Offense shifting away from Kawhi post-ups

[FkLA]

and becoming more Enrique-centered. I know he's been playing better but is this a good thing? I kinda miss the days when people were complaining that the offense was too iso-oriented with Kawhi/LMA tbh.

I'd rather go down on the backs of two stars in their prime instead of overelying on a 33 yr old PG.

[apalisoc_9]

and becoming more Enrique-centered. I know he's been playing better but is this a good thing? I kinda miss the days when people were complaining that the offense was too iso-oriented with Kawhi/LMA tbh.

Im telling you bro..its getting on Pakrers head. Kawhi is slowly getting relegated to stay in the corner im going to run a set for me

[apalisoc_9]

Marg Bar PARKER!

Marg BAR.

POS needs to be tossed at a river or something.

[dabom]

We ain't going to win without Kawhi ISOs. Someone tell Pop Kawhi is money from there. :lmao

[ElNono]

Kawhi played limited minutes tonight... unfortunately, Tony had a down game, which is odd, he was playing great until tonight...

[apalisoc_9]

Kawhi played limited minutes tonight... unfortunately, Tony had a down game, which is odd, he was playing great until tonight...

Kawhi took 1 shot in 14 minutes. Playing limited minute.does.not mean you end.up with 1 shot.

Parker is heavy responsible for.not getting leonard in a rhytem.

He barely touched the.ball.at.all the first 6 minutes of the game

[Spur|n|Austin]

I wouldn't say the offense is shifting away from the KL post up, I think Kawhi actually had not fully shaken off his stomach bug.

[apalisoc_9]

Its not a stomach bug...kawhi is barely averaging 13 shots a game in the last something games.

Parker is almost Veraging the same shots.

[dabom]

I better not see Green with more shots than Kawhi ever again.

[FkLA]

Kawhi played limited minutes tonight... unfortunately, Tony had a down game, which is odd, he was playing great until tonight...

It's not one bad night that's the problem, it's the apparent change in offensive philosophy. Since Enrique started playing better it looks like Pop has made him the focal point again. Kawhi has been getting most of his points as a spot up shooter for the past 1-1.5 weeks.

[spurraider21]

imo kawhi wasn't being assertive until too late in the 4th. he looked tentative out there... one of his turnovers he went up for a shot and decided to try to pass last second instead of being decisive. i think he's still ailed by whatever was bothering him last game. he'll be fine

[dabom]

It's not one bad night that's the problem, it's the apparent change in offensive philosophy. Since Enrique started playing better it looks like Pop has made him the focal point again. Kawhi has been getting most of his points as a spot up shooter for the past 1-1.5 weeks.

This is true man. I can see Kawhi involved less in the offense. Anyone saying anything else is a fucking moron.

[YGWHI]

i think he's still ailed by whatever was bothering him last game.

If you look his last five games, his role on offense has dramatically changed. He barely touched the ball in the first half of those games, now he's just a spot up shooter.

[313]

Jordan wouldn't have ever let the McShits stop him from dropping at least 20 on a team like the Raptors. Kawhi just doesn't have it, period.

We just have to hope LMA gets it together soon.

[FkLA]

Trolling aside, I think Enrique should have a bigger role if he continues to play well but not to the extent that Kawhi is reduced to standing in the corner. I can't believe some of you have no problem with a Top 5 player being wasted like that.

It's not as simple as being assertive or FGAs either. How about running plays for him? Running the offense through him? Couple of weeks ago we were discussing his evolution of dealing with double teams in the post, now we're lucky if he gets more than a couple of post-ups per game. He had like two today.

[313]

Trolling aside, I think Enrique should have a bigger role if he continues to play well but not to the extent that Kawhi is reduced to standing in the corner. I can't believe some of you have no problem with a Top 5 player being wasted like that.

It's not as simple as being assertive or FGAs either. How about running plays for him? Couple of weeks ago we were discuss his evolution of dealing with double teams in the post, now we're lucky if he gets more than a couple of post-ups per game. He had like two today.
Trolling aside, you have to wonder what the train of thought is when Pop is doing his playcalling, or if some nights he just lets them freelance the basic motions of the offense and calls plays sparingly, when he feels like it.

[ElNono]

Trolling aside, I think Enrique should have a bigger role if he continues to play well but not to the extent that Kawhi is reduced to standing in the corner. I can't believe some of you have no problem with a Top 5 player being wasted like that.

