Suns/Warriors

[coachmac87]

I don't consider myself a homer by any means when it comes to analyzing my sports teams. But this NBA season has been a very interesting start to say the least..obviously due to the Warriors 24 game winning streak to start the season. Congrats to them on that btw it was pretty cool to see and I'm a huge fan of Steph Curry. But I'm from the "210" home of the best franchise in sports in the last 20 years. We've honestly seen it all and honestly we went up against a team IMO that resembles the Warriors. That team was the Steve Nash lead Phoenix Suns. The numbers and play are similar except you can say Warriors are a better defensive team. People forget how good those Suns teams were..they were unbeatable in regular season and everybody loved them. They honestly revolutionized the game of basketball..but they never won a championship...because they went up against the Spurs. A team that played great defense but also were no slouch on the offensive end. Well it seems two similar teams are on the path to meet again. Spurs/Warriors..The Spurs are playing the best defense in the league dating back to the times they faced the Suns. And the Warriors are playing the best offense since those Suns teams....it's pretty crazy and fascinating that these two types of teams can clash again in the WCF. It's gonna be EPIC.

#GSG

[Spurtacular]

Interesting comparison. I'm looking forward at reading analysis from posters who would perhaps do a better job than I.

[playbonner15]

West and Diaw gonna hip check Curry. CIA Pop!

[UNT Eagles 2016]

West and Diaw gonna hip check Curry. CIA Pop!

just West, please. We don't need Boris Horry suspended in critical playoff games

[coachmac87]

The numbers from the 2005 Spurs/Suns is pretty similar to the current Warriors/Spurs

[ginobilized]

Great comparison!

I was at one of those playoff games and the Suns were on fire. The won and shot an ungodly percentage. Stoudemire was the toughest matchup there. Warriors do not have anything like him in his prime. I hope the Spurs stay healthy and strategically dismantle the Dubs like they did the Suns.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Honestly IMO the only 2 things in common between these Warriors and the mid 2000s Suns are that they both play at a fast pace and hit a lot of threes. Other than that I'd say there are far more differences than similarities.

You've mentioned the defense thing - unlike the Suns they not only try but they have great defensive schemes, they move well, they make great rotations and they can play both small and big. Also the Warriors have 2 playmakers on the floor, whereas the Suns relied solely on Nash to create. Nash was never the offensive threat that Steph is and once the ball was out of his hands someone was shooting it. With the Warriors - they move the ball much better as a team and they also have Draymond who helps creating as much or more than Steph. That's a huge difference because if you trapped Nash and he gave it to Amare he'd look to score and score only, while if you do this with Steph the ball goes to Draymond who'd start the ball movement just as well. You could beat the Suns allowing Amare to score, but you can't beat the Warriors in the same way, not even close.

[scanry]

Great comparison!

I was at one of those playoff games and the Suns were on fire. The won and shot an ungodly percentage. Stoudemire was the toughest matchup there. Warriors do not have anything like him in his prime. I hope the Spurs stay healthy and strategically dismantle the Dubs like they did the Suns.

They have the league's best offensive player in Curry.

[baseline bum]

How the fuck are the Sons anything like the Warriors? The Warriors are elite defensively, the Suns didn't even try to play defense. Stoudemire and Nash are about the two worst defensive players I have ever seen.

[Calispursfan11]

How the fuck are the Sons anything like the Warriors? The Warriors are elite defensively, the Suns didn't even try to play defense. Stoudemire and Nash are about the two worst defensive players I have ever seen.

I'm fairly certain neither Stoudemire or Nash play for the Suns anymore. Baseline, you are slipping breh. Mixing present and past like they are relevant to each other...

[SAGirl]

Honestly IMO the only 2 things in common between these Warriors and the mid 2000s Suns are that they both play at a fast pace and hit a lot of threes. Other than that I'd say there are far more differences than similarities.

You've mentioned the defense thing - unlike the Suns they not only try but they have great defensive schemes, they move well, they make great rotations and they can play both small and big. Also the Warriors have 2 playmakers on the floor, whereas the Suns relied solely on Nash to create. Nash was never the offensive threat that Steph is and once the ball was out of his hands someone was shooting it. With the Warriors - they move the ball much better as a team and they also have Draymond who helps creating as much or more than Steph. That's a huge difference because if you trapped Nash and he gave it to Amare he'd look to score and score only, while if you do this with Steph the ball goes to Draymond who'd start the ball movement just as well. You could beat the Suns allowing Amare to score, but you can't beat the Warriors in the same way, not even close.
You could say they are hydra.
They molded Draymond in the Diaw blueprint, and surrounded him with shooters to find the best shot. They stole the Miami model (forward surrounded with shooters), the Spurs 2013-14 model (ball movement and shooters, with Diaw's playmaking taking it to another level) and made it their own to suit their talents.

