shaq undermines,duncan?

[navarat]

shaq undermines duncan,

Hey guys this my first post on forum, anyway did anyone see shaq on stephen A.'s quite freakingly? when he was asked by stephen ass about duncan, shaq almost ignorantly said "yeah I'd say he's a great player" and went on to say, aside from him, if a team to pick a player to start to franchise with, it would be Amare. and he said He's only good big man left in league, he also said that not coming Miami is Finley loss,not his.
I don't think shaq gives enough respect to duncan, and thinks Amare is best big man after. I think it's funny, what do you guys think. :blah

[Spurminator]

It's not that Shaq is not giving respect, he's just very good at giving soundbytes. He has a WWE personality.

The problem is when his lapdogs like SAS echo those sentiments as though they are fact.

[ZStomp]

I don't care what Shaq, SAS, or anyone in the media has to say abuot the Spurs. Whether it's good or bad....

[nkdlunch]

See, Amare is Shaq's boy and likes to party w/him. Duncan could care less about hanging out or partying w/Snack. Same w/SAS.

In other words, WGAF what Shaq thinks

[z0sa]

LOL, how can shaq say its finley's loss not his, when he comes to the defending champs? How about shaq closes his mouth for the first time in his career? He's a little butthurt over Finley choosing duncan over him methinks

[JMarkJohns]

Duncan is great, but he's got five great years left.
Amare hasn't even peaked, so barring injury, 10 years isn't unreasonable.

That is why Shaq would choose Amare, not because they are boys or party hardy :rolleyes

Even as early as Amare's rookie year, Shaq claimed Stoudemire was the future of this League. Have you seen anything in the 2-1/2 seasons Amare's played that would discredit that?

[Spurminator]

It's not necessarily what we've seen as what we haven't seen (defensive ability of any sort).

But I wouldn't put it past him to develop in that area.

[picnroll]

Please God don't let Shaq be a TV sports analyst when his playing days are over.

[nkdlunch]

:lol after his career is over Shaq will be so fat that they'd be forced to use WideScreen cameras.

[JMarkJohns]

I'll agree to an extent, but 23-year olds rarely play like this kid does. I think he tries to play the best defense he can, without risking silly fouls. He does the Suns no good if he's only on the court for 30 minutes a game like Yao. He blocks the shots he can and muscles up when in position. I think he's too smart to make something when it's not there as the Suns have not had the luxery of a deep frontcourt ever in his time as a Sun. Let's see how he works this year, now that there's some actual depth.

For the next 10 years, Amare or LeBron or Wade?

Since 90% of the NBA Champions have been built around a dominant big man, Amare looks like the winner to me.

[navarat]

I think Amare is a good player,specialy in the offence, so as K.g. but it remains to be seen if any of those guys can carry a team to title. if anyone picking amare or any other player ahead of duncan now, would be because, they envy what duncan has or beign. theres alot of people in this league who try hide the truth.

[Tom_Foolery]

Shaq very much respects Duncan.

I've never ever heard Shaq trash-talk Duncan on the court or in the media. Shaq trashes everyone he has no respect for(Sac "Queens", Ostertag, others), but I've never heard Shaq badmouth Duncan.

Keep in mind that Miami really thought they were going to get Fin and when Fin decided to go with the Spurs, I think Shaq was a little miffed and rather than disrespect Duncan he probably would rather give more respect to another player.

Don't look too much into it. Shaq respects Duncan so much that Shaq won't even say anything about Duncan because he knows what Duncan is capable of doing.

[Spurminator]

For the next 10 years, Amare or LeBron or Wade?

On the court? Probably Amare, but it's close.

However, if I'm an owner, LeBron is a gold mine.

[JMarkJohns]

OK, 3/4 year's with Duncan or 8/10 years with Amare.

You can choose one. Who is it?

Obviously, Duncan is the best player in the League. But his time is running out while Amare's is just gettin' going. It's almost like picking the Late 80's Kareem or Hakeem. One was All-Time great, the other getting there, but the All-Timer was getting older while the potential All-Timer was just gettin' going.

For next year and prolly the year after, it's Duncan. For every year thereafter, I think it's Amare.

[JMarkJohns]

On the court? Probably Amare, but it's close.

However, if I'm an owner, LeBron is a gold mine.

Agreed. I've agrued that this pick could depend on the second selection. If I could be guaranteed a low-post big as my second choice, then I'd be willing to pick LeBron for the reasons you've mentioned. He's great, he's famous and I think he transcends all bounds. So long as Thirst McThirst stays at his crib...

[kskonn]

I agree with both statements. If I could pick a player as they are today I would pick Amare. He seems to want to learn and even spent time working with duncan at the games to work on his low post play.And yea he is younger and will be around longer. If I could pick a player now based on their current ability without considering how long they could play, I would pick Duncan. I think Duncan has more ability to make the, team better. Amare needs Nash, the Spurs need Duncan big difference.

[Spurminator]

I don't think Duncan's so old that you don't still go with him. He's a sure thing. With Amare, yeah maybe he's the best player in the NBA in 5 years, but maybe he's not. Maybe he's Shawn Kemp. Maybe he's Brad Daugherty.

Shaq vs. Amare? Yeah, Amare. But Duncan is a better bet to win in the next 3-5 years than Amare is to win in years 6-10, simply because of how uncertain the future is.

[navarat]

but I wonder how he will be without a nash type? pretty good! but will it be enough?

[JMarkJohns]

I just don't think there's any comparison between those you named and Amare. He's Hakeem incarnate. He's essentually just played out his college years at the pro level and dominated. He's got a few areas to improve, but so far, every weakness he's had he's worked on drastically.

As I said, Duncan is the better player. He could be the better player for as long as four more years. But he's getting up there in years. Do you really think a 34/35 year old Duncan will be better than a 27/28 year old Amare?

At his peak, I see MVP's, 30points, 12rebounds per averages and at least 1 Title, though at this point, I'm no longer certain that will be with Phoenix.

[FromWayDowntown]

Obviously, Duncan is the best player in the League. But his time is running out while Amare's is just gettin' going. It's almost like picking the Late 80's Kareem or Hakeem. One was All-Time great, the other getting there, but the All-Timer was getting older while the potential All-Timer was just gettin' going.

The Kareem/Hakeem thing is utter b.s.

In the late 80's, Kareem was in his late 30's while Hakeem was in his late 20's. There was a 10 year difference between those two, and one had gone through a full career that spanned all of 2 decades while the other was just getting started.

In 2005, Duncan is what 28? Amare is 23. There's 5 years of difference. If Amare has 10 years of greatness in front of him, then it should be fair to assume that Tim has at least 5 more years in front of him. That's a full half of Amare's "arc of greatness." It's not as if Tim's on his last legs and is struggling to keep up with younger players these days.

It's not about numbers, either. If Amare played in the Spurs system, I seriously doubt that he'd have the type of scoring numbers that he rolled up in Phoenix last season. And he certainly is nowhere near the rebounder or defensive force that Duncan is. Amare is a wonderful talent and should be a perrenial all-star, but I don't know that there's a clear cut case that he's a better choice over the next 5 years or so.

I don't care what Shaq says about anything when he's talking to SAS. That's all showbiz.

[JMarkJohns]

Duncan is not 28... He'll be 30 come playoff time.

You can not like the comparison, but the point remains the same.

Choose Hakeem vs. Shaq if you'd like. It's not the details, it's the notion.

