Did David Robinson revolutionize basketball?

[Thomas82]

Do you think David Robinson revolutionized/changed basketball? I think he did it with his athleticism on the court. Doc Rivers summed it up best by once referring to him as a "scoring Bill Russell". I also believe The Admiral set the bar from a community service standpoint as well.

[cd98]

No. He was a unique player, but didn't revolutionize basketball. I would say the transition of the big men from playing on the block (which Robinson did a lot) to playing face up and shooting jumpers was probably thanks to Kevin Garnett, who played like a really tall guard. I also think it was brought about by having so many Euro bigs that came in the league with no back to the basket abilities, but with the ability to shoot threes.

[kaji157]

I really don´t think his impact extends over the NBA but over San Antonio. So my vote is no.

Also in the NT he didn´t achieve to make a path of nationalism and honor in representing you country as he might have wanted considering the NT in the years after him started a steady decline that finished with 2004 and 2006 bronce medals.

I do think he changed San Antionio´s community.

[DD]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

[Thomas82]

No. He was a unique player, but didn't revolutionize basketball. I would say the transition of the big men from playing on the block (which Robinson did a lot) to playing face up and shooting jumpers was probably thanks to Kevin Garnett, who played like a really tall guard. I also think it was brought about by having so many Euro bigs that came in the league with no back to the basket abilities, but with the ability to shoot threes.

Good points.

[spurraider21]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0
Banned

/lakersground

[Kawhitstorm]

Ever heard of Hakeem, he was a pioneer as he was the 1st African superstar.

[DMC]

Maybe he revolutionized the way ex-players cling on to the franchise to ride their glory wagon coattails years after retirement. He and Gervin have that in common.

[dabom]

Maybe he revolutionized the way ex-players cling on to the franchise to ride their glory wagon coattails years after retirement. He and Gervin have that in common.

Shut your faggot ass up. You don't know shit about DRob.

[DMC]

Shut your faggot ass up. You don't know shit about DRob.
I've known Drob since he entered the league, faggot

[dabom]

I've known Drob since he entered the league, faggot

What part as a Philanthropist do you hate about Drob faggot?

[tmtcsc]

I answered "no" but I'm just curious - how exactly do you think he revolutionized basketball? I'll remember him as great defender but not much more. Although he won the scoring title one year and an MVP award, he was not a 'great' offensive player. He made up for a lot of his flaws with his athleticism. Dude could fly up and down the court and jump out of the building in his early years. Unfortunately, he didn't have the tenacity and competitive drive to elevate the team to a championship. I didn't really see it until Tim came along. Then Manu joined the team and was the very definition of tenacious. That dude refused to lose.

Please don't get my post twisted. David Robinson was and still is a model citizen and was the very definition of "loyal". If not for him, I don't think the Spurs would even be in San Antonio anymore. He was extremely important to this city and for being an anchor to 2 Championships. He allowed Tim to come in without undue pressure and was the face of the franchise. Hell, Tim has said as much. He managed to be voted one of the Top 50 players in history and helped earn a Gold medal in the Olympics. I just think he was a far better compliment piece than team leader. Who knows how great he could have been if he devoted more time in the gym to working on his game? Its well known that he was no gym rat like Tim or Kawhi.

[SpurPadre]

I answered "no" but I'm just curious - how exactly do you think he revolutionized basketball? I'll remember him as great defender but not much more. Although he won the scoring title one year and an MVP award, he was not a 'great' offensive player. He made up for a lot of his flaws with his athleticism. Dude could fly up and down the court and jump out of the building in his early years. Unfortunately, he didn't have the tenacity and competitive drive to elevate the team to a championship. I didn't really see it until Tim came along. Then Manu joined the team and was the very definition of tenacious. That dude refused to lose.

Please don't get my post twisted. David Robinson was and still is a model citizen and was the very definition of "loyal". If not for him, I don't think the Spurs would even be in San Antonio anymore. He was extremely important to this city and for being an anchor to 2 Championships. He allowed Tim to come in without undue pressure and was the face of the franchise. Hell, Tim has said as much. He managed to be voted one of the Top 50 players in history and helped earn a Gold medal in the Olympics. I just think he was a far better compliment piece than team leader. Who knows how great he could have been if he devoted more time in the gym to working on his game? Its well known that he was no gym rat like Tim or Kawhi.

One can make the argument the franchise didn't support Da Admiral enough with better players around him. Give Admiral a Manu and TP in their primes and he probably has more than 2 rings.

[dabom]

One can make the argument the franchise didn't support Da Admiral enough with better players around him. Give Admiral a Manu and TP in their primes and he probably has more than 2 rings.

Just give him a manu for sure.

[Obstructed_View]

He's by far the most athletic big man the league has ever seen, he's a far better post player than most people remember, and he was one of the physically toughest players I ever saw.

No, he didn't revolutionize basketball. Wilt did. Bird and Magic did collectively. That's the end of the list.

[SpurPadre]

He's by far the most athletic big man the league has ever seen, he's a far better post player than most people remember, and he was one of the physically toughest players I ever saw.

No, he didn't revolutionize basketball. Wilt did. Bird and Magic did collectively. That's the end of the list.

Uh...MJ?

[SAGirl]

One can make the argument the franchise didn't support Da Admiral enough with better players around him. Give Admiral a Manu and TP in their primes and he probably has more than 2 rings.
Good point, he didn't have the quality of teammates Tim has had, therefore the comparison is and always will be unfair to D.Rob, no disrespect to Timmy at all.

[Obstructed_View]

Uh...MJ?

Jordan was a great scorer and a great competitor, but he didn't do anything on the court to change the game. Dr J. revolutionized the game far more than Jordan did.

[TD 21]

Good point, he didn't have the quality of teammates Tim has had, therefore the comparison is and always will be unfair to D.Rob, no disrespect to Timmy at all.

Except it ignores the fact that Duncan didn't have either Ginobili or Parker in their prime in '03, yet authored arguably the greatest all around playoff performance of all time en route to leading them to the championship.

[dabom]

Except it ignores the fact that Duncan didn't have either Ginobili or Parker in their prime in '03, yet authored arguably the greatest all around playoff performance of all time en route to leading them to the championship.

