BBALL Breakdown: 3 Point Shooting: Why the Post Up will never die

[SAGirl]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZyS96tpaCA
http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/12/3-point-shooting-why-the-post-up-will-never-die/
Summary:

1. Whatever the case may be, offenses that setup a large portion of their three-pointers via passes from the perimeter have generally not fared well.

2. the best three-point looks still appear to be the ones created via post opportunities—with Atlanta, San Antonio, and Golden state among the top five in three-pointers generated off post ups

Very interesting. As we have seen all our post up players both take their own shot, but kick out to shooters specially. The most special and unique of these guys, Boban finding Patty Mills. :toast

[cutewizard]

hhhmmm interesting

Is LaMarcus a good post player??

because this is the difference between life and death for us in the Western Finals

[SAGirl]

I am going to bump up this one... although ppl seem more interested in trolling Simmons for being a lifelong Rockets fan and hating the Spurs...

It's funny some posters blamed LMA post ups for Danny's struggles, when this video basically tries to make the point that open 3s generated out of post ups are some of the best shots in basketball if you have a good post up player, who is adept at finding open shooters.

[GSH]

It was worth the bump, and it was a damned good video analysis. I could speculate why you didn't get a lot of comments, but you probably already know.

One of my pet peeves is a weak, off-target pass to a 3P shooter. When they have to lean out to grab the ball, then try to get back to vertical, square up, and THEN release it give the defender time to challenge. But, worse, it too often causes a shooter to take an off-balance shot, and not to have their legs under them. Or it forces them to pull the ball down and leaves them boxed into the corner holding the ball - recipe for a turnover.

The part about the drive and kick passing was excellent, too. And it's where Tony's skills leave something to be desired. For the drive/kick to be effective, the guard has to be quick - which means he's making the pass at full speed, or after having made an insta-stop. As a result, the passes off the drive and kick are often a little off target. Too often, it winds up making the guard look good, and the shooter look bad. Tony is especially bad about it. The one I hate is when he tries to make a pass opposite to the direction he is driving, and it has no zip on it at all. The other night he did that, and the ball bounced twice before it reached it's target. By that time, the defender was up in his shorts.

The best point was that on a perimeter pass, the shooter has to turn his body toward the passer. So even if the pass is on target, he still has to turn and square up. And it's a lot harder to step into the shot after doing that. On a pass from the post, the shooter is already facing generally toward the basket, and it is natural for him to step into the shot in rhythm. That's why having good-passing big men who don't panic is such a big weapon. And it's what makes Boris such a threat, because he's so hard to match up against when he's posting up. And while the defender is doing everything he can to defend his shot, Boris is finding the perfect pass to make.

One thing the video didn't really talk about is the passing angles. (Something I talk about regularly, but I don't think most people know what the hell it means.) The angles on those perimeter passes are a lot flatter, and the pass often has to be thrown a little wide to keep it from being picked off. The prospective 3P shooter never really has a chance, but still feels compelled to try.

I guess I can't bitch too much, since the Spurs have the second best record in the league. They can't be doing things all that badly. But I think that video shows one of the places they can improve. And, yeah, it shows why the post-up is so important.

[TDfan2007]

It was worth the bump, and it was a damned good video analysis. I could speculate why you didn't get a lot of comments, but you probably already know.

One of my pet peeves is a weak, off-target pass to a 3P shooter. When they have to lean out to grab the ball, then try to get back to vertical, square up, and THEN release it give the defender time to challenge. But, worse, it too often causes a shooter to take an off-balance shot, and not to have their legs under them. Or it forces them to pull the ball down and leaves them boxed into the corner holding the ball - recipe for a turnover.

The part about the drive and kick passing was excellent, too. And it's where Tony's skills leave something to be desired. For the drive/kick to be effective, the guard has to be quick - which means he's making the pass at full speed, or after having made an insta-stop. As a result, the passes off the drive and kick are often a little off target. Too often, it winds up making the guard look good, and the shooter look bad. Tony is especially bad about it. The one I hate is when he tries to make a pass opposite to the direction he is driving, and it has no zip on it at all. The other night he did that, and the ball bounced twice before it reached it's target. By that time, the defender was up in his shorts.

The best point was that on a perimeter pass, the shooter has to turn his body toward the passer. So even if the pass is on target, he still has to turn and square up. And it's a lot harder to step into the shot after doing that. On a pass from the post, the shooter is already facing generally toward the basket, and it is natural for him to step into the shot in rhythm. That's why having good-passing big men who don't panic is such a big weapon. And it's what makes Boris such a threat, because he's so hard to match up against when he's posting up. And while the defender is doing everything he can to defend his shot, Boris is finding the perfect pass to make.

One thing the video didn't really talk about is the passing angles. (Something I talk about regularly, but I don't think most people know what the hell it means.) The angles on those perimeter passes are a lot flatter, and the pass often has to be thrown a little wide to keep it from being picked off. The prospective 3P shooter never really has a chance, but still feels compelled to try.

