Justice Antonin Scalia floats ‘lesser schools’ for black students

[DMX7]

Though the court’s most conservative justices are all on the record being deeply skeptical of affirmative action, it was Justice Antonin Scalia who raised eyebrows Wednesday, as the court heard yet another case challenging a race-conscious policy.

“There are those who contend that it does not benefit African-Americans to — to get them into the University of Texas where they do not do well, as opposed to having them go to a less-advanced school, a less — a slower-track school where they do well,” Scalia said. “One of the briefs pointed out that most of the black scientists in this country don’t come from schools like the University of Texas. They come from lesser schools where they do not feel that they’re being pushed ahead in classes that are too fast for them.” He added, “I don’t think it stands to reason that it is a good thing for the University of Texas to admit as many blacks as possible.”

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/impasse-affirmative-action

He's not even using the dog whistle anymore. He's going full blown Trump.

[spurraider21]

it was an argument of one of the attorneys he was going off of, iirc

and i know its super trendy to take shots at scalia (he can be ridiculous at time) but even roberts said something along the lines of "i dont see what new perspective you'd get in a physics class by having a minority student"

[DMX7]

Even a physics major doesn't only take physics classes. Besides, there is also a value to society in promoting diversity in higher education among underrepresented minorities.

[angrydude]

Even a physics major doesn't only take physics classes. Besides, there is also a value to society in promoting diversity in higher education among underrepresented minorities.

1. not really.

2. Scalia is the definition of an elitist lawyer who thinks because he went to a top ranked school he's better than everyone else.

[rmt]

I think this post belongs in this thread rather than the redistricting one.


then there's that stupid privileged TX bitch not smart enough to get into UT challenging affirmative action. Once a slave state, always a slave state.

Let me tell you how it feels on the other side. My dd - 17 AP classes (all 5s), 2370 (out of 2400) SAT, salutatorian, all As with 1 semester B (AP English Language). She and the members (all Asians) of the #1 math team in the US were put on the waiting list at WashU while lesser (black and hispanic) students were accepted. This was so racially oriented and it pissed off the guidance counselors no end. So much for being a top-notch science school - rejecting all the members of the #1 math team in the nation to diversify your class. What do you tell your child when she asks what was the point of all that hard work?

That's how it feels to be rejected BECAUSE of the color of your skin and not judged by the merits of your work.

[313]

I think this post belongs in this thread rather than the redistricting one.



Let me tell you how it feels on the other side. My dd - 17 AP classes (all 5s), 2370 (out of 2400) SAT, salutatorian, all As with 1 semester B (AP English Language). She and the members (all Asians) of the #1 math team in the US were put on the waiting list at WashU while lesser (black and hispanic) students were accepted. This was so racially oriented and it pissed off the guidance counselors no end. So much for being a top-notch science school - rejecting all the members of the #1 math team in the nation to diversify your class. What do you tell your child when she asks what was the point of all that hard work?

That's how it feels to be rejected BECAUSE of the color of your skin and not judged by the merits of your work.
Fuck ya, Murica.

Feelsgoodman

[Jacob1983]

Talent>diversity

[Koolaid_Man]

If all the smartest people were allowed entry into Americas top colleges then all the whites should be kicked out and all the Asians and Chinese would be allowed entry...no other race on its face can compete intellectually with the Asians and Chinese.....

See how that works Scalia?

[Koolaid_Man]

Talent>diversity

Agree with that on its face..however something needs to be done to atone for the systemic and institutionalized marginilation of blacks over the years....black kids by and large have to worry about shit growing up as kids that traditional white kids don't...white kids by and large come to school from day 1 with all the resources they will ever need whereas most blacks don't. The issue is deep and systemic....

Even though he tried to stab a nikka Dr. Carson is a good example of the abilities if the playing field or opportunities increased....if we applied this same logic across all sports then only 0.05% of whites should be allowed to play in any given sport..in fact port over the whole continent of Africa in replace of the whites in sports....

See how that works Scalia?

[baseline bum]

I think this post belongs in this thread rather than the redistricting one.



Let me tell you how it feels on the other side. My dd - 17 AP classes (all 5s), 2370 (out of 2400) SAT, salutatorian, all As with 1 semester B (AP English Language). She and the members (all Asians) of the #1 math team in the US were put on the waiting list at WashU while lesser (black and hispanic) students were accepted. This was so racially oriented and it pissed off the guidance counselors no end. So much for being a top-notch science school - rejecting all the members of the #1 math team in the nation to diversify your class. What do you tell your child when she asks what was the point of all that hard work?

That's how it feels to be rejected BECAUSE of the color of your skin and not judged by the merits of your work.

:cry And then my half black daughter got into Caltech with a 1200. :cry

[boutons_deux]

it was an argument of one of the attorneys he was going off of, iirc

and i know its super trendy to take shots at scalia (he can be ridiculous at time) but even roberts said something along the lines of "i dont see what new perspective you'd get in a physics class by having a minority student"

there's nothing "even" about Catholic, white, wealthy, privileged Roberts, he's a tool of the privileged, racist (white Christian male) VRWC. His "logic" is a silly, irrelevant as Scalia's. Who said anything about "perspective"? And who's perspective? The class' or that of minority students in the class? Affirmative action is an attempt to give better prospects to minority students.

Roberts wants perspective? how about:

Diversity Makes You Brighter

Upholding affirmative action in 2003, in Grutter v. Bollinger, Justice Sandra Day O’Connor argued that it served the intellectual purpose of a university. Writing for the majority, she described how the University of Michigan aspired to enhance diversity not only to improve the prospects of certain groups of students, but also to enrich everyone’s education.

Our research provides such evidence. Diversity improves the way people think. By disrupting conformity, racial and ethnic diversity prompts people to scrutinize facts, think more deeply and develop their own opinions. Our findings show that such diversity actually benefits everyone, minorities and majority alike.

The findings were striking. When participants were in diverse company, their answers were 58 percent more accurate. The prices they chose were much closer to the true values of the stocks. As they spent time interacting in diverse groups, their performance improved.

