Wheaton College professor placed on leave after wearing hijab

[boutons_deux]

A tenured Wheaton College (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/education/colleges-universities/wheaton-college-OREDU0000163-topic.html) professor who donned a traditional headscarf to show solidarity with Muslims as part of her Christian Advent devotion has been placed on administrative leave.Larycia Hawkins, a political science professor at the west suburban college, announced last week that she would wear the veil to show support for Muslims who have been under greater scrutiny since mass shootings in Paris and San Bernardino, Calif.

"I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, like me, a Christian, are people of the book," she posted on Facebook.

But it was that explanation of her gesture that concerned some evangelical Christians, who read her statement as a conflation of Christian and Muslim theology.

"While Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic, we believe there are fundamental differences between the two faiths, including what they teach about God's revelation to humanity, the nature of God, the path to salvation, and the life of prayer," Wheaton College said in a statement.

While Hawkins did not need to seek approval from Wheaton, she did seek advice from the Council on American Islamic Relations, to make sure she did not offend Muslims.

Renner Larson, communications director for CAIR's Chicago chapter, said he was intrigued by her decision.

"There's a lot of misconception about why women wear hijab and this idea that women are forced to wear it," said Larson, who is not Muslim. "For a lot of people it's a very powerful choice, especially in the United States it can be a hard, uncomfortable choice.

"So often women wearing hijab are the targets of attack and hatred because more than anyone else they are so immediately recognizable as Muslim."

Wheaton administrators did not condemn Hawkins' gesture, but said more conversation should have taken place before it was announced. :lol

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-wheaton-college-professor-larycia-hawkins-20151216-story.html

"Wheaton College is a private American four-year Evangelical Protestant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Protestant) Christian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) liberal arts college (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_college)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheaton_College_(Illinois)

hijabs are dangerous to evangelical Sharia.

[Winehole23]

narcissism of small differences, tbh

[Fabbs]

While Hawkins did not need to seek approval from Wheaton, she did seek advice from the Council on American Islamic Relations, to make sure she did not offend Muslims.

So the little ass kisser does approach CAIR to "make sure she did not offend Muslims" but not Wheaton.
GTFO.

[Phenomanul]

We know boutons would rather be killed by a muslim than greeted by a Christian - one who would love him despite his vile hatred for them.

[boutons_deux]

We know boutons would rather be killed by a muslim than greeted by a Christian - one who would love him despite his vile hatred for them.

You Lie

Loving, respecting non-Christians, other than in cheap talk, is not for the evangelical Taliban.

I have no truck with Christians as long as they don't force their Sharia, morals, ethics onto non-Christians.

[Trainwreck2100]

:lol she should have been, next time ask your boss when you want to make a statement.

[boutons_deux]

yeah, she could have asked, but are they punishing her for not asking or for showing CHRISTIAN love and solidarity with persecuted Muslims?

[Phenomanul]

You Lie

Loving, respecting non-Christians, other than in cheap talk, is not for the evangelical Taliban.

I have no truck with Christians as long as they don't force their Sharia, morals, ethics onto non-Christians.

This is the part you simply don't get. What makes your morals and ethics any better as the standard??? In other words, I have every right to cast my vote for whatever I see fit (or whatever best aligns with my own opinions/positions) just as you do for whatever you see fit. You don't see me fussing or pounding the table with my fist over your right to vote how you want to be governed. Democracy wins out. I don't agree with the majority opinion on lots of issues - but that's how the populace has voted. So long as my vote was counted I have to be at peace that it doesn't always end up the way I wanted - even then it doesn't deny me the right to advocate or lobby for change.

Your position however demands that we abstain from voting based on our own personal set of morals/ethics. And if we fail to segregate the our perspectives from our votes THEN somehow we're the intolerant ones. WTH??? Tyranny is best suited for the position that you promote (the "my way or the highway" mentality).

[boutons_deux]

"What makes your morals and ethics any better as the standard"

straw man, I didn't say that.

Ask your Christian supremacist Taliban bubbies why their morals, ethics, their Sharia are better than non-Christians.

I said NOTHING about whom you or anybody else should vote for.

[Phenomanul]

"What makes your morals and ethics any better as the standard"

straw man, I didn't say that.

Ask your Christian supremacist Taliban bubbies why their morals, ethics, their Sharia are better than non-Christians.

I said NOTHING about whom you or anybody else should vote for.

NO but your constant, incessant, whining position that Christians somehow keep their positions to themselves presents a dichotic infeasibility when it comes to how those same people wish to be represented and ultimately governed...

I can lobby for a pro-life position. Just as you can lobby for a pro-abortion position. I've never told you that you didn't have that right.

In your world, however, you've repeatedly supported the position that my right to vote with my conscience is somehow wrong/abhorrent citing the weak jurisdictional umbrella of "separation of church and state" as the basis. IT's another form of tyranny for YOU to dictate that I or any other Christians not be allowed to vote in such a manner. Certainly my ethics and morals shape and factor into how I decide to vote on social issues, or specifically whom to vote for. Again Democracy wins out... and the outcomes are never guaranteed in your favor. You don't seem to get that.

And that's just one example.

[boutons_deux]

NO but your constant, incessant, whining position that Christians somehow keep their positions to themselves presents a dichotic infeasibility when it comes to how those same people wish to be represented and ultimately governed...

I can lobby for a pro-life position. Just as you can lobby for a pro-abortion position. I've never told you that you didn't have that right.

