wrong with that..they were great players who helped revolutionize the game but obviously they probably would be HS level.player only in todayd high skilled game.

Oh a 35...

Is Oprah judging with or without Miley Cirus?

[spurraider21]

So Vince Carter was a better dunker than Nique.

Does that make him the better player? What's the end game here?
jonathon simmons would shit on nique

[JMarkJohns]

So Vince Carter was a better dunker than Nique.

Does that make him the better player? What's the end game here?

I'd abandon all hope, ye who enter here for logic.

[HarlemHeat37]

So you agree with apa, that bird (and presumably 'nique) would be 15th men on their team?

I don't think it's fair to judge players from the past vs. present players, outside of what they did against their own competition during their playing days..things change to match to make comparisons of that nature, the playing field isn't even..I used to do it, but find it silly now..

Bill Russell shot under 44% like 6 times IIRC, for example:lol

I can't really watch videos of most players from the past, though, it doesn't hold up well, at all IMO..it's like comedy, most of it ages poorly and is heavily based on the climate of it's time..

[apalisoc_9]

Ryan Kelly would probably be an all nba player in the 80s imo...dude is pretty darn athletic relative to 80s players.

[HarlemHeat37]

So Vince Carter was a better dunker than Nique.

Does that make him the better player? What's the end game here?

That his dunking is still revered and idolized by older players and fans, but doesn't hold up well today, aesthetically, like virtually everything from that era:lol..

[KL2]

Another good player comparison is Bill Walton. He reminds of Ryan Kelly of the los angeles lakers

Agreed, but a stronger version. Kelly is already 230lbs in his rookie year, Bill Walton was barely 209lbs (lol).

[JMarkJohns]

Ryan Kelly would probably be an all nba player in the 80s imo...dude is pretty darn athletic relative to 80s players.

Chase Budinger, too! Cracker Ginger has like a 40-inch vert and was co-MVP of McD AA game with Durant!

[apalisoc_9]

I waz watching tapes of Jerry West with a few buddies of mine two weeks ago who were sadly mainstream fans.Gave me a headache..I had to watch any basketbsll that day to make up for that shit game..I ended up watching Shane Larkin and boy was it aspirin to my eyes

[apalisoc_9]

Agreed, but a stronger version. Kelly is already 230lbs in his rookie year, Bill Walton was barely 209lbs (lol).

Pretty much. Can you google and post the dunk ryan kelly made two weeks ago? Im on my phone...dude.would be a legit superstar in the 70s.

[HarlemHeat37]

I think it's their lack of athleticism, a lot of these white american guys play fundamental basketball and it works at the collegiate level, but ultimately fails in the pros where it gets overruled by elite athleticism.

Ya, it makes you pause and think when you realize that so many of the superstars in that era were playing in a league where over the quarter of the players were White Americans:lol..

[apalisoc_9]

KL2, you ever going to send me that referal brah? I know you told me three days ago work you work for a great Organization office..would help me in my dream of doing something related to the NBA.

Help a young fella out...I promised i wont disclose organization so help a nigga out man

[lefty]

Still haven't heard any counter arguments. Nostalgia is a funny thing.

There can't be counter arguments if there is no argument.

[apalisoc_9]

There can't be counter arguments if there is no argument.

You are starting to make me realize that messi>diego with these takes of yours

[lefty]

You are starting to make me realize that messi>diego with these takes of yours

DAF would certainly agree with you

[midnightpulp]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league :lol Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the shit out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be fuckin' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man (90's version), Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

[apalisoc_9]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league :lol Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the shit out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be fuckin' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired by now if he was a 90's player. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man, Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

Even if you are to assume todays players are only minimally more atheletic, youd have to be lying if you think that the previous eras were just as skillful.

No way..

Todays players are just more skillful.Period.

[midnightpulp]

Even if you are to assume todays players are only minimally more atheletic, youd have to be lying if you deny that the previous eras were just as skillful.

No way..

No. I said there have been gains in skill, but it's not this massive exponential leap from the 80's to today. It's also not hard to evolve your skills rather quickly, just look at Leonard's progression. But as much as skills have improved among the wings, they've plummeted for bigs. Like I said, it's why Tim Duncan can still play at not just a high level, but a very high level. Bigs today are either straight monkeyballers or jumpshooters. You can blame AAU for this, since if you're an athletic and tall player coming through that system, you can basically coast on your size/athleticism advantage, even in the NCAA, until the NBA. Think of a piece of shit like Nerlens Noel. And a player like Anthony Davis is basically a very, very poor man's David Robinson, from skills to athleticism.

[Silver&Black]

I think we all agree that today's players are bigger, quicker, stronger, etc.

But, you can't take the best players of other generations and automatically assume that they couldn't/wouldn't find a way to succeed in today's game. Just some random guy sitting at the end of an 80's bench....sure I'll go with that.

I mean for god's sake....Larry Legend a D-Leaguer at best? Really?

[lefty]

:wow imagine Bird in today's softer NBA, would get more FT's, score more 3 pointers and don't get me started on his high basketball IQ vs athletic dumbasses like DeAndre Jordan

[apalisoc_9]

:wow imagine Bird in today's softer NBA, would get more FT's, score more 3 pointers and don't get me started on his high basketball IQ vs athletic dumbasses like DeAndre Jordan

Birds high IQ traded Kawi leonard for a wannabe pornstar

[apalisoc_9]

No. I said there have been gains in skill, but it's not this massive exponential leap from the 80's to today. It's also not hard to evolve your skills rather quickly, just look at Leonard's progression. But as much as skills have improved among the wings, they've plummeted for bigs. Like I said, it's why Tim Duncan can still play at not just a high level, but a very high level. Bigs today are either straight monkeyballers or jumpshooters. You can blame AAU for this, since if you're an athletic and tall player coming through that system, you can basically coast on your size/athleticism advantage, even in the NCAA, until the NBA. Think of a piece of shit like Nerlens Noel. And a player like Anthony Davis is basically a very, very poor man's David Robinson, from skills to athleticism.

Bigs are much more talented and athletic in todays game. Hakeem, Drob and many other 90s guys are in my opinion modern basketball players.

I think in general the 90s was the beggining of modern era basketball in terms of athletic ability..the skill was still improving and the system was nowhere near to todays smart offense.

[midnightpulp]

I think we all agree that today's players are bigger, quicker, stronger, etc.

But, you can't take the best players of other generations and automatically assume that they couldn't/wouldn't find a way to succeed in today's game. Just some random guy sitting at the end of an 80's bench....sure I'll go with that.

I mean for god's sake....Larry Legend a D-Leaguer at best? Really?

Strength and athleticism peaked in the 90's and has stayed about that point ever since. Not because 90's players were such great athletic specimens, but human's can't much more athletic than they are now. Still haven't seen a freak like David Robinson. Lebron is probably the closet thing with his overall size/speed/athleticism ratio.

We've seen a gain in the size/athleticism dept since the 80's, though. Not because those athletes were shit, but because they trained differently for a different style of basketball that prioritized stamina over everything else. In those days, players were loathe to put on bulk/muscle because they didn't want compromise their stamina and quickness. It's also why Byron Scott, a player from that era, is so obsessed with running those silly suicide drills. He's stuck in a era that really didn't go too deep into the bench, there was a lot more running and fast breaking, and you needed better conditioning than your opponents to win games.

