Is this the Tim Duncan Farewell Tour?

[sasaint]

Wow. At the start of the season I thought he had another year at least left in him. Now I hope he can just play his stellar D for the rest of this season.

It would be fitting for Tim and Kobe to end their careers in the same season - with Kobe dragging his team into the abyss on his personal farewell tour, and Timmy helping his team to another championship before quietly retiring in the offseason. Perfectly contrasting ends to perfectly contrasting careers.

Given his decline, I think it is time to experiment by moving Tim to the second unit and playing West with the first unit.

[lil'mo]

You are dumb

[exstatic]

You are dumb

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Vous est stupide

[Russo21]

Tim has been missing a lot of 'bunnies' this season. Shooting 51% somehow but geez he's missing a lot of layups and little floaters, reminiscent of the one he missed over Battier in the 2013 Finals. Still one of the best big men in the NBA but he has to start knocking down those easy uncontested shots he's been missing.

[tmtcsc]

https://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnIilwuFFFpf2Cc/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/yTVe3xfjFyLIY/giphy.gif

[100%duncan]

https://media.giphy.com/media/xTiTnIilwuFFFpf2Cc/giphy.gif

https://media.giphy.com/media/yTVe3xfjFyLIY/giphy.gif

[Obstructed_View]

Who gives a shit? Timmy doesn't need accolades or adoration. I fully expect to see him walk off the court in the middle of a game sometime next year or the year after, followed quickly by a press release that Duncan has retired and Pop has hired him as an assistant coach.

[SAGirl]

Given his decline, I think it is time to experiment by moving Tim to the second unit and playing West with the first unit.
There will be some trolling here from usual suspects.

I have read your posts and I know you are a true fan and mean this question as an honest talking point.

I think Pop has played Lamarcus as a Center with West as PF when Timmy sits, so Pop is doing his own experimenting. Lamarcus is obviously not as good as Timmy protecting the rim, so Pop prefers to play Timmy with LMA whenever he can and Timmy is having a good game.

Also, the coaching of Boban has picked up. Boban has been up and down and has improved from his preseason appearances, as well as early season, but he's obviously still a project with a lot to learn defensively.

I think Pop will play Tim as he did with Lakers. If he's struggling, he will be benched, but I think in general Pop doesn't think anyone else is ready to provide the defense that Timmy still provides so he will play and if he's struggling Pop will make adjustments.

I want to read others opinions on this too. Its a curious subject bc Timmy complicates spacing as his shot is gone and his PnR is also complicated, bc he sets good screens but they don't have to guard him all the way out in the paint. Almost feels sacrilegeous talking about Timmy this way... :(

[raybies]

There will be some trolling here from usual suspects.

I have read your posts and I know you are a true fan and mean this question as an honest talking point.

I think Pop has played Lamarcus as a Center with West as PF when Timmy sits, so Pop is doing his own experimenting. Lamarcus is obviously not as good as Timmy protecting the rim, so Pop prefers to play Timmy with LMA whenever he can and Timmy is having a good game.

Also, the coaching of Boban has picked up. Boban has been up and down and has improved from his preseason appearances, as well as early season, but he's obviously still a project with a lot to learn defensively.

I think Pop was upset in this Lakers game bc none of his big men were entirely doing well. Timmy struggled and was benched politely. Boban had his chance and he also struggled. Kyle had a chance, he hesitated on taking a shot, plus the unit had bad issues rebounding/defending and he was benched. Rasual did the best bc he was scrappy and hitting his shots, but what really opened the game up was Manu, Patty and Danny playing scrappy defense forcing TO and getting easy baskets. In reality Pop never found a big men combination that worked really well for the bench.

I could share insight about others (the new players are my favorite subjects to talk about), but this thread is about Timmy.

I think Pop will play him as he did with Lakers. If he's struggling, he will be benched, but I think in general Pop doesn't think anyone else is ready to provide the defense that Timmy still provides so he will play and if he's struggling Pop will make adjustments.

I want to read others opinions on this too. Its a curious subject bc Timmy complicates spacing as his shot is gone and his PnR is also complicated, bc he sets good screens but they don't have to guard him all the way out in the paint. Almost feels sacrilegeous talking about Timmy this way... :(

Was thinking the same thing too. Duncan isn't hitting that top of the key shot ever now. In the playoffs that will be exposed. With all the new guys that have their strengths I think you live with the Tony 3 and the Timmy 15footer. That's what I'd do. I love Timmy but I don't think he can possibly do this for one more year. And the more he gets exposed the more it will resonate with him. If he wasn't so dominant on D heck he might of retired already. Do you think he would ever play one more year but off the bench? I think if it came to that he might realize what that means. Teams already see him as a weakness attacking him on pick and rolls and such but he actually defends it pretty well. But just watching him move, he's slowly getting more stiffer lol We'll see though. The playoffs will be the deciding factor and if he wins I think he goes out like Robinson. On top of the world. And if that happens I think manu goes out with him and maybe west. Then it hits me like that thread "too good to be true" we have it good and should just enjoy every second of this cause it's not gonna last forever. We truly are spoiled. Greatest pf of all time. :cry

[sasaint]

There will be some trolling here from usual suspects.

I have read your posts and I know you are a true fan and mean this question as an honest talking point.

