Should Simmons start ahead of Green?

[mexicanjunior]

Green has been garbage so far this year. If he is not consistently hitting the 3, he is a Bonner-esque liability. Simmons can at least dribble at a high school level without keystone copping into turnovers.

I like Simmons ability to get the rim, draw fouls and create offense. Green should be a situational defender at best in this rotation.

[Ice009]

Yes. Danny Green has completely and utterly shit the bed this season after getting paid a decent amount of money. Right now, it looks like we've overpaid for him. His offense ain't any better than Bowen's at this stage of the season and he's a worse defender than Bruce man on man, yet we're paying him over double what the Spurs paid Bowen. That's a fucking insult to Bruce.

Simmons can get to the rim and he's a better passer than Danny. My goodness, Danny is a such a shit passer.

[steeledl]

Yes.

[Nathan89]

No. Green either figures it out or we are done.

[HarlemHeat37]

Simmons would foul out in 1 quarter, tbh:lol..they should probably start Kyle, though, do something to light a fire under Green like in 2014, I suppose..

If this is the real Green, then the Spurs aren't even close to a contender, unfortunately..

[NASpurs]

Green would probably play better with the bench seeing as it's more open and less dribble dribble, iso.

[mexicanjunior]

No. Green either figures it out or we are done.

Then Manu and Tim should just retire now.

[Ice009]

Simmons would foul out in 1 quarter, tbh:lol

If this is the real Green, then the Spurs aren't even close to a contender, unfortunately..

That's the way it looks, but he also needs more court time to see if he can correct his fouling on the defensive end. He's not going to get that experience sitting on the bench. Start him against the Lakers and see what happens.

[slick'81]

I keep thinking hes gonna come around but now hes passing up 3s driving and just fcking up

[keeferob25]

Yes, just for the fact that we wouldnt have to start off the game watching him stink up the joint being useless. I'm at a point where I can't stand watching him on the court now...he's THAT garbage! And I've always been a "Danny is severely underrated" guy but him being limited is REALLY being exposed.

[HarlemHeat37]

That's the way it looks, but he also needs more court time to see if he can correct his fouling on the defensive end. He's not going to get that experience sitting on the bench. Start him against the Lakers and see what happens.

If they're going to bench Green, starting Anderson is a no-brainer, he's much better than Simmons..

[steeledl]

I keep thinking hes gonna come around but now hes passing up 3s driving and just fcking up

yep. literally making me rage. Like why would he think that is a good option? Boban has better handles than this nigga.

[Mikeanaro]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!
Danny never was a true starter.

[ElNono]

It's unnerving, but I think Pop is just letting him figure it out. If there's a time to do it, it's now. He'll keep starting and hopefully he can regain his touch from downtown... a shot of confidence would work great for him.

[keeferob25]

Let's be real here...at this point its so bad that their are NO positive expectations or results when Danny touches the ball...think about that for a second when you can say that about a primary STARTING rotation player on a NIGHTLY!

[SupremeGuy]

Yes. I've said so for the last few games. Let Danny play with the second team until he finds his shot again.

[Mikeanaro]

DG sucks he is the new bad Porker, only wants uncontested shots looks like Matty B, Simmons at least is giving his all like Patty was vs TP a few seasons ago.
DG passing blows, his defense is totally overrated and his athletism sucks he looks like he has just finished a long masturbation marathon every time he is on court.

[Lerojo]

I'd give green 2-3 weeks off to get his brain back. His problems are all mental. Meanwhile Simmons gets time to develop and is better if Green is still a scrub when he returns.

[weeks]

Let's be real here...at this point its so bad that their are NO positive expectations or results when Danny touches the ball...think about that for a second when you can say that about a primary STARTING rotation player on a NIGHTLY!
i remember him going into the paint, late in the game, and he fumbled it and it went out of bounds off toronto
i remember feeling RELIEF at the outcome, like "that went better than i expected!"

[Ice009]

i remember him going into the paint, late in the game, and he fumbled it and it went out of bounds off toronto
i remember feeling RELIEF at the outcome, like "that went better than i expected!"

lol. I thought the exact same thing on that play. I thought, wow, that turned out pretty good. Meanwhile, Danny was looking for the foul like he was a James Harden type of player and coming off like - I don't lose the ball unless I was fouled.

[keeferob25]

i remember him going into the paint, late in the game, and he fumbled it and it went out of bounds off toronto
i remember feeling RELIEF at the outcome, like "that went better than i expected!"

EXACTLY! A favorable result from Green is when it isn't a turnover fastbreak or a long rebound fastbreak for the other team off of one of his many season-long clankers. All for the hometown discount of 11 million a year smh

[Leebrix]

Trade Green tbh... dude is garbage now. If we do it now we might be able to get some kind of value out of it.

[Kikoluna]

Ok. Enough with the madness. We are 18-5. 2nd place in league! Relax. Trading green is madness.

[SAGirl]

Green would probably play better with the bench seeing as it's more open and less dribble dribble, iso.
The bench plays a very chaotic style that involves a lot of passing and cutting and reads on defense by everybody and all 3 perimeter players put the ball on the floor, cut, relocate and screen for each other. Danny has been very poor in that setting. His decision making and increased desire to drive has had bad results with the bench, since Manu is already TO prone, and lately so has been Patty. Adding Danny to that lineup is like gasoline to the fire. It will look like the Wiz game, IMO.

Danny's better with the starters or should be, since they need his defense, and the spacing his 3 pt shooting provides. He is just putting the ball on the floor way too much with very bad results.

Simmons should be better off the bench, since his slashing, easy transition basket chase, his nice passing ability is best suited to the bench style.

Anderson could play with both units. He's unlikely to make mistakes and he's a nice passer, and an unselfish player. Would be perfect for the SL since they already have too many guys that need to be fed shots. He can't defend quickie guards which is Danny's task and there you have the catch 22.

[Mikeanaro]

Ok. Enough with the madness. We are 18-5. 2nd place in league! Relax. Trading green is madness.
Green is a torta eater.

[-21-]

If they're going to bench Green, starting Anderson is a no-brainer, he's much better than Simmons..

^This. Simmons has potential but isn't ready to be a starter at this point. He turns the ball over and commits bad fouls way too much.


No. Green either figures it out or we are done.

^Also this. Without the Green that we used to know, we don't stand a chance against the Warriors.

[objective]

Simmons over Anderson if it comes to it. Simmons isn't a great for next to manu with his smaller size and length, compared to Anderson well wound be better against the bigger sfs in the league.

If anything, the move I'd rather see is Green still in the starting lineup, but replacing Mills with Simmons and use Manu as the ball handler. Patty has not had a good year to my eyes, and they need to be able to go big at the point to compete with Golden State for stretches.

[tmtcsc]

Spurs will need his defense more than offense against Warriors. Give him time to get his shot back.

[cd98]

Man the pass of the dribble turnover was a killer down the stretch.

[ChumpDumper]

lol spurfan groupthink is fun.

[kawhidoyoudothistome]

lol spurfan groupthink is fun.

I'm starting to see it as torture.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

So how many of you think he is worth the max now. I told you Green was worth only around 7-8 mil a year. He is still a good defender but he is a liability on offense. Guys like that are worth what Ariza, Reddick's, etc in world are making.

The problem is Kawhi and LMA. Now that he isn't just sitting in the corner waiting for 3's, Kawhi working the perimeter crowds Green space. Green needs to sit on the corner 3 more like Bowen did. His favorite spots are the wing, but Kawhi and LMA both like working the high post which puts a bottleneck into Green's play. If need would just rotate more to the corner and stay there, he would get a lot more open 3 point looks.

[Chinook]

Yes, he should go to the bench. You can give Simmons, Butler, Anderson and even McCallum chances to see what they can do. He needs a change of pace.

That said, he's dribbling more because Pop wants him to. I imagine he's trying to figure out a way to make Green more of a threat with the ball so teams can't just rest players on him. Against the Warriors, people want Parker to play well so Steph has to work, but Curry will be on Green, so it won't matter what Parker does. Danny's going to have to force Curry to play defense, so sitting in a corner is not really an option.

[bklynspursfan]

Green would probably get more open looks with the 2nd unit, that's what he needs. But I don't see it happening. He just needs to figure it out and for the love of God stop dribbling. Nothing good ever happens when he dribbles. It's either a floater that misses the rim or a turnover.

[TheDoctor]

LMAO at this thread and its Spurfans Anonymous self-help group.

[coachmac87]

Everybody needs to calm the fuck down. Green is trying to expand his game and it's going to take time...and now is the time to work on it. His shot always comes and goes...but when he's hot he's one of the best. Tbh Spurs just hope he's hot come postseason...but Green best asset is his defense and guarding Westbrook/Curry type of players.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Everybody needs to calm the fuck down. Green is trying to expand his game and it's going to take time...and now is the time to work on it. His shot always comes and goes...but when he's hot he's one of the best. Tbh Spurs just hope he's hot come postseason...but Green best asset is his defense and guarding Westbrook/Curry type of players.


Yeah, that TO at the end of the game yesterday left me in a Zen moment. I wasn't upset but I was like, WTF is Green doing.

[ViceCity86]

LOL Spurs fans thinking

DG>>>Bowen:lol
DG>>>Capt Jack:lol
DG>>>Memorial Day:lol
DG>>>Finley:lol
DG>>>Klay Thompson(Harlem):lol
DG>>>Ariza:lol
DG>>>Reddick:lol
DG>>>Jeremy Lamb:lol
DG>>>Oladipo:lol
DG Top 5 SG:lol

[Raven]

lol

[Agloco]

No. Green either figures it out or we are done.


If this is the real Green, then the Spurs aren't even close to a contender, unfortunately..

This.

Part of the issue is the new offense, but Greens shot appears to be broken to boot. He's clanking a lot of open looks that he ordinarily drains.

He's also the worst passer on the team. When he gets the ball he needs to be doing one thing, and one thing only.

[$pursDynasty]

The bench plays a very chaotic style that involves a lot of passing and cutting and reads on defense by everybody and all 3 perimeter players put the ball on the floor, cut, relocate and screen for each other. Danny has been very poor in that setting. His decision making and increased desire to drive has had bad results with the bench, since Manu is already TO prone, and lately so has been Patty. Adding Danny to that lineup is like gasoline to the fire.

Anderson could play with both units. He's unlikely to make mistakes and he's a nice passer, and an unselfish player. Would be perfect for the SL since they already have too many guys that need to be fed shots. He can't defend quickie guards which is Danny's task and there you have the catch 22.
Ah and here is the rub TP cannot guard the quickie guards, they are the biggest threat to our defense for the last few years, the Monte Ellis, B Westbrook quick penetration has been our Achilles heel and starting Fathead might only make that worse, not against most teams but against some it would be fatal.

[Agloco]

Yes, he should go to the bench. You can give Simmons, Butler, Anderson and even McCallum chances to see what they can do. He needs a change of pace.

That said, he's dribbling more because Pop wants him to. I imagine he's trying to figure out a way to make Green more of a threat with the ball so teams can't just rest players on him. Against the Warriors, people want Parker to play well so Steph has to work, but Curry will be on Green, so it won't matter what Parker does. Danny's going to have to force Curry to play defense, so sitting in a corner is not really an option.

i wonder if they can incorporate running him off of a bunch of screens much like Patty or TP. Youre right about camping him in the corner though.

[Mikeanaro]

Everybody needs to calm the fuck down. Green is trying to expand his game and it's going to take time...and now is the time to work on it. His shot always comes and goes...but when he's hot he's one of the best. Tbh Spurs just hope he's hot come postseason...but Green best asset is his defense and guarding Westbrook/Curry type of players.
His game is clearly regressing, and his shot has been off like a full year, last December Manu was the one giving his all in a hard schedule DG is just a role player and people should be asking him to do 3&D, because you are incorporating new tricks to the bag it doesnt mean you now suddenly suck at everything you already know.
I was one of the few users here saying DG was not a 10 mil/year player, what most guys dont understand is DG never had big aspirations in BB he was trash in Cleveland, waived and Spurs took him to his limits he had his peak in 14 and now after a championship and getting $ he is not worthy the time to get back to mediocrity has come.
Dude is not mentally or physically prepared to be more than a role player, by the way... you cant just expect uncontested shots just all the time, WTF is that?

[HarlemHeat37]

So how many of you think he is worth the max now. I told you Green was worth only around 7-8 mil a year. He is still a good defender but he is a liability on offense. Guys like that are worth what Ariza, Reddick's, etc in world are making.

The problem is Kawhi and LMA. Now that he isn't just sitting in the corner waiting for 3's, Kawhi working the perimeter crowds Green space. Green needs to sit on the corner 3 more like Bowen did. His favorite spots are the wing, but Kawhi and LMA both like working the high post which puts a bottleneck into Green's play. If need would just rotate more to the corner and stay there, he would get a lot more open 3 point looks.

What does Green's performance this year have to do with what he was worth in past years? That's like saying Aldridge isn't worth anywhere near his money, because of how he's played this season:lol

[HarlemHeat37]

His game is clearly regressing, and his shot has been off like a full year, last December Manu was the one giving his all in a hard schedule DG is just a role player and people should be asking him to do 3&D, because you are incorporating new tricks to the bag it doesnt mean you now suddenly suck at everything you already know.
I was one of the few users here saying DG was not a 10 mil/year player, what most guys dont understand is DG never had big aspirations in BB he was trash in Cleveland, waived and Spurs took him to his limits he had his peak in 14 and now after a championship and getting $ he is not worthy the time to get back to mediocrity has come.
Dude is not mentally or physically prepared to be more than a role player, by the way... you cant just expect uncontested shots just all the time, WTF is that?

He shot 42% from 3 last year and was huge last December, actually..

[Chinook]

his shot has been off like a full year,

No. Dude set a franchise record for made threes last season, and he was a top two SG in fantasy production. Dude was playing like a $15 Million player last year.

