T-Wolves: Karl Anthony Towns is the best player since 2011 Leonard.... [Archive]

apalisoc_9

01-08-2016, 10:48 AM

TDMVPDPOY

01-08-2016, 10:50 AM

the wolves have a good roster, too bad they have no system ....relying too much on individual talents to score

apalisoc_9

01-08-2016, 10:53 AM

the wolves have a good roster, too bad they have no system ....relying too much on individual talents to score
Need to trade lavine

Raven

01-08-2016, 11:02 AM

he's not a fundamentally sound defensive big at all.. he also isn't shooting the threes that he was advertised . He does look very good though, not hating at him at all.

Killakobe81

01-08-2016, 11:31 AM

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 11:34 AM

And the best number 1 pick since Lebron James.

Ive watched the wolves this year exentsively and I dont think Ive seen a more mature and Polished 18-20 year old since Lebron James.

- Hes already one of the most fundamentally sound big defensively in the whole league.

- Hes a great passer

- A much more versatile scorer than any other big in the league.

- Hes going to be an All-star in the next 3 years. And thats probably an underestimatation of how his career will end up.

Completely agree. I called him being ROTY about 2 weeks into the season after watching him play. Okafor dominates him for whatever reason, but for the rest of the games Towns has been the much better, more mature player.

He's gonna be a beast in this league. He's a lock for a top 15 fantasy player next year if he continues this play.

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 11:40 AM

I love KAT. He was the player I was disappointed in missing out on, not Oak or even Porzingis (after we saw his potential) that being said he is not abvetter prospect than Anthony Davis imho but he is definitely better than any since Davis and inbetween LeBron and Davis ...maybe durant also should be in that convo ...

If I had to choose between the three of them (Durant, Davis, Towns), I don't know what I'd do. That's a really tough call.

Raven

01-08-2016, 12:02 PM

If I had to choose between the three of them (Durant, Davis, Towns), I don't know what I'd do. That's a really tough call.
it really isn't, you take durant and laugh on anyone that makes a different choice.

Killakobe81

01-08-2016, 12:07 PM

it really isn't, you take durant and laugh on anyone that makes a different choice.

If you are saying they are all in the same draft class and same age as rookies based on college and potential I would agree with Raven (shocker) Durant has a good case. Remember Davis wasnt that great on offense in college and neither was KAT. But if you project continued growth for both Davis and KAT as bigs you can definitely make a case for those two guys. Based on what we know today Durant has the edge but I really do like Davis and Towns.

Raven

01-08-2016, 12:22 PM

If you are saying they are all in the same draft class and same age as rookies based on college and potential I would agree with Raven (shocker) Durant has a good case. Remember Davis wasnt that great on offense in college and neither was KAT. But if you project continued growth for both Davis and KAT as bigs you can definitely make a case for those two guys. Based on what we know today Durant has the edge but I really do like Davis and Towns.

based on taking them today at their respective age and based on who will be the better player 20 years from now.

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 02:30 PM

based on taking them today at their respective age and based on who will be the better player 20 years from now.

??? In 20 years Durant will be in a nursing home. He's also by far the worst defender of the three. You're looking at maybe 5 more years of prime KD. With Davis or towns you're looking at a dominant big for a decade+.

Killakobe81

01-08-2016, 02:57 PM

??? In 20 years Durant will be in a nursing home. He's also by far the worst defender of the three. You're looking at maybe 5 more years of prime KD. With Davis or towns you're looking at a dominant big for a decade+.

Im assuming Raven is saying based on drafting them as rookies not right now.

For example I still take LeBron today over Kiwi but if we are projecting who would i rather "build around" it's KL.
miami and Cavs have sucked the best years out of LeBron KL has his best years in front, barring injury.

spurraider21

01-08-2016, 03:00 PM

yeah, i didn't see this coming. kid is special

Raven

01-08-2016, 03:04 PM

Im assuming Raven is saying based on drafting them as rookies not right now.