I think Pop has played Lamarcus as a Center with West as PF when Timmy sits, so Pop is doing his own experimenting. Lamarcus is obviously not as good as Timmy protecting the rim, so Pop prefers to play Timmy with LMA whenever he can and Timmy is having a good game.

Also, the coaching of Boban has picked up. Boban has been up and down and has improved from his preseason appearances, as well as early season, but he's obviously still a project with a lot to learn defensively.

I think Pop will play Tim as he did with Lakers. If he's struggling, he will be benched, but I think in general Pop doesn't think anyone else is ready to provide the defense that Timmy still provides so he will play and if he's struggling Pop will make adjustments.

I want to read others opinions on this too. Its a curious subject bc Timmy complicates spacing as his shot is gone and his PnR is also complicated, bc he sets good screens but they don't have to guard him all the way out in the paint. Almost feels sacrilegeous talking about Timmy this way... :(

Interesting that nobody has commented at all on my own quote - just my comment.

But one way to look at the Spurs as they have developed over the last several seasons is this: They have 3 units: 1st Unit, 2nd Unit, Finishers. The job of the 1st unit is to beat most of the other first units and hold its own against the others. The job of the 2nd unit is to crush the other team's 2nd unit. The job of the Finishers is to do whatever is necessary to win. Manu found out this long ago, and has been very happy with and excellent at being a crusher. Most of the teams in the league have the opposite mentality: 1st unit is big guns to blow the opponent away; 2nd unit is not so good, so they hope they can just hold their own (most 2nd units are there to not let leads diminish TOO MUCH). Most teams do not have coaching and strategizing like the Spurs do. They have literally turned the game inside out. It is no disgrace to play on the Spurs' 2nd unit.

[sasaint]

Was thinking the same thing too. Duncan isn't hitting that top of the key shot ever now. In the playoffs that will be exposed. With all the new guys that have their strengths I think you live with the Tony 3 and the Timmy 15footer. That's what I'd do. I love Timmy but I don't think he can possibly do this for one more year. And the more he gets exposed the more it will resonate with him. If he wasn't so dominant on D heck he might of retired already. Do you think he would ever play one more year but off the bench? I think if it came to that he might realize what that means. Teams already see him as a weakness attacking him on pick and rolls and such but he actually defends it pretty well. But just watching him move, he's slowly getting more stiffer lol We'll see though. The playoffs will be the deciding factor and if he wins I think he goes out like Robinson. On top of the world. And if that happens I think manu goes out with him and maybe west. Then it hits me like that thread "too good to be true" we have it good and should just enjoy every second of this cause it's not gonna last forever. We truly are spoiled. Greatest pf of all time. :cry

I suspect West returns, period - maybe especially if Tim hangs 'em up.

[raybies]

To answer the question, yes imo this is his farewell tour.

[Spurtacular]

Was thinking the same thing too. Duncan isn't hitting that top of the key shot ever now.

Don't know why people keep bringing this up. Tim stopped shooting the top of the key shot a couple seasons back as the offense was transitioning away from that. Tim rarely takes this type of shot early in the shot clock. If he does, it's in the first or second quarter almost like a warm-up shot.

[SAGirl]

I love Timmy but I don't think he can possibly do this for one more year. And the more he gets exposed the more it will resonate with him. If he wasn't so dominant on D heck he might of retired already. Do you think he would ever play one more year but off the bench? I think if it came to that he might realize what that means. Teams already see him as a weakness attacking him on pick and rolls and such but he actually defends it pretty well. But just watching him move, he's slowly getting more stiffer lol We'll see though. we have it good and should just enjoy every second of this cause it's not gonna last forever. We truly are spoiled. Greatest pf of all time. :cry

I agree with you, he's slowed obviously, but what has surprised me is the number of 3 second violations he still gets called out on, bc he's slow moving in and out of the paint, and even setting screens sometimes. As long as he could get it done in the paint though, Timmy is gold bc of his defense combined with his hook shots, those are unblockable. He's just lately not scoring well, missing stuff he used to make, having trouble with centers (even against Love he struggled except at the end of the game), many centers give him a ton of trouble (Hibbert scoring over him like he's some all-star), he just can't prevent these guys from getting in their spots like he used to. Its tough to see him decline.


But one way to look at the Spurs as they have developed over the last several seasons is this: They have 3 units: 1st Unit, 2nd Unit, Finishers. The job of the 1st unit is to beat most of the other first units and hold its own against the others. The job of the 2nd unit is to crush the other team's 2nd unit. The job of the Finishers is to do whatever is necessary to win. Manu found out this long ago, and has been very happy with and excellent at being a crusher. Most of the teams in the league have the opposite mentality: 1st unit is big guns to blow the opponent away; 2nd unit is not so good, so they hope they can just hold their own (most 2nd units are there to not let leads diminish TOO MUCH). Most teams do not have coaching and strategizing like the Spurs do. They have literally turned the game inside out. It is no disgrace to play on the Spurs' 2nd unit.

That is a nice analysis. I think the unsolvable issue is that no one we have can provide Timmy's rim protection and we are a defensive minded team. I don't think Pop switches him at all. In a way he's like Danny, in the defensive aspect that is. When your best asset is defense, you are probably better with the starting unit, and then strategically reinforcing the bench as needed (Danny's case more as he's younger and can play more, but you get my point).