[midnightpulp]

Bigs are much more talented and athletic in todays game. Hakeem, Drob and many other 90s guys are in my opinion modern basketball players.

I think in general the 90s was the beggining of modern era basketball in terms of athletic ability..the skill was still improving and the system was nowhere near to todays smart offense.

Like who?

Dwight Howard? Shit

DeAndre Jordan? Shit

Greg Monroe? Shit-to-Decent

Andre Drummond? Decent

Hassan Whiteside? Decent/Good

Gobert? Decent

Bigs rarely carry 2 way loads anymore, and primarily exist as monkeyballing rebounders and shotblockers who get a lot of their points off put backs/lobs. Davis is the only "complete" big, and he doesn't seem as good as advertised. It's why way past their prime skillful/high IQ bigs like Pau and Tim can still get doubles-doubles in their sleep. And it's not a function of the game moving to the perimeter, either. We'd even see more lethal offense the league over if these AAU reared players had developed anything resembling an offensive game.

[apalisoc_9]

Like who?

Dwight Howard? Shit

DeAndre Jordan? Shit

Greg Monroe? Shit-to-Decent

Andre Drummond? Decent

Hassan Whiteside? Decent/Good

Gobert? Decent

Bigs rarely carry 2 way loads anymore, and primarily exist as monkeyballing rebounders and shotblockers who get a lot of their points off put backs/lobs. Davis is the only "complete" big, and he doesn't seem as good as advertised. It's why way past their prime skillful/high IQ bigs like Pau and Tim can still get doubles-doubles in their sleep. And it's not a function of the game moving to the perimeter, either. We'd even see more lethal offense the league over if these AAU reared players had developed anything resembling an offensive game.
If you are comparing them to 90s players obviously the guys you mentioned arent as good as drob.

But ive already stated a million times that modern basketball started in the 90s...


The guys you listed are preneial all stars in the 80..and are superstars in the 70

[mystargtr34]

Still blacker than Kirby tbh

Meine nigga :toast

[midnightpulp]

If you are comparing them to 90s players obviously the guys you mentioned arent as good as drob.

But ive already stated a million times that modern basketball started in the 90s...


The guys you listed are preneial all stars in the 80..and are superstars in the 70

Probably, I mean, they're all-star level players today, and today's game is kind of like an evolved 80's style of basketball, but Kareem and McHale are still getting theirs against them. 80's wasn't really a big-oriented era, though. As I said, the whole strategy back then was about fast breaking and running your opponent to exhaustion. It's why the physiques of 80's players look more like marathon runners. Lean, but not much musculature. Teams with big lops at center, like the Utah Jazz (Eaton) even with Karl Malone and the Bullets with Manute Bol were terrible-to-average teams. Only the Rockets made any noise with a twin tower lineup, but Hakeem and Sampson could run the floor pretty well. Still, the most wins they got in the era was 51.

[Spurtacular]

Even if you are to assume todays players are only minimally more atheletic, youd have to be lying if you think that the previous eras were just as skillful.

No way..

Todays players are just more skillful.Period.

Doubt that. All Star weekend stopped the skills competition because players were embarrassing themselves.

[z0sa]

You were decapitated when?

:lmao

[Spurtacular]

:lmao adam morrison/jimmer fredette caliber player in your top 15 all time

Whom do you speak of?

[Brazil]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league :lol Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the shit out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be fuckin' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man, Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

/ thread

[SpursFan86]

Never knew evolution happened so rapidly...humans are practically an entire different species compared to 30 years ago :wow

[UZER]

It's unfair to compare eras when that's all the players knew at that time. You have to adjust/ inflate their skill set based having access to everything available today. It's like saying today's kid gamers are far superior to 70s/80s kid gamers. Of course they are, but the kids from the 80s where ever only allowed to max out at 2 button controller. Nowadays, the first controller put in a kids hands has a minimum 10 buttons.

The only difference from humans born 500 years ago and today are the resources available in the eras they grew up in.

[baseline bum]

I just can't imagine anyone who ever actually watched Bird play could shit all over him like this. He was like taking Paul Pierce and adding Boris Diaw's interior passing.

[apalisoc_9]

It's unfair to compare eras when that's all the players knew at that time. You have to adjust/ inflate their skill set based having access to everything available today. It's like saying today's kid gamers are far superior to 70s/80s kid gamers. Of course they are, but the kids from the 80s where ever only allowed to max out at 2 button controller. Nowadays, the first controller put in a kids hands has a minimum 10 buttons.

The only difference from humans born 500 years ago and today are the resources available in the eras they grew up in.

I think this is a fair take. In a vacuum though Bird is probably just as good as josh mcroberts. The guys that cant accept this is delusional

[Trill Clinton]

hilarious thread, op:toast

[BD24]

This shit show of a thread is still going on?

[pgardn]

KL2, you ever going to send me that referal brah? I know you told me three days ago work you work for a great Organization office..would help me in my dream of doing something related to the NBA.

Help a young fella out...I promised i wont disclose organization so help a nigga out man

The definition of severe hallucinations ^

[pgardn]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league :lol Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the shit out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be fuckin' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man (90's version), Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

This is actually very estute.

There are bio mechanical limits to what the human body can do. Olympic records,in the purest physical events, have leveled off. And the inability to realize the difference from a prime 60s player, and a prime 80s player (in which color barriers were breaking down) is noted. This self proclaimed basketball genius has not an ounce of historical perspective.

Apoplectic thinks we have evolved into some sort of large chimp. Too many superhero video games. "That dude has an 85 rating on x-box" or whatever. Use these lines in the interview for NBA scout...

Tell us how it works out Apo. And be sure to reference this site for your future employment in the NBA. We can help point out some of the classic posts demonstrating psychosis.

[Killakobe81]

I just can't imagine anyone who ever actually watched Bird play could shit all over him like this. He was like taking Paul Pierce and adding Boris Diaw's interior passing.

Bird was great still would be great and i loved the 80s but the reality is for those saying Durant is shitty on Defense ... Bird would have way more trouble defending any high level SF . Kiwi for example is no where close to Bird on offense and his IQ although good is nowhere close to Bird. But over a 7 game series ill take kiwi because i truly believe his size and athleticism would cause more problems both ways ...(if matched up with Bird)
Now if if you asked me which player would i choose to add to the this years Dubs to make them unstoppable i take Bird. Because if he is playing in Harrison Barnes spot Dubs may never lose ...Bird would be murder on a team like that ...so its not cut and dry these comparisons. But Bird is the 2nd best SF still ...Kiwi is not even top 3 yet. He is arguablu only third in the league right now.

[baseline bum]

Bird was great still would be great and i loved the 80s but the reality is gor those saying Durant is shitty on Defense ... Bird would have way more trouble defending any high level SF . Kiwi for example is no where close to Bird on offense and his IQ alrhough good is nowhere close to Bird. But over a 7 game series ill take kiwi because i truly believe his size and athleticism would cause more problems both ways ...(if matched up with Bird)
Now if if you asked me which player would i choose to add to the this years Dubs to make them unstoppable i take Bird. Because if he is playing in Harrison Barnes spot Dubs may never lose ...Bird would be murder on a team like that ...so its not cut and dry these comparisons. But Bird is the 2nd best SF still ...Kiwi is not even top 3 yet. He is arguablu only third in the league right now.

