Fathead Vs. Marco

[Kawhitstorm]

#88: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2

Vs.

#4: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5

[SAGirl]

#88: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2

Vs.

#4: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM/position/5

Probably one of the reasons we are so much better defensively. As much as we miss some of Marco's shooting, it had been noticed before that he gave back more on the other end. I don't think Pop would have gone forth with Marco as the sixth man even if we didn't have Manu this season.

I think Pop's was more interested in trying to keep Cojo (though I'm not a fan if his, his hustle and defense is a game changer. I thought he did a number on Patty and Tony in that Raptor's game), and they only withdrew Cojo's offer when it was clearly impossible to retain him.

The guys they got instead to try out for Marco's spot all play defense, and as hesitant and passive as Kyle was early in the season, if there was one thing Pop would not tolerate, it was the slightest defensive mistake. Simmons had defensive upside from the very beginning, due to his athleticism and energy, what he lacked was experience.

I think Pop's had enough of bad defense and as much as Manu's offensive game will be missed, to my eye Pop prioritized getting at least some of the defensive impact Manu had in that second unit bc you are no try going to get an exact replica of MAnu.

[cjw]

Imagine how much better Kawhi's DRPM would be if Marco were sopping up those SF minutes when he's on the bench given how RPM is impacted by how teammates perform relative to you, as well as team performance.

[Kawhitstorm]

Imagine how much better Kawhi's DRPM would be if Marco were sopping up those SF minutes when he's on the bench given how RPM is impacted by how teammates perform relative to you, as well as team performance.

It wouldn't matter: RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors. You are referring to plus/minus.

[Kawhitstorm]

Probably one of the reasons we are so much better defensively. As much as we miss some of Marco's shooting, it had been noticed before that he gave back more on the other end. I don't think Pop would have gone forth with Marco as the sixth man even if we didn't have Manu this season.


Although the sample size is small, Simmons/Fathead are shooting better than Marco from 3 this season :lol

[ElNono]

Not hating on Fathead, but if we had any realistic option to resign Marco, I would've taken him back 10/10 times...

[Raven]

is this the Raven appreciation thread?

[bklynspursfan]

Not hating on Fathead, but if we had any realistic option to resign Marco, I would've taken him back 10/10 times...

+1... Marco's teammates/team are far worse defensively so that factors into the #'s. Not to mention KA is only playing like 12mpg compared to Marco playing 25

[SAGirl]

Not hating on Fathead, but if we had any realistic option to resign Marco, I would've taken him back 10/10 times...
Maybe you, and not bc of Kyle (though you may think that's why I am saying it).

I thought Marco wasn't going to be in our plans no matter what. I thought Pops actually wanted Cojo more if he could only retain one, and as I said, I'm not a fan of Cojo per se.

Much like Tiago was gone bc you can't build around the team's future with such an injury prone player, Marco without a player of MAnu's caliber to be disruptive on defense and take the bench's biggest offensive threat wasn't worth it to PATFO to build around. Just my 2 cents.

[SAGirl]

is this the Raven appreciation thread?

:toast

[Raven]

+1... Marco's teammates/team are far worse defensively so that factors into the #'s. Not to mention KA is only playing like 12mpg compared to Marco playing 25

is that because rondo is #9 at his position casspi #7, cousins #5, james anderson #17, mclemore #46, gay #54? out of those with big minutes, Gay is less than a point negative and mclemore is a 1.20 negative. The only one close is Collison with more than 3 negative, and guess who he plays with the most? :lmao

[Kawhitstorm]

+1... Marco's teammates/team are far worse defensively so that factors into the #'s. Not to mention KA is only playing like 12mpg compared to Marco playing 25

Again, RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors. He is being exposed b/c Tim/Kawhi/Danny aren't there to bail him out.:lol

[ceperez]

Probably one of the reasons we are so much better defensively. As much as we miss some of Marco's shooting, it had been noticed before that he gave back more on the other end. I don't think Pop would have gone forth with Marco as the sixth man even if we didn't have Manu this season.

I think Pop's was more interested in trying to keep Cojo (though I'm not a fan if his, his hustle and defense is a game changer. I thought he did a number on Patty and Tony in that Raptor's game), and they only withdrew Cojo's offer when it was clearly impossible to retain him.

The guys they got instead to try out for Marco's spot all play defense, and as hesitant and passive as Kyle was early in the season, if there was one thing Pop would not tolerate, it was the slightest defensive mistake. Simmons had defensive upside from the very beginning, due to his athleticism and energy, what he lacked was experience.

I think Pop's had enough of bad defense and as much as Manu's offensive game will be missed, to my eye Pop prioritized getting at least some of the defensive impact Manu had in that second unit bc you are no try going to get an exact replica of MAnu.

The numbers do show that Kyle Anderson's defense is way up there. He's able to get steals, blocks and his length is disruptive. Much better than what people's eye-test are telling them.

Last game, he shooting looked pretty much improved in terms of accuracy. Used to be his shot would bounce on the ring before going in, now its just nothing but net.

[Raven]

Again, RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors. He is being exposed b/c Tim/Kawhi/Danny aren't there to bail him out.:lol

he's also #70 of 75 in 2014 too:lol he was #50 of 54 the year before too :lol:lol:lol (at the same time DG was #1 :lol)

[ElNono]

Marco was a huge fit for the kind of game the Spurs were playing back then... He's a player that moves extremely well off the ball, and that was a must on our motion offense. He's also a relative known commodity, not somebody that has yet to develop. Considering the Spurs are still in the win now mode with old Tim and Manu, he was more of a sure thing, IMO, despite any drawbacks.

But we couldn't afford him and there was no reason for him not to cash in on a couple of successful seasons with the Spurs.

[Raven]

Marco was a huge fit for the kind of game the Spurs were playing back then... He's a player that moves extremely well off the ball, and that was a must on our motion offense. He's also a relative known commodity, not somebody that has yet to develop. Considering the Spurs are still in the win now mode with old Tim and Manu, he was more of a sure thing, IMO, despite any drawbacks.

But we couldn't afford him and there was no reason for him not to cash in on a couple of successful seasons with the Spurs.
well, how did that work out ...

[SAGirl]

Although the sample size is small, Simmons/Fathead are shooting better than Marco from 3 this season :lol

They are not hopeless. Reluctant to shoot the 3 yes, but very dangerous doing other things. As long as they can hit it when open and keep improving on the shot, they are better in the long run. Not even next to our starters Marco had a defensive rating like a 22 yr old Kyle (who by the way has seen his share of funky lineups and garbage time and rarely benefits from playing next to Kawhi. His defense is what has kept him playing and why Pop has been so strict with him.)

[Hoops Czar]

Again, RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors. He is being exposed b/c Tim/Kawhi/Danny aren't there to bail him out.:lol

What are you talking about? He was exposed just as bad last year with the likes of Timmy, Kawhi and Danny. He's been a zero on defense for his entire career.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2015/page/2/sort/DRPM/position/2

I certainly do miss his instant offense and passing ability coming off the bench especially on nights where the Spurs offense can't get out of its own way. As for KA, I'm not sure his 30 seconds a game average in high leverage or meaningful situation is really enough to go on in regards to being 4th in DPM. Yeah, he's been great against 3rd stringers. Metta World Peace is 5th in the league and he's playing on a team that's ranked 29th in total defense.

[ElNono]

well, how did that work out ...

1 ring, and 1 first round exit... I would say pretty damn good

[Raven]

1 ring, and 1 first round exit... I would say pretty damn good
no. 1first round exit and almost another. 1 ring when he wasn't playing.

[ceperez]

Marco was a huge fit for the kind of game the Spurs were playing back then... He's a player that moves extremely well off the ball, and that was a must on our motion offense. He's also a relative known commodity, not somebody that has yet to develop. Considering the Spurs are still in the win now mode with old Tim and Manu, he was more of a sure thing, IMO, despite any drawbacks.

But we couldn't afford him and there was no reason for him not to cash in on a couple of successful seasons with the Spurs.

He didn't deliver the first year in the playoffs.

The second year he delivered in a crucial game that the Spurs lost. Unfortunate.

[ElNono]

no. 1first round exit and almost another. 1 ring when he wasn't playing.

But he did play. Including the Finals.

I know you never liked the guy, but he certainly wasn't a hindrance to win a ring. That's pretty damn good.

And for all the bitching, he was one of our better players against the Clips.

[ElNono]

He didn't deliver the first year in the playoffs.

The second year he delivered in a crucial game that the Spurs lost. Unfortunate.

He played well against Portland, and gave us some minutes and shots in the Finals.

The problem is thinking he was some sort of star. He's a decent offensive role player with well known limitations on defense.

Pop knew this and used him accordingly.

Whoever thinks Marco is more than that is simply mistaken.

[KimmyGib]

No offense (or defense?) to Marco, but I like the team better without him on it. Seemed like invariably his man would go off.

[ElNono]

The point though is that Marco was more of a known quantity. You know what he does well and what he doesn't do well.

Anderson is limited too right now, but he's still developing, which is both good and bad. Good because he can get better, bad because it's hard to play him in high stakes games when you don't know if he's able to raise to the occasion.

Which is why I think he will still have a minimal role this season. I think Pop is still watching him and Simms to grasp what he has there and how to use them. It doesn't mean Kyle is not good enough, just that he's not a known quantity just yet. His time will eventually come.

[100%duncan]

Idk, as good as he fits on paper, it seemed like he bricked every shot we needed him to hit last season.

