Danny Green has made himself expendable.

[SilverSpur]

Danny Green has played himself into a trade. He consistly turns over the ball and has lost his 3pt shot.
I would trade him and a pick for Jimmy Butler, if we can fit him under the cap.

[Robz4000]

7/10

[Arcadian]

We can't have the best player at every position, lol...SG is our weakest position this year, and we have to live with that. The frontcourt has to make up for it.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

I told you we should have kept Belli. The league is all about ball movment now and greens limitations have been exposed.

[HarlemHeat37]

Green was fine, he only had 1 turnover and made his only 3-point attempt..also, Jimmy Butler has become a borderline superstar, OP:lol

[HarlemHeat37]

I told you we should have kept Belli. The league is all about ball movment now and greens limitations have been exposed.

Yes, the league changed in 6 months:lol and Beli can't even get consistent minutes for a lottery team..

[RD2191]

I told you we should have kept Belli. The league is all about ball movment now and greens limitations have been exposed.

Crofl. Kill yourself, faggot.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Yes, the league changed in 6 months:lol and Beli can't even get consistent minutes for a lottery team..



Crofl. Kill yourself, faggot.

STFU Sybil.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Green was fine, he only had 1 turnover and made his only 3-point attempt..also, Jimmy Butler has become a borderline superstar, OP:lol


Green has has sucked all season. Keep up with current events.

[Spurtacular]

I love Green; but he needs to come off the bench 'til he gets his sh** together.

[Texas_Ranger]

He sucked for the last 4 months.

[Spurtacular]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/article/media_slots/photos/000/921/423/DannyGreenThree_original_original.gif?1371499238

[HarlemHeat37]

Green has has sucked all season. Keep up with current events.

He has been bad, this season, but this thread is strangely timed, since he was like #10 on the blame list for tonight's game

Tell us how Kyle Anderson is better than Kawhi, again:lol

[LongtimeSpursFan]

He has been bad, this season, but this thread is strangely timed, since he was like #10 on the blame list for tonight's game

Tell us how Kyle Anderson is better than Kawhi, again:lol

Kawhi -19. Big Players make Big Shots in Big Games.

[kobyz]

lol only now people starting to see danny is a scrub and that we must have a trade...

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Green and Anderson for a 2nd rounder, a goat, and a bag of Doritos... DO IT MITCH!

[Spurs9]

:lol thinking bulls would trade butler for green

[steeledl]

Danny for butler.. Do you not watch basketball ?

[cjw]

More like you'd have to trade Danny AND LMA for Butler and one of their other bigs. Never would happen anyway.

[james evans]

my main problem with green other than he can't even hit an open 3 anymore is how does he continues to get beat to the basket on back door cuts?

[james evans]

Kawhi -19. Big Players make Big Shots in Big Games.
-19 doesn't reflect shots you hit. he ws 4-6 with 16 points. U still don't know how the analytics work yet on the +/-

[Nathan89]

I'd trade LMA before I trade Green. You're an idiot for thinking we could get Butler though.

[Mikeanaro]

Simmons looked good on Curry, DG on the other hand is a tad slower to D Chimicurry.

[HarlemHeat37]

Simmons looked good on Curry, DG on the other hand is a tad slower to D Chimicurry.
Simmons was the worst defender outside of Mills and Parker tonight, tbh:lol

He was pretty terrible after the 1st half

[LongtimeSpursFan]

-19 doesn't reflect shots you hit. he ws 4-6 with 16 points. U still don't know how the analytics work yet on the +/-


Maybe you don't understand the gist of what I'm trying to say. If you wanna be the alpha then you better show up in all game. In a game of thei magnitude Curry clearly shows why he is the MVP of this league. And it ain't even close.

[LongtimeSpursFan]

Danny Green needs to change his name to Danny Yellow.

[Mikeanaro]

Simmons was the worst defender outside of Mills and Parker tonight, tbh:lol

He was pretty terrible after the 1st half
Yes, and thats not saying anything good about DG you get my point.