Bird was no doubt a shitty defender, but look how many MVPs of late have been garbage on that end: Durant, Nowitzki, Kobe, Nash, Iverson are all crap defenders. That's why you have role players on teams.

[Cry Havoc]

Bird was great still would be great and i loved the 80s but the reality is gor those saying Durant is shitty on Defense ... Bird would have way more trouble defending any high level SF . Kiwi for example is no where close to Bird on offense and his IQ alrhough good is nowhere close to Bird. But over a 7 game series ill take kiwi because i truly believe his size and athleticism would cause more problems both ways ...(if matched up with Bird)
Now if if you asked me which player would i choose to add to the this years Dubs to make them unstoppable i take Bird. Because if he is playing in Harrison Barnes spot Dubs may never lose ...Bird would be murder on a team like that ...so its not cut and dry these comparisons. But Bird is the 2nd best SF still ...Kiwi is not even top 3 yet.

Durant is obviously more athletic than Bird. However, there's no way you can conclusively say that Bird would struggle more than KD does today on defense. Bruce Bowen was not a freak by NBA standards and was one of the best defenders in the league. A hobbled Tim Duncan is one of the best defenders in the league this year.

Durant was probably the equal of Bird on offense if you only consider shooting. However, Bird's complete feel for the game, his mastery and background of knowledge, as well as his instincts for where he needed to be in each play were head and shoulders above Durant. It's obviously difficult to rate "feel", but it's easy to see with the way Bird passed and handled the ball when not creating his own shot that he was far more well-rounded than Durant, who doesn't seem to fit in as well if he's not scoring. Bird would be a monster on any team today that could use his range and his passing ability to punish aggressive defenses.

Also, taking Kawhi over Bird is something that would have likely been considered lunacy last year, and only because of his recent explosion on offense does it make sense that Kawhi could potentially hold his own -- but in that respect Kawhi is on the cusp of becoming a truly rare player -- the guy who can score 25+ points per game while being a top 3 defender (if not outright, the very best) in the League. How many players have been capable of that in NBA history? Almost any other season and Kawhi would be a very real MVP candidate.

[TDfan2007]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league :lol Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the shit out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be fuckin' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man (90's version), Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

This farce of a thread should have ended with this post. Great points all around. Unfortunately, I think OP is just making a click-bait thread to troll ST. Doubt OP actually believes what he's saying...

[baseline bum]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league :lol Dirk is still going strong, as well.

The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.

Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the shit out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be fuckin' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man (90's version), Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.

Sad people forget how great Bird was, and same with Magic. Was it Buss that Kareem went to and complained about Magic's baseball passes? And then Buss told Kareem you better catch the fucking ball. :lol

Still never seen as devastating a passer on the break as Magic. Damn those baseball passes he'd make a couple of times a game were incredible, no one ever picked those off and they were a guaranteed two every time.

[TDfan2007]

Pretty much. Can you google and post the dunk ryan kelly made two weeks ago? Im on my phone...dude.would be a legit superstar in the 70s.

:lol is this another one of those "Harlem told me to make it" threads meant to unite ST against a ludicrously contrarian take?

You should stick to regurgitating Lowe's Grantland takes, tbh...

[KL2]

Great players evolve with the times. As I've pointed out to Apa and KL2 many, many times, human athleticism has already peaked. Long jump, high jump, hurdles, etc records have stagnated for about 30 years now. Only the 100m has seen any progress, and scientists say Bolt is near the theoretical peak of human speed. I mean, a one legged Tim Duncan is still a top big man in today's supposedly hyper athletic/hyper skilled league :lol Dirk is still going strong, as well.

You haven't proved anything other than referring to mostly olympic sports that primarily require technique. You've also blatantly ignored how much bigger athletes have gotten in relation to their skill sets like the 100m record being owned by a 6'5 200lb man. If you were over 230-240+ in the NBA you were a stiff, if you have evidence proving other wise provide it. 270lb SF's like Lebron didn't exist, 6'11 270lb jump shooters like Aldridge didn't exist, 280lb PF's like Diaw that could play PG didn't exist, again, provide your evidence. The amount of ball handlers in this league that are 230+ is crazy.


You completely ignored how much bigger, faster, stronger athletes in the NFL have gotten. To say there aren't better athletes in the NBA is to say there aren't better athletes in the NFL because they literally both benefited from the same types of workouts, nutrition, etc. why are you ignoring that fact?




The primary reasons the NBA game looks so much more fluid and skillful today has a lot more to do with the rule changes and an overall massive evolution of offensive systems than any kind of meaningful gain in athleticism (there's been gains in skill, but not to the extent claimed). David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, and Hakeem make bigs today look athletically/skillfully pedestrian. It's why a senior citizen Tim Duncan can sleepwalk to a double-double every night.


Bigs today would be able to take a lot of those guys out on the perimeter and break them down with ball handling or by getting wide open jumpers, in the 80's if you got blown by you could hand check and easily slow them down. It's MUCH harder to defend ball handlers when you cannot hand check, you actually need lateral speed in today's league.

245lb big men could not do this in the 80's, this 20 year old Willie Cauley-Stein is as big as Patrick Ewing but moves like a guard on defense:


http://i64.tinypic.com/2llnlw0.jpg

Do you see how mobile bigs are? The balance it takes, the mobility, the explosiveness? Players this big and this agile did not exist back then. How many bigs in this league cannot run the floor? Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer.


Tim Duncan can't guard mobile 4's, any time you get him out on the perimeter he's a huge liability. Duncan has also extended his career by proper nutrition, proper exercise, and the medical technology we have today. If he was playing in the 80's his knees would've most likely been shot after 10 years, for sure he would not have been playing at this level. This is just another example why the NBA is better, guys are taking better care of their bodies, it leads to longer careers.


Overall wing depth is greater, sure, but Jordan is still lighting up today's game, probably even more so because he would be playing in a more evolved system than the Triangle and under rule changes that amplify all of his strengths. Bird would kill in pace-and-space. He'd stretch 4 the shit out opposing offenses, and unlike a lot stretch 4s, who function as mostly spot up shooters, Bird would be able to devastate opponents with his passing as defenses scramble to cover him. He would also do damage from the midpost. Pippen couldn't stop him from there. I don't know if he would reach top ten status playing exclusively in this era, but he would be consistent all-star and MVP winner/candidate. A small ball lineup with Bird at the 4 would be fuckin' scary. Today's game actually rewards basketball IQ and skills more than ever before. Manu is probably retired at 37 if he played in the 90's. That era wouldn't suit the current skillset and athleticism he has at his advanced age.

The only players who don't make it today are the thugs, the X-Man (90's version), Mahorn, John Salley type of players only good for hard fouls and intimidation. Bird, Magic, Jordan, Pippen, etc would easily evolve as us Spurs fans have seen Duncan evolve about 30 times.


