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THE X-FACTOR
09-20-2005, 11:06 PM
Positional Rankings: Power forwards (http://www.sportsline.com/nba/story/8866386)
By Tony Mejia | CBS SportsLine.com Staff Writer

Our second batch of positional rankings gives us a difficult choice at the top. Who is the game's greatest power forward, Kevin Garnett or Tim Duncan? You can't go wrong with either, but someone has to be No. 1.

Garnett, Minnesota's stat-sheet-stuffing marvel, altered the game when he turned pro right out of high school. He changed the way contracts are structured, pioneered the now-extinct preps-to-pros jump and became the first legit 7-footer to prove he could consistently handle and set up others.

Despite all that, plain old Tim Duncan, the fundamentally sound San Antonio star, has to get the nod. Simply put, he's up three rings on K.G. Here's the way the top power forwards line up, with Toronto's Chris Bosh and Orlando's Dwight Howard omitted because both are expected to spend significant time at center this season.

1. Tim Duncan, San Antonio: It will be interesting to see how revered Duncan is 20 years down the road. Unquestionably, he's one of the top five players to grace the game over the past decade, in the same class as Hall of Famers Michael Jordan and Karl Malone, two of the best ever at their positions. But because he doesn't get all up in your face and doesn't command a constant spotlight, there are those that take his greatness for granted. Some even dismiss him as boring. Memo: Fundamentals and going about things the right way, expertly, should never be trivialized.

2. Kevin Garnett, Minnesota: Because of the impact he has had on the game, it's hard to imagine Garnett looking up at anyone. Still, his team comes off its worst season in almost a decade, failing to make the playoffs a year after reaching the Western Conference finals for the first time. There's no doubt Garnett left it all out on the court last season, playing with an abandon and desire that's a rarity for most mega-stars. That has to earn your respect, but ultimately, when the team fails, he'll take the blame. He wouldn't have it any other way.

3. Jermaine O'Neal, Indiana: Now that he has had all summer to rest that ailing shoulder, he'll be back to being the dominant post presence he has been since joining the Pacers. O'Neal did more wincing than anyone else over the latter part of last season and had some uncharacteristically horrendous shooting nights during the playoffs. Rest was the only remedy, and it was a luxury Indiana couldn't afford. The double-double machine should quickly re-capture his form -- in the East, only the other O'Neal is more effective inside.

4. Dirk Nowitzki, Dallas: He enjoyed an MVP-caliber season a year ago, helping the Mavericks overcome the loss of good friend Steve Nash. But he struggled with his jumper in the playoffs, and the Mavericks wilted as a result. After spending the summer playing for Germany in the European Championships, Nowitzki should be in excellent shape when he reports to camp and should be extremely ready for his first full season under Avery Johnson and his defense-first philosophy.

5. Elton Brand, L.A. Clippers: He has quietly starred for losing teams since coming into the league six years ago, consistently putting up 20 points and 10 boards. Despite that, he has been to just a single All-Star game, hindered by Clips syndrome and the fact he's over shadowed by the likes of Duncan, Garnett and Nowitzki. Only 26, his best days seem to be ahead.

6. Kenyon Martin, Denver: It took him some time to get adjusted out West, and whether he struggled with the altitude, foreign surroundings or change of playing style, the good news is the kinks should now be out. A dominant defender and shot blocker, Martin should join Marcus Camby to form the most feared defensive big man tandem in the league. On the offensive end, expect him to be much more comfortable, particularly if he's able to fully recover from the knee injury that hampered him.

7. Rasheed Wallace, Detroit: Wallace, after all those years caught up in controversy in Portland, has made a great home for himself. The fans love him, his teammates adore him, calling him the pulse of the squad, and he's satisfied with his role. It remains to be seen whether he changes with new coach Flip Saunders taking over.

8. Antawn Jamison, Washington: After earning his first All-Star berth in 2005, Jamison has an even bigger task ahead as he and Gilbert Arenas aim to replace the lost production of Larry Hughes. Though undersized to play the four, Jamison has consistently averaged more than seven boards per game and isn't easily pushed around by bigger foes. Offensively, his mid-range jumper has turned into a deadly weapon, complementing his skills down low.

9. Zach Randolph, Portland: He played in just 46 games last season with a knee problem, but when healthy, all he does is produce. With Shareef Abdur-Rahim gone, the Blazers' rebuilding project will undoubtedly be built around him. He and Sebastian Telfair could emerge as a potent combination once they get their chemistry down.

