All-Time Center List By ESPN

[Thomas82]

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankCs/ranking-greatest-centers-nba-history


***Please delete the thread if it's a duplicate.

[TXstbobcat]

The Admiral makes the list :toast

[BillMc]

The Admiral makes the list :toast
:bobo

[barbacoataco]

Pretty good list. Don't think I'd change a thing except maybe put Russell over Wilt.

[thiste]

Where's Boban?

[Silver&Black]

Where's Boban?

Exactly. List is null and void...

/thread

[apalisoc_9]

Bill Russell and Wilt..Yuck...just Yuck.

Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq


After these three players theres a huge drop off.

Robinson is probably the best RS center though. Id put him just above moses.

[100%duncan]

George Mikan :lol NBL :lol 40% career fg :lol

Russell :lol Today's Randle

[Kawhitstorm]

Bill Russell and Wilt..Yuck...just Yuck.

Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq


After these three players theres a huge drop off.

Robinson is probably the best RS center though. Id put him just above moses.

Moses beat the Showtime Lakers w/ mothafuckin' Calvin Murphy as his wingman:lol & mauled Kareem in the 83 Finals. Dude had 3 regulars season MVPs & was also the best player on an All-Time top 5 team that was the 82-83 Sixers.

Admiral apologist can bitch about him playing w/ All-star ****** :rolleyes & not having clutch shooters like Hakeem:cry but he can't even shine Moses postseason resume, period.

You can look at it this way:
-Admiral: KG
-Moses: Tim

[SpursIndonesia]

Wilt was a beast, may he rest in peace. 7'1" FLAT FOOTED aka around 7'3" in today's NBA metric, athletic enough to be a pole vaulter & long jumper in college. Basically a Hassan Whiteside with Boban's frame, he WILL be dominant in any era of basketball.

Russel ? A 6'10" Kawhi Leonard on defensive instinct & intensity, with the smart & basketball IQ of greats. Might not be as dominant from physical stand point, but with his gift & work ethic, can easily be a taller, better version of Raymond Green in today's NBA.

Those two are top 10 greats at the C spot for sure.

[thiste]

Wilt was a beast, may he rest in peace. 7'1" FLAT FOOTED aka around 7'3" in today's NBA metric, athletic enough to be a pole vaulter & long jumper in college. Basically a Hassan Whiteside with Boban's frame, he WILL be dominant in any era of basketball.

Russel ? A 6'10" Kawhi Leonard on defensive instinct & intensity, with the smart & basketball IQ of greats. Might not be as dominant from physical stand point, but with his gift & work ethic, can easily be a taller, better version of Raymond Green in today's NBA.

Those two are top 10 greats at the C spot for sure.

So what about Sabonis? I'm surprised no one even mentioned him.

Not sure I really need to convince people that he belongs on that list. If we're talking physicality/ability/bball IQ, in his prime he's right up there.
7 feet 3 flat footed, strong with a giant wingspan, good hands and touch around the basket, great mobility, top notch post game, incredible court vision, out of this world passing ability, bball IQ off the charts, not to mention 45% 3pt shooting in his prime with 80% FT shooting.
He was like a 7'4" mix of Kareem and Larry Bird. Are you kidding me?

The only argument against him is "lack of footage". In the little we do have (88 Olympics semi-finals against the US for example), he's totally destroying David Robinson. And it's not a case of an adult beating on a young man, they're just one year apart in age.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik

Everybody knows he's the best "non nba" (prime) center ever, I personally put him in that Kareem/Wilt category. Come at me bros :)

[100%duncan]

So what about Sabonis? I'm surprised no one even mentioned him.

Not sure I really need to convince people that he belongs on that list. If we're talking physicality/ability/bball IQ, in his prime he's right up there.
7 feet 3 flat footed, strong with a giant wingspan, good hands and touch around the basket, great mobility, top notch post game, incredible court vision, out of this world passing ability, bball IQ off the charts, not to mention 45% 3pt shooting in his prime with 80% FT shooting.
He was like a 7'4" mix of Kareem and Larry Bird. Are you kidding me?

The only argument against him is "lack of footage". In the little we do have (88 Olympics semi-finals against the US for example), he's totally destroying David Robinson. And it's not a case of an adult beating on a young man, they're just one year apart in age.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik

Everybody knows he's the best "non nba" (prime) center ever, I personally put him in that Kareem/Wilt category. Come at me bros :)
I wish we had a Sabonis today. Never got to see him play but the hype of a giant from overseas who can actually play and beat up the asses of the NBA superstar is what the sport needs IMHO.

[Spurminator]

I remember ESPN putting out a list in 2002 when Ewing retired that had Ewing in the top 10 and not Robinson. Glad to see 2003 was apparently enough for a 4+ spot promotion.

[BSfromTX]

You could make a case for sabonis to be fairly high on that list.. If he gets to NBA at a younger age, he'd probably be on that list. I would take prime sabonis over Ewing

[HarlemHeat37]

Bill Russell and Wilt..Yuck...just Yuck.

Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq


After these three players theres a huge drop off.

Robinson is probably the best RS center though. Id put him just above moses.

:lol I kind of understand the Wilt arguments, but Russell shouldn't be anywhere near these lists, tbh..embarrassing..

[Kawhitstorm]

:lol I kind of understand the Wilt arguments, but Russell shouldn't be anywhere near these lists, tbh..embarrassing..

Anybody arguing against Wilt must not be aware that washed up Wilt held his own against PEAK Kareem when Wilt was playing Timmay's current role (defend/rebound). Willis Reed also needs to be on the list since he gave Kareem the business during their lone playoff meeting but he got injured during his prime (won the MVP over Kareem) so he became the forgotten man besides the this moment:

hyGNITggLFs

[SouthernFried]

Bill Russel won 11 rings in his 13 year career. He also won two (2) NCAA championships... and got a gold medal at Olympics.

Uh.....lol

[SpursIndonesia]

So what about Sabonis? I'm surprised no one even mentioned him.

Not sure I really need to convince people that he belongs on that list. If we're talking physicality/ability/bball IQ, in his prime he's right up there.
7 feet 3 flat footed, strong with a giant wingspan, good hands and touch around the basket, great mobility, top notch post game, incredible court vision, out of this world passing ability, bball IQ off the charts, not to mention 45% 3pt shooting in his prime with 80% FT shooting.
He was like a 7'4" mix of Kareem and Larry Bird. Are you kidding me?

The only argument against him is "lack of footage". In the little we do have (88 Olympics semi-finals against the US for example), he's totally destroying David Robinson. And it's not a case of an adult beating on a young man, they're just one year apart in age.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06usV6451ik

Everybody knows he's the best "non nba" (prime) center ever, I personally put him in that Kareem/Wilt category. Come at me bros :)

Sabonis was a great great C of his era, and yes, his physical & skill dominance will translate to any era.

BUT

From the article it self:


........
the best centers in NBA history
.........

I am sure Sabas is great in the history of WORLD basketball, but his NBA version was a TOSB broken down one. While that was still enough for top 10 ranking C of that NBA time frame, on all time list it is quite fair to omit him from it, IMHO.

[Cry Havoc]

Russel ? A 6'10" Kawhi Leonard on defensive instinct & intensity, with the smart & basketball IQ of greats. Might not be as dominant from physical stand point, but with his gift & work ethic, can easily be a taller, better version of Raymond Green in today's NBA.

He could barely fucking dribble.

I realize the past gets automatically rose tinted for people but an average team from today's league would absolutely murder the 60s Celtics.

[Cry Havoc]

:lol I kind of understand the Wilt arguments, but Russell shouldn't be anywhere near these lists, tbh..embarrassing..

Agree. Wilt today would still be a monster. By any account even in today's league he would be an athletic freak. Russell would be very similar to a slightly more athletic Ben Wallace, but not as strong.

[SpursIndonesia]

When we are talking about Bill Russel, we need to put a perspective of his ROLE on that stacked Celtics team IMHO. He wasn't needed to score or be playmaker, he was their defensive ANCHOR and capable of muting such all world offensive talent & physical beast like Chamberlain, TIME and TIME yet again. I see a footage of his NCAA game on youtube, he has such a grace & great athleticism for a 6'10" guy, that if he was given more responsibility on the offensive side, i think he would have been able to fulfill that demand without much hassle. But yes, you can question & debate his exact rank, but not his placement at the top 10 list for being such a great winner (on a really superpower, stacked team none the less).

[Cry Havoc]

When we are talking about Bill Russel, we need to put a perspective of his ROLE on that stacked Celtics team IMHO. He wasn't needed to score or be playmaker, he was their defensive ANCHOR and capable of muting such all world offensive talent & physical beast like Chamberlain, TIME and TIME yet again. I see a footage of his NCAA game on youtube, he has such a grace & great athleticism for a 6'10" guy, that if he was given more responsibility on the offensive side, i think he would have been able to fulfill that demand without much hassle. But yes, you can question & debate his exact rank, but not his placement at the top 10 list for being such a great winner (on a really superpower, stacked team none the less).

First of all, he was reportedly 6'9". 6'9" 220 pound athletes are a dime a dozen in today's league. That's not to say he wouldn't be effective today, but the idea that he was some out of this world player with his athleticism is kind of silly. People love to romanticize his blocking prowess and how high he could jump. Watch the videos again. There's nothing there that is consistently spectacular. A lot of his "highlight reel" blocks are him swatting the ball from a 6'3" guy who drives way under the hoop and tries to throw up a prayer. :lol

And again, he could barely dribble the ball down the court without nearly losing control. It's pretty painful to watch.

[SouthernFried]

Bill Russell was a Defensive Monster. The Best Defensive Monster in the history of the NBA. Had the rebounding title 4 straight years. Once had 50 rebounds in a game. Championships followed him wherever he played, from college to the NBA.