[Keepin' it real]

It's unnerving, but I think Pop is just letting him figure it out. If there's a time to do it, it's now. He'll keep starting and hopefully he can regain his touch from downtown... a shot of confidence would work great for him.

Figure what out? The guy is simply missing shots.

[gambit1990]

i wouldn't say he should start at this juncture but i definitely wanna see him get more playing time. he needs it.

[$pursDynasty]

Yes, he should go to the bench. You can give Simmons, Butler, Anderson and even McCallum chances to see what they can do. He needs a change of pace.

That said, he's dribbling more because Pop wants him to. I imagine he's trying to figure out a way to make Green more of a threat with the ball so teams can't just rest players on him. Against the Warriors, people want Parker to play well so Steph has to work, but Curry will be on Green, so it won't matter what Parker does. Danny's going to have to force Curry to play defense, so sitting in a corner is not really an option.
Funny how even the media proclaimed demigod Curry shifts to the less active G on defense, but I am sure he isn't roasted for it on Dubs boards like TP is over here. I guess it happens. Blair was the whipping boy for a spell, the Parker but now it seems to be moving towards LMA and Verde. I guess no matter how cool the class, there has to be one whipping boy.

[Nathan89]

Funny how even the media proclaimed demigod Curry shifts to the less active G on defense, but I am sure he isn't roasted for it on Dubs boards like TP is over here. I guess it happens. Blair was the whipping boy for a spell, the Parker but now it seems to be moving towards LMA and Verde. I guess no matter how cool the class, there has to be one whipping boy.

Because Warriors don't really have anyone to shift Parker on. He'll be shifted onto Barnes but will still get torched.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

What does Green's performance this year have to do with what he was worth in past years? That's like saying Aldridge isn't worth anywhere near his money, because of how he's played this season:lol

This is based off past performances. The reasons I gave were all the reasons shown this year. He can't dribble, can't create his own shot, he just a decent passer. Basically all he has shown he can do is play very good defense and hit the 3 ball when teams collapse on the Spurs players in the post.

If you think a player is worth 10-15 mil with this attributes, that is crazy.

I still think he is only worth 8 mil a year max. And this was before this year's performance. Now that teams are playing him tighter, he is showing just how effective he is offensively. Guys like Klay and Hayward and such can at least hit contested shots and create their own shots.

I still like Green and think he is vital for the Spurs to get pass GS. But I am not one of those people that overvalued his worth or said he was better than Bowen.

[TheDoctor]

His game is clearly regressing, and his shot has been off like a full year, last December Manu was the one giving his all in a hard schedule DG is just a role player and people should be asking him to do 3&D, because you are incorporating new tricks to the bag it doesnt mean you now suddenly suck at everything you already know.
I was one of the few users here saying DG was not a 10 mil/year player, what most guys dont understand is DG never had big aspirations in BB he was trash in Cleveland, waived and Spurs took him to his limits he had his peak in 14 and now after a championship and getting $ he is not worthy the time to get back to mediocrity has come.
Dude is not mentally or physically prepared to be more than a role player, by the way... you cant just expect uncontested shots just all the time, WTF is that?

Mikeanaro with the PtR take of the thread tbh.

[AFBlue]

No

[Stabula]

He's been really bad and I'm worried about whether this means anything or not but he needs to start. It's too early to hit the panic button.

[HarlemHeat37]

This is based off past performances. The reasons I gave were all the reasons shown this year. He can't dribble, can't create his own shot, he just a decent passer. Basically all he has shown he can do is play very good defense and hit the 3 ball when teams collapse on the Spurs players in the post.

If you think a player is worth 10-15 mil with this attributes, that is crazy.

I still think he is only worth 8 mil a year max. And this was before this year's performance. Now that teams are playing him tighter, he is showing just how effective he is offensively. Guys like Klay and Hayward and such can at least hit contested shots and create their own shots.

I still like Green and think he is vital for the Spurs to get pass GS. But I am not one of those people that overvalued his worth or said he was better than Bowen.

Bowen would look the same in today's league where they take away your corner 3s, tbh:lol..he had all the same flaws as Green, offensively, but he was even more exploitable since he was only able to shoot from 2 spots on the court(at a time where teams didn't take away corner 3s, yet)..

Teams aren't playing Green differently..that's just silly, he's been a starter on a perennial contender for 4 years, opposing teams didn't figure out that he can't dribble, all of a sudden..he's not the primary focus of the defense on a team with Aldridge/Kawhi/Parker/Duncan in the same unit..he's literally getting nearly the same number of wide open 3s as he always has, he's just missing them..

Having an atrocious start to the season doesn't change the fact that he had Draymond Green-level impact, last year, according to virtually all metrics..

[admiralsnackbar]

Yes, he should go to the bench. You can give Simmons, Butler, Anderson and even McCallum chances to see what they can do. He needs a change of pace. That said, he's dribbling more because Pop wants him to. I imagine he's trying to figure out a way to make Green more of a threat with the ball so teams can't just rest players on him. Against the Warriors, people want Parker to play well so Steph has to work, but Curry will be on Green, so it won't matter what Parker does. Danny's going to have to force Curry to play defense, so sitting in a corner is not really an option. Couldn't have said it better :toast

[hater]

lol spurfan groupthink is fun.


lol talking about spurfan groupthink is fun.

[ChumpDumper]

lol talking about spurfan groupthink is fun.Go make up another political forum lie.

[Mikeanaro]

He shot 42% from 3 last year and was huge last December, actually..
I just remember him sucking and Manu hurting his 40 year old scrotum to make Spurs win, while Danny was talking few shots and preparing to shine...
1/12 5 points 1/9 , 3pt 1/5 Won
3/12 20 points 7/14 , 3pt 6/11 Lost OT
5/12 16 points 6/10 , 3pt 4/5 Won
6/12 11 points 4/9 , 3pt 1/4 Won
9/12 13 points 6/10 , 3pt 1/5 Lost
10/12 13 points 3/10 , 3pt 1/6 Won
12/12 19 points 7/14, 3pt 5/9 Lost OT
14/12 5 points 2/7 , 3pt 1/4 Won
15/12 12 points 5/11 ,3pt 2/4 Lost
17/12 25 points 9/17 ,3pt 7/13 Lost 3 OT
19/12 27 points 9/21, 3pt 6/9 Lost 3 OT
20/12 DNP Lost
22/12 11 points 3/5 , 3pt 3/5 Won
25/12 12 points 4/13, 3pt 2/8 Lost
26/12 8 points 3/10, 3pt 2/4 Lost
28/12 24 points 6/13, 3pt 3/9 Won
30/12 7 points 3/11, 3pt 1/6 Lost
31/12 7 points 3/13, 3pt 0/8 Won

We lost more than we have won, and DG scored more because at times there was no TP (most of December) some other times there wasnt Kiwi (half December) and some times there werent both, but at the end of the day he is a poor´s man Gay Ray.

[Mikeanaro]

Mikeanaro with the PtR take of the thread tbh.
Why? is he any good now? Danny Groin needs uncontested shots like during workouts, you are a doctor so you know anyone having cats as pets is a retard... and anyone having snakes as pets is an introvert antisocial slow down brainless dummy.

[DJB]

Yes.

[Johnny RIngo]

At this point - yes. Need to do something to get him going.

[Mr Bones]

Danny's a mystery right now... & it's not only shooting-- his steal and block numbers are down, and his turnovers are up. The problem with him is he has to be paired with a ballhandler, because that's such a glaring weakness of his. So many other teams can rely on their SG to be a primary ballhandler at least some of the time during a game, but the Spurs can't do that with Green. I wonder if anything's going on in his personal life... last year Nick Batum had his worst year as a player & that was attributed to a nasty break up with his girlfriend... but he's had a great bounce back year with Charlotte. Maybe Green is going through something like that. Btw, Batum's a free agent after this season. I've thought of him as a possible Manu replacement because he's a ballhandler/passer (he had a triple double last night), but it'd be hard to make the money work. But the money could work if Green was traded for cheaper parts, like a back up PG or something like that.

[HarlemHeat37]

At this point - yes. Need to do something to get him going.

Pretty much..hopefully it works out like it did in 2014 when he got benched for Marco, but his slump was nowhere near as bad as it is right now IIRC..

I don't really see the Simmons fit in the SL unit, though, can't imagine him playing with that unit..it should be Anderson..

[Kawhitstorm]

Pretty much..hopefully it works out like it did in 2014 when he got benched for Marco, but his slump was nowhere near as bad as it is right now IIRC..

I don't really see the Simmons fit in the SL unit, though, can't imagine him playing with that unit..it should be Anderson..

That was actually at the same point of the season back in 2013. I already posted a link to an article covering his slump circa 2013. He ended up getting injured in January (fractured metacarpal) then came back in February & finished strong.

[SAGirl]

That was actually at the same point of the season back in 2013. I already posted a link to an article covering his slump circa 2013.
In that case, do you think Pop will just let him work through it or try someone else for a few games?
I personally think Pop will let him work through it some more. Maybe his drives and PnP plays with LMA is him trying to make some kind of impact offensively to put some points on the board from his position and not come out empty.

It hasn't been enough though.

[lilbthebasedgod]

No, just bench him in favor of manu or simmons during key stretches if he can't come through. He can't be forced to distribute like he would off the bench.

[Kawhitstorm]

In that case, do you think Pop will just let him work through it or try someone else for a few games?
I personally think Pop will let him work through it some more. Maybe his drives and PnP plays with LMA is him trying to make some kind of impact offensively to put some points on the board from his position and not come out empty.

It hasn't been enough though.

Marco isn't walking through that door so starting Kyle/Simmons might cause spacing issues. Since it's a new system, Pop might let him try to work it out until the end of this month unless the offense suffers mightily. If the team keeps trucking, he will most likely stay in the lineup despite his struggles.

[steeledl]

Pops given him a longer leash than I would have ever expected..... I guess that comes with making real NBA money now though.

[tholdren]

yes. I would start anyone on the roster ahead of Green. And why not? He's terrible

[TheGreatYacht]

Yes, he should go to the bench. You can give Simmons, Butler, Anderson and even McCallum chances to see what they can do. He needs a change of pace.

That said, he's dribbling more because Pop wants him to. I imagine he's trying to figure out a way to make Green more of a threat with the ball so teams can't just rest players on him. Against the Warriors, people want Parker to play well so Steph has to work, but Curry will be on Green, so it won't matter what Parker does. Danny's going to have to force Curry to play defense, so sitting in a corner is not really an option.
You're right. What if Green runs through a shit load of screens and makes Steph chase him ala Ray Allen? I don't know how we'll fix this, but making Green dribble is more cancerous to us than having Curry rest imo.

[SAGirl]

Marco isn't walking through that door so starting Kyle/Simmons might cause spacing issues. Since it's a new system, Pop might let him try to work it out until the end of this month unless the offense suffers mightily. If the team keeps trucking, he will most likely stay in the lineup despite his struggles.

The key with 3 pt shooting is that the 3 pt shooter has to be able to punish the double team. Danny is not doing that at the moment, but teams are still careful not to double off him and to close him out aggressively if they do. Danny not being able to do much when he gets closed out negates the whole point of the set, since it decreases the efficiency of the post up player passing the ball to him (gets no assist and no shots for himself), expends time on the shot clock, and ends up with a desperation heave by Danny or some other undesirable outcome. Danny's current offensive mess is a whole cancerous situation for the SL.

[Kawhitstorm]

The key with 3 pt shooting is that the 3 pt shooter has to be able to punish the double team. Danny is not doing that at the moment, but teams are still careful not to double off him and to close him out aggressively if they do. Danny not being able to do much when he gets closed out negates the whole point of the set, since it decreases the efficiency of the post up player passing the ball to him (gets no assist and no shots for himself), expends time on the shot clock, and ends up with a desperation heave by Danny or some other undesirable outcome. Danny's current offensive mess is a whole cancerous situation for the SL.

All he has to do is swing the ball on closeouts or step in for a 2 point shot just like Bowen instead of dribble penetrating, just making the defense scramble is a positive.:downspin:

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

All he has to do is swing the ball on closeouts or step in for a 2 point shot just like Bowen instead of dribble penetrating, just making the defense scramble is a positive.:downspin:

People forget Bowen was able to do this. Bowen wasn't the best dribbler either but he had that side step 3/2 pt shot down. That is what Green needs to be working on. That in itself will keep defender from closing out to hard. But he take is all the way in the lane everytime he puts the ball down. That just isn't working for him at this point, probably won't in the future.

Adding to his outside shot selection would best serve Green going forward.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

No, Green still offers gravity even if his shot isn't falling. Teams would ignore Simmons/Anderson making life more difficult for Kawhi and LaMarcus.

[Chinook]

People forget Bowen was able to do this. Bowen wasn't the best dribbler either but he had that side step 3/2 pt shot down. That is what Green needs to be working on. That in itself will keep defender from closing out to hard. But he take is all the way in the lane everytime he puts the ball down. That just isn't working for him at this point, probably won't in the future.

Adding to his outside shot selection would best serve Green going forward.

The last thing the Spurs need in their starting lineup is more long-twos. The Spurs need Green to attack, and for the most part, the results are better than people think. But the big difference between last year and this year is that Danny got a lot of foul calls on his drives last season. It makes almost no sense that Green is driving more than ever but getting the fewest FTA pg that he's had since becoming a rotation player.

Officials are just not helping him out anymore. Maybe the refs have finally learned that he loses the ball so much on his own and to no bail him out. But it was an underrated part of his game that he could count on if he had to run off the line, and he still hasn't adjusted to the new paradigm. He's going to have to keep driving, though, even if he should just shoot the three more. The thing he has to focus on is just being decisive when he's approaching the rim. If he doesn't have a passing lane already established, he should just shoot it, shot-blockers be damned. Getting the ball swatted out of bounds is not as bad as giving up a live-ball TO.