Drob at .203WS/48 at 23mpg. Like a Manu role with defense. That's a very good role player and tons of veteran experience.

People also forget bruce bowen lockdown defense.

[SAGirl]

Except it ignores the fact that Duncan didn't have either Ginobili or Parker in their prime in '03, yet authored arguably the greatest all around playoff performance of all time en route to leading them to the championship.
They were not in their prime but they were good players. That is like saying a 1st year 2nd yr Kawhi was not a good player. He was not the MVP candidate he is right now, but even as a youngster he was impactful.
D.Rob then may be compared to a Tim now, reduced role but he's still a plus player.
Again, no disrespect to Timmy at all. Until Tim came along, I don't think D.Rob had the same quality teammates. . . far as I know, that was long b4 I followed Spurs.

[Horse]

Unfortunately his injuries screwed us out of many yrs. But you Fuckers forget he was the best big in basketball before that. Yes Hakeem had an amazing run but Drob owned him before that.

[bic50]

Unfortunately his injuries screwed us out of many yrs. But you Fuckers forget he was the best big in basketball before that. Yes Hakeem had an amazing run but Drob owned him before that.

[SpurPadre]

Good point, he didn't have the quality of teammates Tim has had, therefore the comparison is and always will be unfair to D.Rob, no disrespect to Timmy at all.

Exactly, no disrespect for Timmy at all. Admiral had a tall task carrying a bunch of subpar players around him in key roles. Conversely, you give TD the Admiral's athleticism and better shooting ability and you have the second greatest player of all-time after MJ...and maybe he even surpasses him.

[SnakeBoy]

Revolutionize would mean change the way basketball is played. I don't see a bunch of 7 footers with the speed & athleticism of a guard in the NBA so the answer would be No.

[Kawhitstorm]

Drob at .203WS/48 at 23mpg. Like a Manu role with defense. That's a very good role player and tons of veteran experience.

People also forget bruce bowen lockdown defense.

Did you forget that Admiral was on the bench along w/ Porker when the Spurs made the comeback against the Mavs in Gm 6 & he wasn't that much better than Malik Rose against the Lakers?:lol

[TD 21]

Drob at .203WS/48 at 23mpg. Like a Manu role with defense. That's a very good role player and tons of veteran experience.

People also forget bruce bowen lockdown defense.

None were second stars for a championship team.



They were not in their prime but they were good players. That is like saying a 1st year 2nd yr Kawhi was not a good player. He was not the MVP candidate he is right now, but even as a youngster he was impactful.
D.Rob then may be compared to a Tim now, reduced role but he's still a plus player.
Again, no disrespect to Timmy at all. Until Tim came along, I don't think D.Rob had the same quality teammates. . . far as I know, that was long b4 I followed Spurs.

He didn't, at least from the mid aughts on. But for some reason it's forgotten, both by the masses and many Spurs fans, that Duncan somehow kept a terrible roster (especially on the perimeter), in the early aughts, among the top few teams in the league.

[dabom]

Did you forget that Admiral was on the bench along w/ Porker when the Spurs made the comeback against the Mavs in Gm 6?:lol

:lol

[SpurPadre]

Jordan was a great scorer and a great competitor, but he didn't do anything on the court to change the game. Dr J. revolutionized the game far more than Jordan did.

Of course he changed the game. Before he came to the scene, the league was dominated by Centers. His explosive slashing moves to the basket, handling of the ball, great shooting, and a great post up game was lacking in many shooting guards at the time as well. When he came, that changed because players "wanted to be like Mike". He even changed how defense was played at the perimeter. His impact was so dramatic that the league eventually outlawed hand-checking to make the game "more enjoyable" and to make it possible for other athletic guards after MJ retired to blossom into the "next MJ".

[sasaint]

He's by far the most athletic big man the league has ever seen, he's a far better post player than most people remember, and he was one of the physically toughest players I ever saw.

No, he didn't revolutionize basketball. Wilt did. Bird and Magic did collectively. That's the end of the list.

The list begins with George Mikan. How do you think Bird and Magic collectively revolutionized basketball?

[Down Under]

Definitely did. Has never been someone that big who was that athletic and fast. Could take guys off the dribble at will. Would be close to the best player in the game today, given how much bigger he would be than other Centers and still to quick.

[DMC]

What part as a Philanthropist do you hate about Drob faggot?

Why do you think the word "philanthropist" needs to be capitalized?

[cd98]

Definitely did. Has never been someone that big who was that athletic and fast. Could take guys off the dribble at will. Would be close to the best player in the game today, given how much bigger he would be than other Centers and still to quick.

To revolutionize, it would mean change the way others that followed. David was a great player, but no one in the league is copying his game. He was a unique talent, but he didn't change the game. In fact the bigs now don't play "center" like they did 20 years ago. Now centers are 6'9 and shoot jumpers and draw charges. The game has gone away from the big man.

in saying this, I would say the same thing about Tim. Great player but probably the end of the dominant back to the basket players.

[ezau]

Many people don't realize that Robinson is actually a rich man's version of Chris Bosh. The Admiral had the athleticism of a small forward and an all-around skill set that will make him a terror in today's NBA. Can you just imagine a prime D-Rob guarding a prime Steph Curry on a switch? :lol Not sure if Curry could even hoist a shot, tbh.

[Johnny RIngo]

His impact was insane in the 90s. Carried mediocre squads for most of his career until Duncan arrived. He's a GOAT defender candidate and is still underrated to this day. Hell, you have fake ass Spurs fans like GreatFaggot that think Avery Johnson was more important than him:


Tim won a championship with Avery as his second banana.


Avery was responsible for more points in the playoffs and was clutch, tbh.

:lol

[Chinook]

No. Bonner did more to change the game than Robinson did. A lot more. It's not about how good the player is. In fact, it's the opposite. Robinson was a one-of-a-kind guy who's game could be chalked up to that (like Lebron). Bonner is a guy who by all accounts would not be in the league if he weren't both a knock-down shooter and a big. The fact that such a mediocre overall player could make an impact is what forced the league to rethink spacing and shooting bigs. Almost every team has a Bonner nowadays, only one or two have a guy with even 70 percent of Robinson's toolbox.