For example I still take LeBron today over Kiwi but if we are projecting who would i rather "build around" it's KL.
miami and Cavs have sucked the best years out of LeBron KL has his best years in front, barring injury.
no,I mean it on right now with even the contracts they have currently. I also laugh really hard at everyone that thinks differently on this matter, you guys just seem to be getting caught up in hype and traditionalism like you need a franchise big and crap like that. Durant is the best player of the three and neither is even close to reaching him anytime soon if ever. when all three will be retired, Durant will be considered the best player. And lol at the thinking that AD is even a decent defender at this point in his career.

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 03:39 PM

no,I mean it on right now with even the contracts they have currently. I also laugh really hard at everyone that thinks differently on this matter, you guys just seem to be getting caught up in hype and traditionalism like you need a franchise big and crap like that. Durant is the best player of the three and neither is even close to reaching him anytime soon if ever. when all three will be retired, Durant will be considered the best player. And lol at the thinking that AD is even a decent defender at this point in his career.

Some mighty fine strawmen you've erected there.

For starters, neither myself nor killa stated that a team "needs" a franchise big. So I'm going to take you to task for that, unless you are attempting to make the argument that having a dominant big man is a bad thing and should be avoided? Serious question, because you seem to think that it's a terrible idea to build around AD or KAT.

Of course it's likely Durant ends up having the best career. But KD ie already likely in his prime, and if he continues having injury issues he might be out of his prime by 2018-2019. Tim Duncan will almost assuredly have the best career out of anyone not named LeBron in the NBA, are you saying you'd start a team with Duncan at 39 over KAT?

I also notice that rather than address Durant's shortcomings on defense you chose to go after Davis. That's fine. Davis is still a MUCH better defensive player than Durant will ever be. I'm not sure why you would even argue the point when it just further shows that KD is by no means a lock pick at this point.

Killakobe81

01-08-2016, 03:41 PM

Raven, That may be true they may never be MVP players and Durant already won his has scoring title and a Finals trip on his resume. But neither KAt nor Advais are "traditional bigs" their range and ball handling is what makes them special ...when you add to the fact they both can block shot and rebound at fairly high clip.

I was with you when you factor in all at the same age but like Cry mentioned if you do factor age and injury history tough to argue building with KD over say davis when Durant probably only has a few prime years left ... but Raven you do dance to your own beat and I respect that. I think you are wrong here but KAT & AD will need to realize their full potential for you to be wrong ...

Raven

01-08-2016, 03:49 PM

Some mighty fine strawmen you've erected there.

For starters, neither myself nor killa stated that a team "needs" a franchise big. So I'm going to take you to task for that, unless you are attempting to make the argument that having a dominant big man is a bad thing and should be avoided? Serious question, because you seem to think that it's a terrible idea to build around AD or KAT.

Of course it's likely Durant ends up having the best career. But KD ie already likely in his prime, and if he continues having injury issues he might be out of his prime by 2018-2019. Tim Duncan will almost assuredly have the best career out of anyone not named LeBron in the NBA, are you saying you'd start a team with Duncan at 39 over KAT?

I also notice that rather than address Durant's shortcomings on defense you chose to go after Davis. That's fine. Davis is still a MUCH better defensive player than Durant will ever be. I'm not sure why you would even argue the point when it just further shows that KD is by no means a lock pick at this point.

see that's just it. While Durant is not a good defender by any means, he still far eclipses AD and Towns in defensive rating... just because those two can block shots, doesn't mean they are great defenders. If they are not groundbreaking defenders, which they are not, not even close, they are not the rudy gobert alter ego, can they develop an unguardable offensive game to be compared to durant? the answer is no.

spurraider21

01-08-2016, 04:53 PM

see that's just it. While Durant is not a good defender by any means, he still far eclipses AD and Towns in defensive rating... just because those two can block shots, doesn't mean they are great defenders. If they are not groundbreaking defenders, which they are not, not even close, they are not the rudy gobert alter ego, can they develop an unguardable offensive game to be compared to durant? the answer is no.
:lol defensive rating

D-Rating is a function of how good your team defense is. DRPM is a much better individual measure. Durant is 24th among SF's with a rating below 0.5 while Davis is close to 3.5 and is 3rd among PF's (one of whom is KG playing 15 minutes a game, so sample size is an issue).