[Chinook]

No, Green still offers gravity even if his shot isn't falling. Teams would ignore Simmons/Anderson making life more difficult for Kawhi and LaMarcus.

They'd ignore those two up until they started scoring. That's how gravity gets established. That latency is why Green's gravity is larger than Kawhi's even though Leonard has been a superior shooter this season.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

They'd ignore those two up until they started scoring. That's how gravity gets established. That latency is why Green's gravity is larger than Kawhi's even though Leonard has been a superior shooter this season.

Indeed, but no one seriously expects Anderson or Simmons to be able to start shooting the 3 like 2014/15 Green, so the spacing would suffer. Not to mention what Green offers defenisvely, which seems to be ignored.

[Chinook]

Indeed, but no one seriously expects Anderson or Simmons to be able to start shooting the 3 like 2014/15 Green, so the spacing would suffer. Not to mention what Green offers defenisvely, which seems to be ignored.

I doubt anyone but the most extreme Green haters thinks he should be benched permanently. He needs a jolt to get his head straight. Benching him is more about helping him find his way with a more open unit that it is about fixing the first unit. The starters will be awkward offensively so long as they rely on midrange jumpers, and that's not going to change.

[playbonner15]

Recall Jimmer from D-League, replace Danny, position Jimmer farther away from the 3pt line to give more space for LMA..........

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

The last thing the Spurs need in their starting lineup is more long-twos. The Spurs need Green to attack, and for the most part, the results are better than people think. But the big difference between last year and this year is that Danny got a lot of foul calls on his drives last season. It makes almost no sense that Green is driving more than ever but getting the fewest FTA pg that he's had since becoming a rotation player.

Officials are just not helping him out anymore. Maybe the refs have finally learned that he loses the ball so much on his own and to no bail him out. But it was an underrated part of his game that he could count on if he had to run off the line, and he still hasn't adjusted to the new paradigm. He's going to have to keep driving, though, even if he should just shoot the three more. The thing he has to focus on is just being decisive when he's approaching the rim. If he doesn't have a passing lane already established, he should just shoot it, shot-blockers be damned. Getting the ball swatted out of bounds is not as bad as giving up a live-ball TO.

Dude, no Green driving DOES NOT help the Spurs. Just side step the defender and put up a jumper like Beli use to. But driving it all the way down in the lane and dishing it out to a defender is not helping the Spurs in the slightest.

.320 shooting and 2.0 APG over 1.4 TO a game shows otherwise. Green doesn't have the Ball Handles and Court Vision to do that. Just side step the defender and shoot. Guys like Kerr, Bowen Kersey, Bonner, etc made a killing in the Spurs system just doing just that. Green doesn't need to be all-world. Even Simmons is doing just this and he has better handles and passing abilities than Green. He side steps his defender. If he sees the help defender collapse on him hard, which they have because of his ability to get to the rim, he dishes it off to the open man immediately. Before, he was ducking his head and taking to the rim every time, which caused him to have A LOT of turnovers.

Get it through your head, Green will never come close to being Manu in driving and dishing. You are going to see more moments like the ones in the Raptors game, where he cost the Spurs the game, than he helps them win if he continues playing like this.

Green has been with the Spurs for 4 FUCKIN YEARS. His ceiling is almost capped by now. What you saw in the '14 Finals where he did drive and had some nice pull up J's is about as good as it is going to get for Green. Him being a bonafide playmaker is NEVER going to happen.

This is a good article. Green is still vital for the Spurs. But as the article notes, he is 3 and D player who makes hustle plays. Every team needs this type of player. Asking him to do more is setting him up for failure as we have seen this year.

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/12/10/9884566/danny-green-is-still-important

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

I just want to follow it up. Notice on that play where Green passes it off to Manu. He did it EARLY. That is why he needs to do consistently. If the shot is there, shoot it, but he he sees his man open, pass it. He had that TO and it woke Green up and he played very well for the last 1 minute of that game.

http://www.nba.com/games/20151209/SASTOR/gameinfo.html

But Green needs to stop taking it to the hole. 25-15 ft should be Green territory unless the Help defender COMPLETELY ignores him while he is driving. He showed this in the '14 finals as well. Green has shown he is a VERY EFFECTIVE player playing like this. Him trying to do more is just going to cost the Spurs in the long run.

[pgardn]

Danny is getting open looks.

We need him to pass through this phase so he will hit big shots in the playoffs. I'm not sure that second team will get him on track.

I say pound the rock, it'll happen. GS is really going to have to die for people worried about HC. We are in a good place. The West is weaker so we can be patient.

[pgardn]

I just want to follow it up. Notice on that play where Green passes it off to Manu. He did it EARLY. That is why he needs to do consistently. If the shot is there, shoot it, but he he sees his man open, pass it. He had that TO and it woke Green up and he played very well for the last 1 minute of that game.

http://www.nba.com/games/20151209/SASTOR/gameinfo.html

But Green needs to stop taking it to the hole. 25-15 ft should be Green territory unless the Help defender COMPLETELY ignores him while he is driving. He showed this in the '14 finals as well. Green has shown he is a VERY EFFECTIVE player playing like this. Him trying to do more is just going to cost the Spurs in the long run.


It it would be fine if the help ignored him if he could just finish.

If Danny covered himself he would never score.

[Chinook]

Dude, no Green driving DOES NOT help the Spurs. Just side step the defender and put up a jumper like Beli use to. But driving it all the way down in the lane and dishing it out to a defender is not helping the Spurs in the slightest.

He's not good at shooting long twos off the dribble, and that shot sucks. You DON'T want him shooting it there. If he can't shoot the three and there's no driving lane, he should just pass it back out. Learning to shoot an inefficient shot isn't going to help him. Learning to shoot long-twos coming off screens is a different story, but we're not talking about that right now.


.320 shooting and 2.0 APG over 1.4 TO a game shows otherwise. Green doesn't have the Ball Handles and Court Vision to do that. Just side step the defender and shoot. Guys like Kerr, Bowen Kersey, Bonner, etc made a killing in the Spurs system just doing just that. Green doesn't need to be all-world. Even Simmons is doing just this and he has better handles and passing abilities than Green. He side steps his defender. If he sees the help defender collapse on him hard, which they have because of his ability to get to the rim, he dishes it off to the open man immediately. Before, he was ducking his head and taking to the rim every time, which caused him to have A LOT of turnovers.

Green has had 24 turnovers with the ball in his hand against 46 assists. That's actually not a bad ratio. I'm sorry it doesn't fit you heuristically driven perception, but the problem with Green dribbling isn't that he turns it over a lot. His shooting percentages are just abysmal across the board right now, but he is usually pretty fine near the rim. It's just that his misses are so bad that people think he's worse that he is.



Get it through your head, Green will never come close to being Manu in driving and dishing. You are going to see more moments like the ones in the Raptors game, where he cost the Spurs the game, than he helps them win if he continues playing like this.

Green has been with the Spurs for 4 FUCKIN YEARS. His ceiling is almost capped by now. What you saw in the '14 Finals where he did drive and had some nice pull up J's is about as good as it is going to get for Green. Him being a bonafide playmaker is NEVER going to happen.

These are just two hypocritical paragraphs. You want to talk about Green not being able to add anything to his game while saying he should add something to his game. The bigger issue is that you're completely mischaracterizing what I said. The reason why Green was pretty decent inside the arc last season and is awful this season is because he's not getting any foul calls. Those fouls helped offset his general inaccuracy in the paint. This season, the refs are swallowing the whistle on his misses. That's not to say the refs aren't right to do so. But it is a very noticeable difference.

The point is that the Spurs don't need Danny taking long-twos. Hell, they don't need ANYONE taking them, but LMA and Leonard live off them, so they'll have to take them. If Green can't shoot the three and can get to the rim, he needs to pass it out. A two-point shooting Green doesn't help the team at all. But the biggest problem with Green right now is that he can't seem to hit the threes he takes. We wouldn't be talking about him driving versus taking long-twos if he were shooting better.

And PtR sucks.

[Chinook]

It it would be fine if the help ignored him if he could just finish.

If Danny covered himself he would never score.

Danny would do a much better job covering Leonard than he would do covering himself. Green likes to help off his man a lot, and it's just not a good idea to do so against a shooter like Green is when he's on. With Leonard, he'd have to be engaged and would be on the ball a lot more. Against himself, he'd get burned quite a bit on open threes.

[pgardn]

Danny would do a much better job covering Leonard than he would do covering himself. Green likes to help off his man a lot, and it's just not a good idea to do so against a shooter like Green is when he's on. With Leonard, he'd have to be engaged and would be on the ball a lot more. Against himself, he'd get burned quite a bit on open threes.

As a defender on himself he would never have to leave himself. He could just run himself off the line and knock the ball away or block himself trying to finish. Covering KL, no such luck without help. Green could shut himself down easily.

And you are, IMO, looking at stats for his ability to merely not make a mistake. It's clear he does not risk turning the ball over while dribbling as he immediately gives the ball up. The problem is the ability to create something with the ball is almost zero. This is a guard on a team who has an aging Tony Parker playing next to him. KL is much better with the ball in the open floor. So the set offense relies on Parker breaking down the D, and passes from the elbow with our tall, adept posts watching for cutters. This is where our easiest baskets come unless KL just goes off from 3 and then monster drives, or vice versa.

The Isos we now employ are still in the realm of Boris as the easiest. And this is second team stuff.

[Chinook]

As a defender on himself he would never have to leave himself. He could just run himself off the line and block himself trying to finish. Covering KL, no such luck without help.

Green leaves Kyle Korver open. If the dude is just standing around, Danny's going to drift off him. It's just his nature. The dude managed to leave Jimmer Fredette open.


And you are, IMO, looking at stats for his ability to merely not make a mistake. It's clear he does not risk turning the ball over while dribbling as he immediately gives the ball up.

CWS tried citing Green's stats to say he's a turnover machine when he drives. He's actually not according to his stats. But that doesn't make him a good play-maker. I know that. The Spurs need him to do more than just stand around, though. Pop doesn't seem to want Green to just be run off the line. There are passes that Green can make pretty well off the dribble, and there are some he should never really attempt. He'll be more efficient when he realizes that he's better off shooting that attempting a bad pass. Bonner's decisive on his drives, and that's what helps him succeed there. Green is still overthinking things.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

He's not good at shooting long twos off the dribble, and that shot sucks. You DON'T want him shooting it there. If he can't shoot the three and there's no driving lane, he should just pass it back out. Learning to shoot an inefficient shot isn't going to help him. Learning to shoot long-twos coming off screens is a different story, but we're not talking about that right now.



Green has had 24 turnovers with the ball in his hand against 46 assists. That's actually not a bad ratio. I'm sorry it doesn't fit you heuristically driven perception, but the problem with Green dribbling isn't that he turns it over a lot. His shooting percentages are just abysmal across the board right now, but he is usually pretty fine near the rim. It's just that his misses are so bad that people think he's worse that he is.




These are just two hypocritical paragraphs. You want to talk about Green not being able to add anything to his game while saying he should add something to his game. The bigger issue is that you're completely mischaracterizing what I said. The reason why Green was pretty decent inside the arc last season and is awful this season is because he's not getting any foul calls. Those fouls helped offset his general inaccuracy in the paint. This season, the refs are swallowing the whistle on his misses. That's not to say the refs aren't right to do so. But it is a very noticeable difference.

The point is that the Spurs don't need Danny taking long-twos. Hell, they don't need ANYONE taking them, but LMA and Leonard live off them, so they'll have to take them. If Green can't shoot the three and can get to the rim, he needs to pass it out. A two-point shooting Green doesn't help the team at all. But the biggest problem with Green right now is that he can't seem to hit the threes he takes. We wouldn't be talking about him driving versus taking long-twos if he were shooting better.

And PtR sucks.

This is where I disagree. Just shooting like 3-4x 20 ft jumpers a game will make teams play off of him more. The fact teams KNOW he isn't going to shoot this shot and the fact that they know he isn't great at finishing at the rim, they are going to give him this shot. Proved that you can hit it and teams are forced to play you differently. Manu does it, Kwahi does it, Parker does it, Mills does it, Beli did it while he was here. I see you point of not making a habit of it, but if don't shoot any period, teams are going to have that space to work with to defend you.

Green is not hitting them because teams are running him off the line. And notice how he had the open 20 ft jumper but instead pass to Manu, which is a good play. But, the fact that teams know he is not going to shoot that shot, makes it much easier to defend him.

Green isn't James Harden. Green doesn't sell the fouls neither does he know how to draw fouls. On his drives, he is not getting fouled. Teams know he is not a great finisher at the rim so they play him straight up.

And as far as Green adding to his game, he has shown in previous seasons that he can hit the long 2. It's not my favorite shot either. But a 3 pt specialist needs to hit these so teams will play you softer on the 3 point line. It's like saying if a guy can't dribble with his left, make him go left. That is basically what teams are doing to Green at this point.

[NameLess Scrub]

The thing he has to focus on is just being decisive when he's approaching the rim. If he doesn't have a passing lane already established, he should just shoot it, shot-blockers be damned. Getting the ball swatted out of bounds is not as bad as giving up a live-ball TO.

This. If he'll keep driving, maybe he should just go for the finish unless it's really safe to pass.

That could help with the foul calling, putting more pressure on the defense.

Also, how would RA play defense against the starting SGs of the league?

[Chinook]

This is where I disagree. Just shooting like 3-4x 20 ft jumpers a game will make teams play off of him more. The fact teams KNOW he isn't going to shoot this shot and the fact that they know he isn't great at finishing at the rim, they are going to give him this shot. Proved that you can hit it and teams are forced to play you differently. Manu does it, Kwahi does it, Parker does it, Mills does it, Beli did it while he was here. I see you point of not making a habit of it, but if don't shoot any period, teams are going to have that space to work with to defend you.