In your world, however, you've repeatedly supported the position that my right to vote with my conscience is somehow wrong/abhorrent citing the weak jurisdictional umbrella of "separation of church and state" as the basis. IT's another form of tyranny for YOU to dictate that I or any other Christians not be allowed to vote in such a manner. Certainly my ethics and morals shape and factor into how I decide to vote on social issues, or specifically whom to vote for. Again Democracy wins out... and the outcomes are never guaranteed in your favor. You don't seem to get that.

And that's just one example.

Christian Taliban supremacist push their morals and ethics and Biblical fairy tales into law, into taxpayers school books, practicing their religion on public property, etc, etc.

The Constitution prohibits religious shit in the secular, public govt, no matter how many Christians vote to have their Sharia enshrined in law for EVERYBODY to follow.

How you vote on social issues is fine, but stop expecting to elect Christian Taliban to write Christian shit into secular govt laws. That's UNConstitutional (but maybe you can get enough Christian Taliban on the Supreme Court to rape the Constitution)

[Phenomanul]

You still don't get it. AND YET YOU LOBBY for BIGGER Government! The government should not be that big in our lives to begin with. The fact that they can dictate that my tax money be used to murder babies against my will shows you that their influence is already far too great.

[boutons_deux]

bigger govt isn't BADDER govt, except to you simpletons sucking down the VRWC propaganda.

I much prefer the govt play big role in American life, than BigCorp, which is the only alternative in a vacuum left by a absent govt.

There's no power other than govt power to restrain the destructive, polluting, predatory, snooping, wealth-sucking BigCorp.

That's why BigCorp tricks you simpletons into "let's all hate and destroy govt"

[rmt]

A tenured Wheaton College (http://www.chicagotribune.com/topic/education/colleges-universities/wheaton-college-OREDU0000163-topic.html) professor who donned a traditional headscarf to show solidarity with Muslims as part of her Christian Advent devotion has been placed on administrative leave.Larycia Hawkins, a political science professor at the west suburban college, announced last week that she would wear the veil to show support for Muslims who have been under greater scrutiny since mass shootings in Paris and San Bernardino, Calif.

"I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, like me, a Christian, are people of the book," she posted on Facebook.

But it was that explanation of her gesture that concerned some evangelical Christians, who read her statement as a conflation of Christian and Muslim theology.

"While Islam and Christianity are both monotheistic, we believe there are fundamental differences between the two faiths, including what they teach about God's revelation to humanity, the nature of God, the path to salvation, and the life of prayer," Wheaton College said in a statement.

While Hawkins did not need to seek approval from Wheaton, she did seek advice from the Council on American Islamic Relations, to make sure she did not offend Muslims.

Renner Larson, communications director for CAIR's Chicago chapter, said he was intrigued by her decision.

"There's a lot of misconception about why women wear hijab and this idea that women are forced to wear it," said Larson, who is not Muslim. "For a lot of people it's a very powerful choice, especially in the United States it can be a hard, uncomfortable choice.

"So often women wearing hijab are the targets of attack and hatred because more than anyone else they are so immediately recognizable as Muslim."

Wheaton administrators did not condemn Hawkins' gesture, but said more conversation should have taken place before it was announced. :lol

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-wheaton-college-professor-larycia-hawkins-20151216-story.html

"Wheaton College is a private American four-year Evangelical Protestant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Protestant) Christian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) liberal arts college (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_arts_college)" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheaton_College_(Illinois)

hijabs are dangerous to evangelical Sharia.

She calls herself a Christian, but as far as I know, the New Testament says that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to God so I don't see her position that Muslims and Christians are "people of the book" - like they are somehow similar in belief. And I don't see why anyone would be doing something (which I'm sure she knew) to irritate their employer. Or if you're not really a Christian or don't believe in their very basic tenets, why work for such an organization?

[boutons_deux]

"Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to God"

ALL religions push that bullshit.

And the various Christian cults hate each other. It's ALL scamming bullshit.

If there is only one God, one Christ, one Bible, why do Christians need so damn many antagonistic cults, sects?

why work? she needs to eat? Does Wheaton require that professors must be hard-core Bible humping literalists? To teach political science?

[ChumpDumper]

She calls herself a Christian, but as far as I know, the New Testament says that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to God so I don't see her position that Muslims and Christians are "people of the book" - like they are somehow similar in belief. And I don't see why anyone would be doing something (which I'm sure she knew) to irritate their employer. Or if you're not really a Christian or don't believe in their very basic tenets, why work for such an organization?So she wouldn't be a Christian if she put on a yarmulke on solidarity with Jews?

https://graftedinelena.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/bush_western_wall.jpg

"Not a Christian."

http://media.sdreader.com/img/photos/2012/09/28/Kishmir_N._Tuchas_Aranald_Reagan_t670.jpg

"Also not a Christian."

[DisAsTerBot]

one more way to divide the masses

[rmt]

"Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to God"

ALL religions push that bullshit.

And the various Christian cults hate each other. It's ALL scamming bullshit.

If there is only one God, one Christ, one Bible, why do Christians need so damn many antagonistic cults, sects?

why work? she needs to eat? Does Wheaton require that professors must be hard-core Bible humping literalists? To teach political science?




I'm just stating what Christians believe. It's a Christian college which I would assume teaches the Christian faith/tenet. I would guess teachers sign some kind of statement to that effect. I think Baylor does so.

[rmt]

So she wouldn't be a Christian if she put on a yarmulke on solidarity with Jews?

https://graftedinelena.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/bush_western_wall.jpg

"Not a Christian."

http://media.sdreader.com/img/photos/2012/09/28/Kishmir_N._Tuchas_Aranald_Reagan_t670.jpg

"Also not a Christian."