For our study, we intentionally chose a situation that required analytical thinking, seemingly unaffected by ethnicity or race. We wanted to understand whether the benefits of diversity stem, as the common thinking has it, from some special perspectives or skills of minorities.

What we actually found is that these benefits can arise merely from the very presence of minorities. In the initial responses, which were made before participants interacted, there were no statistically significant differences between participants in the homogeneous or diverse groups. Minority members did not bring some special knowledge.

The differences emerged only when participants began interacting with one another. When surrounded by people “like ourselves,” we are easily influenced, more likely to fall for wrong ideas. Diversity prompts better, critical thinking. It contributes to error detection. It keeps us from drifting toward miscalculation.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/opinion/diversity-makes-you-brighter.html

[Othyus Lalanne]

If all the smartest people were allowed entry into Americas top colleges then all the whites should be kicked out and all the Asians and Chinese would be allowed entry...no other race on its face can compete intellectually with the Asians and Chinese.....

See how that works Scalia?
Simple, go back to to the assemblly line to the boardroom. Memorising data should not be the end all be all to becomeing part of the elite.

[DMX7]

1. not really.

2. Scalia is the definition of an elitist lawyer who thinks because he went to a top ranked school he's better than everyone else.

yes, really.

Read the briefs in support of UT.

http://www.utexas.edu/vp/irla/Fisher-V-Texas.html

Just about everyone believes there is.

[mrsmaalox]

Talent>diversity

And talent isn't necessarily reflected in high school grades or achievements.

Just a little personal experience anecdote: When my oldest son was applying to schools I participated in an online Q&A sponsored by the New York Times with admissions representatives from 20 top tier schools in the country. I don't remember every school that participated but the panel included UCBerkeley, UMichigan, Clemson, Georgia Tech, UMaryland, Penn State, maybe Arizona State and I don't remember the rest. They were talking about the stiff competition for spots among so many highly ranked students. And they basically said everyone wants to blame racial diversity when they aren't accepted, but amongst the highest achieving students there are many many other micro-factors they consider.

This is what I took away from that session. First off they sort packets with "thicker packet=thinner student" in mind; packets heavily padded with achievements and recommendations are pushed to the bottom of the pile. SAT scores are important but when you have 1000 packets all with >2300 scores it just doesn't mean much and is then basically ignored. They prefer to look at "trends" in the student's learning. A student who hits struggles along the way academically and recovers is preferable to one that never falters. And then the dreaded essay. An essay with mild grammatical errors is preferable to a computer precise one. An essay that focuses on what the student hopes to achieve for himself is tossed in favor of the student who focuses on how he will use his education to better the world around him. It was an eye opener to me to say the least but I got it when one of the panelists stated that was how they avoid accepting "parent driven automatons" in favor of real talent.

[boutons_deux]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CV3DXyfXIAAZe31.jpg

[rmt]

If all the smartest people were allowed entry into Americas top colleges then all the whites should be kicked out and all the Asians and Chinese would be allowed entry...no other race on its face can compete intellectually with the Asians and Chinese.....

See how that works Scalia?

I disagree with Chinese/asians being the smartest. Babies are all clean slates - I take that back a bit - the Chinese take exceptional care of themselves when they are pregnant - it's because they don't know whether it's a boy or girl, that you should choose a Chinese girl when adopting over other nationalities who are more likely products of rape, drugs, etc. For the asians, it comes down to parental involvement and expectations. The parents have them play chess and piano, join math clubs - things that enhance their education. All races are equal - it is the upbringing.

[boutons_deux]

There's little evidence for the claim that African-American students "do not do well" at the University of Texas Austin. Black students there have a graduation rate of nearly 70 percent (http://collegemeasures.org/4-year_colleges/state/tx/compare-colleges/graduation-rates/). That's the highest for black students anywhere in the University of Texas system. The other colleges in the system are less selective — what Scalia might call "slower-track schools" — and graduation rates for black students at those universities are much lower.

It's true that graduation rates for black students at UT Austin lag behind those of white students, but that's true nationally; within the context of that national graduation rate gap (http://collegemeasures.org/4-year_colleges/institution/The-University-of-Texas-at-Austin-TX/scorecard/graduation-rates/), black students at the University of Texas aren't faring badly. The university is in the 93rd percentile of graduation rates at public universities for both black and white students.

The argument that black students, or less prepared students of any race, don't end up benefiting from affirmative action because they can't keep up with the work is known as mismatch theory. Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas is its most prominent advocate. In his dissent in Grutter v. Bollinger, the court's last high-profile affirmative action case, in 2003, he described elite colleges as "tantalizing" underprepared students with admissions offers.

"These overmatched students take the bait, only to find that they cannot succeed in the cauldron of competition," Thomas writes.

The only way to prove the mismatch theory true or false would be to randomly assign minority students with similar academic backgrounds to different colleges and see what happens. That's obviously impractical. But the bulk of research suggests that in fact, students who are admitted to competitive colleges despite being less academically qualified than their peers end up doing fine.



Students from underrepresented communities who attend selective colleges are more likely to graduate than students with similar academic qualifications who do not.
A 2013 study (http://www.ssc.wisc.edu/cde/cdewp/2013-06.pdf) from two sociologists, Michal Kurlaender of the University of California Davis and Eric Grodsky from the University of Wisconsin, looked at an unusual situation at the University of California. Budget struggles led the university to admit fewer students than it had expected to, and it cut out students who were on the academic margins, weaker than other applicants. Then the budget situation improved, and so students were admitted after all. Those students who barely made the cut performed no worse than students from a similar educational background who were admitted through the normal admissions process.
A 2007 study (http://www.margaritamooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/academicconsequencesofthreeaffirmativeaction.pdf) of students whose SAT scores were lower than the average SAT score of other students at their college found those students were not less likely to drop out, although in some cases they earned lower grades.
Students from minority groups benefit more (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272775709001150), in terms of lifetime earnings, from attending a selective college than their white peers, according to research from economists Stacy Dale and Alan Krueger (http://www.vox.com/2014/8/5/5968681/expensive-college-worth-it).


http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2015/12/10/9885594/scalia-affirmative-action-mismatch

iow, Scalia is just another Repug extremist SCOTUS tool totally full of shit, and 100% shitty jurist.