It's perfectly fine for him to shoot pull-up twos if he thinks it's a good look. But that shouldn't be his plan if he's run off the line. There almost always has to be a better shot than a Green 17-footer off the dribble.


Green is not hitting them because teams are running him off the line. And notice how he had the open 20 ft jumper but instead pass to Manu, which is a good play. But, the fact that teams know he is not going to shoot that shot, makes it much easier to defend him.

Green's bad percentage on open looks isn't because he's being run off the llne. Danny was run off the line a lot last season, and his percentage was still acceptable.


Green isn't James Harden. Green doesn't sell the fouls neither does he know how to draw fouls. On his drives, he is not getting fouled. Teams know he is not a great finisher at the rim so they play him straight up.

That sounds great, but unless you think teams JUST figured that out, it doesn't explain why Danny's FTA this season are much lower than at any point in his career as an actualized player.


And as far as Green adding to his game, he has shown in previous seasons that he can hit the long 2. It's not my favorite shot either. But a 3 pt specialist needs to hit these so teams will play you softer on the 3 point line. It's like saying if a guy can't dribble with his left, make him go left. That is basically what teams are doing to Green at this point.

Team's aren't making Green drive. He's choosing to drive if he feels like he has a lane. Simply put, Pop is not going to just sit there while Green makes mistake after mistake to the detriment of the team. He's driving because Pop wants him to. He wants Green to figure out how to score and when to pass or shoot. For numerous reasons, Danny parking on the perimeter and settling for long-twos when he's pressure is not workable against good teams. What Bowen did wouldn't be workable today.

If Danny can get back to his old level of three-point shooting while figuring a couple of go-to moves off the dribble, then this was more than worth it. The priority needs to be getting his shooting confidence back, though. That's why going to the bench would be a decent strategy. He will have open shots and wider driving lanes with the second unit. He can use it as a training ground, and Anderson/Simmons can use the temporary promotion as a way to gain valuable experience.

[Kawhitstorm]

The last thing the Spurs need in their starting lineup is more long-twos. The Spurs need Green to attack, and for the most part, the results are better than people think. But the big difference between last year and this year is that Danny got a lot of foul calls on his drives last season. It makes almost no sense that Green is driving more than ever but getting the fewest FTA pg that he's had since becoming a rotation player.

Officials are just not helping him out anymore. Maybe the refs have finally learned that he loses the ball so much on his own and to no bail him out. But it was an underrated part of his game that he could count on if he had to run off the line, and he still hasn't adjusted to the new paradigm. He's going to have to keep driving, though, even if he should just shoot the three more. The thing he has to focus on is just being decisive when he's approaching the rim. If he doesn't have a passing lane already established, he should just shoot it, shot-blockers be damned. Getting the ball swatted out of bounds is not as bad as giving up a live-ball TO.

Your love affair w/ Danny is blinding you. The issue this season is that he's shooting floaters or aborting his drives & kicking it out. Last season he went to the hole & dump the ball off to Tim even if he still did abort his drives shoot floater occasionally. He was also stepping in & shooting 15 footers when defenders run at him if the bigs were sagging. This season he is insists on running PnRs w/ LMA & trying to kick it back to him by throwing jump passes or throwing up his shitty floaters when he drives too deep & realizes the bigs aren't going to step out of the paint.

It would be better if he was getting his shot swatted out of bounds rather than his dumb turnovers right into the defenders hands or bricks which are basically the equivalent of live-ball turnovers. LoL @ Danny shooting long 2s being worse than the all the dumb shyt he's doing this season.

[Chinook]

You love affair w/ Danny is blinding you. The issue this season is that he's shooting floaters or aborting his drives & kicking it out. Last season he went to the hole & dump the ball off to Tim even if he still did abort his drives shoot floater occasionally. He was also stepping in & shooting 15 footers when defenders run at him if the bigs were sagging. This season he is insists on running PnRs w/ LMA & trying to kick it back to him by throwing jump passes or throwing up his shitty floaters when he drives too deep & realizes the bigs aren't going to step out of the paint.

Some of this stuff is good analysis, honestly. But the premise isn't. Green shot 16.9 percent of his shots at the rim last season, compared to 14.4 percent this season. While there has been an increase in short-range shots, it doesn't account for a 50-percent drop-off in FTA. Last year, 83 percent of his turnovers were bad passes or lost balls. This year it's 75 percent. So he's not more turnover-prone when he drives so far this season. He's shooting a worse percentage near the rim, but he's shooting a worse percentage from everywhere.

Again, people are being ignorant thinking that Danny is doing something different when he drives. He's in a slump there as much as he is at the arc, but he's not a walking disaster like folks are trying to suggest. He takes care of the ball better than you'd expect, and he's still shooting 50 percent. If he were shooting 40 percent on the threes he took, people would barely notice his driving.


It would be better if he was getting his shot swatted out of bounds rather than his dumb turnovers right into the defenders hands or bricks which are basically the equivalent of live-ball turnovers.

I wish I had thought to say that...


LoL @ Danny shooting long 2s being worse than the all the dumb shyt he's doing this season.

Missing long-twos is worse than missing layups. And even taking them is worse than driving, because it puts like zero pressure on the defense.

[SAGirl]

If Danny can get back to his old level of three-point shooting while figuring a couple of go-to moves off the dribble, then this was more than worth it. The priority needs to be getting his shooting confidence back, though. That's why going to the bench would be a decent strategy. He will have open shots and wider driving lanes with the second unit. He can use it as a training ground, and Anderson/Simmons can use the temporary promotion as a way to gain valuable experience.

I agree with you in that the most valuable is for him to regain his 3 pt shot confidence and swagger. His counters are probably always going to be mediocre, but if he's shooting the 3 like we know he can, it doesn't matter. When he's not hitting his shots, then all the problems with his counters are magnified and become a sore.

Neither Simms nor Anderson are the threats from 3 than Danny is. I believe Anderson can really shoot the 3, but he has a slow shot and is not confident shooting over close outs, so he passes out of shots a whole lot. Simms is unknown in terms of his shooting. I don't think he's even the 3 pt shooter Anderson is in an empty gym, but he's playing with more confidence than Anderson at the moment, which works to his advantage.

Pop did leave Simms in the Raptors game for longer than I thought he would, considering how strict he has been with Anderson. Simms racked up fouls quickly, and turned the ball over in a short stretch. Also, to be honest, I thought a couple of offensive fouls that were charged to the other team when Simms was running through screens easily could have been on Simms, as he doesn't negotiate screens well at all, and he's a tough guy who does push screeners away. They were 50/50 calls and they are not always going to go his way.

He has potential, but is still raw, so I don't see him as a starting level player. He's nowhere near the defender or shooter Danny is, and his driving is going to be nullified if he can't shoot the 3 as ppl will just sag off him. Right now, Simms is not being gameplanned for the way teams gameplan for Green. If we start Simms it could be worse than Danny is right now, as teams will just sag off him and draw charges as he wants to predictably drive.

Simms also strikes me as weakminded. He has talent, but he's looked scrubbish making bad decisions under pressure and playing wildly. Pop leaving him to play through mistakes, when he has been that much tougher on both ends with Anderson and Green at earlier times in his development, is I think Pop coddling him a little bit so as not to destroy the confidence he has gained.

Bottom line, Simms is still a developing player that Pop would rather not put ahead of Danny, so it will require a whole lot to go to Simms instead of Danny.

That said, Pop did go to Simms for longer stretches of time against the Raptors, and Danny played less minutes than he otherwise would have. I think Pop was testing Simms against Derozen, and Lowry to find out what he can do, and to coach him up. If the situation with Danny continues, we might see more minutes of Simms, less of Danny.

I don't see a Danny for Anderson swap. Anderson is SF quite simple, in size as well as skill. He can even play some small ball 4 quite well, and has been very good defending guys his size and the occassional quickie guard in switches, but to assign him to the quickest guys and more dangerous threats in the perimeter (Danny's assignments) might be a disaster, and yet who knows. Pop might experiment there too.

[Chinook]

Benching Green isn't about improving the first unit. It needs Danny to reach its potential. It's about getting Danny to play up to his potential so the first unit can become a juggernaut. Other players have things to work on (LMA and Kawhi's chemistry and trying to fit Parker and Duncan into that dynamic). But they don't need Green to do that.

The added benefit is that Simmons and Anderson will gain some experience. Jonathon is talented enough to be a decent defender and he can at least do what Green is doing now offensively (brick threes and drive). He doesn't have Danny's gravity, but that's just better for him to develop.

Anderson would play the three and Kawhi would play the two. Kyle would get the worse wing to guard. He seems like a decent corner shooter now, so he can spot up there at the worst. The rebounding would be insane with Kyle, Leonard, LMA and Duncan. And there'd be nice help defense. I don't think it's a playoff-worthy lineup, but I wouldn't mind rolling it out against the majority of opponents.

And it's not like Danny wouldn't still be playing starter's minutes. He'd probably come in at the seven- or eight-minute mark and close out the quarter. Then he'd come back at the nine-minute mark of the second and play until the two- or three-minute mark. It would mean Kawhi wouldn't play as deep into the first, but that's probably a good thing anyway.

[SAGirl]

Hopefully Danny turns it around.

I agree with you it will be a good opportunity for Simmons or Anderson to grow, which will give Pop more guys to use for different situations.

Anderson's corner 3 might give him an advantage in that case, since he can really make that shot if he's left unguarded and the paint is clogged. He's hitting 50% on open 3s all from the corner. Small sample but he can hit it. He's not going to launch 3s like Danny or from Danny's spots, but an adjustment could be made to accommodate him at the corner.

[SnakeBoy]

Green shot 16.9 percent of his shots at the rim last season, compared to 14.4 percent this season.

I wonder what his percentage is when practicing. Does he kick ass and wonder why he can't do it during games or does he suck but think yeah I'm gonna roll with this anyways.

[Kawhitstorm]

Some of this stuff is good analysis, honestly. But the premise isn't. Green shot 16.9 percent of his shots at the rim last season, compared to 14.4 percent this season. While there has been an increase in short-range shots, it doesn't account for a 50-percent drop-off in FTA. Last year, 83 percent of his turnovers were bad passes or lost balls. This year it's 75 percent. So he's not more turnover-prone when he drives so far this season. He's shooting a worse percentage near the rim, but he's shooting a worse percentage from everywhere.


First off, he's attempting 15% of his shot b/w 3-16 ft at a 31% success rate (his attempts have gone up & his efficiency has gone down the drain esp. from 3-10 ft where he take his shitty floaters). His 46% at the rim & his 28% on his floaters are both WORST on the team.



Again, people are being ignorant thinking that Danny is doing something different when he drives. He's in a slump there as much as he is at the arc, but he's not a walking disaster like folks are trying to suggest. He takes care of the ball better than you'd expect, and he's still shooting 50 percent. If he were shooting 40 percent on the threes he took, people would barely notice his driving.

His turnover rate has also increased by 4% although his usage rate has decreased. (Kawhi's TOs rate has decreased w/ increased usage is only 7% compared to 14% for Danny)



Missing long-twos is worse than missing layups. And even taking them is worse than driving, because it puts like zero pressure on the defense.

My point is instead of him driving into a crowd, he should pull up for a long two instead of throwing up a shitty float or turning the ball over. The best thing to do would be to swing the ball if defenders are running at him & get the defense scrambling.

[Chinook]

I wonder what his percentage is when practicing. Does he kick ass and wonder why he can't do it during games or does he suck but think yeah I'm gonna roll with this anyways.

That's the percentage of his total shots, not his FG% in those spots, just to be clear. His FG% at the rim this season is 46.2, while last year it was 58.4, the year before that it was 69.8 (and shots at the rim accounted for 12.5 percent of all his shots), which is actually very, very good. But anyway, he FG% is down 10 points this season, but that's not as big as the 12.4-point drop in his 3PT%

[TD 21]

Of course not; he'd cramp their spacing. Whether Green starts progressing to the mean or not, he's built up so much currency as a shooter, I highly doubt that teams are going to disregard him or at least have less regard for him . . . and that's what spacing is. It's not actual ability to shoot, it's the reputation for being able to do so.

The reality is, they no longer have another starting option (obviously Ginobili is needed to run the second unit) and it's yet another reason why they need to upgrade fourth wing. Not that they need a starter, but it would be nice to have someone to push him.

As an aside, I don't get why Pop has seemingly decided Butler is no longer a wing, when his best attribute has been his surprising athleticism/mobility. Granted, he hasn't shot it well since around mid season last season, but they desperately need three-point shooting and he at least has the rep.

[Chinook]

First off, he's attempting 15% of his shot b/w 3-16 ft at a 31% success rate (his attempts have gone up & his efficiency has gone down the drain esp. from 3-10 ft where he take his shitty floaters). His 46% at the rim & his 28% on his floaters are both WORST on the team.

Why do you say "first off" like that even addresses what I said? You're talking about a completely different type of shot. Anyway, he went from those shot comprising 11 percent of his attempts to them comprising 16 percent of his attempts. Somehow, I don't think that explains his inefficiency.


His turnover rate has also increased by 4% although his usage rate has decreased. (Kawhi's TOs rate has decreased w/ increased usage is only 7% compared to 14% for Danny)

Green has had a larger percentage of his TOs come from violations or offensive fouls (illegal screens). He's averaging 1.04 on-ball TOs a game despite being such an abortion driving, and that's compared to the .95 he averaged per game last year. Again, that will be statistically significant if it holds up, but it won't explain why everything else is so bad.


My point is instead of him driving into a crowd, he should pull up for a long two instead of throwing up a shitty float or turning the ball over. The best thing to do would be to swing the ball if defenders are running at him & get the defense scrambling.