I am thinking Timmy will retire. I called it in the game thread and I have just had a "feeling" about it. I don't want to be a Debbie Downer or contrarian or anything. It's a legit feeling. It won't go on forever, maybe one more season is what I am telling myself, and I think we all are, but that is a way to deceive yourself from knowing when this one is it.

No matter how much preparation we do, when they retire we are in for a rude awakening. Because they are here, we have drafted and developed a lot of guys that are elsewhere. We will have to develop and live through growing pains, including the very real question Kawhi will have to answer: whether he can really carry this franchise when Tim/Manu retire.

From there on, the youngster we have and the 2 rookies. They have potential but will struggle games. They are no HoF players. That is why its unfair to compare them to Tim/Manu. It will be growing pains. I believe in them, but it will be growing pains.

[SAGirl]

I suspect West returns, period - maybe especially if Tim hangs 'em up.
agree on this. We have loved him and I bet PATFO too.

[Obstructed_View]

Don't know why people keep bringing this up. Tim stopped shooting the top of the key shot a couple seasons back as the offense was transitioning away from that. Tim rarely takes this type of shot early in the shot clock. If he does, it's in the first or second quarter almost like a warm-up shot.

There are about three reasons to take that shot, and those reasons only come up every four or five games.

[Spurtacular]

This thread is shameful, tbh.

[Slomo]

vous êtes stupide

Agree with the opinion, disagree with the grammar :tu

[Gagnrath]

Perhaps. If the Spurs win a ring yes definitely. Otherwise I think that it becomes very dependent on both how he is feeling towards the end of the season and how competitive his play is against the mid level players in the league. I don't see him staying at the point where it becomes a struggle or a good day for him to win hiS head to head matchup with the average starter in the league. He at this point in his career has to put in to much work and suffering with his bad knees to merely be thought of as average.

[Brazil]

Smh

Tim is fine and Spurs are fine... First unit is holding nicely stuff with net positive rating, second unit is tearing apart opponents... Why in hell would you change that to move Tim in second unit ? It is already complicated to integrate in the team LMA, to make room for superstar Kawhi, for players to get used new roles like TP, to develop boban, to fit west into second unit.... Yeah why not middle of the season change again everything and acclimate Tim on second unit... Smh

people have no clue

tim is still among best Spurs player and fans are crying cauz you know he cannot shoot that top of the key shot he doesn't take anymore... Dear god people, use your brain.

for the rest nobody knows what he will do but for as far as I'm concerned he can do the fuck he wants and I'll take this Tim version for another year in a heartbeat

[Agloco]

There are about three reasons to take that shot, and those reasons only come up every four or five games.

I'd argue that those reasons will become more frequent in the playoffs. For the record though, I don't think that shot is broken. More like playing a bit of possum.

[Agloco]

Agree with the opinion, disagree with the grammar :tu

168/7.3 is incapable of making grammatical errors.

[313]

Win or not, I think he retires after this year. Same with Manu. Glad I got to see them live their last time here in Detroit.

[EVAY]

I would like to see Tim come back for another year, and I believe that he is capable of doing it. What I don't know is if he will.

Thus, to the OP question: It may well be. I hope not, but it will be up to him.

Manu? I believe he is going to hang it up after this year. He has hinted in a couple of interviews that it is so much harder to get over the little things (getting knocked around) than it used to be, and he doesn't look like he is having a good time when he is talking about it. I love Manu and would love to see him come back with Timmy next year.

I just have the feeling that neither of them will. Hope to high heaven I am wrong.

[TrainOfThought5]

Win or not, I think he retires after this year. Same with Manu. Glad I got to see them live their last time here in Detroit.

Im strongly considering dropping 1000 dollars on a trip to SA in march for the Spurs Warriors game.

[sasaint]

Smh

Tim is fine and Spurs are fine... First unit is holding nicely stuff with net positive rating, second unit is tearing apart opponents... Why in hell would you change that to move Tim in second unit ? It is already complicated to integrate in the team LMA, to make room for superstar Kawhi, for players to get used new roles like TP, to develop boban, to fit west into second unit.... Yeah why not middle of the season change again everything and acclimate Tim on second unit... Smh

people have no clue

tim is still among best Spurs player and fans are crying cauz you know he cannot shoot that top of the key shot he doesn't take anymore... Dear god people, use your brain.

for the rest nobody knows what he will do but for as far as I'm concerned he can do the fuck he wants and I'll take this Tim version for another year in a heartbeat

In the first place, you seem to be completely overlooking the fact that Pop has played everybody on the team in every conceivable combination, including starting West in Tim's DNP games. The Spurs do much more blending of their units than you acknowledge, acclimating players with players, not units. Second, you fail to acknowledge that LMA and Tim really want to occupy many of the same spots on the floor and are, hence, not particularly complementary pieces in the first unit - more like redundancies. Finally, the team would also benefit from splitting the shorter Diaw/West duo most of the time either is on the floor.

Regardless, I believe more and more that we are witnessing Tim's last season as a player. The team should do everything necessary to maximize his skill and contribution in order to win the championship with this truly historic team. We as fans should appreciate what we've got before it is gone - at this season's end, IMHO.

[sasaint]

Win or not, I think he retires after this year. Same with Manu. Glad I got to see them live their last time here in Detroit.

