A brief analysis of why the offense stagnates at its current state.

[apalisoc_9]

The spurs have managed to win enough games on pace to win 65+ this years thanks to Leonards rise to superstardom, lockdown defense and a rejuvnated Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker. So even with these individual plays, what is causing the starters offense to stagnate?

- First and foremost the execution with the starters is piss poor and the biggest culprit is a change in personel. Parker-Leonard-Green-TD has played together without LMA for short stints and the execution was good..really good.

- So far in the season, Five particular sets/playcalls have contributed heavily in the starters offense Stagnating. Should these plays exist? At what point in the season should the team diminsh it or completely abolish it? I will attempt to rank them based on how it stagnates the offense and how often it os used.

1. Lamarcus Aldridge Post Ups - As I have pointed out a month ago, his post ups skills have diminshed significantly and is the worst run offense so far. Why does it rank first? Its inefficient, it works poorly with Green, Lamarcus forces the issue and a piss poor passer when hes on action.

2. When Danny is on the weakside leaving Parker and Leonard on the strongside - This results in the most cringworthy possesion of spurs history. Even the sixers run a more fluid offense when this happens. This happens in two instances, a failed pass to kawhi in the post or LMA passing up a wide open J. Green ends up intiating sets that or a two man game with TD or LMA.

the right decision is throw the ball out to Parker again and reset.

3. Tony and TD pick and Roll/pop. When your big isnt that much of a threat on the pop and your Guard is a step slower than he was the result is the easiest offense to defend. I know spursfans casuals vagina will bleed by me saying this though. The right move when the defense forces this action is to swing it to Leonard. This is probably the most turnover prone, even worse than Danny Green Dribbling.

4. Lack of offball motion. I put this fourth, mainly because the lack of motion is mainly a direct result of the personel and I doubt it will change. Parker and LMA usually struggle in motion based offense.

5. Kawhi post ups/ Isos- While I do think that it stagnates the offense at times, Kawhi is not prone to turnovers and the team is making 55% baskets.on these sets.

[Nathan89]

LMA should only be getting post-ups in near the rim like Boban was getting tonight. Turnaround jumpers from him are not going to cut it. To make matters worse he adds a stupid pump fake.

[dafonearth]

I would like to see the offense run through kawhi more often. Like you said, he rarely commits turnovers and has been assisting at a high percentage. He doesn't have to iso, but the ball needs to run through him a lot more. He should also stop getting so close to the basket on drives and then giving it up, resetting the play. Just go for a dunk or an acrobatic move, risk an offensive foul for once.

[100%duncan]

I dont get why pop runs pnr/p with lma and green, and parker and duncan. It should be parker and lma, LMA's pnp game is deadly not post-ups.

[YGWHI]

A post up play doesn't stagnate the offense per se, the issue is if nobody moves well around.

Kawhi and LMA create mismatches, getting double teamed, we have two genuine offensive threats, but the other three guys need to move without the ball, find their spots to generate open shots when LMA/Kawhi pass out of the post...

[Kawhitstorm]

LMA should only be getting post-ups in near the rim like Boban was getting tonight. Turnaround jumpers from him are not going to cut it. To make matters worse he adds a stupid pump fake.

LMA/West should only post up midgets, otherwise it's a waste of the shot-clock/possession b/c LMA is going to throw it back to Danny & West is going to shoot an air ball.:lol They feasted on Faried tonight though:toast

[ChumpDumper]

lol you guys act like LMA can't post up at all.

ST groupthink strikes again.

[Kawhitstorm]

I dont get why pop runs pnr/p with lma and green, and parker and duncan. It should be parker and lma, LMA's pnp game is deadly not post-ups.

Seems like Pop wants LMA/Danny on the same side of the floor by design & he wants LMA/Kawhi to be on opposite sides to stretch out the defense. LMA/Simmons work well together so it's Danny that's fuckin' it up:bang.
Porker is only allowed to run PnR w/ the 5 man (Tim or West).:pop:

[apalisoc_9]

Danny and LMA two man game:lol

[100%duncan]

Seems like Pop wants LMA/Danny on the same side of the floor by design & he wants LMA/Kawhi to be on opposite sides to stretch out the defense. LMA/Simmons work well together so it's Danny that's fuckin' it up:bang.
Porker is only allowed to run PnR w/ the 5 man (Tim or West).:pop:

Danny is not fucking up, he's being forced into something that he's not good at doing. He doesnt have the speed to threaten the big in the pnr so the sg can just stick to him. That's just not his game.

Parker can still run the pnr but not with Duncan. Nobody respects TD's jumper anymore, if we're talking strictly about the SL, he should be pnr/p'ing with LMA.

[SAGirl]

Some good observations Apo.
I also think you did a good job ranking them.

1. Agree that Lamarcus has been deficient posting up. He tries to draw fouls, but he doesn't bc he's not aggressive enough on them. Pop sometimes posts him up closer to the basket, and he's thrown a jump hook with mixed results. I feel like he's strong enough to bully some guys but he doesn't. It's probably not that he's "soft," since the guy is strong and he's big (some say fat, but no matter, he has bulk to throw around, that helps in the post).

I think his ballhandling is lacking, so he is not comfortable changing directions or pivoting. His post moves are not as nice as Diaw, Kawhi, Tim (he is really stiff at this point and slim so he's obviously not as effective posting up but he did use to have nice moves and occasionally will give us a throwback move), I'll even throw Anderson there (although he is a newbie and unproven player, and slim, he does have nice ballhandling which allows him to change directions, and he has flashed nice footwork, and a nice jumphook, and can pass out of it well too, but for Anderson, its just flashes, before someone goes crazy with my take).

The point is, I don't think Lamarcus is soft, but rather that he's not as skilled in the post as I have seen these other guys be. Not sure what Pop wants to do about this. Lamarcus is streaky and will be good out of post up situations sometimes.

The two man game between Danny and him rarely ends up in a quality shot for Green though and drains the shot clock, and leaves Danny to have to manufacture something and that is a Danny WEAKNESS. Maybe the two man game should be with Kawhi (what do you think?). Realistically, the LMA post up may be minimized, but it is not going away.

2. Agree with this completely. Occasionally Danny will be able to run a side PnR well enough. I don't want to discount the fact that Danny does get the occasional assist this way, but it is still very inefficient, runs the clock, may end up in a contested shot anyways, since he doesn't draw the defense, and LMA man closes him out, or Danny ends up with a contested shot at the basket (worst possible scenario for us). Basically nothing good comes out of it for a huge majority of the time.

3. I have my questions about TD PnR/Pop as well. It is fine in moderation, some teams are poor defending it still. When TD pops it's really not a threat so everyone clogs the paint, Tony doesn't have a shot at the rim, has to pass, the pass is predictable, etc. You might be onto something here.

4. Agree completely.

5. Agree on Kawhi iso. It stagnates, but he's incredibly efficient on them, and he's been passing out better when he doesn't have a good look at the basket.

[Kawhitstorm]

Danny is not fucking up, he's being forced into something that he's not good at doing. He doesnt have the speed to threaten the big in the pnr so the sg can just stick to him. That's just not his game.

That's is what I meant, Danny isn't a good fit w/ the current system b/c he can't run PnRs unlike Simmons. The current system values play-making guards over shooters since LMA can shoot unlike Tiago.


Parker can still run the pnr but not with Duncan. Nobody respects TD's jumper anymore, if we're talking strictly about the SL, he should be pnr/p'ing with LMA.

Tell that to this guy::pop:

[apalisoc_9]

Seems like Pop wants LMA/Danny on the same side of the floor by design & he wants LMA/Kawhi to be on opposite sides to stretch out the defense. LMA/Simmons work well together so it's Danny that's fuckin' it up:bang.
Porker is only allowed to run PnR w/ the 5 man (Tim or West).:pop:

Yup. Pop needs to allow leonard to run more pnr with the starters. Pop cant seem to realize his insitent with one ball handler in the starting lineup is killing his own offense.

Kawhi and LMA doing it on spots should open up opportunities for a struggling Green.

Pop is just being stubborn.

[SAGirl]

That's is what I meant, Danny isn't a good fit w/ the current system b/c he can't run PnRs unlike Simmons. The current system values play-making guards over shooters since LMA can shoot unlike Tiago.



Tell that to this guy::pop:

You have a good point, if Simmons could defend like Danny you could make a case for Pop switching things around even with Simmons lack of credible shooting. I think he'll shoot the 3 if he's open in the corner at least at 37% (I am hoping, and trusting his 3 pt shooting in the dleague was not a fluke and he's flashed he can make the shot in few attempts so far.) He is definitely a better cutter and passer. I think Pop really loves Simmons too, bc he has not only "promoted" him (well deserved too), but also lets him play through mistakes a whole lot without pulling him. He's in high esteem. I have been consistent expressing my doubts with Danny in the bench, but it could be an experiment. If it doesn't work, go right back to current SL and status quo and make other adjustments.

I think Pop is reluctant to bench Danny if the issue is systemic and can be fixed some other way. WE will see.

[midnightpulp]

Considering the age of this team, you're not going to have your proverbial "cake and eat it too" with this squad, meaning the offense and defense won't be equally as good on most nights. Historically, elite defensive teams will have offensive struggles because of the energy you have to expend on the defensive end. This is why defensive minded teams tend to use more isolation in the post. When you have an elite defensive team (and it's possible this Spurs team can be historically good defensively), you want to slow the pace down and turn it into a half court affair.

For people wondering why the Spurs starters don't move off the ball more, that is why. No doubt some offensive sets are called to give Kawhi, Green, and even Parker a rest. When you see Kawhi standing around while LMA posts up, that is probably what's happening.

The offense could "look" prettier, but you're not going to be able to have a fluid motion offense and be able to play elite (top 2) defense at the same time. That said, the starting offense could be better, and I think the primary culprit is Danny Green.

Look what happens when you switch out Manu for Green:

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=1

The NET RTG goes from 6.2 to 28.6.

Look at the other 5 man units. All of the weakest feature Danny Green (aside from the last one, which is probably just an anomaly).

[apalisoc_9]

Danny sucking is a direct result of the offense lack of movement. Its a tough decision to make for pop.

Consodering theyre on pace to win 65 games I dont expect the SL.to change. It might change in the playoffs when the spurs are down 0-2 or 1-3.

[Kawhitstorm]

You have a good point, if Simmons could defend like Danny you could make a case for Pop switching things around even with Simmons lack of credible shooting. I think he'll shoot the 3 if he's open in the corner at least at 37% (I am hoping, and trusting his 3 pt shooting in the dleague was not a fluke and he's flashed he can make the shot in few attempts so far.) He is definitely a better cutter and passer. I think Pop really loves Simmons too, bc he has not only "promoted" him (well deserved too), but also lets him play through mistakes a whole lot without pulling him. He's in high esteem. I have been consistent expressing my doubts with Danny in the bench, but it could be an experiment. If it doesn't work, go right back to current SL and status quo and make other adjustments.

I think Pop is reluctant to bench Danny if the issue is systemic and can be fixed some other way. WE will see.

