Kevin Pelton: Why Kobe Bryant is NOT a top-10 all-time player

[spursistan]

With Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant announcing his retirement from basketball at the end of the 2015-16 season, attention now turns to Bryant's legacy.

Just five months remain in Kobe's career, so this seems like a good time to ask about where he ranks among the all-time greats. In particular, is he one of the 10 best to play the game?

A close reading of the facts suggests the answer is no. As remarkable as his career has been, Bryant's résumé can't quite compare to that of the league's inner-circle Hall of Famers.

Win shares: Kobe ranks No. 15

Win shares, found at Basketball Reference, are our most complete historic NBA metric. They give us a way to compare players across NBA eras.

Although full box-score stats did not become available until 1977-78, when the league started tracking player turnovers, Basketball Reference estimates turnovers and other stats that were not recorded at the time (including steals and blocks before 1973-74) to come up with approximations for player value throughout league history.

Bryant is currently 15th among NBA players in career win shares (172.5), with an outside chance of surpassing Reggie Miller (174.4) by the end of the season, if he improves his level of play. Because he has started so poorly, Bryant has actually lost 0.6 win shares from his career total so far this season.

Expected championships added: Kobe ranks No. 20

As Miller's high ranking suggests, the problem with using win shares as a historic measuring stick is they tend to reward longevity over quality of play. To better reflect the impact players had on their teams, I've developed a model that relates their win shares each season to a typical team's chances of winning a championship.

This model shows value is exponential rather than linear. For instance, a season with 15 win shares (such as Bryant's 2005-06 campaign) is nearly three times as valuable as one with 10 win shares (such as his 2010-11).

A preliminary version of this model shows Bryant 20th all time in expected championships added (ECA), just behind Larry Bird and ahead of the late Moses Malone.

Why Kobe doesn't rate as well by advanced stats:

Added PLAYER CAREER WIN SHARES WS RANK

Wilt Chamberlain
3.82
247.3
2


Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3.14
273.4
1


Michael Jordan
2.69
214.0
4


Karl Malone
1.86
234.6
3


LeBron James
1.84
178.9
11


Oscar Robertson
1.73
189.2
9


David Robinson
1.63
178.7
12


Dirk Nowitzki
1.40
192.0
7


John Stockton
1.32
207.7
5


Tim Duncan
1.30
201.2
6


Bill Russell
1.23
163.5
17


Kevin Garnett
1.23
190.4
8


Charles Barkley
1.22
177.2
13


George Mikan
1.22
87.8
111


Shaquille O'Neal
1.19
181.7
10


Jerry West
1.16
162.6
19


Magic Johnson
1.14
155.8
20


Chris Paul
1.10
131.3
32


Larry Bird
1.05
145.8
23


Kobe Bryant
1.01
173.1
15



Bryant comes out slightly worse by this method because of his lack of truly elite statistical seasons. Bryant's best season in terms of win shares, 2005-06, ranks 102nd in NBA history behind, for example, Stephen Curry's 2014-15 campaign.

That's fairly consistent with what other advanced metrics indicate. Bryant's 2005-06 performance did rank 56th all-time in PER, but his best season by my wins above replacement player statistic (2002-03, with 20.4 WAR) ranks 72nd, dating back to 1977-78.

ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) is even harsher. Because of the need for detailed play-by-play data, RPM is available only since 2000-01, but in that span, Bryant's best rating (plus-6.3 points per 100 possessions in 2007-08) ranks 80th in that span.

These all-in-one metrics are universally picking up that by the standards of all-time great scorers, Bryant was relatively inefficient. Bryant's best season in terms of true shooting percentage (.580 in 2006-07) would rank seventh in Michael Jordan's career, seventh in LeBron James' and behind five of Kevin Durant's seven full seasons.

Since Bryant wasn't an exceptional rebounder or distributor and has never rated especially well statistically as a defender, he would need to be better than his peers as a scorer to provide more value than they did. That was only the case in Bryant's very best seasons.

The verdict

Naturally, the arguments in favor of Bryant's greatness are likely to revolve around the five championships the Lakers won during his career. While it's a bad idea to credit team success to one individual, it is true that Bryant's postseason performance is a point in his favor.

He ranks eighth in career playoff win shares. Factoring in playoff value surely lifts Bryant's all-time rank from 20th, but it's harder to make the case that he should jump all the way into the top 10.

It's not just advanced statistics that are down on Bryant's best seasons. He won only one MVP award, which puts him behind the 12 players (including former Lakers teammate Steve Nash) who won the league's highest honor multiple times.

Although there's a case to be made that Bryant should have won in 2005-06, when he set an NBA record for usage rate and carried a limited Lakers team to the playoffs, Bryant benefited from something of a "lifetime achievement" factor in 2007-08, when he beat Kevin Garnett and Chris Paul for the award.

In terms of the share of MVP votes accumulated over the course of his career, Bryant ranks 11th.

Considering all those factors, I'd ultimately rank Bryant somewhere around the 15th-best player in NBA history. You might move him a few spots in either direction, depending how you value playoff performance versus regular-season success, peak value versus longevity and the league's quality of play over time.

But when it comes to cracking the 10 best NBA players ever, Bryant didn't quite accomplish enough in a career that now has a finish line in sight..

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14254853/is-kobe-bryant-top-10-all-player-nba

https://45.media.tumblr.com/264fa39dd6babb18023f36bfe4118b6f/tumblr_nouyx7BeuD1s3mekdo1_400.gif

[Spurs 4 The Win]

I hate Kobe but he is top 10, lets be honest here

[ambchang]

Consistent with what I have been saying forever, Kobe is a top 13 to 15 player:

In no particular order:
Jordan
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Russell
KAJ
Duncan
Shaq
Moses
Lebron
Oscar
Hakeem

Then the next group:
West
Dr. J
Kobe

Arguments to be made for Dirk, Garnett, Rick Barry, Robinson, and such, but those are long stretches.

[midnightpulp]

:lol It begins.

New Media :tu

[DPG21920]

I hate Kobe but he is top 10, lets be honest here

Why do you say that?

[TrainOfThought5]

Its true... he isnt top ten. But damn close.

Although im VERY surprised someone actually came out and said it.

[Clipper Nation]

Media overrating Kirby as usual by comparing top 10 all-time players to someone who isn't even top 1000.

[DPG21920]

Well thought out article. It's nice to see people trying to form a legit opinion based of research and not just the eye ball test. It really is an antiquated mindset Kobe fans have and they will scream bloody murder as more and more of these things come out .

[spursistan]

:lol It begins.

New Media :tu
can you imagine if he retired in 2007 in an era of Wilbon and other old school simpletons dictating the narrative :lol..

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Why do you say that?

Come on, back when it was Spurs Lakers every year, that dude was fucking assassin, he was unstoppable when he got it going. Just cuz he has sucked lately doesnt mean that he isnt top 10, I think the problem is that a lot of these posters are young and werent around during that time so they never saw it.

[lefty]

Well thought out article. It's nice to see people trying to form a legit opinion based of research and not just the eye ball test. It really is an antiquated mindset Kobe fans have and they will scream bloody murder as more and more of these things come out .


Harlem Bots activated.

[DPG21920]

Come on, back when it was Spurs Lakers every year, that dude was fucking assassin, he was unstoppable when he got it going. Just cuz he has sucked lately doesnt mean that he isnt top 10, I think the problem is that a lot of these posters are young and werent around during that time so they never saw it.

Nah - he's been great and it's not a knock to say he's not top 10. Just because he's done a lot of great things, doesn't mean there weren't negatives. His negatives and by most advanced study, he's not top 10.

[DPG21920]

Harlem Bots activated.

It's the truth - the days of just watching a guy chuck and not looking beyond the basic box score are over. Those who just use terms that can't be proven (he's fierce, blah blah blah) are going by the wayside. He had an amazing career, a ridiculous work eithic and has won at every level.

But his flaws keep him from the top 10 and it's not some travesty to say so.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Nah - he's been great and it's not a knock to say he's not top 10. Just because he's done a lot of great things, doesn't mean there weren't negatives. His negatives and by most advanced study, he's not top 10.

I would put him ahead of Oscar, LeBron, and Moses. I also think Russell is not as good as people give him credit for. But you cant have LeBron ahead of Kobe yet, he needs another title.

[DPG21920]

That doesn't make sense to me. Ring arguments aren't the end all, be all or else Horry is better than Kobe and Russell certainly is. Kobe wasn't the top dog on the title teams either (how many finals MVP's does he have)? He was huge part, but not always the true leader.

Lebron is easily ahead of Kobe whether or not he wins another ring.

[SpursDynasty]

Kobe just wants attention. Announcing retirement at 37. Duncan/Manu were still winning a title at 37/38.

[DAF86]

I hate Kobe but he is top 10, lets be honest here

No, he isn't. Where does this bullshit about Kobe being an undisputed top 10 player comes from?

Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, Hakeem, Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, West, Mikan and some others I'm forgetting all have a case to be above Kobe. Not to mention guys like Curry and Durant who had already proven to have a bigger peak than Bryant.

[TrainOfThought5]

That doesn't make sense to me. Ring arguments aren't the end all, be all or else Horry is better than Kobe and Russell certainly is. Kobe wasn't the top dog on the title teams either (how many finals MVP's does he have)? He was huge part, but not always the true leader.

Lebron is easily ahead of Kobe whether or not he wins another ring.

Its not ring arguments. Its ALPHA ring arguments. And Kobe, at best, has 2. Maybe. Depending on how you feel about the Lakers being a complete bag of dicks Pre and Post-Pau.

[midnightpulp]

Everyone knows me as a Kobe hater, but I'm really not. He was a fine player and just massively overhyped in the NBA's desperation to manufacture the new Jordan. When I say Dirk>Kobe, or Kobe isn't top 10 of all-time, I'm not trolling out of "hate." The stats (and even eye test, i.e. Kobe's defensive issues, even in his prime, and his ball dominance/poor shot selection) simply don't support that claim.