Thanks, Repugs (St Ronnie's "bad" lives on well after his death)

[rmt]

For us basketball fans, imagine a world in which we didn't get to see the very, very best but instead the players were apportioned by race - there'd be the requisite asian, x whites, x hispanics and ONLY 16% blacks. In this world, we would only see Lebron, Durant, Davis, ... the very top players - we would not see the black players who even though they were better than the asian/white/hispanic players couldn't play because of AA. Fortunately for us, in a free market system we get to see the best based on merit not race.

If you had to have brain surgery done (Ben Carson notwithstanding), would you prefer the very best surgeon based on merit or one who got in because of AA (med school admission accepts blacks with lower MCAT scores and GPA than white/asians).

[Trill Clinton]

study's show AA helps white women as much or even more than people of color.

[xrayzebra]

I have a question. Just how long does AA have to go on? Is people having to stand on their on two feet and brain power ever going to be the norm? Or is unequal the norm? What the hell is so great about diversity?

[boutons_deux]

Just how long does AA have to go on?

How long have Euro-Americans shit on Afro-Americans? The shitting-on continues daily.

[RandomGuy]

And talent isn't necessarily reflected in high school grades or achievements.

Just a little personal experience antedote: When my oldest son was applying to schools I participated in an online Q&A sponsored by the New York Times with admissions representatives from 20 top tier schools in the country. I don't remember every school that participated but the panel included UCBerkeley, UMichigan, Clemson, Georgia Tech, UMaryland, Penn State, maybe Arizona State and I don't remember the rest. They were talking about the stiff competition for spots among so many highly ranked students. And they basically said everyone wants to blame racial diversity when they aren't accepted, but amongst the highest achieving students there are many many other micro-factors they consider.

This is what I took away from that session. First off they sort packets with "thicker packet=thinner student" in mind; packets heavily padded with achievements and recommendations are pushed to the bottom of the pile. SAT scores are important but when you have 1000 packets all with >2300 scores it just doesn't mean much and is then basically ignored. They prefer to look at "trends" in the student's learning. A student who hits struggles along the way academically and recovers is preferable to one that never falters. And then the dreaded essay. An essay with mild grammatical errors is preferable to a computer precise one. An essay that focuses on what the student hopes to achieve for himself is tossed in favor of the student who focuses on how he will use his education to better the world around him. It was an eye opener to me to say the least but I got it when one of the panelists stated that was how they avoid accepting "parent driven automatons" in favor of real talent.

Interesting. I will keep that in mind when my kids get there. I hope.... heh.

[xrayzebra]

How long have Euro-Americans shit on Afro-Americans? The shitting-on continues daily.

Answer my question or can you.

[Trill Clinton]

I have a question. Just how long does AA have to go on? Is people having to stand on their on two feet and brain power ever going to be the norm? Or is unequal the norm? What the hell is so great about diversity?

as long as there is still evidence of those in power discriminating people of different, race, religion, sex and disabilities.

[boutons_deux]

Answer my question or can you.

I answered it. go take your meds

[angrydude]

yes, really.

Read the briefs in support of UT.

http://www.utexas.edu/vp/irla/Fisher-V-Texas.html

Just about everyone believes there is.

They say it, that doesn't mean its true. It's like saying you like rainbows and unicorns. Who is against rainbows and unicorns?

College is about sitting in a classroom, being lectured at, then writing an exam parroting what the teacher says while under the mistaken impression that if you're good at it there is a job for you down the road even though there isn't.

Period. End. Stop.

If they really wanted to invite diversity in discussion they would have affirmative action for conservatives. lol

[DMX7]

They say it, that doesn't mean its true. It's like saying you like rainbows and unicorns. Who is against rainbows and unicorns?

College is about sitting in a classroom, being lectured at, then writing an exam parroting what the teacher says while under the mistaken impression that if you're good at it there is a job for you down the road even though there isn't.

Period. End. Stop.

If they really wanted to invite diversity in discussion they would have affirmative action for conservatives. lol

45 of the Fortune 100 companies filed amicus briefs in favor of UT. Military leaders, every Ivy League university, the NY Bar, the federal government, etc. all support affirmative action in college admissions and filed briefs in favor of UT. Sorry, you're laughable "rainbows and unicorns" rebuttal doesn't change that and doesn't make it untrue. :lol

College life at diploma mills is basically what you described. You probably attended one, so that's no surprise. At better colleges, it's considerably different.

[DarrinS]

This is what I took away from that session. First off they sort packets with "thicker packet=thinner student" in mind; packets heavily padded with achievements and recommendations are pushed to the bottom of the pile. SAT scores are important but when you have 1000 packets all with >2300 scores it just doesn't mean much and is then basically ignored. They prefer to look at "trends" in the student's learning. A student who hits struggles along the way academically and recovers is preferable to one that never falters. And then the dreaded essay. An essay with mild grammatical errors is preferable to a computer precise one. An essay that focuses on what the student hopes to achieve for himself is tossed in favor of the student who focuses on how he will use his education to better the world around him. It was an eye opener to me to say the least but I got it when one of the panelists stated that was how they avoid accepting "parent driven automatons" in favor of real talent.



WTF? Tbh

[DMX7]

For us basketball fans, imagine a world in which we didn't get to see the very, very best but instead the players were apportioned by race - there'd be the requisite asian, x whites, x hispanics and ONLY 16% blacks. In this world, we would only see Lebron, Durant, Davis, ... the very top players - we would not see the black players who even though they were better than the asian/white/hispanic players couldn't play because of AA. Fortunately for us, in a free market system we get to see the best based on merit not race.

If you had to have brain surgery done (Ben Carson notwithstanding), would you prefer the very best surgeon based on merit or one who got in because of AA (med school admission accepts blacks with lower MCAT scores and GPA than white/asians).