Easy to cherry pick D-Rating for Davis when he plays alongside poor defenders like Eric Gordon, Ryan Anderson, etc. If you look at the leaders in D-Rating is just a list of players from good team defenses. Guys like Patty Mills, Boris Diaw, Nikola Mirotic, and Kelly Olynyk are among the leaders. Kevin Love is 15th in the league and Tony Parker is 16th :lmao

LkrFan

01-08-2016, 05:06 PM

I love KAT. He was the player I was disappointed in missing out on, not Oak or even Porzingis (after we saw his potential) that being said he is not abvetter prospect than Anthony Davis imho but he is definitely better than any since Davis and inbetween LeBron and Davis ...maybe durant also should be in that convo ...

Offensively he's better than Davis right now IMHO. I think his defense will improve too.

Raven

01-08-2016, 07:11 PM

:lol defensive rating

D-Rating is a function of how good your team defense is. DRPM is a much better individual measure. Durant is 24th among SF's with a rating below 0.5 while Davis is close to 3.5 and is 3rd among PF's (one of whom is KG playing 15 minutes a game, so sample size is an issue).

Easy to cherry pick D-Rating for Davis when he plays alongside poor defenders like Eric Gordon, Ryan Anderson, etc. If you look at the leaders in D-Rating is just a list of players from good team defenses. Guys like Patty Mills, Boris Diaw, Nikola Mirotic, and Kelly Olynyk are among the leaders. Kevin Love is 15th in the league and Tony Parker is 16th :lmao
so your point is that defensive rating is a bad stat because it tells how the team defense is more than how the player is but drpm is better despite you not knowing what exactly it calculates... hm

DMC

01-08-2016, 07:34 PM

Killakobe81

01-08-2016, 07:36 PM

Raven

01-08-2016, 07:42 PM

Defensive rating lol

It's the best statistic for defense, no question about it.

TDMVPDPOY

01-08-2016, 07:43 PM

davis, durant, KAT

i still take davis over durant....what has durant achieve so far besides a mvp and some wcf title? still a beta cuck maid

davis is surrounded by shit, wait till he actually has a team around him...

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 07:50 PM

Davis in on contract 2 and he's not been dominant yet. When is that nigga going to be dominant, when he's 30?

Sarcasm?

He's putting up 23.5, 11.1, and 2.6 blocks per game with a PER close to 25.

He's 22. The fuck do you want from him? He's supposed to be winning championships as a 22 year old on a shit team?

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 07:51 PM

It's the best statistic for defense, no question about it.

Man, it's just great when people make it apparent that they have no clue what they're talking about. Thanks Raven. :tu

Raven

01-08-2016, 07:54 PM

Man, it's just great when people make it apparent that they have no clue what they're talking about. Thanks Raven. :tu
just to make it clear, drpm is not a pure statistic it's a weighted calculation and therefore doesn't tell facts. It is very accurate, but is not in the same league.

DMC

01-08-2016, 07:56 PM

Sarcasm?

He's putting up 23.5, 11.1, and 2.6 blocks per game with a PER close to 25.

He's 22. The fuck do you want from him? He's supposed to be winning championships as a 22 year old on a shit team?

He's a good player. He's not dominant. If he was dominant he'd not be getting his shit pushed in by the Mav's bench.

The league is so fucking diluted now that any player who can score double digits and get rebounds is considered "dominant" even if they can't lead their team to the fucking team bus, much less a win.

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 07:57 PM

just to make it clear, drpm is not a pure statistic it's a weighted calculation and therefore doesn't tell facts. It is very accurate, but is not in the same league.

