Offensive REbounds

[SAGirl]

So found this article on ESPN about offensive rebounding and how it is a strategy to punish the small ball teams.
so even though we value getting back in transition, LMA going for Oboards and playing close to the basket at times has to be by design.


Fittingly, the very changes that appear to be phasing out offensive rebounding -- 3s and small ball -- are driving coaches to reconsider their approach to it. Kickout 3s immediately after an offensive rebound are among the very best shots in the game. Over the past two seasons, teams have shot about 39.5 percent -- well above the league average -- on 3s attempted one pass after an offensive rebound, per data from Vantage Sports supplied to ESPN.com. So far this season, teams have nailed about 39 percent of triples launched five or fewer seconds after an offensive rebound, per SportVU data provided to ESPN.com"If you kick it out and get a 3, that has very powerful momentum," says George Karl, the Kings' coach.
"It's just so deflating to defend for 23 seconds, give up a rebound, and then have it turn into a 3," Stevens says. "It reminds you how big an impact offensive rebounds can have."
If you can't compete against a small-ball team on its terms, you might as well try to bully it -- especially if it switches a lot on defense, leaving smaller players on big guys at the end of possessions. "You have to punish those teams," says Jason Kidd. "You have to get offensive rebounds." This is what behemoth teams like the Jazz, with Rudy Gobert and Derrick Favors, are betting big on.
That is how an undermanned Cleveland team pushed the Warriors in last year's NBA Finals -- at least for most of the first five games. The game slows in the playoffs, and becomes about matchups. Offensive rebounding might emerge as a weapon against a specific opponent, but it's hard to retrain a skill if you've just spent almost 100 games ignoring it. "When you're facing the best teams in the playoffs, you need as many ways as possible to score," Clifford says.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14505051/transition-defense-left-offensive-rebounds-cutting-room-floor

[dabom]

LMA getting O boards is a testament to himself and not by design. Pop still wants the guys to get back on D. LMA is just a good rebounder.

[Mr. Body]

Aldridge has the speed to get back on D, so leaving him to chase offensive boards still works at times.

[100%duncan]

LMA getting O boards is a testament to himself and not by design. Pop still wants the guys to get back on D. LMA is just a good rebounder.

[SAGirl]

LMA getting O boards is a testament to himself and not by design. Pop still wants the guys to get back on D. LMA is just a good rebounder.
Good point. You would not leave bonner there, you tell bonner to get back on defense.
But I guess if you have lamarcus by all means let him get a board if he's in good position to get it. It does seem that he gets a good % of those he gets his mind to go get.

[SAGirl]

A good part of early season is also experimenting.
If something doesn't work you clean it out later.

[100%duncan]

I dont think they gameplan or even lma.himself gameplans rebounding :lol its just that he's good at positioning himself instinctively imho

[tonight...you]

LMA getting O boards is a testament to himself and not by design. Pop still wants the guys to get back on D. LMA is just a good rebounder.
In between all the shit talking- you post some good ish.

[SAGirl]

I dont think they gameplan or even lma.himself gameplans rebounding :lol its just that he's good at positioning himself instinctively imho
From what I have seen some guys have green light to do certain things. Only a few guys take a 3 in transition off the bounce, just an example of certain things you don't let all guys do in your team.

So yea, I don't think others have the green light to go for OBoards, maybe Kawhi is one, if he has a good position or such. Normally he doesn't its left to his instinct. Do you want other perimeter players to take that gamble no, they are red lighted.

Lamarcus obviously has the green light to go for Oboards.

[apalisoc_9]

Not sure why articles like these are just popping up now. The league from around 09 IIRC started to emphasize more on transition defense than offensive rebounds. The SSOL suns offense in the mid 00 played a a huge part in how teams started to defend.

Pop started to religiously follow this philosophy a few years ago and majority of coaches have done the same thing. Its just obvious now because most coaches have followed suit but the league was trending towards prioritizing transition from offensive board years years ago.

I dont neccesarily think it will be a constant for years to come. I think with the current crop of players in the nba and the kind of ability and skills players have today, its wiser to go back. Its even worse with Teams like Golden State.

NBA trends in the last 15 years have been totally dependant on the kind players the league have and it should be that way. The way teams play offense is directly related to the kind of talent these generation created and the emphasis is based on that well.

Things can change.