Is he a top ten talent of all-time (footwork, one-on-one unstoppabliity, shot difficulty ability, finishing ability in his prime)? Yeah. But he's not a top ten team basketball player of all-time, and what always held him back was this obsession with personal greatness and filling Jordan's shoes. You can see it in that photo of him eyeing Shaq's Finals MVP with the saltiest look on his face.

[Medvedenko]

More butthurt Spur fans.

[Killakobe81]

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14254853/is-kobe-bryant-top-10-all-player-nba

https://45.media.tumblr.com/264fa39dd6babb18023f36bfe4118b6f/tumblr_nouyx7BeuD1s3mekdo1_400.gif

LOL CP3 over Bird AND Kobe? :rollin
Karl Malone, Dirk and David over Tim? :rollin

Love when SPur fans posts some shit that makes their own guys look bad?
This list is shit ...

[Killakobe81]

Especially sweet when Amb co-signs but then gives is own list. is this metric good or not? If not, why did OP even bother posting? Karl Malone top 5 ...:lol
:rollin

Metrics better than eye test :downspin:

[midnightpulp]

LOL CP3 over Bird AND Kobe? :rollin
Karl Malone, Dirk and David over Tim? :rollin

Love when SPur fans posts some shit that makes their own guys look bad?
This list is shit ...

There's other metrics though that justify that opinion.

[Killakobe81]

Now playoff win shares seems more legit, Kobe is 8th Duncan is 2nd Jordan. I could see SPur fan applauding that list because it does seem to hold up close to the eye test ...

Karl Malone 4th!!!!:lmao

[HarlemHeat37]

Kobe ranks relatively poorly in advanced metrics compared to other all-time greats, but the article is over-relying on Win Shares, an iffy stat, tbh..

[midnightpulp]

Especially sweet when Amb co-signs but then gives is own list. is this metric good or not? If not, why did OP even bother posting? Karl Malone top 5 ...:lol
:rollin

Metrics better than eye test :downspin:

All stats are flawed, but in any event, the variety of these metrics are much more accurate than per game stats. Don't you find it odd that Kobe is underwhelming (relative to other greats) in pretty much every advanced stat known to man? If we don't consider his rings, can you really, honestly, put Kobe in the top 10 list?

Top 10 talent? Sure.

Top 10 team basketball player? I don't think the evidence supports that claim.

The only way Kobe makes the top 10 is if you compare him in a vacuum with players like Wilt, Russell, Oscar, who might not be top ten players if they played in Kobe's era.

[midnightpulp]

Kobe ranks relatively poorly in advanced metrics compared to other all-time greats, but the article is over-relying on Win Shares, an iffy stat, tbh..

Agreed. And what is ADDED Win Shares? A new one to me. I just know of WS and WS/48.

[HarlemHeat37]

And yes, as I said years ago, one of the biggest mistakes Kobe made is not retiring before new-media became prominent, tbh..

[Gutter92]

I'm interested in seeing if Kobe ends the season shooting in the high 20%s...tbh

[DPG21920]

Killa going to cry all year :lol. It's not about "this list". It's about the point the article is making. It's about how the game is looked at now. It's not just this list; many different metrics paint the same picture and that is the point. But Kobe fans already knew that

[Killakobe81]

There's other metrics though that justify that opinion.

That justify Karl Malone top 5? and Dirk, David and KG over Timmy? please do share!!!!

[DAF86]

Kobe isn't on the top 10 but even if he was, it wouldn't take long before somebody else took him out. So, stop arguing about something is not worth arguing about, tbh.

[Killakobe81]

Killa going to cry all year :lol. It's not about "this list". It's about the point the article is making. It's about how the game is looked at now. It's not just this list; many different metrics paint the same picture and that is the point. But Kobe fans already knew that

Take that same article and look at playoff win shares added.
An advanced metric that puts Kobe 8th, Duncan 2nd and MJ 1st.
I can buy that. And you still can t say all advanced metrics point against Kobe when playoff PER and winshares added both do him fine.
I have no issue with metrcis ...my point is like any stat the proponent in any debate on hoops will ALWAYS cherry pick the numbers that fits their argument.
Pelton did the same but at LEASt he admitted that in playoff numbers Kobe's went up and the unworthy chokers fall further down, which makes sense.

It's not about this list, then why post and jump on? Post another thread SEPARATE from this one ... but although a good article that metric at least the regular season one is horse shit.:lol

So when I poke holes in the OP's argument/article it's NOT about this article? :lmao

[BD24]

I agree Kobe is somewhere between 10-15 imo. I can see the justification for 8 or 9 maybe. I personally have him at 12 though. I feel you can't put him above Shaq. Doesn't make since to put him above the guy who carried him to his first 3 titles.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

No, he isn't. Where does this bullshit about Kobe being an undisputed top 10 player comes from?

Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Lebron, Hakeem, Moses Malone, Oscar Robertson, West, Mikan and some others I'm forgetting all have a case to be above Kobe. Not to mention guys like Curry and Durant who had already proven to have a bigger peak than Bryant.

GTFO with Durant and Curry lmfao

[DPG21920]

What :lol? You're emotional & not making sense. No one said anything about him being bad in all metrics. But collectively? Over the biggest sample size (regular season & playoffs) he consistently falls short all in. You can cherry pick a few things he scores well on - not surprising since he's been great. However, holistically he falls short.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Its not ring arguments. Its ALPHA ring arguments. And Kobe, at best, has 2. Maybe. Depending on how you feel about the Lakers being a complete bag of dicks Pre and Post-Pau.

Kobe has 5 rings, two as the undisputed alpha, and three as a sidekick, but he was a MAJOR contributor, Lebron has 2 rings and got bailed the fuck out to get one of them. He isnt ahead of Kobe yet. Needs another, and probably needs 4 to pass Duncan. Especially since Duncan leads him 2-1 head to head.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Kobe isn't on the top 10 but even if he was, it wouldn't take long before somebody else took him out. So, stop arguing about something is not worth arguing about, tbh.
This tbh, he is like 9 or 10 at best. I have him at 10, he will get bumped.

[midnightpulp]

That justify Karl Malone top 5? and Dirk, David and KG over Timmy? please do share!!!!

I don't know much about the WS "ADDED" stat, but Karl Malone is probably near a top 5 all-time regular season player.

Guess what happens in the post-season when we use WS/48:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html?lid=header_leaders

He plummets to 82nd all-time.

Also, the stat you buy (total playoff WS is a bad stat since it's cumulative. More wins you get, more total win shares you invariably get. WS/48 is the better stat).

[DPG21920]

Kobe has 5 rings, two as the undisputed alpha, and three as a sidekick, but he was a MAJOR contributor, Lebron has 2 rings and got bailed the fuck out to get one of them. He isnt ahead of Kobe yet. Needs another, and probably needs 4 to pass Duncan. Especially since Duncan leads him 2-1 head to head.

No argument outside of "rings" has Kobe ahead of Lebron.

[Killakobe81]

What :lol? You're emotional & not making sense. No one said anything about him being bad in all metrics. But collectively? Over the biggest sample size (regular season & playoffs) he consistently falls short all in. You can cherry pick a few things he scores well on - not surprising since he's been great. However, holistically he falls short.

Who is emotional? I find it funny you jumped in on an article that points to an article that Kobe isnt all time top 10 but neither is duncan ...if you do not see the irony in that ...:wow

Lets take a look at list A:

1. Jordan
2. Duncan
3. LeBron
4. Kareem
5. Magic
6. Wilt
7. Shaq
8. Kobe
9. Russell
10. West
11. Bird

Or List B The regular season one, Pelton used in his article? that has Malone 4th?!! :lol

Personally Malone being 4th and over Magic bothers me more than Kobe being 15th ...

[DPG21920]

You still don't get the point of what I said.

[DPG21920]

Still got love for you tho, Killa. Best laker poster on ST

[Killakobe81]

I don't know much about the WS "ADDED" stat, but Karl Malone is probably near a top 5 all-time regular season player.

Guess what happens in the post-season when we use WS/48:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_per_48_career_p.html?lid=header_leaders

He plummets to 82nd all-time.

Also, the stat you buy (total playoff WS is a bad stat since it's cumulative. More wins you get, more total win shares you invariably get. WS/48 is the better stat).

Why because you say so? Wouldnt that artificially favor a player like say Wade if he tapped out got injured after 2006? I dont have an issue with his stat because it's not about judging primes ... I think a legacy argument should be cumulative. And I dont even have a problem with Duncan at 2 over Magic, because Magic's career was cut short by HIV. Like you I have just issues with the regular season ranking as teh basis of his argument and the placemnt of KArl Malone. Sure he was a great player but as the same stat shows for playoffs, he is not a top 5 player. Probably a borderline top 10. Also I get that regular season is a larger sample size but when we are talking all-time greats playoffs is more than enough "sample size". Takes 16 wins to get a chip. Most title teams get at least 20-25 playoff games. If a player like CP3 or McGrady is bouncing out in round one, they should be penalized. This stat does a good job of measuring that.

Anyways I dont care to argue this cuz I already have scoffed at it (regular season) and no one has proved why I should not ...

My list is this by positions:

1st team
C Kareem
PF Duncan
SF Lebron (pending one more James Ring if not Bird)
SG Jordan
PG Magic

2nd Team
C Shaq
PF Dirk or KG (Used to say it was KG but IDK ... Dirk is starting to sway me ...)
SF Bird
SG Kobe
PG Isiah (Curry is creeping up though tbh)

Never saw wilt and dont care about ranking them overall much anymore but I did move Duncan over Kobe based on the past 3 years. Maybe he always was ...but that is when my list changed.