But, he can't dribble? Dribbling prowess is something I've never looked for in a center...ever. lol

[Sean Cagney]

Agree. Wilt today would still be a monster. By any account even in today's league he would be an athletic freak. Russell would be very similar to a slightly more athletic Ben Wallace, but not as strong.

Yes but they are going by what they did in their primes and not comparing what they would do in modern times if they hit a time machine. We could say this about most sports but athletes have gotten better obviously and the game has evolved but that doesnt take away what they did in their day. Russell was a winner, period.

[thiste]

I am sure Sabas is great in the history of WORLD basketball, but his NBA version was a TOSB broken down one. While that was still enough for top 10 ranking C of that NBA time frame, on all time list it is quite fair to omit him from it, IMHO.

OK yeah I agree with you. I was misled by the title of this thread "All-Time Center List".

I still feel that Arvydas is often overlooked because it's true that apart from him, both those lists are pretty much the same. I'm basing my analysis on the fact that if I had to make my all time starting 5, Sabonis might be in it at center. In addition to all the qualities I listed about him earlier, I think he would probably be more "coachable" than Wilt or Kareem and that's important as well.

Pop said as much in an interview about Euro players in the 80s (@2:26):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE4Ld2k-L5Q

[SpursIndonesia]

First of all, he was reportedly 6'9". 6'9" 220 pound athletes are a dime a dozen in today's league. That's not to say he wouldn't be effective today, but the idea that he was some out of this world player with his athleticism is kind of silly. People love to romanticize his blocking prowess and how high he could jump. Watch the videos again. There's nothing there that is consistently spectacular. A lot of his "highlight reel" blocks are him swatting the ball from a 6'3" guy who drives way under the hoop and tries to throw up a prayer. :lol

And again, he could barely dribble the ball down the court without nearly losing control. It's pretty painful to watch.

I've read a thread in some forum discussing his height, it seems a golden aged Russel is still just only a hair shorter than TD and clearly as tall as the likes of Howard. Yes he was not all bulked up back then, but with that body build it was enough to cock block Chamberlain and other big man of the league, why using it as a factor against him ? Most big men in his era were relatively rail thin compared to guys in today's NBA anyway.

Like what i've said earlier, i see a footage about his NCAA game, he dribbled coast to coast in real time speed & ended up with a tomahawk .... lay up lol racist era basketball, with guard like speed of today's NBA, that's nothing short of great potential in his game, that perhaps went unrealized in the Celtics team's player role build up.

[Russo21]

I was watching a different video with loudmouth Stephen A Smith discussing the same topic and he mentioned how Shaq 'rag-dolled Duncan and Robinson' Yep shaq and the Lakers got passed Tim and the Spurs a few times but Tim got passed Shaq and his Lakers a few times also, a sweep in 99 and sent Shaq and Kobe home crying in 03 (and shaq with the Suns also). That's what happens when greats meet greats, you win some, you lose some. The 'rag dolled' comment was a bit disrespectful to Tim and Dave.

[Obstructed_View]

I was watching a different video with loudmouth Stephen A Smith discussing the same topic and he mentioned how Shaq 'rag-dolled Duncan and Robinson' Yep shaq and the Lakers got passed Tim and the Spurs a few times but Tim got passed Shaq and his Lakers a few times also, a sweep in 99 and sent Shaq and Kobe home crying in 03 (and shaq with the Suns also). That's what happens when greats meet greats, you win some, you lose some. The 'rag dolled' comment was a bit disrespectful to Tim and Dave.

That was a funny statement. I think Shaq met the Spurs three times in the playoffs when both Timmy and David were healthy, and the Spurs won twice.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Drob should be ahead of Malone. Other than that, I would agree with that list.

[Obstructed_View]

Apparently your value as a center depends on how many hall of fame teammates you have.

[barbacoataco]

These are all time great lists. When composing such a list the general rule is you compare players based on their accomplishments. If you want to say all athletes from the past were inferior, then don't participate. You can just make a list of the best players from the past 15 years.

Also, let's be honest that if modern athletes really are do much better it's because of roids and other PED's. Not "better nutrition."

[MultiTroll]

Bob Parish in
Patrick Ewing out

[Raven]

Wilt should be #1

[will_spurs]

These are all time great lists. When composing such a list the general rule is you compare players based on their accomplishments. If you want to say all athletes from the past were inferior, then don't participate. You can just make a list of the best players from the past 15 years.

Also, let's be honest that if modern athletes really are do much better it's because of roids and other PED's. Not "better nutrition."

Part of it is true, but it's kind of a stretch to say that the Russell-era was truly the NBA. It's easier to be the greatest when the competition is so small.

[SouthernFried]

I think it might be helpful to reverse thinking on this. Not thinking "could Russel dominate today"...but, would people like Jordan have even made it to the NBA back then?