Simmons is getting the Devin Brown/Stephen Jackson treatment from Pop as opposed to getting pulled like young CoJo/Danny as Fathead.:lol

[SAGirl]

midnightpulp you have some good points. I much prefer LMA exerting the effort he is doing on defense quite honestly.

Danny has been shooting poorly and obviously he's not the passer or creator that Manu is. Manu cannot be playing as much as 25-28 minutes against elite teams and closing games out. The quality of his play diminishes, he looses his legs, and will heroball. I prefer Manu heroball to Danny heroball. It should make Pop question why the team requires the SG to heroball as much to be efficient.

[midnightpulp]

Danny sucking is a direct result of the offense lack of movement. Its a tough decision to make for pop.

Consodering theyre on pace to win 65 games I dont expect the SL.to change. It might change in the playoffs when the spurs are down 0-2 or 1-3.

It's more to do with how limited he is. Every Spur has seen a boost to their offense and/or shooting percentage aside from him.

Things are improving, though. I last looked at our 5 man units a couple of weeks ago, and the NET RTG of the starters was only 2.6. It's climbed 4 points since then.

The SL probably shouldn't change, either. The Spurs can fade Danny's offensive limitations as long as he brings it defensively. He's a low usage player, so his 38% or whatever on 7 shots isn't damaging. We can also easily stagger his minutes with Manu and Simmons.

My primary concern is, like always, Parker. When he struggles, like yesterday, we see how drastically he affects everything. I just hope it was a Christmas Eve hangover, because Parker's resurgence is a big part of the Spurs' success this year.

[100%duncan]

It's more to do with how limited he is. Every Spur has seen a boost to their offense and/or shooting percentage aside from him.

Things are improving, though. I last looked at our 5 man units a couple of weeks ago, and the NET RTG of the starters was only 2.6. It's climbed 4 points since then.

The SL probably shouldn't change, either. The Spurs can fade Danny's offensive limitations as long as he brings it defensively. He's a low usage player, so his 38% or whatever on 7 shots isn't damaging. We can also easily stagger his minutes with Manu and Simmons.

My primary concern is, like always, Parker. When he struggles, like yesterday, we see how drastically he affects everything. I just hope it was a Christmas Eve hangover, because Parker's resurgence is a big part of the Spurs' success this year.
It's one thing to struggle, it's another to force shit up while you're at it. I can live with Parker's age, not his ego.

[vander]

damn I was really hoping OP was gone.

[SouthernFried]

Considering the age of this team, you're not going to have your proverbial "cake and eat it too" with this squad, meaning the offense and defense won't be equally as good on most nights. Historically, elite defensive teams will have offensive struggles because of the energy you have to expend on the defensive end. This is why defensive minded teams tend to use more isolation in the post. When you have an elite defensive team (and it's possible this Spurs team can be historically good defensively), you want to slow the pace down and turn it into a half court affair.

For people wondering why the Spurs starters don't move off the ball more, that is why. No doubt some offensive sets are called to give Kawhi, Green, and even Parker a rest. When you see Kawhi standing around while LMA posts up, that is probably what's happening.

The offense could "look" prettier, but you're not going to be able to have a fluid motion offense and be able to play elite (top 2) defense at the same time. That said, the starting offense could be better, and I think the primary culprit is Danny Green.

Look what happens when you switch out Manu for Green:

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=1

The NET RTG goes from 6.2 to 28.6.

Look at the other 5 man units. All of the weakest feature Danny Green (aside from the last one, which is probably just an anomaly).

Good take. Especially about the amount of energy needed to play D and how that affects the O.

Also, watch Aldridge on Pick n rolls. It's rare he ever makes contact with the defensive player when he sets a pick. I think he is the worst Picker I've ever seen. And that says something about Aldridge and his mindset. I'm not totally sold on this guy yet. I see his talent...not sure I've seen his heart. Still early tho.

[spurs10]

Our offense is steadily getting better. Having the largest point differential in the NBA is a bit telling....ya think?

[SAGirl]

Simmons is getting the Devin Brown/Stephen Jackson treatment from Pop as opposed to getting pulled like young CoJo/Danny as Fathead.:lol

Simmons is ready to play a role and has produced really well. He could expand that role, and hopefully he does but he's 26. I don't expect some breakthrough. He pretty much is who he is, which is fine. If anything, it would be huge if he could improve his 3 pt shooting. It would really make him a dangerous player and its maybe something that he can do with Chip regardless of age.

Cojo was really young and undeveloped. His game as a ball dominant guard was also not very complementary to the bench style, who already had another HoF ball dominant guard and the best passer in the team, so he wasn't going to play much.

Danny still gets Pop angry bc of his mental farts. In the beginning, he was so intolerable to Pop that he got cut.

Kyle is really skilled and could play in another team right away. He's young enough, and inexperienced enough still to have room for improvement and this is his first real rodeo. I am puzzled that the things that the Spurs had Kyle work on in the dleague and SL are not the things they are having him do here in the big team, so I think that is a big reason for why he has struggled on occasion. He's playing a different game. Simmons was pretty much doing the same things, now they are just more difficult. The challenge was increased, bigger/quicker/better guys to defend, offensively not as easy to blow by someone, or simply get uncontested shots at the rim. It's more difficult but it is the same game.

Kyle is not playing the same game they asked him to develop, so it is really puzzling.

[ceperez]

LMA should only be getting post-ups in near the rim like Boban was getting tonight. Turnaround jumpers from him are not going to cut it. To make matters worse he adds a stupid pump fake.

If LMA is not willing to bang bodies down low, then these kind of opportunities aren't going to be present.

Speaking about that pump fake, he's shooting like 29% on that.

To make a fair comparison, West was totally lost early in the season, but he's now figuring out how to play. Last game against the Nuggets West had 6 assists.

What does LMA do the entire game... he stands around in the midrange spot and is extremely indecisive when he gets the ball.

The starters offense has been pathetic and the real culprit here is LMA. Ball movement sucks and the lane is clogged.

[ceperez]

I dont get why pop runs pnr/p with lma and green, and parker and duncan. It should be parker and lma, LMA's pnp game is deadly not post-ups.

This seemed to have worked early in the season, but the past two games, teams are anticipating that Parker pass and its not even reaching Aldridge. The problem is Aldridge does not mix it up by diving to the basket like what Splitter used to do.

[ceperez]

Some good observations Apo.
I also think you did a good job ranking them.

1. Agree that Lamarcus has been deficient posting up. He tries to draw fouls, but he doesn't bc he's not aggressive enough on them. Pop sometimes posts him up closer to the basket, and he's thrown a jump hook with mixed results. I feel like he's strong enough to bully some guys but he doesn't. It's probably not that he's "soft," since the guy is strong and he's big (some say fat, but no matter, he has bulk to throw around, that helps in the post).

I think his ballhandling is lacking, so he is not comfortable changing directions or pivoting. His post moves are not as nice as Diaw, Kawhi, Tim (he is really stiff at this point and slim so he's obviously not as effective posting up but he did use to have nice moves and occasionally will give us a throwback move), I'll even throw Anderson there (although he is a newbie and unproven player, and slim, he does have nice ballhandling which allows him to change directions, and he has flashed nice footwork, and a nice jumphook, and can pass out of it well too, but for Anderson, its just flashes, before someone goes crazy with my take).

The point is, I don't think Lamarcus is soft, but rather that he's not as skilled in the post as I have seen these other guys be. Not sure what Pop wants to do about this. Lamarcus is streaky and will be good out of post up situations sometimes.

The two man game between Danny and him rarely ends up in a quality shot for Green though and drains the shot clock, and leaves Danny to have to manufacture something and that is a Danny WEAKNESS. Maybe the two man game should be with Kawhi (what do you think?). Realistically, the LMA post up may be minimized, but it is not going away.

2. Agree with this completely. Occasionally Danny will be able to run a side PnR well enough. I don't want to discount the fact that Danny does get the occasional assist this way, but it is still very inefficient, runs the clock, may end up in a contested shot anyways, since he doesn't draw the defense, and LMA man closes him out, or Danny ends up with a contested shot at the basket (worst possible scenario for us). Basically nothing good comes out of it for a huge majority of the time.

3. I have my questions about TD PnR/Pop as well. It is fine in moderation, some teams are poor defending it still. When TD pops it's really not a threat so everyone clogs the paint, Tony doesn't have a shot at the rim, has to pass, the pass is predictable, etc. You might be onto something here.

4. Agree completely.

5. Agree on Kawhi iso. It stagnates, but he's incredibly efficient on them, and he's been passing out better when he doesn't have a good look at the basket.

OP had a very good post.

Agree entirely that LMA just doesn't have the post up skills that Diaw, Duncan, Leonard, Anderson and even Boban. He is also a terrible passer and probably a very poor reader of the defense. My sense is that he takes a nap too often mentally in offense and defense. I beginning to believe that his basketball IQ is at the bottom of the Spurs team, probably right next to Ray McCallum.

The Leonard post ups should only be done when he's got a mismatch. Too often he forces it despite a double team. However, he deserves some slack here because he needs to get exposed to tough offensive situations. Few in the team is in a position to create their own offense.

[ceperez]

You have a good point, if Simmons could defend like Danny you could make a case for Pop switching things around even with Simmons lack of credible shooting. I think he'll shoot the 3 if he's open in the corner at least at 37% (I am hoping, and trusting his 3 pt shooting in the dleague was not a fluke and he's flashed he can make the shot in few attempts so far.) He is definitely a better cutter and passer. I think Pop really loves Simmons too, bc he has not only "promoted" him (well deserved too), but also lets him play through mistakes a whole lot without pulling him. He's in high esteem. I have been consistent expressing my doubts with Danny in the bench, but it could be an experiment. If it doesn't work, go right back to current SL and status quo and make other adjustments.

I think Pop is reluctant to bench Danny if the issue is systemic and can be fixed some other way. WE will see.

There was a lineup with Danny that looked intriguing agains the Nuggets. If I recall, it had Bobo and Marjanovic posting up and you had Mills, Danny and Simmons(?). Bobo was consistenly posting up and with Marjanovic on the other side of the paint, the wings had a ton of space.

[ceperez]

Good take. Especially about the amount of energy needed to play D and how that affects the O.

Also, watch Aldridge on Pick n rolls. It's rare he ever makes contact with the defensive player when he sets a pick. I think he is the worst Picker I've ever seen. And that says something about Aldridge and his mindset. I'm not totally sold on this guy yet. I see his talent...not sure I've seen his heart. Still early tho.

He's obviously got the length and the talent. Unfortunately, there a problem with its mindset and its showing. He doesn't what to get hit! The picks there were there that used to free up folks just aren't there anymore.

Honestly, a lot of Spurs fans want LMA to step up and improve, I do too. The guy thinks he's got Robert Horry entitlement in that he can coast in the regular season. Not happening if you are (a) new to the team and (b) not close to retirement age.