[ceperez]

The point though is that Marco was more of a known quantity. You know what he does well and what he doesn't do well.

Anderson is limited too right now, but he's still developing, which is both good and bad. Good because he can get better, bad because it's hard to play him in high stakes games when you don't know if he's able to raise to the occasion.

Which is why I think he will still have a minimal role this season. I think Pop is still watching him and Simms to grasp what he has there and how to use them. It doesn't mean Kyle is not good enough, just that he's not a known quantity just yet. His time will eventually come.

Well that's something that Pop has to figure out if it is worth the risk. Simmons and Anderson have never played in a playoff game and we will never know if they can if they aren't put in the court. They have to be played otherwise the older guys are going to be exhausted playing and will run out of gas either in the game or in a series. NBA playoff series are beginning to look more like marathons than 100 meter dashes.

[Kawhitstorm]

he's also #70 of 75 in 2014 too:lol he was #50 of 54 the year before too :lol:lol:lol (at the same time DG was #1 :lol)


What are you talking about? He was exposed just as bad last year with the likes of Timmy, Kawhi and Danny. He's been a zero on defense for his entire career.


He was playable (at least NET zero) w/ the Spurs/Bulls(2013 playoffs) but a net NEGATIVE elsewhere as a rotation player b/c of Tim/Kawhi/Danny & Noah/Butler/Taj bailing him out:lol. The Spurs system was the PERFECT fit for him on BOTH ends of the floor but alas he ended up in an insane asylum.:lol

[ElNono]

Well that's something that Pop has to figure out if it is worth the risk. Simmons and Anderson have never played in a playoff game and we will never know if they can if they aren't put in the court. They have to be played otherwise the older guys are going to be exhausted playing and will run out of gas either in the game or in a series. NBA playoff series are beginning to look more like marathons than 100 meter dashes.

I don't disagree. I actually think the West being generally weaker this season will open up more opportunities for Kyle and Simms to show their stuff. It's just the Warriors don't wanna give us a break and I think as long as we're close to catching them we're still going to give our best shot out there.

[bic50]

Would rather have kyle tbh

[silverblackfan]

They are not hopeless. Reluctant to shoot the 3 yes, but very dangerous doing other things. As long as they can hit it when open and keep improving on the shot, they are better in the long run. Not even next to our starters Marco had a defensive rating like a 22 yr old Kyle (who by the way has seen his share of funky lineups and garbage time and rarely benefits from playing next to Kawhi. His defense is what has kept him playing and why Pop has been so strict with him.)

This. I think Pop in general is tired of players that don't defend. This team has limited minutes and Kyle has to earn then defensively. Weird as that sounds.

[Spurtacular]

I think Pop's was more interested in trying to keep Cojo

We knew we wouldn't be able to pay Marco. There was some faint hope that CoJo would be able to be signed at a bargain basement price for a year.

[ElNono]

The biggest issue for Kyle is that he's playing behind Kawhi, who is both young and extremely talented. Even playing as a stretch 4, Bobo has that position locked up. He's just in a tough situation minutes wise, but as we rest some of those guys or if we continue to manage to blow teams away, he'll get his chances.

[spursistan]

The point though is that Marco was more of a known quantity. You know what he does well and what he doesn't do well.

Anderson is limited too right now, but he's still developing, which is both good and bad. Good because he can get better, bad because it's hard to play him in high stakes games when you don't know if he's able to raise to the occasion.

Which is why I think he will still have a minimal role this season. I think Pop is still watching him and Simms to grasp what he has there and how to use them. It doesn't mean Kyle is not good enough, just that he's not a known quantity just yet. His time will eventually come.
do you think Butler will make his way back to the rotation come playoff time? the game is played/officiated differently that i still find Simmons/Kyle both too rookie-sh to survive the pressure cooker in their first rodeo....there will be less minutes available anyway with Kawhi/Manu likely seeing bump in theirs..i think Pop might get back to giving Butler his 5 minutes runs here and there...

[Uriel]

There is no doubt that Anderson has been an upgrade over Bellinelli defensively. But I don't think he's been the 4th best defensive SF in the league.

I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain his high defensive RPM has something to do with the fact that he plays for the best defensive team in the NBA.

[ceperez]

I don't disagree. I actually think the West being generally weaker this season will open up more opportunities for Kyle and Simms to show their stuff. It's just the Warriors don't wanna give us a break and I think as long as we're close to catching them we're still going to give our best shot out there.

The first step is to at least see these rookies and sophomore players play against more difficult opponents. We haven't seen that. I really disliked the fact that against Houston, Pop chose to shorter the roster. If the Rockets can play Clint Capella extended minutes then the Spurs should be able to play Anderson, Simmons and Boban extended minutes.

[ElNono]

do you think Butler will make his way back to the rotation come playoff time? the game is played/officiated differently that i still find Simmons/Kyle both too rookie-sh to survive the pressure cooker in their first rodeo....there will be less minutes available anyway with Kawhi/Manu likely seeing bump in theirs..i think Pop might get back to giving Butler his 5 minutes runs here and there...

Wouldn't surprise me Pop going with Bonner over Butler for a minimal role in the playoffs. The kind of basketball we're playing right now isn't the kind we were playing two seasons ago. We have a younger Kawhi and LMA with bigger roles, I suspect the rotation will be shorter than previous seasons when the playoffs come around.

[Kawhitstorm]

do you think Butler will make his way back to the rotation come playoff time? the game is played/officiated differently that i still find Simmons/Kyle both too rookie-sh to survive the pressure cooker in their first rodeo..

Fathead is probably going to get the 2nd year CoJo treatment in the playoffs where he will play spot minutes behind Kawhi/Danny/Manu. (CoJo played behind Tony/Manu/Neal) . Butler is basically T-Mac status, tbh.

[ElNono]

The first step is to at least see these rookies and sophomore players play against more difficult opponents. We haven't seen that. I really disliked the fact that against Houston, Pop chose to shorter the roster. If the Rockets can play Clint Capella extended minutes then the Spurs should be able to play Anderson, Simmons and Boban extended minutes.

The dynamic this season is just different. We have the starters with new personnel and roles needing to gel, and then the usual end of the bench guys showing what they have. The starters part is obviously much more important, because those are the guys that will have the biggest responsibility come playoff time, so it's imperative it works out. That's why Pop will likely prioritize that against solid teams over handing minutes to the new guys.

It's tough, but when you undergo such large role and personnel changes (it might not seem much for other NBA teams, but for the Spurs well known stability, it's pretty major), it's just something that has to happen.

Obviously if the team shows signs of gelling much better post ASG, then there will be more room for the new guys (or if an injury forces Pop's hand)

[Kawhitstorm]

Wouldn't surprise me Pop going with Bonner over Butler for a minimal role in the playoffs. The kind of basketball we're playing right now isn't the kind we were playing two seasons ago. We have a younger Kawhi and LMA with bigger roles, I suspect the rotation will be shorter than previous seasons when the playoffs come around.

Why in the hell would Butler/Bonner be playing meaningful minutes if LMA/Diaw/West are all available? I could see Bonner/Butler checking in for a final possession if they need a 3 but that's about it.

[look_at_g_shred]

Wow I'm shocked so many people are on the KA side tbh. It seemed like the majority of this board didn't like him. I like Marco, instant offense off the bench, but as someone already mentioned, his guy would always go off on the other end, so it was a wash. I've always been of fan of Kyle since the moment we drafted him. Having said that, I love the defense our team is putting forth, and you can credit that to the loss of Marco and more Kyle.

[steeledl]

Marco wasn't good at defense but here will come a time in the playoffs where we will miss his ability to shoot.

[Kawhitstorm]

There is no doubt that Anderson has been an upgrade over Bellinelli defensively. But I don't think he's been the 4th best defensive SF in the league.

I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain his high defensive RPM has something to do with the fact that he plays for the best defensive team in the NBA.

Of course he has teammates erasing his mistakes but his DRPM stands out even amongst his own teammates who play against backups.:toast

[ElNono]

Why in the hell would Butler/Bonner be playing meaningful minutes if LMA/Diaw/West are all available? I could see Bonner/Butler checking in for a final possession if they need a 3 but that's about it.

Spacing in case LMA is hurt? LMA is obviously a better option if available.

I was answering to the notion of Pop going to Butler in a potential playoff series. I think he would rather go with Bonner (a known commodity for Pop), like he did in 2014.

[Kawhitstorm]

Marco wasn't good at defense but here will come a time in the playoffs where we will miss his ability to shoot.

The issue is that Marco is unplayable against certain teams (OKC in the 2014 series) but Kyle can play against all 29 teams, he's just not going to win you a game.

[spursistan]

Fathead is probably going to get the 2nd year CoJo treatment in the playoffs where he will play spot minutes behind Kawhi/Danny/Manu. (CoJo played behind Tony/Manu/Neal) . Butler is basically T-Mac status, tbh.
but he has shown to have wayyy more in the tank early in the season..just could'nt hit the 3..

[steeledl]

The issue is that Marco is unplayable against certain teams (OKC in the 2014 series) but Kyle can play against all 29 teams, he's just not going to win you a game.


I really doubt big head is part of the rotation at all come playoff time so that is really going to be irrelevant. I'm just saying Marco was a nice player to use situationally because he could shoot well, spread the court, and move the ball.

[Kawhitstorm]

Spacing in case LMA is hurt? LMA is obviously a better option if available.