You're trying to create a bigger problem than there is. Green is definitely worse this year than he was last year, but that's just an across-the-board thing. He's not particularly worse at driving. Green does not need to settle for the worst shot in basketball.

[spursince#99]

Simmons should definitely start. Sure he has a habit of fouling RIGHT NOW, and is often times roaming on defense, but all of that is fixed with PT. Tbh this has been on its way for quite some time with Danny Green. Pop has done a masterful job disguising his dreadful deficiencies for as long as he has, but outright this dude just stinks. Sure he does good things like rebounding, good transition & help defense, and shooting. However, his greatest asset, shooting, has decreased to its mean. I must say I'm impressed because I felt it'd happen a season or 2 ago, but I was wrong. Long story short he's really useless when his shot isn't falling, and there's a reason why he was in the D-League and cut multiple times. There's a reason why Coach Pop said he's useless if he's not knocking down his shots. He doesn't belong in this league, but credit to Pop and the coaching staff for leading everyone to believe otherwise. He passes the ball like a WNBA guard. Does he even lift? Jesus Christ this dude stinks. I could go all day but I'm not really in the mood to debate. Continue justifying his efficiency with advanced stats.

[sasaint]

Anderson would play the three and Kawhi would play the two. Kyle would get the worse wing to guard. He seems like a decent corner shooter now, so he can spot up there at the worst. The rebounding would be insane with Kyle, Leonard, LMA and Duncan. And there'd be nice help defense. I don't think it's a playoff-worthy lineup, but I wouldn't mind rolling it out against the majority of opponents.

And it's not like Danny wouldn't still be playing starter's minutes. He'd probably come in at the seven- or eight-minute mark and close out the quarter. Then he'd come back at the nine-minute mark of the second and play until the two- or three-minute mark. It would mean Kawhi wouldn't play as deep into the first, but that's probably a good thing anyway.

We would not be able to use that lineup to start against some teams, but I like your suggestion. I would like to see that as a starting unit against some of the bigger and/or slower teams in the league, as well as during games when we have the lead. Good luck to an opponent's small ball lineup trying to defend that lineup.

[pgardn]

Green leaves Kyle Korver open. If the dude is just standing around, Danny's going to drift off him. It's just his nature. The dude managed to leave Jimmer Fredette open.



.

Well if Green drops off Curry when asked to step in and defend then my nature is to bench him.

[jermaine]

Oooooomg that dunk off the air ball then tried to put Randle on a poster....

[Dancelot]

Does :pop: read Spurstalk?

[Brian Windhorst]

Need some damage control in this thread tbh

[NASpurs]

(kind of)

http://i.giphy.com/5mBE2MiMVFITS.gif

LDN is still mah nigga tho.

[urunobili]

Keep Manu on 10 mpg and develop Simmons during the regular season...

[bic50]

Gif of simmons dunk please

[ginobilized]

Pop went Serbian on Green tonight, that might wake him up.
Simmons and Anderson are each possible starters if Green continues to go fetal this season.

[SquawkinHawkBigCock]

Simmons +17
Green -2

[steeledl]

Pop went Serbian on Green tonight, that might wake him up.
Simmons and Anderson are each possible starters if Green continues to go fetal this season.

Anderson:lmao

[steeledl]

Keep Manu on 10 mpg and develop Simmons during the regular season...

[Mikeanaro]

Simmons is the man.

[playbonner15]

Gif of simmons dunk please

https://streamable.com/7o7m

[TMTTRIO]

Keep Manu on 10 mpg and develop Simmons during the regular season...
or just give Simmons all of Manu's minutes.

[NASpurs]

or just give Simmons all of Manu's minutes.

Yeah we get it, you hate (love) Manu.

Does Manu have a restraining order on you or something?

[bic50]

https://streamable.com/7o7m

Thanks :bobo

[ceperez]

Really concerning now about Danny Green. What does Pop need to do to get him motivated?

[Kawhitstorm]

Why do you say "first off" like that even addresses what I said? You're talking about a completely different type of shot. Anyway, he went from those shot comprising 11 percent of his attempts to them comprising 16 percent of his attempts. Somehow, I don't think that explains his inefficiency.


It's relevant b/c it debunked your claimed about him attempting more shot at the rim than he's shooting floaters when he's ACTUALLY attempting as many floaters as layups.

[Trill Clinton]

simmons is slowly gaining more and more confidence and he is really forcing pop to think about inserting him in the starting lineup. the only thing keeping him from starting is him getting lost on defense at times. danny is doing everything he can to give simmons his starting job.

[bic50]

Last season some here were upset with pop because they felt he was being an asshole to green and using him as a wiping boy. Now they say green sucks to start simmons or trade him or maybe pop needs to wake green up. Maybe pop was being an asshole to green because it lights a fire under greens ass and makes him perform better. I think pop as lightened up on green this season and so far he isn't the same green we are used to.
I feel bad for green though. Good thing is simmons is starting to come along nicely, so once green gets out of this slump we have green and simmons contributing.

[tholdren]

I'm better than both

[SAGirl]

Really concerning now about Danny Green. What does Pop need to do to get him motivated?


Last season some here were upset with pop because they felt he was being an asshole to green and using him as a wiping boy. Now they say green sucks to start simmons or trade him or maybe pop needs to wake green up. Maybe pop was being an asshole to green because it lights a fire under greens ass and makes him perform better. I think pop as lightened up on green this season and so far he isn't the same green we are used to.
I feel bad for green though. Good thing is simmons is starting to come along nicely, so once green gets out of this slump we have green and simmons contributing.

This was situationally in this game and was due to Danny's lacking defensive effort. He kept loosing his assignment, which had to be picked up by Ray and it ended up in Ray being lit up by Kobe and D.Russell. Pop tried Simmons, who did a better job on him, and from there on Danny didn't see another minute.

I feel for Danny bc it was harsh on National TV, but he is perhaps a guy that as you mention, perhaps needs Pop to be right on him to keep him performing at his best. An engaged Danny is a terrific roleplayer, but he's shown to be lacking focus at times. If he's slumping, he cannot let up defensively.

On the other hand, we should be happy Simmons has been progressing and improving, but we still need Danny to get out of his funk.

[sasaint]

I remember the speculation this summer that Danny had given the Spurs a big hometown discount to resign with them. I also remember seeing a reporter asking him about that during a SL game. Danny replied that he had gotten "paid what he was worth." Just saying'...

[TheGreatYacht]

Hope Danny still has the fire in him, even after getting paid. He's gone thru his usual 5 game cold streaks in the past, but we're now 20+ games in. Don't see the team winning a championship without the Green of old tbh :/

[Ice009]

Danny was absolutely incredible in game 7 against the Clippers last season. He played a monster game after being missing for 3 or 4 games during that series. That Danny Green is unreal on defense and a killer on offense. I really don't know what it takes to keep him performing at a consistent level. Does he really need Pop to get on him, or is it just a severe lack of focus on his part.

If he can't get it together in the short term, as I said earlier in this thread, I would like Simmons to start. Starting Simmons at the very least can help his confidence and then when Danny starts getting back to himself, then we could have 2 very good contributors rather than one.

It's also no secret that I like penetrators that can get to rim and finish or draw the foul, so I am a little biased there. Simmons has two things going for him on offense - He can get to the rim and also pass better than Danny. He just needs to work on and focus on getting better defensively, and at shooting the ball. I really do think his shooting form looks different to what I saw in Summer League and I think it's for the better, so without having access to the team, just by observing his form at the free throw line and the few jumpers he is taking, I think he's really been working hard on his jumper with Chip. Defense is the number one thing though. He really needs to learn and get better on that end of the court. I think he can if Pop gives him some playing time to learn against the better players. If he gets the playing time, then it's all up to Simmons from there. Danny not playing well is a huge opportunity that might not have otherwise been there for him this season, so if Pop gives him the chance, he's got to take it and maximize it.

[Kawhitstorm]

Hope Danny still has the fire in him, even after getting paid. He's gone thru his usual 5 game cold streaks in the past, but we're now 20+ games in. Don't see the team winning a championship without the Green of old tbh :/

Y'all musta forgotten 2013-14 when he had a shitty 2 months then got benched in favor of Marco before he got injured & was out of action for good. He might have been the worst starter on a contender during that period.

[Mikeanaro]

Simmons is like Tony Montana, a guy like that can take you to the top.

[Chinook]

It's relevant b/c it debunked your claimed about him attempting more shot at the rim than he's shooting floaters when he's ACTUALLY attempting as many floaters as layups.

I was never talking about him going to the rim versus shooting floaters. I think your floater argument is generally irrelevant.

[ceperez]

Danny was absolutely incredible in game 7 against the Clippers last season. He played a monster game after being missing for 3 or 4 games during that series. That Danny Green is unreal on defense and a killer on offense. I really don't know what it takes to keep him performing at a consistent level. Does he really need Pop to get on him, or is it just a severe lack of focus on his part.

If he can't get it together in the short term, as I said earlier in this thread, I would like Simmons to start. Starting Simmons at the very least can help his confidence and then when Danny starts getting back to himself, then we could have 2 very good contributors rather than one.

It's also no secret that I like penetrators that can get to rim and finish or draw the foul, so I am a little biased there. Simmons has two things going for him on offense - He can get to the rim and also pass better than Danny. He just needs to work on and focus on getting better defensively, and at shooting the ball. I really do think his shooting form looks different to what I saw in Summer League and I think it's for the better, so without having access to the team, just by observing his form at the free throw line and the few jumpers he is taking, I think he's really been working hard on his jumper with Chip. Defense is the number one thing though. He really needs to learn and get better on that end of the court. I think he can if Pop gives him some playing time to learn against the better players. If he gets the playing time, then it's all up to Simmons from there. Danny not playing well is a huge opportunity that might not have otherwise been there for him this season, so if Pop gives him the chance, he's got to take it and maximize it.

Simmons works well with Leonard so maybe this is a good idea. Also Simmons has good passing skills that is sorely missing with the starters.

Statistically though, Anderson seems to be the guy you can put in the starting lineup and have better results.

Green's problem with the second unit is that he shares the same spot as Patty Mills.

Too many players that are more than capable, Spurs have already an 11 man rotation and that's not including Butler and Marjanovic!!

parker, green, leonard, lma, duncan - manu, mills, anderson, diaw, west - simmons !

[hater]

Did anyone else notice when Simmons got an And 1 they showed Green and he was biting the towel??

:lmao

[SAGirl]

Simmons has two things going for him on offense - He can get to the rim and also pass better than Danny.
You got that right: Those are really the two things he has at the NBA level right now. He's really athletic, which will allow him to get easy baskets, and he can pass well. Both are things Danny is deficient at.

Simmons is not a jumpshooter however, and where I really lose my love for this current version of him is his defense.
He tries, but he cannot negotiate screens. He gets caught every time. I mentioned b4 that quite a few of the screens he ran into against the Raptors were called offensive fouls on the screener, but in reality it was Simms running hard through a screen. He is so athletic and fast that once he has a full head of steam, he can't change directions or negotiate the screen properly. If the referee is not paying attention, the call can go in his favor. However, overtime it won't last and will eventually be called appropriately if he starts games. It will become noticeable that he gets caught up in every screen and thus, he won't get the benefit of 50/50 calls.

The other thing is that defensively he gets lost a lot. He has improved from where he was in preseason, but he's nowhere near Danny's level, when Danny is playing well.

The problem is that Danny is not playing well, and not only is he slumping, but he's been slacking on defense, loosing sight of his own assignment too much.

I believe Pop expects more out of the more experienced guys than from the new guys. Pop will correct both, but he will be much more strict with Danny on defense than he is with Simmons.

Overall, and for the long run, we are not winning a championship with Simmons starting. Danny really needs to get his head out of his shell.

[TrainOfThought5]

I know that Simmons shines brightest as a slasher, but i thought he could shoot at a reasonable clip as well. Certainly better than what Green is giving us at the moment.

[Russo21]

Fingers crossed Green gets his shot back. It's a thing of beauty when he is jacking up 3s and you know it's going to be all net. I like what Simmons has done but I feel it will mess with Green's psych too much if he loses his starting spot. But it's so weird a shooter as good as he is has just lost his shot, we need him to get it back. Taking the starting job off him now will mess with his head too much imo. Also Simmons energy on the bench to go along with Patty, West, Bobo and Boban is contagious. The whole crowd goes nuts when Boban is on the floor and does something good.

[Kawhitstorm]

I was never talking about him going to the rim versus shooting floaters. I think your floater argument is generally irrelevant.

If him shooting floaters is irrelevant then him driving should be irrelevant since he's taking just as many floaters as he's attempting layups. Basically, he sucks in both areas & has nothing to do w/ foul calls (he's simply not getting bailed out).

[wildbill2u]

When Green was re-signed, wasn't there some talk by Pop that he had agreed to lighten up on Green? Maybe that was a mistake.

Green looks like someone told him he had to learn to dribble and go to the basket more. I know I complained that he had the worst handle I've ever seen for a guard in the NBA and many folks on ST were on the same page. Maybe we are to blame for his incredible attempt to change into a slasher into the paint. :-)

If he's a 3 & D guard, he's got to have the D when he goes through a shooting slump. I've never seen a NBA player completely lose his shot ...oh, wait, I forgot about Austin Daye. Nevermind.

[ddjeffries]

Yes. I think Green would also benefit from Patty's quicker penetration. Plus I think Patty may be more lethal from three than Kawhi at the moment. Hopefully that would free up Danny to build some confidence.

[SAGirl]

Just thought I'd share that Pop didn't blow Simmons' play from last night out of proportion.

He said that he thought Simmons really provided a spark in the 3rd Q, but when asked about Danny, he downplayed it and said that he just went with the guy he thought had a chance to help at that particular point in the game. He said some nights it could be some other guy.