[Killakobe81]

You still don't get the point of what I said.

I get it. But again I wasnt even directing all my comments at you ... like I said the irony of this thread made me :p:

[Splits]

Fuck Off, Kobe (http://deadspin.com/fuck-off-kobe-1745231527)


Drew Magary (http://kinja.com/drewmagary)11/30/15 9:53am (http://deadspin.com/fuck-off-kobe-1745231527)

http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--mJ75r53F--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/vw6ra3z0qkiamyphumvh.jpg

The funniest thing about Kobe Bryant’s retirement “announcement” yesterday is that Kobe Bryant was clearly the last person to know that this would be Kobe Bryant’s final season. Honestly, I thought he had announced it already, given that he’s a broken-down old mummy (http://screengrabber.deadspin.com/on-a-special-night-kobe-bryant-delivers-in-the-clutch-1745200873#_ga=1.67537297.1008031169.1444063776) who can no longer play basketball.

But because it’s 2015, and because nothing in 2015 can happen without being branded to within an inch of its life, yesterday was the day Bryant chose to randomly mark the beginning of the formal commemoration of the final stages of the lead-up to the end of his pre-comeback career (or “regulation time”). I assume there’s already a two-part fall finale planned in which Kobe misses a game-tying layup while also breaking his wrist.

Bryant’s comeback came in the form of a poem (so tasteful) posted over atJeterland (http://www.theplayerstribune.com/dear-basketball/). Derek Jeter, as you recall, is the poster child for turning an otherwise unremarkable final season into a twisted personal brand rela2nch (http://deadspin.com/that-derek-jeter-ad-will-make-you-cry-for-america-1636810518) that no one asked for. Given the deterioration of his abilities and the urgent need for his team to develop its younger talent, Kobe Bryant should retire NOW. Today. He should fuck off in his Ducati and go write thoughtful journal entries or something.

But if he did that, marketers wouldn’t have their required calendar year of lead time to ideate and hold focus groups and produce the perfect, somber, sepia-toned Sprite ad to honor one of the least endearing athletes in modern sports history. Look at this fucking piece of direct mail they handed out in LA yesterday:

671139781691047936

As someone who used to work in advertising, I can promise you that header font was chosen over the course of eighteen grueling conference calls dating back to 2012. And what of that strange symbol at the bottom? Is it a sign of the OCCULT?! No, of course not. No, that’s a fucking logo. Eighteen more conference calls. I’ll let pseudo-mammal Darren Rovell explain:

671166114118950912

WARMS THE COCKLES, does it not? So many memories of campaigns past. I remember the first time I took my children to see Kobe on a Nutella label. But wait! There’s a story (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/738014ff228d4aef8ae10d7f0e7a9252/kobe-bryant-hero-or-villain-or-both) behind that logo. And by story, I mean “brand identity clearly written by a 35-year-old copywriter.” Here’s Kobe regurgitating all the proper talking points (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/738014ff228d4aef8ae10d7f0e7a9252/kobe-bryant-hero-or-villain-or-both) to the AP:

“Hero and villain, it’s a mixture of both,” Bryant said in the interview with The Associated Press. “People are so complicated. It’s never one thing or the other. It’s always a mixture of both things. Certain moments can define you as one thing. Monday, you may be a villain. Tuesday, you may be a hero. It’s always an up-and-down thing.”


So true. One day, you’re throwing cum-stained shirts (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/sports/kobe-police-file-released) at a police officer. The next day, you’re buying turkeys for starving orphans. Everyone is complicated like that!

These retirement tours have to end. They are endless, boring, contrived, and completely out of step with reality. It’s only November. I’m supposed to give a shit about Kobe Bryant retiring when he’s got five AWFUL months of urinating on teammates to go? Were the titles and MVP awards not enough formal adulation? Kobe Bryant built his entire career copying Michael Jordan’s moves and psychopathy, with NONE of the charm. (Even that stupid poem bites off (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/11/29/9816288/kobe-bryant-retirement-open-letter-to-basketball-michael-jordan)Jordan’s retirement.) Why should I celebrate this nutjob’s willful blindness to reality, with his moron coach aiding and abetting it? If anything, Kobe Bryant deserves to finish out his career on some Siberian outpost, dragging his leprous body parts behind him just so he can deny a teammate an open look at the basket.

I’ve said it before: if you want to retire, retire. This instant. If you’ve already announced the end, then the end has already come. Everything afterward is painful and unnecessary. Steve Spurrier quit on the spot this season, and you know what? It takes balls to quit like a coward. It takes balls to risk scrutiny and finally admit, “You know what? I can’t do this,” and walk away, without pre-planning your own season-long ticker tape parade. We’re going to spend the rest of this season whitewashing Kobe Bryant’s legacy for no good reason. He should go home and leave us all alone forever. It’s what that asshole deserves.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

No argument outside of "rings" has Kobe ahead of Lebron.

Why the fuck would rings not matter? :lol

[HarlemHeat37]

Why the fuck would rings not matter? :lol

Do you have Bill Russell as the GOAT?

[midnightpulp]

Why because you say so? Wouldnt that artificially favor a player like say Wade if he tapped out got injured after 2006? I dont have an issue with his stat because it's not judging primes I think a legacy should be cumulative. And I dont even have a problem with Duncan at 2 over Magic, because Magic's career was cut short by HIV. Liek you I have just issues with the regular season ranking of KArl Malone. Sure he was a great player but as teh same stat shows for playoffs, he is not a top 5 player. Probably a borderline top 10.

Anyways I dont care to argue this cuz I already have scoffed at it and no one has proved why I should not ...

My list is this by positions:

1st team
C Kareem
PF Duncan
SF Lebron (pending one more James Ring if not Bird)
SG Jordan
PG Magic

2nd Team
C Shaq
PF Dirk or KG (Used to say it was KG but IDK ... Dirk is starting to sway me ...)
SF Bird
SG Kobe
PG Isiah (Curry is creeping up though tbh)

Never saw wilt and dont care about ranking them overall much anymore but I did move Duncan over Kobe based on the past 3 years. Maybe he always was ...but that is when my list changed.

But the cumulative WS stat could punish players who had the bad luck of being on bad teams for a few years of their career and/or past players who played when only 8 teams made the playoffs (like in the 80's).

The best thing to do with advanced stats is to take all them into consideration and rank appropriately. Admittedly, Kobe is a tough, tough rank, kind of like the inverse of Chris Paul (who dominates every advanced stat category known but has never been past the 2nd round). Real talk, you can put Kobe at 10 or 30 and both could probably be justified. I think he's in that 2nd tier with KG, Barkley, Dirk, Dr. J, etc. I don't see how that's an insult?

[Killakobe81]

Why the fuck would rings not matter? :lol

of course they do. Only on spurstalk do they diminish them this much ...

BTW in the playoff win shares Horry cracks the top 25 (just behind Gino and Hondo) ahead of ... Dr. J, David Robinson and KG ...
On 2nd thought I put dirk as my #2 PF ...
One more interesting note Hakeem is only 15th on the playoff list ... not saying I agree just interesting.:toast

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Do you have Bill Russell as the GOAT?

No, absolutely not, neither do I have Robert Horry as the 2nd GOAT. But in the case of Lebron, he has failed far too many times to get it done as Alpha, he has gotten embarrassed in 3 Finals appearances and looked good in one defeat. Kobe was 5-2 in the Finals and didnt benefit from playing in the East. You have to use common sense when applying the ring count. Ring count obviously is very important, its not the end all though. But you cant put a 2 ring LeBron ahead of a 5 ring Kobe, thats fucking stupid.

[whitemamba]

the media can say what ever, because its full of salty stat loving fat necks. EVery great will comeout and say kobe is top 10, and when it starts im going to serve it to you guys raw.

[Killakobe81]

But the cumulative WS stat could punish players who had the bad luck of being on bad teams for a few years of their career and/or past players who played when only 8 teams made the playoffs (like in the 80's).

The best thing to do with advanced stats is to take all them into consideration and rank appropriately. Admittedly, Kobe is a tough, tough rank, kind of like the inverse of Chris Paul (who dominates every advanced stat category known but has never been past the 2nd round). Real talk, you can put Kobe at 10 or 30 and both could probably be justified. I think he's in that 2nd tier with KG, Barkley, Dirk, Dr. J, etc. I don't see how that's an insult?


I dont see it as an insult I just wouldnt put no ring losers like Malone or CP3 that high. When you talking the best of the best Kobe as the bottom of the top 10 of modern players or top 15 all-time is fine. I dont even argue his legacy. you notice if you go back all I did was LOL at Cp3 over him and Bird and Malone's place and how this article has a list where duncan is ranked lower than he should be ...

[Spurs 4 The Win]

of course they do. Only on spurstalk do they diminish them this much ...

BTW in the playoff win shares Horry cracks the top 25 (just behind Gino and Hondo) ahead of ... Dr. J, David Robinson and KG ...
On 2nd thought I put dirk as my #2 PF ...
One more interesting note Hakeem is only 15th on the playoff list ... not saying I agree just interesting.:toast

Yeah it is like some of these idiots have taken the extreme on applying advanced stats, throwing common sense to the wind. Rings matter, period, thats how the greats are defined.

[baseline bum]

Off the top of my head, I'd put Kobe at #10 alltime, though you could make an argument up to #7. Hated leaving Moses out of the top 10, but I'd easily pick any of these guys over him.

1. Micheal Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. LeBron James
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant

[Killakobe81]

But the cumulative WS stat could punish players who had the bad luck of being on bad teams for a few years of their career and/or past players who played when only 8 teams made the playoffs (like in the 80's).

The best thing to do with advanced stats is to take all them into consideration and rank appropriately. Admittedly, Kobe is a tough, tough rank, kind of like the inverse of Chris Paul (who dominates every advanced stat category known but has never been past the 2nd round). Real talk, you can put Kobe at 10 or 30 and both could probably be justified. I think he's in that 2nd tier with KG, Barkley, Dirk, Dr. J, etc. I don't see how that's an insult?