[vander]

Of course he changed the game. Before he came to the scene, the league was dominated by Centers. His explosive slashing moves to the basket, handling of the ball, great shooting, and a great post up game was lacking in many shooting guards at the time as well. When he came, that changed because players "wanted to be like Mike". He even changed how defense was played at the perimeter. His impact was so dramatic that the league eventually outlawed hand-checking to make the game "more enjoyable" and to make it possible for other athletic guards after MJ retired to blossom into the "next MJ".

and after MJ, the titles were won by Duncan, Shaq, Wallace, Garnet, Gasol, Dirk.

[lmbebo]

Few players revolutionize the game. DRob was gifted with amazing athletic ability. Played the position like no one before him, but he didn't really change the game or the position. He just happened to be quicker and more athletic than most other big men.

[LakerHater]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

Man, I fuckn remember that. My parents, in their 5 year of season tix, couldnt go so I went got to watch Hakeem bitch slap David with the trophy he shoulda won!

[Obstructed_View]

The list begins with George Mikan.

Fair enough. Mikan is way before my time.


How do you think Bird and Magic collectively revolutionized basketball?
The position got weaker the more I thought about it after my post, but the rationale at the time was that they brought it from a sport that you could see on tape delay after the news to a game that everyone watched. I suppose timing has a great deal to do with that, as cable TV and David Stern deserve an enormous amount of credit for it as well.

[Obstructed_View]

Man, I fuckn remember that. My parents, in their 5 year of season tix, couldnt go so I went got to watch Hakeem bitch slap David with the trophy he shoulda won!

David was the MVP that year. Any argument otherwise is ridiculous. Robinson dominated the head to head matchup with Hakeem over their career, despite Dream having far better teammates. That one playoff run was the only time Hakeem came out on top.

If you put Robinson on the Rockets and Hakeem on the Spurs, the Rockets win that series in four blowouts.

[Obstructed_View]

Of course he changed the game. Before he came to the scene, the league was dominated by Centers. His explosive slashing moves to the basket, handling of the ball, great shooting, and a great post up game was lacking in many shooting guards at the time as well. When he came, that changed because players "wanted to be like Mike". He even changed how defense was played at the perimeter. His impact was so dramatic that the league eventually outlawed hand-checking to make the game "more enjoyable" and to make it possible for other athletic guards after MJ retired to blossom into the "next MJ".

Again, I can make a case that Dr. J did all that before Jordan even left North Carolina. The "Like Mike" thing was a Gatorade commercial. If you want to talk about global marketing, which he basically invented and still owns, then that's a different discussion. If rule changes = revolutionizing, then Mark Jackson revolutionized the game too, and I don't agree with your opinion. Jordan was the best player to ever lace up shoes in the NBA, but he just did the same shit better than everyone else did.

[skulls138]

How do you think Bird and Magic collectively revolutionized basketball?Popularity and passing. Now how about Russell the GOAT?

[cutewizard]

He's by far the most athletic big man the league has ever seen, he's a far better post player than most people remember, and he was one of the physically toughest players I ever saw.

No, he didn't revolutionize basketball. Wilt did. Bird and Magic did collectively. That's the end of the list.


How about Chamberlain?

Russell?

And lets not forget, Sabonis creamed DRob, hahaha

_----------------------------------------------------

Anyway, DRob was the reason I became a Spurs fan

He was my first NBA idol, him and MJ

[sasaint]

Popularity and passing. Now how about Russell the GOAT?

A defensible position regarding Russell. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he revolutionized the game. The lane wasn't expanded because of Russell, but because of Chamberlain.

BTW, I realize it is off-topic, but I would nominate Oscar Robertson as the GOAT though I do not believe he came close to revolutionizing the game. (I realize that Oscar as GOAT is a very unpopular stance these days, and I do not want to derail this thread. I make the comment solely to illustrate my position on Russell.)

[sasaint]

Popularity and passing. Now how about Russell the GOAT?

As far as passing is concerned (even popularity among a certain age group), I would argue that Pete Maravich had a more profound impact on the game. Even shooting - the guy was Curry before Curry. Once Pete crossed half court, the defense was vulnerable. It would be interesting to hear Magic, Bird and even Curry talk about Maravich and his influence. I would wager that absent Maravich there may have never been a Magic (or possibly even Bird).

[TXstbobcat]

Robinson is the reason that I became a Spurs and an NBA fan as a kid. :toast

[Gagnrath]

I don't feel that Robinson revolutionized the game of basketball. I do feel that he helped in a big way to evolve the nba into the league we see today. The way he engaged the community and fans has been used as a an example of far reaching consequences and is the model of public interaction that is held up by the league itself with its David Robinson good citizenship award.

Someone doesn't have to be revolutionary to be impactful. A major step forward in a direction when at a crossroads is probably as meaningful of a move as a decisive change. In the late 90s and early 2000s the nba was at a crossroads most players are and were decent enough people but the league had an image issue with lots of morally and legally questionable figures. David and to a lesser extent Dikembe showed that NBA players could be a positive influence on their communities and the world.

[skulls138]

A defensible position regarding Russell. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he revolutionized the game. The lane wasn't expanded because of Russell, but because of Chamberlain.

BTW, I realize it is off-topic, but I would nominate Oscar Robertson as the GOAT though I do not believe he came close to revolutionizing the game. (I realize that Oscar as GOAT is a very unpopular stance these days, and I do not want to derail this thread. I make the comment solely to illustrate my position on Russell.)Im not sure how or if he revolutionized the game but if anyone was desiring to win a championship in an era with the greatest athlete including size in NBA history look no further. I couldnt point to a change in history but surely he inspired players that heart, desire and especially defense and rebs can overcome great fetes of athleticism and seeming unstoppable force.

[skulls138]

As far as passing is concerned (even popularity among a certain age group), I would argue that Pete Maravich had a more profound impact on the game. Even shooting - the guy was Curry before Curry. Once Pete crossed half court, the defense was vulnerable. It would be interesting to hear Magic, Bird and even Curry talk about Maravich and his influence. I would wager that absent Maravich there may have never been a Magic (or possibly even Bird).Ok but Magics and Birds passing seemed to have more impact in wins and championships. Also theres Cousy before Maravich.