[james evans]

Maybe you don't understand the gist of what I'm trying to say. If you wanna be the alpha then you better show up in all game. In a game of thei magnitude Curry clearly shows why he is the MVP of this league. And it ain't even close.
16 points on 6 shots. shooting 67% and benched most of the 2nd half. Is there something I'm not understanding u saw tonight that we all didn't? I'm listening

[gambit1990]

the title of this thread isn't a lie.

however:
-he has shown to be clutch
-his contract is... a bargain

for those reasons i'm hesitant to give up on him.

you could also replace "danny green" with "tony parker".

would not be against packaging the two of them. there's trade value in them/their contracts.

[gambit1990]

DG was #1 in blocks among guards the past two years iirc.

where is he this season? his defense hasn't looked as good.

[ViceCity86]

Danny Green needs to change his name to Danny Yellow.

Danny Red-Stopped being a good player

[HarlemHeat37]

JDpImY-ya7w

Just 9 months ago, had a huge season, and now he's a scrub

#ChangingthesystemforLaChokerAldridge

[DenialTwist]

We can't have the best player at every position, lol...SG is our weakest position this year, and we have to live with that. The frontcourt has to make up for it.

Um, the spurs backcourt is the weakest tandem in the NBA. Parker + Green, meh on defense, turnover prone and can't shoot, not a great recipe for success.

[TheMulletMan3000]

Danny Green has played himself into a trade. He consistly turns over the ball and has lost his 3pt shot.
I would trade him and a pick for Jimmy Butler, if we can fit him under the cap.

We should trade Danny for Butler, Parker for Westbrook and LMA for prime Karl Malone.

[gambit1990]

like i said, i still haven't given up on green... but: http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=hxwqlqr

[Pauleta14]

Danny Green has played himself into a trade. He consistly turns over the ball and has lost his 3pt shot.
I would trade him and a pick for Jimmy Butler, if we can fit him under the cap.

:lol

Yeh the Bulls are gonna get rid of their best player for DG...

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Green did a good job on Klay last night. Don't blame him that Parker sucked balls last night. Don't blame him that GS gets away with moving screen after moving screen. They finally called one on Bogut when he pushed Green in the back last night. Seriously, Bogut, HB, Green and Curry should have fouled out by the 3rd quarter. I am not being a bitch about it. I thought OKC was bad, but last night was far worse. How do you get away with obvious push offs and then call a foul on LMA when he has his hands straight in the air and didn't even TOUCH GREEN on his shot.

It was a frustrating game to watch b/c of the refs.

[MVPCues]

Anybody have a clue what Green works on during practice? I can't help but wonder if there is a season long experiment with Green to try and develop another skillset which has screwed with his 3%. I have not seen Pop chew him out for the failed drive and penetrate and pull up attempts. Is he getting a pass because that is what they are working on? I wonder if late in the season and playoffs that experiment will be postponed and he gets back to strictly 3D.

[still.focused]

Green was fine, he only had 1 turnover and made his only 3-point attempt..also, Jimmy Butler has become a borderline superstar, OP:lol

Its the exact same turnover he has every game
I could care less about the actual number of TOs
The fact that hes scared bothers me a whole lot
I legitimately find it hard to root for someone who looks, acts & plays all terrified

[sasaint]

Anybody have a clue what Green works on during practice? I can't help but wonder if there is a season long experiment with Green to try and develop another skillset which has screwed with his 3%. I have not seen Pop chew him out for the failed drive and penetrate and pull up attempts. Is he getting a pass because that is what they are working on? I wonder if late in the season and playoffs that experiment will be postponed and he gets back to strictly 3D.

Yes, SAGirl and I have both discussed how Pop was experimenting with Danny in the first part of the season. He was definitely NOT freelancing. But in the last couple of weeks, to my eyes, he has cut back on the drives and tried to find his rhythm on the 3-ball. We can only hope he regains it, but I am not sure he will, or regain his defensive intensity, either.

Don't know how many posters noticed a play last night when Simmons, in the middle of the floor passed the ball to Danny on the wing at mid court to lead the break. :lol

[TheGreatYacht]

People are still defending this dude :lol He's 28, forget about him ever developing other parts of his game. It's only going to get worse.

It's almost February and he's still going toe to toe with Kobe as the least efficient SG in the league. Oh and his defense hasn't been that great to neglect his shittiness on the other side.