I was answering to the notion of Pop going to Butler in a potential playoff series. I think he would rather go with Bonner (a known commodity for Pop), like he did in 2014.

It probably depends on how Boban pans out in the long run. Pop barely played Bonner this past postseason when Tiago was dragging his leg & Baynes was getting destroyed by Blake. IMO, Tim/LMA/Diaw/West are going to be the ones playing regularly w/ Boban being the 5th big & Bonner/Butler only playing situational minutes.

Since only 12 active player (+ 1 inactive) are allowed, either Bonner or Butler might be inactive if Simmons establishes himself as a rotation player.

Best case scenario:

Tony/Patty
Danny/Manu/Simmons
Kawhi/Kyle
LMA/West
Tim/Diaw/Boban

Inactive: ? (Bonner or Butler)
Not on the playoff roster: Ray/?(Bonner or Butler)

Most likely both Bonner/Butler(inactive) on the playoff roster & Ray/Simmons not on the playoff roster.

[SAGirl]

The point though is that Marco was more of a known quantity. You know what he does well and what he doesn't do well.

Anderson is limited too right now, but he's still developing, which is both good and bad. Good because he can get better, bad because it's hard to play him in high stakes games when you don't know if he's able to raise to the occasion.

Which is why I think he will still have a minimal role this season. I think Pop is still watching him and Simms to grasp what he has there and how to use them. It doesn't mean Kyle is not good enough, just that he's not a known quantity just yet. His time will eventually come.

You have a point, in the known quantity that Marco was, and the truth is that we could not afford him. I also cannot help but notice how PATFO tried to retain CoJo, but couldn't, and how they prioritized getting guys with defensive upside to replace Marco instead of a no defense/pure shooter like J.Eddie or someone else (Jimmer anyone?).

Pop stated transition D was our bane against the Clippers. Patty/Manu/Marco was probably a very bad transition trio. Kyle getting out of offensive sets to try to set up transition D has gotten him benched at least twice to my eye, and I watch him closely since I like him. Obviously in his mind getting back on transition D was No. 1 priority. He didn't need to take it to such an extreme and take offense so lightly as to leave offensive sets while they are still ongoing, to set up on D, but both Kyle and Simmons take difficult defensive assignments when they play and set up transition D for the bench. Its possible their taking this task has even allowed Manu to have those legs he's had to play as well as he has, since when he played next to Marco, Manu had to do more on both ends.

In a declining Manu world (or post Manu world) a no defense gunner is less and less valuable. If anything, give Manu a chance to spot up for a 3 himself, and let others do more. This is the way it seems Pop is going. You are not fully going to take the ball out of Manu's hands, but you will let Patty handle the rock much more, and you will get wings in there next to him who will set up transition D, take the toughest perimeter threat, and be able to set Manu up for a shot on occasion too. All of that allows Manu to pick and choose his spots.

Meanwhile, these wings have a defensive mindset developing this season while they are still developing offensively, and they have defensive fundamentals built up, so that when you ask them to do more offensively they already have good defensive habits built up.

[Kawhitstorm]

I really doubt big head is part of the rotation at all come playoff time so that is really going to be irrelevant. I'm just saying Marco was a nice player to use situationally because he could shoot well, spread the court, and move the ball.

If he wets the bed for the rest of the season then probably not but otherwise I don't see why he won't be getting limited minutes like CoJo if he keeps showing improvement when there isn't anyone to fill the Marco/CoJo void. (Simmons?:lol)

[SnakeBoy]

The biggest issue for Kyle is that he's playing behind Kawhi, who is both young and extremely talented. Even playing as a stretch 4, Bobo has that position locked up. He's just in a tough situation minutes wise, but as we rest some of those guys or if we continue to manage to blow teams away, he'll get his chances.

It's the ideal situation for a guy like Kyle to develop in.

[SAGirl]

There is no doubt that Anderson has been an upgrade over Bellinelli defensively. But I don't think he's been the 4th best defensive SF in the league.

I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain his high defensive RPM has something to do with the fact that he plays for the best defensive team in the NBA.

Marco was not at any point as good as him defensively and Marco shared minutes with Kawhi, Kyle has very rarely done that. You have to get off the slow-mo bias, and really look at what he does, he uses his incredible wingspan and size to alter shots, he breaks up plays using his hands getting deflections and setting balls loose. He blocks shots, he gets back on transition, he goes around picks and screens better than Marco, who got caught in every screen.

He swiches on defense able to bother or prevent big guys from getting the ball if he's picked off. In general, much much better. He's carried his own weight TBH.

[ceperez]

do you think Butler will make his way back to the rotation come playoff time? the game is played/officiated differently that i still find Simmons/Kyle both too rookie-sh to survive the pressure cooker in their first rodeo....there will be less minutes available anyway with Kawhi/Manu likely seeing bump in theirs..i think Pop might get back to giving Butler his 5 minutes runs here and there...

Butler plays either the SF or the PF position, the same positions that KA can play. Early in the season Butler played ahead of KA but that doesn't seem the case anymore. Butler is behind everyone else including even McCallum.

Butler is pretty capable as a defender and a 3 point shooter. He's been very professional about his role considering next to zero playing time.

[ceperez]

Marco was not at any point as good as him defensively and Marco shared minutes with Kawhi, Kyle has very rarely done that. You have to get off the slow-mo bias, and really look at what he does, he uses his incredible wingspan and size to alter shots, he breaks up plays using his hands getting deflections and setting balls loose. He blocks shots, he gets back on transition, he goes around picks and screens better than Marco, who got caught in every screen.

He swiches on defense able to bother or prevent big guys from getting the ball if he's picked off. In general, much much better. He's carried his own weight TBH.

True, I don't think KA is on the court when Leonard is on the court. However, that would be an interesting combination considering how much length defensively that would bring.

In practice though, KA is matched up against KL. So that means that KA has to put up with some serious defense.

[littlecoyotecoin]

Marco was not at any point as good as him defensively and Marco shared minutes with Kawhi, Kyle has very rarely done that. You have to get off the slow-mo bias, and really look at what he does, he uses his incredible wingspan and size to alter shots, he breaks up plays using his hands getting deflections and setting balls loose. He blocks shots, he gets back on transition, he goes around picks and screens better than Marco, who got caught in every screen.

He swiches on defense able to bother or prevent big guys from getting the ball if he's picked off. In general, much much better. He's carried his own weight TBH.

And your last sentence is all that really matters. Many thought KA would be unplayable because he wouldn't be able to play any defense at all. It looks like he is surpassing expectations in that department. And, he's still very young. If we can make any projections, it looks like he may continue to be a good value at 30th pick, if not an outright steal, as some hope. What more can we ask for than that. Not every player is going to be a Kawhi, and even so, Kawhi was a 15 pick. KA is doing a good job, thus far, by my reckoning.

[SAGirl]

True, I don't think KA is on the court when Leonard is on the court. However, that would be an interesting combination considering how much length defensively that would bring.

In practice though, KA is matched up against KL. So that means that KA has to put up with some serious defense.

Which is why I think Pop has trusted him with the ball, even giving him some spot PG minutes (which surprised me, since they didn't have him practice that dleague or SL).

I think if you can deal with a competitive Kawhi in practice and not TO the ball, you will be fine against most guys, which is true, Kyle hasn't been turning the ball over due to ball pressure. I kind of think Kyle's length has helped Kawhi with his shot, if you can shoot over his length you will shoot well against most guys really.

In the long run, Kyle benefits the most from this competition, but I think his length at least is more of a competition in practice for Kawhi than scrimmaging against Danny.

[ElNono]

I'm nowhere near sold on KA's defense as other people here are, but it's mostly due to small sample against competitive opposition.

[Spurs_619]

My issue with KA is he doesn't seem to be elite or really even above average at anything. His defense has been a pleasant surprise though

[TrainOfThought5]

There is no doubt that Anderson has been an upgrade over Bellinelli defensively. But I don't think he's been the 4th best defensive SF in the league.

I could be wrong, but I'm almost certain his high defensive RPM has something to do with the fact that he plays for the best defensive team in the NBA.

I believe that KA contributes to the high def. Rating, not relies on it.

[TrainOfThought5]

I'm nowhere near sold on KA's defense as other people here are, but it's mostly due to small sample against competitive opposition.

As a backup playing against other backups (usually the worst wing) KA is easily a net positive on 8/10 nights. Which is 8 more nights than Bellinelli.

[bic50]

I believe that KA contributes to the high def. Rating, not relies on it.

[SpursIndonesia]

The biggest issue for Kyle is that he's playing behind Kawhi, who is both young and extremely talented. Even playing as a stretch 4, Bobo has that position locked up. He's just in a tough situation minutes wise, but as we rest some of those guys or if we continue to manage to blow teams away, he'll get his chances.

Any chance Kawhi slides to SG spot more considering his handle has improved so much & flat out the best shooter on the team right now ? Would love to see him partnering with Anderson on the perimeter more, especially when we plays the smaller, playmaking, & more mobile Diaw at the PF spot alongside TD or LMA, with Patty spotting in as another shooter in the line up.

[TheGreatYacht]

Ferrari showed up when it matters. Fathead, not so much.

[TheGreatYacht]

Would a fathead-led team beat Golden State in Oakland WITHOUT the big 3?

[ElNono]

As a backup playing against other backups (usually the worst wing) KA is easily a net positive on 8/10 nights. Which is 8 more nights than Bellinelli.