I thought Pop wasn't downplaying Simmons' good play, but rather he was diminishing the significance of Danny being benched. Pop has already gone to different guys at times to change the dynamics in games. I remember Boris being benched in a kind of similar situation for Anderson. It didn't mean Bobo was benched to oblivion and neither will Danny.

Hopefully Danny wakes up as I have said repeatedly. It worked for Bobo, since after that stretch, he's been fiery, aggressive and more engaged.

[TD 21]

Just thought I'd share that Pop didn't blow Simmons' play from last night out of proportion.

He said that he thought Simmons really provided a spark in the 3rd Q, but when asked about Danny, he downplayed it and said that he just went with the guy he thought had a chance to help at that particular point in the game. He said some nights it could be some other guy.

I thought Pop wasn't downplaying Simmons' good play, but rather he was diminishing the significance of Danny being benched. Pop has already gone to different guys at times to change the dynamics in games. I remember Boris being benched in a kind of similar situation for Anderson. It didn't mean Bobo was benched to oblivion and neither will Danny.

Hopefully Danny wakes up as I have said repeatedly. It worked for Bobo, since after that stretch, he's been fiery, aggressive and more engaged.

But the difference is, though it may be foolish, they can afford to limit or even bench Diaw on occasion, because of the depth at PF. They have no such luxury at SG. Simmons has potential, but he's erratic and even when he's going good, his game isn't suited to complimenting the other starters.

[DDUBB1770]

In the four losses Danny has played in
Fg 2-9 3's 0-5 +/- -4
3-10 3-8. -17
3-10. 1-5 +5
4-11. 2-7. -11

Pretty bad did not play in loss to Pelicans. I'm all for Danny but that's rotten.
Looked at Pattys numbers in loss also poor so not totally on Danny but one of these guys
Has to shooting well for us to win.

[TrainOfThought5]

In the four losses Danny has played in
Fg 2-9 3's 0-5 +/- -4
3-10 3-8. -17
3-10. 1-5 +5
4-11. 2-7. -11

Pretty bad did not play in loss to Pelicans. I'm all for Danny but that's rotten.
Looked at Pattys numbers in loss also poor so not totally on Danny but one of these guys
Has to shooting well for us to win.

Im confident that JSimms can exceed that production. Start him Pop

[Hoops Czar]

In the four losses Danny has played in
Fg 2-9 3's 0-5 +/- -4
3-10 3-8. -17
3-10. 1-5 +5
4-11. 2-7. -11

Pretty bad did not play in loss to Pelicans. I'm all for Danny but that's rotten.
Looked at Pattys numbers in loss also poor so not totally on Danny but one of these guys
Has to shooting well for us to win.

This data isn't very helpful. Green hasn't been very good in wins either.

[tim_duncan_fan]

Danny plays like shit on offense for at least one lengthy stretch of games every year.

At this point, it's the top that stops spinning so I know I'm in the real world.

3pt% will be 40+ by year's end, per par.

[Mikeanaro]

Danny plays like shit on offense for at least one lengthy stretch of games every year.

At this point, it's the top that stops spinning so I know I'm in the real world.

3pt% will be 40+ by year's end, per par.
He´s been sucking for a whole year, reaching the worst in the Clip series.

[pgardn]

This is looking like another beautiful find.

Good going Mr. Simmons, the hard work is paying off.

[SAGirl]

Well I would not call tonight exactly a benching, since Danny started, but J.Simms played for the longest significant stretches and I can see Pop letting him play through mistakes and coaching him more.

He keeps improving significantly. I liked his defensive effort tonight, and he made corner 3!!!

Danny at least came out of his funk, but in a game where everyone shot the 3 well, it's nothing significant. I can't believe Pop will completely bench Danny, but J.Simms is looking like a real find and he's for sure able to provide things Danny can't.

I am starting to come around to the real possibility that we might see Danny really be benched for Simmons. I should be happy that Simmons is coming around so quickly. I just find it very bittersweet bc of Danny. After all the flak I have given Danny, it really saddens me to see him struggle.

In a post-Manu world though, we needed a better SG, and perhaps it is a growing realization. Right now Danny is in lalaland.

[GSH]

Pop just got asked about putting Simmons in with the starters some.

Pop: "Well, I just wanted to give him a chance... see what it feels like to just play solid, and not show how really good you are. Just play solid, and how good you are will come out eventually."

[steeledl]

Pop just got asked about putting Simmons in with the starters some.

Pop: "Well, I just wanted to give him a chance... see what it feels like to just play solid, and not show how really good you are. Just play solid, and how good you are will come out eventually."


Thats is mad respect coming from pop.

[SAGirl]

Pop just got asked about putting Simmons in with the starters some.

Pop: "Well, I just wanted to give him a chance... see what it feels like to just play solid, and not show how really good you are. Just play solid, and how good you are will come out eventually."
How do you interpret that?

I interpret it to mean, that he wanted to put J.Simms in a situation where he didn't have to come in and play to show how good he can be, whether he could play a subdued game as a roleplayer basically. Since he's had to show off his game in Summer League and preseason, and then in garbage time to show Pop that he could play at this level, Pop was intrigued enough to want to see whether he can take a backseat and play off others well.

I think he aced that test.

[steeledl]

How do you interpret that?

I interpret it to mean, that he wanted to put J.Simms in a situation where he didn't have to come in and play to show how good he can be, whether he could play a subdued game as a roleplayer basically. Since he's had to show off his game in Summer League and preseason, and then in garbage time to show Pop that he could play at this level, Pop was intrigued enough to want to see whether he can take a backseat and play off others well.

I think he aced that test.


exactly how I interpreted it .

[GSH]

Thats is mad respect coming from pop.


How do you interpret that?

I interpret it to mean, that he wanted to put J.Simms in a situation where he didn't have to come in and play to show how good he can be


Seemed to me that he was making a statement that he believes in Simmons, and that he belongs in the NBA. Letting him know that he doesn't have to come in and press to try and make the team. That he's good enough to just play solid and be part of the team right now. If the reporter was trying to get Pop to say it's because Green hasn't been scoring, Pop didn't bite. No sense speculating - the minutes Pop gives will tell the story.

For a guy like Simmons who has come up the hard way, getting that vote of confidence from Pop has to feel good. I thought he looked really, really bad in pre-season, but he's definitely showing us why the Spurs decided to keep him on the roster.

[SAGirl]

I thought he looked really, really bad in pre-season, but he's definitely showing us why the Spurs decided to keep him on the roster.
I agree with you on this. I really liked him since SL, and I watched a lot of him with Anderson in the Dleague, so I liked him from before, but the TO specifically, and other things that have already been mentioned elsewhere made me question whether he could play at this level.

Moreover, I was really angry and disappointed that he played so poorly in preseason. There is a thread I started reviewing an awful game he had in preseason in which I was basically angry lol at him bc he had played so poorly that honestly at that point, he looked really doubtful to even make the team. At the time he gave an interview about how the pressure of trying to make the team had affected his play and he dismissed it, but I really thought it was a factor.

I doubt you want to read that enlightened piece so I will spare you. But I trust coach Pop and the Spurs. Rightfully so, they give a chance to younger guys that work hard and maybe they don't look like much initially but they see something they can harvest.

I suspect there is something there with Anderson too. Otherwise he would not have been extended, and as up and down as he's been in production, he's also had moments where he's belonged out there. Anyways, thanks for sharing your view.
:bobo

[Xevious]

Spurs are the best defensive team in the league right now. They're four games behind GS who has had a historic start, and four games ahead of OKC. People need to chill the fuck out with the overreactions when it comes to LMA and Green. Green's defense is needed in the starting lineup and Aldridge is doing fine, and will only improve. Plenty of time for these guys to get into a rhythm before the playoffs.

[GSH]

Spurs are the best defensive team in the league right now. They're four games behind GS who has had a historic start, and four games ahead of OKC. People need to chill the fuck out with the overreactions when it comes to LMA and Green. Green's defense is needed in the starting lineup and Aldridge is doing fine, and will only improve. Plenty of time for these guys to get into a rhythm before the playoffs.

Danny has only shot above .333 in 6 out of 25 games, and he's basically got the same number of turnovers as 3-pointers. I think it would be kind of ridiculous of people didn't start wondering about him.

I'm not going to write a page about this part - you'll either understand or you won't - but Danny's inability to make shots puts a lot of extra wear and tear on the other four starters. Both in terms of the extra attention they get, as well as the extra minutes they have to spend on the floor in close games that shouldn't be close. Danny's got time to get it together, but it's beginning to be a legitimate problem.

[steeledl]

/.

[Xevious]

Simmons will get exposed on both ends of the floor in the starting lineup, causing just as much of a problem. The schedule has been soft and our point differential has been high enough that "wear and tear" isn't really an issue yet. Danny has time to get it together, and yanking him from his spot might screw up his rhythm even more. We're going to need him playing well come playoff time. If that doesn't happen, it really doesn't matter who starts.

[SAGirl]

Danny has only shot above .333 in 6 out of 25 games, and he's basically got the same number of turnovers as 3-pointers. I think it would be kind of ridiculous of people didn't start wondering about him.

I'm not going to write a page about this part - you'll either understand or you won't - but Danny's inability to make shots puts a lot of extra wear and tear on the other four starters. Both in terms of the extra attention they get, as well as the extra minutes they have to spend on the floor in close games that shouldn't be close. Danny's got time to get it together, but it's beginning to be a legitimate problem.

Very reasonable point of view and I agree with you.

[ceperez]

Danny has only shot above .333 in 6 out of 25 games, and he's basically got the same number of turnovers as 3-pointers. I think it would be kind of ridiculous of people didn't start wondering about him.

I'm not going to write a page about this part - you'll either understand or you won't - but Danny's inability to make shots puts a lot of extra wear and tear on the other four starters. Both in terms of the extra attention they get, as well as the extra minutes they have to spend on the floor in close games that shouldn't be close. Danny's got time to get it together, but it's beginning to be a legitimate problem.

Disagree about the bolded statement. Danny isn't making, but he's also not taking a lot of shots. Who knows if this is by design by Pop.

[GSH]

Danny has only shot above .333 in 6 out of 25 games, and he's basically got the same number of turnovers as 3-pointers. I think it would be kind of ridiculous of people didn't start wondering about him.

I'm not going to write a page about this part - you'll either understand or you won't


Disagree about the bolded statement. Danny isn't making, but he's also not taking a lot of shots. Who knows if this is by design by Pop.

Then focus on the bolded statement above. You don't understand, and that's to be expected.

Pretty sure it's not by design for defenders to be able to leave Danny to help defend other players. Just a hunch.

[ceperez]

Then focus on the bolded statement above. You don't understand, and that's to be expected.

Pretty sure it's not by design for defenders to be able to leave Danny to help defend other players. Just a hunch.

I am saying that Danny's performance is not putting a lot of wear and tear on the other 4 starters. The starters have been coasting, it isn't like they are increasing their effort when Danny misses. Besides, Danny doesn't take a lot of shots lately.

[hater]

We are 1/4 into the season. Of course One Trick Pony Green sucking dick all along is worrysome. Dude might be finished

[SAGirl]

I am saying that Danny's performance is not putting a lot of wear and tear on the other 4 starters. The starters have been coasting, it isn't like they are increasing their effort when Danny misses. Besides, Danny doesn't take a lot of shots lately.


Then focus on the bolded statement above. You don't understand, and that's to be expected.

Pretty sure it's not by design for defenders to be able to leave Danny to help defend other players. Just a hunch.
It just means he isn't contributing. He's neither shooting the 3 at his usual efficient rate, nor is he doing anything productive with the ball when he gets it because despite all th layup passes he get from Tim and easy shots he's getting he shooting poorly generally.
When you add to that his TO and th Danny drives... He's really been the worse of our regular rotation players. I totally see what GSH is saying.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

We are 1/4 into the season. Of course One Trick Pony Green sucking dick all along is worrysome. Dude might be finished

Green isn't finished he had a decent game the other night. Green needs to go back to running off of screens to get open. He is a very poor man's Rich Hamilton. But that is when Green is at his best. Running off a screens and making his defender work without him having the ball. The Spurs have gone away from this so far this year. Perhaps Pop was wanting to see if Green could expand his game.

But the simple truth, Green is only a 3 and D player, nothing more. He does not have Elite NBA athleticism or an Elite NBA IQ. Green is just a role player and that is his ceiling in the NBA.

[ceperez]

But the simple truth, Green is only a 3 and D player, nothing more. He does not have Elite NBA athleticism or an Elite NBA IQ. Green is just a role player and that is his ceiling in the NBA.

He's a Bruce Bowen. He's going to be on the court for his defense. If he hits a 3, it's all gravy.

People keeps saying that he's finished... as long as he can defend, he'll always be on the court. Even if he scores zero, his mere presence spaces the floor on offense. No team is going to double dare him to shoot wide open.

[DJR210]

Fucking fat fuck, if he didn't spend his offseason getting fat as hell this would have never happened.

http://www.mensfitness.com/sites/mensfitness.com/files/dished-danny-green-main.jpeg

[G-Dawgg]

We've said in the past that players like Carmelo and Harden only play half the game because they don't play defense and only score, well...Danny Green is only helping in half of the game right now by only doing well on defense. Simmons should play more and steal Danny's court time. Simmons is more useful right now because in addition to his defense being very good, he also has more tools on offense than Danny. Green is completely useless on offense when he can't hit a three.. Danny better get his 3 point shot together because already as it stands it's no coincedence that Simmons is getting more court time and Danny is playing less than usual...

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

He's a Bruce Bowen. He's going to be on the court for his defense. If he hits a 3, it's all gravy.


No he's got to hit the 3 consistently. Bruce Bowen types don't work in 2015 NBA. Danny still contributes with his gravity but if his slump continues and defenders start sagging off he'll have to punish them. If he can't he'll sit.