[navarat]

I Love the Spurs! I Live in california,and I love the riverwalk! I never been there!!!
Ha..ha..ha!!!

[FromWayDowntown]

Yeah, Duncan will probably retire before Amare. If that's the point upon which you decide to choose Amare over Duncan, so be it.

But comparing Duncan after 8 years to Amare after what 3 years isn't the same as comparing Kareem after 15-16 years to Hakeem after 3-4 or comparing Hakeem after 10-12 years with Shaq after 3-4.

[JMarkJohns]

And so help me... I believe I said Duncan up to the next four seasons, Amare after that.

For me, however, I see Amare surpassing Duncan within three years tops.

[Dre_7]

At his peak, I see MVP's, 30points, 12rebounds per averages and at least 1 Title, though at this point, I'm no longer certain that will be with Phoenix.

Yeah, in a few years he will come to SA to replace the retiring Tim Duncan. :lol

[JMarkJohns]

Yeah, Duncan will probably retire before Amare. If that's the point upon which you decide to choose Amare over Duncan, so be it.

But comparing Duncan after 8 years to Amare after what 3 years isn't the same as comparing Kareem after 15-16 years to Hakeem after 3-4 or comparing Hakeem after 10-12 years with Shaq after 3-4.

Are you playing coy on purpose, or are you really this dense?

Duncan played four years off college ball and is entering his ninth year in the League. That's 12 seasons.

Amare's entering his fourth overall season. That's a 12-3 advantage for Duncan. Amare is supposed to be entering his senior year of college, afterall.

You can have Duncan for as long as he last, or Amare for as long as he lasts from this point forward.

Starting the year, Duncan 29, Amare 23...

[2centsworth]

And so help me... I believe I said Duncan up to the next four seasons, Amare after that.

For me, however, I see Amare surpassing Duncan within three years tops.

Maybe so, because Amare is a damn good player. Plus, I don't think Amare is part of the Snaq SAS crowd.

[lotr1trekkie]

Amare's improvement last season was primarily due to Nash. When Nash goes[before Duncan] can he dominate like TD does regardless of who he is playing with[ Olympic team excluded]. I doubt it! Tim has won 3 with totally different teammates----he is a rare player.

Shaq still has to prove to me he can win without Kobe. The East will be tougher this year for the Heat and the Spurs still won more games in the West with TM missing 16 games. Tim is king and Shaq knows it!

[JMarkJohns]

This is absolutely rediculous. Did you know that in his 50 game, second season Amare jumped 7 ppg without Nash?

It wasn't all Nash. In fact, Nash looked better because of Amare. They both needed each other, but to credit Nash alone for Amare's improvement is laughable.

[JMarkJohns]

I doubt it! Tim has won 3 with totally different teammates----he is a rare player.

No he hasn't. Not true at all... Maybe a few different role players, but the stars around him were pretty consistant fromm 1 to 2 and from 2 to 3.

[FromWayDowntown]

Are you playing coy on purpose, or are you really this dense?

Duncan played four years off college ball and is entering his ninth year in the League. That's 12 seasons.

Amare's entering his fourth overall season. That's a 12-3 advantage for Duncan. Amare is supposed to be entering his senior year of college, afterall.

You can have Duncan for as long as he last, or Amare for as long as he lasts from this point forward.

Starting the year, Duncan 29, Amare 23...

I'm neither being coy nor dense. I'm saying that comparing Duncan/Amare to either Kareem/Hakeem in the late 80's or to Hakeem/Shaq in the late 90's are both inapt comparisons. The age difference is the telling factor for me. If the question is which player you want going forward, I'm saying that the continued excellence from Duncan has much more time left to run at this moment than Kareem did in the late 80's or Hakeem did in the late 90's.

It's much more like asking (in, say, 1992) if you'd rather have Hakeem after 8 years or David Robinson after 3.

[JMarkJohns]

Fine... so you got the point. One older great player for a few years or one younger great player for prolly double the years.

Thanks for putting the proper detail on my analogy.

[SWC Bonfire]

You people are hinging on every word that comes out of SHAQUILLE O'NEAL'S mouth, for God's sake.

This is coming from the idiot who thinks he's "like the Pythagorean Theorem, I can't be solved." :lol

[kskonn]

No he hasn't. Not true at all... Maybe a few different role players, but the stars around him were pretty consistant fromm 1 to 2 and from 2 to 3.


That is not true, The teams from Championship 1 to championship 2 were totally different. I think that from 2-3 they were very similiar but 1-2 were nothing alike, except for D-rob and he was no longer a Star.

[FromWayDowntown]

But in your analogy, going back in time, I'd take Hakeem over David, and I suspect most rational, objective basketball fans would too. I'm a homer, but I'm not stupid and Hakeem single-handedly carried teams to titles after 1992.

I actually think that the Hakeem: David::Tim:Amare analogy works on so many levels to make it particularly apt to this comparison. Tim is the same steady force that Hakeem was, capable of leading teams to greatness, but not a statistical demon. David and Amare are both physical freaks who put up great numbers, but haven't been able to carry teams over the top despite the great numbers.

[Solid D]

Losing Robert Horry to the Spurs wasn't Shaq's loss either. :hat

Rob 1-1
Shaq 0-2

[JMarkJohns]

But in your analogy, going back in time, I'd take Hakeem over David, and I suspect most rational, objective basketball fans would too. I'm a homer, but I'm not stupid and Hakeem single-handedly carried teams to titles after 1992.

I actually think that the Hakeem: David::Tim:Amare analogy works on so many levels to make it particularly apt to this comparison. Tim is the same steady force that Hakeem was, capable of leading teams to greatness, but not a statistical demon. David and Amare are both physical freaks who put up great numbers, but haven't been able to carry teams over the top despite the great numbers.

Whatever. I still think the Hakeem/Shaq works best, not because of years of play, but because Hakeem was in his peek at the time Shaq was just getting to his.

Same thing here. For the next few years, it was Hakeem. For the next decade, it was Shaq.

[JMarkJohns]

That is not true, The teams from Championship 1 to championship 2 were totally different. I think that from 2-3 they were very similiar but 1-2 were nothing alike, except for D-rob and he was no longer a Star.

You had David Robsinson and Time Duncan for each. Plus Malik Rose and Steve Kerr. Granted it's not identical, but Duncan and Robinson was the main force that propelled the Spurs and they were on it for both 1 and 2.

Your 2 and 3 teams were very, very similer.

[Spurminator]

Robinson 1999 and Robinson 2003 were the same player in name only.

[Kori Ellis]

It's not such a bad thing for Shaq to say that he'd take Amare to start a franchise with. As some already mentioned here, age is a huge factor if you are talking about starting a team now. I would likely take either Amare or LeBron over Duncan. So does that make me a Duncan hater too?

[T Park]

You had David Robsinson and Time Duncan for each. Plus Malik Rose and Steve Kerr. Granted it's not identical, but Duncan and Robinson was the main force that propelled the Spurs and they were on it for both 1 and 2.

Your 2 and 3 teams were very, very similer.

The Spurs of 05 had alot more versatility and scoring punch.

in 03 you brought Manu, Rose, and Claxton/Kerr

Outside of that, that was it.

This year, Barry, Devin Brown, Glenn Robinson, Rasho Nesterovic, Beno Udrih


just alot more depth.

The 03 and 05 teams are way way way different.


If Amare doesnt blow up like Shawn Kemp, or become brittle like Daugherty, or a drug head like Tarpley, he'll top 5 of all time.