LMAO, you couldn't have discredited yourself more with you're own argument. You even acknowledge Carson... :lol


I believe that I benefited from affirmative action. When I applied to Yale University, I thought my chances of being accepted were favorable only because I was somewhat naive about admissions requirements for a high-powered Ivy League institution. - Ben Carson

This discussion is about affirmative action in college admissions and in the process of educating people. Professions are something different and a different conversation. The point is to create diversity in the learning environment and to give minorities a chance at elite schools... so they may go on to become world class professionals the way Carson did... even though his grades/test scores didn't necessarily indicate he was more talented than other applicants.

[DarrinS]

Stanford SAT scores

25th Percentile = 2070
Average = 2210
75th Percentile = 2350


Former mayor Julian Castro = 1210

[CosmicCowboy]

Stanford SAT scores

25th Percentile = 2070
Average = 2210
75th Percentile = 2350


Former mayor Julian Castro = 1210

Before 2005 a 1600 was a perfect SAT score.

[DarrinS]

Before 2005 a 1600 was a perfect SAT score.


My bad

[rmt]

LMAO, you couldn't have discredited yourself more with you're own argument. You even acknowledge Carson... :lol



This discussion is about affirmative action in college admissions and in the process of educating people. Professions are something different and a different conversation. The point is to create diversity in the learning environment and to give minorities a chance at elite schools... so they may go on to become world class professionals the way Carson did... even though his grades/test scores didn't necessarily indicate he was more talented than other applicants.

Med school is highly driven by GPA and MCAT scores and like regular college admission, blacks are admitted with lower grades/scores than whites/asians. Look, I have nothing but admiration for Ben Carson and say, Clarence Thomas, who might or might not have also gotten "help."

I'll give you the ironic twist to our experience with AA. My dd chose to go into computer science so I researched the top schools and had her apply to UT-Austin (#6 in CS in the country) - the only one that I could even dream of affording (compared to Stanford, MIT, Carnegie Mellon, etc) - they had offered her a freshman scholarship of $10,000 enough to cover 1 year of Texas resident tuition. We went to visit and met with the head of the CS dept. When we arrived back in Miami, UT offered her a $1000 scholarship with more importantly, an out-of-state tuition waiver ($36k-$10k = $26k). Now, my dd is an excellent all-round student but not any computer whiz. She got this very rare waiver because she falls into 2 underrepresented categories for CS - female with a disability (missing 4 fingers on her right hand). She got into their honors program when other much better (male) computer whizzes didn't. They wanted her for diversity because she doesn't eat, sleep and breathe CS - she's into knitting, arts and crafts, violin, Girl Scout but hadn't done any open source programming, etc.

Fast forward, she said almost all of her fellow CS students applied at Google back in late Aug/early Sept when it first came out. She didn't think she had a chance until about 2-3 weeks before the Nov 30 deadline when I finally convinced her to apply. She applied on a Wednesday, got called the following Monday for 2 interviews, interviewed the next Monday and got accepted the following week. All this while her really GREAT (male) CS classmates haven't heard a word since Aug. These computer nerds finish their assignments in a couple days while she takes a whole week and is often struggling on a Sunday night to meet the deadline.

I know she is nowhere near as good as they are. She was not chosen on the merits of her CS work, but because of other stuff. Now, she's gonna get a chance at working at Google over some really smart CS kids who could invent who knows what. For her, it'll be just a job - something she could make a (good) living at, but she'll go home and be involved in other things more important to her. Do I feel guilty knowing that better CS kids got passed over for my generalist, female, disabled child? You bet I do. And even though it's my child, I still believe it should be judged on merit - not for diversity. We (Google, universities, med schools) do ourselves a disservice not recruiting the very best - who knows what cures, inventions, life-changing things are not discovered because of diversity.

[101A]

I don't know about AA, but I CAN tell you that we are doomed. Just finished helping my wife grade some Chem 101 lab finals. One of the questions was to convert a given weight from mg to kg. Regardless of race, about half missed it.

[baseline bum]

For us basketball fans, imagine a world in which we didn't get to see the very, very best but instead the players were apportioned by race - there'd be the requisite asian, x whites, x hispanics and ONLY 16% blacks. In this world, we would only see Lebron, Durant, Davis, ... the very top players - we would not see the black players who even though they were better than the asian/white/hispanic players couldn't play because of AA. Fortunately for us, in a free market system we get to see the best based on merit not race.

If you had to have brain surgery done (Ben Carson notwithstanding), would you prefer the very best surgeon based on merit or one who got in because of AA (med school admission accepts blacks with lower MCAT scores and GPA than white/asians).

The NBA isn't a free market system, are you nuts? If the NBA was a free market system LeBron would be making 3x as much in salary.

[rmt]

The NBA isn't a free market system, are you nuts? If the NBA was a free market system LeBron would be making 3x as much in salary.

I know - it's almost like a union. The very best bring up the lowest denominator. But you know what I mean. You do have to have talent and work hard - not chosen because you are a certain race. They are the best players on the planet. And Lebron, Durant get rewarded by the free market system with endorsements.

[SpursforSix]

..white kids by and large come to school from day 1 with all the resources they will ever need whereas most blacks don't.

LOL That's bullshit. "all the resources they will ever need".

[DMX7]

The NBA isn't a free market system, are you nuts? If the NBA was a free market system LeBron would be making 3x as much in salary.

The salary cap was designed to create a level playing field, so that small market teams like San Antonio could compete with larger market teams like Chicago and L.A.

But that's not a happy thought when you love free market capitalism and think almost no regulation should occur.

[spurraider21]

Stanford SAT scores

25th Percentile = 2070
Average = 2210
75th Percentile = 2350


Former mayor Julian Castro = 1210


Before 2005 a 1600 was a perfect SAT score.
:lmao

darrin did you research castro's SAT on your own or was there a recent article that you read complaining about it? could you link it please

[baseline bum]

The salary cap was designed to create a level playing field, so that small market teams like San Antonio could compete with larger market teams like Chicago and L.A.

But that's not a happy thought when you love free market capitalism and think almost no regulation should occur.

Yeah, LeBron would be making $60 million in New York or San Francisco right now if the NBA operated like a free market, and the Spurs would be in Anaheim or perhaps contracted.

[Spurminator]

I can't think of a single business that operates as a free market within a free market.

[rmt]

I can't think of a single business that operates as a free market within a free market.