When there were no massive scouting combines looking at the potential of 12 yr olds back then. Throwing massive money at anything that looks like it could be a potential star. Grooming, training, funding them every step of the way. There wasn't the entitled mentality of many kids today. Playing Basketball in the NBA wasn't the dream of every kid on the block. It took a special type of person to overcome societal issues of the day and totally commit themselves to something that wasn't even close to providing the rewards for the players as it does now. The single mindedness of those players to play a game that wasn't near as popular as it is now.

How many current NBA players would have even tried or given up early because nobody was pushing them or supporting them? It wasn't winning the lottery back then. It was a different mindset. The NBA players back then not only had to be physically capable of the game...but, overcome many other obstacles like segregation, etc...to do what they had to do. How many of today's players, if they were raised in those times, would even had the fortitude to make it to the NBA? Athletic 6'10" players just didn't start growing in the 90's. They were there in the 50's too. They didn't make it to the NBA. Russell did.

So, you can't compare them. You cannot compare generational players. Because there is so much more going on in each generation outside of just "dribbling the basketball," that determines greatness in those times. You just pick the best of that generation and move on. How they dominated their particular time in history.

And Bill Russell Dominated his generation. 11 rings and 2 NCAA championships. Are you kidding me?? And he did it during some of the most troubled times in our history...which he was an ACTIVE part of as well. Bill Russell would be my number 1 or 2 player. No question about it.

Even tho I've always found him annoying to listen to.... :lol

[MVPCues]

http://www.nba.com/encyclopedia/ryan_rivalries.html

I think it is a good list. I'm not convinced any particular player should absolutely not be on it or vice versa, but there are cases to be had.

To some extent, Wilt's dominance is what allowed Russel to be in this discussion. If Wilt was not such a dominant force, then the discussion would be that Boston was simply way better during those years than Wilt's teams. Wilt was that dominant, yet he was 1 for 10 and boston was 9 for 10 in the playoffs those years. Huh. That must mean Russel was that great also? He must have shut Wilt down?

Wilt average 28.7 and 28.7 against Russel over 142 games. He scored 62 against Russel in a game. Wilt scored 50+ seven times against Russel. That isn't exactly shutting him down.

Boston was simply better. Russel was great. He averaged 15.1 and 22.5. Eleven rings is ridiculous. But, IMO, being part of the longest and best rivalry with Wilt is what puts him so high. I think he deserves to be on the list but not at #3 above some of those other names.

[Cry Havoc]

I've read a thread in some forum discussing his height, it seems a golden aged Russel is still just only a hair shorter than TD and clearly as tall as the likes of Howard. Yes he was not all bulked up back then, but with that body build it was enough to cock block Chamberlain and other big man of the league, why using it as a factor against him ? Most big men in his era were relatively rail thin compared to guys in today's NBA anyway.

Like what i've said earlier, i see a footage about his NCAA game, he dribbled coast to coast in real time speed & ended up with a tomahawk .... lay up lol racist era basketball, with guard like speed of today's NBA, that's nothing short of great potential in his game, that perhaps went unrealized in the Celtics team's player role build up.

You realize Wilt had monster games almost every time they played, right? And the Celtics had a superteam while Wilt had no one around him for most of his career, right?

Of course not. Because that doesn't fit the narrative. I'm sure that Russell was just so amazing that having 4 other HOF teammates had nothing to do with getting 11 rings.

[Cry Havoc]

Wilt average 28.7 and 28.7 against Russel over 142 games. He scored 62 against Russel in a game. Wilt scored 50+ seven times against Russel. That isn't exactly shutting him down.


but with that body build it was enough to cock block Chamberlain and other big man of the league

:lol :lol :lol

[Vito Corleone]

Here is my list

1. Hakeem Olajuwon -
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Robinson
7. Moses Malone
8. Sabonis - if only he joined the NBA in his prime, he probably would be much higher on this list
9. Bill Walton - Too bad about the injuries
10.Willis Reed

[Horse]

No way I have oneal ahead of Drob moses or hakeem. Yes he was dominant offensively(biggest kid in the neighborhood) but an underwhelming rebounder for his size and rarely played any D. As far as the playoffs I hate kobe but he's the one who got the lakers out the west then shaq would feast on the shit centers in the east. Dont' forget shaq got swept every year to start his career.

[Kawhitstorm]

Here is my list

1. Hakeem Olajuwon -
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Robinson
7. Moses Malone
8. Sabonis - if only he joined the NBA in his prime, he probably would be much higher on this list
9. Bill Walton - Too bad about the injuries
10.Willis Reed

Hakeem got shat on by past prime Kareem:lol

[tholdren]

Part of it is true, but it's kind of a stretch to say that the Russell-era was truly the NBA. It's easier to be the greatest when the competition is so small.
It's about hard work and luck. Systemically you can succeed in HS fail in nba, mediocre college to nba superstar. Era is just part of luck

[HarlemHeat37]

:lol NBA full of White American players..smh..

[tholdren]

:lol NBA full of White American players..smh..
What does that mean?