[ceperez]

Simmons is ready to play a role and has produced really well. He could expand that role, and hopefully he does but he's 26. I don't expect some breakthrough. He pretty much is who he is, which is fine. If anything, it would be huge if he could improve his 3 pt shooting. It would really make him a dangerous player and its maybe something that he can do with Chip regardless of age.

Cojo was really young and undeveloped. His game as a ball dominant guard was also not very complementary to the bench style, who already had another HoF ball dominant guard and the best passer in the team, so he wasn't going to play much.

Danny still gets Pop angry bc of his mental farts. In the beginning, he was so intolerable to Pop that he got cut.

Kyle is really skilled and could play in another team right away. He's young enough, and inexperienced enough still to have room for improvement and this is his first real rodeo. I am puzzled that the things that the Spurs had Kyle work on in the dleague and SL are not the things they are having him do here in the big team, so I think that is a big reason for why he has struggled on occasion. He's playing a different game. Simmons was pretty much doing the same things, now they are just more difficult. The challenge was increased, bigger/quicker/better guys to defend, offensively not as easy to blow by someone, or simply get uncontested shots at the rim. It's more difficult but it is the same game.

Kyle is not playing the same game they asked him to develop, so it is really puzzling.

Kyle is like Pop's favorite whipping boy. The upside though is that he gets to play. There's also a demand on him to make the difficult play when the clock expires. He got yanked by Pop when he let the clock expire against the Nuggets.

Right now Kyle is getting the Tony Parker treatment... which is a good thing.

The one who's really be treated badly though is Ray McCallum. Think about it, Pop subs him in for Kyle to emphasizes Kyle's mistake. Ray plays for a minute, but never sniffs the court after that. What does this say? It says to Kyle, I'm subbing you with the worst player on the team. To add insult to injury, I'm going to let the worst player in for just 1 minute!

Pop is a perfectionist when it comes to play. What do you think is going through his mind when he sees what LMA is doing on the court? It is driving him nuts and it is spilling out in conversation in public places.

[100%duncan]

This seemed to have worked early in the season, but the past two games, teams are anticipating that Parker pass and its not even reaching Aldridge. The problem is Aldridge does not mix it up by diving to the basket like what Splitter used to do.

Aldridge should shoot since he's better at it than driving, spaces the floor giving kawhi and parker more room to penetrate.

[ceperez]

Aldridge should shoot since he's better at it than driving, spaces the floor giving kawhi and parker more room to penetrate.

I wrote that he's not receiving the ball because teams are anticipating the pass from Parker. LMA game right now has next to zero versatility. It's like a poor man's version of Bonner. Instead of spacing the floor from the 3 point line, he's standing at the mid range. It is absolutely the worse!!

[benefactor]

#ceperez

[100%duncan]

I wrote that he's not receiving the ball because teams are anticipating the pass from Parker. LMA game right now has next to zero versatility. It's like a poor man's version of Bonner. Instead of spacing the floor from the 3 point line, he's standing at the mid range. It is absolutely the worse!!

He's not receiving the ball because he runs the pnr with danny and not parker :lol

[ceperez]

Bobo may need to be with the starters for (1) better passing (2) better screens (3) additional 3 point threat (4) a post up game. One of either Duncan or Aldridge needs to move to the second unit.

Spurs are missing Tiago's screens and his passing. That's why it is so messed up now with LMA only exerting effort when he's the focus of the offense. LMA needs a change of attitude or he should be given a change of scenery.

#ceperez

[BD24]

Bobo may need to be with the starters for (1) better passing (2) better screens (3) additional 3 point threat (4) a post up game. One of either Duncan or Aldridge needs to move to the second unit.

Spurs are missing Tiago's screens and his passing. That's why it is so messed up now with LMA only exerting effort when he's the focus of the offense. LMA needs a change of attitude or he should be given a change of scenery.

#ceperez
Right, because we were doing so much better last year at this time with Tiago in the lineup

[weebo]

Considering the age of this team, you're not going to have your proverbial "cake and eat it too" with this squad, meaning the offense and defense won't be equally as good on most nights. Historically, elite defensive teams will have offensive struggles because of the energy you have to expend on the defensive end. This is why defensive minded teams tend to use more isolation in the post. When you have an elite defensive team (and it's possible this Spurs team can be historically good defensively), you want to slow the pace down and turn it into a half court affair.

For people wondering why the Spurs starters don't move off the ball more, that is why. No doubt some offensive sets are called to give Kawhi, Green, and even Parker a rest. When you see Kawhi standing around while LMA posts up, that is probably what's happening.

The offense could "look" prettier, but you're not going to be able to have a fluid motion offense and be able to play elite (top 2) defense at the same time. That said, the starting offense could be better, and I think the primary culprit is Danny Green.

Look what happens when you switch out Manu for Green:

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=1

The NET RTG goes from 6.2 to 28.6.

Look at the other 5 man units. All of the weakest feature Danny Green (aside from the last one, which is probably just an anomaly).

This. Pop has turned this team into a defensive minded team. I guess he figures that the only way to beat GS is to this current version into the late 90's-early '00's Spurs.

[TrainOfThought5]

Good take. Especially about the amount of energy needed to play D and how that affects the O.

Also, watch Aldridge on Pick n rolls. It's rare he ever makes contact with the defensive player when he sets a pick. I think he is the worst Picker I've ever seen. And that says something about Aldridge and his mindset. I'm not totally sold on this guy yet. I see his talent...not sure I've seen his heart. Still early tho.

We've been spoiled with TD and splitter and baynes all these years. But youre right... those picks are shit. Not sure if hes halfassing because its the regular season, or if hes soft.

[ceperez]

Here are the telling stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612759&GroupQuantity=4&CF=GP*GE*2

For 4 man lineups, with more than 1 game played with that lineup.

The top for worse net rating lineups have LMA in all of them. In fact, 13 of the worst 19 lineups you have LMA on the court.

If you do 5 man lineups, LMA is in 5 of the 6 worst lineups.

[Mel_13]

Here are the telling stats: http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=NET_RATING&dir=-1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&TeamID=1610612759&GroupQuantity=4&CF=GP*GE*2

For 4 man lineups, with more than 1 game played with that lineup.

The top for worse net rating lineups have LMA in all of them. In fact, 13 of the worst 19 lineups you have LMA on the court.

If you do 5 man lineups, LMA is in 5 of the 6 worst lineups.

He's also in 5 of the top 7 groups in that link.

#smallsamplesize

#ceperez

[ceperez]

He's also in 5 of the top 7 groups in that link.

#smallsamplesize

#ceperez

The 5 group isn't as telling as the 4 group. He's in 4 of the top 7. Furthermore, you got Leonard with him on 3 of the 4.

Let's look at 4 group and top 24. Better sample size. 7 times in the top 28.

Compare that with the bottom 28 where his name shows up 18 times!

Go run the numbers as much as you want... damn obvious that LMA isn't performing.

In contrast, David West name shows up 9 times in top 28 and 7 times in bottom 28. Care to explain why LMA is showing up 18 times in the bottom?

[Mel_13]

The 5 group isn't as telling as the 4 group. He's in 4 of the top 7. Furthermore, you got Leonard with him on 3 of the 4.

Let's look at 4 group and top 24. Better sample size. 7 times in the top 28.

Compare that with the bottom 28 where his name shows up 18 times!

Go run the numbers as much as you want... damn obvious that LMA isn't performing.

Small sample size. You don't seem to understand what that means. Multiple lineups that have played just a few minutes together all season doesn't tell you anything worthwhile.

Eliminate the noise and you get something that just might be useful:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/lineup_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&lineup_type=4-man&output=per_poss&year_id=2016&is_playoffs=N&team_id=SAS&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=ge&c1val=50&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=ge&c4val=&order_by=diff_pts

[ceperez]

Small sample size. You don't seem to understand what that means. Multiple lineups that have played just a few minutes together all season doesn't tell you anything worthwhile.

Eliminate the noise and you get something that just might be useful:


http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/lineup_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=single&lineup_type=4-man&output=per_poss&year_id=2016&is_playoffs=N&team_id=SAS&opp_id=&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&c1stat=mp&c1comp=ge&c1val=50&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=ge&c4val=&order_by=diff_pts

Which you just conveniently added a bias, that is, filtering out less than 50 minutes played together.

The entire data set you have has just 27 sample points and is biased in including mostly players who played a lot together.

Give me a bigger sample size and let's talk.

While you are at it, maybe you should look at Aldridge shot chart.

Here is Spurs eFG% http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/shooting/?sort=EFF_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*SAS&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Guess who are the bottom 3? LMA, Green, McCallum

[Mel_13]

Which you just conveniently added a bias, that is, filtering out less than 50 minutes played together.

The entire data set you have has just 27 sample points and is biased in including mostly players who played a lot together.

Give me a bigger sample size and let's talk.

While you are at it, maybe you should look at Aldridge shot chart.

Here is Spurs eFG% http://stats.nba.com/tracking/#!/player/shooting/?sort=EFF_FG_PCT&dir=1&CF=TEAM_ABBREVIATION*E*SAS&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season

Guess who are the bottom 3? LMA, Green, McCallum

"You're biased by including all the samples with the most data"

#ceperez

[SAGirl]

There was a lineup with Danny that looked intriguing agains the Nuggets. If I recall, it had Bobo and Marjanovic posting up and you had Mills, Danny and Simmons(?). Bobo was consistenly posting up and with Marjanovic on the other side of the paint, the wings had a ton of space.

I watched the sections they played again. On a second look the game was interesting for the Pop experiments. Anderson didn't struggle as much as I remember and he was aggressive, which he needs to be to develop. He just made a couple of mistakes in a row and it was complicated by the Nuggets making a run with a series if consecutive Pnr between Nelson and Jokic. Sad to say Jokic did a number on Boban to finish the game scoring consecutively like4-5 Times in a row. Patty is poor defending PnR and needs a lot if help. Seems like Jokic figured Boban out. Kyle distracted from that bc Pop is really strict on him and Kyle himself git frustrated. Of anyone else in the team, he's really the youngster that is still developing and will have to learn through episodes like that.

But the whole point is that Pop experimented with combining the wings. He had Kawhi/Simmons to start followed by Kyle/Danny. Then he had Kyle/Simmons. All of these with different big men obviously. The whole game Simmons was at SG, Kyle at SF. I think all pairings worked really well for the most part. Kyle's traveling call at the end was questionable. He dribbled and wasn't pivoting. Can't get angry at him being aggressive and making a mistake. His going under a screen on Barton was the egregious mistake, and he dribbled into a trap bc he tried to run the PnR w/ LMA and was indecisive. He needs to speed up the pass and cutters need to show to help. It will happen as he starts to make reads out of side PnR a feature of the Spurs offense.

I liked that Pops combinations had everyone at their natural positions. I though all guys worked well with each other.