[Vashner]

Man I had Tpark off my shit list... But picking Amare over Duncan..

I kinda wanted to not call him a bandwagoneer again... .. sigh..

(humor post **)

[2centsworth]

It's not such a bad thing for Shaq to say that he'd take Amare to start a franchise with. As some already mentioned here, age is a huge factor if you are talking about starting a team now. I would likely take either Amare or LeBron over Duncan. So does that make me a Duncan hater too?
I would take the '05 playoff additon of amare over the '05 pa of tim. However, the '03 version of tim I would take over everyone.

[Spurminator]

But the 05 Playoff Edition of Amare Stoudemire would have given up 50 ppg to Amare Stoudemire.

Although I guess he would have matched that...

My head hurts now.

[TOP-CHERRY]

Hey guys this my first post on forum
Welcome.

It's not that Shaq is not giving respect, he's just very good at giving soundbytes. He has a WWE personality.

The problem is when his lapdogs like SAS echo those sentiments as though they are fact.
Bull's eye.

[Solid D]

I like half of Amare. The offensive half. He does rise up occasionally on D, evidenced by his amazing block on Tim at the Rim. In the normal rigors of the game, though, Amare is a Flagman out on the interstate.

[T Park]

But picking Amare over Duncan..



I'd love for you to show me Vashner where I said that.....

Amare plays worse defense than Steve Nash, once again, thats what makes him a top 7 center instead of a current top 5.

[batman2883]

All i have to say is Shaq cant win games on his own he needs another superstar lined up with him. He is very stupid for ever doubting the play of TD, TD is the best PF in the league, at least in my opinion, KG is close behind but never on top. I laughed the year they gave him the MVP it was so ridiculous. Either way if i were to start a Franchise myself today my first player would be TD, secondly i would pick up Tmac....than Iverson......thats all i would want those three players and im good.

[JMarkJohns]

lol@ taking amare's 1 dimensional ass over duncan. i'll go out on a limb and say a 40 year old duncan will still be owning his down syndrome lookin black ass

Trolling isn't the way to win arguments, effin loser...

You don't deserve to call yourself a Spurs fan.

[JMarkJohns]

The Spurs of 05 had alot more versatility and scoring punch.

in 03 you brought Manu, Rose, and Claxton/Kerr

Outside of that, that was it.

This year, Barry, Devin Brown, Glenn Robinson, Rasho Nesterovic, Beno Udrih


just alot more depth.

The 03 and 05 teams are way way way different.


If Amare doesnt blow up like Shawn Kemp, or become brittle like Daugherty, or a drug head like Tarpley, he'll top 5 of all time.


Like I said, similer in main stays, different in role players. The main stays made your Title chances possible, however, while the role players aided.

[samikeyp]

Fuq Shaq.

[Solid D]

Shaq was dissin' on Eric Dampier in that SAS interview more than on anyone else. Did you see that clip? The Duncan and Finley thing was mild compared to his WNBA comments about Dampier. :rolleyes

[ambchang]

Like I said, similer in main stays, different in role players. The main stays made your Title chances possible, however, while the role players aided.
Who are the two players who won two championships with 11 different teammates again?
That's right, Bill Russell and Tim Duncan.
Also, putting Amare in the same breath as Duncan, Hakeem, Kareem, Robinson, and even Shaq is laughable. Amare has a nice mid range jumper, and he drives to the right and dunks very hard. Granted, those are not easy moves to stop, but his predictability is something that allows the Spurs to beat the Suns. Is it a coincidence that the Spurs outscores the Suns in the fourth quarter in every game they won, while Amare goes off in those same fourth quarters?
Amare has very limited defensive ability, and is offense is quite one-dimensional. Granted, he is an unbelievable talent and has the potential to be an all-time great, much remains to be seen.
To me, Amare is Bob McAdoo with a dunk.

[FromWayDowntown]

In 1999, David averaged 16/10 during the playoffs, and I certainly would agree that he was a force that propelled the Spurs to a title. But in 2003, David averaged more like 8/7 during the playoffs.

I'm not sure how many times in history a center has averaged less than 8 points per game and fewer than 7 rebounds per game (both below his regular season averages) in about 23 minutes per game and still been a "force" that propelled a team to a title.

The 2002-03 Spurs had 1 driving force -- Tim Duncan, who averaged 25/15/5/3.3.

Hmmm. . . . .25/15/5/3.3 or 30/11/1/2 . . . . .

His leadership was always important to the Spurs, but in 2003 David was a bit more like an important role player than a driving force.

[exstatic]

At his peak, I see MVP's, 30points, 12rebounds per averages and at least 1 Title, though at this point, I'm no longer certain that will be with Phoenix.
Take off the rose colored glasses. Amare scored 26 points on a team that TOTALLY dominated on the perimeter, leaving the lane basically empty. His post game is lukewarm at best. His best bet is a jumper, or an allez-oop. We'll see how good he really is this year, without the blanket of shooters to protect him. Expect to see a LOT of ball denial and double and even triple teams. As for the rebounding, that's pie in the sky. He's averaged under 9 a game for his 4 year career, and it's pretty consistant numbers, not an upward trend, although I will give you that there WILL be a lot of missed 3s for him to clean up, if he has the desire. He hasn't shown that in 4 years, though.

My guess for his numbers this year: 22 and 9.

[JMarkJohns]

Take off the rose colored glasses. Amare scored 26 points on a team that TOTALLY dominated on the perimeter, leaving the lane basically empty. His post game is lukewarm at best. His best bet is a jumper, or an allez-oop. We'll see how good he really is this year, without the blanket of shooters to protect him. Expect to see a LOT of ball denial and double and even triple teams. As for the rebounding, that's pie in the sky. He's averaged under 9 a game for his 4 year career, and it's pretty consistant numbers, not an upward trend, although I will give you that there WILL be a lot of missed 3s for him to clean up, if he has the desire. He hasn't shown that in 4 years, though.

My guess for his numbers this year: 22 and 9.

For someone who likes to talk about the Suns as much as you do, it would be nice if you actually followed up on some of my posts in response to your rants.

I'm not wasting my time to retype these posts. If you care to inform yourself so as to stop looking the fool, then by all means, go through my posts and find them.

The Suns made Johnson and Richardson, not the other way around. They have replaced those two with Bell, Jones and House, three 40+% shooters from range and still have Jackson, Nash, Barbosa, Marion as well. Their 3-point shooting will be fine.

If you noticed, my post actually said I don't think those numbers would come as a Sun. I think he leaves with an opt-out clause in a few years once Nash and Marion's contracts are up.

I'm hardly a homer. In fact, I'm the complete opposite. I love the Suns, but am never afraid to expose their flaws and speak of their weaknesses.


Also, putting Amare in the same breath as Duncan, Hakeem, Kareem, Robinson, and even Shaq is laughable.

I never compared players, just situations. Please read to comprehend.

Maybe some of you posts should take the spurs out your ass and realize that simply because you have the best player and are the best team, that the NBA doesn't stop there.

Players do get better, teams improve. All that needs to be said.

[T Park]

because you have the best player and are the best team, that the NBA doesn't stop there.


It doesn't???

Hmm, last I checked world championships are what you mesured yourself in sports.


Phoenix its how many head coaches you can blow through in a 5 year span.


BTW, I wouldnt doubt if the Suns start out like 12-8 or 13-7 that D'Antoni is fired.

1 and a half years, thats the typical lifespan of the elusive Phoenix Suns coach.