[sasaint]

Im not sure how or if he revolutionized the game but if anyone was desiring to win a championship in an era with the greatest athlete including size in NBA history look no further. I couldnt point to a change in history but surely he inspired players that heart, desire and especially defense and rebs can overcome great fetes of athleticism and seeming unstoppable force.

Russell certainly represented all you say. I suppose he even revolutionized play, albeit in a pretty small way. It was Russell who was first credited with blocking opponents' shots with the aim of keeping the ball in play for his own team - not just swatting it into the cheap seats in some display of machismo. Russell was undeniably great. But there is a difference between "revolutionizing" the game and contributing to its evolution.

[sasaint]

Ok but Magics and Birds passing seemed to have more impact in wins and championships. Also theres Cousy before Maravich.

I never associate Cousy with the kind of passing skill we are talking about, although I never saw him play except in newsreels and instructional films (not videos) back in basketball camp, when we were proud to wear Converse All-Stars - a big step up from PF Flyers! Maravich's play was pure razzle-dazzle. Before injuries took their toll, he was like a white Harlem Globetrotter playing in the NBA. No doubt his own game owed more to Marques Haynes than Bob Cousy.

You are right about Pete's game not resulting in lots of wins, but since it is a team game, that never really entered into my calculus. Maravich inspired every kid who picked up a basketball to try behind-the-back passes in an era when anything other than a two-handed chest pass was not "fundamental."

[skulls138]

Russell certainly represented all you say. I suppose he even revolutionized play, albeit in a pretty small way. It was Russell who was first credited with blocking opponents' shots with the aim of keeping the ball in play for his own team - not just swatting it into the cheap seats in some display of machismo. Russell was undeniably great. But there is a difference between "revolutionizing" the game and contributing to its evolution.Well then he definitely didnt revolutionize the game because everybody still swats them into the cheapseats, other than Duncan that is. Oh well their loss.

[sasaint]

Well then he definitely didnt revolutionize the game because everybody still swats them into the cheapseats, other than Duncan that is. Oh well their loss.

:lol

[LoneStarState'sPride]

Maybe he revolutionized the way ex-players cling on to the franchise to ride their glory wagon coattails years after retirement. He and Gervin have that in common.

Kill yourself.

[skulls138]

His impact was insane in the 90s. Carried mediocre squads for most of his career until Duncan arrived. He's a GOAT defender candidate and is still underrated to this day. Hell, you have fake ass Spurs fans like GreatFaggot that think Avery Johnson was more important than him:To be honest, on offense Avery was probably more valuable. Robinsons main contributions were defensively at that time. Putting everything together its close, thats all I'll say.

[sasaint]

Fair enough. Mikan is way before my time.

Just for the record, Mikan was before my time, too! :lol

[Obstructed_View]

To be honest, on offense Avery was probably more valuable. Robinsons main contributions were defensively at that time. Putting everything together its close, thats all I'll say.

Um, no. Avery's value to the team is due to how terrible the point guard situation was after Strick left. What people say Malone did for Stockton's stats, David actually did for Avery.

[SpursNW]

... And the right answer? Yes. Why? Fastest, quickest, most athletically talented, 2-way Big of all time. Forced teams to re-rack their entire defensive and offensive strategy. Watched him take an "average Joe" Navy team (with no one over 6'7") to the elite 8. Took a raw Spurs team to the playoffs. Check out what the Dream, Mullin and Chambers said about him his rookie year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyGCGTfFay4

"It ghostly... transcends to another level... Sky is the limit... Carry that team a long way..."

What many don't know - he is RIDICULOUSLY coordinated - scoring the highest grade in his USNA class in Gymnastics - a mandatory course involving full floor events, sawhorse, parallel bars... (I know, I was a tall gangly guy and got SMACKED DOWN in that course)

Throw on top of that 1300 SAT (math/verbal), amazing character, community service, team first...

[SpursforSix]

His injury sure did. Allowing the Spurs to become the dynasty they are today.

[SpursforSix]

Um, no. Avery's value to the team is due to how terrible the point guard situation was after Strick left. What people say Malone did for Stockton's stats, David actually did for Avery.

Yessir. Too bad Pop didn't get a chance to coach the crazy out of Strickland.

[kjhip1]

Why do you think the word "philanthropist" needs to be capitalized?

Why don't you answer the question first instead of deflecting?

[DMC]

Why don't you answer the question first instead of deflecting?
The question was unintelligible. Do you care to rephrase it for him?

[SnakeBoy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW4uXlRGAF0

That video just reminds me what a shitty defensive coach Bob Hill was. Every play in that video shows DRob playing 1 on 1 defense, meanwhile DRob was getting double and triple teamed on the other end. The plus side of that series was Pop ended up firing Hill and took over the team for himself.

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

That video just reminds me what a shitty defensive coach Bob Hill was. Every play in that video shows DRob playing 1 on 1 defense, meanwhile DRob was getting double and triple teamed on the other end. The plus side of that series was Pop ended up firing Hill and took over the team for himself.

That wasn't only due to terrible coaching though. Rockets had great shooters around Hakeem, which forced the Spurs to stay on them and leave DRob without help, whereas Rockets could afford to throw bodies at Robinson cause no one on the Spurs could really hurt them and the Spurs also had one guy who didn't bother to focus. Very poorly constructed team. The fact they even got there and made a series out of this was a testament to Robinson's individual brilliance.

[Frank Dux]

Maybe he revolutionized the way ex-players cling on to the franchise to ride their glory wagon coattails years after retirement. He and Gervin have that in common.

Meh. Robinson is part of the ownership group. He has a financial interest in the ongoing success of the organization.

[SPURt]

David was way ahead of his time, a 7 footer that could run the fast break, handle the ball, shoot the ball, and protect the rim. He is the prototype for what every NBA team wants out of a center right now.

Just because there are not a lot of people like him in the game before or since doesn't mean he isn't exactly what teams would want from a 5. They changed the rules for Shaq, he changed the game considerably but we will never see another player with that same impact.