Why do you do this? I said nothing about what she wears. A Christian is one who accepts Jesus Christ as his/her Lord and Savior.

[rmt]

On her Facebook: I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, like me, a Christian, are people of the book. And as Pope Francis stated last week, we worship the same God.

Christians believe in the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit.

Islam denies:
1. the Trinity
2. the Father and the Son
3. Deity of Christ

http://www.justforcatholics.org/islam.htm

[boutons_deux]

On her Facebook: I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, like me, a Christian, are people of the book. And as Pope Francis stated last week, we worship the same God.

Christians believe in the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit.

Islam denies:
1. the Trinity
2. the Father and the Son
3. Deity of Christ

http://www.justforcatholics.org/islam.htm

where's your problem? she wanted to express solidarity as a Christian with persecuted Muslims, maybe even have the open-mindedness (rare for Christian Taliban) to respect another religion.

[ChumpDumper]

On her Facebook: I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, like me, a Christian, are people of the book. And as Pope Francis stated last week, we worship the same God.

Christians believe in the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit.

Islam denies:
1. the Trinity
2. the Father and the Son
3. Deity of Christ

http://www.justforcatholics.org/islam.htmMultiple Personality Disorder God is still just one God.

[rmt]

where's your problem? she wanted to express solidarity as a Christian with persecuted Muslims, maybe even have the open-mindedness (rare for Christian Taliban) to respect another religion.

When she spouts stuff that is opposite to what Christians believe, I have to point it out. CHRISTIANS believe in Jesus Christ. Muslims do not worship Jesus Christ.

[ChumpDumper]

When she spouts stuff that is opposite to what Christians believe, I have to point it out. CHRISTIANS believe in Jesus Christ. Muslims do not worship Jesus Christ.Jesus is still God though, right?

[rmt]

Multiple Personality Disorder God is still just one God.

That God includes Jesus Christ, in whom the Muslims do not believe. The New Testament is quite clear:

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)

[ChumpDumper]

That God includes Jesus Christ, in whom the Muslims do not believe. The New Testament is quite clear:

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)But they're the same guy, right?

[rmt]

Jesus is still God though, right?

It's like saying Jews and Christians believe the same thing. Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God.

[rmt]

But they're the same guy, right?

They are three persons in one God.

[ChumpDumper]

It's like saying Jews and Christians believe the same thing. Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Son of God.I'm asking you -- Jesus is still God though, right?

[ChumpDumper]

They are three persons in one God.So, same God.

I don't see the disconnect really. Could easily be the same God for everyone.

[Aztecfan03]

When she spouts stuff that is opposite to what Christians believe, I have to point it out. CHRISTIANS believe in Jesus Christ. Muslims do not worship Jesus Christ.

it's really the same God, the faiths just differ greatly on the details of that God. Her calling Muslims "people of the book" is ridiculous from a supposed Christian, though.

[ChumpDumper]

it's really the same God, the faiths just differ greatly on the details of that God. Her calling Muslims "people of the book" is ridiculous from a supposed Christian, though.Not really. That's what Muslims call Christians too. All has to do with det Abraham.

[Aztecfan03]

Not really. That's what Muslims call Christians too. All has to do with det Abraham.
"the book" can't be both the Bible and the Quran

Muslims are the only people who refer to all of the adherants to any abrahamic religions as people of the book.

[rmt]

I'm asking you -- Jesus is still God though, right?

Jesus is one of three persons in God. The others are the Father and the Holy Spirit.

[ChumpDumper]

"the book" can't be both the Bible and the QuranMaybe "the book" is the Bible in this case.

"The" doesn't have to mean "THE."


Muslims are the only people who refer to all of the adherants to any abrahamic religions as people of the book.Apparently a Christian did. Does it mean she's not Christian anymore?

[ChumpDumper]

Jesus is one of three persons in God. The others are the Father and the Holy Spirit.So they aren't the same person but the same dude?

This is confusing.

[rmt]

So they aren't the same person but the same dude?

This is confusing.

Chump, if you have a sincere desire to learn about Jesus, any Christian will be happy to share his/her faith with you. But if you're baiting, please just give it up. This is not something to joke about.

[ChumpDumper]

Chump, if you have a sincere desire to learn about Jesus, any Christian will be happy to share his/her faith with you. But if you're baiting, please just give it up. This is not something to joke about.It is genuinely confusing when you think about it.

If it's all the same god, is Big G God talking to himself when it's Jesus talking to God?

[Phenomanul]

bigger govt isn't BADDER govt, except to you simpletons sucking down the VRWC propaganda.

I much prefer the govt play big role in American life, than BigCorp, which is the only alternative in a vacuum left by a absent govt.

There's no power other than govt power to restrain the destructive, polluting, predatory, snooping, wealth-sucking BigCorp.

That's why BigCorp tricks you simpletons into "let's all hate and destroy govt"

So GOVERNMENT is only good when it pushes YOUR agenda, YOUR belief system, YOUR ideals... GOT it. IF it doesn't then you would rather (like any simpleton) equate it to barbaric terror groups like the Taliban, or their horrific-ultra restrictive way of life (Sharia). :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

The way I see it, the only Christians you don't hate are the ones that don't wear their Christianity like a badge of honor - in which case anyone could raise the question if they were even Christians to begin with.

I will continue voting the way I see fit - and anytime you complain about Christians lobbying or promoting their own views I will continue to call you out on your tyrannical hypocritical stance (that you would rather we had no such rights at all).