[Rubberducky]

shaq undermines duncan,

Hey guys this my first post on forum, anyway did anyone see shaq on stephen A.'s quite freakingly? when he was asked by stephen ass about duncan, shaq almost ignorantly said "yeah I'd say he's a great player" and went on to say, aside from him, if a team to pick a player to start to franchise with, it would be Amare. and he said He's only good big man left in league, he also said that not coming Miami is Finley loss,not his.
I don't think shaq gives enough respect to duncan, and thinks Amare is best big man after. I think it's funny, what do you guys think. :blah
you watch SAS interviewing Shaq? you must have been bored. by the way, welcome. :elephant

[TDMVPDPOY]

cant wait for shaq to choke this season, whats his excuse if he doesnt win a ring or make it to teh finals, yeh thats right blame it on the burger.......WHOSE NEXT?

[Leetonidas]

Duncan is great, but he's got five great years left.
Amare hasn't even peaked, so barring injury, 10 years isn't unreasonable.

That is why Shaq would choose Amare, not because they are boys or party hardy :rolleyes

Even as early as Amare's rookie year, Shaq claimed Stoudemire was the future of this League. Have you seen anything in the 2-1/2 seasons Amare's played that would discredit that?

Yes, Amare sucks pretty fucking bad when Nash isn't around. What did they lose, 5, 6 games in a row?

[FromWayDowntown]

The Suns made Johnson and Richardson, not the other way around. They have replaced those two with Bell, Jones and House, three 40+% shooters from range and still have Jackson, Nash, Barbosa, Marion as well. Their 3-point shooting will be fine.

Fair enough. I'm honestly interested in knowing, though, if you think things don't change to some extent for the Suns by virtue of the apparent decision to play a more normal lineup with Thomas, Stoudemire and Marion together. I mean, part of what made Marion such a tough cover last season was the fact that he was basically playing an offensive power forward and routinely was matched up with PF's who had no chance to keep up with him in transition or off-the-dribble. Move forward one year and Marion, it seems, is moving back to SF, where he'll still be good, but might not be quite as dynamic in creating defensive headaches for opponents (see, generally, 2005 WCF, where Spurs treated Marion like a SF).

I thought that part of what made the Suns so difficult last season was not just their willingness to launch from wherever and their success with that strategy. It was the inability of teams to find a way to defend Marion, Stoudemire, Richardson, and Johnson at the same time. If the Suns play with a more "normal" lineup, I wonder if they'll get the same mismatches when they have to slow it down -- when they can't just launch from distance? It seems to me that two bigs (particularly with undersized 2nd bigs in Grant and Thomas) makes it much easier for teams to double Amare in the post and rotate without creating even worse problems.

I'm honestly curious about how Suns fans see that issue playing out.

[Leetonidas]

^That's true.

I'm not underminding the Suns, because they were a damn good team last year, and Amare is an awesome player, but I mean he's no where close to Tim Duncan and no where close to the best big man in the league. Without Steve Nash I don't even think they make the playoffs this year.

[Money316]

Duncan is great, but he's got five great years left.
Amare hasn't even peaked, so barring injury, 10 years isn't unreasonable.

That is why Shaq would choose Amare, not because they are boys or party hardy :rolleyes

Even as early as Amare's rookie year, Shaq claimed Stoudemire was the future of this League. Have you seen anything in the 2-1/2 seasons Amare's played that would discredit that?

Just curious, but how many more years before we see Amare in a Lakers uniform?

:fro :fro :fro

[FromWayDowntown]

Just curious, but how many more years before we see Amare in a Lakers uniform?

:fro :fro :fro

To be fair, JMarkJohns has repeatedly said that he expects the improvement from Amare whether he's in a Suns uniform or not -- and I think that he expects that Amare will end up somewhere other than Phoenix when Nash and Marion's contracts expire.

[NashtoAmare]

Amare's improvement last season was primarily due to Nash. When Nash goes[before Duncan] can he dominate like TD does regardless of who he is playing with[ Olympic team excluded]. I doubt it! Tim has won 3 with totally different teammates----he is a rare player.

Shaq still has to prove to me he can win without Kobe. The East will be tougher this year for the Heat and the Spurs still won more games in the West with TM missing 16 games. Tim is king and Shaq knows it!

Amare improved with and without Nash.Amare's great jump shot is due to his practicing and always trying to improve himself. Some of Amare's great dunks and improving other skills are due to Nash helping him in many ways.It goes both ways, now there no telling what will happen happen to Amare's game when Nash leaves but i think at the improving rate he's playing he'll play very well with and without Nash

[NashtoAmare]

For all the Spur's fan curious about how suns fan view all these changes here's my take on it :

I'm worried,i will admitt that but who wouldn't be worried if your whole team basically left. It would be like Manu,Tony,Robert,and Bowen just leaving the spurs. All of the suns players that left, left for diffrent reasons but i've learned alot this offseason about the suns and about the players. I learned Joe Johnson is a real jerk he really dosen't care about playing on a winning team he went to the Hawks for god sake..He just cares about the money which is quite sad. I respect the Spurs for 2 reasons and 2 reasons only.
1.All of the players are team first..as much as a hate Bowen and Manu i realize they play together as a team
2.There winners..although i don't like how they win sometimes there winners point blank.
after this being said i can only hope for the best.I hope Amare keeps improving,I hope Steve has a few more years in him,and i hope Marion dosen't fall asleep again in the playoffs.and even if the suns become the team they were 2 years ago i will still love them because of what they did in the 04 05 season. For me they made basketball fun again. Although the saying defence wins chapionships if most likely right. I would never change the way the suns put offence first. I hope that's what they keep on doing even if tha means no championships in phoenix. i love the suns and nothing could ever change that even if Rober Sarver just broke up the team that could have won many rings.

[SequSpur]

Duncan was bailed out by Horry in Game 5.

[BlueShark#6]

Timmy will get more rings than Shaq and that has to eat him up inside.

[z0sa]

Sorry, but Duncan had an accurate midrange jumpshot his rookie year. Amare has been in the league four years now and hes barely getting his jumpshot - and its nowhere near as accurate as Duncan's was.

And Duncan is so much better defensively its not even funny. He blocks more shots, theyre just not the highlight reel kind more of less, although sometimes they are. Hes much better at guarding the low post and positioning himself well. He's also one of the best big men in the league at defending smaller, faster players if hes forced to switch.

Offensively, as I said earlier he has a much better jumpshot and always has (the glass shot is basically called his shot nowadays). Hes not as fast or athletic but he has alot better dribbling skills than people give him credit for. He can dribble with either hand and even cross big men over. But just the same, hes at his deadliest in the low post. He has a small little hook with both hands, hes got excellent (some call the best) footwork and this often leads to fouls plus and1 opportunities. But he can also power it through or lay it up and hes so good at passing it out to the open man, even through double or triple teams.

But the real way I have to compare things is this: who would be better with Steve Nash... Amare, who really wasn't shit before Nash came to town, or Duncan, whos been able to make his own shot for years?

If Duncan were with Nash, I could see him having an MVP season... every season.

[JMarkJohns]

Suns will drop off a bit. I've said it before. But I honestly don't think it'll be from 3-point shooting. They have so many weapons, including Jackson who shot 46% with the Suns last season now in a more important role.

They still have one main question, that of backup PG.



because you have the best player and are the best team, that the NBA doesn't stop there.

It doesn't???

Hmm, last I checked world championships are what you mesured yourself in sports.