Defensively they have capable guys at each position and switch and help, are hyperactive. They are a deep team too, so they can throw fresh bodies out there without slowing the pace (a Spurs 2013-14 feature).

However, they remain mostly a jumpshooting team, and have a weakness in that they are too perimeter based to really stop a true scoring big man without doubling him. They had to double Memphis' bigs, but Memphis was doomed bc they could not knock down outside shots. That is just one example.

Despite their defensive metrics and what not, all their best players are perimeter. A big man that can punish them will give them fits, will get Draymond in foul trouble (their playmaker and probably their 2nd best player. From there on, if you play Bogut it changes the dynamic. Once Bogut is in, you have to figure out if you can get away with playing our twin towers. The perimeter guys have to play passing lanes, and contest the 3.

You have to play the famous "wall" defense... stay in front of your man, do not double.

Our nemesis with GSW are shooters coming off screens.

Tough team, but not an impossible task. I believe Kawhi and this team can get it done.

[baseline bum]

I'm fairly certain neither Stoudemire or Nash play for the Suns anymore. Baseline, you are slipping breh. Mixing present and past like they are relevant to each other...

But Nash did play for the Nash led Suns op posted about.

[Fireball]

Warriors are champions ... Suns never were

[TheRemix]

Warriors vs spurs.. the real nba finals

[Spurtacular]

Honestly IMO the only 2 things in common between these Warriors and the mid 2000s Suns are that they both play at a fast pace and hit a lot of threes. Other than that I'd say there are far more differences than similarities.

You've mentioned the defense thing - unlike the Suns they not only try but they have great defensive schemes, they move well, they make great rotations and they can play both small and big. Also the Warriors have 2 playmakers on the floor, whereas the Suns relied solely on Nash to create. Nash was never the offensive threat that Steph is and once the ball was out of his hands someone was shooting it. With the Warriors - they move the ball much better as a team and they also have Draymond who helps creating as much or more than Steph. That's a huge difference because if you trapped Nash and he gave it to Amare he'd look to score and score only, while if you do this with Steph the ball goes to Draymond who'd start the ball movement just as well. You could beat the Suns allowing Amare to score, but you can't beat the Warriors in the same way, not even close.

Agreed. I thought the Suns did a better job of moving the ball around the perimeter though; and the Warriors have nothing that rivals that pick n' roll by Nash and Stoudemire. Nor is Curry getting into the lane like Nash did.

[Spurtacular]

Warriors are champions ... Suns never were

Neither were the 2002 Kings; it doesn't mean I wouldn't take them over the 2016 Warriors.

[ceperez]

just West, please. We don't need Boris Horry suspended in critical playoff games

Boris hip check will not be effective. All that fat will absorb the momentum.

The truth is of course, Spurs could be one hip check away from winning the championship. If this happens, you'll see West ejected but most likely D. Green will be also be ejected!

[ceperez]

just West, please. We don't need Boris Horry suspended in critical playoff games

Boris hip check will not be effective. All that fat will absorb the momentum.

The truth is of course, Spurs could be one hip check away from winning the championship. If this happens, you'll see West ejected but most likely D. Green will be also be ejected!

Spurs will take out GSW by posting up Green and Curry. Place either in foul trouble and the game will be over. The Spurs pace is near slowest in league, that's because they spend a lot of time wearing out the defense with their offense. Suns "7 seconds or less" isn't what the Spurs do, Spurs will take 15-20 seconds off the clock, while their defenders chase players all over the court.

[Fireball]

Neither were the 2002 Kings; it doesn't mean I wouldn't take them over the 2016 Warriors.

I still think you cannot replicate championship DNA ... the Warriors have it and considering their play this season so far I think they are one of the toughest challenges ever for the Spurs.
We have high hopes right now because the Spurs just blow up/out their opponents ... but the schedule was sooo easy that there are just too many question marks if they can compete with a healthy Warriors team.
I am getting more confident ... really look forward the games against the Clips and the Pacers in that regard.

[coachmac87]

Warriors are giving up 102.2 pts per game...

The 05' Suns gave up 103 pts per game...