With regard to basketball, it's not a pure free market, but if the NBA did an AA thing and chose based on race, someone else would open another league, hire all the better black players and run the NBA out of business. The consumer would go where the better product (basketball player) is.

[DMX7]

With regard to basketball, it's not a pure free market, but if the NBA did an AA thing and chose based on race, someone else would open another league, hire all the better black players and run the NBA out of business. The consumer would go where the better product (basketball player) is.

It's really not the same thing as AA in education in this context. And we're talking about mostly borderline admits here. It's not like the best and brightest whites are going to get denied by a completely undeserving minority. But when credentials are similar, why not choose diversity?

[rmt]

It's really not the same thing as AA in education in this context. And we're talking about mostly borderline admits here. It's not like the best and brightest whites are going to get denied by a completely undeserving minority. But when credentials are similar, why not choose diversity?

Yes, of course, when credentials are similar, choose diversity. But in the case of education, credentials are not similar are they? In my dd's case, the best and brightest asian/white males are being denied the chance to intern at Google in favor of my nowhere near as good cs daughter.

And yes, there is value in diversity. Manu is worth much more to the Spurs because he is hispanic than a black player of similar talent would.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

My bad

Sophist is as sophist does.

It should be noted that this account claims to have graduated UTSA engineering in the 1980s. He should know better yet doesn't.

[rmt]

Sophist is as sophist does.

It should be noted that this account claims to have graduated UTSA engineering in the 1980s. He should know better yet doesn't.

They are switching back to the 1600. Ds took the new PSAT in Oct and is awaiting the result. National Merit honors in Florida means a FULL ride at our state universities.

[DMX7]

Yes, of course, when credentials are similar, choose diversity. But in the case of education, credentials are not similar are they?

Similar enough -- which of course is subjective and varies from school to school -- but I don't think anyone is saying people who are completely lacking credentials should be taking the spot of students who are truly top notch. In the case of Fisher, her credentials were far from impeccable.

[boutons_deux]

Scalia spouts off ill-considered, extemporaneous, un-SCOTUS-worthy shit the same way Trump spouts shit.

Thanks, Repugs!

[Koolaid_Man]

study's show AA helps white women as much or even more than people of color.

:lol I do don't I

[DarrinS]

:lmao

darrin did you research castro's SAT on your own or was there a recent article that you read complaining about it? could you link it please

Yeah, I screwed that up. Regardless, Castro's score would've been well below average Stanford.

[DarrinS]

If the NBA were forced to have the same racial demographics as the US, the quality of the league would go down substantially.

[spurraider21]

If the NBA were forced to have the same racial demographics as the US, the quality of the league would go down substantially.
yeah it equates to roughly an 1800 on the current scale which isn't that great. ucla usually looks for 2000+

[baseline bum]

yeah it equates to roughly an 1800 on the current scale which isn't that great. ucla usually looks for 2000+

UCLA considers SAT now? I thought they were completely eliminating its usage in admissions.

[spurraider21]

UCLA considers SAT now? I thought they were completely eliminating its usage in admissions.
talking about back when i was applying, around 08/09

they wanted 2000 SAT scores back then

[DarrinS]

Trill pointed out that if admission were purely based on academic performance, the best schools would have mostly Asian students. What's wrong with with that? I wouldn't want to be admitted because the school needed a certain percentage of white students. Make your kids compete.

[DarrinS]

talking about back when i was applying, around 08/09

they wanted 2000 SAT scores back then

Why did they ever change the scale in the first place?

[spurraider21]

Why did they ever change the scale in the first place?
added a writing section for an additional 800 points

[xrayzebra]

I answered it. go take your meds

Yeah, just like you always do. With a no answer, just throw more racism into the mix......idiot twerp.

[Th'Pusher]

Yes, of course, when credentials are similar, choose diversity. But in the case of education, credentials are not similar are they? In my dd's case, the best and brightest asian/white males are being denied the chance to intern at Google in favor of my nowhere near as good cs daughter.

What does it tell you when a wildly successful company like Google freely chooses to employ AA?

[rmt]

What does it tell you when a wildly successful company like Google freely chooses to employ AA?

They are heavily criticized when their (lack of) diversity numbers come out. Now, mind you, the students still have to pass 2 pretty heavy tech interviews, but it's the CHANCE to get the interviews. Google jobs are even more rare (percentage-wise) than getting into Harvard. Iirc, it's 1000 applications for every available job. This particular job asks 3 questions in the application: 1. Why is diversity in the workforce important and how can Google increase their diversity 2. Tell about a time you've used your strongest coding language 3. What developed your interest in CS?

[Nbadan]

I have a question. Just how long does AA have to go on? Is people having to stand on their on two feet and brain power ever going to be the norm? Or is unequal the norm? What the hell is so great about diversity?

As long as we have unequal funding of public schools and resources IMO....better schools get all the resources, all the help, all the facilities...

Teachers in poorer districts often buy their own supplies...

[ElNono]

The comparison with the NBA is all wrong.

It should be pretty obvious why the state would have an interest in better access to education for all, especially disadvantaged minorities. The entertainment business? Not much at all.

[boutons_deux]

The comparison with the NBA is all wrong.

hilariously so

[DarrinS]

The comparison with the NBA is all wrong.

It should be pretty obvious why the state would have an interest in better access to education for all, especially disadvantaged minorities. The entertainment business? Not much at all.


The public school I attended had less than 7% white students. All you needed was something to write with and an attention span. Muh white privilege

[boutons_deux]

The public school I attended had less than 7% white students.

... explains your lack of education, and risible ignorance.

[DarrinS]

... explains your lack of education, and risible ignorance.

Graduated in top 1% of my class. :lol

[boutons_deux]

Graduated in top 1% of my class. :lol

... obviously the curve was REALLY skewed.

[FromWayDowntown]

With regard to basketball, it's not a pure free market, but if the NBA did an AA thing and chose based on race, someone else would open another league, hire all the better black players and run the NBA out of business. The consumer would go where the better product (basketball player) is.

The better analogy -- if you're stuck on the NBA as a means to make such an analogy (I agree with others that it's not particularly apt) -- isn't based on players, it's based on markets.