Phoenix its how many head coaches you can blow through in a 5 year span.


BTW, I wouldnt doubt if the Suns start out like 12-8 or 13-7 that D'Antoni is fired.

1 and a half years, thats the typical lifespan of the elusive Phoenix Suns coach.

Clever, thing is, it has nothing to do with the line of mine you quoted. Point is, you have Duncan and are the champs, but that doesn't mean that all there is in the NBA. There are other great players, other great teams. Step outside your "I'm a SA fan, therefore it's all about SA" box and try reading posts and their intent, not just picking and choosing which line you want to morph into a new argument.

Of course team greatness is measured by Titles, but are you going to say that Stockton, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, etc... all re just below great because they couldn't quite get that Title? That's absurd. Absolutely the dumbest thing ever if that's what your implying.

Fact is this. Amare is significantly younger than Duncan, is entering just his fourth season as a non-prep basketball player and is already being mentioned as an MVP favorite among some (see Lindy's Mag).

The whole point wasn't who's team is best, because that's rather obvious. It wasn't who's player is currently thee best, as I've argued that Amare is no more than prolly the 10th best player in the League currently. The point was this; Duncan for 4/5, Amare for 8/12... You can choose just one. Which is it?

For short term, Duncan.
For long term, Amare.


Finally...



At his peak, I see MVP's, 30points, 12rebounds per averages and at least 1 Title, though at this point, I'm no longer certain that will be with Phoenix.


Take off the rose colored glasses. Amare scored 26 points on a team that TOTALLY dominated on the perimeter, leaving the lane basically empty. His post game is lukewarm at best. His best bet is a jumper, or an allez-oop. We'll see how good he really is this year, without the blanket of shooters to protect him. Expect to see a LOT of ball denial and double and even triple teams. As for the rebounding, that's pie in the sky. He's averaged under 9 a game for his 4 year career, and it's pretty consistant numbers, not an upward trend, although I will give you that there WILL be a lot of missed 3s for him to clean up, if he has the desire. He hasn't shown that in 4 years, though.

My guess for his numbers this year: 22 and 9.

Again, nice to know you read posts. My claim was 30-12-3 within three years, not next year. Again, take off the GD horse blinders. It's OK to understand. Really...

[FromWayDowntown]

although i don't like how they win sometimes there winners point blank.

What, exactly, about how the Spurs win is so troubling to you?

I'm honestly curious about that as well as the other stuff I asked about.

[z0sa]

wow this guy really has a superiority complex... you talk so condescending. maybe if you treated everyone on the same level as yourself and stop implying everyone is stupid, you'll get more discussing and less arguing.

[JMarkJohns]

I would say the Manu flopping, but it's legal and therefore shouldn't be held against him or the team. It is a sneaky and even semi-dirty tactic, but I love Ginobili and would welcome such as a Sun, so I cannot condemn it as a Spur.

[JMarkJohns]

wow this guy really has a superiority complex... you talk so condescending. maybe if you treated everyone on the same level as yourself and stop implying everyone is stupid, you'll get more discussing and less arguing.


http://moviething.com/members/full/DeNiro,_Robert/M982.jpg

No need for civility when quotes are misused, ignored and taken out of context. Try not to be so Michael freakin' Moore next time...

Nothing personal, It'll all be forgotten by my next post, so long as it's dropped and left to die out.

[FromWayDowntown]

I would say the Manu flopping, but it's legal and therefore shouldn't be held against him or the team. It is a sneaky and even semi-dirty tactic, but I love Ginobili and would welcome such as a Sun, so I cannot condemn it as a Spur.

I've never understood what's dirty about flopping. You may not like it, for whatever reason, but there's nothing about it that even comes close to violating any rules. If it's a flop, the official retains the right to call a foul on the flopper or to make no call. If a player flops he can hurt his own team as much as the other team. What about that is dirty?

[JMarkJohns]

I think it borders on cheap shot. I've seen Fisher try to blindside charge and it can injure a player. Again, I hate because it killed my Suns. I give Manu props for as long as it lasts. Wish some player on the Suns was that skilled at acting :)

[FromWayDowntown]

I think it borders on cheap shot. I've seen Fisher try to blindside charge and it can injure a player.

Well, contesting a shot at the rim carries the same risk, but it's hardly cheap.

JMark, I really am interested in reading your thoughts about the issues in my post at #62. I appreciate your knowledge of the Suns and those questions have bothered me all summer in watching the Suns transactions. Anything?

[JMarkJohns]

Fair enough. I'm honestly interested in knowing, though, if you think things don't change to some extent for the Suns by virtue of the apparent decision to play a more normal lineup with Thomas, Stoudemire and Marion together.

D'Antoni has said that the Suns will continue to use the small lineup for large parts of the season. This is why they stalked up on wings to help replace Johnson and Richardson. How it all works remains to be seen.

When they do switch to a conventional lineup, I think the change will be for specific matchups, both individually and team.



I mean, part of what made Marion such a tough cover last season was the fact that he was basically playing an offensive power forward and routinely was matched up with PF's who had no chance to keep up with him in transition or off-the-dribble. Move forward one year and Marion, it seems, is moving back to SF, where he'll still be good, but might not be quite as dynamic in creating defensive headaches for opponents (see, generally, 2005 WCF, where Spurs treated Marion like a SF).

Agreed. But I've always thought Marion's true value was as a small forward who can score 20 and grab 10 without being a focal point. In the conventional lineups, he'll now get to play the lanes and help with weakside blocks, rather than trying to muscle up the likes of Nazr or whomever...

For the times they go small, Marion will have the impact you mentioned. When they go conventional, he becomes the third potential 10-rebound per night forward. I like that A LOT as defensive rebounding absolutely killed the Suns last season.



I thought that part of what made the Suns so difficult last season was not just their willingness to launch from wherever and their success with that strategy. It was the inability of teams to find a way to defend Marion, Stoudemire, Richardson, and Johnson at the same time. If the Suns play with a more "normal" lineup, I wonder if they'll get the same mismatches when they have to slow it down -- when they can't just launch from distance? It seems to me that two bigs (particularly with undersized 2nd bigs in Grant and Thomas) makes it much easier for teams to double Amare in the post and rotate without creating even worse problems.

With Thomas, He'll be playing the baseline about 18 feet out on offense. He'll stretch the floor plenty. I don't see Grant playing much, maybe 10-15 minutes per or Hunter-type minutes. I think with Grant, things willslow a bit, but with Thomas, I think nothing will slow. Why? Last season Thomas thrived in the Suns style, putting up averages of 14-17 inthe two 120+type games vs. the Suns. There will be lots of rebounds and lots of open jumpers. Also, as shown by San Antonio last year, you don't need five players to run the fast break effectively, so when they do conventional, I think Thomas rebounds and outlets immediately to Nash or Bell or he takes the ball out if a basket is made.

Not much difference than when Amare or Marion had to take the ball out. In fact, it could make things easier with both able to run.



I'm honestly curious about how Suns fans see that issue playing out.

Again, I think the Suns have taken a small step backwards without Johnson while Dallas stays the same and Houston moves up a few spots.

I think these three duke it out for second place, IMO, going Phoenix, Houston, Dallas.

San Antonio took a small step forward, but they were already one big step ahead before Finley and Van Exel, so it's a good distance, save injury.

I'm just as curious. Stats only say so much.