Just saying he played a lot of garbage minutes, and most of his non-garbage mins were against weak teams (Philadelphia), IIRC... It's not his fault and it doesn't mean anything either way, but the sample against more rugged competition is small right now.

[ElNono]

Any chance Kawhi slides to SG spot more considering his handle has improved so much & flat out the best shooter on the team right now ? Would love to see him partnering with Anderson on the perimeter more, especially when we plays the smaller, playmaking, & more mobile Diaw at the PF spot alongside TD or LMA, with Patty spotting in as another shooter in the line up.

Personally, I don't think Pop is too keen on that stuff. He's a fan of roles, 'units', etc. One scenario where that could play out is if Danny is in foul trouble. But then again, I can see him calling Simms in, who is more of a SG, than KA in such a situation...

[littlecoyotecoin]

Just saying he played a lot of garbage minutes, and most of his non-garbage mins were against weak teams (Philadelphia), IIRC... It's not his fault and it doesn't mean anything either way, but the sample against more rugged competition is small right now.

Which is also a very reasonable position.

[SnakeBoy]

Would a fathead-led team beat Golden State in Oakland WITHOUT the big 3?

Well that's just retarded

[SAGirl]

I'm nowhere near sold on KA's defense as other people here are, but it's mostly due to small sample against competitive opposition.


Just saying he played a lot of garbage minutes, and most of his non-garbage mins were against weak teams (Philadelphia), IIRC... It's not his fault and it doesn't mean anything either way, but the sample against more rugged competition is small right now.

You have a valid point in that, and so far I have only seen a short 8 minutes for either Kyle or Simmons against playoff teams in close contests. Kyle came through in games against the Grizz, Boston, Raptors, and Simmons against Clippers, Raptors, and Houston.

Pop being reluctant to play these guys for more gives us some insight into Pop's mind. It is key for everyone to be healthy, bc Pop has not been full of confidence with either guy in tight game situations.

[Spurs 4 The Win]

no. 1first round exit and almost another. 1 ring when he wasn't playing.

Marco says hi


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5dz5DCjrUM

[ceperez]

You have a valid point in that, and so far I have only seen a short 8 minutes for either Kyle or Simmons against playoff teams in close contests. Kyle came through in games against the Grizz, Boston, Raptors, and Simmons against Clippers, Raptors, and Houston.

Pop being reluctant to play these guys for more gives us some insight into Pop's mind. It is key for everyone to be healthy, bc Pop has not been full of confidence with either guy in tight game situations.

The mindset of Pop is that his players must execute defensively first as well as offensively. Proper execution in the Spurs is at a level beyond any other kind of team. In offense have to move without the ball correctly, pass correctly and shoot at the right time and accurately. The defense also demands a level of perfection like not fouling, being disruptive, forcing opponents to uncomfortable spots etc. It is very difficult to play as a Spur because every action on the court is under a microscope.

Further, all this stuff doesn't come automatically, but requires experience to become second nature.

Which of course highlights the problem of bringing in veterans who have never had this kind of a system.

[dabom]

Marco was trash except 1 series. I'm glad he is out.

[dabom]

Losing him hasn't hurt our bench. Simmons and Kyle can soak up those 15 mins per game. Our net point differential is also off the charts.

[ceperez]

Belinelli's shooting is obviously much better than Anderson. However Anderson drop off relative isn't that bad since he still keeps the ball moving, passes great and can finish with coverage.

Anderson can seal the argument by improving at the 3. I think it is possible, his shooting in the past 5 games is a ridiculous .75. You can't ask for more! Imagine if he took as many shots as Shaun Livingston?

[Raven]

But he did play. Including the Finals.

I know you never liked the guy, but he certainly wasn't a hindrance to win a ring. That's pretty damn good.

And for all the bitching, he was one of our better players against the Clips.

i really dont see how you can say that when both stats and the final result say the exact opposite

[ElNono]

i really dont see how you can say that when both stats and the final result say the exact opposite

I can say it because it happened. He played a limited role, he made shots, including during the Finals and we did win the ring. Sure he also got pulled out when he was being exploited on defense, but that's what good coaching and depth is all about.

This idea that he had nothing to do with the ring is stupid. He's another reason we had a deep team during the regular season and we could rest Manu for the playoffs that year, which ended up being huge.

You can hate on him all you want, but nobody is taking that LOBT away from him.

[dabom]

That finals 3? Lol. I remember he checking in and playing shitty defense and losing a good part of the lead and then hitting a 3. Did more worse than any good. And we can go watch it right now for people who forget what exactly happened that finals.

[dabom]

And no one is taking that ship. Just glad we moved away from him even if he took minutes from the seasonal rotation.

[dabom]

It obviously isn't hurting the rotation with simmons and KA. Easily replaceable.

[ElNono]

The Spus couldn't pay him, the point of moving on from him or not is moot. It's the same thing with Neal or even Cojo...

It's not like Ayres that was a genuine scrub and out of the league now.

[dabom]

The Spus couldn't pay him, the point of moving on from him or not is moot. It's the same thing with Neal or even Cojo...

It's not like Ayres that was a genuine scrub and out of the league now.

The Spurs pay the players they want top keep. Marco wasn't one of them and because of that he isn't a Spur. And now he hurts the kings bench. Worst shooting guard by RPM this year. :lmao

[Raven]

I can say it because it happened. He played a limited role, he made shots, including during the Finals and we did win the ring. Sure he also got pulled out when he was being exploited on defense, but that's what good coaching and depth is all about.

This idea that he had nothing to do with the ring is stupid. He's another reason we had a deep team during the regular season and we could rest Manu for the playoffs that year, which ended up being huge.

You can hate on him all you want, but nobody is taking that LOBT away from him.

look, he played against dallas and we had to take him out of the rotation to win, afterwards he only played in garbage time and even managed to disrupt the team in those. I don't need to hate on him, facts do that. He has a ring, but so would have tmac if we had pulled it off that year..

[ElNono]

look, he played against dallas and we had to take him out of the rotation to win, afterwards he only played in garbage time and even managed to disrupt the team in those. I don't need to hate on him, facts do that. He has a ring, but so would have tmac if we had pulled it off that year..

He averaged almost 20mpg in the Portland series. A little less against OKC, IIRC. Might've been blowouts, but he didn't give back any 20 pt lead.

TMac didn't ring nor he played any significant minutes.

Marco rangPERIOD.

[Kawhitstorm]

That finals 3? Lol. I remember he checking in and playing shitty defense and losing a good part of the lead and then hitting a 3. Did more worse than any good. And we can go watch it right now for people who forget what exactly happened that finals.

He basically bailed himself out, unlike Ray Allen bailing out LeBron:lol

[dabom]

He basically bailed himself out, unlike Ray Allen bailing out LeBron:lol

Except he probably needed to hit 2 more 3s. :lol

[TD 21]

It's all about fit. Their biggest weakness is a lack of volume three-point shooting (especially against .500 or better teams, on the road). For a team that already was one of the worst in getting to the line and in transition, volume three-point shooting was a crucial element to their explosive offense.

To illustrate the stark contrast, Belinelli has hit 48 so far this season; Anderson, Simmons and Butler have hit 15 combined. Sure, the former has shot it poorly, at .327%, but he's a career .387% shooter and he'd likely be shooting something similar on this team instead of that train wreck of one.

Even if he weren't, he has a strong enough reputation as a shooter spread over 7 seasons, that opposing coaches/defenses are going to base the way they play him more on that, than 2 months and change of him struggling.

Anderson/Simmons garner no such respect. If one makes one every 3-4 games, nobody cares. Neither is a threat to catch fire and bust a game open every once in a while.

[dabom]

It's all about fit. Their biggest weakness is a lack of volume three-point shooting (especially against .500 or better teams, on the road). For a team that already was one of the worst in getting to the line and in transition, volume three-point shooting was a crucial element to their explosive offense.

To illustrate the stark contrast, Belinelli has hit 48 so far this season; Anderson, Simmons and Butler have hit 15 combined. Sure, the former has shot it poorly, at .327%, but he's a career .387% shooter and he'd likely be shooting something similar on this team instead of that train wreck of one.

Even if he weren't, he has a strong enough reputation as a shooter spread over 7 seasons, that opposing coaches/defenses are going to base the way they play him more on that, than 2 months and change of him struggling.

Anderson/Simmons garner no such respect. If one makes one every 3-4 games, nobody cares. Neither is a threat to catch fire and bust a game open every once in a while.

So he is garbage at his own strength on top of his shit defense. Dam....

[SAGirl]

It's all about fit. Their biggest weakness is a lack of volume three-point shooting (especially against .500 or better teams, on the road). For a team that already was one of the worst in getting to the line and in transition, volume three-point shooting was a crucial element to their explosive offense.

No more. Pop has definitely gone a different way. They could have picked up a lesser Marco, a no defense shooter, in J.Eddie and J.Fredette and chose to go a different way.

Simmons has been impactful offensively bc he is a strong finisher and aggressive looking for transition scoring opportunities, and he gets to the line bc he attacks the basket with some regularity. He does give other things. He's not a shooter, but he provides some scoring.