If the NBA went solely to allocating teams to large markets (on the presumption that their size would allow better support), the league might have 3 or 4 teams in both Los Angeles and New York, 2 teams in Chicago, and almost certainly wouldn't have teams in places like Portland, Sacramento, Salt Lake City, Oklahoma City, or San Antonio.

Entry into a number of small markets is basically the league's form of affirmative action to create diversity among teams.

[DMX7]

Graduated in top 1% of my class. :lol

From what school? That kind of matters.

[Chinook]

Yeah, Penn very publicly goes for "stories" over talents. They routinely deny valedictorians who have spent their lives studying. But if you got a 3.7 while helping your single mother raise two brothers while also managing to work in good test scores and extracurriculars? Golden. Private schools are businesses, and they want to get money above all else. Promoting their brand by looking for the most potential is paramount. To keep with the basketball analogy, they'd rather shoot 40 percent from three than 60 percent from two.

[mingus]

The public school I attended had less than 7% white students. All you needed was something to write with and an attention span. Muh white privilege

White privilege exists. Not so sure it's as big a deal in schools as it is out in the real world though--education in my experience is product of culture more than anything else, though obviously in certain places other factors (like abject poverty) nullify that. There's gotta be opportunity & accessibility. I've lived in the poorest parts of the country and opportunity & accessibility is there for the most part. It's astounding how many people take it for granted tho.

Where white privileges ecists for a fact is in the workforce. I worked for a company that wouldn't hire black supervisors/managers. That same company also treated me unfairly due to my being a Jew (Management was cracking Jewish jokes, throwing the word kike around freely, I finally said something tho). And I doubt it's the only company. Quota system helps mitigate that.

[ElNono]

The public school I attended had less than 7% white students. All you needed was something to write with and an attention span. Muh white privilege

There's another debate that goes in here, which is profit motive over the state interest in education. It's not much different than the profit motive vs state interest in a healthy society when it comes to healthcare.

In the education part, it appears the interest is largely there, up until college, and then at that point you get a patchwork that retains the profit motive with government backed loans, affirmative action, etc.

It's certainly debatable whether that last part is a good or bad compromise.

[Nbadan]

education in my experience is product of culture more than anything else, though obviously in certain places other factors (like abject poverty) nullify that. There's gotta be opportunity & accessibility. I've lived in the poorest parts of the country and opportunity & accessibility is there for the most part. It's astounding how many people take it for granted tho.

By the end of 7th grade most kids have already figured out whether they want to put in the extra work needed to have a chance of getting an academic scholarship...the main problem with education is that it treats and educates all students the same way....that's why standardization of learning objectives and no child left behind have backfired.....if schools specialized in different specialties, for instance, health....vocational.....higher education.....science/math...etc...schools would be much more successful and classes would be engaging......but standardized testing only test one way....

[rmt]

By the end of 7th grade most kids have already figured out whether they want to put in the extra work needed to have a chance of getting an academic scholarship...the main problem with education is that it treats and educates all students the same way....that's why standardization of learning objectives and no child left behind have backfired.....if schools specialized in different specialties, for instance, health....vocational.....higher education.....science/math...etc...schools would be much more successful and classes would be engaging......but standardized testing only test one way....

I have a problem with specialization - what happens when kids don't know what they want to do. There are a lot of magnet schools here in Miami where there is a certain theme like engineering, health, etc. My kids, like lots of others I'm sure, don't know what they want to do by 8th grade (when you apply for magnet high school). Would you believe that it's not so easy to find a good school that just offers a variety of subjects and lets you pick and choose what you want to take instead of being on a track.

[Quetzal-X]

I disagree with Chinese/asians being the smartest. Babies are all clean slates - I take that back a bit - the Chinese take exceptional care of themselves when they are pregnant - it's because they don't know whether it's a boy or girl, that you should choose a Chinese girl when adopting over other nationalities who are more likely products of rape, drugs, etc. For the asians, it comes down to parental involvement and expectations. The parents have them play chess and piano, join math clubs - things that enhance their education. All races are equal - it is the upbringing.


All races are equal except when it comes time to right the sin of slavery. You devils never fucking did right by anyone but your selfish selves. You devils used terrorism to keep blacks out of your schools. Shit it was only the damn 60's when they damn near had mass coronaries because of black folks being let in. Shit wtf is it with you fucking dishonest motherfuckers. Most of the time blacks were here in america, they'd get beat for reading a godamn book. lol

[Quetzal-X]

I have a problem with specialization - what happens when kids don't know what they want to do. There are a lot of magnet schools here in Miami where there is a certain theme like engineering, health, etc. My kids, like lots of others I'm sure, don't know what they want to do by 8th grade (when you apply for magnet high school). Would you believe that it's not so easy to find a good school that just offers a variety of subjects and lets you pick and choose what you want to take instead of being on a track.


Wasnt it better in the olden days when Whites got ALL of AA's give a ways and freebies? How many years ya figure you whites got ALL the freebies because blacks werent even aware they supposedly had rights? I figure hundreds .

[Nbadan]

I have a problem with specialization - what happens when kids don't know what they want to do

They may not know what they want to do...and some will even decide to change their track late in the game, ...but most kids already know if they want to put in the extra time to be college material....I'm talking about better Universities here....the vocational schools can be where kids can change their track or they can recommit themselves to higher expectations and a greater workload...at the college bound student middle/high school....

[vy65]

yes, really.

Read the briefs in support of UT.

http://www.utexas.edu/vp/irla/Fisher-V-Texas.html

Just about everyone believes there is.

Is this opinion based on your reading of all the briefing and the cited case law? If so, can you explain a little bit more than "yes really?" Or did you just do some googles?

[vy65]

45 of the Fortune 100 companies filed amicus briefs in favor of UT. Military leaders, every Ivy League university, the NY Bar, the federal government, etc. all support affirmative action in college admissions and filed briefs in favor of UT. Sorry, you're laughable "rainbows and unicorns" rebuttal doesn't change that and doesn't make it untrue. :lol

College life at diploma mills is basically what you described. You probably attended one, so that's no surprise. At better colleges, it's considerably different.