They also love David Robinson. But at least he has teh crappy team-mates defense. Paul plays with a prime Blake Griffin a #1 overall pick top 5 in PER ... no excuses for Paul to choke in the playoffs, I am sorry. That is part of why I dont trust the regular season metrics because they over inflate Malone, CP3, David and even Barkley. Winning still matters. If not why not give Minny Kevin Love more credit?

[Killakobe81]

Off the top of my head, I'd put Kobe at #10 alltime, though you could make an argument up to #7.

1. Micheal Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. LeBron James
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant

That's a fair and good list and almost in-line with career playoff wins shares though by that metric, Hakeem and Bird are slightly overrated.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Off the top of my head, I'd put Kobe at #10 alltime, though you could make an argument up to #7. Hated leaving Moses out of the top 10, but I'd easily pick any of these guys over him.

1. Micheal Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Tim Duncan
6. LeBron James
7. Larry Bird
8. Hakeem Olajuwon
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Kobe Bryant

This is a good list, except I would put Lebron at 10, and switch Duncan with Wilt

[ElNono]

Nobody would rank Pippen top 10, probably not even top 15... you have to go for the whole 'killer mentality, eye test' bullshit to crowbar Kirbs in the top 10, tbh

[Killakobe81]

Yeah it is like some of these idiots have taken the extreme on applying advanced stats, throwing common sense to the wind. Rings matter, period, thats how the greats are defined.

I will never co-sign an argument that doesnt account for rings. IF they did not matter LeBron has a legit case over Jordan but they DO matter ...and subsequently duncan has a case over James. If not Lebron is definitely over Timmy.

[Killakobe81]

Nobody would rank Pippen top 10, probably not even top 15... you have to go for the whole 'killer mentality, eye test' bullshit to crowbar Kirbs in the top 10, tbh

Not according to playoff win shares, EL. It's actually a pretty good list.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

I will never co-sign an argument that doesnt account for rings. IF they did not matter LeBron has a legit case over Jordan but they DO matter ...and subsequently duncan has a case over James. If not Lebron is definitely over Timmy.

Exactly, hit the nail on the head.

[whitemamba]

o yeah, who the fuck is kevin pelton? is he related to cN?

[Killakobe81]

Isnt the KL as a bordeline MVp argument the same arguments you can make for Pippen as a top 15 player? Not saying I agree but just sayin' ...

[baseline bum]

That's a fair and good list and almost in-line with career playoff wins shares though by that metric, Hakeem and Bird are slightly overrated.

I give Olajuwon the benefit of the doubt for winning probably the most difficult title in league history in 1994-95, considering he had to go through Stockton & Malone, then KJ & Barkley, then DRob, then Shaq & Penny. I don't know if we'll ever see that kind of playoff run again, and Olajuwon just dominated it. And then winning the title in 94 with a supporting cast consisting mostly of role playing three point shooters, like the Van Gundy Magic except with a real center.

Bird gets the benefit because his prime was so amazing. Too bad his back was constantly injured so he couldn't have the longevity of guys like Kareem, Duncan, Karl Malone, etc though. I can't hold it too much against him that he just didn't give a shit what he was doing to his body the way he played.

[Killakobe81]

o yeah, who the fuck is kevin pelton? is he related to cN?

Cn doesnt even have Kobe in his top 100 all-time ...

[Killakobe81]

I give Olajuwon the benefit of the doubt for winning probably the most difficult title in league history in 1994-95, considering he had to go through Stockton & Malone, then KJ & Barkley, then DRob, then Shaq & Penny. I don't know if we'll ever see that kind of playoff run again, and Olajuwon just dominated it. And then winning the title in 94 with a supporting cast consisting mostly of role playing three point shooters, like the Van Gundy Magic except with a real center.

Bird gets the benefit because his prime was so amazing. Too bad his back was constantly injured so he couldn't have the longevity of guys like Kareem, Duncan, Karl Malone, etc though. I can't hold it too much against him that he just didn't give a shit what he was doing to his body the way he played.

No doubt a part of me wanted to place Hakeem over Shaq because he played a more beautiful game of hoops ... but in the end despite the ugly bully ball Shaq was so dominant.
I know we troll here but if we talking real Lakers had the #7 and #8 winshare leaders in their primes along with #25 Horry against Timmy who had #23 Gino and past his prime #27 David Robinson ... no way was he winning those series.

[midnightpulp]

They also love David Robinson. But at least he has teh crappy team-mates defense. Paul plays with a prime Blake Griffin a #1 overall pick top 5 in PER ... no excuses for Paul to choke in the playoffs, I am sorry. That is part of why I dont trust the regular season metrics because they over inflate Malone, CP3, David and even Barkley. Winning still matters. If not why not give Minny Kevin Love more credit?

I usually only refer to playoff metrics in these evaluations. Reg. season accomplishments should only be about 20% of the equation (there's exceptions, like in the event a great player simply can't get off a bad team or something).

Chris Paul also has dominant playoff metrics. And despite his chokejobs, his clutch stats remain dominant. He is an all-time great player, who had greatest PG of all-time potential, but he just always seems to do the wrong thing at the right time. CN diagnosed the problem. Paul will play perfect basketball for 3.75 quarters (which will inflate his metrics) and then go into dribble-dribble-dribble hero mode for the last few minutes of the 4th in a close game. He'll hit some big shots, but his team loses its rhythm and the Clippers struggle to close out games.

[Killakobe81]

I usually only refer to playoff metrics in these evaluations. Reg. season accomplishments should only be about 20% of the equation (there's exceptions, like in the event a great player simply can't get off a bad team or something).

Chris Paul also has dominant playoff metrics. And despite his chokejobs, his clutch stats remain dominant. He is an all-time great player, who had greatest PG of all-time potential, but he just always seems to do the wrong thing at the right time. CN diagnosed the problem. Paul will play perfect basketball for 3.75 quarters (which will inflate his metrics) and then go into dribble-dribble-dribble hero mode for the last few minutes of the 4th in a close game. He'll hit some big shots, but his team loses its rhythm and the Clippers struggle to close out games.

But I can take it a step further. Look at Paul in games 1-3 vs. 4-6 and the Game 7's ...
He dominates almost every series early on but because he expends so much energy, doubling, trapping, whining and flopping by series end he flames out.
The Nola series vs Spurs and the one vs Lakers in 2011 (2009?) are prime examples ...

He is a great player but his career playoff win shares are horrible. Mo cheeks and Tony Parker have better numbers and he is by far the better player.

His game score in game 1: 37
Games 5 and 6: 19.8 and 11

That is how most of his series go tbh ...

[TrainOfThought5]

I give Olajuwon the benefit of the doubt for winning probably the most difficult title in league history in 1994-95, considering he had to go through Stockton & Malone, then KJ & Barkley, then DRob, then Shaq & Penny. I don't know if we'll ever see that kind of playoff run again, and Olajuwon just dominated it. And then winning the title in 94 with a supporting cast consisting mostly of role playing three point shooters, like the Van Gundy Magic except with a real center.

Bird gets the benefit because his prime was so amazing. Too bad his back was constantly injured so he couldn't have the longevity of guys like Kareem, Duncan, Karl Malone, etc though. I can't hold it too much against him that he just didn't give a shit what he was doing to his body the way he played.

True. My main issue is Lebron placement on these top 10 lists. How are they placing Lebron above Shaq? And right under Duncan??

There is no credit for losing in the finals.

[baseline bum]

True. My main issue is Lebron placement on these top 10 lists. How are they placing Lebron above Shaq? And right under Duncan??

There is no credit for losing in the finals.

Shaq lost twice in the Finals with stacked teams and was more a role player in his title year in Miami. I can't hold 2007 against James, Jordan wouldn't have won two games from that Spurs team with the crap LeBron had around him that series. The only playoff performance I can hold against James is 2011 when the Mavs just bullied the shit out of him.

[wekko368]

True. My main issue is Lebron placement on these top 10 lists. How are they placing Lebron above Shaq? And right under Duncan??

There is no credit for losing in the finals.

He has 4 MVPs.

[ElNono]

Not according to playoff win shares, EL. It's actually a pretty good list.

Chauncey Billups ranks #18 in NBA all time playoffs win shares... there's no way in hell Chauncey Billups is top 20 all time. No way.

That's why sticking to a single stat, advanced or not, never makes sense.

[baseline bum]

He has 4 MVPs.

And LeBron was the best player in the league every year from 2007-08 to 2013-14.

[SupremeGuy]

I hate Kobe but he is top 10, lets be honest hereIf that was true lolaker fans wouldn't be so insecure about it.

[ElNono]

I can't remember the last "great" that never relinquished control, not even at the very end, dragging an entire franchise down with him. That was his decision, how you don't penalize him for it? Even when MJ or Hakeem were in their last legs, they went to other teams to milk the brand name for a few more years.

[midnightpulp]

But I can take it a step further. Look at Paul in games 1-3 vs. 4-6 and the Game 7's ...
He dominates almost every series early on but because he expends so much energy, doubling, trapping, whining and flopping by series end he flames out.
The Nola series vs Spurs and the one vs Lakers in 2011 (2009?) are prime examples ...

He is a great player but his career playoff win shares are horrible. Mo cheeks and Tony Parker have better numbers and he is by far the better player.

His game score in game 1: 37
Games 5 and 6: 19.8 and 11

That is how most of his series go tbh ...

I don't have Paul in the top 20 for those reasons. All time great, but in like the 3rd or 4th tier with the George Gervins and such.