Those trolling and saying Jordan didn't change the game are hilarious! A DPOY from the guard position that was also the scoring champ in the same year, y'all must not have seen Jordan play. Magic and Bird were not going to compete on the defensive end like Jordan. Jordan also did more for the brand of the NBA and how athletes monetize their name and likeness than any athlete in any sport ever. Some awful takes in this thread lol!

[Frank Dux]

... And the right answer? Yes. Why? Fastest, quickest, most athletically talented, 2-way Big of all time. Forced teams to re-rack their entire defensive and offensive strategy. Watched him take an "average Joe" Navy team (with no one over 6'7") to the elite 8. Took a raw Spurs team to the playoffs. Check out what the Dream, Mullin and Chambers said about him his rookie year: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyGCGTfFay4

"It ghostly... transcends to another level... Sky is the limit... Carry that team a long way..."

What many don't know - he is RIDICULOUSLY coordinated - scoring the highest grade in his USNA class in Gymnastics - a mandatory course involving full floor events, sawhorse, parallel bars... (I know, I was a tall gangly guy and got SMACKED DOWN in that course)

Throw on top of that 1300 SAT (math/verbal), amazing character, community service, team first...

Those are all reasons why he didn't revolutionize the game of basketball. He was a freak of nature—a once in a lifetime gift of superlative human potential. He didn't revolutionize the game because players can't just wake up and decide to be 7'1, the fastest sprinter on the court, possessing a gymnast's coordination, well above average intellectual abilities, the ability to jump through the roof, etc. Either you have all that or you don't.

You look at Jordan and entire an generation of guards tried to emulate his style of play. He revolutionized the game by changing the way people play it. My guess is that Steph Curry is going to do same thing. You look at Robinson and he stands in a league of his own in the way he played the game. There hasn't been anything like him since he came into the game. His case is similar to Shaq's. His presence and abilities were unparalleled, but it's not like players started to play like Shaq—they can't.

[DMC]

Meh. Robinson is part of the ownership group. He has a financial interest in the ongoing success of the organization.

He was kicking the column with his fucking leg, and the plaster was falling down!

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Maybe he revolutionized the way ex-players cling on to the franchise to ride their glory wagon coattails years after retirement. He and Gervin have that in common.

The Spurs probably wouldn't be in SA if not for Robinson, and Gervin was responsible in large part for the team's NBA relevance. They've probably earned the right to 'coattail' all they want.

[ducks]

Aj was a joke for David robinson

[GSH]

He's by far the most athletic big man the league has ever seen, he's a far better post player than most people remember, and he was one of the physically toughest players I ever saw.

No, he didn't revolutionize basketball. Wilt did. Bird and Magic did collectively. That's the end of the list.

If Robinson had one imperfection, it was that he was light weight. He was a gazelle on the court. Some of the heavyweights gave him trouble over the years. The same thing that allowed him that athleticism allowed guys like Hakeem and Shaq to give him hell down low. Statistically, his best seasons were 94, 95, and 96. He ran into Hakeem once, and Karl Malone twice.

Which is the next point. It would be hard to argue that Robinson revolutionized the game any more than Karl Malone. Probably less. The league had already seen Mikan and Chamberlain change the game at C. But Malone re-wrote the PF position. (Note: not saying he was the best PF - that goes to Timmy.)

Honestly, I'm not so sure Chamberlain revolutionized the game, so much as he dominated. Mikan forced the league to widen the lane and outlaw defensive goaltending. He also had a lot to do with the implementation of the shot clock. He didn't dominate in the same way Wilt did - his career EFG% was something like 40%. But when you force rule changes, and even the dimensions of part of the court, you've revolutionized the game. (The change to the width of the paint was known as the "Mikan Rule")

I'm not sure that Magic or Bird revolutionized the game, but their rivalry sure as hell did. In a real sense, that paved the way for Jordan to be a household name. Just like Dr. J made every middle school boy in the country pretend he could fly - and watch basketball.

[Obstructed_View]

Those trolling and saying Jordan didn't change the game are hilarious! A DPOY from the guard position that was also the scoring champ in the same year, y'all must not have seen Jordan play. Magic and Bird were not going to compete on the defensive end like Jordan. Jordan also did more for the brand of the NBA and how athletes monetize their name and likeness than any athlete in any sport ever. Some awful takes in this thread lol!

Jordan didn't change the game. Three of the four guys to win DPOY before Jordan were guards, all shorter than Jordan. Kareem was the scoring champ and the best defender in the league many many times. Jordan did a lot for the brand of the NBA, and Magic and Bird paved the way for that. Again, Jordan didn't do anything different from those that came before him, he just did more of it. That's not revolutionary.

[Obstructed_View]

If Robinson had one imperfection, it was that he was light weight. He was a gazelle on the court. Some of the heavyweights gave him trouble over the years. The same thing that allowed him that athleticism allowed guys like Hakeem and Shaq to give him hell down low. Statistically, his best seasons were 94, 95, and 96. He ran into Hakeem once, and Karl Malone twice.

I guess I reject that line of thinking because it feeds into the myth that Robinson avoided contact, which is completely untrue. He was physically fearless on both ends of the court. I don't know if anyone other than Karl Malone took more free throw attempts during the 90s.

[SPURt]

Jordan didn't change the game. Three of the four guys to win DPOY before Jordan were guards, all shorter than Jordan. Kareem was the scoring champ and the best defender in the league many many times. Jordan did a lot for the brand of the NBA, and Magic and Bird paved the way for that. Again, Jordan didn't do anything different from those that came before him, he just did more of it. That's not revolutionary.
But those gaurds that got defensive player of the year didn't simultaneously lead the league in scoring. Jordan was the most dominant player on both sides of the ball. He wasn't a seven footer that only had to guard the paint, that's crazy. Jordan's the GOAT and every player will be compared to him until someone is clearly more dominant (which may never happen).

[Obstructed_View]

But those gaurds that got defensive player of the year didn't simultaneously lead the league in scoring.
No they didn't. Leading the league in scoring isn't revolutionary. Someone does it every year. DPOY isn't revolutionary. Someone does it every year. Doing both is impressive, but it's not revolutionary. The only reason Kareem didn't win multiple DPOY is because the award didn't exist.