PGs are far superior it's not close with their ball handling skills
SG's are becoming combo guards, shorter, but heavier, more compact and explosive versions which gives the illusion they weigh the same as most 80's-90's guards.
SF's are fucking huge, most guys are over 230+ and are very athletic, 230+ was the size of most bigs back then.
Bigs are becoming more perimeter oriented and are much better ball handlers/shooters, their mobility has increased significantly throughout the years.


Btw, Pippen never had to guard the players Leonard's guarding these days. Leonard also has 20lbs of muscle on him too lol, Pippen would probably get torn up against today's perimeter players, he couldn't even guard a rookie Iverson who tore Jordan's 55 win bulls team up.

[apalisoc_9]

You haven't proved anything other than referring to mostly olympic sports that primarily require technique. You've also blatantly ignored how much bigger athletes have gotten in relation to their skill sets like the 100m record being owned by a 6'5 200lb man. If you were over 230-240+ in the NBA you were a stiff, if you have evidence proving other wise provide it. 270lb SF's like Lebron didn't exist, 6'11 270lb jump shooters like Aldridge didn't exist, 280lb PF's like Diaw that could play PG didn't exist, again, provide your evidence. The amount of ball handlers in this league that are 230+ is crazy.


You completely ignored how much bigger, faster, stronger athletes in the NFL have gotten. To say there aren't better athletes in the NBA is to say there aren't better athletes in the NFL because they literally both benefited from the same types of workouts, nutrition, etc. why are you ignoring that fact?





Bigs today would be able to take a lot of those guys out on the perimeter and break them down with ball handling or by getting wide open jumpers, in the 80's if you got blown by you could hand check and easily slow them down. It's MUCH harder to defend ball handlers when you cannot hand check, you actually need lateral speed in today's league.

245lb big men could not do this in the 80's, this 20 year old Willie Cauley-Stein is as big as Patrick Ewing but moves like a guard on defense:


http://i64.tinypic.com/2llnlw0.jpg

Do you see how mobile bigs are? The balance it takes, the mobility, the explosiveness? Players this big and this agile did not exist back then. How many bigs in this league cannot run the floor? Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer.


Tim Duncan can't guard mobile 4's, any time you get him out on the perimeter he's a huge liability. Duncan has also extended his career by proper nutrition, proper exercise, and the medical technology we have today. If he was playing in the 80's his knees would've most likely been shot after 10 years, for sure he would not have been playing at this level. This is just another example why the NBA is better, guys are taking better care of their bodies, it leads to longer careers.




PGs are far superior it's not close with their ball handling skills
SG's are becoming combo guards, shorter, but heavier, more compact and explosive versions which gives the illusion they weigh the same as most 80's-90's guards.
SF's are fucking huge, most guys are over 230+ and are very athletic, 230+ was the size of most bigs back then.
Bigs are becoming more perimeter oriented and are much better ball handlers/shooters, their mobility has increased significantly throughout the years.


Btw, Pippen never had to guard the players Leonard's guarding these days. Leonard also has 20lbs of muscle on him too lol, Pippen would probably get torn up against today's perimeter players, he couldn't even guard a rookie Iverson who tore Jordan's 55 win bulls team up.

RIP midnightpulp

[lefty]

midnightpulp shitting on this thread :lol

[Spurtacular]

Bird was no doubt a shitty defender

As a one v one perimeter defender, Bird was nothing special. But he did everything else really well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ixy8Uttq0

[Spurtacular]

:lol is this another one of those "Harlem told me to make it" threads meant to unite ST against a ludicrously contrarian take?



Haha. Harlem and Ap are in league.

[Spurtacular]

People talking about this and that 3 of today supposedly burning Bird are forgetting that Bird would probably play mostly 4 in today's NBA. And he would torch today's 4's on the perimeter and today's 3's in the post.

[Cry Havoc]

Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer.

:lmao

[Mr Bones]

So do you guys also say Jesse Owens is a terrible athlete because his times today wouldn't win college track meets?

[pgardn]

"How many bigs in this league cannot run the floor? Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer. "



So...

How long has it been since you have seen a deer?

For Fucks sake.

[ambchang]

"How many bigs in this league cannot run the floor? Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer. "



So...

How long has it been since you have seen a deer?

For Fucks sake.





Depends on what type of deer. Deers today can out run and out jump Deers in the 80s because of better grass and water. 290 lb Deers today can clear a backyard fence and turn tight corners in backyards because houses in the suburbs are getting smaller and they have to be able to do those things to survive. They simple an move like those 180lb Deers in the 80s could but with all this extra power and strength.

Not to mention the advancements of genetically modified crops, which cross bred with wild strains and provided the deer with better nutrition overall. Genetically modified foods simply weren't that popular in the 80s but globalism made it big around the world now European Deers are making the jump to North America, and you can see that native North American white tailed Deers went from 25% of the population down to about 7% today. The fact that you had so many native white tailed deer back in the 80s basically tells you about how weak Deers were in general back then.

Finally, Deers in the 90s were boring. You can't really watch them run because they just poor around. The Deers nowadays run with purpose and agility. Just so much more aesthetically pleasing.

[Kawhitstorm]

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/51093cbeeab8ead03500000d-480/kobe-bryant.jpg

[KL2]

People talking about this and that 3 of today supposedly burning Bird are forgetting that Bird would probably play mostly 4 in today's NBA. And he would torch today's 4's on the perimeter and today's 3's in the post.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1986.html

Look at how light players used to be, damn.


Bird was 6'9 220, 230 at the most late in his career and it wasn't muscle he put on. He's not going to d up any PF's lmao. He was built a lot like last year's Kyle Anderson (rookie), except 10lbs lighter. He'd get destroyed out there on defense.

Aldridge-6'11 270+
Griffin-6'10 260+
Green-6'8 240+
Nowitzki-7'0 250+
Millsap-6'8 250
Bosh-6'11 250+
Davis-6'10 250+
Randolph-6'9 270+
Favors-6'10 265+
Porzingis-7'3 240
Cousins-6'11 280+
West-6'10 250+
Diaw-6'10 270+
Bonner-6'10 240+
etc.

80's PF's featured players like:

Rambis-6'8 213lbs
Mchale-6'10 210lbs
Thirdkill-6'7 195lbs
Nance-6'10 205lbs
Buck Williams-6'8 216lbs
Thorpe-6'9 225lbs
Issel-6'9 235lbs
Sampson-7'4 228lbs
etc.

Most of those guys were not athletic either, most of them were stiffs, they weren't the PF's you see today that are heavy but explosive. Players started to get bigger mid 80's-early 90's as they utilized new workouts and strength and conditioning coaches became widespread. Players did put on muscle IF they actually lifted weights but a lot of times they just got all bulky like Magic Johnson or Aguirre, even Malone was pretty damn bulky.

Players add lean, explosive muscle in today's league, better nutrition, workouts and actual strength and conditioning coaches make it so easy.

Even a guy like Damian Lillard was benching 300lbs in college, nobody thinks of him being big or strong at 6'3 200lbs but he is lol.

[pgardn]

Depends on what type of deer. Deers today can out run and out jump Deers in the 80s because of better grass and water. 290 lb Deers today can clear a backyard fence and turn tight corners in backyards because houses in the suburbs are getting smaller and they have to be able to do those things to survive. They simple an move like those 180lb Deers in the 80s could but with all this extra power and strength.