And just to be even more clear, attempting to use a single statistic as a tell-all about someone's prowess on either side of the ball is a sign that you don't know how to use or interpret statistics.

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 07:58 PM

He's a good player. He's not dominant. If he was dominant he'd not be getting his shit pushed in by the Mav's bench.

The league is so fucking diluted now that any player who can score double digits and get rebounds is considered "dominant" even if they can't lead their team to the fucking team bus, much less a win.

Can you name the dominant 22 year olds in NBA history? It's a pretty short list, especially those on bad teams/franchises.

Raven

01-08-2016, 08:01 PM

And just to be even more clear, attempting to use a single statistic as a tell-all about someone's prowess on either side of the ball is a sign that you don't know how to use or interpret statistics.
i don't remember saying i use a single statistic and spare me the teachings, i mean you thought belinelli was a decent defender...

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 08:30 PM

i don't remember saying i use a single statistic

Except, you know, the part where you used DRTG and only DRTG to formulate an argument for why KD is a superior defender to AD and KAT. Good lord man, do you even read what you post?

and spare me the teachings, i mean you thought belinelli was a decent defender...

Please show me where I said that. I said Beli gave a lot of EFFORT on defense. The dude still got lit up like Christmas tree but I preferred that to someone who just went through the motions and got torched.

Again, you've gotta put words in someone else's mouth to make your argument more convincing. :lol

baseline bum

01-08-2016, 08:40 PM

If you are saying they are all in the same draft class and same age as rookies based on college and potential I would agree with Raven (shocker) Durant has a good case. Remember Davis wasnt that great on offense in college and neither was KAT. But if you project continued growth for both Davis and KAT as bigs you can definitely make a case for those two guys. Based on what we know today Durant has the edge but I really do like Davis and Towns.

Davis was just held back offensively by that Kentucky team. If you followed him in high school his offensive game in the NBA would come as no surprise. I knew he was going to be a way better pro than college player.

Raven

01-08-2016, 09:07 PM

Except, you know, the part where you used DRTG and only DRTG to formulate an argument for why KD is a superior defender to AD and KAT. Good lord man, do you even read what you post?

Please show me where I said that. I said Beli gave a lot of EFFORT on defense. The dude still got lit up like Christmas tree but I preferred that to someone who just went through the motions and got torched.

Again, you've gotta put words in someone else's mouth to make your argument more convincing. :lol

since, once again, you clearly don't know what you're talking about, i suggest you read the message again.

see that's just it. While Durant is not a good defender by any means, he still far eclipses AD and Towns in defensive rating... just because those two can block shots, doesn't mean they are great defenders. If they are not groundbreaking defenders, which they are not, not even close, they are not the rudy gobert alter ego, can they develop an unguardable offensive game to be compared to durant? the answer is no.

Cry Havoc

01-08-2016, 09:11 PM

i don't remember saying i use a single statistic

While Durant is not a good defender by any means, he still far eclipses AD and Towns in defensive rating...

:lmao Jesus Christ man. :lmao

Kidd K

01-08-2016, 09:11 PM

Interesting. Gonna have to check out some T-Wolves league pass to check out his game. Nice to hear about a new big man doing really well for a change.

Raven

01-08-2016, 09:14 PM

:lmao Jesus Christ man. :lmao

are you fucking retarded? :lmao

DMC

01-08-2016, 10:03 PM

Can you name the dominant 22 year olds in NBA history? It's a pretty short list, especially those on bad teams/franchises.

Red herring. Either he's dominant or he's not.

DMC

01-08-2016, 10:05 PM

:lmao Jesus Christ man. :lmao
You're reaching. He comments on DTRG after saying Durant isn't a good defender. That doesn't mean he's using only that to determine whether or not Durant is better than anyone else other than that stat.