It's not as simple as being assertive or FGAs either. How about running plays for him? Running the offense through him? Couple of weeks ago we were discussing his evolution of dealing with double teams in the post, now we're lucky if he gets more than a couple of post-ups per game. He had like two today.

Not an excuse, but the rotation tonight was all fucked up... Pop pulled Kawhi really early in the 1st, and then he played some with the bench...

I wanna see what this looks like once he plays his usual minutes, tbh

[YGWHI]

Jordan wouldn't have ever let the McShits stop him from dropping at least 20 on a team like the Raptors. Kawhi just doesn't have it, period.

Wait...Kawhi isn't Jordan? He isn't the best player in the history?? No way.

This opportunistic shit didn't post the same when Kawhi was averaging 24 ppg in 5 games in a row...now when his offense has been reduced to be a spot up shooter, he casually remembers "Kawhi just doesn't have it"

[HarlemHeat37]

I was at the game and sitting close enough to notice(:lol), Kawhi was visibly lethargic, tbh..

[YGWHI]

I wanna see what this looks like once he plays his usual minutes, tbh

You just need to rewatch his last 4 games. Barely touched the ball in the first half and most of his points were from three-point range...
He's just a 3 spot up shooter. What a waste.

[YGWHI]

I was at the game and sitting close enough to notice(:lol), Kawhi was visibly lethargic, tbh..

This game. What's Pop excuse for letting Kawhi parking in the corner the last 4?

[FkLA]

I'm going to start keeping track of Kawhi post-ups. I don't think this is one game/sickness things. His touches in the post have been going down steadily for a while now.

[apalisoc_9]

I'm going to start keeping track of Kawhi post-ups. I don't think this is one game/sickness things. His touches in the post have been going down steadily for a while now.
You should keep track of the.touches in general relative to.parker

[AFMadison]

Finding it hard to complain about Parker huh?

[SAGirl]

GAME REVIEW:

I would not take too much out from this game as it concerns the offense and Kawhiso's.

Kawhi was not 100% (even those who witnessed it live said he looked a bit listless and lacking energy, very unusual for him), so I think Spurs probably didn't want to exhaust him to start off and maybe it was a game where he should have sat, but probably didn't want to.

Tony struggled against Cojo and Lowry.

Lowry is playing super elite at the moment, even getting elite Drtg numbers, so he's doing something right. Cojo's calling card has always been his defensive effort.

Patty struggled too, so its not surprise.

This was a game our bigs needed to dominate, where we were supposed to have the advantage, and they could not do it. TD looked old, slow and struggled bad.

Lamarcus was nowhere to be found.

Diaw and West did their thing offesively, but defensively they were exposed, which is no surprise to fans.

Our bench tried to bring us back led by Manu, who tried to take over and did for most of the game. We got surprising contributions from Simmons and Anderson.

With as bad as we played, we could not get stops at the end and our offensive execution went to shit.

Pop had a hand in this one, perhaps in not stemming the tide early and leaving the adjustments for later in the game, when it was almost out of reach with all the momentum in Raptor's favor, but to be fair to Pop, he did bench guys, unlike the past. In this game he went to, and stayed with the guys that were making the required effort. Problem was that there were too few of those guys. Kawhi didn't show up until the end, and even then, he looked gassed. It just wasn't enough, and it doesn't all have to rely on him or Manu either.

Guys like Danny and LMA also needed to show up.

[TheDoctor]

Awkward game, just that.

[spursistan]

Something to keep an eye on..The Memphis 3 point explosion aside (done on his own with a hot hand), majority of Kawhi touches have come late in clock or in 2nd half and has resulted in mostly inefficient games (from Chicago game on)..

[Brazil]

Parker took 7 shots in 30 mn... that's not being the focal point of the offense... 5 players took more shots than him... west in 16 mn shot 6 :lol

weird timing to complain about parker getting too many touches

Kawhi was not feeling good, he had an off game... I don't see the big deal

[pookenstein]

I better not see Green with more shots than Kawhi ever again.

Or else...?

[FkLA]

ITT: people (most Rique fanboys) who think FGAs determine offensive philosophy of a team

[ducks]

Spurs beat writing said Leonard had no legs and no energy
Parker might have gotten sick from him since they are close

[bic50]

Don't think it's contagious

[spurraider21]

ITT: people (most Rique fanboys) who think FGAs determine offensive philosophy of a team
:lol earlier in the season you were literally complaining that parker's usage rate was too low

[FkLA]

:lol earlier in the season you were literally complaining that parker's usage rate was too low

Wut? No I wasn't and even if I was obviously a happy medium would be ideal not this revolving the offense around him BS.