[boutons_deux]

So GOVERNMENT is only good when it pushes YOUR agenda, YOUR belief system, YOUR ideals... GOT it. IF it doesn't then you would rather (like any simpleton) equate it to barbaric terror groups like the Taliban, or their horrific-ultra restrictive way of life (Sharia). :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes

The way I see it, the only Christians you don't hate are the ones that don't wear their Christianity like a badge of honor - in which case anyone could raise the question if they were even Christians to begin with.

I will continue voting the way I see fit - and anytime you complain about Christians lobbying or promoting their own views I will continue to call you out on your tyrannical hypocritical stance (that you would rather we had no such rights at all).

you're fucked up, like most die-hard religionists.

I have an anti-agenda, supporting the govt blocking, Constitutionally, your Christian supremacist agenda. America isn't Christian country, and was not founded as a Christian country.

I don't care if Christians parade around, proudly (pride is a sin in the Bible, "some say" was the Original Sin) Pharisaical-ly with their Christianity as a badge of honor. Just don't push Christianity as a state religion, don't push the Bible into taxpayer funded schools as literally unchallengeable history, science, cosmology. Then I, and 10Ms others, get pissed off.

You can vote however the fuck you want to vote, even vote for Christian Taliban supremacists like Krazy Kruz and his strategy of Christian sharia.

[Phenomanul]

It is genuinely confusing when you think about it.

If it's all the same god, is Big G God talking to himself when it's Jesus talking to God?

Is water, ice, and steam all H2O? Ever heard of the triple point? Where H2O can take on the form of any of those phases?

Another example is our Federal Government system. Judicial, Executive and Legislative branches ALL form part of the government and are considered government entities but their role in the government is different.

The GODHEAD has three different entities that perform distinct roles. They've established the parameters/criteria by which they operate - but any of the entities is all-powerful in a stand-alone context.

You must understand that you are talking about an entity that far transcends our own limitations (in time/space/physical dimensions) as well as our thinking. In fact, our logic cannot fully comprehend HIS state-of-being, HIS greatness, HIS glory, HIS grandeur, HIS purpose, or HIS ways. To suggest that because we can't fully fathom the structure of HIS being as being proof of a flaw in HIS perfect divine nature is like an ant questioning the climate around him (the ant has neither the comprehension, nor the tools, nor the understanding-of-scale to even begin to question "what" weather is - let alone the dynamics that govern it).

[Phenomanul]

you're fucked up, like most die-hard religionists.

I have an anti-agenda, supporting the govt blocking, Constitutionally, your Christian supremacist agenda. America isn't Christian country, and was founded as a Christian country.

I don't care if Christians parade around, proudly (pride is a sin in the Bible, "some say" was the Original Sin) Pharisaical-ly with their Christianity as a badge of honor. Just don't push Christianity as a state religion, don't push the Bible into taxpayer funded schools as literally unchallengeable history, science, cosmology. Then I, and 10Ms others, get pissed off.

You can vote however the fuck you want to vote, even vote for Christian Taliban supremacists like Krazy Kruz and his strategy of Christian sharia.

That's just it: YOU are the most die-hard "religionist" here on this forum. Except YOUR religion is "contempt for all other established religions" (especially Christianity). That you can't see THAT is hypocritical at best - but mainly just sad that you would let it drive you to such bitterness. What's weird is that you would then take a position to defend the violence of ISLAM over Christian ideals (love your neighbor as thyself, turn the other cheek, love thine enemy, etc...).

And it's YOU who have it all twisted up. To state the phrase "wear Christianity like a badge of honor" doesn't mean that Christians that are emblematical about of their beliefs go around "judging or condemning" those that aren't. It is merely an observation that perhaps the latter group hasn't fully surrendered their lives to GOD's purpose because GOD calls us to be "the light of the world" because a "city on a hill cannot be hid". Those that call themselves Christians HENCE should not be ashamed of being an ambassador of CHRIST. If they're not ashamed of HIM, THEN likely (as in, IT LOGICALLY FOLLOWS) they wouldn't hide their allegiance towards JESUS CHRIST. If their allegiance isn't hidden THEN (IT LOGICALLY FOLLOWS) that they wear their Christianity like "a badge of honor". Geeesh... it is really not that hard to understand...!!!

BUT NO, it is conveniently easy for YOU to generalize and clump Christians in a way that equates our opposition to something as hatred for it. Position on homosexuality being exhibit A. I don't condone homosexuality or agree with it, because it is explicitly called abominable by GOD - BUT (and listen closely to this part) that doesn't mean I HATE homosexuals or am unable to LOVE them. It is sooooooooooo freaking easy for you to eat up the great LIE that somehow Christians hate sinners. What's laughable is that you can't understand that a true Christian understands that he himself IS a sinner in dire need of Christ's redemption ("don't worry about the fleck in your brother's eyes when you have a plank sticking out of yours" comes to mind). YES I AM a SINNER. THAT'S WHY I FELLOWSHIP AT CHURCH. THAT'S WHY I PRAY AND SEEK THE LORD. THAT'S WHY I WORSHIP GOD... THAT'S WHY I CONSTANTLY PROFESS THE NEED OF HIS PRESENCE in my life. But somehow all of that offends you because you would rather look down at me under the premise that I am a deluded, ignorant, weak-minded simpleton - rather than as someone who can be a positive impact in the community.

Groups made up by people of your "ilk" are the ones that go and yell things at us when we are at the prisons trying to help the prisoners better their lives, to seek peace and forgiveness in GOD. THEY SAY WE CAN'T DO THAT. THEY would rather we do nothing and let the recidivism rates of inaction promote the vicious circle that entangles criminals - all to the detriment of society. IT is that sort of irrational hatred which I simply have no patience for and YOU embody that position day-in, day-out in this forum. OPEN YOUR EYES to the hypocrisy of your position. IF you want us to "live and let die" THEN you need to let us "live and let die".