[cjw]

http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/12/15/whats-danny-greens-jumper/

Good piece on Green's 3 point shooting. Essentially, author argues a dropoff like this is a statistical outlier (would happen 1% of time) and should revert to mean over time.

[DAF86]

Simmons needs to stop passing up on wide open threes if he wants to be a part of the rotation come playoffs time.

[LaMarcus Bryant]

We've said in the past that players like Carmelo and Harden only play half the game because they don't play defense and only score, well...Danny Green is only helping in half of the game right now by only doing well on defense. Simmons should play more and steal Danny's court time. Simmons is more useful right now because in addition to his defense being very good, he also has more tools on offense than Danny. Green is completely useless on offense when he can't hit a three.. Danny better get his 3 point shot together because already as it stands it's no coincedence that Simmons is getting more court time and Danny is playing less than usual...

Simmons does not play very good defense wtf
He mediocre at best

[SAGirl]

Danny's 3 pt shooting watch:

Danny still shooting 29% on 3s. After he got hot against ATL, proceeded to get back to cold again against Utah. He played well in all other facets of his game, so his 3 pt. shooting was not needed.

It's possible at this point, he needs a string of hot games to turn that S % up.

[BillMc]

http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/12/15/whats-danny-greens-jumper/

Good piece on Green's 3 point shooting. Essentially, author argues a dropoff like this is a statistical outlier (would happen 1% of time) and should revert to mean over time.

Nice read. Thanks for posting.

[callo1]

I doubt we see Simmons start over Danny in a meaningful game but...Pop is Pop, you never know. I could see Pop sending a message to Danny by starting Simmons against certain teams.

I think Simmons is best to have on the court when an extra ball handler is needed. Simmons can put the ball on the floor and get his own shot, something that isn't Green's strong point. I am just excited that the Spurs seem to be getting even more versatile, as it will undoubtedly pay off throughout the season.

Spacing and screen setting account for some of the problems Green is having shooting 3's early this season. The addition of LA has changed the spacing significantly, and Lamarcus is not as good of a screen setter at this point as Tiago was. I expect this will all work itself out by March.

[ceperez]

The lane is already clogged with LMA, Duncan and even Leonard. A drive and dish player like Simmons will see nowhere to drive. The only lineup that makes sense would be for Simmons to replace Tony.

The defense will be much better but there's a big drop off in ball handling.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

The lane is already clogged with LMA, Duncan and even Leonard. A drive and dish player like Simmons will see nowhere to drive. The only lineup that makes sense would be for Simmons to replace Tony.

The defense will be much better but there's a big drop off in ball handling.

Simmons in place of Tony makes no sense, including defensively. He can't guard a school girl if a screen is set, he'll get lit up like a christmas tree. He's also not a drive and dish player. There are no dishes in his drives. He's a downhill rolling snowball.

[Chinook]

Simmons in place of Tony makes no sense, including defensively. He can't guard a school girl if a screen is set, he'll get lit up like a christmas tree. He's also not a drive and dish player. There are no dishes in his drives. He's a downhill rolling snowball.

I agree about the defense part. Simmons has great defensive energy, and he has the athleticism to keep up with PGs, but his technique and discipline are not up to snuff yet. He's not an upgrade to Parker defensively.

I think you're selling Simmons short on offense, though. He is a pass-first guy, and he has shown that this season. If he gets into the lane and can create an good look from someone, he'll do it readily. The only thing that might be holding him back is chemistry -- he may not have enough experience with guys to know where they're going to be at any given time. That makes finding teammates much harder.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Simmons in place of Tony makes no sense, including defensively. He can't guard a school girl if a screen is set, he'll get lit up like a christmas tree. He's also not a drive and dish player. There are no dishes in his drives. He's a downhill rolling snowball.

I would have to disagree on this. In the preseason he wasn't. But he has really improved his technique off his drive. He had 4 ast the other night for a reason.

But replacing Simmons with Parker is absurd. Parker and Manu wouldn't work coming off the bench. Simmons and Manu do as Manu is probably the best passer on the team when finding cutting players. A lineup of Mills, Simmons, Manu, West (Boban), Diaw (Anderson) is a great combo to have coming off the bench. The Spurs are destroying teams right now and people want to rock the boat.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I agree about the defense part. Simmons has great defensive energy, and he has the athleticism to keep up with PGs, but his technique and discipline are not up to snuff yet. He's not an upgrade to Parker defensively.

I think you're selling Simmons short on offense, though. He is a pass-first guy, and he has shown that this season. If he gets into the lane and can create an good look from someone, he'll do it readily. The only thing that might be holding him back is chemistry -- he may not have enough experience with guys to know where they're going to be at any given time. That makes finding teammates much harder.

I'm genuinely surprised you're so high on Simmons as an NBA player. I see no chance Pop would allow a rookie to initiate offense by driving and kicking outside of garbage time. Hell it took him 4 years to give the rock to Kawhi.

Hope you're right though, but I see his absolutele max potential as a Will Barton type. Which is not bad at all IMO.

[Chinook]

I'm genuinely surprised you're so high on Simmons as an NBA player. I see no chance Pop would allow a rookie to initiate offense by driving and kicking outside of garbage time. Hell it took him 4 years to give the rock to Kawhi.

Hope you're right though, but I see his absolutele max potential as a Will Barton type. Which is not bad at all IMO.

I feel like you misinterpreted my post. I'm talking about Simmons' tendencies, not his prognosis. Simmons' is a drive-and-kick guy because he looks to suck in the defense and pass to the open man. That's just who he is, and as he and his teammates figure each other out more he'll know where to hit them for passes without having to search for them.

That doesn't mean that I see him running the offense consistently for any unit in the future. Pop seems like a big believer in Jonathon, but he still picks Anderson to be the de facto PG when they run with no-PG lineups or in end-of-quarter situations. I think Simmons projects to be the secondary penetrator for the bench. He's never going to be the PG, but he'll get some opportunities to create after the defenses are already moving.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I feel like you misinterpreted my post. I'm talking about Simmons' tendencies, not his prognosis. Simmons' is a drive-and-kick guy because he looks to suck in the defense and pass to the open man. That's just who he is, and as he and his teammates figure each other out more he'll know where to hit them for passes without having to search for them.

That doesn't mean that I see him running the offense consistently for any unit in the future. Pop seems like a big believer in Jonathon, but he still picks Anderson to be the de facto PG when they run with no-PG lineups or in end-of-quarter situations. I think Simmons projects to be the secondary penetrator for the bench. He's never going to be the PG, but he'll get some opportunities to create after the defenses are already moving.

Oh I absolutely agree with you re Simmons' projections. I think the misunderstanding came from the original post I quoted, which suggested that he could replace Tony directly.

[ceperez]

Oh I absolutely agree with you re Simmons' projections. I think the misunderstanding came from the original post I quoted, which suggested that he could replace Tony directly.

The entire thread has an absurd suggestion of replacing Green with Simmons. I just suggested a less absurd suggestion of replacing Tony with Simmons. I'm not going to disagree that its absurd, but maybe for certain defensive situations, then a quicker taller guard may be better than having Tony in the play.

[Mel_13]

The entire thread has an absurd suggestion of replacing Green with Simmons. I just suggested a less absurd suggestion of replacing Tony with Simmons.

Nope. Simmons replacing Tony is far more absurd than Simmons replacing Green.

[ceperez]

I feel like you misinterpreted my post. I'm talking about Simmons' tendencies, not his prognosis. Simmons' is a drive-and-kick guy because he looks to suck in the defense and pass to the open man. That's just who he is, and as he and his teammates figure each other out more he'll know where to hit them for passes without having to search for them.

That doesn't mean that I see him running the offense consistently for any unit in the future. Pop seems like a big believer in Jonathon, but he still picks Anderson to be the de facto PG when they run with no-PG lineups or in end-of-quarter situations. I think Simmons projects to be the secondary penetrator for the bench. He's never going to be the PG, but he'll get some opportunities to create after the defenses are already moving.

I agree, Simmons is a drive and kick guy. Why some folks don't see that tells me they haven't seen him play enough.

I like the idea of no-PG (or rather, no Parker/Mills) lineups because they plug holes in the defense. So if Parker or Mills is subbed, who takes their place? Either Manu, Simmons or Anderson.

Manu, Green, Leonard, LMA, Duncan <--- best defensive five
Simmons, Manu, Anderson, Diaw, Boban <-- best defensive second team

[ceperez]

Nope. Simmons replacing Tony is far more absurd than Simmons replacing Green.

I disagree.

Simmons doesn't improve on Green defensive. Simmons doesn't spread the court as well as Green. Simmons has a clogged paint. You can't find a single case where replacing Green with Simmons makes sense.

in contrast

Simmons improves on Parker defensively. So just in one special case it is better.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Simmons improves on Parker defensively. So just in one special case it is better.

Absolutely not.

[Chinook]

Oh I absolutely agree with you re Simmons' projections. I think the misunderstanding came from the original post I quoted, which suggested that he could replace Tony directly.

That makes sense. I just assumed that everyone but ceperez knew that Simmons replacing Parker was a bad idea and that I didn't have to even refute it.

[Mel_13]

Simmons improves on Parker defensively.

There is absolutely zero evidence to support the assertion that Simmons could defend NBA PGs better than Parker. Certainly not enough to overcome the massive decrease in playmaking skills on the offensive side.

[ceperez]

There is absolutely zero evidence to support the assertion that Simmons could defend NBA PGs better than Parker. Certainly not enough to overcome the massive decrease in playmaking skills on the offensive side.

Well there isn't any numbers at this time. I'm basing my suggestion on having a 6'6" over a 6'2" player in defense.

Besides, Simmons is being groomed to play defense. He's not in the court to be an option in offense.

I'm also only talking about a special case in a defense situation (which you conveniently ignored to make your case).

[Chinook]

ChumpDumper or SAGirl, was Simmons even an exception d-league defender? I can see he tries hard, but I don't look at him as a plus on that end at all yet.

[ceperez]

ChumpDumper or SAGirl, was Simmons even an exception d-league defender? I can see he tries hard, but I don't look at him as a plus on that end at all yet.

The guy was tasked on defending Kobe (granted Kobe isn't close to his former self). Still you don't see Parker being assigned to guard a 6'7" player like Kobe.

The reason why Simmons gets to play is because of his better defense relative to a guy like Ray McCallum. He isn't on the court because the Spurs need more offense.

Heck, the entire suggestion of this thread is that Simmons defends as well as Green. Which obviously isn't remotely true.

[Mel_13]

Well there isn't any numbers at this time. I'm basing my suggestion on having a 6'6" over a 6'2" player in defense.

Besides, Simmons is being groomed to play defense. He's not in the court to be an option in offense.

I'm also only talking about a special case in a defense situation (which you conveniently ignored to make your case).

:lol

You keep moving those goalposts. Eventually, you'll get one to go through.

[dabom]

ChumpDumper (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=153) or SAGirl (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49524), was Simmons even an exception d-league defender? I can see he tries hard, but I don't look at him as a plus on that end at all yet.

Simmons is a trash defender now. Can't even stay in front of his man one on one. Too late to get better that he is 27. The Spurs bigs and team defense bail him out though.

[ceperez]

:lol

You keep moving those goalposts. Eventually, you'll get one to go through.

You don't have any argument to stand on other than 'I don't have any data'. :lol

[ceperez]

Simmons is a trash defender now. Can't even stay in front of his man one on one. Too late to get better that he is 27. The Spurs bigs and team defense bail him out though.

I'll quote that for posterity. Remind me to bring it up in the future.

[Chinook]

The guy was tasked on defending Kobe (granted Kobe isn't close to his former self). Still you don't see Parker being assigned to guard a 6'7" player like Kobe.

The reason why Simmons gets to play is because of his better defense relative to a guy like Ray McCallum. He isn't on the court because the Spurs need more offense.

Heck, the entire suggestion of this thread is that Simmons defends as well as Green. Which obviously isn't remotely true.

I really think #ceperez should become a thing.

[dabom]

Absolutely not.

I don't agree with what that guy says much but Simmons is a better rebounder than parker. And their man to man defense is about the same. Any 5 man team would get better defensively if your options are simmons over parker.

[Mel_13]

You don't have any argument to stand on other than 'I don't have any data'. :lol

:lol

Having no data to support your assertions is a serious, even fatal, flaw in your assertions. That you think otherwise is telling.

[benefactor]

I'm really starting to think ceperez is timvp's troll. I used to think kobyz was but ceperez seems to fit a little better.

[dabom]

I'll quote that for posterity. Remind me to bring it up in the future.

I'm not usually wrong. Whether he has a great defensive play or not, his overall defense is not good.

[ceperez]

:lol

Having no data to support your assertions is a serious, even fatal, flaw in your assertions. That you think otherwise is telling.

Last game... Simmons with 2 steals. He can't defend?

[ceperez]

I'm not usually wrong. Whether he has a great defensive play or not, his overall defense is not good.

You got some stats to back you up?

[dabom]

You don't have any argument to stand on other than 'I don't have any data'. :lol

We don't need data. Any 5 man rotation gets better defensively between parker and simmons.

[ceperez]

I don't agree with what that guy says much but Simmons is a better rebounder than parker. And their man to man defense is about the same. Any 5 man team would get better defensively if your options are simmons over parker.

That's what I'm saying, in the starter roster, subbing Simmons over Parker makes for a better defensive team. You have to be digging into some unknown stats to not make that conclusion.

[dabom]

You got some stats to back you up?

I watch the games. Players blow by him in a good rate. No pick necessary either.

[ceperez]

I watch the games. Players blow by him in a good rate. No pick necessary either.

Players blow by Parker all the time too.

[dabom]

Simmons could also box out better than parker too.

[Mel_13]

Last game... Simmons with 2 steals. He can't defend?