[TheMulletMan3000]

and becoming more Enrique-centered. I know he's been playing better but is this a good thing? I kinda miss the days when people were complaining that the offense was too iso-oriented with Kawhi/LMA tbh.

I'd rather go down on the backs of two stars in their prime instead of overelying on a 33 yr old PG.

but, kawhi was ill. relax, long season, he will get his touches and dominate the game.

[Chinook]

A Kawhi-centered offense will never be as good as the offense when Parker was at his height. If Tony has it going on, you give him the ball. Same thing with any Spur. Why don't people understand this by now?

[YGWHI]

A Kawhi-centered offense will never be as good as the offense when Parker was at his height. If Tony has it going on, you give him the ball. Same thing with any Spur. Why don't people understand this by now?

Because Tony's 33 and the Spurs should find other options to run their offense? Because the Spurs don't have cap space to sign a superstar PG until 2018? Because they need to continue to develop Kawhi as an offensive player?

[Chinook]

Because Tony's 33 and the Spurs should find other options to run their offense? Because the Spurs don't have cap space to sign a superstar PG until 2018? Because they need to continue to develop Kawhi as an offensive player?

No. No to all of those. Especially the second one.

[bic50]

A Kawhi-centered offense will never be as good as the offense when Parker was at his height. If Tony has it going on, you give him the ball. Same thing with any Spur. Why don't people understand this by now?

Kawhi is not at his peak.

[YGWHI]

No. No to all of those. Especially the second one.

So you think the Spurs shouldn't find other ways, shouldn't develop Kawhi's offensive game?

Not sure if there are many ways to develop a player's offense if he doesn't have the ball in his hands, for the stats we know that Kawhi shots less and has a low USG% with Parker on the court.

Talking about cap space, I remember you and richie saying the Spurs couldn't sign a big name free agent until 2018, they will have a massive amount of cap space before that season?

[SAGirl]

A Kawhi-centered offense will never be as good as the offense when Parker was at his height. If Tony has it going on, you give him the ball. Same thing with any Spur. Why don't people understand this by now?
Because too many player fans put the welfare and adoration of one player above the whole.
Pop has actually made a lot of adjustments to the offense to take advantage of Kawhi's skillset. Lamarcus and Danny are the ones struggling the most. In the Raptors game, maybe Kawhi should not have even played.

[YGWHI]

Because too many player fans put the welfare and adoration of one player above the whole.
Parker or Kawhi? We know Kawhi's the present and future of the franchise, it's reasonable to expect to run the offense a bit more through him.


Pop has actually made a lot of adjustments to the offense to take advantage of Kawhi's skillset
Maybe in the first games. In the last 4 games we saw that Pop adjustments were relying on Parker-LMA PnR/pops, and not giving the ball to Kawhi in the post, basically he didn't have touches in the first half of those games.


In the Raptors game, maybe Kawhi should not have even played.
Agree. It was pretty obvious.

[K...]

dang chinook shaking them player fans by the balls without mercy.

Look wake me up in MAy 2016 if Kawhi is still being frozen out. This is mad scientist time. Ya;ll been here before? Spurs regular season? Pre SPAM games?

[K...]

oh no my favorite player is not getting all the touches, i must jihad

[YGWHI]

Look wake me up in MAy 2016 if Kawhi is still being frozen out...oh no my favorite player is not getting all the touches, i must jihad

Well, at least this time you are not calling Kawhi retarded...A step in the right direction after all.

[Chinook]

Kawhi is not at his peak.

Even if he becomes prime Melo on offense, an offense based around him won't be as good as the offense around Parker at his peak.

[YGWHI]

Even if he becomes prime Melo on offense, an offense based around him won't be as good as the offense around Parker at his peak.
But the problem is that Parker isn't at his peak anymore. That's why the Spurs should try to find other ways...

[Chinook]

So you think the Spurs shouldn't find other ways, shouldn't develop Kawhi's offensive game?

Not sure if there are many ways to develop a player's offense if he doesn't have the ball in his hands, for the stats we know that Kawhi shots less and has a low USG% with Parker on the court.

Talking about cap space, I remember you and richie saying the Spurs couldn't sign a big name free agent until 2018, they will have a massive amount of cap space before that season?