Green - 36.1fg%, 33.5 3P%, 80FT%
Bryant - 34.7fg%, 24.9 3P%, 78.4FT%

[TheGreatYacht]

He was a bargain for how well he played last year, but this season he has to be near the top of most overpaid players in the league.

Don't think we'll get anyone worth taking the risk for, so let's just keep him and hope he can improve. Start Simmons to let him know that his starting spot ain't guaranteed. Kind of like we did with Belinelli

[Chinook]

People are still defending this dude :lol He's 28, forget about him ever developing other parts of his game. It's only going to get worse.

It's almost February and he's still going toe to toe with Kobe as the least efficient SG in the league. Oh and his defense hasn't been that great to neglect his shittiness on the other side.

Green - 36.1fg%, 33.5 3P%, 80FT%
Bryant - 34.7fg%, 24.9 3P%, 78.4FT%

I mean, if you're going to argue that he's not been better recently because his average for the year is still horrible, then I guess you can do that. But he's been shooting 45 percent from three since January. The issue hasn't been his accuracy from three lately; it's been him getting touches in places where he's comfortable.

[TheGreatYacht]

I mean, if you're going to argue that he's not been better recently because his average for the year is still horrible, then I guess you can do that. But he's been shooting 45 percent from three since January. The issue hasn't been his accuracy from three lately; it's been him getting touches in places where he's comfortable.
Pop is using him the worst way possible. He shouldn't be the guy doing entry passes or the guy with the ball when they're running the loop. I've never seen a player run the P&R worse than him.

Danny Green on offense: where opposing guards go to rest

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Pop is using him the worst way possible. He shouldn't be the guy doing entry passes or the guy with the ball when they're running the loop. I've never seen a player run the P&R worse than him.

Danny Green on offense: where opposing guards go to rest

Not last year. Green use to constantly run around like JJ Redick. That is how he got open. Now he stands around gets a pass and drives. Green is not that type of player. He is a pick and pop player. I think Pop needs to scrub the New Green experiment and go back to what worked, help the Spurs get to a WCF and two Finals.

[TheGreatYacht]

Not last year. Green use to constantly run around like JJ Redick. That is how he got open. Now he stands around gets a pass and drives. Green is not that type of player. He is a pick and pop player. I think Pop needs to scrub the New Green experiment and go back to what worked, help the Spurs get to a WCF and two Finals.
Agreed. That's the reason I'm a little hesitant on him being traded, he's being used wrong. Start Simmons though

[midnightpulp]

He is what he is. Bruce Bowen 2.0. A D-league level talent player who maxed out his 3 and D abilities.

[Chinook]

Pop is using him the worst way possible. He shouldn't be the guy doing entry passes or the guy with the ball when they're running the loop. I've never seen a player run the P&R worse than him.

Danny Green on offense: where opposing guards go to rest

It actually makes a lot of sense for him to do the entry passes. He's not bad at them (and I have no idea why people think he is), and the guy doing the entry pass is the one who is mostly likely to be doubled off. So his gravity should keep defenses honest. And for the most part, that happens.

The Loop makes sense, because you don't need a driver. He has plenty of outlets if he gets smothered. You'd rather have Leonard in a position where he could get a post entry rather than having him holding the ball behind the line.

[Chinook]

He is what he is. Bruce Bowen 2.0. A D-league level talent player who maxed out his 3 and D abilities.

I mean, you can keep saying that all you want, but it's not going to become more true. Jimmer is a d-league talent. He literally lacks the natural skill to play in the league. Not being able to dribble well doesn't take away shooting and ALL OF THE ASPECTS of defense that you're trying to boil down into one "skill".

Is he going to develop into a significantly better player? No. But that didn't stop him from being one of the top 50-70 players in the whole league last year and the year before that. And that's no where near "d-league talent".

[ElNono]

As I said a few months back, Pop might want to play around with changing the SL a bit if Danny can't shake off that slump and Tony regresses back to a non-penetrating guard, especially with LMA being generally passive in the offense.

Even with Danny the spacing is all fucked up, and penetration is non-existent. Kawhi is more of a postup than penetrator too.