[SPURt]

I think it might be helpful to reverse thinking on this. Not thinking "could Russel dominate today"...but, would people like Jordan have even made it to the NBA back then?

When there were no massive scouting combines looking at the potential of 12 yr olds back then. Throwing massive money at anything that looks like it could be a potential star. Grooming, training, funding them every step of the way. There wasn't the entitled mentality of many kids today. Playing Basketball in the NBA wasn't the dream of every kid on the block. It took a special type of person to overcome societal issues of the day and totally commit themselves to something that wasn't even close to providing the rewards for the players as it does now. The single mindedness of those players to play a game that wasn't near as popular as it is now.

How many current NBA players would have even tried or given up early because nobody was pushing them or supporting them? It wasn't winning the lottery back then. It was a different mindset. The NBA players back then not only had to be physically capable of the game...but, overcome many other obstacles like segregation, etc...to do what they had to do. How many of today's players, if they were raised in those times, would even had the fortitude to make it to the NBA? Athletic 6'10" players just didn't start growing in the 90's. They were there in the 50's too. They didn't make it to the NBA. Russell did.

So, you can't compare them. You cannot compare generational players. Because there is so much more going on in each generation outside of just "dribbling the basketball," that determines greatness in those times. You just pick the best of that generation and move on. How they dominated their particular time in history.

And Bill Russell Dominated his generation. 11 rings and 2 NCAA championships. Are you kidding me?? And he did it during some of the most troubled times in our history...which he was an ACTIVE part of as well. Bill Russell would be my number 1 or 2 player. No question about it.

Even tho I've always found him annoying to listen to.... :lol
Great take! I've never looked at it from that perspective. The other part is nutrition, guys were smoking in locker rooms forever in the NBA and eating garbage.

[Hoops Czar]

Hakeem got shat on by past prime Kareem:lol

Kareem put up some monster numbers for a 39 year old but, I wouldn't call a second year player that averaged roughly 33 points, 12 rebounds and 4 blocked shots in the series where Houston won in 5 games getting shat on :lol.

[HarlemHeat37]

What does that mean?

There's a reason the league's % of White Americans has declined dramatically from the 60s until now..

[tholdren]

There's a reason the league's % of White Americans has declined dramatically from the 60s until now..

Increase in non white population?

[james evans]

Bill Russell and Wilt..Yuck...just Yuck.

Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq


After these three players theres a huge drop off.

Robinson is probably the best RS center though. Id put him just above moses.
u obviously have never seen Moses Malone in his prime play. Just go to youtube and look at a few highlights(though that still will do him no justice). Moses Malone was a fucking beast. I would have put someone like Reed or Hayes over Walton though. He had a 4 or 5 year good run, but that's it. Injuries destroyed his career. He was still able to contribute to Boston in 86, but I just can't see Walton as an all time top 10 center for the few years he was great.

[james evans]

Hakeem got shat on by past prime Kareem:lol
Hakeem in his 2nd year was serving Kareem something serious, but Kareem gave to him just as he received. You are failing to mention that Karee had just won the finals mvp a year prior as he was 'shitting on" everyone really.

[SpursIndonesia]

You realize Wilt had monster games almost every time they played, right? And the Celtics had a superteam while Wilt had no one around him for most of his career, right?

Of course not. Because that doesn't fit the narrative. I'm sure that Russell was just so amazing that having 4 other HOF teammates had nothing to do with getting 11 rings.


:lol :lol :lol

So, how many points Amare hung on TD in the last few playoff series we had against the Suns ? Does that make him the better rank player over TD with all factors considered ?

How many championship or even a series won by Chamberlain over Russel ? You can make cases regarding the embarrassment of riches of that stacked Celtics team, but basketball is a team sport, and individual greatness is also affected by what kinda achievement he had as a team member.

I am not making case about Russel as the undisputed no. 1 ranked center of all time, but i do argue that a top 10 inclusion is very well deserved up to this point considering all of his achievement & success, as a basketball player, and especially, as a winner.

[skulls138]

Anybody arguing against Wilt must not be aware that washed up Wilt held his own against PEAK Kareem when Wilt was playing Timmay's current role (defend/rebound). Which should therefore say something about Bill Russell, Harlem Heat

[skulls138]

u obviously have never seen Moses Malone in his prime play. Just go to youtube and look at a few highlights(though that still will do him no justice). Moses Malone was a fucking beast. I would have put someone like Reed or Hayes over Walton though. He had a 4 or 5 year good run, but that's it. Injuries destroyed his career. He was still able to contribute to Boston in 86, but I just can't see Walton as an all time top 10 center for the few years he was great.If I was starting a team Id pick MM as my starting center. A rebounding, especially offensive, machine with alot of attitude.

