Bashar al-Assad’s crimes against humanity, caught on camera

[RandomGuy]

LIKE many refugees, Caesar had terrible tales to tell when he slipped out of Syria in August 2013. Less typically he also had pictures to document his story: 53,275 of them, to be exact. From shortly after the eruption of civil war in the spring of 2011 until his flight, Caesar (a pseudonym) worked for government security forces as a forensic photographer. The photos he took, and surreptitiously copied, were of thousands of corpses. Some were of fallen soldiers or war victims, but most were of young men who had spent their last days in the dungeons and torture chambers of the Syrian regime.

The pictures show that thousands of prisoners died of fatal neglect, vicious abuse or straightforward murder by beatings or gunshots. Some images reveal groups of naked, emaciated bodies, each tagged with numbers, splayed on the dirt floor of a hospital garage. But because Caesar entrusted his grisly trove to Syrian opposition groups that publicised the atrocities via a London law firm hired by the government of Qatar, which is hostile to the Syrian regime, some have questioned its authenticity. “You can bring photographs from anyone and say this is torture,” said Bashar al-Assad, Syria’s president, in an interview earlier this year. “So it’s all allegations without evidence.”

Such doubts should now be laid to rest. Following a six-month investigation that included dozens of interviews with former prisoners, defectors who had worked in Syrian military hospitals or intelligence agencies, forensic experts and families of the disappeared, Human Rights Watch (HRW), an independent watchdog group, says it is satisfied that the photos are indeed genuine. In a report published on December 16th it says that Caesar’s work suggests that Syrian officials should be tried for crimes against humanity.

Among other confirmatory evidence, HRW researchers traced the cases of 27 individual victims back to their families, matching Caesar’s pictures with family photos and tallying the dates and places of their arrest against details recorded by Caesar. Forensic analysis of pictures revealed not only telltale signs of starvation, severe skin infections and bruising, but of “chronic venous insufficiency in the lower extremities”, the medical term for legs swollen by being forced to stand for long periods, a detail that confirms former prisoners’ stories of crowding so severe that being taken out for torture was seen as a welcome chance for fresh air. Numerous families also testified to paying government officials extortionate bribes for news of imprisoned relatives, only to discover from the pictures that they had long been dead.

Judging from the picture sets, which often include several of the same corpse, it appears that Caesar photographed more than 6,000 dead prisoners. These represent most, but not all, of those he witnessed during his shifts at two military hospitals in the Syrian capital, Damascus, over a 27-month period. But Syria’s war has lasted more than twice that long. Damascus, where there are other military hospitals that similarly ‘processed’ prisoners’ corpses, holds just a quarter of the country’s people. The full scale of the carnage in Mr Assad’s prisons may never be known.

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21684204-trove-pictures-atrocious-abuse-pronounced-genuine-bashar-al-assads

[Wild Cobra]

So?

Do you think who will replace Assad is any better? Do you think the people would accept a Western Puppet that you would approve of?

[boutons_deux]

"regime change" worked wonderfully in Iraq, so why not do it again in Syria AND Iran (these are the neocon targets to establish US hegemony in the Middle East)

[ChumpDumper]

lol WC really lovers murderous dictators when a Democrat is President.

[Wild Cobra]

lol WC really lovers murderous dictators when a Democrat is President.

No, I just understand that it is often best to keep the evil you known, rather than changing for an unknown evil. History, time and again, has shown nearly all attempts at regime change to make things worse. not better.

I'm sorry you are too dumb to see that.

[hater]

WC with them truth nukes.

These posters here think the world is black and white like in a Disney space epic :lol

Just look at Idlib the Rebel "liberated" city. It's Sharia law and women have to be covered Taliban style. :lmao

Look at the Al Sham rebel group. Called by US their biggest ally in Syria. Al Sham is also allied with Alqaeda and said Syria better becoma an Islamic State or else :lol

[ChumpDumper]

No, I just understand that it is often best to keep the evil you known, rather than changing for an unknown evil. History, time and again, has shown nearly all attempts at regime change to make things worse. not better.

I'm sorry you are too dumb to see that.You were for getting rid of Saddam Hussein tho.

Who was President then?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

WC with them truth nukes.

These posters here think the world is black and white like in a Disney space epic :lol

Just look at Idlib the Rebel "liberated" city. It's Sharia law and women have to be covered Taliban style. :lmao

Look at the Al Sham rebel group. Called by US their biggest ally in Syria. Al Sham is also allied with Alqaeda and said Syria better becoma an Islamic State or else :lol

GO RUSSIA GO!!

I take your posts now find the subject matter and add keyword "russia." Nothing that says we are allied with al-Sham but instead something saying that is who Russia is currently bombing.

Thanks, Boris. Patronizing WC was a nice touch. I liked that.

[Wild Cobra]

You were for getting rid of Saddam Hussein tho.

Who was President then?
My God.

How many times must a person give for their reason before it sticks? That was a different situation. I'm not going to bother explaining, because it won't matter to a troll like you.

[ChumpDumper]

My God.

How many times must a person give for their reason before it sticks? That was a different situation. I'm not going to bother explaining, because it won't matter to a troll like you.Right -- a Republican was President so it was alright with you.

No need to explain.

[hater]

GO RUSSIA GO!!

I take your posts now find the subject matter and add keyword "russia." Nothing that says we are allied with al-Sham but instead something saying that is who Russia is currently bombing.

Thanks, Boris. Patronizing WC was a nice touch. I liked that.

This thread has nothing to do with Russia tbh. Stop obsessing.

Of course Al Sham are our allies. We been arming them and they are the most powerful of the so called "moderate" groups. Read uo on it. You can find info on it even in CIA mouthpieces WSJ and NYT

[FuzzyLumpkins]

This thread has nothing to do with Russia tbh. Stop obsessing.