Not to mention the advancements of genetically modified crops, which cross bred with wild strains and provided the deer with better nutrition overall. Genetically modified foods simply weren't that popular in the 80s but globalism made it big around the world now European Deers are making the jump to North America, and you can see that native North American white tailed Deers went from 25% of the population down to about 7% today. The fact that you had so many native white tailed deer back in the 80s basically tells you about how weak Deers were in general back then.

Finally, Deers in the 90s were boring. You can't really watch them run because they just poor around. The Deers nowadays run with purpose and agility. Just so much more aesthetically pleasing.

I was expecting him to say yes, and it was dead.

[pgardn]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1986.html

Look at how light players used to be, damn.


Bird was 6'9 220, 230 at the most late in his career and it wasn't muscle he put on. He's not going to d up any PF's lmao. He was built a lot like last year's Kyle Anderson (rookie), except 10lbs lighter. He'd get destroyed out there on defense.

Aldridge-6'11 270+
Griffin-6'10 260+
Green-6'8 240+
Nowitzki-7'0 250+
Millsap-6'8 250
Bosh-6'11 250+
Davis-6'10 250+
Randolph-6'9 270+
Favors-6'10 265+
Porzingis-7'3 240
Cousins-6'11 280+
West-6'10 250+
Diaw-6'10 270+
Bonner-6'10 240+
etc.

80's PF's featured players like:

Rambis-6'8 213lbs
Mchale-6'10 210lbs
Thirdkill-6'7 195lbs
Nance-6'10 205lbs
Buck Williams-6'8 216lbs
Thorpe-6'9 225lbs
Issel-6'9 235lbs
Sampson-7'4 228lbs
etc.

Most of those guys were not athletic either, most of them were stiffs, they weren't the PF's you see today that are heavy but explosive. Players started to get bigger mid 80's-early 90's as they utilized new workouts and strength and conditioning coaches became widespread. Players did put on muscle IF they actually lifted weights but a lot of times they just got all bulky like Magic Johnson or Aguirre, even Malone was pretty damn bulky.

Players add lean, explosive muscle in today's league, better nutrition, workouts and actual strength and conditioning coaches make it so easy.

Even a guy like Damian Lillard was benching 300lbs in college, nobody thinks of him being big or strong at 6'3 200lbs but he is lol.

Nice job tweaking the weights.

[Cry Havoc]

Dirk is 250+ :lmao riiiiiiiight.

[midnightpulp]

You haven't proved anything other than referring to mostly olympic sports that primarily require technique. You've also blatantly ignored how much bigger athletes have gotten in relation to their skill sets like the 100m record being owned by a 6'5 200lb man. If you were over 230-240+ in the NBA you were a stiff, if you have evidence proving other wise provide it. 270lb SF's like Lebron didn't exist, 6'11 270lb jump shooters like Aldridge didn't exist, 280lb PF's like Diaw that could play PG didn't exist, again, provide your evidence. The amount of ball handlers in this league that are 230+ is crazy.

Bolt is one athlete, an outlier. You can't just refer to him as an example of athletic evolution across the board as much I can't use David Robinson (still unequaled as far as size/speed/athleticism ratio go in the NBA) as an example of how much better athletes were overall in the 90's. All of Bolt's comp aside from Powell still has the traditional ~6ft, 160-180lb sprinter build.

I also see you keep referring to the jump shooting, ball handling, passing evolution among bigger players. That is a SKILL evolution, not an athletic evolution, and with regard to perimeter oriented bigs who can shoot and dribble (many bigs still can't even do that), that is an evolution that was dictated by rule changes more than any kind of natural progression. For all the skills gain in those areas, bigs lost skills in the post. DeAndre, Dwight Howard, Whiteside, Davis are all flat out shit in the post. Again, why do you think Duncan can still play against these guys on one leg? Bird and Magic were Boris Diaw 30 years ago. I also like the way you deflect to his weight as if that's a positive. If he wasn't a fatass, he'd be even more dangerous, as he was when he was a lean 210-220 when he first came into the league. And :lmao at LMA being 270lb.

So yeah, you haven't proven there has been any great leap in athleticism from the 60's to today. There's been progress with better training methods and nutrition, but not some exponential leap that has produced 50" verticals for most NBA players.



You completely ignored how much bigger, faster, stronger athletes in the NFL have gotten. To say there aren't better athletes in the NBA is to say there aren't better athletes in the NFL because they literally both benefited from the same types of workouts, nutrition, etc. why are you ignoring that fact?

Do you know what "much" means? You think a microsecond gain in the 40 is a "leap." Or a 100th of inch in vertical leap is a leap. I don't. And I would contend that point. The Patriots won the Superbowl with a midget, white receiving core and a running back by committee who are all pretty underwhelming athletically. Gronk is the only "freak" in that bunch. The 80's had Deion Sanders, Bo Jackson, Ronnie Lott, Rod Woodson, Lawrence Taylor, Walter Payton, etc, etc, all with pretty much identical size/speed/athleticism ratios to their modern superstar counterparts. Even Charles Woodson, who was a young contemporary of that group in the 90's is leading the league (or was) in INTs :lol. Yeah, "modern" athletes have "exponentially leaped" over their past equivalents. I'll concede tight ends have gotten more athletic, but that's out of demand, once again prompted by certain rule changes and strategies, rather than some kind of natural evolution. The point you continually fail to get and acknowledge is that as the game changes, a player will change with it. If more size and explosiveness is required, they'll train that up. If they need to improve ball handling, they'll improve. You act like Bird, Magic, any past great that was an athletic or skillful freak by any measure wouldn't be able to evolve because they're playing with human beings who have gone through some kind of magical athletic evolution in 50 years. Bill Russell was a freak. Give a 20 year old Russell a year of development under modern conditions, and he's terrorizing opposing offenses and dominating in the pick-and-roll. Same with Wilt. Oscar. Etc.


Bigs today would be able to take a lot of those guys out on the perimeter and break them down with ball handling or by getting wide open jumpers, in the 80's if you got blown by you could hand check and easily slow them down. It's MUCH harder to defend ball handlers when you cannot hand check, you actually need lateral speed in today's league.

See above. If you're an athlete, lateral quickness is not something magically foreign to you. If they need to train that attribute, they would.


245lb big men could not do this in the 80's, this 20 year old Willie Cauley-Stein is as big as Patrick Ewing but moves like a guard on defense:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKVqpXl3M18

I've also seen D-Rob cross Cedric Ceballos out of his shoes (literally). And there wasn't some leap from 80's basketball to the early 90's. And where is your cut off point for bigs?

6'9, 260:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uWPKNUwEtw

Most of those clips are of past his prime Malone. He was even better on the break and open floor in the 80's/90's. Still a choker, though. And lol at bigs being as mobile as Hakeem, David Robinson, Orlando-era Shaq, 20-25 year old Sabonis. Duncan still ranks ahead of all these modern lops. Yeah, bigs today have very imposing and unstoppable athleticism that the supposedly slowfooted bigs of the past can't handle on either end. And yeah, Duncan can't step out and guard stretch 4s. I mean, he is 40 with one leg. In any event, for as much as a Kevin McHale couldn't guard Blake on the perimeter, Blake couldn't guard him in the post (and neither could DeMonkey).