We Spurs fans have expected that Tim and Manu would ride off into the sunset together. However, I am reconsidering my own hopes. IF Tim is merely going through a slump, it is barely conceivable that he could return next season (when he undoubtedly would be a part of the second unit). However, assuming Tim does retire after this season (as I expect), then Manu has played so well this season (being the difference-maker in several games) that I hope he returns next season for 12-15 minutes/game. It might be an easier transition from the old Big Three to the Spurs TNG if Tim and Manu staggered their retirements.

[will_spurs]

I can't hear your stupid arguments over the sound of Duncan leading the whole NBA in DRPM (and being #7 in RPM).

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

[sasaint]

I can't hear your stupid arguments over the sound of Duncan leading the whole NBA in DRPM (and being #7 in RPM).

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM

I acknowledged his "stellar defense" in my original quote. He continues to be elite. It is on the Offensive end where his decline has seemed precipitous since the beginning of the season. I believe it is a good time for Pop to "experiment" (as I commented) with pairing LMA and West in the first unit and Tim/Boris in the second. I think Pop will probably do that during the Rodeo Road Trip, if not sooner.

I will be as happy as any Spurs fan if what I perceive to be Tim's decline on the offensive end is merely a slump. It does not look like it at this point.

[TrainOfThought5]

I think KA needs one more good year of offseason training and playoff experience before he'll be ready to The field general for the Bench. I have no idea where we'll find a Timmy Replacement.

[Thomas82]

I still don't believe this is his last year. I believe he comes back next year, whether we win it all or not. I know I'm in the minority with this opinion, but I don't mind it.

[sasaint]

I still don't believe this is his last year. I believe he comes back next year, whether we win it all or not. I know I'm in the minority with this opinion, but I don't mind it.

I thought so at the beginning of the season - possibly even two more seasons. But now I don't.

[Obstructed_View]

I'd argue that those reasons will become more frequent in the playoffs. For the record though, I don't think that shot is broken. More like playing a bit of possum.

In the Spurs offense, which is to pass up a good shot for a great shot, that rates nothing better than a good shot, and that's if Duncan's feeling it and the defense leaves him completely alone. Sometimes you take that just to punish the defense for leaving you, or you take it because the shot clock is running down. I've said it several times in the last few years, but Duncan taking that jumper is a sign of the health of the offense. If he takes more than one in a game, they're probably gonna lose.

[sasaint]

I think KA needs one more good year of offseason training and playoff experience before he'll be ready to The field general for the Bench. I have no idea where we'll find a Timmy Replacement.

We will NOT find a Timmy Replacement. That's essentially what LMA was supposed to be. We will need a player to complement LMA and Kawhi. I do not expect Boban to be that player in the starting lineup. I expect Boban to be the center for the second unit indefinitely.

[Thomas82]

I thought so at the beginning of the season - possibly even two more seasons. But now I don't.

I believe he's playing possum right now.

[sasaint]

I believe he's playing possum right now.

I don't think he's "playing possum" by clanking shots - especially the numerous bunnies he has been missing more and more. But I hope you're right. I would like nothing more than for Timmy to regain some of his touch.

[SpursforSix]

Who gives a shit? Timmy doesn't need accolades or adoration. I fully expect to see him walk off the court in the middle of a game sometime next year or the year after, followed quickly by a press release that Duncan has retired and Pop has hired him as an assistant coach.

I'm not looking forward to a day without Tim but I'd love to see him in the bench. Any up and coming big who really wants to get better should want to come to SA and learn from him.

[tmtcsc]

Tim is playing an entirely different role than in the past. It would be great if he made that shot but its not as important as its been the past. Once the playoffs role around, the makes will fall more frequently.

[LoneStarState'sPride]

I try not to think about it (for obvious reasons), but it very well could be.

That's why personally, I'm trying to just enjoy every time I see him on the court now. You know the end will probably be the exact opposite of Kobe's farewell tour: abrupt and not giving us nearly enough time to celebrate his greatness properly.

[jsandiego]

I think his offensive regression is part being old as dirt, and part new offensive role. He's doing his best to get the others' going. He's largely up on the perimeter swinging the ball from one side to another. He's still a great passer, rebounder, and defender, and can still be called upon for a post-up from time to time. His regression, willingness to accept a diminished role, or being unable to fill another role -- whatever the cause, has enabled LMA to have a more seamless transition into this team.

Hard to say if he retires. If he still has the passion for the game, he'll find his role next year and be successful at it. Just like he's doing this year better than any other 39 year old has in NBA history.

[BillMc]

Tim is playing an entirely different role than in the past. It would be great if he made that shot but its not as important as its been the past. Once the playoffs role around, the makes will fall more frequently.

This

[houston spurs fan]

Let's see how he does Monday. The last few games have been blah, you can tell...everyone will be focused and come out playing hard...

[Hemotivo]

Duncan is playin' great; one of the best defensive players in the league

[BillMc]

I wonder if to a certain degree all this rest and a lower usage rate have hurt tim. He doesn't get the chance to get in rhythm like in the past. Of course, this is necessary to preserve him, as the second half of the season will be more brutal. Expect to see more from him in March and April.

Also with LMA and Kawhi taking all these shots, Tim can really focus his energies on defense. And he has been magnificent. For all we know, this new role might extend his career rather than shorten it. It all depends on how much he enjoys this new role and how his body holds up.