But I think the Suns 3-point shooting may even be better percentage wise than last season and IF Nash plays similer, I think if a healthy Phoenix squad meets a healthy San Antonio squad, that because of the rebounding and depth, Phoenix is in better situation to challenge the Spurs, though right now, I wouldn't have them winning.

[NashtoAmare]

What, exactly, about how the Spurs win is so troubling to you?

I'm honestly curious about that as well as the other stuff I asked about.

They just bother me (period).

**i still respect the Spurs though.

[ambchang]

I never compared players, just situations. Please read to comprehend.

Maybe some of you posts should take the spurs out your ass and realize that simply because you have the best player and are the best team, that the NBA doesn't stop there.

Players do get better, teams improve. All that needs to be said.

Amare has lots of potential, but to expect him to develop into a dominant defensive force when after he has failed to do so in three years and develop a reliable low post game is quite a bit to ask. Based on these trajectories, isn't it just as reasonable to say that LeBron James will be as good as Jordan was at his prime in 3 years? A lot of people say that, but given the choice between a James now, or a 29 year old Jordan, who would you have taken? I am not dismissing the potential of Amare, but I would rather take a sure thing for 5 years, than potential for 10 years.

[Trainwreck2100]

I'm not going to read through the whole thing so if someone has posted this already I'm sorry. Shaq's an ahole. That is all.

[JMarkJohns]

Amare has lots of potential, but to expect him to develop into a dominant defensive force when after he has failed to do so in three years and develop a reliable low post game is quite a bit to ask. Based on these trajectories, isn't it just as reasonable to say that LeBron James will be as good as Jordan was at his prime in 3 years? A lot of people say that, but given the choice between a James now, or a 29 year old Jordan, who would you have taken? I am not dismissing the potential of Amare, but I would rather take a sure thing for 5 years, than potential for 10 years.

First off, HE SHOULD BE A SENIOR IN COLLEGE.

Now that that is out of the way, he's got a full range of low-post moves. I don't know which Amare you've been watching, but as a fan who literally tapes every game and studies film for a career, I can tell you he is unstoppable in single coverage and a very tough guard with double-teams.

How many years did it take Hakeem to peek? And you're saying Amare's hardly going to improve in any area from this point forward? Amare works as hard as any player in the League. Maybe harder. He spent all but three weeks this offseason at training and practicing. Tell me why this won't help him improve?

I don't know if Amare will ever be a great defensive forward. But again, last season Amare's offense and court presense was worth more to the Suns than him playing tough, hardnosed, foul-prone defense.

Style certainly factored in.

Now that they have actual depth, I think he'll get better. Not great, but he won't be guarding too many center man-to-man, but will instead be the swat team along with Marion and perhaps Diaw on help and weakside.

He'll get better rebounding wise. Just look at the playoffs last year. When he needed to, he averaged 11+ per game.

This year I expect around 25-10.5 from him.

[ambchang]

No need for civility when quotes are misused, ignored and taken out of context. Try not to be so Michael freakin' Moore next time...
Nothing personal, It'll all be forgotten by my next post, so long as it's dropped and left to die out.

Wow, look who's talking. After taking only one sentence of my post


Who are the two players who won two championships with 11 different teammates again?
That's right, Bill Russell and Tim Duncan.
Also, putting Amare in the same breath as Duncan, Hakeem, Kareem, Robinson, and even Shaq is laughable. Amare has a nice mid range jumper, and he drives to the right and dunks very hard. Granted, those are not easy moves to stop, but his predictability is something that allows the Spurs to beat the Suns. Is it a coincidence that the Spurs outscores the Suns in the fourth quarter in every game they won, while Amare goes off in those same fourth quarters?
Amare has very limited defensive ability, and is offense is quite one-dimensional. Granted, he is an unbelievable talent and has the potential to be an all-time great, much remains to be seen.
To me, Amare is Bob McAdoo with a dunk.

Ridicule it with


I never compared players, just situations. Please read to comprehend.
Maybe some of you posts should take the spurs out your ass and realize that simply because you have the best player and are the best team, that the NBA doesn't stop there.
Players do get better, teams improve. All that needs to be said.
and not even went on to hint on how Duncan having 11 different teammates in two of his championship teams was only


similer in main stays, different in role players. The main stays made your Title chances possible, however, while the role players aided.

How about your side of the comprehension skills? The main point of the post was to address your assertion that Duncan won with largely similar teams, which is just known to be false.
I went on to say that it is laugable for you to compare Amare to those players, which you refused to admit, but directly did so with quotes like this

Obviously, Duncan is the best player in the League. But his time is running out while Amare's is just gettin' going. It's almost like picking the Late 80's Kareem or Hakeem. One was All-Time great, the other getting there, but the All-Timer was getting older while the potential All-Timer was just gettin' going.
Don't just say that you are comparing situations, you are drawing a direct parallel. Kareem was great, Duncan is great, Hakeem is great, and therefore you are predicting Amare to have levels of greatest at similar to Hakeem. That's a direct comparison. Unless you are saying that there is a huge difference in the talent between Kareem and Duncan.
And taking in account the risks of an unknown element is nothing shocking. You predict Amare will average 30/12/3, and I can just as easily predict him to average 23/9/2, there is absolutely nothing to back it up. It just so happens that you predicted the earlier and decided that there is a high likelihood of that happening, and is willing to forgo a known quality today for it. I predicted the later, and is not willing to forgo a known quality for it.

[JMarkJohns]

I don't think you want to start something. When I was wrong, I backed away.

I'll still hold that the mainstays were your driving force and that mostly just the role players changed. But hey, if you say untrue, then I guess you know best.

My beef is when people dice up a post, maybe using a sentence or a half a sentence and create some alternate meaning for it.



Don't just say that you are comparing situations, you are drawing a direct parallel. Kareem was great, Duncan is great, Hakeem is great, and therefore you are predicting Amare to have levels of greatest at similar to Hakeem. That's a direct comparison. Unless you are saying that there is a huge difference in the talent between Kareem and Duncan.
And taking in account the risks of an unknown element is nothing shocking. You predict Amare will average 30/12/3, and I can just as easily predict him to average 23/9/2, there is absolutely nothing to back it up. It just so happens that you predicted the earlier and decided that there is a high likelihood of that happening, and is willing to forgo a known quality today for it. I predicted the later, and is not willing to forgo a known quality for it.

I compared situation only. I gave an example of this great, but older player or this great and younger player for the duration of their careers. I chose two players. Simple as that. I chose two great players who played the same positions. Again, this is situation.

I do feel that Amare is very similer to Hakeem, but only at the same point in their careers. You'll never find it where I said Amare was better than Duncan, Hakeem, Kareem or Shaq. I never even compared their skills or anything of the sorts.

Wanna try again?!

[ambchang]

First off, HE SHOULD BE A SENIOR IN COLLEGE.

Now that that is out of the way, he's got a full range of low-post moves. I don't know which Amare you've been watching, but as a fan who literally tapes every game and studies film for a career, I can tell you he is unstoppable in single coverage and a very tough guard with double-teams.

How many years did it take Hakeem to peek? And you're saying Amare's hardly going to improve in any area from this point forward? Amare works as hard as any player in the League. Maybe harder. He spent all but three weeks this offseason at training and practicing. Tell me why this won't help him improve?

I don't know if Amare will ever be a great defensive forward. But again, last season Amare's offense and court presense was worth more to the Suns than him playing tough, hardnosed, foul-prone defense.

Style certainly factored in.

Now that they have actual depth, I think he'll get better. Not great, but he won't be guarding too many center man-to-man, but will instead be the swat team along with Marion and perhaps Diaw on help and weakside.