Chinook

01-08-2016, 11:37 PM

DRtg is like the worst stat ever unless you're comparing bigs to bigs. Even then, it's not great, but that stat doesn't really capture individual defense at all. I'm not going to speculate on having KD, Towns and Davis as 19-year-olds in the same draft, but I will say that I like Towns a lot more than Davis at this point. AD seems like his potential is capped at being the Robinson/Garnett of this upcoming era. He'll be a HoFer and may back into a title or two later. But he'll be a career underachiever whose fans make excuses for him not maximizing his gifts and turning them into rings. Towns can be the Duncan of the next era. Obviously their talents are different, but I really like KAT's intangibles. Dude looks like he's going to be a LMA on offense and a Noel on defense. We'll see if he can get it done with Minny, but he looks to me like a future multiple fMVP.

Thread

01-08-2016, 11:39 PM

Chinook

01-08-2016, 11:42 PM

He'd have to crave cock like dum-dum.

Interesting take from someone who's been obsessed with Duncan's "bag" for years.

Thread

01-09-2016, 12:05 AM

Interesting take from someone who's been obsessed with Duncan's "bag" for years.

When you let a semi retired squirt like Battier shade ya---you deserve everything you get.

apalisoc_9

01-09-2016, 12:40 AM

Jesus..when are people going to stop using drtg..i swear to God it is the most missued stats of all time and I say that knowing kawhi ks beasting at drtg.

apalisoc_9

01-09-2016, 12:43 AM

The only thing stopping towns now is a bad team. The wolves have a the biggest player since 2011 leonard who is going to be even more impactful next year.

Ive repeadly called Davis a potential top 5 player in the league but Towns has the tools be even better. Hes a very impactful player.

spurraider21

01-09-2016, 01:01 AM

so your point is that defensive rating is a bad stat because it tells how the team defense is more than how the player is but drpm is better despite you not knowing what exactly it calculates... hm
Defensive rating is a decent team stat. Straightforward. It's a horrible stat to evaluate individual defense. Guys like Mills, diaw, Parker, and Kevin love have high defensive ratings because they happen to be on good defensive teams. Carlos Boozer was notorious for having elite defensive ratings in Chicago despite being one of the worst individual defenders in the game. It's like taking a teams FG% and using that to call one of the players an efficient shooter.

Defensive rating is biased towards players that are surrounded with other good defensive players. On the other hand, RPM is a metric that is specifically designed to exclude contributions of other players.

SpursIndonesia

01-09-2016, 01:04 AM

KAT has great potential and a very good player already, but in this draft, the kinda player that has transcendent superstar player level of ceiling is PorzinGOD IMHO. Guy has solid fundamental, yet all the combination of great physical tool, sense of the game, basketball IQ, and soft shooting touch that can propel him into GOAT level player if he is willing to work hard in realizing those potentials.

spurraider21

01-09-2016, 01:05 AM

Jesus..when are people going to stop using drtg..i swear to God it is the most missued stats of all time and I say that knowing kawhi ks beasting at drtg.
Drtg is a reasonable and common team stat, usually just called defensive efficiency in that context. But it's really outdated as an individual stat

Kawhitstorm

01-09-2016, 02:02 PM

Defensive rating is a decent team stat. Straightforward. It's a horrible stat to evaluate individual defense. Guys like Mills, diaw, Parker, and Kevin love have high defensive ratings because they happen to be on good defensive teams. Carlos Boozer was notorious for having elite defensive ratings in Chicago despite being one of the worst individual defenders in the game. It's like taking a teams FG% and using that to call one of the players an efficient shooter.

Defensive rating is biased towards players that are surrounded with other good defensive players. On the other hand, RPM is a metric that is specifically designed to exclude contributions of other players.