[100%duncan]

From what I have seen some guys have green light to do certain things. Only a few guys take a 3 in transition off the bounce, just an example of certain things you don't let all guys do in your team.

So yea, I don't think others have the green light to go for OBoards, maybe Kawhi is one, if he has a good position or such. Normally he doesn't its left to his instinct. Do you want other perimeter players to take that gamble no, they are red lighted.

Lamarcus obviously has the green light to go for Oboards.

Sure but its a combination imho like you said he has the skills or maybe the wisdom in positioning, that's why we very rarely see other spur orebounding. It also might be his frustrations on his shot so he finds other ways to score :lol

[cutewizard]

lAmARCUS IS MY FAVORITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Fireball]

one of the things that Portland always did well against the Spurs was offensive rebounding ... Lopez and Aldridge were a handful tbh

as soon as we signed LMA I hoped his offensive rebounding would be a plus again despite them not being a focus in SA due to transition defense

[BG_Spurs_Fan]

Contrary to the perception most of us have had - that the Spurs are rebounding better than last season offensively - the actual numbers don't show this, the OReb% is pretty much the same and has been slightly increasing since 2011. Don't think there's been much of a change in Pop's plan, fwiw he's always let one guy go for it while the other 4 would run back.

When Duncan got old and hurt in 2010-2011 Pop seemed to switch to this ultra conservative approach and the OReb% fell from 25% to about 20-21%, which has slowly been increasing going to 23.7% this season. Not much of a difference in the grand scheme of things - these are about two extra possessions per game gained.

What's interesting is that last season's Spurs were near the bottom of the NBA in OReb% and this season they are about middle of the pack with an identical number. More teams are realizing that offensive rebounding that isn't near the basket tip-ins isn't worth fighting for, especially as teams become more disciplined in boxing out, gang defensive rebounding and quicker and more skilled in transition, thus hurting more than a couple of extra gained possessions per game would help.

[cjw]

LMA remains tops in points per possession on putbacks for guys with at least one per game:

http://stats.nba.com/playtype/#!/putbacks/?sort=PPP&dir=1&CF=PossG*G*1&Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=PerGame


He's also "winning" 56%+ of his offensive rebounding opportunities, which puts him up there with the most efficient offensive rebounding teams in OKC (Kanter), LAC (Jordan) and DET (Drummond) - not necessarily the best, but the most efficient:

http://nyloncalculus.com/stats/detailed-nba-rebounding-stats/


An advantage to having guys like Danny and Kawhi who are such effective transition defenders is it lets you be more aggressive on the offensive boards. That leaves the Spurs 15th in offensive rebounding, which is a huge step up from being 24th, 25th and 29th the past three seasons. Definitely has been a boon to the offense without a drop off defensively. Yet more proof what a boon LMA has been on both ends of the floor.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016.html#all_team_stats

[spurs10]

Will be something to keep an eye on when we play the dubs. I like the idea of trying to 'punish' people when they go small.

[SAGirl]

Not sure why articles like these are just popping up now. The league from around 09 IIRC started to emphasize more on transition defense than offensive rebounds. The SSOL suns offense in the mid 00 played a a huge part in how teams started to defend.

Pop started to religiously follow this philosophy a few years ago and majority of coaches have done the same thing. Its just obvious now because most coaches have followed suit but the league was trending towards prioritizing transition from offensive board years years ago.

I dont neccesarily think it will be a constant for years to come. I think with the current crop of players in the nba and the kind of ability and skills players have today, its wiser to go back. Its even worse with Teams like Golden State.

NBA trends in the last 15 years have been totally dependant on the kind players the league have and it should be that way. The way teams play offense is directly related to the kind of talent these generation created and the emphasis is based on that well.

Things can change.
It's a lengthy article of which I just posted a snippet. It has interviews and feedback from many coaches and points out to different strategies to counter small ball. Having a dominant rebounder (the article references Drummond) allows a team the best of both worlds. If you get the O board you get easy buckets, also its been noted how dominant big men of that nature reduce fast break opportunities bc they require multiple guys to stay back to keep them from the Boards.

It also mentions the conflict between analytics (which point out to avoid going for Oboards), and coaches strategies who will assign a guy to go for the Oboard or at least green light someone to use his judgment going for it.