Anderson is still basically a developing player and although he can score, he's not going to be featured. In Pop's system, ideally he's a guy you run some things through, like you do with Diaw, but he's not going to be a featured player when he's so young, inexperienced and there are better options. I say that bc his game, the game the Spurs asked him to develop, includes a lot of post ups, and mid range shots (you just have to watch him in SL, to see what they asked him to work on). Offensively, he's deadly from the midrange... and I do mean deadly, has a very accurate stepback fadeaway jumper and a jump hook with a high release he can get over guys. Spotting him up is not the best use for his scoring abilities... but he's young and we don't need him to be a featured scorer, so he's currently not being fully utilized to his potential. You may say he doesn't fit the bench system, but in reality, he has potential to be a centerpiece of that system in the future. Just not right now, with all the vets still in tow and the team aiming for a championship. Pop's just letting him develop and having him focus on defense. It's not about this season, but long term.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if ultimately your rotation wing ends up being Simmons bc he fits best with the current bench and provides an offensive skill (transition scorer/drawing fouls) that the team needs, but for the future you still want to develop Anderson, which is what it seems to me Pop is doing.

[ceperez]

It's all about fit. Their biggest weakness is a lack of volume three-point shooting (especially against .500 or better teams, on the road). For a team that already was one of the worst in getting to the line and in transition, volume three-point shooting was a crucial element to their explosive offense.

To illustrate the stark contrast, Belinelli has hit 48 so far this season; Anderson, Simmons and Butler have hit 15 combined. Sure, the former has shot it poorly, at .327%, but he's a career .387% shooter and he'd likely be shooting something similar on this team instead of that train wreck of one.

Even if he weren't, he has a strong enough reputation as a shooter spread over 7 seasons, that opposing coaches/defenses are going to base the way they play him more on that, than 2 months and change of him struggling.

Anderson/Simmons garner no such respect. If one makes one every 3-4 games, nobody cares. Neither is a threat to catch fire and bust a game open every once in a while.

I share your concern about the lack of 3 point shooting this season.

Spurs did have an option to bring in Either or pay a little for Neal, but they didn't do so.

The only bright side is that both Parker and Leonard are shooting the 3 at a high percentage. I had thought that either LMA or West would attempt to extend their range but so far I have not seen that happening.

Hoping that more 3 point shooting is in the plans.

[TD 21]

So he is garbage at his own strength on top of his shit defense. Dam....

Yeah, because barely more than 2 months, on a train wreck of a team, supersedes 7 years of evidence before that.



No more. Pop has definitely gone a different way. They could have picked up a lesser Marco, a no defense shooter, in J.Eddie and J.Fredette and chose to go a different way.

Simmons has been impactful offensively bc he is a strong finisher and aggressive looking for transition scoring opportunities, and he gets to the line bc he attacks the basket with some regularity. He does give other things. He's not a shooter, but he provides some scoring.

Anderson is still basically a developing player and although he can score, he's not going to be featured. In Pop's system, ideally he's a guy you run some things through, like you do with Diaw, but he's not going to be a featured player when he's so young, inexperienced and there are better options. I say that bc his game, the game the Spurs asked him to develop, includes a lot of post ups, and mid range shots (you just have to watch him in SL, to see what they asked him to work on). Offensively, he's deadly from the midrange... and I do mean deadly, has a very accurate stepback fadeaway jumper and a jump hook with a high release he can get over guys. Spotting him up is not the best use for his scoring abilities... but he's young and we don't need him to be a featured scorer, so he's currently not being fully utilized to his potential. You may say he doesn't fit the bench system, but in reality, he has potential to be a centerpiece of that system in the future. Just not right now, with all the vets still in tow and the team aiming for a championship. Pop's just letting him develop and having him focus on defense. It's not about this season, but long term.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if ultimately your rotation wing ends up being Simmons bc he fits best with the current bench and provides an offensive skill (transition scorer/drawing fouls) that the team needs, but for the future you still want to develop Anderson, which is what it seems to me Pop is doing.

I don't buy that they've changed priorities, they probably just couldn't find a Belinelli replacement they liked enough and probably didn't want a third young wing.

The number one priority is winning another championship. Developing prospects, particularly second and third tier ones, is both secondary and with the way this team is run, inevitable (look no further than Marjanovic), even if they're not in the rotation.

If they don't make a move and avoid a meaningful injury, yet fail to win the championship, I guarantee it'll be because they couldn't make enough threes, specifically on the road, against the Thunder or Warriors.



I share your concern about the lack of 3 point shooting this season.

Spurs did have an option to bring in Either or pay a little for Neal, but they didn't do so.

The only bright side is that both Parker and Leonard are shooting the 3 at a high percentage. I had thought that either LMA or West would attempt to extend their range but so far I have not seen that happening.

Hoping that more 3 point shooting is in the plans.

They couldn't afford Neal. After the heavy lifting was complete, all they could offer was the veteran's minimum.

Parker is not a volume three-point shooter nor is he enough of a threat for defenses to concern themselves. Aldridge essentially abandoning the shot is puzzling.

The fourth wing situation could be in flux until the buyout period. I suspect they're hopeful of finding a marked upgrade on Butler, without having to sacrifice a significant asset. They can't honestly be comfortable with any of the three current options playing in the playoffs and being foul trouble or an injury away from significant minutes.

[dabom]

Yeah, because barely more than 2 months, on a train wreck of a team, supersedes 7 years of evidence before that.




I don't buy that they've changed priorities, they probably just couldn't find a Belinelli replacement they liked enough and probably didn't want a third young wing.

The number one priority is winning another championship. Developing prospects, particularly second and third tier ones, is both secondary and with the way this team is run, inevitable (look no further than Marjanovic), even if they're not in the rotation.

If they don't make a move and avoid a meaningful injury, yet fail to win the championship, I guarantee it'll be because they couldn't make enough threes, specifically on the road, against the Thunder or Warriors.




They couldn't afford Neal. After the heavy lifting was complete, all they could offer was the veteran's minimum.

Parker is not a volume three-point shooter nor is he enough of a threat for defenses to concern themselves. Aldridge essentially abandoning the shot is puzzling.

The fourth wing situation could be in flux until the buyout period. I suspect they're hopeful of finding a marked upgrade on Butler, without having to sacrifice a significant asset. They can't honestly be comfortable with any of the three current options playing in the playoffs and being foul trouble or an injury away from significant minutes.

7 years of evidence said he was a shit defender. :lmao

Now his shot is broke. :lmao

[SAGirl]

I share your concern about the lack of 3 point shooting this season.

Spurs did have an option to bring in Either or pay a little for Neal, but they didn't do so.

The only bright side is that both Parker and Leonard are shooting the 3 at a high percentage. I had thought that either LMA or West would attempt to extend their range but so far I have not seen that happening.

Hoping that more 3 point shooting is in the plans.
I wonder if that is the reason why we have seen so much of Bonner garbage time.

I thought your designated shooter was going to be Butler but two things: (1) he's not shooting the 3 at a high rate, although limited play time opportunities and limited attempts; (2) Bonner dressing over Butler.

[TD 21]

7 years of evidence said he was a shit defender. :lmao

Now his shot is broke. :lmao

Yeah and a knockdown shooter, which was clearly what I was referring to. Learn to read, genius.

[dabom]

Yeah and a knockdown shooter, which was clearly what I was referring to. Learn to read, genius.

Thing is, his defense doesn't make up for his spot shooting. Never has been. Spurs thought so too. :lmao

[SAGirl]

The fourth wing situation could be in flux until the buyout period. I suspect they're hopeful of finding a marked upgrade on Butler, without having to sacrifice a significant asset. They can't honestly be comfortable with any of the three current options playing in the playoffs and being foul trouble or an injury away from significant minutes.
What you say makes sense in theory, but that is it theory.
We are winning in historic fashion, with a historic point differential, and had the best December in franchise history.
In theory we should not be curbstomping teams according to you, in reality we have made a lot of teams look like garbage.

I do wish we had an extra 3 pt shooter in the Steve Kerr mold, doesn't need to play regularly but he's ready to shoot a clutch 3 if you need him, but we already have Mills/Manu/Danny/Kawhi (at a superlative rate). These four are supplemented by occassional 3s by low volume shooters who have a good enough % in Diaw and Tony, and then the other wings (Anderson and Simmons) who will occasionally shoot a 3.

The truth is we are winning on defense quite honestly. The bulk of the scoring in this team is on the stars (Kawhi/LMA/Tony) and there is less reliance on the shooters, like there was previously.

[dabom]

What you say makes sense in theory, but that is it theory.
We are winning in historic fashion, with a historic point differential, and had the best December in franchise history.
In theory we should not be curbstomping teams according to you, in reality we have made a lot of teams look like garbage.

I do wish we had an extra 3 pt shooter in the Steve Kerr mold, doesn't need to play regularly but he's ready to shoot a clutch 3 if you need him, but we already have Mills/Manu/Danny/Kawhi (at a superlative rate). These four are supplemented by occassional 3s by low volume shooters who have a good enough % in Diaw and Tony, and then the other wings (Anderson and Simmons) who will occasionally shoot a 3.

The truth is we are winning on defense quite honestly. The bulk of the scoring in this team is on the stars (Kawhi/LMA/Tony) and there is less reliance on the shooters, like there was previously.


:wow




























:worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy::worthy::w orthy::worthy:

[ceperez]

What you say makes sense in theory, but that is it theory.
We are winning in historic fashion, with a historic point differential, and had the best December in franchise history.
In theory we should not be curbstomping teams according to you, in reality we have made a lot of teams look like garbage.