The Spurs should give the hot hand the ball, now and always. If Tony's offense is having an Indian summer, he gets the ball. Duncan got the ball against the Clippers, and he fails every check you had set up for Parker. Kawhi will have to learn to play with guys, because his offense outside of set plays and spot-up shots isn't all that conducive to sharing the ball. That will come in time, but a non-marginalized Kawhi is going to bog down the offense a bit -- look at Melo and Kobe in their primes for examples of this, and then calibrate for the way the game has changed.

Anyway, the Spurs will be flush with cap space after next season. They'll get more in 2018, when Parker expires and Green and LMA can opt out. But the team will be able to enter the summer of 2017 with a max slot.

[Chinook]

But the problem is that Parker isn't at his peak anymore. That's why the Spurs should try to find other ways...

No. You're concatenating two separate statements. The Spurs don't have to focus on building an offense around Kawhi, because that won't be a dominant offense. Kawhi can become a dominant offensive player like Melo or Prime Kobe, but the rest of the team is going to struggle with awkward roles. Building around a wing is extremely difficult.

That's one idea, the other one is that if Parker is shooting well, he should get the ball. It's not about building an offense around Parker now -- it's about taking advantage of players having hot nights. Parker only has so many elite games left in him, and the team should make sure he gets all he can eat on those days. They shouldn't go, "Sorry Tony, I know you have it going on, but we have to give Kawhi his turn."

[YGWHI]

Kawhi will have to learn to play with guys, because his offense outside of set plays and spot-up shots isn't all that conducive to sharing the ball.
Learning to play with guys, means at some point, to have the ball in his hands to make the right decision between shot or make a play for others.
We won't see Kawhi in that position very often with Parker calling the plays...that's why I said before I'd like to see Kawhi playing more minutes with the second unit.


Anyway, the Spurs will be flush with cap space after next season. They'll get more in 2018, when Parker expires and Green and LMA can opt out. But the team will be able to enter the summer of 2017 with a max slot.
Thanks. I was thinking in 2018 because of Parker expires but a season before sounds really good.

[Chinook]

Learning to play with guys, means at some point, to have the ball in his hands to make the right decision between shot or make a play for others.
We won't see Kawhi in that position very often with Parker calling the plays...that's why I said before I'd like to see Kawhi playing more minutes with the second unit.

Kawhi plays a lot with the second unit for a guy who starts. He's the last guy subbed out, or second-to-last if LMA has to stay in. But anyway, Parker's a Spur for three more years. You don't waste his last good years planning for him not being on the team. If Parker's getting into the paint consistently on the team, Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait for the secondary action. The only initiator that's better than a clean Parker drive is a Diaw mismatch post-up.

[SAGirl]

Parker or Kawhi? We know Kawhi's the present and future of the franchise, it's reasonable to expect to run the offense a bit more through him.

There are player fans both ways. . . also there are player fans beyond these two, they just don't make it a duel between them or at least not to the degree of these two.

None of them are my favorite player, but I like them both. Each has their role. Bottom line, the team runs best with both guys as well as others (Danny and LMA currently who are both struggling to adapt in different and individual ways), being unselfish and making plays for the collective.

[dabom]

People still want choker porker to chuck? Dude isn't in his prime so why do people keep talking like he is going to round into form anytime soon or even at all?

Same people that probably expected LMA to be the leading scorer probably.

[YGWHI]

No. You're concatenating two separate statements. The Spurs don't have to focus on building an offense around Kawhi, because that won't be a dominant offense. Kawhi can become a dominant offensive player like Melo or Prime Kobe, but the rest of the team is going to struggle with awkward roles.

Nobody expects Kawhi has 24 FGA like prime Kobe/Melo, that won't happen with this team, but not sure why having a PG who can distribute the offense more than look for his own plays is an awkward role for a point guard.

[SAGirl]

Maybe in the first games. In the last 4 games we saw that Pop adjustments were relying on Parker-LMA PnR/pops, and not giving the ball to Kawhi in the post, basically he didn't have touches in the first half of those games.

He did have touches. You are not going to run the full game through him, particularly when you have other talent in the roster.

Perhaps Pops wants to establish LMA early. As anyone else he's a rhythm player. He could have actually helped against the Raptors and didn't. That is on LMA and Pop. I expect Pop will continue to try different things to get LMA going. Maybe Kawhi should be involved in plays with him more. Not all touches by Kawhi need to be post ups. He runs some PnR as well with TD and LMA.

[YGWHI]

But anyway, Parker's a Spur for three more years. You don't waste his last good years planning for him not being on the team. If Parker's getting into the paint consistently on the team, Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait for the secondary action.