DRtg is like the worst stat ever unless you're comparing bigs to bigs. Even then, it's not great, but that stat doesn't really capture individual defense at all. I'm not going to speculate on having KD, Towns and Davis as 19-year-olds in the same draft, but I will say that I like Towns a lot more than Davis at this point. AD seems like his potential is capped at being the Robinson/Garnett of this upcoming era. He'll be a HoFer and may back into a title or two later. But he'll be a career underachiever whose fans make excuses for him not maximizing his gifts and turning them into rings. Towns can be the Duncan of the next era. Obviously their talents are different, but I really like KAT's intangibles. Dude looks like he's going to be a LMA on offense and a Noel on defense. We'll see if he can get it done with Minny, but he looks to me like a future multiple fMVP.

DRtg is actually most accurate when comparing TEAMMATES. For example, Porker has the worst rating on the Spurs.:lol

Kawhitstorm

01-09-2016, 02:06 PM

I love KAT. He was the player I was disappointed in missing out on, not Oak or even Porzingis (after we saw his potential) that being said he is not abvetter prospect than Anthony Davis imho but he is definitely better than any since Davis and inbetween LeBron and Davis ...maybe durant also should be in that convo ...

Y'all are forgetting about Blake, dude was 22/12/4 as a rookie. You could argue he wasn't a true rookie but he was a beast. As far as perimeter players, Rose/Kyrie were already top 10 guards as rookies.

Chinook

01-09-2016, 02:21 PM

DRtg is actually most accurate when comparing TEAMMATES. For example, Porker has the worst rating on the Spurs.:lol

No.

DPG21920

01-09-2016, 02:25 PM

He'd have to crave cock like dum-dum.

Kobe has a gay sex tape, so we have proof. Where is the proof on Duncan? Either you lodge proof or you stand down. We don't do gossip.

Raven

01-09-2016, 02:47 PM

Defensive rating is a decent team stat. Straightforward. It's a horrible stat to evaluate individual defense. Guys like Mills, diaw, Parker, and Kevin love have high defensive ratings because they happen to be on good defensive teams. Carlos Boozer was notorious for having elite defensive ratings in Chicago despite being one of the worst individual defenders in the game. It's like taking a teams FG% and using that to call one of the players an efficient shooter.

Defensive rating is biased towards players that are surrounded with other good defensive players. On the other hand, RPM is a metric that is specifically designed to exclude contributions of other players.
you clearly don't understand what being bias means, if there is anything that is biased are espn's ratings, just check how weird their numbers are and how you can just tell that based on them you can tell that guards suck at D and excel at O, which is fucking retarded. defensive rating is as unbiased as a statistic can get for d, the problem is when people don't know how to use it and form theories and projections with it. That is why you have espn's statistics, but they are not pure and therefore they are less responsive to new trends and changes. That's also the reason why people hate +-, which to me is funny, because someone who hates +-, just means that he doesn't understand what +- tells..

spurraider21

01-09-2016, 03:12 PM

you clearly don't understand what being bias means, if there is anything that is biased are espn's ratings, just check how weird their numbers are and how you can just tell that based on them you can tell that guards suck at D and excel at O, which is fucking retarded. defensive rating is as unbiased as a statistic can get for d, the problem is when people don't know how to use it and form theories and projections with it. That is why you have espn's statistics, but they are not pure and therefore they are less responsive to new trends and changes. That's also the reason why people hate +-, which to me is funny, because someone who hates +-, just means that he doesn't understand what +- tells..
Drtg as an individual stat favors players who are surrounded by other good defenders. Using it as a raw stat to compare Durant/Towns/Davis is just dumb

Kawhitstorm

01-09-2016, 03:18 PM

No.

Yes.