[Galileo]

Galileo's authoritative list of these ten re-ranked:

1. The King
2. Russell
3. Shaq
4. The Stilt
5. The Dream
6. Moses
7. Mikan
8. The Admiral
9. Walton
10. Ewing

[Obstructed_View]

Here is my list

1. Hakeem Olajuwon -
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem
4. Wilt
5. Shaq
6. Robinson
7. Moses Malone
8. Sabonis - if only he joined the NBA in his prime, he probably would be much higher on this list
9. Bill Walton - Too bad about the injuries
10.Willis Reed

Even if you're leaning heavily on peak ability, Sabonis deserves to be nowhere near this list. His best season in the NBA was 16 and 10.

[Obstructed_View]

No way I have oneal ahead of Drob moses or hakeem. Yes he was dominant offensively(biggest kid in the neighborhood) but an underwhelming rebounder for his size and rarely played any D. As far as the playoffs I hate kobe but he's the one who got the lakers out the west then shaq would feast on the shit centers in the east. Dont' forget shaq got swept every year to start his career.

I suppose that's correct if you don't take into account the two to three rounds where his team won prior to being swept. :lol

[itzsoweezee]

Moses beat the Showtime Lakers w/ mothafuckin' Calvin Murphy as his wingman:lol & mauled Kareem in the 83 Finals. Dude had 3 regulars season MVPs & was also the best player on an All-Time top 5 team that was the 82-83 Sixers.

Admiral apologist can bitch about him playing w/ All-star ****** :rolleyes & not having clutch shooters like Hakeem:cry but he can't even shine Moses postseason resume, period.

You can look at it this way:
-Admiral: KG
-Moses: Tim

Sorry, but '83 Lakers were not showtime lakers

[Thomas82]

I think it might be helpful to reverse thinking on this. Not thinking "could Russel dominate today"...but, would people like Jordan have even made it to the NBA back then?

When there were no massive scouting combines looking at the potential of 12 yr olds back then. Throwing massive money at anything that looks like it could be a potential star. Grooming, training, funding them every step of the way. There wasn't the entitled mentality of many kids today. Playing Basketball in the NBA wasn't the dream of every kid on the block. It took a special type of person to overcome societal issues of the day and totally commit themselves to something that wasn't even close to providing the rewards for the players as it does now. The single mindedness of those players to play a game that wasn't near as popular as it is now.

How many current NBA players would have even tried or given up early because nobody was pushing them or supporting them? It wasn't winning the lottery back then. It was a different mindset. The NBA players back then not only had to be physically capable of the game...but, overcome many other obstacles like segregation, etc...to do what they had to do. How many of today's players, if they were raised in those times, would even had the fortitude to make it to the NBA? Athletic 6'10" players just didn't start growing in the 90's. They were there in the 50's too. They didn't make it to the NBA. Russell did.

So, you can't compare them. You cannot compare generational players. Because there is so much more going on in each generation outside of just "dribbling the basketball," that determines greatness in those times. You just pick the best of that generation and move on. How they dominated their particular time in history.

And Bill Russell Dominated his generation. 11 rings and 2 NCAA championships. Are you kidding me?? And he did it during some of the most troubled times in our history...which he was an ACTIVE part of as well. Bill Russell would be my number 1 or 2 player. No question about it.

Even tho I've always found him annoying to listen to.... :lol

Good post!!

[Kawhitstorm]

Sorry, but '83 Lakers were not showtime lakers

Call them whatever you like but last I checked the core that constituted the "showtime" Lakers were on the 83 Lakers including Pat Riley.:wakeup

[Kawhitstorm]

Which should therefore say something about Bill Russell, Harlem Heat

Wilt lost DESPITE sonning Russell & finally beat him when he had All-NBA teammates so all it says is that Russell had better teammates.:lol Bob Pettit dropped 50 on Russell in the NBA Finals & beat the 58 Celtics.

[Kawhitstorm]

Hakeem in his 2nd year was serving Kareem something serious, but Kareem gave to him just as he received. You are failing to mention that Karee had just won the finals mvp a year prior as he was 'shitting on" everyone really.

2nd year Hakeem serving Kareem would be the equivalent of 2nd year Tim serving Malone in the 99.:lol

[james evans]

2nd year Hakeem serving Kareem would be the equivalent of 2nd year Tim serving Malone in the 99.:lol
I can agree with that, but even in their primes head to head, neither guy would stop each other.

[james evans]

Call them whatever you like but last I checked the core that constituted the "showtime" Lakers were on the 83 Lakers including Pat Riley.:wakeup
and they had also won 2 titles by 83 and went on to win 3 more during the 80s

[Kawhitstorm]

I can agree with that, but even in their primes head to head, neither guy would stop each other.

The reason Kareem is better is b/c he could still dominate guys like Hakeem despite being past his prime meanwhile Hakeem was getting neutralized by Kemp at the tail end of his prime.

[ErnestLynch]

Laughable.

[james evans]

The reason Kareem is better is b/c he could still dominate guys like Hakeem despite being past his prime meanwhile Hakeem was getting neutralized by Kemp at the tail end of his prime.
I do feel kareem is the greatest center of all time, but playing with magic, worthy, and even byron scott was a hell of a lot easier than playing with an old drexler, kenny smith, and robert horry.