[ceperez]

I watched the sections they played again. On a second look the game was interesting for the Pop experiments. Anderson didn't struggle as much as I remember and he was aggressive, which he needs to be to develop. He just made a couple of mistakes in a row and it was complicated by the Nuggets making a run with a series if consecutive Pnr between Nelson and Jokic. Sad to say Jokic did a number on Boban to finish the game scoring consecutively like4-5 Times in a row. Patty is poor defending PnR and needs a lot if help. Seems like Jokic figured Boban out. Kyle distracted from that bc Pop is really strict on him and Kyle himself git frustrated. Of anyone else in the team, he's really the youngster that is still developing and will have to learn through episodes like that.

But the whole point is that Pop experimented with combining the wings. He had Kawhi/Simmons to start followed by Kyle/Danny. Then he had Kyle/Simmons. All of these with different big men obviously. The whole game Simmons was at SG, Kyle at SF. I think all pairings worked really well for the most part. Kyle's traveling call at the end was questionable. He dribbled and wasn't pivoting. Can't get angry at him being aggressive and making a mistake. His going under a screen on Barton was the egregious mistake, and he dribbled into a trap bc he tried to run the PnR w/ LMA and was indecisive. He needs to speed up the pass and cutters need to show to help. It will happen as he starts to make reads out of side PnR a feature of the Spurs offense.

I liked that Pops combinations had everyone at their natural positions. I though all guys worked well with each other.

KA in general had a good game except for that one play where Pop yanked him out.

[tholdren]

This stagnation has not been new. It's just a product of trash ballin from the streets. Spurs are not immune. 20 pt runs are a regular occurrence as well as being unable to end it. Surprisingly, sa has done a much better job this year pulling away. Still lack an automatic bucket or a pace holder due to the overuse of jumpers

[SAGirl]

Kyle is like Pop's favorite whipping boy. The upside though is that he gets to play. There's also a demand on him to make the difficult play when the clock expires. He got yanked by Pop when he let the clock expire against the Nuggets.

Right now Kyle is getting the Tony Parker treatment... which is a good thing.

The one who's really be treated badly though is Ray McCallum. Think about it, Pop subs him in for Kyle to emphasizes Kyle's mistake. Ray plays for a minute, but never sniffs the court after that. What does this say? It says to Kyle, I'm subbing you with the worst player on the team. To add insult to injury, I'm going to let the worst player in for just 1 minute!

Pop is a perfectionist when it comes to play. What do you think is going through his mind when he sees what LMA is doing on the court? It is driving him nuts and it is spilling out in conversation in public places.

I think Pop has gone crazy with many guys he can't afford to sub out. You see it in Pop's body language. Occasionally he still gets on guys. I have seen him get on Boris and Danny still.

I have been following the Spurs very recently so I have missed Pop's coaching of other young prospects. I even missed Kawhi and Danny's first couple of years and Kawhi reportedly was special from the very beginning, but Danny was not. Cojo wasn't even seen much specially early.

I only caught Baynes' s development and it is not really comparable, bc Baynes was a vet who needed to adjust his game, he was not some youngster with upside being molded and just learning to play in the pros. Reminds me of a less upside Boban, just in the fact that they are older players who need to adapt their games, not youngsters still figuring themselves out.

POP got Ray in the game to talk to Kyle about the shot clock violation. It wasn't even for Ray' s benefit. Now that was concerning, not for Kyle, but for Ray. Pop cares about coaching Kyle, and will be super strict I suspect bc he has upside and it will help him improve. It makes sense if he figures to be in the Spurs rotation in the future as well.

Ray apparently has completely fallen out and us on the opposite spectrum. POP not going at him bc he has no upside and is limited, it would seem. I wonder if he's still in their plans.

[SAGirl]

Bobo may need to be with the starters for (1) better passing (2) better screens (3) additional 3 point threat (4) a post up game. One of either Duncan or Aldridge needs to move to the second unit.

Spurs are missing Tiago's screens and his passing. That's why it is so messed up now with LMA only exerting effort when he's the focus of the offense. LMA needs a change of attitude or he should be given a change of scenery.

#ceperez

Like your sense if humor # ceperez!:lol

[ChumpDumper]

trash ballin from the streets:lmao

[SAGirl]

We've been spoiled with TD and splitter and baynes all these years. But youre right... those picks are shit. Not sure if hes halfassing because its the regular season, or if hes soft.

I think he was getting called for moving screens a whole lot very early in the season so he fakes them to avoid the foul call. At this point, it's probably bad habits. That is the bad aspect of not developing the talent ourselves. You get older guys, they already have their game and bad habits that are tough to break.

[spurs10]

I watched the sections they played again. On a second look the game was interesting for the Pop experiments. Anderson didn't struggle as much as I remember and he was aggressive, which he needs to be to develop. He just made a couple of mistakes in a row and it was complicated by the Nuggets making a run with a series if consecutive Pnr between Nelson and Jokic. Sad to say Jokic did a number on Boban to finish the game scoring consecutively like4-5 Times in a row. Patty is poor defending PnR and needs a lot if help. Seems like Jokic figured Boban out. Kyle distracted from that bc Pop is really strict on him and Kyle himself git frustrated. Of anyone else in the team, he's really the youngster that is still developing and will have to learn through episodes like that.

But the whole point is that Pop experimented with combining the wings. He had Kawhi/Simmons to start followed by Kyle/Danny. Then he had Kyle/Simmons. All of these with different big men obviously. The whole game Simmons was at SG, Kyle at SF. I think all pairings worked really well for the most part. Kyle's traveling call at the end was questionable. He dribbled and wasn't pivoting. Can't get angry at him being aggressive and making a mistake. His going under a screen on Barton was the egregious mistake, and he dribbled into a trap bc he tried to run the PnR w/ LMA and was indecisive. He needs to speed up the pass and cutters need to show to help. It will happen as he starts to make reads out of side PnR a feature of the Spurs offense.

I liked that Pops combinations had everyone at their natural positions. I though all guys worked well with each other. I'll have to re-watch the end, but were they switching on Jokic and the pnr ball handler?

[ceperez]

POP got Ray in the game to talk to Kyle about the shot clock violation. It wasn't even for Ray' s benefit. Now that was concerning, not for Kyle, but for Ray. Pop cares about coaching Kyle, and will be super strict I suspect bc he has upside and it will help him improve. It makes sense if he figures to be in the Spurs rotation in the future as well.

Ray apparently has completely fallen out and us on the opposite spectrum. POP not going at him bc he has no upside and is limited, it would seem. I wonder if he's still in their plans.

There are zero odds that Ray McCallum salvaging his Spurs career. Players are put in the game to at least show what they can do, Ray was put in to serve an example to Anderson. Pop had no interest in what Ray could do in the court. His only interest was to humiliate Anderson. To do that, he uses Ray. In short, it not only humiliates Anderson but even worse, what does it say about Ray?

[ceperez]

We've been spoiled with TD and splitter and baynes all these years. But youre right... those picks are shit. Not sure if hes halfassing because its the regular season, or if hes soft.

LMA is clueless. The reason why you work on the picks is that you need to get the timing right.

Compare LMA to David West. West comes in and knows that even that he's a Vet, is happy to learn new things.

So West ends up in the Nuggets with 6 assists. LMA has zero assists. LMA just stands around in the elbow supposedly waiting for a pass. Then when he gets it, he doesn't just catch and shoot. He pump fakes!!!

[ChumpDumper]

There are zero odds that Ray McCallum salvaging his Spurs career. Players are put in the game to at least show what they can do, Ray was put in to serve an example to Anderson. Pop had no interest in what Ray could do in the court. His only interest was to humiliate Anderson. To do that, he uses Ray. In short, it not only humiliates Anderson but even worse, what does it say about Ray?McCallum is the third string point guard in his first season with the Spurs. He can't expect to play meaningful minutes while Parker and Mills are available. I won't be surprised if he is assigned to Austin again.

[ceperez]

McCallum is the third string point guard in his first season with the Spurs. He can't expect to play meaningful minutes while Parker and Mills are available. I won't be surprised if he is assigned to Austin again.

If PATFO has any intention of developing him, you would see some exposure come garbage time. He can't even sniff the floor in garbage time. He's pretty much done.

[ChumpDumper]

If PATFO has any intention of developing him, you would see some exposure come garbage time. He can't even sniff the floor in garbage time. He's pretty much done.OK, coach.

[SAGirl]

I'll have to re-watch the end, but were they switching on Jokic and the pnr ball handler?
It was just a simple PnR but I guess Patty was not really bothering the pass and Jokic was screening Patty easy. Boban had to backtrack in the paint and Jokic had easy jump hooks and floaters. I say Jokic figured him out bc on post up one on one like he was doing in the first half Boban blocked him and really made it difficult. But on the PnR, Boban was giving space backtracking and Jokic is skilled enough to finish with an array of hooks. After Pop put West in the PnR (it was with Foye, not Nelson) cooled down.

[benefactor]

Starting to think ceperez is one the most effective trolls in this sites history.

[ChumpDumper]

McCallum is the third string point guard in his first season with the Spurs. He can't expect to play meaningful minutes while Parker and Mills are available. I won't be surprised if he is assigned to Austin again.


If PATFO has any intention of developing him, you would see some exposure come garbage time. He can't even sniff the floor in garbage time. He's pretty much done.


SPURS ASSIGN RAY McCALLUM TO AUSTIN SPURS

SAN ANTONIO (Dec. 27, 2015) – The San Antonio Spurs today announced that they have assigned guard Ray McCallum to the Austin Spurs of the NBA Development League.
McCallum, 6-3/190, is averaging 1.6 points in 7.1 minutes in 13 appearances with San Antonio this season. The assignment marks McCallum’s third stint with the Austin Spurs, where he has averaged 16.5 points, 3.8 rebounds and 4.5 assists in 37.8 minutes in four total appearances this season.

http://austin.dleague.nba.com/news/spurs-assign-ray-mccallum-to-austin-spurs-2/

The Toros actually play in the ATT Center Tuesday. I think Ray and maybe another Spur may be assigned for that if they sit out the Spurs game Monday.

#coachperez

[spurs10]

It was just a simple PnR but I guess Patty was not really bothering the pass and Jokic was screening Patty easy. Boban had to backtrack in the paint and Jokic had easy jump hooks and floaters. I say Jokic figured him out bc on post up one on one like he was doing in the first half Boban blocked him and really made it difficult. But on the PnR, Boban was giving space backtracking and Jokic is skilled enough to finish with an array of hooks. After Pop put West in the PnR (it was with Foye, not Nelson) cooled down. Yes Foye. At the time I thought Patty was switching to Jokic and getting torched by his size. This will certain be looked at on film and Boban can give less space. Jokic is a skilled player, I was impressed with him. He was off the bench I believe.

[SAGirl]

http://austin.dleague.nba.com/news/spurs-assign-ray-mccallum-to-austin-spurs-2/

The Toros actually play in the ATT Center Tuesday. I think Ray and maybe another Spur may be assigned for that if they sit out the Spurs game Monday.

#coachperez

I'd like Kyle to go. He could really use playing time. Subpar competition, yes. But let him have some post ups and let him run the offense for a few minutes, hone that decision making of his.