Even if we argue that Danny is the superior player vs Simmons, there's sometimes good reasons to play the other guy in certain lineups, depending on what that player does best. Simmons is just the guy with the quicker step breaking down defenses, and if that's what the SL needs, then it makes sense to give it a shot.

The tricky part though is that even with the struggles this team is arguably better than every other team but the Dubs. So it's difficult to really asses better/worse when you're not playing them all the time.

[Chinook]

You can sit Green against any other team if you want, but you don't sit him against GS. He was worth his weight just by not being Simmons on D.

[ElNono]

You can sit Green against any other team if you want, but you don't sit him against GS. He was worth his weight just by not being Simmons on D.

I don't care Simmons making mistakes these particular games. That's part of growing up playing against much better competition.
I'm with Pop that I liked his aggressiveness and activity much more than anybody else on the team last night.

Again, in a vacuum, that doesn't make him better than Danny.

The thing with Sims though is that he isn't the young Jax kind of guy that just takes the bull by the balls and just elevates everything at a given time. He's aiming to please right now, and so he would need a longer leash if he were to get a more prominent role.

[skulls138]

:lol

Yeh the Bulls are gonna get rid of their best player for DG...He did say "and a pick". That makes all the difference. :rolleyes

[Chinook]

I don't care Simmons making mistakes these particular games. That's part of growing up playing against much better competition.
I'm with Pop that I liked his aggressiveness and activity much more than anybody else on the team last night.

Again, in a vacuum, that doesn't make him better than Danny.

The thing with Sims though is that he isn't the young Jax kind of guy that just takes the bull by the balls and just elevates everything at a given time. He's aiming to please right now, and so he would need a longer leash if he were to get a more prominent role.

Understandable, and that makes sense against the other 28 teams (I guess 27 since OKC is there with GS). But Danny is so necessary against the Warriors that it's not even funny. He's not just a better player in general than Simmons -- he was better last night. Aggressive or not, Simmons just isn't a very good defender. And he's a bad offensive play against the Warriors because he's a turnover machine against any pressure. And that comes from him not being very good at dribbling, not from him "making mistakes".

[ElNono]

Understandable, and that makes sense against the other 28 teams (I guess 27 since OKC is there with GS). But Danny is so necessary against the Warriors that it's not even funny. He's not just a better player in general than Simmons -- he was better last night. Aggressive or not, Simmons just isn't a very good defender. And he's a bad offensive play against the Warriors because he's a turnover machine against any pressure. And that comes from him not being very good at dribbling, not from him "making mistakes".

I think that's far from settled. On defense, I would take Danny any time of the day. But with other factors at play on offense (mostly inability to penetrate), starting Sims or even Manu might make more sense. Plus Danny has exactly the same problems with his handles under pressure, doesn't have the quick first step, and sometimes screws up not even trying to dribble the ball. So that's still an upgrade in that department, IMO.

[Chomag]

Got to admit that he hasnt been the same player ever since he got his contract. Its pretty worrisome.

[midnightpulp]

I mean, you can keep saying that all you want, but it's not going to become more true. Jimmer is a d-league talent. He literally lacks the natural skill to play in the league. Not being able to dribble well doesn't take away shooting and ALL OF THE ASPECTS of defense that you're trying to boil down into one "skill".

Is he going to develop into a significantly better player? No. But that didn't stop him from being one of the top 50-70 players in the whole league last year and the year before that. And that's no where near "d-league talent".

In terms of natural talent, Danny is very much D-league. It's why guys like him and Bowen typically bounce around as journeymen, European pro ball, etc. Danny can't dribble, can't finish, and can't play-make, so his only utility is as a spot up shooter and defender, skills that can be learned through hard work and game study. Guys like Danny and Bowen are actually examples of how far hard work can get you as a pro athlete, and both found the right environment that is the best in pro sports at maximizing a player's skillset.

Don't think I'm in favor of benching Danny, trading him, starting Simmons over him, I'm simply pointing out that his struggles have nothing to do with LMA, system adjustment, and the host of the other thousand excuses people are making for him, and everything to do with his natural limitations.