Of course Al Sham are our allies. We been arming them and they are the most powerful of the so called "moderate" groups. Read uo on it. You can find info on it even in CIA mouthpieces WSJ and NYT

I read on NYT how al-Sham in August said that they would be willing to work with western powers. No media outles is doing as you claim other than Russian TV.

I get it. Why get new material when you can just use someone else's but this shit is exceptionally weak.

[Wild Cobra]

Right -- a Republican was President so it was alright with you.

No need to explain.

Yes, no need to explain your confirmation bias that leads you to incorrect assumptions.

[Wild Cobra]

Yes, no need to explain your confirmation bias that leads you to incorrect assumptions.

How many countries did Assad invade?

How many UN resolutions did he ignore?

What potential threat is he seen at to the Western world?

[baseline bum]

CROFL now Republican Cobra cares about the UN

[Wild Cobra]

CROFL now Republican Cobra cares about the UN
No I really don't. However, those I am debating do.

I was in the military during the first gulf war, at USEUCOM. I've seen some rather interesting things during that time. The only reason we didn't take out Saddam then, was because of the fear of destabilizing Iraq like what has now happened. we got him so sign agreements, that he reneged on. then after 911, we couldn't let him to continue the flagrant disregard, for the terms that kept us from going into Baghdad then.

You guys really need to get a better grip on history on the topic, instead of the news bites by pundits that were against Bush.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/USEUCOM.svg/768px-USEUCOM.svg.png

[baseline bum]

The only reason we didn't take out Saddam then, was because of the fear of destabilizing Iraq like what has now happened


You mean what happened in 2003

[ChumpDumper]

But that was OK because Bush.

Got the logo to prove it.

[Wild Cobra]

You mean what happened in 2003

It didn't fall apart till recently. Iraq was doing well until we left.

[Wild Cobra]

But that was OK because Bush.

Got the logo to prove it.
Dammit.

Where did my troll spray go?

[baseline bum]

It didn't fall apart till recently. Iraq was doing well until we left.

It fell apart in 2003 son

[ChumpDumper]

Nah, we just needed to kill more people and build more nation.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

How many countries did Assad invade?

How many UN resolutions did he ignore?

What potential threat is he seen at to the Western world?

What grants him legitimacy to rule? His own army couped against him not us.

[angrydude]

What grants him legitimacy to rule? His own army couped against him not us.

How about the self-evident fact that he's still ruling? That's all the legitimacy any ruler ever has.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

How about the self-evident fact that he's still ruling? That's all the legitimacy any ruler ever has.

You familiar with Social Contract or the Rights of Man?

[boutons_deux]

You familiar with Social Contract or the Rights of Man?

USA has never demanded that stuff from the murderous dictators USA has installed and supported over the decades.

[hater]

I read on NYT how al-Sham in August said that they would be willing to work with western powers. No media outles is doing as you claim other than Russian TV.

I get it. Why get new material when you can just use someone else's but this shit is exceptionally weak.

Of course they are willing to work with West if West commits to stop Russia from pounding that ass.

Al Sham met with all other rebel factions in Saudi Las week. They quit the talks early because they were not happy where the conversation was leading (a possible cease fire). They also issued a statement saying Syria and all of it must become .an Islamic State ruled by Sharia law. Or else fuck the peace :lol

I posted that entire statement here tbh

[hater]

Here it is again for those who missed it

Al Sham is an Al Qaeda ally as well as ally of the West:
Ahrar al-Sham commander Abu Khalid al-Suri once proclaiming his allegiance to al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri.

Ahrar al-Sham, a band of Islamist rebels who have fought with al Qaeda will be allowed to join the next round of negotiations in Saudi

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/qatar-rules-military-intervention-syria-151029190901348.html
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/12/04/will-an-al-qaeda-ally-be-a-peacemaker-in-syria/

A former Nusra fighter who has now left the war said Nusra and Ahrar once had strong relations.

"All I know is that Nusra sees Ahrar as their source for weapons, especially in some battles," he said. "They are moving away from military work and putting their strength in administrating liberated areas."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-syria-crisis-ahrar-insight-idUSKCN0RM0EZ20150922



Al Sham's recent pullout of peace talks and Statement regarding Syria Islamic State:
A key Syrian opposition group, Ahrar al-Sham, has withdrawn from a Saudi Arabia-hosted conference to try to unite the factions fighting against the Syrian government before potential talks with representatives of President Bashar al-Assad.

The armed rebel group announced it was quitting the three-day Riyadh-based talks on Thursday because the meeting "had given top key roles to the National Coordination Committee and other figures who are considered supporters of the regime."

Largest “moderate” group in Syria calls for “an Islamic state” in country, Sharia law imposed in Northern Aleppo
their statement:
1. All Iranian and Russian military personnel must leave Syria.

2.The Syrian Arab Army (SAA) should be disbanded, along with their paramilitary units – they reference the Shabiha.

3. All of Syria shall be united – no partition.

4. Syria will become an Islamic state.

5. No negotiations with the Syrian Government.

6. Fighting ISIS is secondary because rebels have lost family members because of the war with the Syrian Army.

http://off-guardian.org/2015/12/10/largest-moderate-group-in-syria-calls-for-an-islamic-state-in-country-sharia-law-imposed-in-northern-aleppo/

Go terrorists I guess :lol

[RandomGuy]

So?

Do you think who will replace Assad is any better? Do you think the people would accept a Western Puppet that you would approve of?

Didn't really have a "so". I think Syria as a nation is pretty much finished, at least in my lifetime.
I don't think there is much of an alternative to Assad, given the Russian/Iranian/Hezbollah support.

I don't expect anyone that I would really approve of.

Thorny problem. Be happy to hear your solution, if you have one, because I have a hard time seeing how this is should play out. Lots of bad options.