I am not strictly firm on Ray. We have seen little of him, it may very well be that Anderson was due to get attention from Pop since he was the one "banished" last season. Simmons can play and even very early it seemed questionable to me that dleague would help him at all bc he had already been there for 2 years. At that point I thought, he could either make it or not, but more development time was unnecessary.

I would have thought the same about Ray (2 year player with NBA minutes), but he might just find himself like Kyle last season. Kyle wasn't going to figure to be in the rotation in a stacked team at all and yet as a young player, he still needed playing time to improve, so dleague most of the season it was. Ray is not a rookie but he's still young and is in a similar boat as Kyle last season, if he's not going to be in the rotation, dleague minutes it is. That way Pop can focus his attention on the guys that are really in the rotation, LMA integration, and a couple of projects in Boban and Kyle who have upside and may really need to be relied upon next season, so they need Pop's attention and time now.

Ray' s future with the team is a mystery.

[tmtcsc]

I think LMA needs to stop hesitating and looking for the next pass when he is clearly open. All too often this year, he seems to catch the ball, look to pass, and when no one is open, he starts to post up with no intention of shooting. He then puts his back to the basket, takes a dribble, looks to pass again and then ends up pump-faking a shot and throwing up a wild miss.

In the 4th quarter against Houston, he was standing around watching the offense instead of being an active part of it. Tim had to be the aggressor when it is obvious that's what the coaching staff wants LMA to do. He should be the bigger threat on O at this point.

[Kawhitstorm]

I think LMA needs to stop hesitating and looking for the next pass when he is clearly open. All too often this year, he seems to catch the ball, look to pass, and when no one is open, he starts to post up with no intention of shooting. He then puts his back to the basket, takes a dribble, looks to pass again and then ends up pump-faking a shot and throwing up a wild miss.



Old habit dies hard, he is used to making his move then passing the ball when he's doubled. He is still not comfortable w/ the idea of "good to great" thus he is having to hold the ball & assess about his next move (instead of making quick reads) which is disrupting his rhythm. Repetition is the only way to improve his reads just like QBs & eventually he will start making quick decisions.:toast

[ceperez]

Old habit dies hard, he is used to making his move then passing the ball when he's doubled. He is still not comfortable w/ the idea of "good to great" thus he is having to hold the ball & assess about his next move (instead of making quick reads) which is disrupting his rhythm. Repetition is the only way to improve his reads just like QBs & eventually he will start making quick decisions.:toast

If David West can figure it out (see game against Nuggets), then LMA have better figure it out pronto.

If LMA can't then I don't know if the rules allow the Spurs to send him to the D-league!

[Kawhitstorm]

Yes Foye. At the time I thought Patty was switching to Jokic and getting torched by his size. This will certain be looked at on film and Boban can give less space. Jokic is a skilled player, I was impressed with him. He was off the bench I believe.

It's difficult to ICE the PnR when Patty isn't fighting the screener thus Boban had no choice but to backtrack so he can protect the rim except Jokic is an offensive skilled big man & took advantage. Boban would be fine sagging off on a less skilled big men such as Capela/Zaza.

[Kawhitstorm]

If David West can figure it out (see game against Nuggets), then LMA have better figure it out pronto.

If LMA can't then I don't know if the rules allow the Spurs to send him to the D-league!

David West has always been a very good passer who played off other stars (Cp3/Granger/Paul George) as opposed to being the man like LMA who drew double teams.

[ceperez]

I think LMA needs to stop hesitating and looking for the next pass when he is clearly open. All too often this year, he seems to catch the ball, look to pass, and when no one is open, he starts to post up with no intention of shooting. He then puts his back to the basket, takes a dribble, looks to pass again and then ends up pump-faking a shot and throwing up a wild miss.

In the 4th quarter against Houston, he was standing around watching the offense instead of being an active part of it. Tim had to be the aggressor when it is obvious that's what the coaching staff wants LMA to do. He should be the bigger threat on O at this point.

He's hesitating not only in passing but shooting the ball. Those hesitations are killer because they do nothing but reset the offense. The Spurs cannot afford that since they typically spend a lot of time in offense passing the ball. This accounts for the statistically low pace of the Spurs.

He is getting paid $20/million a year. If he's still clueless as to what his role is, then he's much dumber a player that I had actually thought.

[tmtcsc]

I'd like to see LA be a little more selfish. Shoot the good shot and not necessarily the great shot. His 'good' shots are pretty money. Tim is more often than not, prepared to rebound. I think Tim came in this year thinking his job was to defend and rebound.

[skulls138]

I'd like to see LA be a little more selfish. Shoot the good shot and not necessarily the great shot. His 'good' shots are pretty money. Tim is more often than not, prepared to rebound. I think Tim came in this year thinking his job was to defend and rebound.You could say that about the Spurs as a whole. They are getting a little too pass happy these days. They need to shoot without hesitation if theyre open.

[skulls138]

I like what Bird said about shooting when he was coach of Pacers. If youre open and youre a shooter, ALWAYS shoot it but also if youre going to do that you have to shoot 500 baskets a day. And thats coming from someone who was an excellent passer.

[benefactor]

He's hesitating not only in passing but shooting the ball. Those hesitations are killer because they do nothing but reset the offense. The Spurs cannot afford that since they typically spend a lot of time in offense passing the ball. This accounts for the statistically low pace of the Spurs.

He is getting paid $20/million a year. If he's still clueless as to what his role is, then he's much dumber a player that I had actually thought.
:lol you accusing anyone of being dumb

[benefactor]

He's hesitating not only in passing but shooting the ball. Those hesitations are killer because they do nothing but reset the offense. The Spurs cannot afford that since they typically spend a lot of time in offense passing the ball. This accounts for the statistically low pace of the Spurs.

He is getting paid $20/million a year. If he's still clueless as to what his role is, then he's much dumber a player that I had actually thought.
:lol you accusing anyone of being dumb

[ceperez]

:lol you accusing anyone of being dumb

Do you have a reading level higher than grade 2?

[benefactor]

Do you have a reading level higher than grade 2?
Don't know. How are Kori and the kiddos? I'm sure they are getting pretty big by now.

[benefactor]

Not Kori getting big...the kids. No offense meant.

[sasaint]

If PATFO has any intention of developing him, you would see some exposure come garbage time. He can't even sniff the floor in garbage time. He's pretty much done.

I tend to agree with your take on Ray. But on the other hand, Patty pretty much sat in the last seat on the bench, waving a towel and cheerleading for his entire first season.

[ceperez]

Don't know. How are Kori and the kiddos? I'm sure they are getting pretty big by now.

Unlike timvp, I never did give up on the Spurs during the dark years.

[ChumpDumper]

Unlike timvp, I never did give up on the Spurs during the dark years.Eh, he and Kori adopted a busload of kids at once. Posting about the Spurs is far down the priority list.

[benefactor]

Unlike timvp, I never did give up on the Spurs during the dark years.
It's all good LJ. Sorry I told you to die in a fire. Can't remember if I ever actually apologized. I was pretty drunk tbh.

[SAGirl]

I like what Bird said about shooting when he was coach of Pacers. If youre open and youre a shooter, ALWAYS shoot it but also if youre going to do that you have to shoot 500 baskets a day. And thats coming from someone who was an excellent passer.
Nice quote!!

[ceperez]

I tend to agree with your take on Ray. But on the other hand, Patty pretty much sat in the last seat on the bench, waving a towel and cheerleading for his entire first season.

Warming the bench isn't evidence that a player will ever become part of the rotation. It's is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.

[sasaint]

Like your sense if humor # ceperez!:lol

Maybe the humor of ceperez is too subtle for me. I missed it. He was stating the position I have seriously advocated from the beginning of the season. The lineup of LMA, Boris, Manu, Kawhi and Patty has a NET RTG of 24.8, which is second among our most frequent 9 lineups. Start with those guys and sub for Manu at the six minute mark. Pick a few opponents and try it.

[sasaint]

Warming the bench isn't evidence that a player will ever become part of the rotation. It's is a necessary but not a sufficient condition.

My point is that warming the bench isn't necessarily an indication that a player is "pretty much done," either. It wasn't in Patty's case, but I agree, it seems to be in Ray's case. But just a feeling, though.

[sasaint]

Considering the age of this team, you're not going to have your proverbial "cake and eat it too" with this squad, meaning the offense and defense won't be equally as good on most nights. Historically, elite defensive teams will have offensive struggles because of the energy you have to expend on the defensive end. This is why defensive minded teams tend to use more isolation in the post. When you have an elite defensive team (and it's possible this Spurs team can be historically good defensively), you want to slow the pace down and turn it into a half court affair.

For people wondering why the Spurs starters don't move off the ball more, that is why. No doubt some offensive sets are called to give Kawhi, Green, and even Parker a rest. When you see Kawhi standing around while LMA posts up, that is probably what's happening.

The offense could "look" prettier, but you're not going to be able to have a fluid motion offense and be able to play elite (top 2) defense at the same time. That said, the starting offense could be better, and I think the primary culprit is Danny Green.

Look what happens when you switch out Manu for Green:

http://stats.nba.com/league/lineups/#!/advanced/?sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=1

The NET RTG goes from 6.2 to 28.6.

Look at the other 5 man units. All of the weakest feature Danny Green (aside from the last one, which is probably just an anomaly).

Here's another take-away: the lineup of Boris, DWest, Manu, Patty and Kawhi has a NET RTG of 21.8, while the lineup of Boris, DWest, Manu, Patty and Danny has a NET RTG of -8.6 :wow "Turd Towers" taking a lot of undeserved heat on ST that should be focused on Danny?

[ceperez]

My point is that warming the bench isn't necessarily an indication that a player is "pretty much done," either. It wasn't in Patty's case, but I agree, it seems to be in Ray's case. But just a feeling, though.

To be honest, we just speculate at ST as to what PATFO is thinking based on the little morsels of data we as fans can extract. I don't know what PATFO sees during practice. We only see what McCallum does on the court and that's just a small slice of the data.

However, we can kind of extrapolate based on how a player is being treated.

We know that Anderson is getting the Tony Parker (i.e. whipping boy) treatment, and we conclude that is a good thing.

We know that Simmons is getting the kid gloves treatment and getting a decent proportion of playing time and we conclude that is a good thing.

Now for Ray McCallum, we heard praise from RC in pre-season. So we all were expecting Cojo like minutes. Unfortunately, he's not even sniffing the court in blow-outs. He's wearing a suit even when Spurs rest their veterans. It is like Pop doesn't even care that he's even in the roster.

The second tell is that he's just like CoJo in that he can't make plays. He absolutely can't pass.

There are a few other players in the Spurs that can't pass (Bonner, Green, Aldridge) but they are excused from their ineptness because they aren't point guards. A point guard must know how to pass, that's just fundamental.

[GSH]

It's pretty clear to me that someone has gone off his/her meds.

[sasaint]

Bobo may need to be with the starters for (1) better passing (2) better screens (3) additional 3 point threat (4) a post up game. One of either Duncan or Aldridge needs to move to the second unit.

Spurs are missing Tiago's screens and his passing. That's why it is so messed up now with LMA only exerting effort when he's the focus of the offense. LMA needs a change of attitude or he should be given a change of scenery.