[ElNono]

In terms of natural talent, Danny is very much D-league. It's why guys like him and Bowen typically bounce around as journeymen, European pro ball, etc. Danny can't dribble, can't finish, and can't play-make, so his only utility is as a spot up shooter and defender, skills that can be learned through hard work and game study. Guys like Danny and Bowen are actually examples of how far hard work can get you as a pro athlete, and both found the right environment that is the best in pro sports at maximizing a player's skillset.

Don't think I'm in favor of benching Danny, trading him, starting Simmons over him, I'm simply pointing out that his struggles have nothing to do with LMA, system adjustment, and the host of the other thousand excuses people are making for him, and everything to do with his natural limitations.

He embodies 3&D, tbh... it's not a bad thing, he's an elite defender most of the time. I think Pop gave him a longer leash this season to see what else he had in-between, but I also think Pop is going to tighten that leash sooner rather than later.
That doesn't make him a bad player, or a guy like kobe that steals his salary, etc. He's just who he is, and as much as I wanted him to improve that middle-game, I'm more and more convinced he just doesn't have it in him.

[midnightpulp]

He embodies 3&D, tbh... it's not a bad thing, he's an elite defender most of the time. I think Pop gave him a longer leash this season to see what else he had in-between, but I also think Pop is going to tighten that leash sooner rather than later.
That doesn't make him a bad player, or a guy like kobe that steals his salary, etc. He's just who he is, and as much as I wanted him to improve that middle-game, I'm more and more convinced he just doesn't have it in him.

Yep. And the Spurs were able to mask Bowen's offensive limitations on the perimeter since Parker and Manu were in their primes. We didn't need Bowen to do much else but sit in the corner and play maddog defense. Parker and Manu are no longer a guaranteed 35-40 combined points like they once were, which puts a huge burden on Danny to try and carry the starting back-court scoring.

[Chinook]

In terms of natural talent, Danny is very much D-league. It's why guys like him and Bowen typically bounce around as journeymen, European pro ball, etc. Danny can't dribble, can't finish, and can't play-make, so his only utility is as a spot up shooter and defender, skills that can be learned through hard work and game study. Guys like Danny and Bowen are actually examples of how far hard work can get you as a pro athlete, and both found the right environment that is the best in pro sports at maximizing a player's skillset.

Again, defense is half of the freaking game, and there are a lot of different aspects to it. So equating that to play-making is silly. There are literally NBA players who can do one aspect of defense, like Hassan Whiteside. That he can get steals and blocks, check guys on the break, lock up guys in iso and rebound/box out much bigger player (like him routinely keeping Bogut off the offensive glass) shows how versatile he is. And a lot of that is stuff that Bowen didn't do, even if you believe Bruce was superior or even far superior in certain other aspects. It's really silly that you continue you ignore that Danny is an incredible all-around defender and that that talent is really rare.

And obviously, the average d-leaguer can't do half the things Green can do. Sure, some can score better, but Danny averaged 20/7/3 in the d-league and was quite the finisher there and in college. So he's not anywhere close to being in the same talent pool. He had just begun working on his three his senior year, and had people known that that was going to end up being a huge strength, they would have picked up much higher. As it was, they thought he was an undersized four, since that is how he started at UNC. Yes, he's an example of hard work, but you're not getting anywhere without talent.


Don't think I'm in favor of benching Danny, trading him, starting Simmons over him, I'm simply pointing out that his struggles have nothing to do with LMA, system adjustment, and the host of the other thousand excuses people are making for him, and everything to do with his natural limitations.

And it has NOTHING to do with his limitations. It's not like Green would be shooting 45 percent if only he were a slasher. He's in a funk, which is the closest thing to a limitation that he has in terms of his role. But most shooters are streaky, and Green is trending up. There are probably reasons to explain why he hasn't been as effective, and a lot of them are his fault. But in no way is his lack of "talent" the reason. It's not like he's finally coming back to Earth after four years of playing above his head.

[Chinook]

I think that's far from settled. On defense, I would take Danny any time of the day. But with other factors at play on offense (mostly inability to penetrate), starting Sims or even Manu might make more sense. Plus Danny has exactly the same problems with his handles under pressure, doesn't have the quick first step, and sometimes screws up not even trying to dribble the ball. So that's still an upgrade in that department, IMO.