[RandomGuy]

No, I just understand that it is often best to keep the evil you known, rather than changing for an unknown evil. History, time and again, has shown nearly all attempts at regime change to make things worse. not better.

I'm sorry you are too dumb to see that.

So you admit that overthrowing Saddam was fucktarded? I not sure I am following you here.

[RandomGuy]

Right -- a Republican was President so it was alright with you.

No need to explain.

Pretty much. Not that you will ever get Wild Cobra to admit that. Easier to play the victim game than to pony up an explanation.

[RandomGuy]

It didn't fall apart till recently. Iraq was doing well until we left.

Iraq was doing great until a Democrat became president. :rolleyes

[RandomGuy]

WC with them truth nukes.

These posters here think the world is black and white like in a Disney space epic :lol

Just look at Idlib the Rebel "liberated" city. It's Sharia law and women have to be covered Taliban style. :lmao

Look at the Al Sham rebel group. Called by US their biggest ally in Syria. Al Sham is also allied with Alqaeda and said Syria better becoma an Islamic State or else :lol

So do you think Assad is better than ISIS? Seems like both are intent on murdering just about everybody, as are the moderate rebels.

What is your preferred result here? Do you even have one?

[baseline bum]

So do you think Assad is better than ISIS? Seems like both are intent on murdering just about everybody, as are the moderate rebels.

What is your preferred result here? Do you even have one?

I know my preferred result is Assad stays in power, I'd much rather see a secular than Islamic dictator. Even better that it's not a secular US puppet so that Russia can be the lightning rod blamed by the jihadi faggots.

[DarrinS]

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/kerry-assad-syria-peace-talks-216911

[baseline bum]

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/kerry-assad-syria-peace-talks-216911

Fuck that shit, just hand Syria over to ISIS?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Didn't really have a "so". I think Syria as a nation is pretty much finished, at least in my lifetime.
I don't think there is much of an alternative to Assad, given the Russian/Iranian/Hezbollah support.

I don't expect anyone that I would really approve of.

Thorny problem. Be happy to hear your solution, if you have one, because I have a hard time seeing how this is should play out. Lots of bad options.

The word out of the Russian camps is that they are floating a deal where they take Assad and his family, no Hague, and democratic UN transition. Arab League says they are fine with that.

MB will obviously be a major player but unlike Iraq this is actually the historic Kurdish homeland and they will have a significant political presence. Turkey won't like it but ultimately the PKK types will leave the hills once again. They've been suppressed for over a century and I think as a people compared to their contemporaries they show marked restraint.

[hater]

So do you think Assad is better than ISIS? Seems like both are intent on murdering just about everybody, as are the moderate rebels.

What is your preferred result here? Do you even have one?

Of course he is better. He ruled for decades a secular Syria where Christians, Muslims and even Jews lived peacefully. I been there beautify place.

Are yu seriously comparing Assad to ISIS???? :wow

[hater]

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/12/kerry-assad-syria-peace-talks-216911

Dubya is having a cozy retirement away from his war crimes. So will Obomber and Shillary btw.

Besides. Assad is not going anywhere anytime soon. As long as Russian air force is there tbqh.

[Dirk Oneanddoneski]

I know my preferred result is Assad stays in power, I'd much rather see a secular than Islamic dictator. Even better that it's not a secular US puppet so that Russia can be the lightning rod blamed by the jihadi faggots.

I thought that was the new and correct plan or did something change since Tuesday? http://nypost.com/2015/12/16/america-surrenders-on-assad-and-putin-wins-again/

[SnakeBoy]

So do you think Assad is better than ISIS? Seems like both are intent on murdering just about everybody, as are the moderate rebels.

What is your preferred result here? Do you even have one?

Go to the 3 minute mark to see current life in Damascus under Assad

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/inside-assads-syria/

You got a better option than Assad?

[RandomGuy]

Go to the 3 minute mark to see current life in Damascus under Assad

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/inside-assads-syria/

You got a better option than Assad?

See above, already mostly answered.

Short answer: No, not while Russia and Iran are still propping him up. No viable alternative will emerge. Anybody who might be worth a shit has already fled for their lives in all likelihood.

As I said above, a difficult intractable problem. I do get some schadenfruede out of watching Russia get bogged down in the ME, though.

[RandomGuy]

Of course he is better. He ruled for decades a secular Syria where Christians, Muslims and even Jews lived peacefully. I been there beautify place.

Are yu seriously comparing Assad to ISIS???? :wow

Yes. See the OP. They are both morally repugnant, ISIS more so.

He was better than ISIS, but has done some shitty things to cling to power, something you seem to be less than honest about admitting to.

Why is that?

[SnakeBoy]

See above, already mostly answered.

Short answer: No, not while Russia and Iran are still propping him up. No viable alternative will emerge. Anybody who might be worth a shit has already fled for their lives in all likelihood.

As I said above, a difficult intractable problem. I do get some schadenfruede out of watching Russia get bogged down in the ME, though.

Yeah death, destruction & chaos are enjoyable things to watch.

[angrydude]

ISIS will disappear the second Assad is overthrown and not a second sooner. Then they'll create the next bogeyman on Saudi Arabia's hitlist.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's amusing that when a dem is in power the local GOP supports our foreign enemies. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend as US foreign policy has been slow to learn so has our local GOP groupthink.

[boutons_deux]

ISIS will disappear the second Assad is overthrown and not a second sooner. Then they'll create the next bogeyman on Saudi Arabia's hitlist.

ISIS will not disappear if Assad leaves.

ISIS wants Syrian land as part of their caliphate.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ISIS will disappear the second Assad is overthrown and not a second sooner. Then they'll create the next bogeyman on Saudi Arabia's hitlist.