Raven

01-09-2016, 03:19 PM

Drtg as an individual stat favors players who are surrounded by other good defenders. Using it as a raw stat to compare Durant/Towns/Davis is just dumb
true, in a way, but think about what we were discussing about . The discussion was that if they can't eclipse him in defensive rating, how can you say that they are groundbreaking defenders? And if you can't, why would you take either of them ahead of a truly generational offensive player? Makes no sense to me.

spurraider21

01-09-2016, 03:24 PM

true, in a way, but think about what we were discussing about . The discussion was that if they can't eclipse him in defensive rating, how can you say that they are groundbreaking defenders? And if you can't, why would you take either of them ahead of a truly generational offensive player? Makes no sense to me.
There are defensive metrics outside of drtg which show Davis is a much better defender than those guys. Drtg is close to useless in this conversation, so it was stupid to bring that up to support a stance and say shit like "Davis isn't even a decent defender"

Raven

01-09-2016, 03:31 PM

There are defensive metrics outside of drtg which show Davis is a much better defender than those guys. Drtg is close to useless in this conversation, so it was stupid to bring that up to support a stance and say shit like "Davis isn't even a decent defender"
well any defensive metric that is saying that anthony davis is a good defender this year, needs to check back itself because he has been awful and pathetic.

spurraider21

01-09-2016, 03:48 PM

well any defensive metric that is saying that anthony davis is a good defender this year, needs to check back itself because he has been awful and pathetic.
Why, because you say so? The eye test?

Raven

01-09-2016, 03:49 PM

Why, because you say so? The eye test?

you think he was good?

spurraider21

01-09-2016, 03:55 PM

you think he was good?
His defense gets overblown as some all time generational thing, but yeah he's a good defender on a bad defensive team

Raven

01-09-2016, 04:05 PM

His defense gets overblown as some all time generational thing, but yeah he's a good defender on a bad defensive team

So what is durant?

spurraider21

01-09-2016, 04:26 PM

So what is durant?
Fairly average. His length makes him a presence but he usually isn't dialed in

Raven

01-09-2016, 04:38 PM

Fairly average. His length makes him a presence but he usually isn't dialed in

And his team is..?

Chinook

01-09-2016, 04:45 PM

Yes.

It's clear you don't know what you're talking about. Bowen was tied with Barry and Udrih for worst DRtg in 2005. It is simply team DRtg with blocks, steals and rebounds added in. It says nothing about individual defense.

Kawhitstorm

01-09-2016, 05:12 PM

It's clear you don't know what you're talking about. Bowen was tied with Barry and Udrih for worst DRtg in 2005. It is simply team DRtg with blocks, steals and rebounds added in. It says nothing about individual defense.

Bruh, Bowen was mostly on the floor against elite scorers while Beno/Barry played against 2nd & 3rd stringers. Patty is worse than Tony on defense but he has a better DRtg b/c he plays against backups. Barry/Bowen basically averaged the same amount of blocks/rebounds/steals per 100 possessions so those stats weren't a factor.

Bottom line: Tony is the worst defender amongst the starters & Patty is the worst defender amongst the rest of the rotation players.

Anyone not named Daryl Morey knows you need more than pure analytics to judge a player.

Chinook

01-09-2016, 06:19 PM

Bruh, Bowen was mostly on the floor against elite scorers while Beno/Barry played against 2nd & 3rd stringers. Patty is worse than Tony on defense but he has a better DRtg b/c he plays against backups.

No. Bowen had a bad DRtg because that stat is agnostic to man defense. Leonard and Green go up against the best offensive players to, and they have no issue posting good DRtgs. Boozer was routinely roasted by opposing PFs and still carried an elite DRtg.

Barry/Bowen basically averaged the same amount of blocks/rebounds/steals per 100 possessions so those stats weren't a factor.

Yeah, that's why they have the same DRtg. I don't get why you even brought that up since that was exactly my point.

Bottom line: Tony is the worst defender amongst the starters & Patty is the worst defender amongst the rest of the rotation players.

Bottom line is that you didn't know what DRtg was and tried to use it to take a shot at Parker. Anyone with eyes can tell Tony is one of the weakest defenders on the team (though he's not as abysmal as he used to be). Saying so is a solid if boring take. But it's completely false that DRtg is useful for showing which teammates play the best defense.

Anyone not named Daryl Morey knows you need more than pure analytics to judge a player.

Another throwaway line. We all know that, but that has nothing to do with the conversation.