No. If Simmons is going to turn the ball over as frequently as Green on drives, Simmons' ability to drive isn't a plus. It's actually a minus because it's his proclivity to do so. You can always tell Green to just shoot instead of drive, and it will eliminate his TOs and potentially get you a bunch of points. Simmons doesn't have that upside, so his choices against a swarming defense is just to take a bad shot or turn it over. That's horrible.

And Green should shadow Curry all game, so there shouldn't be a time where offense is more necessary. He's so essential because he's the best defender against the best player. So there's almost nothing that Simmons can do to balance that out.

[SupremeGuy]

:lol thinking bulls would trade butler for greenhttp://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/012/132/thatsthejoke.jpg

[SAGirl]

Danny has indeed been better for 3. He's still hot/cold meaning he can have a scoring explosion one game and then come up empty or with a single 3 another, but yes as Chinook said his % has risen to 45% this month, and as sasaint noted, he also has toned down all the freelancing, and chaotic play he had earlier in the season, which probably added to his hesitation and hitches to his shot. He has most definitely been returning to himself.

The issue now is not Danny himself but the SL, and what they need to succeed. They haven't been great. They were horrible to begin with (Danny notorious long slump + LMA not familiar with offense and also in deferral state made for a bad SL), now they are good.

The point differential is due in large part to the bench. I was opposed to starting Simmons bc aside from all the defensive/lack of experience arguments ppl throw out there, I thought fit was a big issue. At this point, if you do switch lineups is not for Danny's benefit. He's been fine lately. Its more you do it to get Simmons more experience if Pop thinks he figures to be a big part of what we do in the post season. You might also want to do it to get Tony/Kawhi another ballhandler and more versatile backcourt mate.

[midnightpulp]

Again, defense is half of the freaking game, and there are a lot of different aspects to it. So equating that to play-making is silly. There are literally NBA players who can do one aspect of defense, like Hassan Whiteside. That he can get steals and blocks, check guys on the break, lock up guys in iso and rebound/box out much bigger player (like him routinely keeping Bogut off the offensive glass) shows how versatile he is. And a lot of that is stuff that Bowen didn't do, even if you believe Bruce was superior or even far superior in certain other aspects. It's really silly that you continue you ignore that Danny is an incredible all-around defender and that that talent is really rare.

And obviously, the average d-leaguer can't do half the things Green can do. Sure, some can score better, but Danny averaged 20/7/3 in the d-league and was quite the finisher there and in college. So he's not anywhere close to being in the same talent pool. He had just begun working on his three his senior year, and had people known that that was going to end up being a huge strength, they would have picked up much higher. As it was, they thought he was an undersized four, since that is how he started at UNC. Yes, he's an example of hard work, but you're not getting anywhere without talent.

All those attributes you mentioned can be learned and built through hard work and game/film study. Defense is more about knowledge and work ethic than anything else (a bit of length does help, as well). Why do you think a one legged Tim Duncan is still one of the best paint anchors in the league? Ben Wallace didn't have many "natural gifts," but molded himself into one of the best interior defenders in history, despite being undersized. Of course Danny is "naturally" talented, you have to be to play pro basketball, whether that's in the D-League, Europe, or the NBA, but in relative terms, he's limited in that respect to his peers. Simmons, for example, has more natural talent (but he might not have the same work ethic or dedication outside the gym [i.e. film study, etc]).




And it has NOTHING to do with his limitations. It's not like Green would be shooting 45 percent if only he were a slasher. He's in a funk, which is the closest thing to a limitation that he has in terms of his role. But most shooters are streaky, and Green is trending up. There are probably reasons to explain why he hasn't been as effective, and a lot of them are his fault. But in no way is his lack of "talent" the reason. It's not like he's finally coming back to Earth after four years of playing above his head.

I would argue that his lack of talent is the reason. Green is on the radar now, more than ever. Teams know he's not a threat to drive (and if he does, it's with usually poor results) or do much off the dribble, so they stick close to him and run him off his spots. Miami did this in game 6's and 7's after they figured out that yeah, Danny can shoot. And Danny was shut down. So other than hoping the offense generates an open look for him, how is he supposed to contribute on that end? He can't. He can't create his own shot. And that's because of his natural limitations (He's a poor dribbler. Not much leaping ability. Poor finisher at this level).