[itzsoweezee]

I do feel kareem is the greatest center of all time, but playing with magic, worthy, and even byron scott was a hell of a lot easier than playing with an old drexler, kenny smith, and robert horry.

He also won a championship in Milwaukee with a 32 year old Oscar Robertson as the second best player, and a bunch of no names.

[james evans]

He also won a championship in Milwaukee with a 32 year old Oscar Robertson as the second best player, and a bunch of no names.
bobby dandridge may not be known, but he was a very good ball player.And Kareem was the baddest man in bball at that time. He wasn't past his prime in 71. I don't know why you and Kawhistorm are debating? I already said it, "i think Kareem is the best center of all time.." what more do yall want me to say? he's personally one of my top 5 player sof all time even though I have always hated the lakers

[spurraider21]

Even if you're leaning heavily on peak ability, Sabonis deserves to be nowhere near this list. His best season in the NBA was 16 and 10.
why are you mentioning his nba years in the same breath as his peak ability?

[SpursIndonesia]

Prime, pre injury Sabonis can challenge top 5 spot in all time NBA C list if he was playing in the league since the beginning. A complete package, from physical, mental, and skill stand point.

[Vito Corleone]

Hakeem got shat on by past prime Kareem:lol

Not sure how you figured that. In the 86 playoffs, Hakeem was the best player on the court in every game.


Kareem put up some monster numbers for a 39 year old but, I wouldn't call a second year player that averaged roughly 33 points, 12 rebounds and 4 blocked shots in the series where Houston won in 5 games getting shat on :lol.

No he didn't. Kareem looked terrible when he was 39, in the end he lost his sky hook and was out there looking like a stiff. I never missed a Lakers game when they were on and it was noticeable how much the game had passed him by.


Hakeem in his 2nd year was serving Kareem something serious, but Kareem gave to him just as he received. You are failing to mention that Karee had just won the finals mvp a year prior as he was 'shitting on" everyone really.

By his second year in the league, it was obvious that Jordan was the best player in the league and Hakeem was 4th behind him, Magic and Bird.


Even if you're leaning heavily on peak ability, Sabonis deserves to be nowhere near this list. His best season in the NBA was 16 and 10.

See my post below


Prime, pre injury Sabonis can challenge top 5 spot in all time NBA C list if he was playing in the league since the beginning. A complete package, from physical, mental, and skill stand point.

I like to look at how good a center was at their peek and mentally simulate how they would fare against one another. I have a harder time doing so with Wilt and Russell because they are the only two I never actually watched play.

With that said, Sabonis, was a beast, an absolute beast. If he were not in the Soviet Union we might have got him here at a young age. Were that to happen he would have been second only to Hakeem during his time here. His physical ability was higher than Patrick Ewing, his basketball skills were on the same level of Dirk Nowitzki, and his basketball IQ was as high as Tim Duncan's. Oh, and his passing skills were off the charts, probably up there with John Stockton.

I would agree, if he were to have come to the NBA when he was say 20, I think he easily would have been a top 5 center.

I have no doubt Sabonis would have been there were his stars aligned just a little differently.

[Big Empty]

Not only was Kareem the best C but probably the best of alltime.

[thiste]

With that said, Sabonis, was a beast, an absolute beast. If he were not in the Soviet Union we might have got him here at a young age. Were that to happen he would have been second only to Hakeem during his time here. His physical ability was higher than Patrick Ewing, his basketball skills were on the same level of Dirk Nowitzki, and his basketball IQ was as high as Tim Duncan's. Oh, and his passing skills were off the charts, probably up there with John Stockton.

I'm curious as to why you would think Hakeem would have been better than Arvydas anyway? Not saying you are necessarily wrong, just wondering what the reasoning is behind it. Of course he schooled other all time great bigs, but as you said, Kareem was way past his prime, Shaq was very young, so you're left with basically Ewing and Robinson.
We know that Hakeem had the ability to play against bigger guys, but he was "only" 6'10, Ewing 6'11, Shaq 7', David 7'1 and Kareem a very thin 7'2.
Sabonis was an athletic 7'4 (with shoes) guy. You've seen how Boban towers over everyone and makes guys like Chandler or Baynes look small compared to him. I think the mere size difference would have been a factor between Hakeem and Arvydas. Even David looked tiny next to him in those Olympics games. Hakeem would have had a hard time defending him at least imho.

What do you think?

[Obstructed_View]

why are you mentioning his nba years in the same breath as his peak ability?

Precisely my point, but the reason I even mentioned it is because VC probably wouldn't be able to justify Walton on the list without some emphasis on peak rather than career. Sabonis had a peak as good as anyone on the list, but like you said, it occurred while he was out of the NBA. 16 and 10 is no slouch of a season, and he was a shell of himself by that point.

[Obstructed_View]

VC, given your emphasis on peak, then Robinson should be higher on the list. Pre-injury he was as good as anyone.