Still don't like the total win shares stat. I'd still take Paul over Cheeks and Parker in a heartbeat. His flaws could be minimized under better coaching. Byron, Monty Williams, Vinny Del Negro and Doc Rivers aren't exactly the cream of the crop.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Shaq lost twice in the Finals with stacked teams and was more a role player in his title year in Miami. I can't hold 2007 against James, Jordan wouldn't have won two games from that Spurs team with the crap LeBron had around him that series. The only playoff performance I can hold against James is 2011 when the Mavs just bullied the shit out of him.

He was dogshit in 2007 and 2011.

[baseline bum]

He was dogshit in 2007 and 2011.

He was the only guy the Spurs had to guard in 2007. It's like bitching at Duncan for the Spurs getting wrecked in the 01 WCF when they were starting Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, and Danny Ferry.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

He was the only guy the Spurs had to guard in 2007. It's like bitching at Duncan for the Spurs getting wrecked in the 01 WCF when they were starting Terry Porter, Antonio Daniels, and Danny Ferry.

In 03 Duncan was a one man show and managed just fine. Lebron way underperformed in that series, he looked scared, and was a shadow of himself compared to what he was against Detroit one series earlier. So please tell me how Detroit was unable to lock down one guy with no support but we were? Its because Lebron played like dogshit

[Kawhitstorm]

I stopped reading at Karl Malone:lol

[Raven]

as I said before, by the time he retires, he'll be considered barely a top 20 player and in 5 years time, maybe not even a top 30. There is just too much flaws in his game and in his career to be seriously considered.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

as I said before, by the time he retires, he'll be considered barely a top 20 player and in 5 years time, maybe not even a top 30. There is just too much flaws in his game and in his career to be seriously considered.

wtf are you smoking

[wekko368]

In 03 Duncan was a one man show and managed just fine. Lebron way underperformed in that series, he looked scared, and was a shadow of himself compared to what he was against Detroit one series earlier. So please tell me how Detroit was unable to lock down one guy with no support but we were? Its because Lebron played like dogshit

You can't really compare a SF with a C (or oversized PF). A SF can carry an offense, but not a defense. Conversely, a 7 footer can carry both. To illustrate this, only 3 guys have won a title with a team full of role players: Olajuwon, Duncan, and Dirk.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

You can't really compare a SF with a C (or oversized PF). A SF can carry an offense, but not a defense. Conversely, a 7 footer can carry both. To illustrate this, only 3 guys have won a title with a team full of role players: Olajuwon, Duncan, and Dirk.

Okay but does that explain why Lebron had an MVP caliber performance in the ECF against an elite defensive team but then shriveled into a pussy when he played the Spurs in the finals...?

[DPG21920]

Why the fuck would rings not matter? :lol

Where did I say rings don't matter?

[wekko368]

Okay but does that explain why Lebron had an MVP caliber performance in the ECF against an elite defensive team but then shriveled into a pussy when he played the Spurs in the finals...?

Were the 2007 Pistons really an elite defensive team? Ben Wallace had left for the Bulls, and the Pistons had replaced him with a 33 year old Chris Webber who would retire the following season.

If anything, their stats could've been beefed up by playing in an extremely weak eastern conference.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Were the 2007 Pistons really an elite defensive team? Ben Wallace had left for the Bulls, and the Pistons had replaced him with a 33 year old Chris Webber who would retire the following season.

If anything, their stats could've been beefed up by playing in an extremely weak eastern conference.

Detroit was the #6 defensive team in the league that season and the Spurs were #3 and they gave up 2.5 more points than us per 100 possessions. So yeah, they were pretty elite.

[wekko368]

According to DRtg, Spurs were #2 at 99.9, Cavs were #4 at 101.3, and Detroit was #7 with 104.2.

Maybe that helps answer your question as to why the Spurs beat the Cavs and the Cavs beat the Pistons.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

According to DRtg, Spurs were #2 at 99.9, Cavs were #4 at 101.3, and Detroit was #7 with 104.2.

Maybe that helps answer your question as to why the Spurs beat the Cavs and the Cavs beat the Pistons.

Okay that wasnt what I was wondering, I used per 100, not Drating. But regardless, why was Lebron all world in the ECF and then dogshit in the Finals, its because he choked.

[wekko368]

Okay that wasnt what I was wondering, I used per 100, not Drating. But regardless, why was Lebron all world in the ECF and then dogshit in the Finals, its because he choked.

Drating is points allowed per 100 possessions.

Look how the Spurs and Pistons were constructed. Who was anchoring their interior defense? The Spurs had Duncan. The Pistons had.....Chris Webber? Antonio McDyess? Rasheed Wallace? Were any of them considered good defenders?

Lebron beat the Pistons b/c he could bully his way to the basket, and no one could stop him in the paint. He couldn't do that against the Spurs.

Can you really say Lebron choked when nobody expected the Cavs to win?

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Drating is points allowed per 100 possessions.

Look how the Spurs and Pistons were constructed. Who was anchoring their interior defense? The Spurs had Duncan. The Pistons had.....Chris Webber? Antonio McDyess? Rasheed Wallace? Were any of them considered good defenders?

Lebron beat the Pistons b/c he could bully his way to the basket, and no one could stop him in the paint. He couldn't do that against the Spurs.

Can you really say Lebron choked when nobody expected the Cavs to win?

Game 1: 4-16 14 points 6TO
Game 2: 9-21 25 points 6TO
Game 3: 9-23 25 points 5TO
Game 4: 10-30 24 points 6TO

Those numbers are fucking abhorrent

[Killakobe81]

as I said before, by the time he retires, he'll be considered barely a top 20 player and in 5 years time, maybe not even a top 30. There is just too much flaws in his game and in his career to be seriously considered.

Sure he has flaws but ...:rollin

Raven that is such a apropos handle tbh ...

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Sure he has flaws but ...:rollin

Raven that is such a apropos handle tbh ...

Yeah that was one of the dumbest posts i have ever read lol

[wekko368]

Yep, he ran into a defense that could neutralize his greatest strength, and he had no one on his team who could step up.

Out of curiosity, how would you describe the following stats:

Game 1: 10-22, 30 pts, 4 TO.
Game 2: 10-29, 29 pts, 1 TO.
Game 3: 9-19, 26 pts, 2 TO.
Game 4: 6-24, 23 pts, 4 TO.

[Clipper Nation]

More butthurt Spur fans.

Your life story:

http://i.imgur.com/fB9ihZr.jpg

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Yep, he ran into a defense that could neutralize his greatest strength, and he had no one on his team who could step up.

Out of curiosity, how would you describe the following stats:

Game 1: 10-22, 30 pts, 4 TO.
Game 2: 10-29, 29 pts, 1 TO.
Game 3: 9-19, 26 pts, 2 TO.
Game 4: 6-24, 23 pts, 4 TO.

Game 1, good performance
Game 2, shit
Game 3, great
Game 4, shit

[DPG21920]

Not much dumber than talking rings like they are so heavily weighted, then throwing out qualifiers to make your point like "alpha rings" :lol.

I agree there is some commons sense needed and rings are important, but the "count them rings" arguments are outdated and a huge reason why Kobe fans are struggling to see things for what they are (like most evolving sports writers see things now with the proliferation of stats in analysis).

Once you get to the point where you've reached (and won) multiple finals, its stops being important. Obviously, having only 2 FMVP out of 7 trips (5 total wins) shows you a certain thing. It's not to knock Kobe, but there are so many variables in the playoffs and yes, regular season is a HUGE part of ranking players.

People always love to throw out "clutch" because of a big playoff game or series, but the truth is that regular seasons matter and are more statistically relevant. Playoffs grab the glory (and rightfully so because the objective for the team is to win a title), but weighting playoffs so much heavier and doing ring smack? It really is the lowest form of debating sports now.

You have to look beyond the stereotypes (Kobe clutch shooting, etc..). You have to look beyond rings (is a guy really considered better because he played in the biggest advantaged market in the league vs CLE + supporting casts like Shaq, Pau, etc..).

[Killakobe81]

Yep, he ran into a defense that could neutralize his greatest strength, and he had no one on his team who could step up.

Out of curiosity, how would you describe the following stats:

Game 1: 10-22, 30 pts, 4 TO.
Game 2: 10-29, 29 pts, 1 TO.
Game 3: 9-19, 26 pts, 2 TO.
Game 4: 6-24, 23 pts, 4 TO.

Game 4? that looks like Kobe's Game 7 ...

[wekko368]

Game 1, good performance
Game 2, shit
Game 3, great
Game 4, shit

So a 10-22, 30 pts, 4 TO game is a good performance. But a 9-21, 25, 6 TO game is fucking abhorrent?

[Spurs 4 The Win]

So a 10-22, 30 pts, 4 TO game is a good performance. But a 9-21, 25, 6 TO game is fucking abhorrent?

Yeah, having more combined shots and turnovers than points generally means it was a terrible game

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Not much dumber than talking rings like they are so heavily weighted, then throwing out qualifiers to make your point like "alpha rings" :lol.

I agree there is some commons sense needed and rings are important, but the "count them rings" arguments are outdated and a huge reason why Kobe fans are struggling to see things for what they are (like most evolving sports writers see things now with the proliferation of stats in analysis).

Once you get to the point where you've reached (and won) multiple finals, its stops being important. Obviously, having only 2 FMVP out of 7 trips (5 total wins) shows you a certain thing. It's not to knock Kobe, but there are so many variables in the playoffs and yes, regular season is a HUGE part of ranking players.

People always love to throw out "clutch" because of a big playoff game or series, but the truth is that regular seasons matter and are more statistically relevant. Playoffs grab the glory (and rightfully so because the objective for the team is to win a title), but weighting playoffs so much heavier and doing ring smack? It really is the lowest form of debating sports now.

You have to look beyond the stereotypes (Kobe clutch shooting, etc..). You have to look beyond rings (is a guy really considered better because he played in the biggest advantaged market in the league vs CLE + supporting casts like Shaq, Pau, etc..).