Tim with his lack of agility and mobility at this point, completely avoids O Boards unless he's tipping his own miss or something. I have noticed Lamarcus going for them more aggressively and he usually has a good judgment of when he has a chance to win the board or not. Multiple guys have to stay back to box him out. I think it's helped our transition defense a bit the fact that many guys have to stay back to get a board... and as noted by someone above, he's fast enough sprinting as a big man to get back if he doesn't grab that board. Having 2 big men also allows Tim to pick up whoever is the big arriving first downcourt. Even if there is a switch, not much is lost I believe.

[DMC]

Good point. You would not leave bonner there, you tell bonner to get back on defense.
But I guess if you have lamarcus by all means let him get a board if he's in good position to get it. It does seem that he gets a good % of those he gets his mind to go get.
The Red Carpet back on defense is a bit of an oxymoron

[GSH]

LMA getting O boards is a testament to himself and not by design. Pop still wants the guys to get back on D. LMA is just a good rebounder.

I think the fact that he converts so many of them to points is why Pop lets him do it. He cleans up a BUNCH of missed shots from other players. Especially those maddening missed chip-shots.

I love it... I mean really love it... when the other team fouls one of our shooters, and there's no whistle, but then LMA taps it back in for points anyway. I'll admit to yelling at the TV on occasion, when he does it.

[GSH]

Not sure why articles like these are just popping up now. The league from around 09 IIRC started to emphasize more on transition defense than offensive rebounds. The SSOL suns offense in the mid 00 played a a huge part in how teams started to defend.

Pop started to religiously follow this philosophy a few years ago and majority of coaches have done the same thing. Its just obvious now because most coaches have followed suit but the league was trending towards prioritizing transition from offensive board years years ago.

I dont neccesarily think it will be a constant for years to come. I think with the current crop of players in the nba and the kind of ability and skills players have today, its wiser to go back. Its even worse with Teams like Golden State.

NBA trends in the last 15 years have been totally dependant on the kind players the league have and it should be that way. The way teams play offense is directly related to the kind of talent these generation created and the emphasis is based on that well.

Things can change.


Pop didn't start it "a few years ago". The Spurs have been near the bottom in OReb since 2000. The only real exceptions were 03-04 and to a lesser degree 04-05. I could write a page on why that happened, but it doesn't matter. Pop has focused on D at the expense of offensive boards from pretty much the beginning. If, as you say, they whole league has shifted that direction, it likely had something to do with them following what works. But the Spurs have still remained near the bottom in offensive rebounding - so if the other teams are trying to do the same thing, and the Spurs are still pulling down fewer offensive boards than them?

And, for the record, this subject isn't "just popping up now". Pretty much every season, someone will go trolling through the stats and "discover" that the Spurs "suck at getting offensive rebounds". And there will be a whole long discussion about how the Spurs have to improve that part of their game, if they want to have any chance at winning it all. I've had this same discussion, year after year. Oh, and the sportswriters are no exception. A lot of them don't know that it's part of Pop's game plan.

Oh... and Pop didn't go that way to counter the Suns run-and-gun offense. His theory is that if you force the team to shoot a lower FG% than you, and you limit them to one shot, most of the time you win. Yeah, teams had to play transition D against the D'Antoni Suns. But Pop followed that game plan night in and night out.

[Maddog]

I think the fact that he converts so many of them to points is why Pop lets him do it. He cleans up a BUNCH of missed shots from other players. Especially those maddening missed chip-shots.

I love it... I mean really love it... when the other team fouls one of our shooters, and there's no whistle, but then LMA taps it back in for points anyway. I'll admit to yelling at the TV on occasion, when he does it.

That and he gets back quickly even when he doesn't get it.

I must say I'm impressed with LMA as a basketball player. I'm not sure how to quite put it, but I thought he was going to be an OK defender and good rebounder scorer.
He's got really good instincts. Willing to do the dirty work. I seem to remember in a couple articles about work outs before camp and a couple of Spurs said the game was easy for him.

[SAGirl]

Oh... and Pop didn't go that way to counter the Suns run-and-gun offense. His theory is that if you force the team to shoot a lower FG% than you, and you limit them to one shot, most of the time you win. Yeah, teams had to play transition D against the D'Antoni Suns. But Pop followed that game plan night in and night out.
I didn't follow bball way back then (baby) but weren't the Magic Lakers Showtime and that era of bball in the West some of the fastest running teams and pretty much lived on transition offense anyway. I have to think transition offense and ways to counter it have existed since the beginning of bball. Only the 3 point shot has added diversity to that offense with the transition 3 nowadays. My guess.