Jordan was the most dominant player on both sides of the ball. He wasn't a seven footer that only had to guard the paint, that's crazy. Jordan's the GOAT and every player will be compared to him until someone is clearly more dominant (which may never happen).
Agree with all of the above, though Jordan only won the DPOY once, so calling him the most dominant defender is probably a stretch. Many people suggest he wasn't even the best defender on his own team. Regardless, none of that revolutionizes the game, in my opinion. Tiger Woods revolutionized golf because everyone had to change the way they prepared, to get into good shape and hit the weight room in order to compete. Bobby Hull invented the curved blade on the hockey stick. Jordan didn't change the game. Jordan didn't even force rule changes like many other players did. One could make a case that Jordan took advantage of a window of time where the illegal defense rule prevented teams from being able to stop him.

[SPURt]

No they didn't. Leading the league in scoring isn't revolutionary. Someone does it every year. DPOY isn't revolutionary. Someone does it every year. Doing both is impressive, but it's not revolutionary. The only reason Kareem didn't win multiple DPOY is because the award didn't exist.


Agree with all of the above, though Jordan only won the DPOY once, so calling him the most dominant defender is probably a stretch. Many people suggest he wasn't even the best defender on his own team. Regardless, none of that revolutionizes the game, in my opinion. Tiger Woods revolutionized golf because everyone had to change the way they prepared, to get into good shape and hit the weight room in order to compete. Bobby Hull invented the curved blade on the hockey stick. Jordan didn't change the game. Jordan didn't even force rule changes like many other players did. One could make a case that Jordan took advantage of a window of time where the illegal defense rule prevented teams from being able to stop him.
It's true about the illegal defense, but Jordan also played when hand checking was legal. People think that was a defensive advantage for Pippen and Jordan, but he had to play offense against it too. I believe Jordan had a similar impact on the NBA that Tiger had to golf. NBA players get paid the way they do now because of Jordan. Jordan has done more for the game of basketball globally and locally than any professional athlete has done for any sport. Jordan had no weakness in his game and wasn't a 7'1 freak of nature. Tiger was inspired by Jordan, he taught all athletes what greatness looks like and monetized his brand to an unimaginable place. But if you think Jordan didn't change the game of basketball and had he never played the game of basketball, basketball would be exactly where it's at today, cool, but I respectfully disagree.

[SPURt]

No they didn't. Leading the league in scoring isn't revolutionary. Someone does it every year. DPOY isn't revolutionary. Someone does it every year. Doing both is impressive, but it's not revolutionary. The only reason Kareem didn't win multiple DPOY is because the award didn't exist.


Agree with all of the above, though Jordan only won the DPOY once, so calling him the most dominant defender is probably a stretch. Many people suggest he wasn't even the best defender on his own team. Regardless, none of that revolutionizes the game, in my opinion. Tiger Woods revolutionized golf because everyone had to change the way they prepared, to get into good shape and hit the weight room in order to compete. Bobby Hull invented the curved blade on the hockey stick. Jordan didn't change the game. Jordan didn't even force rule changes like many other players did. One could make a case that Jordan took advantage of a window of time where the illegal defense rule prevented teams from being able to stop him.
Also, Jordan is the only player to ever be a scoring champ and DPOY for any position. That may never happen again. Kareem only was scoring champ once, so saying he should've had more opportunities is overstating a bit.

[Obstructed_View]

It's true about the illegal defense, but Jordan also played when hand checking was legal. People think that was a defensive advantage for Pippen and Jordan, but he had to play offense against it too.
No he didn't. The rules were changed in 1979. Jordan never played in an era where hand-checking to impede progress was legal. Again, that gives him an advantage, not defenders. Defenders couldn't impede his progress on the perimeter and teams couldn't double team him without the ball. If you were going to design a player to take advantage of those two factors, you couldn't build one better than Jordan.


I believe Jordan had a similar impact on the NBA that Tiger had to golf. NBA players get paid the way they do now because of Jordan. Jordan has done more for the game of basketball globally and locally than any professional athlete has done for any sport.
I've acknowledged the financial impact he had, but selling shoes doesn't change what happens on the court. I maintain that the only reason he even had an opportunity to do so is because Magic and Bird captured the imagination of the world when they were in college, bringing the NBA out of the shadows. Before Tiger you had guys like Craig Stadler and Fuzzy Zoeller earning money and winning tournaments without even being in shape. Tiger changed the way every golfer trained, prepared and played.


Jordan had no weakness in his game and wasn't a 7'1 freak of nature. Tiger was inspired by Jordan, he taught all athletes what greatness looks like and monetized his brand to an unimaginable place. But if you think Jordan didn't change the game of basketball and had he never played the game of basketball, basketball would be exactly where it's at today, cool, but I respectfully disagree.
I agree with much of this. I didn't say Jordan didn't change the game, I said he didn't revolutionize the game. He was an amazing player with an amazing work ethic, and he was a 6'6" freak of nature.

[wildbill2u]

[QUOTE=GSH;8354112]....The league had already seen Mikan and Chamberlain change the game at C. ...Honestly, I'm not so sure Chamberlain revolutionized the game, so much as he dominated. Mikan forced the league to widen the lane and outlaw defensive goaltending. He also had a lot to do with the implementation of the shot clock. He didn't dominate in the same way Wilt did - his career EFG% was something like 40%. But when you force rule changes, and even the dimensions of part of the court, you've revolutionized the game. (The change to the width of the paint was known as the "Mikan Rule")

I think you made a mistake about Mikan. He wasn't the one who forced the lane widening. According to NBA.com's "Appreciation of Wilt Chamberlain" Chamberlain is the reason the NBA's foul lane is 16 feet wide. It was 12 feet when Chamberlain entered the league in 1959, and the 7-foot-1, 275-pounder captured both Rookie of the Year and Most Valuable Player honors by setting up shop in the low post, then using his strength to lean in on opponents and lay the ball in the basket with his soft finger-roll.After five years of watching Chamberlain score virtually at will, the powers-that-be added four feet to the width of the lane to make it a little tougher on him. Chamberlain responded by perfecting a turn-around jumper.
Chamberlain is responsible for changes in rules as well as court dimensions. When he was playing college ball at Kansas, his teammates' favorite play was to lob the ball toward the basket, hoping simply to get it in the vicinity of the rim. Chamberlain would roll to the hoop, catch whatever came within his enormous wingspan and slam it home. His rivals couldn't stop him, so the rules-makers outlawed offensive basket interference, preventing Chamberlain from touching the ball in the cylinder above the rim. That rule remains in effect to this day, in both the college and pro games, though it is widely ignored in today's offense-starved NBA when it comes to alley-oop passes, many of which are caught in the cylinder.
Rulemakers also banned the practice of lobbing the ball in from the baseline directly over the backboard so a player — read: Chamberlain — couldn't catch it near the basket in position for an easy score.