LeBron has 2 FMVP in 6 trips...

[Killakobe81]

Not much dumber than talking rings like they are so heavily weighted, then throwing out qualifiers to make your point like "alpha rings" :lol.

I agree there is some commons sense needed and rings are important, but the "count them rings" arguments are outdated and a huge reason why Kobe fans are struggling to see things for what they are (like most evolving sports writers see things now with the proliferation of stats in analysis).

Once you get to the point where you've reached (and won) multiple finals, its stops being important. Obviously, having only 2 FMVP out of 7 trips (5 total wins) shows you a certain thing. It's not to knock Kobe, but there are so many variables in the playoffs and yes, regular season is a HUGE part of ranking players.

People always love to throw out "clutch" because of a big playoff game or series, but the truth is that regular seasons matter and are more statistically relevant. Playoffs grab the glory (and rightfully so because the objective for the team is to win a title), but weighting playoffs so much heavier and doing ring smack? It really is the lowest form of debating sports now.

You have to look beyond the stereotypes (Kobe clutch shooting, etc..). You have to look beyond rings (is a guy really considered better because he played in the biggest advantaged market in the league vs CLE + supporting casts like Shaq, Pau, etc..).

Who is arguing for count them rings alone? At least anyone that is actually worth debating? For me it's a key factor. Im with Mid Regular season is only worth 20%. Rings need to be more than that. Kevin Love put up some great numbers in the regular seasons but before Lebron he never sniffed a playoff? :lol Is that ll his fault? No. But shit, if you are truly great you should lead a team as it's best player to at least one playoff win.

Deeps you can say that once you ring it shouldnt matter but it does. Lebron and Jordan are both great players. great playoffs. Great regular seasons so what is the deciding factor? Eye test? Their adjusted for PAce win/share per 36 minutes* their expected win total-RPM? Or rings? The best of the best are judged by rings. MIT wont change that. DO i think Lebron plays a better version of ball than Kobe or Lebron? absolutely. Would the sport be better off if he was the GOAT and not Jordan? Probably. But Jordan is the GOAt and RINGS are an ABSOLUTELY big part of that.

Without 5 rings no way do I place Duncan over Shaq, I am sorry. I dont give a shit if it's antiquated, vanilla so 80's whatever. Winning will always matter.

[wekko368]

Game 4? that looks like Kobe's Game 7 ...

Yep, those are Kobe's stats from the 4 Laker victories in the 2010 finals.

Basically, if Spurs4theWin is going to argue that Lebron choked in 2007, then he has to acknowledge that Kobe choked in 2010. The difference is, the Lakers had the best frontcourt in the league and were able to win in spite of Kobe's poor performances. Meanwhile, the Cavs had nobody.

[wekko368]

Yeah, having more combined shots and turnovers than points generally means it was a terrible game

Nope. Those stat lines are on par with each other. By referring to Lebron's as "fucking abhorrent" and Kobe's as a "good performance", you're showing your double standards.

[Killakobe81]

Yep, those are Kobe's stats from the 4 Laker victories in the 2010 finals.

Basically, if Spurs4theWin is going to argue that Lebron choked in 2007, then he has to acknowledge that Kobe choked in 2010. The difference is, the Lakers had the best frontcourt in the league and were able to win in spite of Kobe's poor performances. Meanwhile, the Cavs had nobody.

Kobe did choke in Game 7. who here Laker fan or Kobe stan can argue that? Kobe admitted himself after that game. In Fact MWP was the most clutch in that game 7 even more so than Pau or Kobe.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Nope. Those stat lines are on par with each other. By referring to Lebron's as "fucking abhorrent" and Kobe's as a "good performance", you're showing your double standards.

Lol, you are acting like I am a Kobe fan when I most certainly am not. In fact I have Kobe at 9 and Lebron at 10. Its not like I think either is God reincarnated. Lebron has a much higher ceiling but if he retired tomorrow, he would be behind Kobe.

[DPG21920]

LeBron has 2 FMVP in 6 trips...

That is exactly my point.

[wekko368]

Lol, you are acting like I am a Kobe fan when I most certainly am not. In fact I have Kobe at 9 and Lebron at 10. Its not like I think either is God reincarnated. Lebron has a much higher ceiling but if he retired tomorrow, he would be behind Kobe.

Incorrect. Lebron is already ahead of Kobe. 4 MVP's isn't something you can trivialize.

[DPG21920]

Who is arguing for count them rings alone? At least anyone that is actually worth debating? For me it's a key factor. Im with Mid Regular season is only worth 20%. Rings need to be more than that. Kevin Love put up some great numbers in the regular seasons but before Lebron he never sniffed a playoff? :lol Is that ll his fault? No. But shit, if you are truly great you should lead a team as it's best player to at least one playoff win.

Deeps you can say that once you ring it shouldnt matter but it does. Lebron and Jordan are both great players. great playoffs. Great regular seasons so what is the deciding factor? Eye test? Their adjusted for PAce win/share per 36 minutes* their expected win total-RPM? Or rings? The best of the best are judged by rings. MIT wont change that. DO i think Lebron plays a better version of ball than Kobe or Lebron? absolutely. Would the sport be better off if he was the GOAT and not Jordan? Probably. But Jordan is the GOAt and RINGS are an ABSOLUTELY big part of that.

Without 5 rings no way do I place Duncan over Shaq, I am sorry. I dont give a shit if it's antiquated, vanilla so 80's whatever. Winning will always matter.

I never said rings don't matter. I said all things being equal, sure, give the tie-breaker. But when you are talking about people that have all won multiple rings, have finals mvps & been to numerous finals, yeah, it becomes less of a factor. Especially when certain players (Duncan/Lebron) absoultely destroy Kobe in most every other single advanced metric.

If you are comparing Kobe to Nash? Sure, absolutely, rings matter. If you care comparing him to Lebron? It holds way less water to me since they have both been there and done that so many times and have the same amount of finals MVPS to show for it.

But one has better all around metrics in a bigger sample size (regular season) not to mention more hardware where it matters most (League MVP's).

I don't see how this is really not common sense at this point other than (like I've said) just "eye-ball testing" or generic arguments. It doesn't mean Kobe sucks. He's been great.

[DPG21920]

It's funny, but to me it boils down to this: If you gave other players (like Lebron) the same setup as Kobe, would they be even more highly regarded? I think that is the easiest yes in mankind.

There is a massive difference in playing for La than CLE. LA has the most built in advantages it's not even funny. You better win when people flock to play for your because of where you are located and the market. You better win when you have a front office that pairs you with Shaq for a huge stretch of your career. That pairs you with Odom/Pau/Howard/etc...

If you put Kobe in Lebron's situation no way in hell does he have as much going on for him as Lebron does. Hell, he doesn't have anything but extra titles to his name with the advantages. It's not just because of his attitude either, but his skillset and style of play.

If Lebron was in Kobe's shoes, I don't think there is any argument that he has more to his name than Kobe does. If that's the case and you can reasonably agree with that take, then I don't see how you can go to the rings argument for Kobe over Lebron. There are a ton of factors.

Kevin Love is absolutely a regular season star, but yes, he gets penalized because he's never carried anyone like Lebron. He certainly doesn't defend like Lebron which is a huge part of the equation (not to mention going on legit terrors like being and MVP 4x).

[wekko368]

Without 5 rings no way do I place Duncan over Shaq, I am sorry. I dont give a shit if it's antiquated, vanilla so 80's whatever. Winning will always matter.

If Duncan and Shaq each had 4 titles, Duncan would still be ahead of Shaq. He has more MVPs, and his 2003 title run (due to his lack of star teammates) was more impressive than any of Shaq's titles.

[HarlemHeat37]

No, absolutely not, neither do I have Robert Horry as the 2nd GOAT. But in the case of Lebron, he has failed far too many times to get it done as Alpha, he has gotten embarrassed in 3 Finals appearances and looked good in one defeat. Kobe was 5-2 in the Finals and didnt benefit from playing in the East. You have to use common sense when applying the ring count. Ring count obviously is very important, its not the end all though. But you cant put a 2 ring LeBron ahead of a 5 ring Kobe, thats fucking stupid.

Why are you putting Russell and Horry in the same category?

[BD24]

Still got love for you tho, Killa. Best laker poster on ST
Agree with this 100%

[Spurs 4 The Win]

Why are you putting Russell and Horry in the same category?

Cuz they both got a ton of rings that would overrate them if you went by just a ring count. Russell got to play in an era with weaker competition and fewer teams and Horry was arole player for all of his.

[Arcadian]

More butthurt Spur fans.

Please, the only one butthurt here is you.

[DAF86]

GTFO with Durant and Curry lmfao

Did you read what I wrote or did you just skim through it? I didn't say Durant and Curry were ahead of Kobe, although if Curry wins it all this year, he would already have a case.

[Galileo]

Jerry West was better than Kobe.

[DAF86]

No, absolutely not, neither do I have Robert Horry as the 2nd GOAT. But in the case of Lebron, he has failed far too many times to get it done as Alpha, he has gotten embarrassed in 3 Finals appearances and looked good in one defeat. Kobe was 5-2 in the Finals and didnt benefit from playing in the East. You have to use common sense when applying the ring count. Ring count obviously is very important, its not the end all though. But you cant put a 2 ring LeBron ahead of a 5 ring Kobe, thats fucking stupid.

Please follow your advice and stop repeating "Kobe has 5 rings" like he had won those 5 rings as the alpha of his team.

[Raven]

Who is arguing for count them rings alone? At least anyone that is actually worth debating? For me it's a key factor. Im with Mid Regular season is only worth 20%. Rings need to be more than that. Kevin Love put up some great numbers in the regular seasons but before Lebron he never sniffed a playoff? :lol Is that ll his fault? No. But shit, if you are truly great you should lead a team as it's best player to at least one playoff win.