My point was the Suns teams were GREAT teams who played a style that took the NBA by storm. They probably would've won a title but they ended up playing the team built to beat them.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Warriors are giving up 102.2 pts per game...

The 05' Suns gave up 103 pts per game...

My point was the Suns teams were GREAT teams who played a style that took the NBA by storm. They probably would've won a title but they ended up playing the team built to beat them.
This stat is for all the morons I've been fighting with all along that have been trying to convince me the Warriors have a good defense.


What's next, are they going to try to convince me the Warriors play a pace even faster than the SSOL Suns? :lmao The point differential would indicate that the Warriors have a better offense than those Suns, though, and it's not really even that close. Sorry, Nash.

[YGWHI]

You could say they are hydra.
They molded Draymond in the Diaw blueprint, and surrounded him with shooters to find the best shot. They stole the Miami model (forward surrounded with shooters), the Spurs 2013-14 model (ball movement and shooters, with Diaw's playmaking taking it to another level) and made it their own to suit their talents.

Agree. And all those things with one of the fastest pace and highest efficiency in the league.

2013-14 Boris can't run like the Warriors do, that's why it's amazing how well they adapted those schemes to their personnel.

[GSH]

I'm fairly certain neither Stoudemire or Nash play for the Suns anymore. Baseline, you are slipping breh. Mixing present and past like they are relevant to each other...


WTF? The whole point of the thread is comparing past to present.

You do understand that calling a player GOAT means comparing him to past players, like they are relevant to each other?

I'm rarely speechless, but your comment was just a whole new level of bizarre. I pray that you get the help you need.

[r0drig0lac]

Suns on steroids

[YGWHI]

Tough team, but not an impossible task. I believe Kawhi and this team can get it done.
They will. The Spurs are the toughest matchup for them, we're pretty damn versatile, 3/4 elite post players, 2/3 elite mid range shooters, 3/4 good 3's shooters, we can play bigs in the paint, can play small ball, can opt to shoot from mid range...

[coachmac87]

Suns on steroids

Maybe so but at the time the 05 Suns were fascinating and NOBODY knew what to make of it tbh...Spurs were probably only team in the league to beat them in 7 game series and did so twice on their way to 2 titles.

This Spurs team resembles the 05 philosophy needed to beat the Warriors..so I guess you can say we've dealt with before to some extent

[Mel_13]

Maybe so but at the time the 05 Suns were fascinating and NOBODY knew what to make of it tbh...Spurs were probably only team in the league to beat them in 7 game series and did so twice on their way to 2 titles.

This Spurs team resembles the 05 philosophy needed to beat the Warriors..so I guess you can say we've dealt with before to some extent

SSOL Suns went to three conference finals and lost to three different teams. Those Suns were never better than league average in defense (ranking between 13th and 26th), while the champion Warriors had the league's highest ranked defense. There are some superficial similarities, but not enough to make this a useful model.

[coachmac87]

I
SSOL Suns went to three conference finals and lost to three different teams. Those Suns were never better than league average in defense (ranking between 13th and 26th), while the champion Warriors had the league's highest ranked defense. There are some superficial similarities, but not enough to make this a useful model.

I was strictly comparing 05 Suns/Spurs. And the styles of basketball being played by both teams. High powered high pace offensive team with athletes versus a slower pace defensive minded approach with the Spurs. The Warriors THIS year aren't as good defensively like they were last year.

[Mel_13]

I

I was strictly comparing 05 Suns/Spurs. And the styles of basketball being played by both teams. High powered high pace offensive team with athletes versus a slower pace defensive minded approach with the Spurs. The Warriors THIS year aren't as good defensively like they were last year.

Your post that I quoted made specific reference to multiple Suns teams in the SSOL era.

[Raven]

Those suns were the most obvious fools gold ever

[Venti Quattro]

The Warriors are the defending champions so your comparison holds no weight whatsoever.

[Raven]

I

I was strictly comparing 05 Suns/Spurs. And the styles of basketball being played by both teams. High powered high pace offensive team with athletes versus a slower pace defensive minded approach with the Spurs. The Warriors THIS year aren't as good defensively like they were last year.

Its a bad comparison.

[coachmac87]

Your post that I quoted made specific reference to multiple Suns teams in the SSOL era.

I strictly said 05 Suns. And referenced the 07 team only to make my points if the Suns in 05 or 07 could easily have won the title if they didn't play the Spurs...

[coachmac87]

Those suns were the most obvious fools gold ever

They made it to the WCF against us in 05. And you can say a "hip check" played a huge factor in 07.