Fortune 100 company's have pretty broad based diversity iniatives, so their filing amicus briefs isn't surprising. Nor is it evidence of the substantive merit of diversity based claims. Those corporations desperately want to appeal to softer, liberal social tendencies to offset the perception that they place profits over people, the environment, etc. The same holds true of the military (who draws large swaths of its recruitment from minority populations).

I could be wrong, but from the last time I recall reviewing these issues, there was a strong absence in literature systematically backing the claim that a) diversity improved overall academic achievement for all students or b) substantively improved the conditions of minority students at elite schools. From my own experience, minorities tended to place near or at the bottom of my class, did not assimilate or interact with the larger white student body, and pretty much were viewed as having received special treatment solely on the basis of their race, not their legal skills. This even translated to law review selections, where students with higher first year gpas were passed over in favor of minorities with lower gpas, but with the ability to claim preferred racial status.

[vy65]

AA is another great tool in alleviating the sense of white guilt. It's ability to deliver on the promises of improved academic achievement -- which should be the sole goal in any educational environment -- have not been demonstrated.

[DMX7]

Is this opinion based on your reading of all the briefing and the cited case law? If so, can you explain a little bit more than "yes really?" Or did you just do some googles?

I read many of them -- they're extremely similar for the most part. They're short. Read a couple. I know, that's asking a lot especially after I linked you to them.

[vy65]

I read many of them -- they're extremely similar for the most part. They're short. Read a couple. I know, that's asking a lot especially after I linked you to them.

Sweet, so if you took a look at them, maybe you could give us a synopsis of the argument, based on the case law? I'd love to have your thoughts first before jumping into the briefing.

[DMX7]

Fortune 100 company's have pretty broad based diversity iniatives, so their filing amicus briefs isn't surprising. Nor is it evidence of the substantive merit of diversity based claims. Those corporations desperately want to appeal to softer, liberal social tendencies to offset the perception that they place profits over people, the environment, etc. The same holds true of the military (who draws large swaths of its recruitment from minority populations).


So you think diversity in fortune 100 companies is just essentially just a PR gimmick?

[vy65]

So you think diversity in fortune 100 companies is just essentially just a PR gimmick?

Having been retained by fortune 100 companies, and knowing their engagement requirements for the projects I was involved with, yes. That's anecdotal, but I'd love to hear the evidence to the otherwise.

Where are we on the legal synopsis?

[rmt]

Wasnt it better in the olden days when Whites got ALL of AA's give a ways and freebies? How many years ya figure you whites got ALL the freebies because blacks werent even aware they supposedly had rights? I figure hundreds .


All races are equal except when it comes time to right the sin of slavery. You devils never fucking did right by anyone but your selfish selves. You devils used terrorism to keep blacks out of your schools. Shit it was only the damn 60's when they damn near had mass coronaries because of black folks being let in. Shit wtf is it with you fucking dishonest motherfuckers. Most of the time blacks were here in america, they'd get beat for reading a godamn book. lol

I think you are preaching to the wrong person. My aunt is black, one of the most wonderful women I know who took care of us while my parents worked is black, my best friend was black. I grew up and went to school in a country where over 92% are black - listening to reggae and Michael Jackson. I'm asian - not white.

[DMX7]

Having been retained by fortune 100 companies, and knowing their engagement requirements for the projects I was involved with, yes. That's anecdotal, but I'd love to hear the evidence to the otherwise.

Where are we on the legal synopsis?

You're not getting one from me, lol. If you can't read what I linked you to (where there are plenty of arguments supporting the benefits of AA which was my original claim), then sorry.

Read this or do I need to copy and paste the text too? https://utexas.app.box.com/s/3zfsmlo9729iqd2s84ijonx7cy62i31e

[vy65]

You're not getting one from me, lol. If you can't read what I linked you to (where there are plenty of arguments supporting the benefits of AA which was my original claim), then sorry.

Read this or do I need to copy and paste the text too? https://utexas.app.box.com/s/3zfsmlo9729iqd2s84ijonx7cy62i31e

Cool, so you're either unwilling or unable to give us any legal basis -- based on your reading of the briefs -- for th claim that there's a benefit to diversity as you suggested earlier upstream.

[vy65]

I was asking for an explanation behind the "yes really" claim. saying "read the briefs dummy" isn't responsive.

[DMX7]

saying "read the briefs dummy" isn't responsive.

Cool. Unless you're unable to read even the one brief I linked to you, then it is responsive.

[vy65]

Cool. Unless you're unable to read even the one brief I linked to you, then it is responsive.

I never asked for the briefs, just your interpretation of them and the surrounding case law. Don't see why you're scared of giving me an answer, dummy.

[DMX7]

I never asked for the briefs, just your interpretation of them and the surrounding case law. Don't see why you're scared of giving me an answer, dummy.

Because it's a waste of time. I gave you a link to a brief that contains arguments that mirrors my own. There's absolutely no reason for me to have to walk you through them unless you're too dumb to understand them, dummy.

[Trill Clinton]

675093696384245760

[Winehole23]

hard to argue rights were infringed if Fisher and the other applicants were all qualified:


I don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that Fisher was “unqualified” to attend UT Austin. Fisher had grades and test scores in a range in which some people are accepted to UT, and has gotten a degree from LSU. Maybe UT Austin is so much more rigorous than LSU that Fisher couldn’t have successfully obtained a degree from the former, but good Randy Newman one-liners aside I doubt this is true.