Sorry but there have been two areas that UN has declared as nation states where no such nation exists. Nobody gives a shit about Somalia. All of the other Arabian revolutions led to democratic regime change like in west africa or violent repression, Iran and Saudi Arabia. Syria's army couped. It is what it is.

A power vacuum in the old ottoman province of Levant that we fragmented to shoehorn in Israel isn't a boogeyman. They are even using the same battle calls that the Ottoman's used to call jihadis when the Duke of Austria and the Czar's came over 300 years ago. The Hadith and what it represents has even entered the US consciousness because they don't want to call suspicion to their own holy books.

It's a nice cognitive dissonance stew. I need someone else to tell me how it isn't a war of ideology again.

[hater]

ISIS will disappear the second Assad is overthrown and not a second sooner. Then they'll create the next bogeyman on Saudi Arabia's hitlist.

That's what DOD is banking on. Unfortunately that's not how thinks work out. Al Qaeda did not dissapear after Afghanistan. Taliban did not dissapear after Affhanistan 2.\

They keep assembling these Frankenstein monsters thinking they will turn them off after the job is done. The West still doesn't realize these Frankensteins don't go away. They come back and turn against their creator

[hater]

Yes. See the OP. They are both morally repugnant, ISIS more so.

He was better than ISIS, but has done some shitty things to cling to power, something you seem to be less than honest about admitting to.

Why is that?

Plenty of dictators have clinged to power in a similar way and were supported by he USA.

Just look at Yemen. Their president was ousted and Saudi/US have been bombing the shit out of Yemen killing thousands of civilians and children. Helping him cling to power. Where is the outrage regarding the Saudi crimes against humanity in Yemen??? With full support from the US.


Maybe Ill go ahead and man a thread about it. Oh Wai I already did :lol

Smh hypocrites

[vy65]

Seems like both are intent on murdering just about everybody

Everybody?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Plenty of dictators have clinged to power in a similar way and were supported by he USA.

Just look at Yemen. Their president was ousted and Saudi/US have been bombing the shit out of Yemen killing thousands of civilians and children. Helping him cling to power. Where is the outrage regarding the Saudi crimes against humanity in Yemen??? With full support from the US.


Maybe Ill go ahead and man a thread about it. Oh Wai I already did :lol

Smh hypocrites

All that and no mention of Iran setting up proxies there. How novel.

[hater]

All that and no mention of Iran setting up proxies there. How novel.

and Saudi does not setup proxies in Syria?

:rolleyes

[hater]

Everybody?

:lol Apparently Assad is the second coming of Count Dracula :lol

[FuzzyLumpkins]

and Saudi does not setup proxies in Syria?

:rolleyes

they have proxies in yemen too. that is besides the point.

you think that this will disguise your obvious lack of objectivity?

[hater]

they have proxies in yemen too. that is besides the point.

you think that this will disguise your obvious lack of objectivity?

Who has proxies in Yemen. Saudi? Hell no they have their direct air force bombing civilians and their occupation army killing children there

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Who has proxies in Yemen. Saudi? Hell no they have their direct air force bombing civilians and their occupation army killing children there

Just because they use their own air force does not mean that there are no Sunni arabs in Yemen. Your dissembling into nuance is poorly done.

[Wild Cobra]

So you admit that overthrowing Saddam was fucktarded? I not sure I am following you here.

Correct.

You are not following me. Maybe if for once in your life, you would stop assuming what people mean, and actually consider what they write, you would understand.

[Wild Cobra]

Iraq was doing great until a Democrat became president. :rolleyes

See.

There you go again. Assuming things not said. Confirmation Bias in full throttle!

My God. You and the others here are such losers.

[Wild Cobra]

Fuck that shit, just hand Syria over to ISIS?

Agreed.

If we attack anyone over there, it should be ISIS.

[Wild Cobra]

Of course he is better. He ruled for decades a secular Syria where Christians, Muslims and even Jews lived peacefully. I been there beautify place.

Are yu seriously comparing Assad to ISIS???? :wow

Good luck getting past his confirmation bias.

[Wild Cobra]

Go to the 3 minute mark to see current life in Damascus under Assad

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/inside-assads-syria/

You got a better option than Assad?
Good find.

Those wanting to get rid of the likes of Assad, Qaddafi, etc. Only cherry pick the brutal justice against terrorist, and claim the terrorists are ordinary citizens just protesting.

The western lie shouldn't be believed.

[baseline bum]

Good find.

Those wanting to get rid of the likes of Assad, Qaddafi, etc. Only cherry pick the brutal justice against terrorist, and claim the terrorists are ordinary citizens just protesting.

The western lie shouldn't be believed.

And Saddam.

[Wild Cobra]

And Saddam.
Saddam didn't treat his people as well, but I don't make the claim we went into Iraq for humanitarian reasons. That's a liberal strawman.

I have stated why we went into Iraq on several occasions. It was for far different reasons than anything happening in Middle east countries since. I supported Iraq for those reasons, and have never supported regime change simply because we don't like a different culture's laws and justice.

[baseline bum]

Saddam didn't treat his people as well, but I don't make the claim we went into Iraq for humanitarian reasons. That's a liberal strawman.

I have stated why we went into Iraq on several occasions. It was for far different reasons than anything happening in Middle east countries since. I supported Iraq for those reasons, and have never supported regime change simply because we don't like a different culture's laws and justice.

You supported Iraq because it was Bush's war.

[Wild Cobra]

You supported Iraq because it was Bush's war.

Not true at all.

As long as you hold on to such misconceptions, there is no point in me reiterating why I supported it.

[baseline bum]

Not true at all.

As long as you hold on to such misconceptions, there is no point in me reiterating why I supported it.

You supported it because you're a diehard Republican, it's pretty obvious son.

[Wild Cobra]

You supported it because you're a diehard Republican, it's pretty obvious son.