I mean those 05, 07 Championship teams were legit..Suns weren't fools gold the just didn't match up well against the Spurs. You can argue THIS Warrior/Spurs could be the same

[Mel_13]

I strictly said 05 Suns. And referenced the 07 team only to make my points if the Suns in 05 or 07 could easily have won the title if they didn't play the Spurs...

So you referenced multiple SSOL teams and I responded to that. Not a problem.

Still think the comparison is superficial at best.

[coachmac87]

The Warriors are the defending champions so your comparison holds no weight whatsoever.

Suns didn't win the title because they played against a team in 05 Spurs that was built to beat them in a 7 game series..

Something that the Warriors could face this year against the Spurs. And yes the Warriors were champs but not playing the Spurs/OKC and injuries to Cavs played a factor in that

[coachmac87]

So you referenced multiple SSOL teams and I responded to that. Not a problem.

Still think the comparison is superficial at best.

It's not superficial...the 05 Spurs defense and THIS year defense is pretty much the same.

Meanwhile you have this offensive juggernaut Suns/Warriors looking unstoppable in regular season. Spurs were the kryptonite in 05...and they are starting to look the same this year for the Warriors

[coachmac87]

Seriously look and compare the numbers from both 05 teams...

[Mel_13]

It's not superficial...the 05 Spurs defense and THIS year defense is pretty much the same.

Meanwhile you have this offensive juggernaut Suns/Warriors looking unstoppable in regular season. Spurs were the kryptonite in 05...and they are starting to look the same this year for the Warriors

The Suns came out of nowhere and surprised everyone. The Warriors are defending champs.

I find the comparison superficial. It's perfectly okay that you disagree. The expression of various opinions is the point of a message board.

[coachmac87]

The Suns came out of nowhere and surprised everyone. The Warriors are defending champs.

I find the comparison superficial. It's perfectly okay that you disagree. The expression of various opinions is the point of a message board.

"Warriors are the champs" yeah because they didn't play against their kryptonite and played against "injured" teams. 05 Suns arguably played against the best championship Spurs team ever. Both strengths of the 05 teams and 15 teams are the same...that 07 Suns team wins the title if they don't lose to us in the semi. They beat the Jazz in WCF and Cavs in Finals..

I guess I just find it fascinating both teams were lead by 2 time MVP 50-40-90 players..I mean there isn't really any similarities at all lol

[Mel_13]

"Warriors are the champs" yeah because they didn't play against their kryptonite and played against "injured" teams. 05 Suns arguably played against the best championship Spurs team ever. Both strengths of the 05 teams and 15 teams are the same...that 07 Suns team wins the title if they don't lose to us in the semi. They beat the Jazz in WCF and Cavs in Finals..

I guess I just find it fascinating both teams were less by 2 time MVP 50-40-90 players..I mean there isn't really any similarities at all lol

You started a thread on a message board. People comment on that thread. Some disagree with you. That's how this works.

[Mel_13]

"Warriors are the champs" yeah because they didn't play against their kryptonite and played against "injured" teams. 05 Suns arguably played against the best championship Spurs team ever. Both strengths of the 05 teams and 15 teams are the same...that 07 Suns team wins the title if they don't lose to us in the semi. They beat the Jazz in WCF and Cavs in Finals..

I guess I just find it fascinating both teams were lead by 2 time MVP 50-40-90 players..I mean there isn't really any similarities at all lol

And you just referenced an SSOL team other than the 2005 team again.

[coachmac87]

And you just referenced an SSOL team other than the 2005 team again.

Do you not understand why?

[coachmac87]

Please elaborate on why you think it's superficial? Cause clearly you can't comprehend my points and you clearly haven't examined the teams I'm comparing. THIS year Spurs/Warriors and 05 Suns/Spurs..

[Mel_13]

Do you not understand why?

Sure I do. Do you not understand why I pointed it out?

[Mel_13]

Please elaborate on why you think it's superficial? Cause clearly you can't comprehend my points and you clearly haven't examined the teams I'm comparing. THIS year Spurs/Warriors and 05 Suns/Spurs..

I already have. You scoffed at my reasons. Restating them won't change that.

[coachmac87]

Sure I do. Do you not understand why I pointed it out?

No you don't because I didn't mention the 07 team until you said I mentioned them...which wasn't the case

[coachmac87]

I already have. You scoffed at my reasons. Restating them won't change that.