#ceperez

Before he signed with us, and I saw him play a lot more, I had no idea that LMA was so averse to contact. It shows in his screen setting, his always popping rather than rolling, and in his refusal to bully much lighter defenders like Capela in the Houston game and his complete reliance on fade-aways.

According to the numbers, a very good starting lineup would be LMA, Boris, Manu, Kawhi and Patty (24.8 NET RTG). However, that points up another issue: Manu's age. He could be a token starter, but he obviously cannot absorb starter's minutes. So we would have to sub for him quickly and pick spots for him the rest of the way. Bottom line is that 24.8 NET reflects a lineup that can only be maintained for far less time than you want out of your starters. Probably another reason that Pop seems to be fast-tracking Simmons over Kyle. We need somebody who can offer Manu relief, preserving him for the playoffs, and Simmons is a much better facsimile than Kyle.

[SAGirl]

Maybe the humor of ceperez is too subtle for me. I missed it. He was stating the position I have seriously advocated from the beginning of the season. The lineup of LMA, Boris, Manu, Kawhi and Patty has a NET RTG of 24.8, which is second among our most frequent 9 lineups. Start with those guys and sub for Manu at the six minute mark. Pick a few opponents and try it.

I thought his own acknowledgement of the hashtag #ceperez was funny! lol

Its been a few days already that his takes have been hashtagged and maybe ridiculed by some.

He just acknowledged his controversial takes and owned them.

I thought it was funny.

:lol

There are many controversial posters. Heck I should have my own hashtag: #SAGirl (Go Slow mo Go)!!!
:bobo :flag:

[ceperez]

Before he signed with us, and I saw him play a lot more, I had no idea that LMA was so averse to contact. It shows in his screen setting, his always popping rather than rolling, and in his refusal to bully much lighter defenders like Capela in the Houston game and his complete reliance on fade-aways.

According to the numbers, a very good starting lineup would be LMA, Boris, Manu, Kawhi and Patty (24.8 NET RTG). However, that points up another issue: Manu's age. He could be a token starter, but he obviously cannot absorb starter's minutes. So we would have to sub for him quickly and pick spots for him the rest of the way. Bottom line is that 24.8 NET reflects a lineup that can only be maintained for far less time than you want out of your starters. Probably another reason that Pop seems to be fast-tracking Simmons over Kyle. We need somebody who can offer Manu relief, preserving him for the playoffs, and Simmons is a much better facsimile than Kyle.

Hit the nail on the head about not bullying Capela. C'mon, Capela is like 100lbs lighter than LMA. Guess what LMA does, he scores 6 points in the final half of the game. He can't take the contact? Sheesh!

LMA, Boris, Kawhi, (Simmons), Patty may in fact be the Spurs most potent lineup. However, I like Boban, Boris, Kawhi, Simmons, Patty better. I think LMA is too much of a diva and just doesn't bring the toughness (or in Pop's words, the nasty).

[sasaint]

Hit the nail on the head about not bullying Capela. C'mon, Capela is like 100lbs lighter than LMA. Guess what LMA does, he scores 6 points in the final half of the game. He can't take the contact? Sheesh!

LMA, Boris, Kawhi, (Simmons), Patty may in fact be the Spurs most potent lineup. However, I like Boban, Boris, Kawhi, Simmons, Patty better. I think LMA is too much of a diva and just doesn't bring the toughness (or in Pop's words, the nasty).

:toast You said it!!! Too bad I didn't CC you on my comments during the Houston game thread. From the opening possession of the game, when LMA refused to back Capela under the basket for a jam, I was hollering that LMA needs Nasty. :lol The Boban Knows!

[SAGirl]

Here's another take-away: the lineup of Boris, DWest, Manu, Patty and Kawhi has a NET RTG of 21.8, while the lineup of Boris, DWest, Manu, Patty and Danny has a NET RTG of -8.6 :wow "Turd Towers" taking a lot of undeserved heat on ST that should be focused on Danny?

I don't know that is is the "turd towers". I had not looked at that statistic, but the eye test completely told me Danny wasn't very good with the bench as it is. He wasn't simply going to get good looks to shoot the 3. The bench is less reliant on Manu to create for others, unless it is with a pass. In actuality all bench players nowadays can get their own shots and have. Patty is doing much more in the offense with the ball and has even taken up isolations to close out quarters (used to be strictly Manu's territory). Whether you have Simmons or Anderson there, they also handle the ball, and pass and create for others (different games but both are capable). Danny doesn't fit with them, ballhandling and passing is a weakness of his, and he has caused TO to a unit that is already prone to them bc they are too unselfish and risky passing at times to begin with.

Quite frankly if you remember from almost day one the dilemma started with bench Danny/play Anderson/Simmons, I always objected that Danny wasn't good with the bench. I didn't bother to back it down, but here are the stats.

[sasaint]

I thought his own acknowledgement of the hashtag #ceperez was funny! lol

Its been a few days already that his takes have been hashtagged and maybe ridiculed by some.

He just acknowledged his controversial takes and owned them.

I thought it was funny.

:lol

There are many controversial posters. Heck I should have my own hashtag: #SAGirl (Go Slow mo Go)!!!
:bobo :flag:

Tbh, hashtags and such - even some ST acronyms - pretty much escape me.

#sasaint (geezer)

[ceperez]

Maybe the humor of ceperez is too subtle for me. I missed it. He was stating the position I have seriously advocated from the beginning of the season. The lineup of LMA, Boris, Manu, Kawhi and Patty has a NET RTG of 24.8, which is second among our most frequent 9 lineups. Start with those guys and sub for Manu at the six minute mark. Pick a few opponents and try it.

The really innovative lineup was the one I just saw against the Nuggets. Boris was pounding the paint with Boban on the otherside sucking in defenders. I honestly think Boris is the best playmaker now in the Spurs. Manu is just too erratic a player.

The neat thing about this play is that you got 3 opponents defending the paint against 2 players. Now you have versatile players on the wing that can hit the open 3.

[SAGirl]

It's pretty clear to me that someone has gone off his/her meds.
:lol

[sasaint]

The really innovative lineup was the one I just saw against the Nuggets. Boris was pounding the paint with Boban on the otherside sucking in defenders. I honestly think Boris is the best playmaker now in the Spurs. Manu is just too erratic a player.

The neat thing about this play is that you got 3 opponents defending the paint against 2 players. Now you have versatile players on the wing that can hit the open 3.

I didn't notice that particular lineup or its ramifications, as you did. But I hope we see Boban a lot more going forward. For weeks I have been wanting to give him a "baptism of fire" against the likes of Dwight, Jordan other one-dimensional bigs. Give the guy a shot. If it doesn't work, make a substitution. We are not obligated to stick with anybody. I do not understand why Pop hasn't tried that. Perhaps that is one of his CIA strategies Pop is saving for the playoffs. :lol

[sasaint]

It's pretty clear to me that someone has gone off his/her meds.

I'll bite. Me or ceperez... or both?

[ceperez]

I didn't notice that particular lineup or its ramifications, as you did. But I hope we see Boban a lot more going forward. For weeks I have been wanting to give him a "baptism of fire" against the likes of Dwight, Jordan other one-dimensional bigs. Give the guy a shot. If it doesn't work, make a substitution. We are not obligated to stick with anybody. I do not understand why Pop hasn't tried that. Perhaps that is one of his CIA strategies Pop is saving for the playoffs. :lol

I don't think we should be too concerned about Boban not getting enough burn. He's a European player that may not be used to the number of games played in the NBA. Best to keep his fresh come playoff time.

The good sign though is that his game is improving despite not getting a lot of court time.

[sasaint]

I don't know that is is the "turd towers". I had not looked at that statistic, but the eye test completely told me Danny wasn't very good with the bench as it is. He wasn't simply going to get good looks to shoot the 3. The bench is less reliant on Manu to create for others, unless it is with a pass. In actuality all bench players nowadays can get their own shots and have. Patty is doing much more in the offense with the ball and has even taken up isolations to close out quarters (used to be strictly Manu's territory). Whether you have Simmons or Anderson there, they also handle the ball, and pass and create for others (different games but both are capable). Danny doesn't fit with them, ballhandling and passing is a weakness of his, and he has caused TO to a unit that is already prone to them bc they are too unselfish and risky passing at times to begin with.

Quite frankly if you remember from almost day one the dilemma started with bench Danny/play Anderson/Simmons, I always objected that Danny wasn't good with the bench. I didn't bother to back it down, but here are the stats.

Seems like playmakers is who he used to fit best with, and should therefore fit well with these guys. That is a real paradox that I don't get.

Patty has, indeed, expanded his game - with results that are mixed, but still much better than Danny's results.

[ceperez]

I don't know that is is the "turd towers". I had not looked at that statistic, but the eye test completely told me Danny wasn't very good with the bench as it is. He wasn't simply going to get good looks to shoot the 3. The bench is less reliant on Manu to create for others, unless it is with a pass. In actuality all bench players nowadays can get their own shots and have. Patty is doing much more in the offense with the ball and has even taken up isolations to close out quarters (used to be strictly Manu's territory). Whether you have Simmons or Anderson there, they also handle the ball, and pass and create for others (different games but both are capable). Danny doesn't fit with them, ballhandling and passing is a weakness of his, and he has caused TO to a unit that is already prone to them bc they are too unselfish and risky passing at times to begin with.

Quite frankly if you remember from almost day one the dilemma started with bench Danny/play Anderson/Simmons, I always objected that Danny wasn't good with the bench. I didn't bother to back it down, but here are the stats.

Where are the stats?

[ceperez]

Seems like playmakers is who he used the fit best with, and should therefore fit well with these guys. That is a real paradox that I don't get.

Patty has, indeed, expanded his game - with results that are mixed, but still much better than Danny's results.

Doesn't Danny need to get a screen to get separation from his defender? Without Tiago, who's doing the screening?

If that's LMA's job, then we now now why Green can't get free. LMA screens are just MIA.

[SAGirl]

Before he signed with us, and I saw him play a lot more, I had no idea that LMA was so averse to contact. It shows in his screen setting, his always popping rather than rolling, and in his refusal to bully much lighter defenders like Capela in the Houston game and his complete reliance on fade-aways.

According to the numbers, a very good starting lineup would be LMA, Boris, Manu, Kawhi and Patty (24.8 NET RTG). However, that points up another issue: Manu's age. He could be a token starter, but he obviously cannot absorb starter's minutes. So we would have to sub for him quickly and pick spots for him the rest of the way. Bottom line is that 24.8 NET reflects a lineup that can only be maintained for far less time than you want out of your starters. Probably another reason that Pop seems to be fast-tracking Simmons over Kyle. We need somebody who can offer Manu relief, preserving him for the playoffs, and Simmons is a much better facsimile than Kyle.
It was one of the things that I found interesting in the Denver game.
The wing rotations were:
Kawhi/Danny,
Kawhi/Simmons
Kyle/Danny
Kyle/Simmons

When Kyle got benched, it was Kawhi/Simmons to close it.

