Oregon militia standoff: What should government do?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2016/0104/Oregon-militia-standoff-What-should-government-do


This weekend, armed antigovernment protesters took over a federal wildlife center in rural Oregon, saying they were willing to stay for years. The question is: What does the government do now?

The incident – the latest chapter in a longstanding conflict over federal land use in Western states that dates back to the Sagebrush Rebellion – points to an evolution in federal law enforcement's response after tragedies that resulted from similar standoffs in the 1990s, experts say. Since Waco and Ruby Ridge, law enforcement has learned to dial back its response, experts say. But, they note, Saturday’s takeover also suggests federal agencies have yet to find the “sweet spot” when it comes to dealing with armed protesters under siege.

“They clearly understand not to go in with guns ablaze,” says Richard White, a Stanford University professor of history who specializes in the American West. “I’m not sure what else they understand, though.”

In some ways, federal response to armed protests have shifted dramatically in the past two decades, experts say. In 1992, a confrontation between federal agents and Randy Weaver and his family at his home in northern Idaho ended in a shootout that resulted in the deaths of Mr. Weaver’s wife, Vicki, and 14-year-old son and Deputy US Marshal William Francis Degan.

A year later, federal and state law enforcement agents laid siege to and then raided a compound in Waco, Texas, that belonged to the Branch Davidians, a religious group suspected of weapons violations. Nearly 80 people died in the ensuing gun battle.

In both cases, “there was an unwillingness to understand who the people were inside the building and what their concerns were,” says Catherine McNicol Stock, a historian and director of the American Studies program at Connecticut College in New London, Conn. “The idea is, if [law enforcement agents] had approached [these groups] taking their religious beliefs seriously, they might have been able to do something that wouldn’t have been the tragedy that happened.”

By contrast, not a single shot was fired during the standoff in 2014 between the federal Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and Cliven Bundy, who had refused to pay $1 million in grazing fees or recognize the government’s authority over the land, Reuters reported at the time. Instead – citing public safety, the BLM suspended its siege of Mr. Bundy’s ranch in Bunkerville, about 80 miles north of Las Vegas, and returned some of the animals already seized.

“The heavy-handed kind of actions that were at Ruby Ridge and Waco back in the '90s, people digging in their heels – that’s what you want to try to defuse,” says David Schanzer, director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security at Duke University in North Carolina. “Taking the low-key approach, preventing more people from joining this protest is the way to go.”

Yet while any response that avoids bloodshed is commendable – and many praised the BLM for its restraint during the Bundy incident – steps must also be taken to prevent such incidents from taking place again, Professor Schanzer and others say.

[TheSanityAnnex]

pity post

[Clipper Nation]

OP is a faggot.

[mingus]

What's the crux of the issue here? I've read headlines on this shit, but every one that I've began to read either didn't delve into the cause of the protesters or was from a sketchy partisan source (HP, Yahoo) that I won't waste my time reading. Can someone explain in summary what this is about (just the facts) an/or give me a trustworthy link?

[TheSanityAnnex]

What's the crux of the issue here? I've read headlines on this shit, but every one that I've began to read either didn't delve into the cause of the protesters or was from a sketchy partisan source (HP, Yahoo) that I won't waste my time reading. Can someone explain in summary what this is about (just the facts) an/or give me a trustworthy link?http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=231354&page=35

[Wild Cobra]

What's the crux of the issue here? I've read headlines on this shit, but every one that I've began to read either didn't delve into the cause of the protesters or was from a sketchy partisan source (HP, Yahoo) that I won't waste my time reading. Can someone explain in summary what this is about (just the facts) an/or give me a trustworthy link?
Sorry. I live in Oregon and haven't seen squat on it.

[baseline bum]

They fucked up when they backed down to that faggot Bundy.

[Wild Cobra]

It isn't any more newsworthy than this I bet:

http://koin.com/2014/07/14/squatter-given-1-final-week-to-leave-portland-home/

[boutons_deux]

set up perimeter, nobody, nothing, in or out, starve them, make eat snow. real peaceful like.