[Blake]

So GOVERNMENT is only good when it pushes YOUR agenda, YOUR belief system, YOUR ideals... GOT it.

It's good when church and state are separated.

[Phenomanul]

you're fucked up, like most die-hard religionists.

I have an anti-agenda, supporting the govt blocking, Constitutionally, your Christian supremacist agenda. America isn't Christian country, and was not founded as a Christian country.

I don't care if Christians parade around, proudly (pride is a sin in the Bible, "some say" was the Original Sin) Pharisaical-ly with their Christianity as a badge of honor. Just don't push Christianity as a state religion, don't push the Bible into taxpayer funded schools as literally unchallengeable history, science, cosmology. Then I, and 10Ms others, get pissed off.

You can vote however the fuck you want to vote, even vote for Christian Taliban supremacists like Krazy Kruz and his strategy of Christian sharia.

Forgot to address this tidbit which is invalidated by the very first document issued as a nation.... The Declaration of Independence...

"IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world..."


It's pretty clear to me... that belief in GOD factored heavily into how our nation was constructed and shaped. That you would simply gloss over that... well... that's just convenient.

[Blake]

BUT NO, it is conveniently easy for YOU to generalize and clump Christians in a way that equates our opposition to something as hatred for it. Position on homosexuality being exhibit A. I don't condone homosexuality or agree with it, because it is explicitly called abominable by GOD - BUT (and listen closely to this part) that doesn't mean I HATE homosexuals or am unable to LOVE them.

Excellent topic.

Do you believe it's ok for a Christian baker to deny baking a cake for gays for the sole reason being that it's abominable to his God?

[Blake]

Forgot to address this tidbit which is invalidated by the very first document issued as a nation.... The Declaration of Independence...

"IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.--Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world..."


It's pretty clear to me... that belief in GOD factored heavily into how our nation was constructed and shaped. That you would simply gloss over that... well... that's just convenient.

I don't see the reference to a Christian God there.

[Phenomanul]

Excellent topic.

Do you believe it's ok for a Christian baker to deny baking a cake for gays for the sole reason being that it's abominable to his God?

You and your strawmen.

Do you believe it was right for that couple of gays to sue for over $100,000 because they couldn't get their cake at THAT ONE STORE (being that there were 11 other such stores in the vicinity?) [and in the process drive those business owners into bankruptcy?]... What a great couple!

I don't need to go tit-tat with you. I don't really have the time to start the whole, "I have to answer Blake's posts, Chumps' posts, boutons' posts" and every other person who feels the need to enter the "discussion" simply to throw their barbs into the fray. And then when I miss a post, they get all demonstrative and demanding "Answer my post, damn it!!!". From a practical standpoint, I can't keep up with it all. I just can't.

Have a Merry Christmas! and a Happy New Year with your loved ones Blake. I sincerely mean that (despite our many butting of heads).

[Phenomanul]

I don't see the reference to a Christian God there.

The Christian GOD as described in the Bible... Created man, Created Nature. Endowed man with free-will (Liberty)... The connection is elegantly simple even if not EXPLICIT.

[ChumpDumper]

Is water, ice, and steam all H2O? Ever heard of the triple point? Where H2O can take on the form of any of those phases?

Another example is our Federal Government system. Judicial, Executive and Legislative branches ALL form part of the government and are considered government entities but their role in the government is different.

The GODHEAD has three different entities that perform distinct roles. They've established the parameters/criteria by which they operate - but any of the entities is all-powerful in a stand-alone context.

You must understand that you are talking about an entity that far transcends our own limitations (in time/space/physical dimensions) as well as our thinking. In fact, our logic cannot fully comprehend HIS state-of-being, HIS greatness, HIS glory, HIS grandeur, HIS purpose, or HIS ways. To suggest that because we can't fully fathom the structure of HIS being as being proof of a flaw in HIS perfect divine nature is like an ant questioning the climate around him (the ant has neither the comprehension, nor the tools, nor the understanding-of-scale to even begin to question "what" weather is - let alone the dynamics that govern it).So God intentionally makes himself confusing with his multiple personality shenanigans.

It's just as easy to believe he is Muslim God too. After all, you can't dare to comprehend him.

[Trainwreck2100]

:lol this bitch sites the catholic pope when getting suspended by a protestant institution.

[Phenomanul]

So God intentionally makes himself confusing with his multiple personality shenanigans.

It's just as easy to believe he is Muslim God too. After all, you can't dare to comprehend him.

Well... it's not confusing to me....

You said you wanted a sincere answer. I gave you one. And you retort with your typical derision and dismissiveness.

That said... Have a Merry Christmas! and a Happy New Year with your loved ones ChumpDumper...

[ChumpDumper]

Well... it's not confusing to me....

You said you wanted a sincere answer. I gave you one. And you retort with your typical derision and dismissiveness.I came to the very logical conclusion that since God simply can't be understood by folk like us it's just as easy to believe he's Muslim God in addition to all the God everyone else says he is.

If you try to make up a reason why he shouldn't be, you just don't understand God.

[Blake]

You and your strawmen.

Do you believe it was right for that couple of gays to sue for over $100,000 because they couldn't get their cake at THAT ONE STORE (being that there were 11 other such stores in the vicinity?) [and in the process drive those business owners into bankruptcy?]... What a great couple!