10. Pau Gasol, Memphis: The 7-footer opted to rest and not play for Spain in the European Championships, which was probably the right decision given his bout with plantar fasciitis that cost him time last year. He must bounce back from a disappointing season in which he was expected to become a star but was instead stuck in traction. He's too talented to be so streaky.

11. Chris Webber, Philadelphia: He'll never be what he once was, one of the most complete forwards in the game, but C-Webb still has enough juice left to be an effective second option behind Allen Iverson. He committed himself to getting healthy and getting to camp in shape, and if that part is taken care of, his game will no doubt follow.

12. Emeka Okafor, Charlotte: Though his offense is still raw, questions about his ability to succeed at the pro level were erased emphatically in his rookie season, and he'll no doubt be higher on this list next year. He led the Bobcats in scoring, rebounding and blocked shots despite hitting the wall for a spell as the season's grind got to him. That's no knock -- most rooks struggle through a dry spell -- and Okafor was able to battle through it and finish strong. Expect him to be significantly better.

13. Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Sacramento: New life awaits in Sacramento, where Abdur-Rahim likely will be handed a starting spot on a playoff contender, something he has never been able to enjoy. Abdur-Rahim's versatility and post skills seem to be a perfect fit for the Kings opposite Brad Miller and could help lead an ascent back to the top of the Pacific Division.

14. Carlos Boozer, Utah: He missed 31 games with a foot injury and clashed with management in his first season since coming over from Cleveland, pitching into the Jazz's freefall to 30 games under .500. He'll look to get back on track this year, and it should help to have a healthy Andrei Kirilenko by his side. When his mind and body are right, Boozer is among the league's top rebounders and hustlers.

15. Troy Murphy, Golden State: He's getting better and better, both on the boards and from the perimeter, quietly becoming one of the West's most consistently productive bigs. He's only this far down on the list because he isn't one of the quickest forwards out there, putting his defense at risk. First-round pick Ike Diogu should take some of his minutes, although don't expect a significant dropoff in his numbers.

16. Antonio McDyess, Detroit: He proved during the playoffs that he's still got it, having amazing bounced back from numerous knee surgeries and mentally staying strong after nearly calling it quits. If he can continue to make strides toward what he once was, the two-time defending East champs may not surrender their crown.

17. Al Harrington, Atlanta: In his first year as a starter, Harrington averaged nearly 18 points per game, pacing the Hawks -- but he shot just 21 percent from 3-point range and consistently found himself in foul trouble. He's extremely skilled and must continue to mature. It will be telling to see what Atlanta chooses to do with him having brought Marvin Williams on board, but all that's left for Harrington to do is work hard and keep improving.

18. Tyson Chandler, Chicago: The Bulls rewarded Chandler with a contract this offseason and now must get him to reach his vast potential. His offense is a work in progress and will be for a few more seasons, but defensively and on the boards, he's capable of taking over games. The problem is he doesn't often play smart, consistently finding himself in foul trouble. That needs to change; his talent and desire are certainly there.

19. Al Jefferson, Boston: How does a guy who played fewer than 15 minutes per game last season crack the Top 20? Simple. He's a beast. At 6-10 and over 270 pounds of solid granite, Jefferson is about to break out. We just thought we'd hop on the bandwagon and get a good seat before it starts getting crowded.

20. Nenad Krstic, New Jersey: The Serbian forward is slight of frame, but boy does he have some silky post moves. Only 22, he has a remarkable future considering the flashes of Kevin McHale-type footwork he put on display as a rookie. He has to become a more aggressive rebounder, but the Nets clearly uncovered a jewel with the 24th pick of the 2002 Draft.

Also considered: Drew Gooden, Cleveland; Kurt Thomas, Phoenix; Donyell Marshall, Cleveland; Stromile Swift, Houston; P.J. Brown, New Orleans; Udonis Haslem, Miami; Kenny Thomas, Sacramento; Nene, Denver.

Solid D
09-20-2005, 11:08 PM
Best bench role-player PF, Robert Horry.

Summers
09-20-2005, 11:32 PM
:) Thanks for posting.

Trainwreck2100
09-20-2005, 11:40 PM
How is it still a toss up between Duncan and Garnett, one didn't make the POs, whilst the other won a championship.