[ChumpDumper]

683764510662901760lol Y'all Qaeda isn't food independent?

All those wasted Patriot Supply radio spots....

[boutons_deux]

I heard one of Cliven's sons on NPR. These assholes are so simplistic, so deluded, totally lost in their own airy fairy bullshit.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I heard one of Cliven's sons on NPR. These assholes are so simplistic, so deluded, totally lost in their own airy fairy bullshit.
:lol says the keyboard commando who accomplishes absolutely nothing online 24/7

[pgardn]

This has got a great deal of possibility on the hilarity scale.

Im gonna set up a check point next to one tree in a drainage ditch. On county land dammit...

[DMC]

Day of the rope is approaching, as a famous man once said.

[pgardn]

Day of the rope is approaching, as a famous man once said.

I know I'm hunkering down...

[Splits]

I know I'm hunkering down...

Here's an easy guide: http://www.theprepperjournal.com/2014/02/26/preppers-list-of-supplies/

[angrydude]

Don't kill/murder them to start with.

[boutons_deux]

Don't kill/murder them to start with.

Hell No! They're not black, brown, or Muslim.

[Wild Cobra]

Oregon militia standoff: What should government do?

It's freezing ass cold in that part or Oregon this time of year. Cut off the electricity and stop paying any attention to him as he wants the media attention. Sit back in the local town in a warm building, and let them freeze there asses off. Collect the dead frozen bodies later.

Or...

Wait outside in warm vans, not allowing them to hunt for food or get water. They will come out at some point.

Here is where they of on Google maps:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Malheur+National+Wildlife+Refuge/@43.2653363,-118.844764,425m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x54b0cc82b05d2dff:0x3bad4 0bd36367dfd!6m1!1e1

Weather forecast:

http://www.usairnet.com/weather/forecast/narrows,oregon/

[Drachen]

Pretty much what everyone else said. Surround them, cut off water, electricity, etc. Wait until they give up

[Wild Cobra]

Pretty much what everyone else said. Surround them, cut off water, electricity, etc. Wait until they give up

Biggest thing, don't play into the media about this. that's what they realy want. Attention.

[boutons_deux]

Biggest thing, don't play into the media about this. that's what they realy want. Attention.

21F tonight, I expect the really want heat.

[Wild Cobra]

21F tonight, I expect the really want heat.

LOL...

The forecast I linked has a low of 12F coming up Sunday. Isn't that something like -11 C?

[baseline bum]

21F tonight, I expect the really want heat.

Any decent sleeping bag is comfortable at 21F.

[Wild Cobra]

Any decent sleeping bag is comfortable at 21F.

Yes, but in the cold, 24/7, and not getting the attention they want?

[Wild Cobra]

Go to 5:44 of this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0RkDhM9aQE

[Koolaid_Man]

Use drones to shoot at them all...and if they die..they die...

We need to send a message to all these militia groups that they can be got without hand to hand combat....need to send a strong message to these guys..I liken them to radical Muslims except they don't wear turbands

[Drachen]

Well I just read that they aren't even surrounding them. They can go in and out at will because they don't want it to look "siege-y". Fuck that bull shit.

[Wild Cobra]

Well I just read that they aren't even surrounding them. They can go in and out at will because they don't want it to look "siege-y". Fuck that bull shit.

They are out in the middle of nowhere, and haven't done anything but trespass. If you can even consider it trespass. It's a vacated part of public property.

[TheSanityAnnex]

Use drones to shoot at them all...and if they die..they die...

We need to send a message to all these militia groups that they can be got without hand to hand combat....need to send a strong message to these guys..I liken them to radical Muslims except they don't wear turbands
Did you also recommend droning the rioters in Ferguson and Baltimore?