I think Chamberlain also was responsible for the rule that says a player cannot dunk a foul shot. He was a notoriously bad FT shooter, so he tried taking a couple of steps from behind the FT line and jumping to dunk the FT. (Long before someone started doing that in the slam dunk contest). That was banned almost immediately with a new rule.

[SPURt]

No he didn't. The rules were changed in 1979. Jordan never played in an era where hand-checking to impede progress was legal. Again, that gives him an advantage, not defenders. Defenders couldn't impede his progress on the perimeter and teams couldn't double team him without the ball. If you were going to design a player to take advantage of those two factors, you couldn't build one better than Jordan.


I've acknowledged the financial impact he had, but selling shoes doesn't change what happens on the court. I maintain that the only reason he even had an opportunity to do so is because Magic and Bird captured the imagination of the world when they were in college, bringing the NBA out of the shadows. Before Tiger you had guys like Craig Stadler and Fuzzy Zoeller earning money and winning tournaments without even being in shape. Tiger changed the way every golfer trained, prepared and played.


I agree with much of this. I didn't say Jordan didn't change the game, I said he didn't revolutionize the game. He was an amazing player with an amazing work ethic, and he was a 6'6" freak of nature.
I believe handing checking was eliminated 1994 and the forearm stearing in 1997:
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/

I'm not sure what date you're getting. Also, Jordan was the main attraction of the dream team and everyone wanted "to be like Mike". I agree Magic and Bird brought the NBA to a larger American stage, but Jordan made the brand global. You mentioned Tiger's conditioning, the number one thing I see former players mention about Jordan other than his drive to win is his strength. Jordan's dogfights with the Pistons drove him to real greatness. I'm also a big Jordan homer for beating the Jazz so much. I appreciate you keeping the debate civil, this may be the longest running back and forth I've had on Spurstalk without it devolving into name calling, thank you!

[Obstructed_View]

I believe handing checking was eliminated 1994 and the forearm stearing in 1997:
http://www.nba.com/2009/news/features/david_aldridge/04/22/aldridge.defenses/

I was going by http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html It mentions that they stopped allowing defenders to impede progress. Hand checking was eliminated in specific places in 1994, but good defenders weren't relying on it at all by that point IIRC.


I'm not sure what date you're getting. Also, Jordan was the main attraction of the dream team and everyone wanted "to be like Mike". I agree Magic and Bird brought the NBA to a larger American stage, but Jordan made the brand global.
Couldn't agree more. Saying that he didn't revolutionize the game is in no way intended to take away from what he did. What he did off the court may never be matched in sports. He ushered in a completely new era for athletes to market themselves. On the court he was just a really really good player. He wasn't the first to dunk, he wasn't the first to play great both ways, he wasn't the first to improve every year, and he wasn't the first to be driven to win, but he probably put all those things together better than anyone maybe ever in sports.


You mentioned Tiger's conditioning, the number one thing I see former players mention about Jordan other than his drive to win is his strength. Jordan's dogfights with the Pistons drove him to real greatness. I'm also a big Jordan homer for beating the Jazz so much.
To some extent that's probably true. Great players make their competitors better, and that knife cuts both ways. There were literally fat guys winning PGA events before Tiger came along, and there weren't many fat guys dominating the NBA before Jordan came along. Barkley wasn't in good shape when he came into the league, but Moses Malone told him to get his fat ass into shape. :)


I appreciate you keeping the debate civil, this may be the longest running back and forth I've had on Spurstalk without it devolving into name calling, thank you!
Ditto. I'm not always successful at keeping the discussion civil. I try more now than I did when I was younger.

[Obstructed_View]

[QUOTE=GSH;8354112]....The league had already seen Mikan and Chamberlain change the game at C. ...Honestly, I'm not so sure Chamberlain revolutionized the game, so much as he dominated. Mikan forced the league to widen the lane and outlaw defensive goaltending. He also had a lot to do with the implementation of the shot clock. He didn't dominate in the same way Wilt did - his career EFG% was something like 40%. But when you force rule changes, and even the dimensions of part of the court, you've revolutionized the game. (The change to the width of the paint was known as the "Mikan Rule")

I think you made a mistake about Mikan. He wasn't the one who forced the lane widening. According to NBA.com's "Appreciation of Wilt Chamberlain" Chamberlain is the reason the NBA's foul lane is 16 feet wide. It was 12 feet when Chamberlain entered the league in 1959, and the 7-foot-1, 275-pounder captured both Rookie of the Year and Most Valuable Player honors by setting up shop in the low post, then using his strength to lean in on opponents and lay the ball in the basket with his soft finger-roll.After five years of watching Chamberlain score virtually at will, the powers-that-be added four feet to the width of the lane to make it a little tougher on him. Chamberlain responded by perfecting a turn-around jumper.
Chamberlain is responsible for changes in rules as well as court dimensions. When he was playing college ball at Kansas, his teammates' favorite play was to lob the ball toward the basket, hoping simply to get it in the vicinity of the rim. Chamberlain would roll to the hoop, catch whatever came within his enormous wingspan and slam it home. His rivals couldn't stop him, so the rules-makers outlawed offensive basket interference, preventing Chamberlain from touching the ball in the cylinder above the rim. That rule remains in effect to this day, in both the college and pro games, though it is widely ignored in today's offense-starved NBA when it comes to alley-oop passes, many of which are caught in the cylinder.
Rulemakers also banned the practice of lobbing the ball in from the baseline directly over the backboard so a player — read: Chamberlain — couldn't catch it near the basket in position for an easy score.