Deeps you can say that once you ring it shouldnt matter but it does. Lebron and Jordan are both great players. great playoffs. Great regular seasons so what is the deciding factor? Eye test? Their adjusted for PAce win/share per 36 minutes* their expected win total-RPM? Or rings? The best of the best are judged by rings. MIT wont change that. DO i think Lebron plays a better version of ball than Kobe or Lebron? absolutely. Would the sport be better off if he was the GOAT and not Jordan? Probably. But Jordan is the GOAt and RINGS are an ABSOLUTELY big part of that.

Without 5 rings no way do I place Duncan over Shaq, I am sorry. I dont give a shit if it's antiquated, vanilla so 80's whatever. Winning will always matter.

Kirby never sniffed the play offs without a top 3 center. Just saying...

[TrainOfThought5]

People honestly believe that Kobe is better all-time than Lebron??? How?? Lebron is 2x the player that Kobe is.

[ambchang]

Especially sweet when Amb co-signs but then gives is own list. is this metric good or not? If not, why did OP even bother posting? Karl Malone top 5 ...:lol
:rollin

Metrics better than eye test :downspin:

I said I like those metrics, when?

[DMC]

Some other names on that list are laughable to be ranked that high. In my opinion that renders the list invalid for all time great talks. David is ranked above Tim.

[Killakobe81]

I said I like those metrics, when?

You did not just dog piled on Kobe so I threw you in as I was laughing at that list ... guilt by association, brother.

[Killakobe81]

It's funny, but to me it boils down to this: If you gave other players (like Lebron) the same setup as Kobe, would they be even more highly regarded? I think that is the easiest yes in mankind.

There is a massive difference in playing for La than CLE. LA has the most built in advantages it's not even funny. You better win when people flock to play for your because of where you are located and the market. You better win when you have a front office that pairs you with Shaq for a huge stretch of your career. That pairs you with Odom/Pau/Howard/etc...

If you put Kobe in Lebron's situation no way in hell does he have as much going on for him as Lebron does. Hell, he doesn't have anything but extra titles to his name with the advantages. It's not just because of his attitude either, but his skillset and style of play.

If Lebron was in Kobe's shoes, I don't think there is any argument that he has more to his name than Kobe does. If that's the case and you can reasonably agree with that take, then I don't see how you can go to the rings argument for Kobe over Lebron. There are a ton of factors.

Kevin Love is absolutely a regular season star, but yes, he gets penalized because he's never carried anyone like Lebron. He certainly doesn't defend like Lebron which is a huge part of the equation (not to mention going on legit terrors like being and MVP 4x).

OK,let me get this straight Kobe is playing with the FO led by a guy regularly called Fredo. The CBA and rules changes have tilted to favor him.In fact he was the power player in the Union that agreed to the new CBA. He has played for Riles and with Bosh and Wade. Now gets to run a front office basically and call his own shots ...but you want to point to the Lakers advantages? The same ones that was wiped away 5 years ago? I defend Mitch but Jerry west has been gone for the Lakers over 10 years now. So just stop with the LeBron excuse making. He doesn't need any. he is the GOAT SF ...getting to run rough shod over a shitty Eastern conference.
For the record I agree prime Lebron is better. Career wise right now (not just by rings) I can see a debate between the two based on accomplishments and longevity.
James is on pace to smash every career record Kobe has and do it more efficiently. So it's not crazy to say Lebron is greater than Kobe in fact it'sprobably inevitable for him to surpass Kobe if he hasn't already.
But stop acting like James has been some victim of circumstances he has had plenty of things in his favor as well.

[Killakobe81]

Question for real hoops heads and or stat heads (please no trolling) Besides career playoff win shares ...what is a better stat for giving credit to guys like Horry, Manu etc? Hear me out I was shocked when I saw that Horry was like 25th in career playoff win shares. But outside of eye test how do we credit Horry for the contributions he made to the Lakers, spurs and Rockets? I know without horry we out at least one title. A strong case can be made Without him the spurs are light two. He was the third best player to Hakeem/thorpe and Hakeem/Drexler on the Clutch city Rox.

Not only that but that stat (again not a huge stat head but do find them useful) It does seem to favor guys that:
1. Win a lot of playoff games
2. Playoff numbers are better than their regular season numbers

Stockton for example is nowhere near the top 15 in the regular season numbers where Malone is top 5, but when you look at the same stat for the playoffs ...Malone drops to 14th and Stockton is 16th just behind Hakeem.

Bird jumps up to 11th when he was behind Cp3 in the regular season list,. Yes Pippen is overrated a bit but you are talking about one of the premier defenders of that era and the 2nd leading scorer on 6 title teams. He was essentially the MVPau of those teams ...

So how else do you factor the contributions in a metrics world what Fisher, Horry, Manu etc really meant to those playoff and title teams?

[Koolaid_Man]

Question for real hoops heads and or stat heads (please no trolling) Besides career playoff win shares ...what is a better stat for giving credit to guys like Horry, Manu etc? Hear me out I was shocked when I saw that Horry was like 25th in career playoff win shares. But outside of eye test how do we credit Horry for the contributions he made to the Lakers, spurs and Rockets? I know without horry we out at least one title. A strong case can be made Without him the spurs are light two. He was the third best player to Hakeem/thorpe and Hakeem/Drexler on the Clutch city Rox.

Not only that but that stat (again not a huge stat head but do find them useful) It does seem to favor guys that:
1. Win a lot of playoff games
2. Playoff numbers are better than their regular season numbers

Stockton for example is nowhere near the top 15 in the regular season numbers where Malone is top 5, but when you look at the same stat for the playoffs ...Malone drops to 14th and Stockton is 16th just behind Hakeem.

Bird jumps up to 11th when he was behind Cp3 in the regular season list,. Yes Pippen is overrated a bit but you are talking about one of the premier defenders of that era and the 2nd leading scorer on 6 title teams. He was essentially the MVPau of those teams ...

So how else do you factor the contributions in a metrics world what Fisher, Horry, Manu etc really meant to those playoff and title teams?

Look I get you you fellas want stimulating duscyssion....I get it..but life is not always about being a proper nerd....This whole post is part of the problem..see you fellas keep looking to measure the immeasurable....its not about stats per se....as with these kinds of guys its about intangibles, intensity, fearlessness, and HEART which cannot be measured...leave the over blown stat mongering for the Star players...this is an example of what I'm referring to a fearlessness and heart that cannot be measured.


https://youtube/gyJ_o7XMP98

[Killakobe81]

Look I get you you fellas want stimulating duscyssion....I get it..but life is not always about being a proper nerd....This whole post is part of the problem..see you fellas keep looking to measure the immeasurable....its not about stats per se....as with these kinds of guys its about intangibles, intensity, fearlessness, and HEART which cannot be measured...leave the over blown stat mongering for the Star players...this is an example of what I'm referring to a fearlessness and heart that cannot be measured.


https://youtube/gyJ_o7XMP98

I get what you saying bruh and I trust my eyes over numbers ...but we still ahve to evolve with the game. Metrics are more prevalent I dont trust them often but palyoff career winshares is better than most to me for a couple reasons...first it does seem to get closer to my eye test. And it rewards a longevity of success but not so much so that Kareem is #1 in everything or Karl Malone. Kobe is given a fair spot at #8 and Magic in the top 5 with Jordan at #1duncan maybe a little high but a case can be made he is the most consistent winner since Mj so tough to argue with him near the top of that list.

As yfor your video Kobe was a beast ...I miss those days.

[ambchang]

You did not just dog piled on Kobe so I threw you in as I was laughing at that list ... guilt by association, brother.

Your problem then. And yes. I listed those above or with Kobe. Let's argue on those.

[FkLA]

OK,let me get this straight Kobe is playing with the FO led by a guy regularly called Fredo. The CBA and rules changes have tilted to favor him.In fact he was the power player in the Union that agreed to the new CBA. He has played for Riles and with Bosh and Wade. Now gets to run a front office basically and call his own shots ...but you want to point to the Lakers advantages? The same ones that was wiped away 5 years ago? I defend Mitch but Jerry west has been gone for the Lakers over 10 years now. So just stop with the LeBron excuse making. He doesn't need any. he is the GOAT SF ...getting to run rough shod over a shitty Eastern conference.
For the record I agree prime Lebron is better. Career wise right now (not just by rings) I can see a debate between the two based on accomplishments and longevity.
James is on pace to smash every career record Kobe has and do it more efficiently. So it's not crazy to say Lebron is greater than Kobe in fact it'sprobably inevitable for him to surpass Kobe if he hasn't already.
But stop acting like James has been some victim of circumstances he has had plenty of things in his favor as well.

:lol It's ridiculous how biased you are.

[Cry Havoc]

Question for real hoops heads and or stat heads (please no trolling) Besides career playoff win shares ...what is a better stat for giving credit to guys like Horry, Manu etc? Hear me out I was shocked when I saw that Horry was like 25th in career playoff win shares. But outside of eye test how do we credit Horry for the contributions he made to the Lakers, spurs and Rockets? I know without horry we out at least one title. A strong case can be made Without him the spurs are light two. He was the third best player to Hakeem/thorpe and Hakeem/Drexler on the Clutch city Rox.

Not only that but that stat (again not a huge stat head but do find them useful) It does seem to favor guys that:
1. Win a lot of playoff games
2. Playoff numbers are better than their regular season numbers

Stockton for example is nowhere near the top 15 in the regular season numbers where Malone is top 5, but when you look at the same stat for the playoffs ...Malone drops to 14th and Stockton is 16th just behind Hakeem.

Bird jumps up to 11th when he was behind Cp3 in the regular season list,. Yes Pippen is overrated a bit but you are talking about one of the premier defenders of that era and the 2nd leading scorer on 6 title teams. He was essentially the MVPau of those teams ...