Not true either.

Are you trying to prove yourself an idiot? making all these invalid assumptions?

[baseline bum]

Not true either.

Are you trying to prove yourself an idiot? making all these invalid assumptions?

Right, Republican Cobra

[Wild Cobra]

Right, Republican Cobra

I'm a libertarian. Not a republican.

Strike 3... You're out!

[baseline bum]

I'm a libertarian. Not a republican.

Strike 3... You're out!

We all believe you Republican Cobra

[Wild Cobra]

We all believe you Republican Cobra

You are all stupid.

[baseline bum]

You are all stupid.

OK Republican Cobra

[boutons_deux]

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/12/19/world/middleeast/SUB-SYRIA/SUB-SYRIA-articleLarge.jpg

http://static01.nyt.com/images/2015/12/19/world/19Syria-web/19Syria-web-articleLarge.jpg

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/19/world/middleeast/syria-talks-isis.html?_r=0

[mingus]

For whatever reasons he was for it Operation Iraqi Freedom was a huge mistake with really bad consequences for the people living in the region and around the world. IMO, the fate of that region was decided the moment we invaded Iraq.

Would keeping a large presence there have helped? I doubt it. ISIS still forms, if not in the Iraqi vaccum because of close proximity to US ground forces, then in one of the since then handful of other vacuums. Then, the frontlines get moved to those areas, and another war in the ME ensues for a decade. And we'd go right back to where we started. It's a never ending "game" of wack-a-mole/terrorist if we stay there.

By leaving we've taken the burden/toll of fighting terrorism virtually alone off of us and put needed burden/toll on other Arabs. It shifted war from being a "U.S. vs Muslim" (that's how terrorists propagandized it anyway to great effect) to a Muslim & West vs. Muslim Extremist war. That's a shift that needed to happen and I don't see it happening had Obama continued the occupation. So it was a good move. (EDIT: having said that, I don't think the shift was ever seen by Obama or ctually a part of his "grand plan." He probably thought Iraq was actually stable enough to leave and that we could pretty much turn the page there and see Iraq make progress without us, or some shit like that. So I'll credit him with making a good decision out ignorance).

The other thing about it is, we're probably never going to have an ideal ally in the ME. We'll virtually always disagree on Israel with them. And there's always gonna be terrorism coming out of the region on account of that too. Being that Israel is a free, thriving democracy, I think we'd be dumb to abandon them. But alliance with Israel and alliance with other Muslim-majority countries is not mutually exclusive. We've got those alliances already to prove it. Awkward and tenuous as they might be on the issue of Israel, the decimation of Israel isn't on the table. Whoever rises up to power in these vaccuums and fills the voids hopefully they see the bigger picture.

[Wild Cobra]

For whatever reasons he was for it Operation Iraqi Freedom was a huge mistake with really bad consequences for the people living in the region and around the world. IMO, the fate of that region was decided the moment we invaded Iraq.

I partially agree with you. What gets me though, is people still support our meddling in the ME after seeing the fallout of the Iraq war. If we get past the right or wrong of Iraq, it is definitely stupid to support what we have and are doing in Libya, Syria, etc. The strong leaders that we all hate, knew how to keep the terrorists in check. In the name of peace, we made the world worse yet.

Why can't people learn from past mistakes?

[mingus]

The problem is what we see as forming alliances or ties, extremists view as meddling even when what we do doesn't even personally affect them. I don't believe in nation building, but I don't believe in adapting to their definition of what "meddling" actually is. That's because to them, we're infidels. Whether it's through military, political or economical ties or cultural influence, or Israel, we're meddling. To these guys, they're fighting the Holy War, Muslims vs. Christian Crusaders. They're living out an end times prophecy.

That idea has to be shat on completely by the rest of the world. We can fight that war, but we can't be the face of it like with Iraq. Pretty much everything we should do as far as helping filling these voids with non-extremists needs to be done in conjunction with an Arab league nations, which would have to come from opposite geopolitical sides, putting those differences away, and on the sidelines (but where we can still help significantly).

[pgardn]

There always has to be a good guy and a bad guy. It makes foreign policy easy.

Good luck with this in the Middle East hater.

[boutons_deux]

There always has to be a good guy and a bad guy. It makes foreign policy easy.

Good luck with this in the Middle East hater.

I don't need no steenkin luck.

Repugs are overwhelmingly, INARGUABLY the Bad Guys for invading Iraq for oil.

[hater]

Putin said it best. Tbh he told the West "you think you are using these groups buts its probably the other way around. They are using you. You think they are savages but they might be smarter than you and you are playing with fire"

[pgardn]

Putin said it best. Tbh he told the West "you think you are using these groups buts its probably the other way around. They are using you. You think they are savages but they might be smarter than you and you are playing with fire"

So he enters Syria and gets a plane blown up...

[hater]

Russian FM Lavrov: "it(US) looks like a cat who wants to catch the fish but is afraid to get its feet wet"

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Putin is an autocrat in a one party state with a press dominated by his politbureau. him commenting on it being easier to get support for getting troop deployed is amusing.

Boris is doing a poor job of propping up the Russian position. Last time I checked they were trying to negotiate so that Assad wouldn't be executed. REgime change looks more and more likely.

[hater]

Yet. Him and Mr Lavrov are dropping truth nukes on US strategy every single day.

[Wild Cobra]

Russian FM Lavrov: "it(US) looks like a cat who wants to catch the fish but is afraid to get its feet wet"

LOL...

Explains Obama pretty good!

[boutons_deux]

LOL...

Explains Obama pretty good!

diskless Repugs love to spill American military blood that is not their owns families' blood, and don't care about the blood of poor white, blacks, browns. Enriching the MIC and its investors is also main motivation.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Yet. Him and Mr Lavrov are dropping truth nukes on US strategy every single day.