1. Two steals doesn't prove anything about his defense.

2. I never said he couldn't defend. Typical strawman.

3. Keep moving those goalposts. You're bound to make one eventually.

[dabom]

Players blow by Parker all the time too.

I'm not comparing Parker and Simmons here. I'm comparing him to average basketball defense.

[ceperez]

Simmons could also box out better than parker too.

6'6" player vs 6'2" and you keep insisting there isn't an advantage?

[ceperez]

I'm not comparing Parker and Simmons here. I'm comparing him to average basketball defense.

But that's what we are comparing. Does it make sense to sub Simmons for Parker defensively in the starting lineup?

[dabom]

6'6" player vs 6'2" and you keep insisting there isn't an advantage?

2 points I'm making.

1 Simmons is not a good defender.

2 He is a better option than Tony for defense. Not that it would work on offense but he would be a better defender than tony.

[ceperez]

BTW... in case you guys aren't confused, we are talking about Jonathon Simmons here and not Kyle Anderson.

[ceperez]

2 points I'm making.

1 Simmons is not a good defender.

2 He is a better option than Tony for defense. Not that it would work on offense but he would be a better defender than tony.

I'm only making the case for #2. I think #1 is still a work in progress.

There you go Mel_13... another data point that says you are wrong.

[dabom]

But that's what we are comparing. Does it make sense to sub Simmons for Parker defensively in the starting lineup?

For one defensive stop yeah. Like end of the quarter type processions followed with timeouts because I'm not so sure how it would work on offense.

[Chinook]

Holy shit ceperez shut the fuck up

One of my favorite posts from the Jimmer thread.

[Mel_13]

Does it make sense to sub Simmons for Parker defensively in the starting lineup?

Asked and answered.

[ceperez]

For one defensive stop yeah. Like end of the quarter type processions followed with timeouts because I'm not so sure how it would work on offense.

That's what I'm saying.

I doubt we will ever see this. Pop wouldn't even sub Parker out even if Green was sitting on the bench.

[Mel_13]

I'm only making the case for #2. I think #1 is still a work in progress.

There you go Mel_13... another data point that says you are wrong.

:lol

Dabom's opinion isn't a data point, it's his opinion.

That you don't know what a data point is also speaks volumes.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Guys, really, Simmons in the Starting lineup. So who is going to handle the ball. Simmons is not James Harden. Parker has played very well defensively of late.

The offensive efficiency would drop much more than the defensive efficiency gained from subbing Simmons for Parker. If you going to take Parker out, you are going to having replace Green with Manu as well because of this very reason. Simmons can create but can he RUN AN OFFENSE, absolutely not at this point. He has quite a ways to go before he can do that. And Quite honestly I don't think he ever will be a guy that can consistently do so. That is why he pairs so well with KA who can run the offense.

[Chinook]

:lol

Dabom's opinion isn't a data point, it's his opinion.

That you don't know what a data point is also speaks volumes.

You're talking to a guy who said this:


Fair enough criteria (i.e. "who could've Spurs drafted instead").

[dabom]

:lol

Dabom's opinion isn't a data point, it's his opinion.

That you don't know what a data point is also speaks volumes.

I consider myself a data point.

[dabom]

Guys, really, Simmons in the Starting lineup. So who is going to handle the ball. Simmons is not James Harden. Parker has played very well defensively of late.

The offensive efficiency would drop much more than the defensive efficiency gained from subbing Simmons for Parker. If you going to take Parker out, you are going to having replace Green with Manu as well because of this very reason. Simmons can create but can he RUN AN OFFENSE, absolutely not at this point. He has quite a ways to go before he can do that. And Quite honestly I don't think he ever will be a guy that can consistently do so. That is why he pairs so well with KA who can run the offense.

The guy was making a case for a late quarter/end of the game type situations for a "possession" on the defensive side.

[ceperez]

:lol

Dabom's opinion isn't a data point, it's his opinion.

That you don't know what a data point is also speaks volumes.

Not seeing that as a joke speaks volumes of your hubris.

[ceperez]

Guys, really, Simmons in the Starting lineup. So who is going to handle the ball. Simmons is not James Harden. Parker has played very well defensively of late.

The offensive efficiency would drop much more than the defensive efficiency gained from subbing Simmons for Parker. If you going to take Parker out, you are going to having replace Green with Manu as well because of this very reason. Simmons can create but can he RUN AN OFFENSE, absolutely not at this point. He has quite a ways to go before he can do that. And Quite honestly I don't think he ever will be a guy that can consistently do so. That is why he pairs so well with KA who can run the offense.

That's a second data point ... Mel_13. Where are your data points?

:lol:lol:lol:lol:lol

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

The guy was making a case for a late quarter/end of the game type situations for a "possession" on the defensive side.

I was just going to respond to that. No, at first he was implying of STARTING Simmons over Parker. Yes Starting means you are on the floor at the opening TIP-OFF. I agree that Simmons can sub Parker for Late game, Late Quarters situational plays, where a more athletic, longer defender would give guys like Waiters and Westbrooks more fit, as you saw Parker get scorched by both last time he went up against them.

But the topic switched from STARTING Simmons for Green to Starting in place of Parker, HELL NO.

[Mel_13]

I consider myself a data point.

:bobo

[Mel_13]

That's a second data point ... Mel_13. Where are your data points?

If you keep digging, you'll never get out of the hole.

[dabom]

:bobo

:toast

[Chinook]

If you keep digging, you'll never get out of the hole.

Planning on hopping out in Beijing.

[ceperez]

If you keep digging, you'll never get out of the hole.

Argument won, final score: 2-0. Time to move on. :bobo

[Mel_13]

Argument won, final score: 2-0. Time to move on. :bobo

Declare victory and leave? Not as satisfying as actually winning a debate, but it's the best you'll ever do.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

I don't agree with what that guy says much but Simmons is a better rebounder than parker. And their man to man defense is about the same. Any 5 man team would get better defensively if your options are simmons over parker.


We don't need data. Any 5 man rotation gets better defensively between parker and simmons.

The 3 5-man units in which Simmons has logged most minutes have some of the worst defensive ratings on the Spurs. Per NBA.com.

The Duncan-Aldridge-Kawhi-Green-Simmons unit has logged 0 minutes together. It'll probably stay this way throughout the season. This is likely because Pop doesn't think it'd be great. If there's some hidden unknown potential then it's likely lost on the Spurs staff at this point.

[WaywardTexan]

Planning on hopping out in Beijing.

Very likely you'll soon be able to watch Fredette play there, in person. As predicted by your preseason assessment of his NBA prospects.

[ChumpDumper]

CROFL data points.

Simmons is a wildly inconsistent defender. There is nothing to suggest he would be better at guarding NBA point guards any better than Parker -- or Mills or McCallum for that matter.

I really like the guy but he has a lot to learn before he replaces anyone on this team.

[dabom]

The 3 5-man units in which Simmons has logged most minutes have some of the worst defensive ratings on the Spurs. Per NBA.com.

The Duncan-Aldridge-Kawhi-Green-Simmons unit has logged 0 minutes together. It'll probably stay this way throughout the season. This is likely because Pop doesn't think it'd be great. If there's some hidden unknown potential then it's likely lost on the Spurs staff at this point.

You can't compare players that play mostly with the bench to players that play mostly with the starters especially one that has limited amount of minutes.

[dabom]

RPM for defense

tony -0.95
simmons -0.69

Kinda around what I thought.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

RPM for defense

tony -0.95
simmons -0.69


You're a +/- guy now? :lol


You can't compare players that play mostly with the bench to players that play mostly with the starters.

Indeed.

[Embedded]

I wonder if Danny Green is being made to put the ball on the floor more by the coaching staff, as an experiment to help his psyche over the course of the season, and to reduce teams running him off the 3 point line as a tactic. It means he is thinking more when he does shoot, with the results we're seeing. I think we need him in the starting squad against Curry, etc.

[dabom]

You're a +/- guy now? :lol



Indeed.

You guys need to understand the difference between a plus/minus and realplus/minus.

I don't care for a single game plus/minus. I do care for realplus/minus. Totally different things. :lol

[Agloco]

CROFL data points.

Simmons is a wildly inconsistent defender. There is nothing to suggest he would be better at guarding NBA point guards any better than Parker -- or Mills or McCallum for that matter.

I really like the guy but he has a lot to learn before he replaces anyone on this team.

This

[SAGirl]

ChumpDumper (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=153) or SAGirl (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=49524), was Simmons even an exception d-league defender? I can see he tries hard, but I don't look at him as a plus on that end at all yet.

He had a number of blocks in transition. That kind of play is highlight reel worthy bc dleague teams run a whole lot, so when you see a guy running and catching up to someone to block a transition layup it stays with you. He also could stay in front of guys one on one and not get blown by, which in the dleague stands out bc there are so many guys who are less than adequate. I believe that is what got him on the all defensive 3rd team.

Where he had trouble is with negotiating screens and not helping out at times. He also fouled reaching in too much. However, he put in effort on the defensive end, there is no question. At the NBA level it's a different animal. I thought he was fouling too much being overaggressive, he was out of position at times and was hit with backcuts or lost sight of his man early in preseason and in his first few games.

His awareness has increased, but I think he still fouls too much reaching in for steals, which listen, he doesn't have long arms, he's stocky. He has to get so close to steal from someone, that it is more likely to end up as a foul than not.

I would say Simmons is going through the rookie adjustments from one league to another.

At this point I see him strictly as a SG, though Pop is likely to play him at both wing positions, but mostly bc he lacks length to really contest the shots of true SF in the league and thus he reaches for steals or fouls. Ex. Marcus Morris in the Pistons game preseason posted up and drew fouls on Simmons repeatedly, Middleton posted him up repeatedly with success and got fouled once. Derozan scored Simms with ease and drew fouls.

He just doesn't have the length to bother some guys and then gets overaggressive getting physical or trying to reach in for steals.

For that reason I see him more taking SG and maybe PG, but at this point Pop is going to test guys with different guys, to find out who they can really do a good job against. We have also seen Kyle against quickie, small guards even though that is not his strength. It's likely we will see both guys guarding a range of perimeter players. Ideally though, Simmons is on guards due to his size and length. Kyle can deal with your taller perimeter players, SF and even small ball 4 who like to shoot and are unlikely to post him up.

My worst criticism of Simms at this point is that he gets caught on screens every time. I have yet to see him negotiate screens adequately. He just runs into them and gets suck, or he runs through the screener. Sometimes its called as a fould on him, often Refs have called moving screens but it's really Simms getting caught IMO and if he starts to get a lot of playing time the ref whistles to bail him out will stop. Just something for him to work on.

[Obstructed_View]

I wonder if Danny Green is being made to put the ball on the floor more by the coaching staff, as an experiment to help his psyche over the course of the season, and to reduce teams running him off the 3 point line as a tactic. It means he is thinking more when he does shoot, with the results we're seeing. I think we need him in the starting squad against Curry, etc.

Danny practices the pumpfake and drive, which is how he punishes guys for not being in control when they close out. He does it a lot more this year because he doesn't have as much space to shoot as he has in the past, and because his shots are fewer and further between, I think he's thinking about them more, which he needs to work through. The offense, being a work in progress, will have to figure out how to get him his shots in his spots more consistently after they get more important things worked out.

[mookie2001]

lets face it because Danny is totally one dimensional on offense, when it's almost January and you've shot 30% and you've been healthy all year, that's a failure.

yes he's an excellent team defender but he doesn't punish anyone. He's not a physical player. Let's let Simmons give up his body and get to the line. Encourage him to make his fouls count and make his man work on defense. Let's try to wear down the other team in the second and third quarters so Kawhi can ballhawk and take advantage of sloppy play.


At the least its a decent experiment to see if Manu can get Danny even more open looks with be second team and to see what Simmons might be able to contribute in the playoffs.

[steeledl]

Simmons needs to improve a lot on defense.... He has the skills and the will to be a good defender but he gets lost still in the scheme and needs to get better on guarding NBA Pnr.... These are certainly things he will improve on as he gets more NBA coaching/ playing time......not worried about it at the moment..... If he is still struggling with these things in April I'll be concerned.



Eventually I think he will be a fine defender.

[ceperez]

lets face it because Danny is totally one dimensional on offense, when it's almost January and you've shot 30% and you've been healthy all year, that's a failure.

yes he's an excellent team defender but he doesn't punish anyone. He's not a physical player. Let's let Simmons give up his body and get to the line. Encourage him to make his fouls count and make his man work on defense. Let's try to wear down the other team in the second and third quarters so Kawhi can ballhawk and take advantage of sloppy play.


At the least its a decent experiment to see if Manu can get Danny even more open looks with be second team and to see what Simmons might be able to contribute in the playoffs.

As I wrote earlier, my problem with Simmons with the starters is that the lane is clogged up by the 2 bigs and Leonard. There's no room to slash.

I do understand your comment about someone in the starting crew dishing out some punishment. Simmons is really good a wearing out the other man.

I seriously like the idea of Spurs players physically dishing out punishment on a opponents defense. Hope to Pop insert Boban just to make the opponent work in defense.

[PublicOption]

Simmons is a defensive player first. That's why he is getting so much PT.

[ceperez]

Simmons is a defensive player first. That's why he is getting so much PT.

Exactly! Absolutely obvious. I don't know what everyone else is smoking!

[G-Dawgg]

Simmons does not play very good defense wtf
He mediocre at best

Dude, then you're watching a totally different player than me, because I think he d's up pretty good. He's got the athleticism and puts in the effort to make whoever he's guarding work hard. There are a few things he can work on, and his defense is not nearly a good as Green's, however I would say it's far from mediocre.
According to this article, I'm not the only one who thinks so..
http://www.expressnews.com/sports/spurs/article/Ex-D-Leaguer-Simmons-could-be-Spurs-latest-find-6700155.php?t=9094fa2a492d61fda3&cmpid=email-premium