[sasaint]

I think his offensive regression is part being old as dirt, and part new offensive role. He's doing his best to get the others' going. He's largely up on the perimeter swinging the ball from one side to another. He's still a great passer, rebounder, and defender, and can still be called upon for a post-up from time to time. His regression, willingness to accept a diminished role, or being unable to fill another role -- whatever the cause, has enabled LMA to have a more seamless transition into this team.

Hard to say if he retires. If he still has the passion for the game, he'll find his role next year and be successful at it. Just like he's doing this year better than any other 39 year old has in NBA history.

You and I probably would disagree about how seamlessly LMA has adjusted to the Spurs' game and his new teammates. I think Timmy's taking a new role is intended to facilitate that transition, but in some ways it has made it difficult. On the offensive end, Tim and LMA really do not mesh well since both like the same spots on the floor. Just look at the pairings analysis, and you will see that LMA and Tim are not the optimal pairing for the team.

Although he is performing at an extremely high level for a 39-year-old, he is still 39 years old! I do not expect him to magically regain his mid-range shot. The question is can he regain his touch around the rim. He is clanking bunnies at an alarming rate. The first shot of the game after the opening tip last night Tim obviously rushed in an awkward way. His last shot of the game was a similar clank. I believe these are not a result of a changed role, but possibly an indication that his knees are finally completely shot, and he is playing on willpower alone.

[sasaint]

I wonder if to a certain degree all this rest and a lower usage rate have hurt tim. He doesn't get the chance to get in rhythm like in the past. Of course, this is necessary to preserve him, as the second half of the season will be more brutal. Expect to see more from him in March and April.

Also with LMA and Kawhi taking all these shots, Tim can really focus his energies on defense. And he has been magnificent. For all we know, this new role might extend his career rather than shorten it. It all depends on how much he enjoys this new role and how his body holds up.

An alternate explanation to your "lower usage" theory is that his knees are finally completely shot, and Tim is playing on willpower alone. Last season Pop gave Tim DNPs, too. Those have not increased much. And he is still getting significant playing time, if less than before. I don't buy the reduced usage theory, but I hope you are right.

[Obstructed_View]

Tim is playing an entirely different role than in the past. It would be great if he made that shot but its not as important as its been the past. Once the playoffs role around, the makes will fall more frequently.

That shot has never been important. When the offense had him taking it more than once a game, the team wasn't any good. He's more useful in the post or passing the ball to someone who can break down the defense.

[sasaint]

Let's see how he does Monday. The last few games have been blah, you can tell...everyone will be focused and come out playing hard...

Not sure Monday will tell us much. We need to see Tim improve his offense consistently. Besides, in some paradoxical way, I think the Dubs feel like they have more to prove against us. Pop will try to win the game, but he will not reveal any wrinkles he may have in mind for a potential post-season confrontation.

[weeks]

Tim was an absolute monster in his most recent playoff game. It looks like he's getting close to the end, but I'm gonna wait and see before shoveling any dirt

[TDfan2007]

I wonder if to a certain degree all this rest and a lower usage rate have hurt tim. He doesn't get the chance to get in rhythm like in the past. Of course, this is necessary to preserve him, as the second half of the season will be more brutal. Expect to see more from him in March and April.

Also with LMA and Kawhi taking all these shots, Tim can really focus his energies on defense. And he has been magnificent. For all we know, this new role might extend his career rather than shorten it. It all depends on how much he enjoys this new role and how his body holds up.

This is a really good point. Obviously, Tim's not a pure shooter. He's always been a rhythm shooter/player. It's hard for guys who are used to taking 12+ shots a game to get adjusted to taking around 5-6. You start pressing and putting more pressure on each shot. Things don't flow as easily.

[TDfan2007]

I acknowledged his "stellar defense" in my original quote. He continues to be elite. It is on the Offensive end where his decline has seemed precipitous since the beginning of the season. I believe it is a good time for Pop to "experiment" (as I commented) with pairing LMA and West in the first unit and Tim/Boris in the second. I think Pop will probably do that during the Rodeo Road Trip, if not sooner.

I will be as happy as any Spurs fan if what I perceive to be Tim's decline on the offensive end is merely a slump. It does not look like it at this point.

He's near the top of the league in post-up efficiency. He's one of the best passing bigs in the league, and he's still one of the best defenders in the league. Not sure what else you'd want from a guy who is almost 40 and playing on half a knee...

If the matchups allow it, he can still score, but against mobile/long bigs (Gortat, Gasols, Bogut) it's probably best for him to move the ball around. It's all about matchups. If he wanted to, he could force shots and average 15+ ppg while shooting around 45%, but he won't. It's not in his DNA.

[sasaint]

He's near the top of the league in post-up efficiency. He's one of the best passing bigs in the league, and he's still one of the best defenders in the league. Not sure what else you'd want from a guy who is almost 40 and playing on half a knee...

If the matchups allow it, he can still score, but against mobile/long bigs (Gortat, Gasols, Bogut) it's probably best for him to move the ball around. It's all about matchups. If he wanted to, he could force shots and average 15+ ppg while shooting around 45%, but he won't. It's not in his DNA.