If there's a secondary action...

On other point of view, the Spurs shouldn't have Kawhi parking in the corner for three years more.

[YGWHI]

He did have touches.
Not in the first half.


Perhaps Pops wants to establish LMA early. That is on LMA and Pop. I expect Pop will continue to try different things to get LMA going. Maybe Kawhi should be involved in plays with him more. Not all touches by Kawhi need to be post ups. He runs some PnR as well with TD and LMA

Agree. That's Pop is doing but like I've said before I'd like to see some designed play that involve both. Play them as a tandem will benefit the offense.

People here love the idea of Kawhi parking in the corner but having a passive Kawhi isn't the best for this team.

[SAGirl]

Not in the first half.



Agree. That's Pop is doing but like I've said before I'd like to see some designed play that involve both. Play them as a tandem will benefit the offense.

People here love the idea of Kawhi parking in the corner but having a passive Kawhi isn't the best for this team.

It is good for him to spot up occassionally because he's already playing about 40 minutes in really tight contested games against elite teams. You have to preserve his energy if you want him to continue to play elite defense.

He is terrific on 3 pt shots this season.

About 45% of his shots are still assisted, which for sure helps his effectiveness, just as much as he helps others when he post ups and ends up passing to someone who is open due to his double teaming.

There has to be a balance specially this early bc other guys don't have it going. Kawhi hit the floor running this season, Tony has been spectacular as well.

Others are struggling and deserve attention from Pop to find out what works.

It will all hopefully come together at some point.

Not sure what is up with Pop not running plays for Kawhi and LMA, other than maybe Kawhi is not good enough in those plays, or on PnR, or as a ballhandler. I do believe they need to find a successful 2 man game, but it might hinge more on LMA at this point than on Kawhi. LMA is still lost in this offense, other than popping, and taking his midrange shots. We'll see, that is an area I hope Pop continues to experiment on and it may not come together until later in the season.

Tony is barely getting chemistry with LMA himself. He's been better with Tim, and you also want to phase Tim out. If you were going to complaint about the offense being out of whack, this is another area to point to instead of the Kawhi post up issue. I think he's getting enough.

[sasaint]

Kawhi plays a lot with the second unit for a guy who starts. He's the last guy subbed out, or second-to-last if LMA has to stay in. But anyway, Parker's a Spur for three more years. You don't waste his last good years planning for him not being on the team. If Parker's getting into the paint consistently on the team, Kawhi should just trot to the corner and wait for the secondary action. The only initiator that's better than a clean Parker drive is a Diaw mismatch post-up.

In fact, Kawhi has been extremely effective when teamed with Simmons, and vice versa. I would argue that the best "initiators" are Parker, Manu and Boris.

[FkLA]

lol at Chinook wanting Kawhi to stand in the corner in favor of an Enrique-centered offense

Also Kawhi started off the season being the last starter to sub out but that hasn't been the case for like the last two weeks.

[SAGirl]

lol at Chinook wanting Kawhi to stand in the corner in favor of an Enrique-centered offense

Also Kawhi started off the season being the last starter to sub out but that hasn't been the case for like the last two weeks.

When we are blowing out teams early like ATL, Milwaukee and 76ers, for sure Pop is going to give a chance to the subs. It has actually given Pop a chance to see more of Simmons, Anderson and some Boban and Ray sprinkled in.

I am actually glad that we have been able to afford seeing more of these guys, bc as it was with the super tight 8 man rotation we started we were not going to survive the full season. We have too many older dudes and can fall to attrition later in the season, and yet Pop was not confident and didn't have trust in any of these guys... and may still not have trust as a matter of fact. However the fact some of them have consistently had eye opening good games is a good thing.

[K...]

Are these player fans still whining about games being played in December and shit? So beta

[Russo21]

When we are blowing out teams early like ATL, Milwaukee and 76ers, for sure Pop is going to give a chance to the subs. It has actually given Pop a chance to see more of Simmons, Anderson and some Boban and Ray sprinkled in.

I am actually glad that we have been able to afford seeing more of these guys, bc as it was with the super tight 8 man rotation we started we were not going to survive the full season. We have too many older dudes and can fall to attrition later in the season, and yet Pop was not confident and didn't have trust in any of these guys... and may still not have trust as a matter of fact. However the fact some of them have consistently had eye opening good games is a good thing. Spot on

[Agloco]

Lol, people have completely failed the reading comprehension test that Chinook gave.