I think Chamberlain also was responsible for the rule that says a player cannot dunk a foul shot. He was a notoriously bad FT shooter, so he tried taking a couple of steps from behind the FT line and jumping to dunk the FT. (Long before someone started doing that in the slam dunk contest). That was banned almost immediately with a new rule.

There's a written exception in the rules for alley oops. Something about a player being near his own basket and legally touching the ball.

[Sean Cagney]

Jordan was a great scorer and a great competitor, but he didn't do anything on the court to change the game.

Come on man, everyone is labeled as the next Jordan all the time. He was the biggest icon the game had ever seen.
That wasn't only due to terrible coaching though. Rockets had great shooters around Hakeem, which forced the Spurs to stay on them and leave DRob without help, whereas Rockets could afford to throw bodies at Robinson cause no one on the Spurs could really hurt them and the Spurs also had one guy who didn't bother to focus. Very poorly constructed team. The fact they even got there and made a series out of this was a testament to Robinson's individual brilliance.

I agree with this.

[Obstructed_View]

Come on man, everyone is labeled as the next Jordan all the time. He was the biggest icon the game had ever seen.

Very true. I agree. Don't know why you guys keep throwing the obvious at me as though it changes what I said. He dribbled, he posted up, he shot jumpers, he slashed to the basket, he played defense. All been done before. Great. Best ever. Not revolutionary.

[Sean Cagney]

Very true. I agree. Don't know why you guys keep throwing the obvious at me as though it changes what I said. He dribbled, he posted up, he shot jumpers, he slashed to the basket, he played defense. All been done before. Great. Best ever. Not revolutionary.

I disagree on that last part but hey it's your opinion.

[Thomas82]

Also, Jordan is the only player to ever be a scoring champ and DPOY for any position. That may never happen again. Kareem only was scoring champ once, so saying he should've had more opportunities is overstating a bit.

David Robinson was also a scoring champ and DPOY, just not in the same season.

[SPURt]

David Robinson was also a scoring champ and DPOY, just not in the same season.
I should've added in the same season, as that was my intention. That's my bad

[TheBestEver]

He revolutionized choking and bible-thumping, that's for sure.

[NameLess Scrub]

Very true. I agree. Don't know why you guys keep throwing the obvious at me as though it changes what I said. He dribbled, he posted up, he shot jumpers, he slashed to the basket, he played defense. All been done before. Great. Best ever. Not revolutionary.

I started following the NBA in the 90s, so I've always been under the impression that Jordan was a pioneer in guards post ups and fade-aways.
Being a 6'6" SG, he also seemed to be physically superior to other guards, which kind of brought the need to have bigger SGs that could dominate at the position.

Was there other stars so mid range oriented too?

My impression is that Jordan changed the way guards wanted to play, the most evident example being Kobe.

Of course I could be wrong since I didn't watch pre 90s NBA..

[Obstructed_View]

I started following the NBA in the 90s, so I've always been under the impression that Jordan was a pioneer in guards post ups and fade-aways.
Being a 6'6" SG, he also seemed to be physically superior to other guards, which kind of brought the need to have bigger SGs that could dominate at the position.

Was there other stars so mid range oriented too?

My impression is that Jordan changed the way guards wanted to play, the most evident example being Kobe.

Of course I could be wrong since I didn't watch pre 90s NBA..

Oscar Robertson was an amazing post player, and he was a 6'5" point guard. I remember Jordan's post game developing over his career. I don't think he arrived with that turnaround. He was physically superior to almost everyone, plus he had an incredible drive to win and a work ethic that was second to none. He certainly raised the bar for everyone in the NBA with the things that he did, but nobody has come close to duplicating what he brought to the game, which is why I say dominant and not revolutionary. It's simply not intended as a slam on a goat player.

[NameLess Scrub]

Oscar Robertson was an amazing post player, and he was a 6'5" point guard. I remember Jordan's post game developing over his career. I don't think he arrived with that turnaround. He was physically superior to almost everyone, plus he had an incredible drive to win and a work ethic that was second to none. He certainly raised the bar for everyone in the NBA with the things that he did, but nobody has come close to duplicating what he brought to the game, which is why I say dominant and not revolutionary. It's simply not intended as a slam on a goat player.

I understand.. it's my thoughts on Steph Curry. Right now I don't see him turning the game into a bunch of 3pt shooters.
He seems like too much of a video game shooter for that.

[wildbill2u]

I started following the NBA in the 90s, so I've always been under the impression that Jordan was a pioneer in guards post ups and fade-aways.
Being a 6'6" SG, he also seemed to be physically superior to other guards, which kind of brought the need to have bigger SGs that could dominate at the position.

Was there other stars so mid range oriented too?

My impression is that Jordan changed the way guards wanted to play, the most evident example being Kobe.

Of course I could be wrong since I didn't watch pre 90s NBA..

Everyone was a mid-range shooter until the ABA started the 3pt. shot--and the NBA scoffed at the new league and the "circus" it created with the crazy red,white and blue ball, the athletes (mostly black) who were changing the game by doing things like dunks from way up in the air, and the 3pt. shot. The game became more wide open and entertaining with the ABA teams and players, so the NBA changed and also brought a few ABA teams like the Spurs into the NBA.

However, even with the introduction of the 3pt. shot, there were only a few at first, mostly ABA players who specialized in it. The mid range jumper still ruled in both leagues for a while. The Spurs had one of the best, James Silas, AKA Captain Late who got the ball isolated on his man at the end of close games and was almost a guarantor of a win with a mid-range jumper at the last second of the game.

[Obstructed_View]

I understand.. it's my thoughts on Steph Curry. Right now I don't see him turning the game into a bunch of 3pt shooters.
He seems like too much of a video game shooter for that.

Time will tell, but with the way Curry has worked to increase his distance, you might start to see other guys training the same way. If that changes the way guys shoot, then you could call that revolutionary. I remember when the Rockets went with the inside out offense, and guys started hitting a consistently high percentage of threes over the course of a game. The only reason nobody had done it up to that point is that nobody really thought it was possible.