Rick Von Braun
09-20-2005, 11:53 PM
Could someone explain me how 3-23 is ahead of Rasheed Wallace and Pau Gasol?

Nikos
09-21-2005, 01:34 AM
Better yet, I don't see why Zach and Antawn are rated ahead of Gasol.

Kmart, Sheed, and Gasol are pretty close IMO. Depends on the system. I probably would rate Gasol ahead of both by a small margin. Sheed and Kmart are very close IMO.

Sense
09-21-2005, 01:38 AM
^..

1.Sheed
2.Gasol<- he's the most effective post up player though.
3.Kmart

zeleni
09-21-2005, 03:39 AM
Tony Mejia...has no merit to make such articles.

The mistakes he makes...are unbelievable!

Supergirl
09-21-2005, 08:51 AM
Could someone explain me how 3-23 is ahead of Rasheed Wallace and Pau Gasol?

SHeed has won a championship and plays better D more consistantly than Gasol does - so far. But Gasol should still be ranked higher - esp than Jamison and Randolph.

Webber being on the list at all makes the whole list suspect, IMO. The guy was done 3 years ago.

Obstructed_View
09-21-2005, 12:22 PM
Webber over Okafor? Puhleeze.

TwoHandJam
09-21-2005, 02:29 PM
20. Nenad Krstic, New Jersey: The Serbian forward is slight of frame, but boy does he have some silky post moves. Only 22, he has a remarkable future considering the flashes of Kevin McHale-type footwork he put on display as a rookie. He has to become a more aggressive rebounder, but the Nets clearly uncovered a jewel with the 24th pick of the 2002 Draft.

Yeah right, the Nets discovered him. :rolleyes Rod Thorn poaches our pick and all of a sudden the Nets are geniuses. The Nets organization couldn't scout a euro player even if he lived in Thorn's basement.

NuGGeTs-FaN
09-21-2005, 03:26 PM
its funny coz some of the fans here always use the argument that its easy to see TD is better than Garnett coz of the rings, playoff record etc..........


but the people go and say Gasol is better than Kmart and yet gasol has an 0-8 playoff record and cant do jack to help his team in the playoffs........

look at the stats for Kmart vs Gasol vs Sheed and Kmart is on top of them both, and id rather have his D than Gasol or Sheed...............he had a bad year last year coz his knees were shot but hopefully that will change after the surgery he had......


dont use the playoff argument for TD vs Garnett and then 4get it when you try and say Gasol is better than Kmart..........

NuGGeTs-FaN
09-21-2005, 03:28 PM
OK, here is my case:

Player A, first five years of career: Points Per Game (12, 14.9, 16.7, 16.7 15.5) Rebounds Per Game (7.4, 5.3, 8.3, 9.4, 7.3) Assists Per Game (1.9, 2.6, 2.4, 2.5, 2.5) Steals Per Game (1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, 1.4) Blocks per Game (1.7, 1.7, .9, 1.3, 1.1)

Player B, first five years of career: Points Per Game (10.1, 15.1, 14.6, 12.8, 16.4) Rebounds Per Game (4.6, 6.8, 6.2, 5.0, 7.0) Assists Per Game (1.3, 1.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.8) Steals Per Game (.6, .8, 1, 1, 1.1) Blocks Per Game (.8, 1.1, 1.1, 1.3, 1.8)

Go ahead and tell me who player A and player B are. Player A loses in points two times, rebounds one time, assists one time and blocks one time. Out of 25 individual statistical rankings, he wins 20 of the 25. Obviously, Player A is KMart, player B is Sheed.

The only thing Sheed does better than KMart is hit the three point shot. Thing is, Sheed doesn't really HELP his team when he takes those shots. Only three times in his career has Sheed hit the three point ball over 33%. Really, he's a below average three point shooter and a great post player. Teams would much rather see Sheed throw one up for 23 feet than be forced to D up on him down low.

To top it off, Sheed is over 4 years older than KMart and is long passed his prime. He's done improving. He is what he is. KMart is just entering his prime. With a healthy knee this year, he'll likely set career highs in every statistical category. Before last year, he had improved in nearly every category every year throughout his career.

I don't think the Nuggets front office would take the best running PF in the league and ship him off for a guy who has a lot of talent, but is four years older and runs the court about as well as my grandmother.