I don't need to go tit-tat with you. I don't really have the time to start the whole, "I have to answer Blake's posts, Chumps' posts, boutons' posts" and every other person who feels the need to enter the "discussion" simply to throw their barbs into the fray. And then when I miss a post, they get all demonstrative and demanding "Answer my post, damn it!!!". From a practical standpoint, I can't keep up with it all. I just can't.

Have a Merry Christmas! and a Happy New Year with your loved ones Blake. I sincerely mean that (despite our many butting of heads).

you need to look up the definition of strawman. I asked you a question for discussion sake; but you do what most messageboard Christians end up doing: get butthurt and throw a hissy fit as they walk out of the thread.

The moral turpitude of the gay couple is irrelevant. I believe they the had the right to sue on grounds of bigoted discrimination.

as an aside, the moral turpitude of the bakery owner is deplorable. There's no "loving the sinner" there. Fuck that hypocritical piece of shit.

[SnakeBoy]

So they aren't the same person but the same dude?

This is confusing.

Seriously? You don't understand the concept of the Trinity?


It is genuinely confusing when you think about it.

If it's all the same god, is Big G God talking to himself when it's Jesus talking to God?

Fully man and fully God...is that too confusing for you?

[Blake]

Seriously? You don't understand the concept of the Trinity?



Fully man and fully God...is that too confusing for you?

God sent part of himself to kill himself because he came up with a strange rule that requires blood sacrifice when rules that he made up get broken.

Perfectly logical stuff.

[boutons_deux]

Perfectly logical stuff.

how about Mary's parthenogenesis for "logical"? which is really the early Church hucksters going full anti-women and denying that Rabbi Christ was the result of filthy human (female) sex.

[SnakeBoy]

God sent part of himself to kill himself because he came up with a strange rule that requires blood sacrifice when rules that he made up get broken.

Perfectly logical stuff.

You think Jesus committed suicide?

[Phenomanul]

I came to the very logical conclusion that since God simply can't be understood by folk like us it's just as easy to believe he's Muslim God in addition to all the God everyone else says he is.

If you try to make up a reason why he shouldn't be, you just don't understand God.

Who's logic? Your own?

And don't lump me with your "us" crowd. I do understand it. It's simple for me. Can my father be both a father, a son and a husband? CERTAINLY. Do his actions under each of those roles differ? CERTAINLY. AND YET... He is still ONE and the same person.

SIMPLE. LOGIC. REALLY.

You make it "hard" only out of convenience... Thinking that GOD's grandeur relative to us, is a fault on HIS perfect nature is silly at best... You don't wish to understand because it suits your general disbelief on all such matters not to. And that's ok, if you genuinely feel that way... just don't be disingenuous about it.

[ChumpDumper]

Seriously? You don't understand the concept of the Trinity?Sure. Multiple Personality Disorder God.




Fully man and fully God...is that too confusing for you?Sure. I see plenty of people who talk to themselves around Austin.

I'm not going to worship any of them.

[ChumpDumper]

Who's logic? Your own?

And don't lump me with your "us" crowd. I do understand it. It's simple for me. Can my father be both a father, a son and a husband? CERTAINLY. Do his actions under each of those roles differ? CERTAINLY. AND YET... He is still ONE and the same person.

SIMPLE. LOGIC. REALLY.

You make it "hard" only out of convenience... Thinking that GOD's grandeur relative to us, is a fault on HIS perfect nature is silly at best... You don't wish to understand because it suits your general disbelief on all such matters not to. And that's ok, if you genuinely feel that way... just don't be disingenuous about it.So he can be Muslim God too.

Cool.

[SnakeBoy]

Sure. Multiple Personality Disorder God.



Sure. I see plenty of people who talk to themselves around Austin.

I'm not going to worship any of them.

lol making yourself look semi retarded isn't your normal trolling style. It's good that you're adding some variety to your life though.

[boutons_deux]

Here's one prof that you paranoid rightwingnuts would like and defend

College Moves To Fire Sandy Hook Truther Who Allegedly Harassed Victim's Family

Florida Atlantic University recommended Wednesday that a professor who insists the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre never happened be terminated after the parents of one of the victims accused him of harassment, according to a CBS affiliate (http://miami.cbslocal.com/2015/12/16/fau-aims-to-fire-professor-who-said-sandy-hook-shooting-was-hoax/).

James Tracy, an associate professor in FAU's School of Communication & Multimedia Studies, has 10 days to appeal the university's decision, according to WFOR's report.

The termination notice came almost a week after the parents of Noah Pozner, a 6 year-old who was killed in the shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, published an op-ed in the Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/commentary/sfl-on-sandy-hook-anniversary-two-parents-target-fau-professor-who-taunts-family-victims-20151210-story.html) that accused Tracy of harassing them for proof that their son was once alive.

Lenny and Veronique Pozner called for repercussions for Tracy's actions from the university in the op-ed, which was published on the third anniversary of the shooting that left 26 people, including 20 children, dead.
"FAU has a civic responsibility to ensure that it does not contribute to the ongoing persecution of the countless Americans who’ve lost their loved ones to high-profile acts of violence," they wrote.

The university had previously reprimanded Tracy in 2013 for posting on his personal blog that the Sandy Hook shooting was likely staged. The university said at the time that Tracy didn't make it clear enough that he was not speaking on the college's behalf, according to the Sun Sentinel (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/education/fl-fau-fires-james-tracy-20151216-story.html).

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/james-tracy-sandy-hook-truther?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29

[Phenomanul]

you need to look up the definition of strawman. I asked you a question for discussion sake; but you do what most messageboard Christians end up doing: get butthurt and throw a hissy fit as they walk out of the thread.