[spurraider21]

Precisely my point, but the reason I even mentioned it is because VC probably wouldn't be able to justify Walton on the list without some emphasis on peak rather than career. Sabonis had a peak as good as anyone on the list, but like you said, it occurred while he was out of the NBA. 16 and 10 is no slouch of a season, and he was a shell of himself by that point.
You said sabonis belongs nowhere on this list because his NBA career high was 16/10

His peak was way above that and I have no issue with somebody calling him a top 10 all time center

[SpursIndonesia]

I'm curious as to why you would think Hakeem would have been better than Arvydas anyway? Not saying you are necessarily wrong, just wondering what the reasoning is behind it. Of course he schooled other all time great bigs, but as you said, Kareem was way past his prime, Shaq was very young, so you're left with basically Ewing and Robinson.
We know that Hakeem had the ability to play against bigger guys, but he was "only" 6'10, Ewing 6'11, Shaq 7', David 7'1 and Kareem a very thin 7'2.
Sabonis was an athletic 7'4 (with shoes) guy. You've seen how Boban towers over everyone and makes guys like Chandler or Baynes look small compared to him. I think the mere size difference would have been a factor between Hakeem and Arvydas. Even David looked tiny next to him in those Olympics games. Hakeem would have had a hard time defending him at least imho.

What do you think?

Well, arguing from the Dream corner, the guy was just a beast defensively, very very good defensive instinct in post defense, help defense, perimeter defense, guard like ability in his younger days. Offensively, umm, even before he had developed the more subtle post moves of his, his athleticism & tremendous footwork allowed him to conquer the paint as good as other greats. I see prime Arvydas as a dominant force offensively & very varied, but defensively, while certainly more than average, was still below the Dream. Sabas MIGHT have been the better offensive player -no matter how preposterous that claim might sound, it has some merit & arguable points, but the bigger margin on the defensive end IMHO tilts the balance toward Olajuwon a little bit more.

EDIT: I would put him alongside Shaq, very dominant offensively but defensively not other worldly. Slightly above DRob because what DRob had been superior as a defender, his offense is just too damn monotone -though in his peak, really worked well with his alien like length & athleticism.

[Obstructed_View]

You said sabonis belongs nowhere on this list because his NBA career high was 16/10

His peak was way above that and I have no issue with somebody calling him a top 10 all time center

He wasn't in the fucking NBA, dude. Stop trying to pick fights where they don't exist.

[wildbill2u]

I'm always surprised when these discussions come up that Artis Gilmore's name isn't in the mix. I went to Basketball Reference and ran a comparison between Artis and Kareem. What do you think?

Totals Glossary · SHARE · Embed · CSV · Export · PRE · LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=abdulka01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#totals::none) · ?



Rk
Player
From
To
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
eFG%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


1
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html)*
1970
1989
1560
625
57446
15837
28307
.559
1
18
.056
15836
28289
.560
.559
6712
9304
.721
2975
9394
17440
5660
1160
3189
2527
4657
38387


2
Artis Gilmore (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html)*
1972
1988
1329
476
47134
9403
16158
.582
3
20
.150
9400
16138
.582
.582
6132
8790
.698
4816
11514
16330
3050
648
3178
3926
4529
24941




Per Game Glossary · SHARE · Embed · CSV · Export · PRE · LINK (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=gilmoar01&p2=abdulka01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=#per_game::none) · ?



Rk
Player
From
To
G
GS
MP
FG
FGA
FG%
3P
3PA
3P%
2P
2PA
2P%
eFG%
FT
FTA
FT%
ORB
DRB
TRB
AST
STL
BLK
TOV
PF
PTS


1
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html)*
1970
1989
1560
625
36.8
10.2
18.1
.559
0.0
0.0
.056
10.2
18.1
.560
.559
4.3
6.0
.721
2.4
7.6
11.2
3.6
0.9
2.6
2.7
3.0
24.6


2
Artis Gilmore (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/gilmoar01.html)*
1972
1988
1329
476
35.5
7.1
12.2
.582
0.0
0.0
.150
7.1
12.1
.582
.582
4.6
6.6
.698
3.6
8.7
12.3
2.3
0.6
2.4
3.1
3.4
18.8


Note that Gilmore's numbers of games is a lot less than Kareem. I think they may be leaving out the ABA numbers?

I think running a comparison between Artis and some of the others on the list might show he belongs in any conversation about centers, eh?

[Kawhitstorm]

I'm always surprised when these discussions come up that Artis Gilmore's name isn't in the mix. I went to Basketball Reference and ran a comparison between Artis and Kareem. What do you think?


A-Train spent the good part of his prime in the ABA.

[Kawhitstorm]

Not sure how you figured that. In the 86 playoffs, Hakeem was the best player on the court in every game.


Bruh, that is exactly my point. 38 year old Kareem dropped 27 per on 50% shooting on the best player in the 86 playoffs. Meanwhile, Hakeem at 33 got outplayed by Kemp.