And outside of you posting their takes here what effect has it had? We've discussed Putin's strategic situation already.

German's Poles and Latvians in the North. Turks Brits, Americans, and the French to the south. If you were quoting the Chinese foreign minister it might be interesting.

[Ignignokt]

Daily Reminder: Random Cuck Guy has a wife who used to post on here under the alias (Summers). She once admitted to watching BBC porn. They have a kid together. Ignore Degenerate threads, Ignore Degenerate Posts, Ignore Degenerate Posters.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I sense a meltdown coming on.

[Winehole23]

horrible as Assad is, we knew as early as 2013 that any viable moderate opposition had vanished and that we were arming extremists in Syria.

Sy Hersh with the scuttlebutt:


Barack Obama’s repeated insistence that Bashar al-Assad must leave office – and that there are ‘moderate’ rebel groups in Syria capable of defeating him – has in recent years provoked quiet dissent, and even overt opposition, among some of the most senior officers on the Pentagon’s Joint Staff. Their criticism has focused on what they see as the administration’s fixation on Assad’s primary ally, Vladimir Putin. In their view, Obama is captive to Cold War thinking about Russia and China, and hasn’t adjusted his stance on Syria to the fact both countries share Washington’s anxiety about the spread of terrorism in and beyond Syria; like Washington, they believe that Islamic State must be stopped.


The military’s resistance dates back to the summer of 2013, when a highly classified assessment, put together by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, then led by General Martin Dempsey, forecast that the fall of the Assad regime would lead to chaos and, potentially, to Syria’s takeover by jihadi extremists, much as was then happening in Libya. A former senior adviser to the Joint Chiefs told me that the document was an ‘all-source’ appraisal, drawing on information from signals, satellite and human intelligence, and took a dim view of the Obama administration’s insistence on continuing to finance and arm the so-called moderate rebel groups. By then, the CIA had been conspiring for more than a year with allies in the UK, Saudi Arabia and Qatar to ship guns and goods – to be used for the overthrow of Assad – from Libya, via Turkey, into Syria. The new intelligence estimate singled out Turkey as a major impediment to Obama’s Syria policy. The document showed, the adviser said, ‘that what was started as a covert US programme to arm and support the moderate rebels fighting Assad had been co-opted by Turkey, and had morphed into an across-the-board technical, arms and logistical programme for all of the opposition, including Jabhat al-Nusra and Islamic State. The so-called moderates had evaporated and the Free Syrian Army was a rump group stationed at an airbase in Turkey.’ The assessment was bleak: there was no viable ‘moderate’ opposition to Assad, and the US was arming extremists.


Lieutenant General Michael Flynn, director of the DIA between 2012 and 2014, confirmed that his agency had sent a constant stream of classified warnings to the civilian leadership about the dire consequences of toppling Assad. The jihadists, he said, were in control of the opposition. Turkey wasn’t doing enough to stop the smuggling of foreign fighters and weapons across the border. ‘If the American public saw the intelligence we were producing daily, at the most sensitive level, they would go ballistic,’ Flynn told me. ‘We understood Isis’s long-term strategy and its campaign plans, and we also discussed the fact that Turkey was looking the other way when it came to the growth of the Islamic State inside Syria.’ The DIA’s reporting, he said, ‘got enormous pushback’ from the Obama administration. ‘I felt that they did not want to hear the truth.’

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

[Winehole23]

RG: isn't it possible Assad is preferable to to the present alternatives?

[Winehole23]

the details on US/Syria relations are eye-opening. worth a read.

[Winehole23]

General Dempsey and his colleagues on the Joint Chiefs of Staff kept their dissent out of bureaucratic channels, and survived in office. General Michael Flynn did not. ‘Flynn incurred the wrath of the White House by insisting on telling the truth about Syria,’ said Patrick Lang, a retired army colonel who served for nearly a decade as the chief Middle East civilian intelligence officer for the DIA. ‘He thought truth was the best thing and they shoved him out. He wouldn’t shut up.’ Flynn told me his problems went beyond Syria. ‘I was shaking things up at the DIA – and not just moving deckchairs on the Titanic. It was radical reform. I felt that the civilian leadership did not want to hear the truth. I suffered for it, but I’m OK with that.’ In a recent interview in Der Spiegel, Flynn was blunt about Russia’s entry into the Syrian war: ‘We have to work constructively with Russia. Whether we like it or not, Russia made a decision to be there and to act militarily. They are there, and this has dramatically changed the dynamic. So you can’t say Russia is bad; they have to go home. It’s not going to happen. Get real.’

[hater]

Read that Hersh piece. A lot of it makes some sense based on the leaked documents and comments by various Pentagon heads.

I also agree with Hersh premise that it was a good thing Pentagon went behind Obombers back to strike a deal with Assad/Putin

[hater]

This also explains a lot why Mccain and that other faggot raised up a storm and even travelled to Syria and Iraq in support of the terrorists

[boutons_deux]

RG: isn't it possible Assad is preferable to to the present alternatives?

USA "regime changing" in the Middle East and North Africa has been huge success, going back to Iran in 1953, and then Chile 1973, etc, etc. Why stop now?

[diego]

USA "regime changing" in the Middle East and North Africa has been huge success, going back to Iran in 1953, and then Chile 1973, etc, etc. Why stop now?

Furthermore and to the point of the OP, since when has the US cared about evidence of crimes against humanity? They had more than enough evidence to bury pinochet when he was arrested by Spain but waited for him to die to release it, even when his regime killed us citizens, in Chile and in Washington DC. They protected their guy, like usual, crimes against humanity be damned

[pgardn]

Furthermore and to the point of the OP, since when has the US cared about evidence of crimes against humanity? They had more than enough evidence to bury pinochet when he was arrested by Spain but waited for him to die to release it, even when his regime killed us citizens, in Chile and in Washington DC. They protected their guy, like usual, crimes against humanity be damned

So why are we so insistent on human rights violations in China? We clearly pick and choose our battles on human rights. When we think we have some leverage, we have acted. Again, it's simplistic to say we don't ever give a shit. Mainly because it's not true.