No need to say anything about Kawhi, he makes everyone better and will be good and do his thing with whomever you put next to him. The mark of a true superstar.

All three other guys worked fairly well with each other in all combinations though. I actually thought despite the lack of athleticism and quickness between them, Kyle/Danny meshed well. Danny provides spacing for Kyle to post up that is not there with Simmons. Kyle's post up came with Danny lobbing the ball. Danny's defender did not commit to the double, allowing Kyle to practice the post up. If Kyle were to develop his post up game more, a pairing with Danny could work, they actually were a positive together.

Kyle/Simmons did well too, even defensively they were good, actually Kyle collaborated with Simmons on some defensive plays that ended up with Simmons' steals. I think all guys are interchangeable. The Kyle/Simmons pairing is the one with less experience combined, so maybe Pop will not have them together too much in a post Manu world. Maybe in future games we will see a bit more from these combos.

[SAGirl]

Where are the stats?
The ones sasaint cited concerning the lineups ratings... somewhere in this thread, a few posts before this one.

[SAGirl]

Seems like playmakers is who he used to fit best with, and should therefore fit well with these guys. That is a real paradox that I don't get.

Patty has, indeed, expanded his game - with results that are mixed, but still much better than Danny's results.

I have to take you back to the Wizards game we lost early in the season.

Anderson injured a shoulder drawing a shooting foul in the first half. He was good, scored 4 points, and helped the bench in getting a come back bc the SL drew a null to start.

The second half, Anderson didn't play. It wasn't a Pop gimmick or benching him or anything. I later learned through a tweet, the coaches at halftime held him out in spite of him saying he was fine (you know Pop super careful with his guys).

The second half a lineup of the bench + Butler, was doing well (that was a good game by Butler by the way), but Danny and Patty proceeded to combine for a series of TO and chaotic play that swung the momentum in Wizards favor. Once the SL entered, the TO continued between Manu/Tony, but the worst looking sequences involved Patty and Danny.

The same happened in an Atlanta game before Simmons had earned Pop's trust. Danny combining with Manu for a series of TO in a row, enter Anderson. Anderson was still in his passive state and such, but just the fact, he has much better ballhandling and passing than Danny made a significant difference and the situation quieted down.

There are many instances like that. The bench has everyone pass and make plays, its not just the one guy. Danny does attempt to do too much at times with the bench, or at least it was part of his very awful start to the season. Lately, Danny has been better with the bench, but I still do have my doubts. The bench is synergistic in that all guys can pass, and they don't rely in the one guy. Danny because of his deficiencies is a better partner with a guy who doesn't require him to do too much (like a prime MVP candidate Tony for example).

[sasaint]

Doesn't Danny need to get a screen to get separation from his defender? Without Tiago, who's doing the screening?

If that's LMA's job, then we now now why Green can't get free. LMA screens are just MIA.

Frankly, if LMA just improved his screens, I would be pretty pleased with him. I don't like ISO-ball for anybody, but I do like LMA's defense (which is much better than I expected) and his offensive boarding. I would like to see us run the same offense we ran with Tiago if LMA could only set good picks. Let him get points on PnPs, PnRs, mid-range kick-outs and offensive boards. Just set some good picks.

[SAGirl]

I have to take you back to the Wizards game we lost early in the season.

Anderson injured a shoulder drawing a shooting foul in the first half. He was good, scored 4 points, and helped the bench in getting a come back bc the SL drew a null to start.

The second half, Anderson didn't play. It wasn't a Pop gimmick or benching him or anything. I later learned through a tweet, the coaches at halftime held him out in spite of him saying he was fine (you know Pop super careful with his guys).

The second half a lineup of the bench + Butler, was doing well (that was a good game by Butler by the way), but Danny and Patty proceeded to combine for a series of TO and chaotic play that swung the momentum in Wizards favor. Once the SL entered, the TO continued between Manu/Tony, but the worst looking sequences involved Patty and Danny.

The same happened in an Atlanta game before Simmons had earned Pop's trust. Danny combining with Manu for a series of TO in a row, enter Anderson. Anderson was still in his passive state and such, but just the fact, he has much better ballhandling and passing than Danny made a significant difference and the situation quieted down.

There are many instances like that. The bench has everyone pass and make plays, its not just the one guy. Danny does attempt to do too much at times with the bench, or at least it was part of his very awful start to the season. Lately, Danny has been better with the bench, but I still do have my doubts. The bench is synergistic in that all guys can pass, and they don't rely in the one guy. Danny because of his deficiencies is a better partner with a guy who doesn't require him to do too much (like a prime MVP candidate Tony for example).


Seems like playmakers is who he used to fit best with, and should therefore fit well with these guys. That is a real paradox that I don't get.

Patty has, indeed, expanded his game - with results that are mixed, but still much better than Danny's results.

And I have to add to this, that Danny was also still shooting poorly, so if you add in his TO and poor shooting, it makes for a net negative. At least Anderson wasn't TO over, and he really set others up. Simmons is much much better since he pushes the tempo for them which is where the bench in general thrives. This is the one single reason I can point to for Danny's negative impact in the bench. It might have in fact trended up. Danny has been controlling his TO, but he's also playing with the bench less.

[sasaint]

I remember the Wiz game and Kyle getting his shoulder kinda wrenched. I remember rafts of turnovers, just not exactly the players responsible.

But I am not sure I follow your argument. The second unit is synergistic, therefore all five guys need to have playmaking /passing skill? Danny and 4 synergistic passers doesn't work? Put another way, you are suggesting that Danny messes up the second unit because he isn't more multi-dimensional?

[SAGirl]

I remember the Wiz game and Kyle getting his shoulder kinda wrenched. I remember rafts of turnovers, just not exactly the players responsible.

But I am not sure I follow your argument. The second unit is synergistic, therefore all five guys need to have playmaking /passing skill? Danny and 4 synergistic passers doesn't work?

Marco provided not only shooting, but he passed, cut, could get his own shots, and was a fairly good secondary ballhandler as well.

Simmons and Kyle are different players (from each other and from Marco), but they each can pass and set others up and get their own shots, the threat of which forces rotations that open things up for the passers to find guys. Each of these guys can handle the basketball and pass. Those are Danny's weaknesses.

The TO in Wiz, did involve Danny, both on bad passes, as well as fumbling the ball. ... also the Atlanta game I mentioned (the one at home, not the one on the road). In general, I have not observed Danny be better with the bench than he's been with the SL and he's probably masked better with the starters, who should require less passing and driving from him than they are, and where a low usage player like him, who spaces the floor and can take difficult defensive assignments, thus sparing Kawhi to close out a game, should be very valuable.

Anyways, the point is that while the bench revolves around the 3 players (Manu/Patty/Boris), they don't rely on a dominant guy to create for others. They actually search for shots for each other, and pass to each other and screen and relocate etc. All perimeter players put the ball on the floor and are responsible for creating shots. It is IMO a result of Manu not having the elite athleticism he used to. They instead use screens and find someone cutting, or pass when the defense scrambles. Manu himself has described this style as "chaotic". Does Danny sound to you like a guy who would thrive in a chaotic offense?

When Danny plays with them, he doesn't add any of these elements. Driving and passing on the move, catching the ball in traffic, just are not his strengths. Just what I have observed, if I could point to a single reason Danny has been a negative in the bench it is that, precisely his shot is off, and he doesn't add anything else. He doesn't create for others, he doesn't add to their passing and ball movement and when he tries, its a negative.

He in facts makes them stutter a little bit, since like I said his passing/driving is rudimentary. To me Danny is the perfect role player for a superstar, as he provides space for them to do their thing, but the bench doesn't rely on superstar, but on a collective chaotic effort.

Anyways, you can either see my point by now, or you can't. To his credit, Danny has been playing in a more controlled fashion and sticking to his strengths, hustle.

[sasaint]

You kind of make it sound like our second unit is the Harlem Globetrotters and requires 5 Meadowlark Lemons/Curly Neals on the floor to make it work. Maybe so. My point was simply that we know Danny is not good at getting his own; he needs a playmaker to get his. Seems like playing alongside 4 such players would accrue to his benefit.

[SAGirl]

You kind of make it sound like our second unit is the Harlem Globetrotters and requires 5 Meadowlark Lemons/Curly Neals on the floor to make it work. Maybe so. My point was simply that we know Danny is not good at getting his own; he needs a playmaker to get his. Seems like playing alongside 4 such players would accrue to his benefit.

It is synergistic, and yes our bench tends to get into the too pass happy department often. You can have a different theory why Danny has been a net negative with the bench, mainly it is a matter of them getting him open shots he's clanking anyways, but he also doesn't add anything else to them, and as I pointed out he's actually had very poor sequences with the bench. He's had them with the starters too, unfortunately. If anything you could say he has been no better in one lineup than the other, and his deficiencies are probably better hidden with the starters than in the bench. Even a passive/hesitant Anderson made the bench at times stutter, and he didn't make them worse, he just didn't add much to them at the time.

[cutewizard]

Why is it that LaMarcus posted incredible numbers in Portland if he is not that good in the post?

Just asking guys, im an ignoramus in basketball, forgive me

[sasaint]

It is synergistic, and yes our bench tends to get into the too pass happy department often. You can have a different theory why Danny has been a net negative with the bench, mainly it is a matter of them getting him open shots he's clanking anyways, but he also doesn't add anything else to them, and as I pointed out he's actually had very poor sequences with the bench. He's had them with the starters too, unfortunately. If anything you could say he has been no better in one lineup than the other, and his deficiencies are probably better hidden with the starters than in the bench. Even a passive/hesitant Anderson made the bench at times stutter, and he didn't make them worse, he just didn't add much to them at the time.

My theory is simple. I don't think he is any better or worse with either unit. His game is just broken - period. That is because Pop had the idea of transforming Danny into a "more complete" player, having him put the ball on the floor a lot more. After giving some thought to the position of ceperez, that probably has a lot to do with LMA's inability to set effective screens. But regardless of the cause, the effect has been to first mess with his three-point shot and, second get into his head and mess with his confidence, affecting his entire game, including his defense. The $64,000 question is can his shot be fixed -preferably sooner than later.

I think Pop probably had a few bottles of wine one evening last summer and came up with the brilliant Dr. Frankenstein idea of building Danny into a Marco who could also play defense. The Lightning was directed onto the gurney on which Danny lay and instead of zapping him to life, it just fried him.

[SAGirl]

My theory is simple. I don't think he is any better or worse with either unit. His game is just broken - period. That is because Pop had the idea of transforming Danny into a "more complete" player, having him put the ball on the floor a lot more. After giving some thought to the position of ceperez, that probably has a lot to do with LMA's inability to set effective screens. But regardless of the cause, the effect has been to first mess with his three-point shot and, second get into his head and mess with his confidence, affecting his entire game, including his defense. The $64,000 question is can his shot be fixed -preferably sooner than later.