[Trill Clinton]

so they acquitted the leaders smh

[boutons_deux]

... if they had been Black Panthers, or Native Americans

[Trill Clinton]

... if they had been Black Panthers, or Native Americans

791781084052594688

[boutons_deux]

white privilege

got together, trashed govt property, no conspiracy

what about $100Ks damage to govt property?

[boutons_deux]

"Bundy and others, including his brother and co-defendant Ryan Bundy, cast the 41-day occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge as a legitimate and patriotic act of civil disobedience"

:lol

#RedNeckLivesMatter

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/oregon-standoff-refuge-not-guilty_us_5812858ce4b0990edc303679?utm_medium=emai l&utm_campaign=The%20Morning%20Email%20102816&utm_content=The%20Morning%20Email%20102816+CID_df9 639024d4c1055c0e3b94c76d3cbe3&utm_source=Email%20marketing%20software&utm_term=Reuters

Is there a separate trial for non-conspiratorial damaging of taxpayers' stuff?

[boutons_deux]

white people fuck with the US govt, get off

Native Americans, supporters fuck with BigOil, get attacked by milatraized riot cops, beaten, tazed, pepper sprayed, arrested, strip searched, jailed.

[boutons_deux]

Juror explains Bundy acquittals: Arrogant prosecutors failed to prove armed takeover was conspiracy

Nickens said he polled the jurors Oct. 20, shortly after deliberations began, and found the other jurors had already made up their minds to acquit

judge’s instructions prevented the jury from relying on the defendants’ “defining actions” to prove they had conspired to prevent federal employees from carrying out their official duties through intimidation, threat or force at the Malheur National Wildlife Preserve.

“We were not asked to judge on bullets and hurt feelings, :lol

rather to decide if any agreement was made with an illegal object in mind,” the juror wrote. “It seemed this basic, high standard of proof was lost upon the prosecution throughout.”

jury members were persuaded by defense arguments that they should

not confuse the “effect” of the occupation from the “intent” of the occupiers. :lol holy shit WTF?

jury members ... were insulted by the perceived arrogance of the prosecutors. :lol jurors had "hurt feelings" :lol

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/10/juror-explains-bundy-acquittals-arrogant-prosecutors-failed-to-prove-armed-takeover-was-conspiracy/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story% 29

Seems like the judge queered the jury and was biased against the prosecutors. US govt must appeal.

[TheSanityAnnex]

what ever happened to the two FBI agents that lied about shooting Finicum and tampered with the crime scene and took the bullet casing?

[Winehole23]

jury members were persuaded by defense arguments that they should

not confuse the “effect” of the occupation from the “intent” of the occupiers. :lol holy shit WTF?mens rea, boutons. you can't have a criminal conspiracy without it.

conspiracy is tricky to prove. the government might have had an easier time getting lesser charges to stick.

[boutons_deux]

mens rea, boutons. you can't have a criminal conspiracy without it.

conspiracy is tricky to prove. the government might have had an easier time getting lesser charges to stick.

so the bubbas just randomly, accidentally happened to show up at the same time, same place, armed, to occupy, trash taxpayers' property?

It as FUCKING CONSPIRACY to commit a crime.

[TheSanityAnnex]

mens rea, boutons. you can't have a criminal conspiracy without it.

conspiracy is tricky to prove. the government might have had an easier time getting lesser charges to stick.

This could not have helped the prosecution much

Minoggio was one of 15 confidential informants who fed the FBI information about the occupiers, testimony showed.


Nine of the 15 were at the refuge for various lengths of time between Jan. 4 and Jan. 26, according to a statement that Assistant U.S. Attorney Craig Gabriel read to jurors. Those nine included the three who have been identified at trial: Minoggio, defense witness Terri Linnell of California and Mark McConnell, who was the driver of the Jeep that Ammon Bundy was riding in when he was arrested on Jan. 26.
None of the unidentified other six informants were at the refuge beyond Jan. 23, Gabriel told jurors.