Kawhitstorm

01-09-2016, 07:07 PM

No. Bowen had a bad DRtg because that stat is agnostic to man defense. Leonard and Green go up against the best offensive players to, and they have no issue posting good DRtgs. Boozer was routinely roasted by opposing PFs and still carried an elite DRtg.

Noah/Taj had a BETTER DRtg than than Boozer despite Boozer being BENCHED in the 4th quarter so he DOESN'T get roasted. Teams have their best lineups & pick on players in the 4th quarter. If you are going to claim he had a better DRtg than guys like Deng, well Duh! Boozer grabbed way more defensive rebounds & Deng actually played in the 4th quarter.

Yeah, that's why they have the same DRtg. I don't get why you even brought that up since that was exactly my point.

Yeah b/c the algorithm is solely based on defensive rebounds, steals & blocks. Even then defensive rebounds, steals, blocks should be valued b/c they are part of what constitute defensive stops so I don't see what's wrong with including them in the algorithm.

Just b/c two teammates (Barry/Bowen) that play in the same position have EXACTLY the same rebounds/steals/blocks & end up w/ the same DRtg you can't conclude it's b/c they had the same stats while ignoring the rest of the factors.

Bottom line is that you didn't know what DRtg was and tried to use it to take a shot at Parker. Anyone with eyes can tell Tony is one of the weakest defenders on the team (though he's not as abysmal as he used to be). Saying so is a solid if boring take. But it's completely false that DRtg is useful for showing which teammates play the best defense.

I've been clowing folks using the Morey Vision to claim Whiteside is a great defender based on his DRtg. It's common knowledge that DRtgs favor big men b/c they can actually anchor a defense Sherlock.

Raven

01-09-2016, 07:26 PM

Noah/Taj had a BETTER DRtg than than Boozer despite Boozer being BENCHED in the 4th quarter so he DOESN'T get roasted. Teams have their best lineups & pick on players in the 4th quarter. If you are going to claim he had a better DRtg than guys like Deng, well Duh! Boozer grabbed way more defensive rebounds & Deng actually played in the 4th quarter.

Yeah b/c the algorithm is solely based on defensive rebounds, steals & blocks. Even then defensive rebounds, steals, blocks should be valued b/c they are part of what constitute defensive stops so I don't see what's wrong with including them in the algorithm.

Just b/c two teammates (Barry/Bowen) that play in the same position have EXACTLY the same rebounds/steals/blocks & end up w/ the same DRtg you can't conclude it's b/c they had the same stats while ignoring the rest of the factors.

I've been clowing folks using the Morey Vision to claim Whiteside is a great defender based on his DRtg. It's common knowledge that DRtgs favor big men b/c they can actually anchor a defense Sherlock.
not sure what you're talking about

Kawhitstorm

01-09-2016, 07:50 PM

[/B]not sure what you're talking about

To anchor a defense you have to protect the rim & grab rebounds, a defensive possession doesn't end until the defense secures the rebound. Blocks/rebounds are factored in DRtg b/c of that reason & that's why big men are know as defensive anchors. But just b/c someone gets a lot of weakside blocks & chases rebounds like Whiteside it doesn't make them an elite OVERALL defender b/c there is this thing called PnR defense. Whiteside is an elite PAINT defender b/c he's at best mediocre outside of the paint.

Roy Hibbert: elite rim protector, okay rebounder, terrible outside of the paint but once was a defensive anchor before he got exposed by PnR offenses.

DRtgs favor bigs but it SHOULD b/c rebounding/rim protection ARE a vital part of the defense & it's the bigs that provide it.

If Draymond was a mediocre rebounder/rim protector then he wouldn't have been able to anchor a defense no matter his tenacity/IQ.

Point guards can't anchor a defense b/c all it takes is a screen to take them out of a play & they don't end the possession by grabbing the defensive rebounds nor do they protect the rim.

Spurtacular

04-06-2016, 02:32 AM