JamStone
09-21-2005, 04:09 PM
OK, here is my case:

Player A, first five years of career: Points Per Game (12, 14.9, 16.7, 16.7 15.5) Rebounds Per Game (7.4, 5.3, 8.3, 9.4, 7.3) Assists Per Game (1.9, 2.6, 2.4, 2.5, 2.5) Steals Per Game (1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, 1.4) Blocks per Game (1.7, 1.7, .9, 1.3, 1.1)

Player B, first five years of career: Points Per Game (10.1, 15.1, 14.6, 12.8, 16.4) Rebounds Per Game (4.6, 6.8, 6.2, 5.0, 7.0) Assists Per Game (1.3, 1.2, 2.5, 1.2, 1.8) Steals Per Game (.6, .8, 1, 1, 1.1) Blocks Per Game (.8, 1.1, 1.1, 1.3, 1.8)

Go ahead and tell me who player A and player B are. Player A loses in points two times, rebounds one time, assists one time and blocks one time. Out of 25 individual statistical rankings, he wins 20 of the 25. Obviously, Player A is KMart, player B is Sheed.

The only thing Sheed does better than KMart is hit the three point shot. Thing is, Sheed doesn't really HELP his team when he takes those shots. Only three times in his career has Sheed hit the three point ball over 33%. Really, he's a below average three point shooter and a great post player. Teams would much rather see Sheed throw one up for 23 feet than be forced to D up on him down low.

To top it off, Sheed is over 4 years older than KMart and is long passed his prime. He's done improving. He is what he is. KMart is just entering his prime. With a healthy knee this year, he'll likely set career highs in every statistical category. Before last year, he had improved in nearly every category every year throughout his career.

I don't think the Nuggets front office would take the best running PF in the league and ship him off for a guy who has a lot of talent, but is four years older and runs the court about as well as my grandmother.



NUGGETS FAN,

1. The flaw in your comparative analysis is that you used each of Kenyon's and Rasheed's FIRST FIVE YEARS as opposed to each players' LAST FIVE YEARS. A ranking now is best served to evaluate the player NOW, not how they were (as in Rasheed's case) as 5-10 years ago, as you did. For example, if you were to compare Jermaine O'Neal's first four years to almost any "average" power forward's FIRST FOUR YEARS, Jermaine O'Neal would be considered one of the worst power forwards in the league, and you'd be hard pressed to find many people to agree with that sentiment.

So, let's please compare their respective MOST RECENT FIVE YEARS played in the league:


K-Mart: ppg (12, 14.9, 16.7, 16.7 15.5), rpg (7.4, 5.3, 8.3, 9.4, 7.3), asp (1.9, 2.6, 2.4, 2.5, 2.5), spg (1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.5, 1.4), bpg (1.7, 1.7, .9, 1.3, 1.1)

Rasheed: ppg (19.2, 19.3, 18.1, 16.0, 14.5), rpg (7.8, 8.2, 7.4, 6.8, 8.2), apg (2.8, 1.9, 2.1, 2.3, 1.8), spg (1.2, 1.3, .95, .9, .82), bpg (1.8, 1.3, 1.0, 1.8, 1.5)


That is a much more accurate evaluation of how good each of the players has been in the LAST AND MOST RECENT FIVE YEARS. You don't compare a player now with another player five years ago. That's not how a sports writer or analyst would rank players, otherwise Chris Webber would be a top five power forward still and Jermaine O'Neal wouldn't even be a top 20 power forward.

The numbers prove to be very similar. But, I think it also shows that when Rasheed was asked to be the number one or number two option on a team, he is a better scorer and shotblocker than Kenyon Martin. Rasheed is now the third or fourth option on the Pistons and still gets similar numbers as K-Mart, who should be the #2 guy on the Nuggets.

2. Kenyon Martin is three years younger than Rasheed. Rasheed just turned 31 and K-Mart turns 28 at the end of December ... 3 years and 3 months. Not that it is that much of a difference, but still, let's get that straight.

3. Kenyon Martin has chronic knee problems. Considering K-Mart's game is primarily dependent on his athleticism, his knee problems definitely offset your argument of Rasheed's age.