The moral turpitude of the gay couple is irrelevant. I believe they the had the right to sue on grounds of bigoted discrimination.

as an aside, the moral turpitude of the bakery owner is deplorable. There's no "loving the sinner" there. Fuck that hypocritical piece of shit.


1) It's a strawman - because we weren't discussing the gay couple who chose to sue the baker. You wanted to erect an argument that would be easy for you to topple down given that you are basing it on ease at which anyone can pick at the corrupted sinful nature of man (in this case the baker - he, like all of us is imperfect). The baker was not the embodiment of the argument I was making. Hence by knocking him down (specifically his behavior) you feel you are knocking down my original argument - which is a stretch at best.

2) LOL at your infatuation with the word butthurt...

3) I didn't throw a "hissy fit". I simply responded that the logistics of me trying to respond to everyone's posts is too much for me manage with everything else on my plate. I don't see you chastising boutons for his constant hissy fits. He is the first person that comes to mind when I hear of "Tourette's Syndrome". He is mad at everything, everyone - but above all republicans and Christians... doubly if they're both.

Again, Merry Christmas!!!

[Phenomanul]

So he can be Muslim God too.

Cool.

You're disingenuously watering it down to suit yourself (again).

NO... The GOD of the Bible is not Allah of the Q'ran. If you actually read both texts side by side you would CLEARLY see this. Sorry, I can't do the reading for you.

[ChumpDumper]

lol making yourself look semi retarded isn't your normal trolling style. It's good that you're adding some variety to your life though.Multiple Personality Disorder God is a pretty retarded concept tbh. It's good that Christians added some variety to their lives though.

[ChumpDumper]

You're disingenuously watering it down to suit yourself (again).

NO... The GOD of the Bible is not Allah of the Q'ran. If you actually read both texts side by side you would CLEARLY see this. Sorry, I can't do the reading for you.Why not?

You can't limit God to that one book. You can't understand everything the old man is up to. You're a fool if you think you can.

[Phenomanul]

Here's one prof that you paranoid rightwingnuts would like and defend

College Moves To Fire Sandy Hook Truther Who Allegedly Harassed Victim's Family

Florida Atlantic University recommended Wednesday that a professor who insists the 2012 Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre never happened be terminated after the parents of one of the victims accused him of harassment, according to a CBS affiliate (http://miami.cbslocal.com/2015/12/16/fau-aims-to-fire-professor-who-said-sandy-hook-shooting-was-hoax/).

James Tracy, an associate professor in FAU's School of Communication & Multimedia Studies, has 10 days to appeal the university's decision, according to WFOR's report.

The termination notice came almost a week after the parents of Noah Pozner, a 6 year-old who was killed in the shooting in Newtown, Connecticut, published an op-ed in the Fort Lauderdale Sun Sentinel (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/commentary/sfl-on-sandy-hook-anniversary-two-parents-target-fau-professor-who-taunts-family-victims-20151210-story.html) that accused Tracy of harassing them for proof that their son was once alive.

Lenny and Veronique Pozner called for repercussions for Tracy's actions from the university in the op-ed, which was published on the third anniversary of the shooting that left 26 people, including 20 children, dead.
"FAU has a civic responsibility to ensure that it does not contribute to the ongoing persecution of the countless Americans who’ve lost their loved ones to high-profile acts of violence," they wrote.

The university had previously reprimanded Tracy in 2013 for posting on his personal blog that the Sandy Hook shooting was likely staged. The university said at the time that Tracy didn't make it clear enough that he was not speaking on the college's behalf, according to the Sun Sentinel (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/education/fl-fau-fires-james-tracy-20151216-story.html).

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/james-tracy-sandy-hook-truther?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29


Playing on your "jump to conclusions mat" again boutons?

[SnakeBoy]

Multiple Personality Disorder God is a pretty retarded concept tbh. It's good that Christians added some variety to their lives though.

Stickin with it huh? I respect your commitment. Is this just a Christmas special thing or can we look forward to more after New Years?

[ChumpDumper]

Stickin with it huh? I respect your commitment. Is this just a Christmas special thing or can we look forward to more after New Years?Religious people stick with their stupid beliefs. I respect their commitment.

[Phenomanul]

Why not?

You can't limit God to that one book. You can't understand everything the old man is up to. You're a fool if you think you can.

Now you're just stretching the argument.

The last book of the Biblical canon... The Book of Revelation states that:

"(18) I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; (19) and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

To have another, entirely different REVELATION about GOD's nature with an entirely different eschatology - one which points to characters from the Judaic and Christian texts BUT in entirely different light would run counter to prior revelations about HIS nature. This isn't a Tobey Maguire --> Andrew Garfield rescripting of characters either. GOD's nature is entirely different in the Qur'an when compared against the Bible.

[Blake]

You think Jesus committed suicide?

Well if we're under the assumption that Bible God can see the future, then yeah.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

On her Facebook: I stand in religious solidarity with Muslims because they, like me, a Christian, are people of the book. And as Pope Francis stated last week, we worship the same God.

Christians believe in the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit.

Islam denies:
1. the Trinity
2. the Father and the Son
3. Deity of Christ

http://www.justforcatholics.org/islam.htm

So did the majority of the Mediterranean before Paul then Constantine and their cronies got involved.

Once Nicaea was created they tried to play thought police for the entire world legitimizing Paul's proselytization and version of Jesus. The nature of Jesus and everything else was widely disputed at those first councils. Rome consolidated power along with Nicaea though and then systemically obliterated any apparent conflicting idea.