He embodies 3 and D. And 3 and D players are specialists for a reason.

[SAGirl]

The thing with Sims though is that he isn't the young Jax kind of guy that just takes the bull by the balls and just elevates everything at a given time. He's aiming to please right now, and so he would need a longer leash if he were to get a more prominent role.

I disagree with that. I think he has been very much been unleashed. He's looking less to pass, meaning he will get blocked at the rim bc he will challenge shot blockers, he will run full steam looking for his own shot or get fouled instead of looking to pass to the corner, sometimes turning it over or committing an offensive foul. No matter, that is what Pop wants him to do. He's being a bit more "selfish" if you will in looking for things for himself than he was earlier in the season, when he wanted to show off his passing ability.

At this point Pop knows he can pass the ball very well, they want him aggressive. So I do think he's been unleashed. You will not see more out of him until Manu retires. I know you love Manu but that is the God's honest truth. Anderson as well. He may rise or fall, but what he may be able to do best will not show until Manu retires. Simmons has a role as well. The offense goes through Manu a whole lot, he touches the ball, gets first dibs on reads and passes to make and attacks as he sees fit. If Simmons is ahead he will always get the ball.

[ElNono]

No. If Simmons is going to turn the ball over as frequently as Green on drives, Simmons' ability to drive isn't a plus. It's actually a minus because it's his proclivity to do so. You can always tell Green to just shoot instead of drive, and it will eliminate his TOs and potentially get you a bunch of points. Simmons doesn't have that upside, so his choices against a swarming defense is just to take a bad shot or turn it over. That's horrible.

And Green should shadow Curry all game, so there shouldn't be a time where offense is more necessary. He's so essential because he's the best defender against the best player. So there's almost nothing that Simmons can do to balance that out.

That's not my premise though. My premise is that he's going to turn it over less than Green in same situations, to a much larger effect breaking down the other team defense. Danny putting the ball on the floor is an almost instant invitation to pressure and cause a turnover. There's no quick step, poor pass recognition and relatively poor finishing. Just pressuring him even when he's not dribbling but simply ball handling is already a red alert. You can argue that Simmons has trouble when he drives recklessly, but he's a much better passer, finisher and generally if given that first step, he's going to burn you.

You can tell Danny not to penetrate and shoot, but if his shooting isn't really adding anything and the spacing is still all whack, then that's not what we need. This would actually be much less of an issue if Tony could penetrate at will, but there will be times, apparently, when that's not going to happen, so we're going to have to look somewhere else. I agree with you that I would rather have Danny blanket Curry, but the caveat is that you're not going to shut him down the way he's playing right now (this is not Curry 2 years ago), and that Danny (or Simms or Kawhi) really aren't that great going through screens anyways, so you'll always have some slip. But if on top of that you're not breaking down the defense on the other end, you're going to have a lot of problems putting up points against this team.

[ElNono]

I disagree with that. I think he has been very much been unleashed. He's looking less to pass, meaning he will get blocked at the rim bc he will challenge shot blockers, he will run full steam looking for his own shot or get fouled instead of looking to pass to the corner, sometimes turning it over or committing an offensive foul. No matter, that is what Pop wants him to do. He's being a bit more "selfish" if you will in looking for things for himself than he was earlier in the season, when he wanted to show off his passing ability.

At this point Pop knows he can pass the ball very well, they want him aggressive. So I do think he's been unleashed. You will not see more out of him until Manu retires. I know you love Manu but that is the God's honest truth. Anderson as well. He may rise or fall, but what he may be able to do best will not show until Manu retires. Simmons has a role as well. The offense goes through Manu a whole lot, he touches the ball, gets first dibs on reads and passes to make and attacks as he sees fit. If Simmons is ahead he will always get the ball.

I still think he defers too much, and that might just be intentional right now. Jax would call up a screen and drive to the basket. And then do it again. And then would jack up a 3. Simms doesn't have that kind of green light or confidence (yet anyways). He would need that if he were to be a starter and a difference maker for us.

[SAGirl]

I still think he defers too much, and that might just be intentional right now. Jax would call up a screen and drive to the basket. And then do it again. And then would jack up a 3. Simms doesn't have that kind of green light or confidence (yet anyways). He would need that if he were to be a starter and a difference maker for us.
I never witnessed Jax, so I didn't understand exactly what you meant.