Killman, defense lawyer Tiffany Harris pointed out in a written legal brief, was a participant in the firearms and military-style maneuvers training during the occupation and helped train one of the defendants, Jeff Banta, in hand-to-hand combat techniques.
He spoke with a French or South African accent to people at the refuge and his Facebook profile included a majority of friends who occupied the refuge, according to defense lawyers. Defense investigators learned Minoggio was born in Switzerland and had served in the Swiss army for 20 years. He was trained in "psy-ops,'' weaponry and martial arts, according to Harris' legal brief.
(http://media.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/other/2016/10/17/HARRISFBIINFORMANT.pdf)

"We are dealing here with a situation of a confidential informant who is participating in the commission of the alleged offense,'' defense lawyer Marcus Mumford said in court.

Earlier Monday, prosecutors had refused to confirm if the man who went by "Mr. Killman'' was working for the government.


Assistant U.S. Attorney Geoffrey Barrow said prosecutors aren't obligated to disclose any information identifying informants. If a person takes the witness stand and isn't truthful about their role, then the government would be responsible to come forward and correct any misinformation, he said.


Harris, who is standby counsel to defendant Shawna Cox, said Killman had been adamant that he wasn't an FBI informant, yet unredacted records that defense lawyers had from the government on the 15 confidential sources provided supporting material to suggest that he was acting in that capacity. They believe he was classified as the FBI's "confidential source No. 2.''


Brown called the matter "a very unique scenario.'' She ruled that she wouldn't order the government to identify any of its 15 confidential sources, but if a witness testifies in a way that the government knows is false, "then we have a different story.''
Defense lawyer Matthew Schindler, who represents defendant Kenneth Medenbach, argued that the defense team had the right to know who the "mystery people'' were who brought the 22 long guns and 12 handguns to the refuge that prosecutors had FBI agents parade before jurors. Schindler pointed out that prosecutors and the FBI didn't identify who brought most the guns.

http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/10/defense_rests_with_witness_con.html

[boutons_deux]

finally, Barry going crazy pissed-off knitter on the White Boys.

I'd love to hear Barry say, paraphrasing Cloven, "Let Me Tell You About The White Boy"

Obama Declares Site Of The 2014 Bundy Standoff A National Monument

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/obama-designates-gold-butte-national-monument-bundy-ranch?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+tpm-news+%28TPMNews%29

[baseline bum]

ROFL I'm watching the Frontline episode about the Bundy douchebags and the Malheur occupation. This shit is hilarious, they're showing video the faggots in Lavoy Finicium's car took when he was shot. LOL them crying about him getting shot when he kept reaching to his waist.

[Th'Pusher]

ROFL I'm watching the Frontline episode about the Bundy douchebags and the Malheur occupation. This shit is hilarious, they're showing video the faggots in Lavoy Finicium's car took when he was shot. LOL them crying about him getting shot when he kept reaching to his waist.

Let's see if TSA can unholster Donald's cock from his mouth long enough to weigh in on this.

[spurraider21]

to answer OP and to quote the president of the united states of america, "bomb the shit out of them and take out their families"

[TSA]

Let's see if TSA can unholster Donald's cock from his mouth long enough to weigh in on this.

what ever happened to the two FBI agents that lied about shooting Finicum and tampered with the crime scene and took the bullet casing?

[Th'Pusher]

what ever happened to the two FBI agents that lied about shooting Finicum and tampered with the crime scene and took the bullet casing?

It took you four days to pull Donald's cock out of your mouth?

[monosylab1k]

ROFL I'm watching the Frontline episode about the Bundy douchebags and the Malheur occupation. This shit is hilarious, they're showing video the faggots in Lavoy Finicium's car took when he was shot. LOL them crying about him getting shot when he kept reaching to his waist.

:lmao talking all that shit about how they were all ready to start a civil war and die for their cause. First guy to get popped and they're crying like pussies and surrendering. Sounds about right for the typical right wing gun nut.