He'll get better rebounding wise. Just look at the playoffs last year. When he needed to, he averaged 11+ per game.

This year I expect around 25-10.5 from him.

I don't care what age he is right now. You draw Hakeem, one of the latest bloomers in the league? I will draw up Bill Walton, better yet, find somebody who didn't have his career derailed due to injuries, Terry Cummings, or Bob McAdoo, or Spencer Haywood. There is no telling where he is heading. The current trend is up, and I am not going to argue that, but saying that he is going to keep improving because Hakeem did the same is pure speculation. I am not even saying that he can hardly improve, trying taking some of your own advice and try to read, he doesn't play any defense right now, and you expect him to become a player who can carry his team? A player has to at least play GOOD defense. Very few player become good defensive players after sucking early on in his careers. And his lack of low post move is continuously noted as a weakness. He is KNOWN to have a midrange shot and drive right and dunk. His unstoppability has nothing to do with his arrange of shots, just like you can't stop Shawn Kemp during his heydays, but that still doesn't change the fact that he had very little variety on his lowpost moves.

[JMarkJohns]

Also, I never faulted any single Spurs fan for them taking Duncan over Amare. I simply defended Shaq's stance as some were playing the "Shaq's an idiot" or "Shaq is just a hater" card.

For me, I'll take Amare.

[JMarkJohns]

ambchang, I mentioned earlier "barring injury". Your argument against Amare can be used equally (if not greater) with Duncan. It's not like Timmy's been the example of perfect health, now...

[JMarkJohns]

Also, Kemp never even averaged 20 points per game. Don't tell me he couldn't be stopped.

[ambchang]

I compared situation only. I gave an example of this great, but older player or this great and younger player for the duration of their careers. I chose two players. Simple as that. I chose two great players who played the same positions. Again, this is situation.

I do feel that Amare is very similer to Hakeem, but only at the same point in their careers. You'll never find it where I said Amare was better than Duncan, Hakeem, Kareem or Shaq. I never even compared their skills or anything of the sorts.

Wanna try again?!

Want to try this logic test?
A:B::C:D, A similar to C, guess what the relation B and D is? Now substitute A with Kareem, C with Duncan, B with Hakeem and D with Stoudamire. Unless you are saying that A and C are extremely far apart, you are saying B and D are similar. I never said you said Amare better than anybody, but to compare them in their career trends, to me, is laughable.
Besides, Hakeem is known for his great footwork and defensive abilities, even early on in his career, Amare was known for his atheleticism, two very different players.

[ambchang]

Also, Kemp never even averaged 20 points per game. Don't tell me he couldn't be stopped.


Of course he did
1999 - 20.5. Yeah yeah yeah, it's shortened season, he only got over by 0.5 points, but he still did it over a season.
It should also be noted that in the playoffs, he had the following averages
95 - 24.8, 96 - 20.9, 97 - 21.6, 98 - 26


ambchang, I mentioned earlier "barring injury". Your argument against Amare can be used equally (if not greater) with Duncan. It's not like Timmy's been the example of perfect health, now...

I am sorry, my argument was poorly stated. I first stated Bill Walton, then realized that his career was derailed because of injuries, so I found examples that didn't have their careers derailed due to injuries, but simply peaked early and went down hill from there. My argument is that there is no telling if Amare is "Hakeem-like", or he would be like the other guys where he peaks early, and does not get better.

[JMarkJohns]

Hakeem was a great shot-blocker, not a great man-to-man defender. But he did get better with age.

How is it laughable to compare or predict a great player or a great players numbers to other great players or their numbers? The point never changed, you can insert any vast number of names for those situations. Replace with scrubs if you want. I was simply saying you can have an older player for a shorter time or a younger player for a longer time. That's it, that's the intent.

What you read into it is on you.

Replace with any name. Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton... Stephon Marbury or Tony Parker... Rasheed Wallace or Tyson Chandler?

It doesn't matter the player. It was the situation I was comparing.

[JMarkJohns]

Of course he did
1999 - 20.5. Yeah yeah yeah, it's shortened season, he only got over by 0.5 points, but he still did it over a season.
It should also be noted that in the playoffs, he had the following averages
95 - 24.8, 96 - 20.9, 97 - 21.6, 98 - 26

Fine, lock-out shortened season... he was still far from unstoppable as he had no real moves, except for the power slam and didn't have the jumper Amare has now. He was a great athlete who got the most from his ability, but limited skill.


I am sorry, my argument was poorly stated. I first stated Bill Walton, then realized that his career was derailed because of injuries, so I found examples that didn't have their careers derailed due to injuries, but simply peaked early and went down hill from there. My argument is that there is no telling if Amare is "Hakeem-like", or he would be like the other guys where he peaks early, and does not get better.

But your argument against me is different than my initial argument. You can't hold that against my posts when it was never being considered.

The question was posed, which player would you take to start a team with. Any player, but you only get that playe for as long as he lasts, starting from this point forward.

I added barring injury, there's no reason to discredit Amare as he's a great player on track for even better things.

[JMarkJohns]

It's been fun. Thanks for the banter. I'm all about the banter.

Duncan is the greatest, San Antonio is the Champ, but Amare is the future.

He will be an "Of All-Timer"

Do not doubt that. I just pray it's on Phoenix.

[Marcus Bryant]

I think it's time to hand the Suns the "real" championship.

[JMarkJohns]

I think it's time to hand the Suns the "real" championship.

No idea what this means, but I hope you're not trying to put words in my posts.

That would be incredably weak-sister of you.

You guys here, your team and its players got nothing but respect coming from me. Nothin' but love....

[samikeyp]

Fine, lock-out shortened season...

Irrelevant because everyone that season had the same thing. People tend to use that as an excuse like the Spurs were the only ones who had to play less games.

[milkyway21]

I think Duncan shld start looking around the league and when his current contract expires, he'll consider playing for other teams before he retires.

Forget being so loyal to the fans like Robinson bec. some of them are not loyal to him either.

Then i wish Amare signs with Spurs and Tim will win in the playoff over him & end SA's title hopes.

that would be a nice :angel .

[samikeyp]

dude...you are either joking or really high.

[SequSpur]

I think Duncan shld start looking around the league and when his current contract expires, he'll consider playing for other teams before he retires.

Forget being so loyal to the fans like Robinson bec. some of them are not loyal to him either.

Then i wish Amare signs with Spurs and Tim will win in the playoff over him & end SA's title hopes.

that would be a nice :angel .

what is your sense of purpose on earth?

[T Park]

^^ Lol, first time ive laughed at a Sequ post in a while.

[callo1]

:lol after his career is over Shaq will be so fat that they'd be forced to use WideScreen cameras.

hahahhahaha !!

The picture of Shaq and Sir Charles together on the Inside the NBA set on TNT just entered my head...cya Kenny and Ernie...no room left on the set for you guys :lol

[orhe]

i have to agree w/ shaq on this one... if im going to pick one guy NOW, amare would be that guy. he's a physical monster who seems to have his mind just right... w/ a good amount of passion of the game and great understanding. id love to see how he develops into a more all around player this season especially defensively.