[diego]

So why are we so insistent on human rights violations in China? We clearly pick and choose our battles on human rights. When we think we have some leverage, we have acted. Again, it's simplistic to say we don't ever give a shit. Mainly because it's not true.

You answered yourself, US cares about leverage vs opponents, not crimes against humanity.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Furthermore and to the point of the OP, since when has the US cared about evidence of crimes against humanity? They had more than enough evidence to bury pinochet when he was arrested by Spain but waited for him to die to release it, even when his regime killed us citizens, in Chile and in Washington DC. They protected their guy, like usual, crimes against humanity be damned

Kissinger getting the peace prize is the most ironic incident of the modern era.

[hater]

Obama getting it is as bad IMO

[FuzzyLumpkins]

RG: isn't it possible Assad is preferable to to the present alternatives?

As opposed to the Kurds or FSA? I don't think so. Syria is different then Iraq when we invaded. When we put the Baathists in power in 1919 they held it in a tight grip for most of a century in Iraq.

Coptic in Syria are a much smaller relative minority as opposed to the Sunni baathists. Additionally. the FSA and Kurds are both secular political entities in a new Syria whereas Iraq had no similar dynamic.

Sure the fundamentalist sunni and shia groups are there as well but they are mostly foreigners as opposed to the town vs town warfare that happened in Iraq's power vaccuum.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

You answered yourself, US cares about leverage vs opponents, not crimes against humanity.

pragmatism almost always wins over sentiment and want in armed conflict.

[CosmicCowboy]

pragmatism almost always wins over sentiment and want in armed conflict.

Doesn't even have to be armed conflict. Saudi Arabia consistently has more public beheadings than ISIS and you never hear a peep out of the US over those....

[FuzzyLumpkins]

horrible as Assad is, we knew as early as 2013 that any viable moderate opposition had vanished and that we were arming extremists in Syria.

Sy Hersh with the scuttlebutt:

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military

:lol based on hearsay about a supposed 'highly classified' document relayed via an already ancillary participant with an apparent axe to grind talking about the state of things 2.5 years ago?

I know for a fact that while the FSA had that training facility in Turkey, they still were entrenched in positions South of Damascus and throughout the western portion of the country.

I prefer this more recent verifiable account mentioning the current disposition of all forces on the ground.


Kabalan pointed out that the meeting received support from the United States, Russia, Turkey, and most other major players in the conflict—except Iran, which fears the anti-Iranian sentiment of the opposition. The Riyadh meeting hosted both opposition and armed groups, making this the first time armed groups, such as Jaysh al-Islam (JI) and Ahrar al-Sham (AS), participate in negotiations. Kabalan hoped that the opposition will agree on a broadly defined political solution and find a way to unify their message.


Barakat opened the discussion by reminding the audience that the civil war in Syria will soon enter its fifth year, with up to 250,000 people dead and half the Syrian population displaced. Recent multilateral meetings in Vienna have demonstrated renewed diplomatic determination to negotiate peace for Syria, but significant differences remain between the conflict's principal power-brokers. Barakat began by asking the panelists how the meeting in Riyadh with Syrian opposition groups differs from previous efforts.

Kabalan pointed out that the meeting received support from the United States, Russia, Turkey, and most other major players in the conflict—except Iran, which fears the anti-Iranian sentiment of the opposition. The Riyadh meeting hosted both opposition and armed groups, making this the first time armed groups, such as Jaysh al-Islam (JI) and Ahrar al-Sham (AS), participate in negotiations. Kabalan hoped that the opposition will agree on a broadly defined political solution and find a way to unify their message.

Lister added that the meeting in Riyadh marks a shift in Western policy towards many Syrian armed groups. The West now recognizes that, despite their ideology, these groups are too popular and powerful to be excluded from negotiations. He noted that the Vienna talks will be qualitatively more serious than prior negotiations and will coincide with a nationwide ceasefire. It is logistically impossible to impose such a ceasefire without including main armed groups such as JI and AS. Lister, therefore, urged for the inclusion of more armed groups among opposition representatives.

Bonsey highlighted what he sees as the difference between armed Islamic revolutionary factions such as JI and AS and armed Salafi-jihadi groups such as the Islamic State group (IS) and Nusra Front (NF). Unlike Salafi-jihadis, he believes that JI and AS acknowledge the right of Syrians to choose their own government, would uphold an inclusive approach to non-Muslim minorities, and would not pursue a transnational agenda.


Bonsey offered a quick summary of the Kurdish scene, explaining that Kurdish forces have consolidated large portions of northern Syria. Their main players are the Abdullah Öcalan-linked Partiya Yekîtiya Demokrat (PYD) on one hand, and a disparate group of Kurdish parties—which coalesced with Masoud Barzani’s party in Iraq to form the Kurdistan National Council (KNC)—on the other. There’s a rift between these two players. He added that this is an interesting time for the Kurdish movement. They consider themselves neutral, opposing Assad and the Islamists; allying with Iran and Russia and the United States; and having difficult relations with Arabs and Turks. The United States now holds leverage over the PYD’s armed fighters, which it should use, Bonsey argued.

http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/markaz/posts/2015/12/22-event-summary-outside-actors-in-syria-alhashemi

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Here an embedded reporter estimates that while the desertions due to mostly lack of pay the FSA is still about 35k strong.