[TSA]

It took you four days to pull Donald's cock out of your mouth?

what ever happened to the two FBI agents that lied about shooting Finicum and tampered with the crime scene and took the bullet casing?

[baseline bum]

LOL the guy kept reaching for his waist like going for a weapon and telling them just to shoot him and people are pissed he got shot. :lmao

[baseline bum]

:lol thought he was going to be a martyr

[TSA]

what ever happened to the two FBI agents that lied about shooting Finicum and tampered with the crime scene and took the bullet casing?

FBI SPECIAL AGENT INDICTED FOR MAKING FALSE STATEMENTS AND OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE

PORTLAND, Ore. – A federal grand jury in Portland has charged W. Joseph Astarita, a member of the FBI’s Hostage Rescue Team (HRT) based in Quantico, Va., with three counts of making false statements and two counts of obstruction of justice.

Astarita was one of a number of FBI agents assigned to the armed occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge and was present during the shooting of Robert LaVoy Finicum on January 26, 2016, in Harney County, Oregon.

The indictment alleges that Astarita knowingly and willfully made false statements to FBI Supervisory Special Agents, knowing that the statements were false and material to the FBI’s decision not to investigate the propriety of an agent-involved shooting.

Specifically, Astarita falsely stated he had not fired his weapon during the attempted arrest of Mr. Finicum when he knew he had in fact fired his weapon. Astarita also knowingly engaged in misleading conduct toward Oregon State Police officers by failing to disclose that he had fired two rounds during the attempted arrest.

http://www.ktvz.com/news/fbi-agent-indicted-in-lavoy-finicum-shooting/566626538

[Pavlov]

White militia guy shot -- TSA follow story forever.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Merill Beyeler bears the classic look of a Western rancher. He’s got the leathery face of someone who has spent a lot of time outdoors. He wears flannel shirts, jeans, and a bone-colored cowboy hat.

Mr. Beyeler, whose family roots in Idaho’s Lemhi County extend back to the 1850s, is also a rock-ribbed Republican. True, in Idaho, one of the reddest states in the nation, most people are Republican. But in Lemhi County, a hauntingly beautiful expanse of bald, taupe mountains and verdant river valleys wedged up against the Montana border, virtually no one puts a Democratic bumper sticker on his or her pickup. So you’d think that people like Beyeler would be happy at the prospect of the new Trump administration, buttressed by one of the most conservative cabinets in decades, ushering in a dramatic change in the management of public lands in the West. You’d think that they would relish the prospect of federal agencies either opening up more expanses to ranchers and commercial interests or giving more control to states.

You’d be wrong.

While Beyeler occasionally chafes at the way federal lands are managed, he doesn’t want US Forest Service and Bureau of Land Management land opened up unconditionally to loggers or developers, or – worse – handed over to bureaucrats in Boise and sold off. “The reason you come home is that this is the soul of our people,” he says. “When you look at our public lands in that respect – as an economic driver and as the soul of our state – the idea of losing that, or risking that, is just too great.”

As the Trump administration works to fashion an identity in Washington, one of the big questions is how much the federal government will change its stewardship of public lands in the West. With Republicans in control of Congress, many envision a significant shift in access to and development of public expanses similar to what happened under the Reagan administration 35 years ago. They believe it could be one of the signature achievements of the Trump era. A few on the right are even pushing for an outright transfer of some of those lands to state control.

Yet others – including many Republicans – occupy a more pragmatic middle. Like Beyeler, they are looking for a recalibration rather than a land-management revolution. They believe that the natural landscape is as much a part of the region’s identity as coal seams and oil shale and requires at least some federal stewardship. And they believe firmly that public lands need to stay public – not sold off to private interests.

When Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R) of Utah recently introduced a bill in Congress to sell 3.3 million acres of federal lands in the West, he was forced to withdraw the legislation days later because of the backlash from his own constituents, many of whom regularly fish for trout or hunt elk on federal lands.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2017/0507/The-new-range-war