I guess I can't bitch too much, since the Spurs have the second best record in the league. They can't be doing things all that badly. But I think that video shows one of the places they can improve. And, yeah, it shows why the post-up is so important.


Guys like Timmy and Shaq are/were incredible at making accurate passes out of the double team right in the shooter's pocket. Go back and look at tape of game 7 of the 2005 Finals and you'll see 2 perfect examples of it in the 4th quarter (Timmy to Bruce, then Timmy to Manu for the dagger).

Learning how to initiate offense from the post is also the biggest area where Anthony Davis needs to improve. He could help his team out so much by going in the post more, drawing double teams, and learning how to properly read and kick it out. Instead he's too content to settle for fadeaways, floaters, and 3s...his all-world talent still allows him to put up great numbers, but the team doesn't fare as well as it could.

[GSH]

Guys like Timmy and Shaq are/were incredible at making accurate passes out of the double team right in the shooter's pocket. Go back and look at tape of game 7 of the 2005 Finals and you'll see 2 perfect examples of it in the 4th quarter (Timmy to Bruce, then Timmy to Manu for the dagger).

Learning how to initiate offense from the post is also the biggest area where Anthony Davis needs to improve. He could help his team out so much by going in the post more, drawing double teams, and learning how to properly read and kick it out. Instead he's too content to settle for fadeaways, floaters, and 3s...his all-world talent still allows him to put up great numbers, but the team doesn't fare as well as it could.


I used to love to watch Tim get the ball in the low post. He was more than a match for any one person down low, but he would patiently wait for the double to come, so that he could hit an open teammate. They always say that the measure of a truly great player is that he makes the players around him better. No better example I can think of than Tim. Anthony Davis, talented as he is, is nowhere near that level, for exactly the reasons you described.

Great memory of specific plays from 2005. I read that and though, "There's a serious fan." :tu

[Mr Bones]

Tim's passing out of a double team was always one of those skills that didn't get the coverage it deserved. It would always drive me crazy watching an ESPN highlight reel of a game I'd missed to see a bunch of slam dunks-- often by the team the Spurs beat by 10-12 pts-- while none of Duncan's 6 or 7 assists would make the cut.

[baseline bum]

Guys like Timmy and Shaq are/were incredible at making accurate passes out of the double team right in the shooter's pocket. Go back and look at tape of game 7 of the 2005 Finals and you'll see 2 perfect examples of it in the 4th quarter (Timmy to Bruce, then Timmy to Manu for the dagger).


Or you could just check my sig. :lol

If only Pop could teach LMA and Kawhi to pass like that out of the post.

[pgardn]

My HS coach was big on this.

Also to be considered in passes to 3 point shooters is direction the pass comes from not only because of body alignment, but because of eyes already on the basket. A pass that comes from the post AND IN LINE with the basket is the easiest to shoot for most people. Add to this the ball hits your hands in direct alignment with the basket, no need to realign your arm position.

We ran plays specifically to give this advantage. Also big is hitting the shooter in the hands with his feet already positioned to step into the shot (the shooters responsibility). The worst pass is to the left of a right handed shooter and vice versa.

There is even a huge advantage of the backboard being a lot lower than the basket. Some crappy small gyms have smaller backboards that are not as far below the rim. Bank shots are harder and quick layups much more difficult.

There are a lot of other physical rules like this that can be a big advantage if you know them.

Oh... Good find OP

[pgardn]

Tim's passing out of a double team was always one of those skills that didn't get the coverage it deserved. It would always drive me crazy watching an ESPN highlight reel of a game I'd missed to see a bunch of slam dunks-- often by the team the Spurs beat by 10-12 pts-- while none of Duncan's 6 or 7 assists would make the cut.

Tim's hands are also fkn incredible. He manages to gather in some of the worst passes, it's amazing. And the quickness he can get some of his close in bank shots has prevented so many blocks. (Along with his ball fakes) Very accurate, quick shots rather than his lumbering baby hook across the lane that can be timed.

[YGWHI]

Interesting video. Thanks for posting.


It's funny some posters blamed LMA post ups for Danny's struggles, when this video basically tries to make the point that open 3s generated out of post ups are some of the best shots in basketball if you have a good post up player, who is adept at finding open shooters.
Agree. If Danny goes supernova, deadly from behind the 3-point line with LMA out in tonight game, this board will go...

[Nathan89]

Thanks for posting the video.

[TDfan2007]

I used to love to watch Tim get the ball in the low post. He was more than a match for any one person down low, but he would patiently wait for the double to come, so that he could hit an open teammate. They always say that the measure of a truly great player is that he makes the players around him better. No better example I can think of than Tim. Anthony Davis, talented as he is, is nowhere near that level, for exactly the reasons you described.

Great memory of specific plays from 2005. I read that and though, "There's a serious fan." :tu

:bobo

Been a diehard since 02 when I started understanding basketball more. Game 7 of that 05 series is my favorite Spurs moment