Do you see how mobile bigs are? The balance it takes, the mobility, the explosiveness? Players this big and this agile did not exist back then. How many bigs in this league cannot run the floor? Even Marjanovic at 7'3 290lbs runs like the court like a deer.

Boban runs the court like a deer :lmao. Now I know you're really biased toward modern players.


Tim Duncan can't guard mobile 4's, any time you get him out on the perimeter he's a huge liability. Duncan has also extended his career by proper nutrition, proper exercise, and the medical technology we have today. If he was playing in the 80's his knees would've most likely been shot after 10 years, for sure he would not have been playing at this level. This is just another example why the NBA is better, guys are taking better care of their bodies, it leads to longer careers.

Sure, but an evolution of medicine isn't an evolution of innate human athleticism. If you want me to concede the massive superiority of today's players compared to a period like the 80's (which isn't a fair comparison, since they trained very differently for the game back then, since it was much more high tempo), I want to see raw numbers: vertical leaps, baseline-to-baseline times, shuttle times, etc, etc. You seem to be all too impressed by physique and muscle definition. Yeah, they had that even in the 60's.

http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_article_image/im61ky7uicopyzy5nrdn.jpg

Are players today superior? Sure. But not massively so compared to post-merger NBA players (there was a leap from 60's to 70's ball prompted by the ABA, and guess what, great players from the mid-60s EVOLVED their skillsets to keep up in the 70's. You act like this shit is impossible to achieve). We've seen Jordan evolve his skillset from a wiry, quick penetrator to a more imposing presence who can operate in the post. And even at 40, he was dropping 22ppg per game in '01 on modern players weened on your Eastern Bloc training.


PGs are far superior it's not close with their ball handling skills
SG's are becoming combo guards, shorter, but heavier, more compact and explosive versions which gives the illusion they weigh the same as most 80's-90's guards.
SF's are fucking huge, most guys are over 230+ and are very athletic, 230+ was the size of most bigs back then.
Bigs are becoming more perimeter oriented and are much better ball handlers/shooters, their mobility has increased significantly throughout the years.


Btw, Pippen never had to guard the players Leonard's guarding these days. Leonard also has 20lbs of muscle on him too lol, Pippen would probably get torn up against today's perimeter players, he couldn't even guard a rookie Iverson who tore Jordan's 55 win bulls team up.

:lol Pippen was 230. And :lol he couldn't guard the Rudy Gays, Nick Youngs and Chandler Parsons of the league. For every KD and Lebron, there's 5 trash equivalents. I agree overall wing depth is deeper, but it's not something that Scottie Pippen couldn't handle on a nightly basis. He'd be right up there with Kawhi and Green as the best wing defenders in the league.

http://www.nba.com/history/players/pippen_bio.html

SGs like who? A broken down D-Wade is still putting up good numbers. You mean SGs like Bradley Beal, Klay Thompson, CJ McCollum, Eric Gordon, etc, etc? No bigger than SGs of the 90's (admittedly the 80's players were leaner, but it was more of a stamina game then, and those same players put on weight as the game changed).

The SF position has pretty much remained steady at the 6'6"-6-9" height since the 80's. They were even around 230!

http://www.nba.com/history/players/wilkins_bio.html

Bigs are more mobile, but have shittier fundamentals in the post. Blame AAU and Kevin Garnett for this, since after KG, every big wanted to play as a jumpshooter. It was only AFTER the rule changes that soft jumpshooting perimeter bigs became a strength rather than a liability as they were in the early-mid-00s grit and grind era. The Spurs and Lakers ate those type pace-and-space teams alive in those days. Don't get me wrong, I prefer pace-and-space, but rule changes are what made it an effective strategy, not because athleticism and skillsets changed necessitating its use.

[midnightpulp]

...DP

[midnightpulp]

I know I'll be arguing with KL2 about this until the cows come home or Kobe shoots 40%, but the proof is in my favor. If the game underwent these massive jumps from era-to-era (which sometimes only last a decade), players wouldn't have the long careers they do.

Case(s) in point:

John Havlicek. A rookie in 1963, which for all intents and purposes is the stone-age of NBA basketball. I would argue that basketball took a much, much bigger leap from 1963 to post-merger than it did from post-merger to today. The 3 point shot was introduced. The league became more integrated and much more athletic. Now every team had a Bill Russell level athlete. More teams were added. Yet, Havilcek was consistent throughout his entire career, At 37, he averaged 16 on 45% shooting in 1978.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/havlijo01.html

Kareem. The 70's to 80's saw another transition as the 3 point shot was introduced in 1979-80. The 80's style was dominated by speed, stamina, and spacing, similar to today in many regards. Surely Kareem wouldn't be able to transition?

He had no problem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

Other bigs like Artis Gilmore also seamlessly evolved to the new style of basketball:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

How about Magic?

80's to 90's saw a transition from an open running game to a grind-it-out iso-fest. The league also took a weight jump as players put on muscle bulk since the game was more physical and interior oriented. This era was arguably the height of the athletic center (D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, Zo, Shaq, Dikembe, etc).

A 36 year old HIV riddled Magic with no knees and probably weak stamina came out of retirement after a 4 year layoff and still put up 15, 6, 7 on 46% shooting, and he did so from the PF position.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

Duncan would be my next example, but I doubt I need to go into detail since we all here know his career progression.

But yeah, it'd be impossible for any pre-1997 player to evolve into this era because Eastern Bloc training and "explosiveness." Never mind the fact that sports history is filled with examples of players doing just that over 15-20 year careers. But 2015-16 NBA basketball is somehow the exception because Kawhi Leonard is 230lb :lol

[midnightpulp]

Oh, and watch Hakeem cross the fuck over cats in this video (start at :55):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22O2lApCBBs

:lmao DeMonkey, Marc Gasol, Roy Hibbert, Dwert, Whiteside stopping that.

:lol Bigs couldn't dribble back then
:lol Bigs weren't mobile
:lol Willie Cauley-Bust

Hakeem could also amazingly go into an improvised post move from a perimeter dribble (D-Rob could also kind of do it, but he would just straight use a spin move, more like a guard). You don't see that today with 7 footers.

[Nathan89]

Midnightpulp been shitting on the NBA forum for years.:tu

[midnightpulp]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1986.html

Look at how light players used to be, damn.


Bird was 6'9 220, 230 at the most late in his career and it wasn't muscle he put on. He's not going to d up any PF's lmao. He was built a lot like last year's Kyle Anderson (rookie), except 10lbs lighter. He'd get destroyed out there on defense.

Aldridge-6'11 270+
Griffin-6'10 260+
Green-6'8 240+
Nowitzki-7'0 250+
Millsap-6'8 250
Bosh-6'11 250+
Davis-6'10 250+
Randolph-6'9 270+
Favors-6'10 265+
Porzingis-7'3 240
Cousins-6'11 280+
West-6'10 250+
Diaw-6'10 270+
Bonner-6'10 240+
etc.