I do wish we had an extra 3 pt shooter in the Steve Kerr mold, doesn't need to play regularly but he's ready to shoot a clutch 3 if you need him, but we already have Mills/Manu/Danny/Kawhi (at a superlative rate). These four are supplemented by occassional 3s by low volume shooters who have a good enough % in Diaw and Tony, and then the other wings (Anderson and Simmons) who will occasionally shoot a 3.

The truth is we are winning on defense quite honestly. The bulk of the scoring in this team is on the stars (Kawhi/LMA/Tony) and there is less reliance on the shooters, like there was previously.

You forgot to include Boban! ;-)

[ElNono]

Thing is, his defense doesn't make up for his spot shooting. Never has been. Spurs thought so too. :lmao

Man i've been running the same argument with Bonner for years, and the dude just manages to stick around :lol

[dabom]

Man i've been running the same argument with Bonner for years, and the dude just manages to stick around :lol

He sold his soul to stay on the Spurs bench forever. Something about Spurs biggest fan or something. :lol

[Kawhitstorm]

I thought your designated shooter was going to be Butler but two things: (1) he's not shooting the 3 at a high rate, although limited play time opportunities and limited attempts; (2) Bonner dressing over Butler.

I think Butler was signed to mentor Fathead/Simmons & play emergency minutes in the regular season ala Juwan Howard (& now Haslem) rather than actually playing meaningful minutes. Bonner is on the roster since his corporate knowledge was needed (practice/situational plays) b/c of the new comers on the frontline

[Raven]

It's all about fit. Their biggest weakness is a lack of volume three-point shooting (especially against .500 or better teams, on the road). For a team that already was one of the worst in getting to the line and in transition, volume three-point shooting was a crucial element to their explosive offense.

To illustrate the stark contrast, Belinelli has hit 48 so far this season; Anderson, Simmons and Butler have hit 15 combined. Sure, the former has shot it poorly, at .327%, but he's a career .387% shooter and he'd likely be shooting something similar on this team instead of that train wreck of one.

Even if he weren't, he has a strong enough reputation as a shooter spread over 7 seasons, that opposing coaches/defenses are going to base the way they play him more on that, than 2 months and change of him struggling.

Anderson/Simmons garner no such respect. If one makes one every 3-4 games, nobody cares. Neither is a threat to catch fire and bust a game open every once in a while.

except his strong 3 point percentage at the start came strictly from teams not respecting him at all :lol

[Raven]

Yeah and a knockdown shooter, which was clearly what I was referring to. Learn to read, genius.

knockdown shooter :lmao

[ceperez]

I think Butler was signed to mentor Fathead/Simmons & play emergency minutes in the regular season ala Juwan Howard (& now Haslem) rather than actually playing meaningful minutes. Bonner is on the roster since his corporate knowledge was needed (practice/situational plays) b/c of the new comers on the frontline

I was pretty impressed with Butler's early performance. However, PATFO have their reasons for why he's in street clothes. My guess is that, why develop an old guy when you can develop players that you should develop.

[TD 21]

Thing is, his defense doesn't make up for his spot shooting. Never has been. Spurs thought so too. :lmao

Considering the fact that he was the fourth wing and received the bi-annual exception, yeah, it did.

Them losing him, was all about not having the money to make even a competitive offer, after the heavy lifting was completed.



What you say makes sense in theory, but that is it theory.
We are winning in historic fashion, with a historic point differential, and had the best December in franchise history.
In theory we should not be curbstomping teams according to you, in reality we have made a lot of teams look like garbage.

I do wish we had an extra 3 pt shooter in the Steve Kerr mold, doesn't need to play regularly but he's ready to shoot a clutch 3 if you need him, but we already have Mills/Manu/Danny/Kawhi (at a superlative rate). These four are supplemented by occassional 3s by low volume shooters who have a good enough % in Diaw and Tony, and then the other wings (Anderson and Simmons) who will occasionally shoot a 3.

The truth is we are winning on defense quite honestly. The bulk of the scoring in this team is on the stars (Kawhi/LMA/Tony) and there is less reliance on the shooters, like there was previously.

In reality, this is the regular season and they've played the weakest schedule in the league and been one of the healthiest teams in the league, to date.

Besides, we've seen this team rip off torrid regular season stretches/in general before, only to have a glaring issue come back to bite them in the end. Like in '12, when the fringe top 10 defense caught up to them in the WCF.

They more than likely need volume three-point shooting to win the championship, for reasons I've explained. The whole "they look like the old Spurs" talk is partially true, but this is a different era. They're not beating the Thunder and particularly the Warriors, on the road, in the playoffs, scoring in the 80's. That didn't work in '04 and it's damn sure not working in '16.


except his strong 3 point percentage at the start came strictly from teams not respecting him at all :lol

Belinelli? Teams always respected him, the '14 Spurs were just extremely difficult to defend.

[SAGirl]

I was pretty impressed with Butler's early performance. However, PATFO have their reasons for why he's in street clothes. My guess is that, why develop an old guy when you can develop players that you should develop.


I think Butler was signed to mentor Fathead/Simmons & play emergency minutes in the regular season ala Juwan Howard (& now Haslem) rather than actually playing meaningful minutes. Bonner is on the roster since his corporate knowledge was needed (practice/situational plays) b/c of the new comers on the frontline

Yea, Butler can still play. He played well at the beginning of the season, and every time Pop dusts him off and lets him get a work out with the young guys, he plays well. I remember reading an interview his agent gave mentioning that precisely Butler was signed as a camp tryout because of his 3 pt shooting ability, but also to mentor the young wings. (And they wouldn't say so, but possibly as an insurance in case Simmons fizzed out and Anderson was less ready than he's turned out.)
We just haven't needed him per se.

[dabom]

Considering the fact that he was the fourth wing and received the bi-annual exception, yeah, it did.

Them losing him, was all about not having the money to make even a competitive offer, after the heavy lifting was completed.




In reality, this is the regular season and they've played the weakest schedule in the league and been one of the healthiest teams in the league, to date.

Besides, we've seen this team rip off torrid regular season stretches/in general before, only to have a glaring issue come back to bite them in the end. Like in '12, when the fringe top 10 defense caught up to them in the WCF.

They more than likely need volume three-point shooting to win the championship, for reasons I've explained. The whole "they look like the old Spurs" talk is partially true, but this is a different era. They're not beating the Thunder and particularly the Warriors, on the road, in the playoffs, scoring in the 80's. That didn't work in '04 and it's damn sure not working in '16.



Belinelli? Teams always respected him, the '14 Spurs were just extremely difficult to defend.

Spurs keep the players they want. The whole money thing was just what you ate up. Sorry. He's not a Spurs and the Spurs become historically great defensively. Not that both those things are a big part but it is a small part though.

[TD 21]

Spurs keep the players they want. The whole money thing was just what you ate up. Sorry. He's not a Spurs and the Spurs become historically great defensively. Not that both those things are a big part but it is a small part though.

I thought you were just trolling, like usual, but it's clear you just don't get it.

Obviously, they were always going to prioritize their top eight (save for the Aldridge for Splitter upgrade) over their ninth man, but that's not the same as them not wanting him.

[dabom]

I thought you were just trolling, like usual, but it's clear you just don't get it.

Obviously, they were always going to prioritize their top eight (save for the Aldridge for Splitter upgrade) over their ninth man, but that's not the same as them not wanting him.

Letting go of someone is saying they don't value what you bring to the table for your cost. Cost/benefit wasn't there. Hence let go.

[SAGirl]

But, they have shooters, you are acting like they don't.
If the rest of your 9 man rotation is not going to get it done, you are not going to expect your 4th wing to save you.
At this point, Kawhi has ascended so stratospherically high that if you need a 3 pt shot, he should be the one taking it.

[bklynspursfan]

Again, RPM takes into account teammates, opponents and additional factors. He is being exposed b/c Tim/Kawhi/Danny aren't there to bail him out.:lol

Regardless at this point, I'd take Marco over KA. Marco won us several games when we're decimated with injruries. KA doesn't have that ability yet and his confidence isn't there yet. Too unsure of himself at times, bad decisions with the ball, etc... he's too inconsistent to choose over someone like Marco

[SAGirl]

Regardless at this point, I'd take Marco over KA. Marco won us several games when we're decimated with injruries. KA doesn't have that ability yet and his confidence isn't there yet. Too unsure of himself at times, bad decisions with the ball, etc... he's too inconsistent to choose over someone like Marco
You might be right as it is right now. Current state of affairs, KA is not a part of the regular rotation, which Marco was a big part of (even if you had to bench him playoff games or what not, he was a rotation player). ElNono was right in that we could not afford him.

I had a point that instead of going for another guy somewhat like him, a shooter with no D, the Spurs chose to go after guys who have defensive upside. They are not ready to contribute much at this point but we'll see.

It is possible a trade could still be worked out to get a shooter if it is needed. Since we have such a winning record and are still blowing teams out, it would not seem that it is such a huge need.

[ElNono]

I don't know exactly what's the cap situation right now, but I'm not sure the Spurs really have much wiggle room for a trade... Kyle, Simmons, Butler, Bonner, McCollum, Boban are all on cheap, cheap contracts IIRC...

I don't think the Spurs want to part ways with players like Mills or Diaw that have better value...

[sasaint]

Yea, Butler can still play. He played well at the beginning of the season, and every time Pop dusts him off and lets him get a work out with the young guys, he plays well. I remember reading an interview his agent gave mentioning that precisely Butler was signed as a camp tryout because of his 3 pt shooting ability, but also to mentor the young wings. (And they wouldn't say so, but possibly as an insurance in case Simmons fizzed out and Anderson was less ready than he's turned out.)
We just haven't needed him per se.