I am not sure he even has half a knee any more. My concern is two-fold: first, the shots he takes from midrange are often not just misses, but way off the mark; second, and more importantly, Tim is clanking the close-in shots at an alarming rate. If you can, go review the first shot of the game. Tim rushed a shot in a very awkward, almost timid way. He finished the night with a similar clank and shot an abysmal percentage. It seems like a growing trend. Perhaps bill mc is correct about his "rhythm" assessment. If so, the answer would be greater usage, but I am not sure that is something that Tim is physically up to or something that is best for the team.

[Mr. Body]

He's not played much recently and is out of rhythm, though I don't doubt age is a factor.

[Brazil]

In the first place, you seem to be completely overlooking the fact that Pop has played everybody on the team in every conceivable combination, including starting West in Tim's DNP games. The Spurs do much more blending of their units than you acknowledge, acclimating players with players, not units. Second, you fail to acknowledge that LMA and Tim really want to occupy many of the same spots on the floor and are, hence, not particularly complementary pieces in the first unit - more like redundancies. Finally, the team would also benefit from splitting the shorter Diaw/West duo most of the time either is on the floor.

Regardless, I believe more and more that we are witnessing Tim's last season as a player. The team should do everything necessary to maximize his skill and contribution in order to win the championship with this truly historic team. We as fans should appreciate what we've got before it is gone - at this season's end, IMHO.

:rolleyes In the first place (and btw no need to go further) experiment some line ups and changing starting line up when a player is not available (duh) is quite different than effectively changing the standard rotation... I'll give you the fact you are respectful and your posts are profanity free but your arguments are quite badly rounded and not convincing to say the least

[spursistan]

I wonder if to a certain degree all this rest and a lower usage rate have hurt tim. He doesn't get the chance to get in rhythm like in the past. Of course, this is necessary to preserve him, as the second half of the season will be more brutal. Expect to see more from him in March and April.

Also with LMA and Kawhi taking all these shots, Tim can really focus his energies on defense. And he has been magnificent. For all we know, this new role might extend his career rather than shorten it. It all depends on how much he enjoys this new role and how his body holds up.
I think it did..Pop has overrested him to the point he is having 4/5 days between games now..Hard to get rhythm and you're bound to mess up muscle memory as you can see with too many missed bunnies lately.. I would rather have him out there for 15-17 minutes than a complete DNP..I hope Pop ram up his usage a bit ..

[SAGirl]

I think KA needs one more good year of offseason training and playoff experience before he'll be ready to The field general for the Bench. I have no idea where we'll find a Timmy Replacement.


I thought so at the beginning of the season - possibly even two more seasons. But now I don't.
He had a tough game last night but he was shooting 68% for January before that game, so it was bound to happen that he would miss some shots, and the shots he took were not good shots for him. He took a desperation 3 at the buzzer off the bounce. That wasn't going to go in, those are not shots he can make at this point in his career, but its ok that he took it context considered.

He made I thought a couple of ill advised drives, when he might have been better off taking a mid range shot, which he is very good at, but I think playing at the 4, he was not sure he could get separation enough to guarantee his shot wasn't going to be blocked and they were playing him close. Just shows he's a project as a 4 I guess, playing guys that are 6'10 is out of his comfort zone. You can't send him down to the dleague to learn that either, bc there are very few guys that height there and they play him as centers too and he dominated those guys. This is one of those areas he has to learn by trial and error.

For the garbage time crew last night, I think they were thrown out of whack by Ray doing a poor job running the point.

Ray often doesn't recognize shots for guys. He is not very successful at calling sets or getting guys in good spots and he often misses opportunities or mismatches early in the shot clock. I think you can hide him with the starters or with the better players in the team bc he plays well enough off other people, but if you give him the ball to run the point, call sets, get shots for guys, he isn't very good, or at least he wasn't this past game.

There was one sequence Kyle had good post up position very early in the shot clock bc he ran in transition and put his defender on his back, but his effort was screwed up because Ray didn't recognize it and instead ran into the paint dragging his man with him and going into the corner right in front of Kyle, while Kyle was in a post up position. That was super dumb and I think it is things like that which have caused Pop to send him to the dleague. That sequence ended up in a contested Ray mid range shot.

In other sequences, Ray failed to call out sets, attempting to do things on his own running PnR with Boban that didn't go anywhere and then giving Kyle or Simmons the ball with little time in the shot clock so they would bail out bad possessions. I don't like that about Ray. He doesn't put other guys in spots to take good shots, and if he's going to give them the ball, he should do it with more time so they guys can call a proper play for themselves.

Simmons was successful making a jumpshot off a screen (nothing to do with Ray setting him up or even calling a play), but he also missed a contested shot at the rim that he had to force up bc Ray gave him the ball with little time to do anything else. Kyle was put in the same spot. I think Kyle has been successful bailing possessions out with his jumpshot (he has a very nice midrange game), but he wasn't in good spots in this game, or with sufficient time to call out a proper set. I also thought Kyle was the only one looking to still play team ball instead of freelancing, just there was little off the ball movement bc guys didn't even know what the heck they were doing.

Can't judge Kyle based on last game, maybe Ray either, but I do think Ray is limited TBH.

[wingster]

I still think he'll hang it up after the 2016-17 season.

[Horse]

He's missed some easy shots but I think it's more important that he's getting such easy shots they will fall. If we go on to win a championship you can bet at some point he got that look in his eyes and put us on his back through some of the tough times.