80's PF's featured players like:

Rambis-6'8 213lbs
Mchale-6'10 210lbs
Thirdkill-6'7 195lbs
Nance-6'10 205lbs
Buck Williams-6'8 216lbs
Thorpe-6'9 225lbs
Issel-6'9 235lbs
Sampson-7'4 228lbs
etc.

Most of those guys were not athletic either, most of them were stiffs, they weren't the PF's you see today that are heavy but explosive. Players started to get bigger mid 80's-early 90's as they utilized new workouts and strength and conditioning coaches became widespread. Players did put on muscle IF they actually lifted weights but a lot of times they just got all bulky like Magic Johnson or Aguirre, even Malone was pretty damn bulky.

Players add lean, explosive muscle in today's league, better nutrition, workouts and actual strength and conditioning coaches make it so easy.

Even a guy like Damian Lillard was benching 300lbs in college, nobody thinks of him being big or strong at 6'3 200lbs but he is lol.

Missed this post.

If Porzingis played in the 80's, you'd cite his slim build as a negative in being unable to guard the bulked out centers in today's league. You way, way overrate weight/muscle mass. It's not beneficial for every player nor does every player need it depending on their skill set. Your other weights are exaggerated by about 10 to 30 pounds per player (Davis weighs in at 220). More and more players are actually shedding weight as the league is getting quicker/more spaced with all the emphasis on the 3 point shot.

And what's preventing Larry Bird from putting on 10 pounds of bulk/muscle? Furthermore, being much lighter hasn't prevented players like Leonard and even Kyle Anderson from playing good defense on PFs. Since PFs rarely go to the post anymore, having size/bulk isn't as necessary as it once was in effectively guarding them. Most NBA coaches would rather PFs trend lighter now so they can have the speed to step out and guard the stretch 4s/Griffin type players. Kevin Garnett is pretty much the prototype for the modern NBA PF. But yeah, I wouldn't always play Bird at the 4. It'd depend on the matchup and the team he's on. But in any event, he'd be a dangerous weapon to have in the modern NBA. Kawhi, Green, etc ain't stopping him at the SF. And you could use him to draw out players like Zach Randolph and Paul Milsap. Pippen was a quicker leaper than Kawhi, just as long, and roughly the same weight, and Bird shat on him.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=birdla01&p2=pippesc01

http://www.sixthmanjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Kawhi-Leonard.jpg

http://esq.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/15/07/54d8f0abd6d87_-_esq-scottie-pippen-0112-lg.jpg

Avery Johnson could bench 400lb and was one of the quickest players I've ever seen. He was the consensus fastest player in the league for a few seasons. Better strength-to-speed ratio than Parker. Tim Hardaway was a quick beast with size to match.

Nance, Sampson, Thorpe, and Buck Williams were pretty athletic. And McHale, of course, had one the strongest post games ever. As I mentioned before, Hakeem was a cutting edge player in 1986, still more cutting edge than 99% of bigs today, and McHale got the best of him.

Players aren't much heavier today than in the 80's:

http://dbcgmp5q1c16s.cloudfront.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/04103239/Average-Weight.png

And check out the 7 pound dive in average weight after Miami repeated. Like I said, expect players to get lighter now as pace-and-space becomes a league wide (not just for a few teams) strategy and where every team will need to have a small ball lineup they can use.

[Spurtacular]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1986.html

Look at how light players used to be, damn.


Bird was 6'9 220, 230 at the most late in his career and it wasn't muscle he put on. He's not going to d up any PF's lmao. He was built a lot like last year's Kyle Anderson (rookie), except 10lbs lighter. He'd get destroyed out there on defense.

Aldridge-6'11 270+
Griffin-6'10 260+
Green-6'8 240+
Nowitzki-7'0 250+
Millsap-6'8 250
Bosh-6'11 250+
Davis-6'10 250+
Randolph-6'9 270+
Favors-6'10 265+
Porzingis-7'3 240
Cousins-6'11 280+
West-6'10 250+
Diaw-6'10 270+
Bonner-6'10 240+
etc.

80's PF's featured players like:

Rambis-6'8 213lbs
Mchale-6'10 210lbs
Thirdkill-6'7 195lbs
Nance-6'10 205lbs
Buck Williams-6'8 216lbs
Thorpe-6'9 225lbs
Issel-6'9 235lbs
Sampson-7'4 228lbs
etc.

Most of those guys were not athletic either, most of them were stiffs, they weren't the PF's you see today that are heavy but explosive. Players started to get bigger mid 80's-early 90's as they utilized new workouts and strength and conditioning coaches became widespread. Players did put on muscle IF they actually lifted weights but a lot of times they just got all bulky like Magic Johnson or Aguirre, even Malone was pretty damn bulky.

Players add lean, explosive muscle in today's league, better nutrition, workouts and actual strength and conditioning coaches make it so easy.

Even a guy like Damian Lillard was benching 300lbs in college, nobody thinks of him being big or strong at 6'3 200lbs but he is lol.

Oakley, Mahorn, Barkley, Moses Malone.....I could keep going. They make the players you listed sound like wimps.

[ambchang]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1986.html

Look at how light players used to be, damn.


Bird was 6'9 220, 230 at the most late in his career and it wasn't muscle he put on. He's not going to d up any PF's lmao. He was built a lot like last year's Kyle Anderson (rookie), except 10lbs lighter. He'd get destroyed out there on defense.

Aldridge-6'11 270+
Griffin-6'10 260+
Green-6'8 240+
Nowitzki-7'0 250+
Millsap-6'8 250
Bosh-6'11 250+
Davis-6'10 250+
Randolph-6'9 270+
Favors-6'10 265+
Porzingis-7'3 240
Cousins-6'11 280+
West-6'10 250+
Diaw-6'10 270+
Bonner-6'10 240+
etc.

80's PF's featured players like:

Rambis-6'8 213lbs
Mchale-6'10 210lbs
Thirdkill-6'7 195lbs
Nance-6'10 205lbs
Buck Williams-6'8 216lbs
Thorpe-6'9 225lbs
Issel-6'9 235lbs
Sampson-7'4 228lbs
etc.

Most of those guys were not athletic either, most of them were stiffs, they weren't the PF's you see today that are heavy but explosive. Players started to get bigger mid 80's-early 90's as they utilized new workouts and strength and conditioning coaches became widespread. Players did put on muscle IF they actually lifted weights but a lot of times they just got all bulky like Magic Johnson or Aguirre, even Malone was pretty damn bulky.

Players add lean, explosive muscle in today's league, better nutrition, workouts and actual strength and conditioning coaches make it so easy.

Even a guy like Damian Lillard was benching 300lbs in college, nobody thinks of him being big or strong at 6'3 200lbs but he is lol.

Some when did diaw grew two inches and 20+ lbs?

[Killakobe81]

Durant is obviously more athletic than Bird. However, there's no way you can conclusively say that Bird would struggle more than KD does today on defense. Bruce Bowen was not a freak by NBA standards and was one of the best defenders in the league. A hobbled Tim Duncan is one of the best defenders in the league this year.