We are enjoying a unique, blessed stretch. We are winning AND developing young talent. The best of both worlds.

Butler was brought in as an insurance policy. Insurance is always best when you have no need to resort to it.

[sasaint]

I don't know exactly what's the cap situation right now, but I'm not sure the Spurs really have much wiggle room for a trade... Kyle, Simmons, Butler, Bonner, McCollum, Boban are all on cheap, cheap contracts IIRC...

I don't think the Spurs want to part ways with players like Mills or Diaw that have better value...

I believe most of our roster is untouchable for one reason or another. I cannot see us trading Timmy, Tony, Manu, Kawhi, LMA, Boris, DWest, Patty, Boban, Kyle or Simmons, or possibly Bonner. That leaves McCallum and Butler. No trade value there, really, unless it is for a player from a tanker. We are going to go with the guys we got, unless somebody we want is bought out.

[SAGirl]

I don't know exactly what's the cap situation right now, but I'm not sure the Spurs really have much wiggle room for a trade... Kyle, Simmons, Butler, Bonner, McCollum, Boban are all on cheap, cheap contracts IIRC...

I don't think the Spurs want to part ways with players like Mills or Diaw that have better value...


I believe most of our roster is untouchable for one reason or another. I cannot see us trading Timmy, Tony, Manu, Kawhi, LMA, Boris, DWest, Patty, Boban, Kyle or Simmons, or possibly Bonner. That leaves McCallum and Butler. No trade value there, really, unless it is for a player from a tanker. We are going to go with the guys we got, unless somebody we want is bought out.

Yea I don't see a trade happening either. The guys you could spare are Ray/Butler/Bonner. They rarely play and are insurance of some kind or another. If we had a PG injury we'd need Ray, so we are lucky we haven't needed him, but that is not the same as saying we could spare him.

Bonner/Butler are really the ones you can spare and they don't have much trade value. They are good enough for their roles. We are not going to get significantly better in a trade for them.

Probably the most interesting guy we could trade would be Anderson bc he's younger and still on a rookie deal, but Pop is not playing him much so I don't think he has as much trade value for other teams and he's really an acquired taste with a kind of niche market and won't pass the eye test for any GM. And I think Pop wants still to see him develop and see what he has in him. I could see him traded next season though, while he's still in his 3rd year, particularly if he starts to play really well and getting minutes for him becomes a problem bc he's playing behind Kawhi. At that point, if another team likes him, we could get someone to reinforce our backcourt. That is still way ahead in the future, doesn't help us this season, and depends on him getting better, which he will need minutes for.

[sasaint]

Yea I don't see a trade happening either. The guys you could spare are Ray/Butler/Bonner. They rarely play and are insurance of some kind or another. If we had a PG injury we'd need Ray, so we are lucky we haven't needed him, but that is not the same as saying we could spare him.

Bonner/Butler are really the ones you can spare and they don't have much trade value. They are good enough for their roles. We are not going to get significantly better in a trade for them.

Probably the most interesting guy we could trade would be Anderson bc he's younger and still on a rookie deal, but Pop is not playing him much so I don't think he has as much trade value for other teams and he's really an acquired taste with a kind of niche market and won't pass the eye test for any GM. And I think Pop wants still to see him develop and see what he has in him. I could see him traded next season though, while he's still in his 3rd year, particularly if he starts to play really well and getting minutes for him becomes a problem bc he's playing behind Kawhi. At that point, if another team likes him, we could get someone to reinforce our backcourt. That is still way ahead in the future, doesn't help us this season, and depends on him getting better, which he will need minutes for.

I have not heard Pop comment on Kyle in a long time, but I do not believe he is ready to move on from him yet. I think he still sees too much "Spurs" potential. Who knows, maybe Kyle's presence is what has lit a fire under Boris this season. :lol

Your argument about needing to show more to build his trade value is an argument that kind of cuts both ways. If he improves so much we could get real value for him, wouldn't he be good enough to be a significant contributor for us?

Trade Bonner? Seriously? Trade BONNER?! Not happening even if we could get value in return. No, we are going to play this hand.

[SAGirl]

I have not heard Pop comment on Kyle in a long time, but I do not believe he is ready to move on from him yet. I think he still sees too much "Spurs" potential. Who knows, maybe Kyle's presence is what has lit a fire under Boris this season. :lol

Your argument about needing to show more to build his trade value is an argument that kind of cuts both ways. If he improves so much we could get real value for him, wouldn't he be good enough to be a significant contributor for us?

Trade Bonner? Seriously? Trade BONNER?! Not happening even if we could get value in return. No, we are going to play this hand.

Yea we don't know where Kyle stands with Pop per se, but he's played well. I can't think he's in the doghouse, much more than just probably needing to gain confidence in his game and in his shots out there. He's just in general been more aggressive lately than he was initially and should continue to get better. A year from now, who knows?

[kaji157]

Yea we don't know where Kyle stands with Pop per se, but he's played well. I can't think he's in the doghouse, much more than just probably needing to gain confidence in his game and in his shots out there. He's just in general been more aggressive lately than he was initially and should continue to get better. A year from now, who knows?

As of now Kyle Anderson is the only Spurs player that can do some of the things Ginobili can do.

I think he has a place here, and his job right now is to learn, so he is learning.

Pop doesnt have a problem with him, but for the very limited role he will have this year, he will play Simmons now to see if he can play him, over Anderson who Pop already knows what to expect.

I think we have to wait to see if Anderson plays over Simmons, because as of now Simmons needs the minutes more than Anderson.

PS: Its the same situation between Bonner and Boban, while i agree Boban is a better player, you could make the case as if who of him and bonner wil have the 13th spot, well as of now it looks like boban gets more PT than the red mamba, but it coul be argued that this is because Boban needs the playing time while Boner already knoes the plays and system.

[Obstructed_View]

I think Butler was signed to mentor Fathead/Simmons & play emergency minutes in the regular season ala Juwan Howard (& now Haslem) rather than actually playing meaningful minutes. Bonner is on the roster since his corporate knowledge was needed (practice/situational plays) b/c of the new comers on the frontline

He wasn't even there to mentor, he was just a stopgap until Aldridge came around enough to allow them to give minutes to Simmons and BT. Pop needed corporate knowledge early on, and the surprisingly stout defense probably sped the process along faster than anyone anticipated.

[Obstructed_View]

Yea we don't know where Kyle stands with Pop per se, but he's played well. I can't think he's in the doghouse, much more than just probably needing to gain confidence in his game and in his shots out there. He's just in general been more aggressive lately than he was initially and should continue to get better. A year from now, who knows?

Good point. I think he's the heir to the sixth man role in SA.

[100%duncan]

TD21 its not like we dont have enough shooters imho its just that making the 2 is much easier for this team with the new guys (west lma simmons). And we have seen that this team can ring it up offensively when needed like last game and against the clippers. Although I agree that Marco would have been a good fit with this new team, I cant complain due to the historic defense and losing marco is certainly a big part of that. Having a volume 3pt shooter wouldve been great, not necessary, and besides what did we have left to offer and who was left from the field?

[SAGirl]

TD21 its not like we dont have enough shooters imho its just that making the 2 is much easier for this team with the new guys (west lma simmons). And we have seen that this team can ring it up offensively when needed like last game and against the clippers. Although I agree that Marco would have been a good fit with this new team, I cant complain due to the historic defense and losing marco is certainly a big part of that. Having a volume 3pt shooter wouldve been great, not necessary, and besides what did we have left to offer and who was left from the field?

Jimmer and oh wait! That's it. I am in Raven' s camp, I'd still not take Marco even if we could afford him, but obviously my take is debatable. Other guys would still take him over Anderson/Simmons and they have a valid point. For me though bc of his lack of defense Marco is nor a guy to build around if you don't have Manu and we are winning now while hopefully developing some guys who have upside and can help us win games on both ends when Manu hangs it up. I prefer those guys even if they are not lighting it up.

All things considered I think Pop would have gone with ElNono, kept Marco played him and we'd be right back in 2014-15 when we lost a lot of games against shitty teams we had no business loosing.

[100%duncan]

I always thought butler was the mini marco replacement but he's been out of the rotation for quite a while now.

[SAGirl]

I always thought butler was the mini marco replacement but he's been out of the rotation for quite a while now.

I think even if the other two guys can't offer Butler's shooting, Pop is really high on both. Not only giving all these opportunities to Simmons, but not sending Kyle back to the dleague with Ray and leaving Butler as your 14th guy in the bench tells you Pop cares very much about their development. There is no guarantee we have Manu next year and we can only add a modest free agent and will probably need to pay Boban and such. Our growth as a team for next year has to come mostly internally.

[apalisoc_9]

This team def needs a little bit more three point juice. Patty Mills and Danny Green are essentially the only volume three pointers this team have. Kawhi and Manu are not natural three pointers even if the former is the best in the league.

The issue with having only Mills and Green is that both of them play their minutes seperatly majority of the time so that leaves most of the rotation with only one shooter. If one isnt hitting it, then there is really no alternative for the specific rotation.

Both Kawhi and Manu demand enough respect from the three point line but they are a much more versatile scorer.

Can the spurs win without another one, yeah...but it would make life easier for them against the warriors if they add another one.

[100%duncan]

This team def needs a little bit more three point juice. Patty Mills and Danny Green are essentially the only volume three pointers this team have. Kawhi and Manu are not natural three pointers even if the former is the best in the league.