I don't mind that some people might think Kenyon Martin is a better power forward than Rasheed. I would disagree, but it's not a travesty to think so.

samikeyp
09-21-2005, 04:11 PM
its funny coz some of the fans here always use the argument that its easy to see TD is better than Garnett coz of the rings, playoff record etc

well that, and its true. :p

JamStone
09-21-2005, 04:26 PM
its funny coz some of the fans here always use the argument that its easy to see TD is better than Garnett coz of the rings, playoff record etc..........



That rationale has always been a hard one for me as well. Because, looking at the statistical numbers, Kevin Garnett is at least AS GOOD if not just a little better skilled basketball player than Tim Duncan. Now, it's true that Tim Duncan has performed at the highest of levels on the NBA finals stage and has three championship rings to prove his worth.

HOWEVER, to state that Tim Duncan is "clearly" the better player than Kevin Garnett because of his championship rings would be to TOTALLY DISCREDIT the coaching job Pop has done in those title runs, the personnel moves RC Buford has made to put a team around TD, and the performances of Tim's teammates in each of those title runs. It would discredit David Robinson's defense, Avery Johnson's and Mario Elie's leadership and toughness, Sean Elliot's and Robert Horry's clutch shooting, and Manu Ginobili's play making abilities. Those players, coaches, management, and ownership helped Tim Duncan be in a position to succeed in the NBA finals.

I'm not here to say Kevin Garnett is the better player. I don't believe that. I still believe that Tim Duncan is the best power forward in the game. I just don't think someone can just say Tim has 3 championship rings and KG has none, so there shouldn't even be a debate which is the better player. Because, as I mentioned, that discounts everyone else who played a role in winning a "TEAM" championship.

samikeyp
09-21-2005, 05:00 PM
I added a smiley to my post because the way I phrased it was tongue in cheek.

My assesment has always been that IMO, Garnett is the better athlete while Duncan is the better basketball player. There is a difference.

NuGGeTs-FaN
09-21-2005, 05:04 PM
I added a smiley to my post because the way I phrased it was tongue in cheek.

My assesment has always been that IMO, Garnett is the better athlete while Duncan is the better basketball player. There is a difference.

Tim is so good that he just goes about his business night in and night out and there is no real explosion or hype in his game and yet he still get at least 20+ and 10+ nights...........with KG, you can tell when he is having a big game coz he jumping all over the place and throwing down hard dunkss etc........

Tim is more well rounded in his game.......

JamStone
09-21-2005, 05:30 PM
I added a smiley to my post because the way I phrased it was tongue in cheek.

My assesment has always been that IMO, Garnett is the better athlete while Duncan is the better basketball player. There is a difference.


samikeyp,

My point was not directed at you, per se. But, I have read several posts that have used that logic on this messageboard before.

"TD has 3 rings. KG has 0. TD is better, period."

Or, something along those lines. I'm just saying I don't buy that argument or rationale. I will agree that Tim Duncan makes his teammates better, and has proven to be a clutch player in pressure situations, and complements his teammates in such a way to make the overall team better, and that's why he's better than KG. But, I just don't agree with the "championship rings" bottom line argument. Again, not necessarily directed at you, samikeyp. But, there are Spurs fans that will say just that.

samikeyp
09-21-2005, 06:04 PM
My point was not directed at you, per se. But, I have read several posts that have used that logic on this messageboard before

you are correct and I knew you didn't mean me personally. Its all good, amigo! :)

MI21
09-22-2005, 01:47 AM
I don't think the Nuggets front office would take the best running PF in the league and ship him off for a guy who has a lot of talent, but is four years older and runs the court about as well as my grandmother.

How long have the Nuggets had Tim Duncan on there team?

JamStone
09-22-2005, 02:34 AM
I don't think the Nuggets front office would take the best running PF in the league and ship him off for a guy who has a lot of talent, but is four years older and runs the court about as well as my grandmother.



How long have the Nuggets had Tim Duncan on there team?


Sorry to inform that both of you are wrong. If you can be objective for just a moment, you will realize that AMARE STOUDEMIRE is the best running power forward in the league.


By the way, NuGGeTs-FaN, you didn't seem to have a response to my rebuttal of your analysis as to why Kenyon Martin should be ranked higher than Rasheed Wallace, and how you manipulated the stats to work in your favor by using stats on Rasheed that were 5-10 years ago but using Kenyon Martin's most recent stats so as to avoid Rasheed's BETTER STATISTICS in your comparative analysis. I really want to read your response.