[GrandeDavid]

shaq undermines duncan,

Hey guys this my first post on forum, anyway did anyone see shaq on stephen A.'s quite freakingly? when he was asked by stephen ass about duncan, shaq almost ignorantly said "yeah I'd say he's a great player" and went on to say, aside from him, if a team to pick a player to start to franchise with, it would be Amare. and he said He's only good big man left in league, he also said that not coming Miami is Finley loss,not his.
I don't think shaq gives enough respect to duncan, and thinks Amare is best big man after. I think it's funny, what do you guys think. :blah

Shaq is funny, quotable and has a good heart, but he's also a pussy of a poor sport, sore loser. What a stupid thing to say. Sore loser! Amare ain't shit. Where's Amare's hardware? He DOES have a bronze medal, ha ha ha, but seriously, the dude is young, has hops and can dunk. But he has limited range and plays no D.

Remind Shaq never to go into scouting or coaching. Good grief.

[GrandeDavid]

See, Amare is Shaq's boy and likes to party w/him. Duncan could care less about hanging out or partying w/Snack. Same w/SAS.

In other words, WGAF what Shaq thinks

EXACTLY!!! SAS has no clue about championship basketball. He's just there to provide soundbytes on individual players, appealing to the less-educated fans. Who gives a shit. He couldn't even park in the Spurs practice facility parking lot, much less understand their greatness.

[LilMissSPURfect]

stephen ass is just that!

[batman2883]

I like Stephen A. Smith he's a funny guy

[Banks91]

I Can Understand Somewhat Wanting To Take A Younger Player Over An Older Player, But Ask Yourself This. Say Duncan Has 5 More Years Of This Level Of Playing, And He Gets U 2 Championships, While Amare Gives U About 10 Years, Continues Contention But No Championship, Wat Would U Do?? Cuz Thats Wat This Basically Comes Down To

[Rummpd]

The "hell with Shaq" who is the most over-rated big man of all time period (that is for those fools who put him up there with Kareem, Wilt, Russell). Has he ever won a championship without Kobe bailing him out or Jackson, where are his rebounding and block titles? Shaq is no better than Robinson or Hakeem and in their primes I would rather have either one for their consistency.

Whose also to say Amare is not the next Shawn Kemp? = please any comparisons with Duncan at this time are inane!

One great block on a hurt player does not an all around player make, wake me when he starts to rebound, pass and consistently block shots!

Dwight Howard may be better than Amare all around when all said and done and a guy named Yao may be in the mix!

[MI21]

There is just so much more to Basketball than putting the ball in the hoop, and while Amare could very well be the best player in the league at doing that, there is so much else to learn. The gap between him and Tim still exists and always will until Amare does something other than score.

[ambchang]

Hakeem was a great shot-blocker, not a great man-to-man defender. But he did get better with age.

How is it laughable to compare or predict a great player or a great players numbers to other great players or their numbers? The point never changed, you can insert any vast number of names for those situations. Replace with scrubs if you want. I was simply saying you can have an older player for a shorter time or a younger player for a longer time. That's it, that's the intent.

What you read into it is on you.

Replace with any name. Ray Allen or Rip Hamilton... Stephon Marbury or Tony Parker... Rasheed Wallace or Tyson Chandler?

It doesn't matter the player. It was the situation I was comparing.

If that was your intent, then fine, but you can't fault me for the misleading comparisons, with my A:B :: C:D example, that's logic way of thinking. And to answer your question, I would rather take a great player for a shorter time. There aren't many sure things in sport.

Hakeem has always been a good defender, going back to the Phi Slamma Jamma days, and he wasn't just a good defender. Even though awards could be misleading, but he WAS all defense 2nd team in his rookie year, all-defense first in his third year, fourth and fifth year. The guy was a monster. And he was in an age where he had to deal with another great defensive center in Mark Eaton (don't laugh, the guy not only can block shots, he was a fantastic rebounder, and was decently mobile for a guy his size).


Fine, lock-out shortened season... he was still far from unstoppable as he had no real moves, except for the power slam and didn't have the jumper Amare has now. He was a great athlete who got the most from his ability, but limited skill.

The ironic thing is that Amare is exactly that at the moment (except the jumper part). Shawn Kemp actually have more low post moves than Amare, a nice little spin, a little baby hook, but he still relied solely on his physical attributes, and when that was gone, so did his career. You cannot say that Amare is not over reliant on his physical attribute at this moment. He did develop a decent jumper, but there is really no improvement in his foot work in the post or his defense in the 3 years he played.


I added barring injury, there's no reason to discredit Amare as he's a great player on track for even better things.

And I stated previous examples like Spencer Haywood, Shawn Kemp and Bob McAdoo. We have different assumptions, and we come to different conclusions. Don't get me wrong, I think Amare is an unbelievable physical element, and I believe that he has to potential to be a great player, but there is still much work to do.

[JMarkJohns]

Hakeem has always been a good defender, going back to the Phi Slamma Jamma days, and he wasn't just a good defender. Even though awards could be misleading, but he WAS all defense 2nd team in his rookie year, all-defense first in his third year, fourth and fifth year. The guy was a monster. And he was in an age where he had to deal with another great defensive center in Mark Eaton (don't laugh, the guy not only can block shots, he was a fantastic rebounder, and was decently mobile for a guy his size).

Look, I understand what you're saying, but Hakeem was an outstanding shot-blocker and a decent man-up defender. Early in his career, however, he went for far more blocks than needed, which meant leaving his man far more times than needed, which meant far more buckets allowed than needed.

He became better, but at the beginning, he was mostly a shot-blocker.




The ironic thing is that Amare is exactly that at the moment (except the jumper part). Shawn Kemp actually have more low post moves than Amare, a nice little spin, a little baby hook, but he still relied solely on his physical attributes, and when that was gone, so did his career. You cannot say that Amare is not over reliant on his physical attribute at this moment. He did develop a decent jumper, but there is really no improvement in his foot work in the post or his defense in the 3 years he played.

Again, I've watched close to 90% of the Suns games. I study film. I know for a fact that what you are saying may have been true his rookie season and maybe the beginning of his second year, but as of now, Amare can go off the dribble (both right and left, but mostly right), he's got baseline spins, up-n-unders, he's got a baby hook, he's got his power spin and he's a got a jumper out to 18 feet from any angle.


[/quote]And I stated previous examples like Spencer Haywood, Shawn Kemp and Bob McAdoo. We have different assumptions, and we come to different conclusions. Don't get me wrong, I think Amare is an unbelievable physical element, and I believe that he has to potential to be a great player, but there is still much work to do.[/QUOTE]

I won't deny that, which is why I said it will take three more years for Amare to pass Duncan in being the better player and why I said Duncan could very well be the better player for as long as four more years.

Of course no one knows about injuries and insanities, but this wasn't a reality-type question. If no injuries occur and natural progress is made, then I'd take Amare for as long as his career lasts over Duncan for as long as his career lasts from this point forward.

[samikeyp]

If Amare handles his fame like Duncan...he is destined for great things...if he handles it like Shawn Kemp...he is destined for the same fate.

[Raikonen]

I'll agree to an extent, but 23-year olds rarely play like this kid does. I think he tries to play the best defense he can, without risking silly fouls. He does the Suns no good if he's only on the court for 30 minutes a game like Yao. He blocks the shots he can and muscles up when in position. I think he's too smart to make something when it's not there as the Suns have not had the luxery of a deep frontcourt ever in his time as a Sun. Let's see how he works this year, now that there's some actual depth.

For the next 10 years, Amare or LeBron or Wade?

Since 90% of the NBA Champions have been built around a dominant big man, Amare looks like the winner to me.

Amare won't be the NBA's dominant big man when that time comes.



It will be Ian Mahinmi. :elephant