[sasaint]

My comment that you quote was about Tim. I'm not even sure why BillMc made that comment about Kyle in this thread.

[sasaint]

:rolleyes In the first place (and btw no need to go further) experiment some line ups and changing starting line up when a player is not available (duh) is quite different than effectively changing the standard rotation... I'll give you the fact you are respectful and your posts are profanity free but your arguments are quite badly rounded and not convincing to say the least

I obviously believe my 2nd and 3rd points were worth writing, and others have expressed the opinion that pairing LMA and West and also NOT pairing Diaw and West are good ideas. But, I, too, thank you for your civility. We will just have to agree to disagree and see how it all shakes out. I hope Timmy is, indeed, just going through a slump or is suffering from memory loss due to low usage. Some of his missed bunnies lately - especially last night did not appear to be memory loss, however. Especially the first blown shot looked odd and awkward. :toast

[BillMc]

My comment that you quote was about Tim. I'm not even sure why BillMc made that comment about Kyle in this thread.

What comment about Kyle did I make in this thread?

[letmk]

From what I see (I didn't watch the last two weeks' games), he is just going easy. Maybe he could not play like the best Spur as in the Clippers series, but he is from done. For Timmy, everything is about playoffs.

[SAGirl]

My comment that you quote was about Tim. I'm not even sure why BillMc made that comment about Kyle in this thread.


What comment about Kyle did I make in this thread?
Think that was Train of Thought.
I got sidetracked.
Back to the topic.

I think both Tim and Manu can do another year, but we can't take them for granted. Manu looks like a renewed player, but I think its just having all these new players to train and enjoy playing with plus a better team has him very engaged this season. He has talked about the grind of the season, the bumps, etc. and he was really torn over the summer on whether to come back or not.

For Tim, I think he loves the game so much that he will play until the wheels fall off. The delicate issue is recognizing "when they are falling off at last".

I am not sure if the issue really is Tim's knee (could be rhythm or what other guys stated) but it could very well be the knee. He was rested late Decenber due to knee soreness, and everyone assumes Pop is being CIA Pop about those things and wanting to give young guys experience, but there is not a total dishonesty. It would not be out of the question that he has indeed knee soreness. It might even be always there and just flares or not.

[will_spurs]

It's clear that the Diaw+West combo might not be the most desirable. But this team is all about defense and Tim is still the anchor on that end. That he doesn't contribute so much on O any more isn't that important. There are many other options on this team for that, and I'm sure he's still going to dominate a bad match-up if the case arises. In the meanwhile his help D is invaluable for the starting unit.

[spursfaninla]

It's clear that the Diaw+West combo might not be the most desirable. But this team is all about defense and Tim is still the anchor on that end. That he doesn't contribute so much on O any more isn't that important. There are many other options on this team for that, and I'm sure he's still going to dominate a bad match-up if the case arises. In the meanwhile his help D is invaluable for the starting unit.

Agreed.

Duncan is dominant on d this season. We have the 3rd rated offense per ESPN Offensive Efficiency rating. Don't need him on offense.

[jsandiego]

I am not sure he even has half a knee any more. My concern is two-fold: first, the shots he takes from midrange are often not just misses, but way off the mark; second, and more importantly, Tim is clanking the close-in shots at an alarming rate. If you can, go review the first shot of the game. Tim rushed a shot in a very awkward, almost timid way. He finished the night with a similar clank and shot an abysmal percentage. It seems like a growing trend. Perhaps bill mc is correct about his "rhythm" assessment. If so, the answer would be greater usage, but I am not sure that is something that Tim is physically up to or something that is best for the team.
You may be right about the missed bunnies, but do we have stats to back it up? I mean, if the guy is taking less shots because he's distributing the ball at the top of the key instead of banging down low, but still has a high conversion rate on post-ups, maybe his offensive regression has more to do with role and less to do with physical ability.

The eye test says he's slowing a bit, but defensively he's still an elite rim-protector and outlet passer. But I'm just not sure how much is him, and how much is his role. He's not going to score 15ppg in his role. LMA is barely getting 17ppg after a slow start. And Duncan is around 8ppg after scoring more earlier in the season.

[ajh18]

I'm not sure I'm seeing this "precipitous" drop-off people are talking about.

Looking at Tim's offensive stats:

1) His true shooting percentage is down a bit from last year, but higher than '13-'14, '11-'12, '10-'11, '05-'06, or '03-'04. In fact, it's just .007 points lower than his career average, .544 vs .551.

2) Per-36, his scoring average is down to 12.3 pts, but that's on just 5.1 shots. So his pts/shot is 2.41, compared to last year when he was at 2.54. So a bit of a drop, but nothing crazy.

3) His usage is the main thing that's way down, and that's likely an intentional move to defer to LMA and Kawhi. He's down to 17.3, the only time under 20 in his career.

4) Instead of using that energy on offense, he's using it on defense... hence, leading the league in DRPM, and topping all centers in RPM.

I think Tim is very intentionally shifting his role, to still feel relevant in the new Team's structure. Not unlike what David did with him. And since he wants to play "till the wheels fall off," I think that his ability to be successful in this new role (which clearly he is) can really help him extend his career another year or two.