Book burnings were common. Libraries around the region were burned including the one in Alexandria. All works on rotational motion, foci were destroyed because they conflicted with their flat earth theory. Ultimately bishops that did not fall in line were marginalized and in cases regarding the nature of Jesus snuffed out.

Reading the gospels and how Matthew starts out with genealogy and bullshit. It's so obviously contrived.

Bible: claims that Joseph left at the behest of angels because Herod was personally after him
More likely reality: He was one of thousands of Jews who fled Judea when Herod invaded.

Bible: God knocks up Mary
More likely reality: Joseph has sex with Mary sometime before they decide to return to Judea. Perhaps in celebration of the news of Herod's death when they decide to return to Judea.

Bible: All kinds of people throw a big party for his birthday.
More likely reality: Jesus is born on the road still a refugee before they can return to temple. This is unacceptable to the priests and they refuse to allow him to perform rites. He would not have been allowed to marry in their temple. Puts communion in perspective for me.

Bible: John immediately called Jesus master.
More likely reality: In the city where Joseph worked he could learn the trade but they would not let him work nor find a wife. He instead left the city and took up with John who was by the nearby river playing water shaman and starting a movement in the countryside. John taught him said anti-Pharisee shamanism. John started the movement converting judean farmers out by the river.

Bible: Jesus was already master when John went to prison.
More likely reality: This was Jesus big break. He was John's top dog at that point and now started to lead. He starts expanding and going to Galilee continuing to convert people. He starts doing John's rituals in the lake out there and hits the jackpot converting the head of the fisherman group who was tired of paying the pharisees their catch too.

The religion at this point would be infinitely appealing to the local populace. Herod had brought the Roman's with him and the Pharisees couldn't do a lot of their property confiscations under Roman law. Jesus basically was saying "Don't go to the temple on sabbath and instead have supper with us. "Take your offering and join with the 100's of others. We have tons of fish and farm produce!"

John the Baptist himself seemed able to write and they converted plenty of people that could. Matthew was a tax collector as well and he seemed to follow Jesus around and write down anytime he seemed to say anything prophetic. The Muslims did the same thing with the Hadith.

Anyway at this point he's a regional celebrity in Judea and Galilee so he goes back to Jerusalem and confronts his old tormentors famously. He ends up breaking Roman Law in the confrontation and ultimately is crucified.

How you get from that to the Bible with it's multiple required sacrifices for salvation and authoritarianism is an interesting story too.

[Blake]

1) It's a strawman - because we weren't discussing the gay couple who chose to sue the baker. You wanted to erect an argument that would be easy for you to topple down given that you are basing it on ease at which anyone can pick at the corrupted sinful nature of man (in this case the baker - he, like all of us is imperfect). The baker was not the embodiment of the argument I was making. Hence by knocking him down (specifically his behavior) you feel you are knocking down my original argument - which is a stretch at best.

I asked for your opinion on it. That's all. A question isn't an argument in most cases, definitely not in this one.

In the midst of your avalanche of words, I forgot why I asked for it......and I'm not going back to look for it because I know how it'll end, so we'll let it die.



2) LOL at your infatuation with the word butthurt...

3) I didn't throw a "hissy fit". I simply responded that the logistics of me trying to respond to everyone's posts is too much for me manage with everything else on my plate. I don't see you chastising boutons for his constant hissy fits. He is the first person that comes to mind when I hear of "Tourette's Syndrome". He is mad at everything, everyone - but above all republicans and Christians... doubly if they're both.

Again, Merry Christmas!!!

:lol you've thrown more messageboard hissy fits than I care to count.

:madrun again merry Christmas dammit!!!!!!!!!

[ChumpDumper]

Now you're just stretching the argument.

The last book of the Biblical canon... The Book of Revelation states that:

"(18) I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; (19) and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

To have another, entirely different REVELATION about GOD's nature with an entirely different eschatology - one which points to characters from the Judaic and Christian texts BUT in entirely different light would run counter to prior revelations about HIS nature. This isn't a Tobey Maguire --> Andrew Garfield rescripting of characters either. GOD's nature is entirely different in the Qur'an when compared against the Bible.His nature is also pretty inconsistent within them Bible, so I don't see your point.

[boutons_deux]

Wheaton College says view of Islam, not hijab, got Christian teacher suspended

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-wheaton-college-professor-larycia-hawkins-20151216-story.html

[Aztecfan03]

Wheaton College says view of Islam, not hijab, got Christian teacher suspended

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/18/us/chicago-pays-millions-but-punishes-few-in-police-killings.html
that's what i expected.

btw, Your link is about something different.

[MultiTroll]

You're disingenuously watering it down to suit yourself (again).
Has Sophist Chump posted images of his Sophist god?

[boutons_deux]

that's what i expected. Your link is about something different.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-wheaton-college-professor-larycia-hawkins-20151216-story.html

[ChumpDumper]

Has Sophist Chump posted images of his Sophist god?You don't know what that word means.

[Blake]

Has Sophist Chump posted images of his Sophist god?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jesusface.jpg

[MultiTroll]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/jesusface.jpg
That is who Sophist Chump worships?

[ChumpDumper]

You still don't know what sophist means.

[TeyshaBlue]

I like Irish Spring, or in a pinch, Old Spice soaphists.

[MultiTroll]

I suppose she got $$$ to leave. :rolleyes

Professor, Christian college 'part ways' after controversy over head scarf
http://static-news-wus.s-msn.com/sc/9b/e151e5.gif http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BBktrs2.img?h=24&w=24&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=t&l=f&f=png
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/professor-christian-college-part-ways-after-controversy-over-head-scarf/ar-BBpd5H4?ocid=spartandhp