So if the Spurs meet the Warriors in WCF does it really matter that the Warriors are the champs when they haven't faced a team like THIS Spurs team? Would they even be the champs if Cavs were somewhat healthy? Congrats on them winning but that doesn't play a factor when facing the Spurs in WCF. It'll be new to them

[Mel_13]

No you don't because I didn't mention the 07 team until you said I mentioned them...which wasn't the case

It most certainly was.

[Mel_13]

So if the Spurs meet the Warriors in WCF does it really matter that the Warriors are the champs when they haven't faced a team like THIS Spurs team? Would they even be the champs if Cavs were somewhat healthy? Congrats on them winning but that doesn't play a factor when facing the Spurs in WCF. It'll be new to them

Even if the 2016 Spurs beat the 2016 Warriors in the playoffs, I'll still consider the similarities to the Spurs/Suns in 2005 to be superficial. Not sure why that bothers you so much. If you were seeking affirmation you should have started a "Duncan is better than Kobe" thread.

[coachmac87]

Even if the 2016 Spurs beat the 2016 Warriors in the playoffs, I'll still consider the similarities to the Spurs/Suns in 2005 to be superficial. Not sure why that bothers you so much. If you were seeking affirmation you should have started a "Duncan is better than Kobe" thread.

It doesn't bother me. I enjoy debating about this tbh. I jus want you to explain why you think it's superficial? Because I don't think you've closely examined the two. You're just saying so becaus the Warriors are the champs?

[DarrinS]

GSW >>>>> those Nash led Suns teams

And it's not even close

[Mel_13]

It doesn't bother me. I enjoy debating about this tbh. I jus want you to explain why you think it's superficial? Because I don't think you've closely examined the two. You're just saying so becaus the Warriors are the champs?

I think that the Warriors are playoff tested and committed to playing on both sides of the ball. The 2005 Suns were neither of those things. Thus my opinion that any statistical similarities are much more superficial than informative. And I did examine those statistics before posting in this thread.

[coachmac87]

GSW >>>>> those Nash led Suns teams

And it's not even close

14 Spurs > 05 Spurs? 05 Spurs > 14 Spurs?

[coachmac87]

I think that the Warriors are playoff tested and committed to playing on both sides of the ball. The 2005 Suns were neither of those things. Thus my opinion that any statistical similarities are much more superficial than informative. And I did examine those statistics before posting in this thread.


Thank you Mel.

[Mel_13]

Thank you Mel.

:bobo

[Spurtacular]

Warriors are giving up 102.2 pts per game...

The 05' Suns gave up 103 pts per game...

My point was the Suns teams were GREAT teams who played a style that took the NBA by storm. They probably would've won a title but they ended up playing the team built to beat them.

And even then, the Spurs were lucky to escape that series. That's the most worried I've been about any series.

[Obstructed_View]

The only thing those two teams have in common are they both scored a lot of points and the media constantly jerked them off 24/7.

A few differences off the top of my head:


The Warriors can play slow. Their fast break is not a gimmick. They play excellent team ball, set good screens and get a ton of points in the paint.

The Warriors have several guys that are excellent defenders, and they play good team defense. They're like the Heat team that got Ray Allen to play defense.

Curry is a true two way player, scores a ton of points and actually deserves his MVP.

The Warriors are super deep, and they can win games without grinding down their starters.

[coachmac87]

Yeah but they were jerked off for good reason. Suns won 62 games that year in a deeper league. They were averaging 110+ pts per game and say what you want about Nash...he was a dominant player at his position. Curry just does it in a different way.

People just shrug off that 05 Suns team because they didn't win a title. But they went up against a PRIME DUNCAN, PRIME MANU and a damn good Tony Parker...id say the 05 team was the best Spurs championship team.

[baseline bum]

Suns didn't win the title because they played against a team in 05 Spurs that was built to beat them in a 7 game series..

Something that the Warriors could face this year against the Spurs. And yes the Warriors were champs but not playing the Spurs/OKC and injuries to Cavs played a factor in that

Detroit would have probably repeated had the Suns knocked the Spurs out.

[baseline bum]

Yeah but they were jerked off for good reason. Suns won 62 games that year in a deeper league. They were averaging 110+ pts per game and say what you want about Nash...he was a dominant player at his position. Curry just does it in a different way.

People just shrug off that 05 Suns team because they didn't win a title. But they went up against a PRIME DUNCAN, PRIME MANU and a damn good Tony Parker...id say the 05 team was the best Spurs championship team.

People shrug off the 05 Suns because they were shit defensively.