So how else do you factor the contributions in a metrics world what Fisher, Horry, Manu etc really meant to those playoff and title teams?

If you could make a formula to accurately measure this, you'd put an end to all of the "Who's the top 10 of all-time?" talk, at least amongst statheads. I think defense is still criminally underrated in most analysis, but a lot of the NBA is waking up to the NBA's version of Sabermetrics.

It's all contextual. Rings ARE valuable (duh), but they are ancillary to the center of the discussion. For instance, Duncan's 03 campaign is by far his best case for arguing about how good he was when he "peaked", it's also the ring that you can point to the most as a guy who basically beat the rest of the NBA with a meager supporting cast.

Advanced stats have been around since forever in baseball, and they are used far more frequently than in the NBA (though that's changing). Even in baseball, unless you have someone come along like Rivera, who's truly dominant, it's a pretty wide open debate about best pitchers of all-time (and even then some will say Goose Gossage).

Stats support context, and context supports stats. The minute you try to make one of them work without the other, you fail in your assessment. Otherwise, close it up, Russell is the greatest player ever. But most of us would agree that's not the case here, and many would say he's not even top 5.

[Koolaid_Man]

No one wants to talk bout this knowledge you spittin :toast

Hakeem Olajuwon said it best....the 2 guard position is the toughest position in all of basketball...and this is coming from a 4/ 5 position player...who in my view was 10x the player Tim Duncan ever was....its not even close comparing Hakeem who was far far superior offensively and defensively to Tim...but back to your point Tim Duncan had it easy...while the whole world was gunning for Kobe...every single night....his body gave out because he simply gave more..look at the global impact on the game...people around the world in every country from Asia, China especially China :lol, the Middle East, just about every country in Europe, South America, Africa you name it they all worship Kobe....

The US business moguls from Apple CEO, Facebook, Oprah Winfrey, billionaires such as Richard Branson, Warren Buffet, etc all doing business with and mentoring Kobe...all of the Hollywood elites love Kobe....Floyd Mayweather, Manny Paqucio and atheletes from across all sports such as football, baseball etc all point to Kobe as their inspiration....99% of the All-time greats such as MJ, Kareem, Dr J, Larry Bird, Magic, even Red Auerbach's daughter all have Kobe ranked behind MJ....99% of current players including every rookie class since 2000 all have Kobe as their favorite player and the consensus #2 behind MJ....almost every Olympic atheistic from every country in the world all love Kobe..shit don't make me bump all my old threads on how all those white female Olympians from the Swim teams, to the Vollyball teams to the soccer teams all going crazy over that nigga when he steps into the building...I'm jealous as fuck of this nigga :lol

But my point is simple...Tim Duncan pales in comparison to Kobe....its not even close in the grand scheme of things...that's why I let Spur fans have their moment...deep inside they know Tim is not on Kobes level...and if they don't they're delusional...what I've just layed out is proof...Tim plays in pressure less Market...where court side seats sell for as low as 13 cents :lol no way the accomplishments are the same...every night as you mentioned teams ran 2 and 3 athletic wing defenders at Kobe at all times...some of the games most atheletic and competitive players we've ever seen...

From MJ, to Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman, Steve Nash, Tracy Mcgrady, Allen Iverson, Dwade, Lebron James, Mike Bobby, Ron Artest, Tony Allen, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie, Rueben Patterson, Grant Hill, Jason Richardson, Vince Carter, Jason Kidd, Jamal Masburn, Jimmy Jackson, Kevin Durant, Westbrook, and on and on and on and on....

What's even more astounding aside from the partial list of tough players Kobe had to defend and play against is the fact that once he got past those athletic players he had to deal with the bigs down low from the 3 to the 5 positions and boy did he ever...thats why I laugh my ass off when people like DPG, Splits, Midnight Pulp, DMC, and KillaKobe say that Duncan was a better player and had a better career..especially in light of position played, title defense :lol and Olympic team contribution...the level of ignorance they show is astounding....

But like I said let them have their moment :lmao

[ambchang]

Question for real hoops heads and or stat heads (please no trolling) Besides career playoff win shares ...what is a better stat for giving credit to guys like Horry, Manu etc? Hear me out I was shocked when I saw that Horry was like 25th in career playoff win shares. But outside of eye test how do we credit Horry for the contributions he made to the Lakers, spurs and Rockets? I know without horry we out at least one title. A strong case can be made Without him the spurs are light two. He was the third best player to Hakeem/thorpe and Hakeem/Drexler on the Clutch city Rox.

Not only that but that stat (again not a huge stat head but do find them useful) It does seem to favor guys that:
1. Win a lot of playoff games
2. Playoff numbers are better than their regular season numbers

Stockton for example is nowhere near the top 15 in the regular season numbers where Malone is top 5, but when you look at the same stat for the playoffs ...Malone drops to 14th and Stockton is 16th just behind Hakeem.

Bird jumps up to 11th when he was behind Cp3 in the regular season list,. Yes Pippen is overrated a bit but you are talking about one of the premier defenders of that era and the 2nd leading scorer on 6 title teams. He was essentially the MVPau of those teams ...

So how else do you factor the contributions in a metrics world what Fisher, Horry, Manu etc really meant to those playoff and title teams?

First it's cumulative. Those players played a lot of games.

Second those players were instrumental in those wins.

Third, their bench replacement sucked so their teams suffer more when he's off the court but gains when they are on it.

Fourth, they are usually part of the best lineup.

[Killakobe81]

First it's cumulative. Those players played a lot of games.

Second those players were instrumental in those wins.

Third, their bench replacement sucked so their teams suffer more when he's off the court but gains when they are on it.

Fourth, they are usually part of the best lineup.

Of course those guys played a bunch of playoff games but wouldn't they have played more regular season ones? So why does Stockton rise and Malone fall? didn't they play almost their entire careers together? I get Fisher and Horry getting a unfair boost based on playing with great players but again I ask how do we value all they have done? I see some merit here but like any stat it has it's drawbacks ...

[Killakobe81]

:lol It's ridiculous how biased you are.

It's biased how?
LeBron is the GOAT SF
LeBron is on pace to smash every Kobe record
Prime LeBron is better ...
wow ...those are pretty biased claims.

[FkLA]

It's biased how?
LeBron is the GOAT SF
LeBron is on pace to smash every Kobe record
Prime LeBron is better ...
wow ...those are pretty biased claims.

No, you trying to act like their circumstances are even remotely comparable is what's biased. The Lakers had the history, titles, and glamor of LA before Kirby. Cleveland is a loser in sports and widely considered a dump of a city. LBJ is the only thing that makes that team/city attractive to other players.

As far as his stint in Miami, if anything it proves all he ever needed was more help. LBJ doesn't lack a 'winner' gene that Kirby has, he just lacked the cast Kirby has good most of his career. 4 finals trips and 2 titles is a pretty successful run. Now imagine he had a prime Wade right away instead of an aging one (like Kirby had with Shaq)...then after that the got a dominant frontline. You telling me LBJ wouldn't have a handful of rings with that scenario?? He'd still be stuck at 2?

[Killakobe81]

No, you trying to act like their circumstances are even remotely comparable is what's biased. The Lakers had the history, titles, and glamor of LA before Kirby. Cleveland is a loser in sports and widely considered a dump of a city. LBJ is the only thing that makes that team/city attractive to other players.

As far as his stint in Miami, if anything it proves all he ever needed was more help. LBJ doesn't lack a 'winner' gene that Kirby has, he just lacked the cast Kirby has good most of his career. 4 finals trips and 2 titles is a pretty successful run. Now imagine he had a prime Wade right away instead of an aging one (like Kirby had with Shaq)...then after that the got a dominant frontline. You telling me LBJ wouldn't have a handful of rings with that scenario?? He'd still be stuck at 2?

who still said he lacked the winner gene? Skip Bayless? who still says that in 2015?
All I said he doesn't need excuses which I still stand by.
Saying Kobe had advantages is exclusive of making excuses for Lebron ...

[Killakobe81]

and on top of all THAT ... he is the one that chose his current environment. obviously the ownership and FO isn't as bad as what Kobe deals with now ... or why would he leave Riles and Spo?

[FkLA]

who still said he lacked the winner gene? Skip Bayless? who still says that in 2015?
All I said he doesn't need excuses which I still stand by.
Saying Kobe had advantages is exclusive of making excuses for Lebron ...

It's not an excuse if it's blatantly obvious. Are you really going to sit there and act like the city of LA is comparable to the city of Cleveland? Or the Lakers franchise to the Cavs franchise? If the answer is yes then you can't call yourself an objective observer. You're clearly a Kirby fanboy.

[FkLA]

and on top of all THAT ... he is the one that chose his current environment. obviously the ownership and FO isn't as bad as what Kobe deals with now ... or why would he leave Riles and Spo?

His current environment is fine, injuries happened last year but the roster itself is solid. I'm talking about the first half of his career. It proves environments clearly do matter.

[ambchang]

Of course those guys played a bunch of playoff games but wouldn't they have played more regular season ones? So why does Stockton rise and Malone fall? didn't they play almost their entire careers together? I get Fisher and Horry getting a unfair boost based on playing with great players but again I ask how do we value all they have done? I see some merit here but like any stat it has it's drawbacks ...

Of course they have draw backs, but most advanced stats are directionally correct. They give you a picture and by combining a few of them together gives you a great view of the best players.

Stockton really drove the Jazz offense. Less disciplined teams in the regular season allowed pedo to hurt them, but in the playoffs, with a more disciplined approach and due to match ups, Stockton became more valuable. There weren't a lot of great PGs in the 90s but s lot of great bigs, especially in the west (Hakeem, Robinson, kemp, mutumbo) and going through those in consecutive series will hurt the numbers for everyone, but especially so for a choking pedophile.