[dafonearth]

No, he's missing the shot because he rarely takes it. He also thinks about it too much and then decides to take it because he knows there are better shots for the team. So it's just an out-of-rhythm shot for him right now.

He's missing layups for the same reason. He's just not getting a lot of looks on offense so he's out of rhythm. It's as simple as that.

[SupremeGuy]

Don't you even fucking say it. :cry

[SAGirl]

691342511361536000

[spursistan]

I seriously hope this knee thing doesn't become an ISSUE that deteriorates swiftly especially in old age ..something not right there..

[KenziE]

Wow all this disecting of the GPFOAT's game


CIA Tim is coasting this will be a good bump once the playoffs starts tbh

[SAGirl]

The West signing in the off-season starting to look mighty key.

[HarlemHeat37]

The West signing in the off-season starting to look mighty key.

Yep, especially since he's really blossoming in his role, after a shaky start to the season..

Boris's resurgence has been huge, too, as he was pretty shitty, last year..

[sasaint]

What comment about Kyle did I make in this thread?

Sorry, BillMc, comment was made by another poster. Then SAGirl apparently connected my comment about Tim with the stray comment about KA, and wrote her "garbage time" essay, which was a disconnect for me.

[sasaint]

I'm not sure I'm seeing this "precipitous" drop-off people are talking about.

Looking at Tim's offensive stats:

1) His true shooting percentage is down a bit from last year, but higher than '13-'14, '11-'12, '10-'11, '05-'06, or '03-'04. In fact, it's just .007 points lower than his career average, .544 vs .551.

2) Per-36, his scoring average is down to 12.3 pts, but that's on just 5.1 shots. So his pts/shot is 2.41, compared to last year when he was at 2.54. So a bit of a drop, but nothing crazy.

3) His usage is the main thing that's way down, and that's likely an intentional move to defer to LMA and Kawhi. He's down to 17.3, the only time under 20 in his career.

4) Instead of using that energy on offense, he's using it on defense... hence, leading the league in DRPM, and topping all centers in RPM.

I think Tim is very intentionally shifting his role, to still feel relevant in the new Team's structure. Not unlike what David did with him. And since he wants to play "till the wheels fall off," I think that his ability to be successful in this new role (which clearly he is) can really help him extend his career another year or two.

Year to date stats are not really relevant to the discussion. The "problem" has only really manifested itself in the last few weeks. I agree with all of your bolded remarks, I just do not see his career being extended beyond this season at this point. The fact that he will get a DNP against the Dubs for his sore knee only reinforces my concern. I fear that the wheels are, indeed, falling off.

[sasaint]

Yep, especially since he's really blossoming in his role, after a shaky start to the season..

Boris's resurgence has been huge, too, as he was pretty shitty, last year..

Agreed. If Timmy really is seriously hurting. Both of those guys will be key to our championship chances - even Boban will need to step up his game/minutes some. But didn't Boris shoot threes better last year? Although I think he has been shooting better since the early season.

[HarlemHeat37]

Agreed. If Timmy really is seriously hurting. Both of those guys will be key to our championship chances - even Boban will need to step up his game/minutes some. But didn't Boris shoot threes better last year? Although I think he has been shooting better since the early season.

His shooting numbers are waaay up from last season, and so are his overall metrics..

59% True Shooting % vs. 52.6% TS from last year

[sasaint]

His shooting numbers are waaay up from last season, and so are his overall metrics..

59% True Shooting % vs. 52.6% TS from last year

Just hope he continues to play at his current high level in all phases.

[T_L_P]

This thread is shameful, tbh.

Nah, didn't you hear? Despite being one of the best defenders in the NBA and only making $5 million, while being the most selfless player in the NBA, he needs to go to the bench. We're simply better with him there, since he's no good anymore. :lobt2:

[Spurtacular]

Nah, didn't you hear? Despite being one of the best defenders in the NBA and only making $5 million, while being the most selfless player in the NBA, he needs to go to the bench. We're simply better with him there, since he's no good anymore. :lobt2:

Duncan could play at a good level for two more years after this. I think it's more likely than not that he'll play next year. Even Manu is looking re-energized and likely to play next year, imo. But guards fall off a cliff like Ray Allen did; so, we'll see.

[jdelar03]

Duncan will be the next player/coach to win the championship since bill russell. 😎

[The Reckoning]

Duncan's going to play until the wheels come off then he'll coach off the bench

[ajh18]

His shooting numbers are waaay up from last season, and so are his overall metrics..

59% True Shooting % vs. 52.6% TS from last year

Basketball Reference has his TS% at .544 this year compared to .560 last year and .551 for his career...

[HarlemHeat37]

Basketball Reference has his TS% at .544 this year compared to .560 last year and .551 for his career...

We're talking about Boris, bro..

[SAGirl]

BUMP...
TD confirming farewell tours are not his thing.
http://www.basketballinsiders.com/tim-duncan-wants-no-kobe-type-farewell-tour/

Watching all this (Kobe Bryant tributes) from afar, another future Hall of Famer (Tim Duncan) decided that type of farewell tour is not for him.“Not my deal,” Tim Duncan said. “Not my style.”
Know this for certain: When Duncan calls it quits, there will be no long goodbye.

Not really news bc he has said this b4, but just a reminder to enjoy these guys play.

[SAGirl]

Another hindsight thread.