I think Pop probably had a few bottles of wine one evening last summer and came up with the brilliant Dr. Frankenstein idea of building Danny into a Marco who could also play defense. The Lightning was directed onto the gurney on which Danny lay and instead of zapping him to life, it just fried him.
:lmao
This is a very humorous take. lol
I do think this was Danny's chance to rise to the occasion for a bigger role, as we have said before, I can't imagine Pop not acquiesce to this. Sadly, as much flak as I give him, I do like Danny, he's such a humble, team guy and the most outspoken of our younger players, so it is sad to see him struggle.

So much could be fixed if he would shoot like he used to, and stuck to his strengths. He has been detrimental everywhere, but he's been worse on the bench. Luckily he has not been playing much with the bench.

In fact for all of our speculation, Pop could be tempted to pair Simmons with Kawhi already, but he can't afford to send Danny to the bench.

Simmons so far playing only 8 minutes against playoff teams.

It is probably bc of the lack of 3 pt shooting.

Still a few months to get it together. January is going to have some challenges.

[sasaint]

:lmao
This is a very humorous take. lol
I do think this was Danny's chance to rise to the occasion for a bigger role, as we have said before, I can't imagine Pop not acquiesce to this. Sadly, as much flak as I give him, I do like Danny, he's such a humble, team guy and the most outspoken of our younger players, so it is sad to see him struggle.

So much could be fixed if he would shoot like he used to, and stuck to his strengths. He has been detrimental everywhere, but he's been worse on the bench. Luckily he has not been playing much with the bench.

In fact for all of our speculation, Pop could be tempted to pair Simmons with Kawhi already, but he can't afford to send Danny to the bench.

Simmons so far playing only 8 minutes against playoff teams.

It is probably bc of the lack of 3 pt shooting.

Still a few months to get it together. January is going to have some challenges.

Pop is fast tracking Simmons for his potential to take some time from Manu, keeping him fresher for the playoffs. If he could also relieve Danny of some of his minutes, I would be ecstatic! And Simmons has the potential (as you have observed several times) to do that to the extent he can become reliable with his corner 3 - sort of a Manu/Bowen hybrid. Next year, after a full season on the big club working with Chip, perhaps he could develop his trey from the top of the arc and the wings. Don't see that happening in time to help us this post-season, though.

[SAGirl]

Pop is fast tracking Simmons for his potential to take some time from Manu, keeping him fresher for the playoffs. If he could also relieve Danny of some of his minutes, I would be ecstatic! And Simmons has the potential (as you have observed several times) to do that to the extent he can become reliable with his corner 3 - sort of a Manu/Bowen hybrid. Next year, after a full season on the big club working with Chip, perhaps he could develop his trey from the top of the arc and the wings. Don't see that happening in time to help us this post-season, though.
We'll have to see how the rest of the season goes, I don't see Simmons or Anderson playing in the postseason as things stand right now, bc of their shooting, if anything yea 8 minutes of high energetic play from Simmons. But, there are still months to go. The good thing with young guys over vets is that they may not look like much to begin with, but unlike the old vets they can get better. Even Boban we may see (or not bc :pop:)

I kind of wanted to see Anderson in the dleague a little bit, but I am guessing by now that Pop thinks he has transcended that, and from now on he will be pushed when he does play, so who knows concerning him as well?

[sasaint]

We'll have to see how the rest of the season goes, I don't see Simmons or Anderson playing in the postseason as things stand right now, bc of their shooting, if anything yea 8 minutes of high energetic play from Simmons. But, there are still months to go. The good thing with young guys over vets is that they may not look like much to begin with, but unlike the old vets they can get better. Even Boban we may see (or not bc :pop:)

I kind of wanted to see Anderson in the dleague a little bit, but I am guessing by now that Pop thinks he has transcended that, and from now on he will be pushed when he does play, so who knows concerning him as well?

Yeah, I don't see Kyle or Simmons playing in the playoffs unless a game becomes a blowout one way or the other. Depending on the opponent, Boban may actually have a better chance of seeing playoff action. It's called shock and awe strategy. Seriously, I could see him possibly playing against some second units.

[SAGirl]

Yeah, I don't see Kyle or Simmons playing in the playoffs unless a game becomes a blowout one way or the other. Depending on the opponent, Boban may actually have a better chance of seeing playoff action. It's called shock and awe strategy. Seriously, I could see him possibly playing against some second units.
I hope Pop has been opening his eyes with Boban.
Like you and others, I thought he could have played against the Rockets, specially bc our bench got outscored badly.

And a sidetrack here.... it seems like in all games we have struggled to win or have lost even, our bench has been outscored. Either we are not scoring, or we are not stopping anybody.

There is a Patty Mills shooting road watch thread. I say, bench performance road watch thread.

[ceperez]

:lmao
This is a very humorous take. lol
I do think this was Danny's chance to rise to the occasion for a bigger role, as we have said before, I can't imagine Pop not acquiesce to this. Sadly, as much flak as I give him, I do like Danny, he's such a humble, team guy and the most outspoken of our younger players, so it is sad to see him struggle.

So much could be fixed if he would shoot like he used to, and stuck to his strengths. He has been detrimental everywhere, but he's been worse on the bench. Luckily he has not been playing much with the bench.

In fact for all of our speculation, Pop could be tempted to pair Simmons with Kawhi already, but he can't afford to send Danny to the bench.

Simmons so far playing only 8 minutes against playoff teams.

It is probably bc of the lack of 3 pt shooting.

Still a few months to get it together. January is going to have some challenges.

I wrote elsewhere that defenders need time to study and get used to their opponent. It takes more than length, quickness and hustle to contain an NBA player. Simmons got torched by the veteran Jason Terry and this likely may have been that he forgot or didn't read the scouting report.

Spurs have no choice but to stick to Danny for his experience.

I agree with your assessment about the Danny stuttering the passing offense. However there is another 2nd team lineup that doesn't require as much passing, but is more drive and kick.... or post and kick.

Boban, Bobo, Simmons/Anderson, Danny/Manu, Mills. There have been glimpses of this in the regular season. The passes are coming from the posts and these are not just ordinary passes. These are flying across the court from strong side to weak side. I kind of like the configuration because it warps the defensive alignment with defenders forced to pack the paint. It is exhausting to defend because defenders are pushing and shoving for paint position and then they are forced to run at full speed to close out shooters.

[ceperez]

I hope Pop has been opening his eyes with Boban.
Like you and others, I thought he could have played against the Rockets, specially bc our bench got outscored badly.

And a sidetrack here.... it seems like in all games we have struggled to win or have lost even, our bench has been outscored. Either we are not scoring, or we are not stopping anybody.

There is a Patty Mills shooting road watch thread. I say, bench performance road watch thread.

Boban is jelling much faster than when Baynes came along. Boban's skills are just so much more advanced than Baynes. He now rarely misses on free throws. He's got this really quick spin move. The training staff is working wonders in his game. You can just imagine the quantum leap in training from what he got in Serbia.

However in Baynes 2nd year, he made a big impact in the playoffs. The TNT crew were saying stuff like they got this guy from the Batman movies.

[ceperez]

Yeah, I don't see Kyle or Simmons playing in the playoffs unless a game becomes a blowout one way or the other. Depending on the opponent, Boban may actually have a better chance of seeing playoff action. It's called shock and awe strategy. Seriously, I could see him possibly playing against some second units.

I kind of disagree. I think Simmons would be in the playoff rotation. The way the Spurs play, the workloads are really harsh. So if you have opportunities to rest Leonard or Manu then that would be a major plus.

I can't say the same for Kyle since it'll be more dependent on match ups. If the opponent plays a multi-guard lineup then Kyle would be the guy to post up those little guys.

The big question for Pop is whether he's going to play West over Boban.

[ceperez]

:lmao
This is a very humorous take. lol
I do think this was Danny's chance to rise to the occasion for a bigger role, as we have said before, I can't imagine Pop not acquiesce to this. Sadly, as much flak as I give him, I do like Danny, he's such a humble, team guy and the most outspoken of our younger players, so it is sad to see him struggle.

So much could be fixed if he would shoot like he used to, and stuck to his strengths. He has been detrimental everywhere, but he's been worse on the bench. Luckily he has not been playing much with the bench.

In fact for all of our speculation, Pop could be tempted to pair Simmons with Kawhi already, but he can't afford to send Danny to the bench.

Simmons so far playing only 8 minutes against playoff teams.

It is probably bc of the lack of 3 pt shooting.

Still a few months to get it together. January is going to have some challenges.

If Spurs consider the regular season as practice, then I wouldn't be surprised if Pop gave Danny instructions on driving more rather than shooting. It just sucks right now, but at the very least it give Danny some exposure to tough situations.

This is just a learning process. You first build out your bread and butter and then incrementally improve it by adding variation to the game.

The best tell to read Pop's mind is if a player doesn't get taken out after a bad play. When that happens it says that it was the right play and it was just poor execution.

You know when Pop explains to the on-court interviewer that "the shots weren't going in", what he means he was satisfied with the offensive execution. Now when he says something about the team not putting in the effort, then that means he's pissed about the execution. Even worse is the comment where he says "we can't get stops", what that means is the opponent is dominating the Spurs despite playing well.

[SAGirl]

I kind of disagree. I think Simmons would be in the playoff rotation. The way the Spurs play, the workloads are really harsh. So if you have opportunities to rest Leonard or Manu then that would be a major plus.

I can't say the same for Kyle since it'll be more dependent on match ups. If the opponent plays a multi-guard lineup then Kyle would be the guy to post up those little guys.

The big question for Pop is whether he's going to play West over Boban.

Good point. I mostly don't see the newest generation playing bc lack of the 3 pt shot, but also Pop's reluctance in general. These new guys have shown they can play though very early, and have been getting better and better with more opportunities and experience. Still early in the season, still time to continue to improve.

[SAGirl]

If Spurs consider the regular season as practice, then I wouldn't be surprised if Pop gave Danny instructions on driving more rather than shooting. It just sucks right now, but at the very least it give Danny some exposure to tough situations.

This is just a learning process. You first build out your bread and butter and then incrementally improve it by adding variation to the game.

Very good point about Danny, which makes sense with Pop allowing him to work through his mistakes and I also pointed that out at the time. This aspect of Danny is a project, perhaps more of a project than Anderson, who is still barely sprouting for us. At some point it will be reassessed and adjustments made. I have seen Danny attempt more shots in the midrange or do a one dribble side step, instead of driving if he's been closed out. He's not a good midrange shooter either and the sidestep affects his rhythm, but it lends credence to the fact POP is making adjustments and they are still looking for something that works.

[sasaint]

I kind of disagree. I think Simmons would be in the playoff rotation. The way the Spurs play, the workloads are really harsh. So if you have opportunities to rest Leonard or Manu then that would be a major plus.

I can't say the same for Kyle since it'll be more dependent on match ups. If the opponent plays a multi-guard lineup then Kyle would be the guy to post up those little guys.

The big question for Pop is whether he's going to play West over Boban.

At his present level, Simmons is unlikely to make the shortened playoff "rotation", but he has 3 months to improve. And improve, he has thus far. So we shall see.