This might seem like a semantic issue, but mischaracterizing the issue this way plays into the hands of opponents of affirmative action. Implicit in Scalia’s questioning and willful distortion of Richard Sander’s research (http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2015/12/gone-fishering/comment-page-1#comment-1785281) is an assumption that the selective and high-demand schools where affirmative action is most relevant are distinguishing between “qualified” and “unqualified” applicants. But this isn’t true. Schools like UT get many more applications from qualified applicants than it has slots. UT is choosing among qualified applicants, not drawing a line between “qualified” and “unqualified” applicants. This makes affirmative action particularly appropriate. There may be atypical circumstances in which an affirmative action program results in a genuinely unqualified person being admitted to a university or given a job, but this is a badly designed program, not a constitutional violation, and there’s no reason to think it’s true of UT in any case.
The author of the most intelligent and substantive critique (https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-241.ZX1.html) of affirmative action in the U.S. Reports is, ironically, an excellent illustration of this distinction. Would Clarence Thomas have been accepted to Yale School based on strictly race-neutral admissions criteria? Probably not. Would have he had been nominated to the Supreme Court is George H.W. Bush did not take race into account? Of course not. Was he “unqualified” for either position? Plainly not — he successfully completed his law degree at Yale and has been a more-than-able Associate Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States whatever one thinks of the substance of his views. And Supreme Court nominations are a case where the argument that presidents are choosing The One Most Qualified Candidate rather than from among a large pool of fully qualified candidates is particularly specious (http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2009/05/rich-white-men-just-cant-catch-a-break) (and, when it comes to arguments such as “Princeton and Yale Law’s Circuit Court judge Sam Alito is qualified and Princeton and Yale Law’s Circuit Court judge Sonia Sotomayor is not,” flatly racist.)


It’s entirely fair game to criticize Fisher’s sense of entitlement, but the issue is not whether Fisher was “qualified” to attend UT. The question is whether Fisher’s rights were violated when UT choose other qualified applicants instead of her. The answer is that they were not. (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/09/affirmative-action-back-before-supreme-court-arguments-against-make-no-sense)

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2015/12/the-qualifications-dodge

[boutons_deux]

For black students at Texas, Supreme Court remarks are a burden added


As a chemical engineering major who aced high school science courses and was a regional leader in the National Society of Black Engineers, becoming a physics tutor at the University of Texas at Austin (http://www.latimes.com/topic/education/colleges-universities/university-of-texas-at-austin-OREDU0000071-topic.html) came easily to Claiborne Jones.But students never seemed to seek his help.

"People I was tutoring would blow me off, as if I didn't know what I was talking about, and ask someone else if it was correct," Jones, 21, said.

Black students at the university, particularly in the sciences, found themselves on the defensive again last week after Justice Antonin Scalia (http://www.latimes.com/topic/crime-law-justice/justice-system/antonin-scalia-PEHST001782-topic.html), during arguments before the U.S. Supreme Court (http://www.latimes.com/topic/crime-law-justice/justice-system/u.s.-supreme-court-ORGOV0000126-topic.html), questioned whether admitting more black students would benefit them or the university. The case before the court, Fisher vs. University of Texas at Austin, is likely to affect the future of affirmative action nationwide.

"We're engaged in research, studying abroad, people are graduating, going on to become doctors and professors. Black students do deserve to be at UT, and we are excelling," said McDonald, 22, who is majoring in education and black studies. "Everyone kind of felt attacked by his remarks."

Sitting next to him in the gallery was Christle Nwora, 21, of Dallas, a fellow senior pre-med major who also took note when Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. (http://www.latimes.com/topic/crime-law-justice/justice-system/john-g.-roberts-jr.-PEPLT00008040-topic.html) asked why diversity matters in science classes.

They started the Twitter hashtag #StayMadAbby — referring to the plaintiff — including their graduation photos, credentials, references to their advanced degrees and the school's trademark burnt orange Longhorn logo.

At the Austin campus, some African American students said Scalia's comments underlined their ongoing challenge to try to feel safe and belong, especially in the sciences.

Jones recalled his first night on campus, when he and some friends were walking down the main drag and a group of guys in a passing van yelled racial expletives.

"That wasn't even the worst thing that happened that year: Students were getting bleach-ballooned," he said, referring to a series of attacks in which water balloons filled with bleach were hurled at black students, prompting protests. At one point, Jones said, a white friend insisted on walking him home for his own safety.

The discomfort was felt not only by students from low-income neighborhoods and urban schools, like Jones, but also those whose parents were wealthier and had earned advanced degrees.

http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-na-black-ut-students-20151213-story.html

Yes, right-wing SCOTUS, America has come a long way since the 1960s, so gut the VRA, this is post-racial America.

[boutons_deux]

Study: Scalia Better Off in “Less Advanced” Court


WASHINGTON — A new study conducted by legal scholars indicates that Justice Antonin Scalia would fare better if he served as a judge at a court that was “less advanced” than the United States Supreme Court.

According to the study, Scalia’s struggles to perform his duties in a competent fashion stem from his being inappropriately placed on a court that is “too demanding” for a person of his limited abilities.

“Forcing Justice Scalia to weigh in on complex legal issues that he lacks the background or aptitude to comprehend is, at the end of the day, cruel,” the study said.

The legal scholars theorized that Scalia would be more likely to thrive in a “lesser court where he does not feel that he is being pushed to hear cases that are too challenging for him.”

“If Scalia were reassigned to a ‘slow track’ institution such as a town traffic court, that would be better for everyone,” the study recommended.

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/study-scalia-better-off-in-less-advanced-court

[DMX7]

He doesn't belong on any court.

[DMC]

I'm against quotas (and any large change tbh) but here's what it teaches kids: Don't spend 300 years enslaving and depriving an entire race else your ancestors will have to someday make reparations.

[spurraider21]

Study: Scalia Better Off in “Less Advanced” Court


WASHINGTON — A new study conducted by legal scholars indicates that Justice Antonin Scalia would fare better if he served as a judge at a court that was “less advanced” than the United States Supreme Court.

According to the study, Scalia’s struggles to perform his duties in a competent fashion stem from his being inappropriately placed on a court that is “too demanding” for a person of his limited abilities.

“Forcing Justice Scalia to weigh in on complex legal issues that he lacks the background or aptitude to comprehend is, at the end of the day, cruel,” the study said.

The legal scholars theorized that Scalia would be more likely to thrive in a “lesser court where he does not feel that he is being pushed to hear cases that are too challenging for him.”

“If Scalia were reassigned to a ‘slow track’ institution such as a town traffic court, that would be better for everyone,” the study recommended.

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/study-scalia-better-off-in-less-advanced-court
:lmao purposely making the URL tiny and off-color so nobody would see it.

like... dude, we clearly know its parody, why do you go to such lengths to hide it?