Durant was probably the equal of Bird on offense if you only consider shooting. However, Bird's complete feel for the game, his mastery and background of knowledge, as well as his instincts for where he needed to be in each play were head and shoulders above Durant. It's obviously difficult to rate "feel", but it's easy to see with the way Bird passed and handled the ball when not creating his own shot that he was far more well-rounded than Durant, who doesn't seem to fit in as well if he's not scoring. Bird would be a monster on any team today that could use his range and his passing ability to punish aggressive defenses.

Also, taking Kawhi over Bird is something that would have likely been considered lunacy last year, and only because of his recent explosion on offense does it make sense that Kawhi could potentially hold his own -- but in that respect Kawhi is on the cusp of becoming a truly rare player -- the guy who can score 25+ points per game while being a top 3 defender (if not outright, the very best) in the League. How many players have been capable of that in NBA history? Almost any other season and Kawhi would be a very real MVP candidate.

Bowen although no Kiwi as an athlete overall had really good no, elite lateral movement that Bird Lacked. Watch Bowen in his prime. Really good defensive stance and able to move and anticipate (Bird has the anticipation but not the lateral quickness). Bowen is was like a Slot DB in the NFL. Didnt have the deep speed or range like a Kiwi but was great at keeping guys like Kobe or Nash in front of him. I tell my kids I coach all the time to watch the players (in man to man) watch their waist and the ball. No matter what they do with their feet as long as they dont get that lead leg past you it doesnt matter just keep moving your feet and mirror his waist ... Bowen did this real well and I am sorry I just cant see Bird doing this well enough matching up with PG, Durant or Lebron. Kiwi is not extremely polished but improving enough on offense that he would be a problem as well. And then on defense did you guys see the way he was blocking Durant's high release in the Game one? Are you guys telling me he doesnt do the EXACT same to Bird? How does Bird Defend KD with a live dribble? Not only is Durant quicker but his handles are guard like. People forget this cuz Russ does the creating and is ball dominant but Durant has really good handles for his size.

Look, as I said earlier based on accomplishments Bird is no less than 2nd at Sf on my list. In his prime, one of the best players I ever saw no doubt about it. I just think he would have a trouble matching up on defense with the elite SF of today's game on defense. Comparisons to relatively unathletic Bowen or Duncan are moot because those guys are HOF level on defense, Bird was not. on offense of course he would still be great maybe even greater but also in today's game he becomes more like Dirk or Nash huge advantage on offense but a liability on defense. Same for magic, tbh accept maybe pre-knee injury this not meant to downgrade Bird or his contributions to the NBA.

I am one of the biggest 80's fans there is on here just being real.

[Killakobe81]

Depends on what type of deer. Deers today can out run and out jump Deers in the 80s because of better grass and water. 290 lb Deers today can clear a backyard fence and turn tight corners in backyards because houses in the suburbs are getting smaller and they have to be able to do those things to survive. They simple an move like those 180lb Deers in the 80s could but with all this extra power and strength.

Not to mention the advancements of genetically modified crops, which cross bred with wild strains and provided the deer with better nutrition overall. Genetically modified foods simply weren't that popular in the 80s but globalism made it big around the world now European Deers are making the jump to North America, and you can see that native North American white tailed Deers went from 25% of the population down to about 7% today. The fact that you had so many native white tailed deer back in the 80s basically tells you about how weak Deers were in general back then.

Finally, Deers in the 90s were boring. You can't really watch them run because they just poor around. The Deers nowadays run with purpose and agility. Just so much more aesthetically pleasing.

Nicely done.

[Killakobe81]

I know I'll be arguing with KL2 about this until the cows come home or Kobe shoots 40%, but the proof is in my favor. If the game underwent these massive jumps from era-to-era (which sometimes only last a decade), players wouldn't have the long careers they do.

Case(s) in point:

John Havlicek. A rookie in 1963, which for all intents and purposes is the stone-age of NBA basketball. I would argue that basketball took a much, much bigger leap from 1963 to post-merger than it did from post-merger to today. The 3 point shot was introduced. The league became more integrated and much more athletic. Now every team had a Bill Russell level athlete. More teams were added. Yet, Havilcek was consistent throughout his entire career, At 37, he averaged 16 on 45% shooting in 1978.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/havlijo01.html

Kareem. The 70's to 80's saw another transition as the 3 point shot was introduced in 1979-80. The 80's style was dominated by speed, stamina, and spacing, similar to today in many regards. Surely Kareem wouldn't be able to transition?

He had no problem.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

Other bigs like Artis Gilmore also seamlessly evolved to the new style of basketball:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html

How about Magic?

80's to 90's saw a transition from an open running game to a grind-it-out iso-fest. The league also took a weight jump as players put on muscle bulk since the game was more physical and interior oriented. This era was arguably the height of the athletic center (D-Rob, Hakeem, Ewing, Zo, Shaq, Dikembe, etc).

A 36 year old HIV riddled Magic with no knees and probably weak stamina came out of retirement after a 4 year layoff and still put up 15, 6, 7 on 46% shooting, and he did so from the PF position.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

Duncan would be my next example, but I doubt I need to go into detail since we all here know his career progression.

But yeah, it'd be impossible for any pre-1997 player to evolve into this era because Eastern Bloc training and "explosiveness." Never mind the fact that sports history is filled with examples of players doing just that over 15-20 year careers. But 2015-16 NBA basketball is somehow the exception because Kawhi Leonard is 230lb :lol

Great points, Mid.

[Killakobe81]

Birds high IQ traded Kawi leonard for a wannabe pornstar

:lmao

[lefty]

midnightpulp with 0 empathy :lol

[Killakobe81]

His popularity probably would've been on par with Jordan, probably would've seen him on a wheaties box or some shit, they would've been in awe of his athleticism.

One of the biggest misnomers about MJ and his success. Taking away the Nike angle, teh reason Jordan is revered he has great fundamentals to go with athleticism. Other guys like David Thomspson, Roy Marble, kendall Gill etc had Jordanesque athletic gifts. none had the the fundamentals or drive of Jordan ...and I hated Jordan in the 90's (unlike most).

Did some of his 50 point games come against slow white guys or unathletic black guys? Absolutely. But comparing a high jumping gerald green to Mj and saying if he was playing the 80's/90's he would get similar Wheaties type love, is crazy. he would just be a homeless man's David thompson.

[Brazil]

midnightpulp (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=5430) with 0 empathy :lol

:lmao

Oh boy... he made his point in few sentences but as it was not enough he just poured more pain over and over

Imo, one of the best ass whipping of ST history tbh

[Mr Bones]

OP got destroyed in this thread.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Bird is one of the greatest talents I have ever seen and would be unreal in this era that emphasizes ball movement and outside shooting.


Not only that. No hard fouls. No hand checking. No Def 3 seconds. The 80's and early 90's NBA basketball was brutal defensively. The fact Bird put those numbers up in that Era is amazing. Defenders use to be able to mug players.

That is why its hard to compare players from that Era to this era. Players in today's NBA don't have to face the defense that was played 20+ years ago. Bird is a top 10 player easily. He is 7th on my list and I still consider him the best SF to play the game at this point. He was the Duncan of the SF position. Not superior athleticly, but one the of highest BB IQs ever to play the game, which is why he was putting up numbers like this in his 30's.

[Mr Bones]

How is an all time great of all time different from an all time great?

[140]

midnightpulp :wow