The issue with having only Mills and Green is that both of them play their minutes seperatly majority of the time so that leaves most of the rotation with only one shooter. If one isnt hitting it, then there is really no alternative for the specific rotation.

Both Kawhi and Manu demand enough respect from the three point line but they are a much more versatile scorer.

Can the spurs win without another one, yeah...but it would make life easier for them against the warriors if they add another one.
The "need" is highlighted because Dg has sucked so far. Imagine the old dg(like tonight), mills hitting like himself, kawhi with 2-3 threes per game, bobo manu parker with the occasional 3s. All of them command respect whilst not being a liabilty to the defense like marco was.

And we really shouldnt take for granted the context our FO was under in, who was available and what did we have left to offer.

[SAGirl]

As of now Kyle Anderson is the only Spurs player that can do some of the things Ginobili can do.

I think he has a place here, and his job right now is to learn, so he is learning.

Pop doesnt have a problem with him, but for the very limited role he will have this year, he will play Simmons now to see if he can play him, over Anderson who Pop already knows what to expect.

I think we have to wait to see if Anderson plays over Simmons, because as of now Simmons needs the minutes more than Anderson.

PS: Its the same situation between Bonner and Boban, while i agree Boban is a better player, you could make the case as if who of him and bonner wil have the 13th spot, well as of now it looks like boban gets more PT than the red mamba, but it coul be argued that this is because Boban needs the playing time while Boner already knoes the plays and system.

I see it differently, at this point I think Pop has decided to go with Simmons over Kyle bc Kyle is too unpredictable and will still make bad decisions with the ball at times. I think you are more likely to know what Simmons will want to do than you do Kyle. Simmons stays within the system except in transition. Even if he makes a mistake he was at least playing within the system.

Kyle's a bit unpredictable, and will freelance at times. He's able to save possessions going nowhere bc he can get his own shot and has done so at a relative high rate lately, so he's gotten a bit of a leash against some weaker teams but he's always looked to pass first, then his shot. I think Pop's just observing him and then getting on him if he's screwing up. He's capable of the highlight pass or shot, or he may get trapped with no exit. He has to make reads quicker, but it's tricky bc if you are nonchalant with the ball it's a TO and the bench and you have to be put in situations to figure things out.

He's intriguing though bc when Manu retires a creative passer will be very much a need. Simmons is a good passer, but he stays within the offense. Kyle has potential to be on another level finding cutters and seeing other things. He's probably at the stage where the game is developing too fast for him and his timing is off. If you hesitate your pass window is closed. Timings and stuff like that you have to play actual games to work on and he will get trapped occasionally. A lot of those things are purely from vet savvy, you anticipate what the defense is doing etc. He's just not there yet and needs more playing time but that is not development time you can spare against the strongest teams in the league... and yet it's something that you want to develop nonetheless.

[ceperez]

I see it differently, at this point I think Pop has decided to go with Simmons over Kyle bc Kyle is too unpredictable and will still make bad decisions with the ball at times. I think you are more likely to know what Simmons will want to do than you do Kyle. Simmons stays within the system except in transition. Even if he makes a mistake he was at least playing within the system.

Kyle's a bit unpredictable, and will freelance at times. He's able to save possessions going nowhere bc he can get his own shot and has done so at a relative high rate lately, so he's gotten a bit of a leash against some weaker teams but he's always looked to pass first, then his shot. I think Pop's just observing him and then getting on him if he's screwing up. He's capable of the highlight pass or shot, or he may get trapped with no exit. He has to make reads quicker, but it's tricky bc if you are nonchalant with the ball it's a TO and the bench and you have to be put in situations to figure things out.

He's intriguing though bc when Manu retires a creative passer will be very much a need. Simmons is a good passer, but he stays within the offense. Kyle has potential to be on another level finding cutters and seeing other things. He's probably at the stage where the game is developing too fast for him and his timing is off. If you hesitate your pass window is closed. Timings and stuff like that you have to play actual games to work on and he will get trapped occasionally. A lot of those things are purely from vet savvy, you anticipate what the defense is doing etc. He's just not there yet and needs more playing time but that is not development time you can spare against the strongest teams in the league... and yet it's something that you want to develop nonetheless.

I don't think Kyle will be playing anywhere but with the Spurs. He's the 3rd best passer in the team (behind Manu and Boris), but any passer needs to have receivers that get the timing right. That takes familiarity with you teammates that can only come with practice.

Right now, I think he's a the level of Shaun Livingtson, but without the green light. He absolutely needs to improve his 3 point shooting so players can't sag off him. His shot actually looks much improved since the start of the season, this could be a good sign. You just never know when he'll jump the shark in that skill set.

[tholdren]

Marco is instant offense and would take and sometimes make a big shot.

Anderson isn't wired that way. He would make a good pass or the correct off ball play.

Both are equally important - I don't feel like either is exponentially better than the other

TIE

[SAGirl]

I don't think Kyle will be playing anywhere but with the Spurs. He's the 3rd best passer in the team (behind Manu and Boris), but any passer needs to have receivers that get the timing right. That takes familiarity with you teammates that can only come with practice.

Right now, I think he's a the level of Shaun Livingtson, but without the green light. He absolutely needs to improve his 3 point shooting so players can't sag off him. His shot actually looks much improved since the start of the season, this could be a good sign. You just never know when he'll jump the shark in that skill set.

You are right ceperez!! I have to agree with you.

[Raven]

Marco is instant offense and would take and sometimes make a big shot.

Anderson isn't wired that way. He would make a good pass or the correct off ball play.

Both are equally important - I don't feel like either is exponentially better than the other

TIE
KA is exponentially better and it's not even a discussion or contest. And you guys pretend like the italian 500 was Gary Neal on offense, creating his own shot and shit..

[sexinthatsx]

Kyle Anderson is the mismatch that the Spurs need tbh. Spurs sacrificed letting a 3 point marksman go for developing a point forward that can pass in Kyle Anderson. Like everyone else has said, given that Ginobili is basically the playmaker and ball distributor of the team, Kyle Anderson is needed more than Marco Belinelli.

[TD 21]

Letting go of someone is saying they don't value what you bring to the table for your cost. Cost/benefit wasn't there. Hence let go.

Apparently you've never heard of the salary cap.


But, they have shooters, you are acting like they don't.
If the rest of your 9 man rotation is not going to get it done, you are not going to expect your 4th wing to save you.
At this point, Kawhi has ascended so stratospherically high that if you need a 3 pt shot, he should be the one taking it.

But they're short one, at least one that's good enough to be in the rotation of a legitimate championship contender.

Look around at other elite teams rotations and think back to recent elite ones. Guys like Simmons/Anderson are not in them.

The difference between elite teams in a series, is more often than not razor thin, which means the margins matter. Neal had a monster game 3 against the Heat in '13. Belinelli hit a huge shot in game 3 against the Heat '14, to stem the tide.

Specifically against the Warriors and particularly on the road, if they're going to outscore the Spurs damn near 3 to 1 from three, the Spurs aren't beating them.


TD21 (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=908) its not like we dont have enough shooters imho its just that making the 2 is much easier for this team with the new guys (west lma simmons). And we have seen that this team can ring it up offensively when needed like last game and against the clippers. Although I agree that Marco would have been a good fit with this new team, I cant complain due to the historic defense and losing marco is certainly a big part of that. Having a volume 3pt shooter wouldve been great, not necessary, and besides what did we have left to offer and who was left from the field?

To be clear, I'm not criticizing them for losing Belinelli. I'm just saying, he was a better fit and fourth wing, specifically that type of one, it clearly the biggest weakness on the roster and the one spot they need to look to upgrade.



This team def needs a little bit more three point juice. Patty Mills and Danny Green are essentially the only volume three pointers this team have. Kawhi and Manu are not natural three pointers even if the former is the best in the league.

The issue with having only Mills and Green is that both of them play their minutes seperatly majority of the time so that leaves most of the rotation with only one shooter. If one isnt hitting it, then there is really no alternative for the specific rotation.

Both Kawhi and Manu demand enough respect from the three point line but they are a much more versatile scorer.

Can the spurs win without another one, yeah...but it would make life easier for them against the warriors if they add another one.

:tu

[100%duncan]

It's not the biggest weakness imho, its exacerbated by the fact that danny has sucked for a while, luckily he's coming together the past few games. Our weakness is another defensive wing who ideally can shoot the 3 to enter the game when kiwi and dg are resting against gsw, belinelli isnt that one. This team can beat any team in a 7 game series right now unquestionably except gsw.

[dabom]

Apparently you've never heard of the salary cap.



But they're short one, at least one that's good enough to be in the rotation of a legitimate championship contender.

Look around at other elite teams rotations and think back to recent elite ones. Guys like Simmons/Anderson are not in them.

The difference between elite teams in a series, is more often than not razor thin, which means the margins matter. Neal had a monster game 3 against the Heat in '13. Belinelli hit a huge shot in game 3 against the Heat '14, to stem the tide.

Specifically against the Warriors and particularly on the road, if they're going to outscore the Spurs damn near 3 to 1 from three, the Spurs aren't beating them.



To be clear, I'm not criticizing them for losing Belinelli. I'm just saying, he was a better fit and fourth wing, specifically that type of one, it clearly the biggest weakness on the roster and the one spot they need to look to upgrade.




:tu


Do I need to say cap every fucking time I talk. It is already implied. :lmao