This is their description of FSA in 2013 when Hersh describes them as a rump group in Turkey and onwards:


The Daraa province began its armed struggle when small, local groups came together to defend themselves and protect peaceful demonstrators. The first direct conflict with the regime’s army was over its attempt to enter Daraa on 25 April 2011. Despite being poorly equipped and ill-prepared, these small groups were able to delay the conquest of Daraa for a whole week. These small, local groups evolved to dominate the revolutionary scene by the beginning of its second year, under the name of the Free Syrian Army (FSA). The FSA began with attacks on small and isolated military checkpoints, such as police stations and outposts in the western countryside. It soon developed in early 2013 to attack larger military areas, such as barracks in the western region and battalions in the eastern region, and some barriers that cut off roads to Daraa al-Balad. The FSA’s greatest achievement was liberating the 38th Brigade in Saida and seizing its large munitions store on 27 March 2013.

Successive victories included vital areas like the Old Customs area and massive areas of Daraa City. In 2014, the FSA liberated strategic hills in the western countryside, including al-Jabiya, Tal al-Jumou and Tal al-Hara, followed by the 82nd Brigade, which paved the way for liberating the key western cities of al-Shaykh Saad, al-Shaykh Miskeen, Nawa, and opening the road towards Inkhil and Jasim. The FSA then extended its territory towards al-Quneitra, seizing important areas necessary to connect with western Damascus. It gained full control of the Syrian border with Israel along the Golan Heights. In 2015, it seized the Shia-dominated Busra al-Sham, which had been the centre of Lebanese Hezbollah’s operations. In a sudden and surprising operation and the largest military and economic blow to date, the regime lost the Nasib border crossing and the free trade zone between Jordan and Syria. This was followed by an attack that resulted in the sudden collapse the 52nd Brigade, which had been considered one of the most important defence lines for regime forces in Daraa and one of the largest brigades across Syria.

The FSA now controls more than sixty-five per cent of the province.(1) Under major public pressure, the opposition launched “Operation Southern Storm” to liberate the city of Daraa; however, they were unable to meet this goal. Thereafter, the opposition shifted its priority to the western rural areas of the Daraa province in order to lift the siege on western Ghouta. The regime has maintained a siege on western Ghouta for years, so at the end of September 2015, the southern armed opposition launched a new battle, “Give Glad Tidings to the Patient”, which has resulted in successive victories, including the liberation of Tanja Squadron and several strategic hillsides, such as Tal Ahmar and Tal “UN”. This shift in tactic is intended to stifle regime forces in Quneitira and open the door for the opposition to reach Khan al-Shaykh in rural Damascus.


Announced in February 2014, this faction is considered the strongest and most significant influence in terms of numbers (in excess of 30,000 fighters), the quality of its armament, capabilities and geographic spread.(2) It consists of a loose assembly of forty-nine factions without a central command or solid organisational structure, mostly concentrated in Daraa and al-Quneitra, and partly extending to the Damascus countryside and al-Qalamoun. These factions all receive support from the Military Operations Center (MOC) of the supporting countries independently,(3) at varying degrees and according to shifting criteria.(4)

The Southern Front has been unable to organise itself under a unified military command with a strong institutional framework. Rather, it has remained in the form of fragile and loose alliances falling under a singular umbrella. Even the announcement of a joint command on 15 May 2015 did not materialise into tangible changes on the ground in terms of organisation or effectiveness. In addition, significant factions publicly raised complaints and disputes due to their exclusion, expressing resentment about how the election took place and the mechanisms of candidate selection.(5)

These factions depend on on geographic compatibility, pressure on the field, ideological convergence or purely pragmatic considerations in order to form their alliances. They have been affected by delays, failure to mobilise, changes in the field or political and personal disputes. The foremost of these alliances are:

A. Tahaluf Suqour al-Janoub (Hawks of the South)

Announced on 27 December 2014, this coalition is concentrated geographically in Daraa City and areas east of the city. It comprises four factions which formed a joint operations room to coordinate their military operations. Factions include Jaish al-Yarmouk (Yarmouk Army), which is considered one of the most effective players in terms of numbers and equipment. Its leader, Bashar al-Zoubi, is a charismatic figure with good public relations, and he adopts moderately religious speech. The alliance also includes Fallujat Horan Brigade and Osoud al-Sunna. In addition, it includes the 18 March Division, which is made up of six factions united geographically and on the frontlines of Daraa City under the command of dissident Colonel Khalid al-Dahni. This alliance is characterised by its massive breakthroughs and experience in urban warfare.


B. Al-Jaish al-Awwal (The First Army)

This assembly of about 10,000 fighters was established on 1 January 2015 under the command of dissident Colonel Saber Safar. It includes the Saudi-backed Syrian Revolutionaries’ Front and the Hamza Division. In addition, it includes the 1st Artillery Regiment, which constitutes the offensive arm in battles and is the single faction with rocket launchers, thus creating a qualitative leap in battlefields, particularly in Daraa’s western countryside. The First Army seeks (by defining itself as an army, led by an experienced military colonel and based on the large number of fighters affiliated with the army and its fighters in the Artillery Regiment) to present itself as a nucleus for a reliable and dependable army, which subsequently can be relied on to fill the security vacuum after the regime’s fall.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/free-syrian-army-decimated-desertions-151111064831800.html

[Wild Cobra]

Doesn't even have to be armed conflict. Saudi Arabia consistently has more public beheadings than ISIS and you never hear a peep out of the US over those....

Maybe because it's their justice system rather than just killing?

[Winehole23]

:lol based on hearsay are you familiar with scuttlebutt and Sy Hersh?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

are you familiar with scuttlebutt and Sy Hersh?

In short, yes. Do you have a point?

[Winehole23]

I led with scuttlebutt. Your aggrieved cry of "hearsay!" was somewhat repetitive and does suggest you're unfamiliar with how Sy Hersh writes.