I watched him play in the dleague a lot though, and what we have seen is pretty much his game, with some major improvements, but the essence of his game is the same. He has added a spin move I never saw in the dleague. I think that is something he worked with coaches here in SA. He also didn't do that preseason or SL and it helps him avoid being cut off or turning the ball over, as well as takes advantage of his quickness, so I believe he's still improving despite his age. His handles are probably not going to be great ever, but he is better anticipating swipes and seeing the guy who is going to cut him off and at that point grabbing the ball to shield it, even if he has to cut his drive and take a shot close to the basket but not at the rim. He's so athletic that when he jumps he still has a good look at those shots.

I definitely have seen improvements, but the kind of game you mention, he didn't have it. He was not a prolific 3 pt shooter. His made shots were wide open, and set. He's improved his shot, but he's not the kind of guy like Kawhi or Manu that you want taking freelancing shots, step back jumpers or what not.

I don't see the deferral you see, except that he won't force shots that are beyond his skill at this point. If he has a lane, he will take it, if he has a 3, he will take it, he will pass well. To freelance on his own requires I believe a more sophisticated offensive game than he has.

You know who has that kind of sophisticated game? Slow-Mo. He does defer too much, he is much more skilled than he has shown and he does and did defer too much, but we are not a development team. We are a contending team, so he will have to push the envelope and develop whenever he can.

[ElNono]

Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for Danny, I want him to do great. What I'm talking about is the fact that half a season is gone and this team isn't the same as previous seasons, and while the SL and team overall is much improved than last season and better than 95% of the rest of the league, the offense in the SL can still be hard to watch. Spacing is fairly broken, and we really hang our hat much more on elite defense than anything else. The bench (which has been dominant on it's own) is really where you see a lot more ball movement, cuts, etc.

[testies]

Admins, I've been banned for over a year from making threads. Please forgive, this is absurd and ridiculous.

[Mal]

I`d trade two picks and Green for Butler, tbh

[ElNono]

I never witnessed Jax, so I didn't understand exactly what you meant.

I watched him play in the dleague a lot though, and what we have seen is pretty much his game, with some major improvements, but the essence of his game is the same. He has added a spin move I never saw in the dleague. I think that is something he worked with coaches here in SA. He also didn't do that preseason or SL and it helps him avoid being cut off or turning the ball over, as well as takes advantage of his quickness, so I believe he's still improving despite his age. His handles are probably not going to be great ever, but he is better anticipating swipes and seeing the guy who is going to cut him off and at that point grabbing the ball to shield it, even if he has to cut his drive and take a shot close to the basket but not at the rim. He's so athletic that when he jumps he still has a good look at those shots.

I definitely have seen improvements, but the kind of game you mention, he didn't have it. He was not a prolific 3 pt shooter. His made shots were wide open, and set. He's improved his shot, but he's not the kind of guy like Kawhi or Manu that you want taking freelancing shots, step back jumpers or what not.

I don't see the deferral you see, except that he won't force shots that are beyond his skill at this point. If he has a lane, he will take it, if he has a 3, he will take it, he will pass well. To freelance on his own requires I believe a more sophisticated offensive game than he has.

You know who has that kind of sophisticated game? Slow-Mo. He does defer too much, he is much more skilled than he has shown and he does and did defer too much, but we are not a development team. We are a contending team, so he will have to push the envelope and develop whenever he can.

It's just a matter of confidence, personality, balls... Manu was like that too when he got here, pushing the envelope and sometimes angering Pop. Players that test the boundaries. Simms is not that guy right now, but he would need to be, IMO, if he's going to get a larger role and become a difference maker.

[testies]

It's just a matter of confidence, personality, balls... Manu was like that too when he got here, pushing the envelope and sometimes angering Pop. Players that test the boundaries. Simms is not that guy right now, but he would need to be, IMO, if he's going to get a larger role and become a difference maker.

Admins, I've been banned for over a year from making threads. Please forgive, this is absurd and ridiculous.

[ElNono]

Admins, I've been banned for over a year from making threads. Please forgive, this is absurd and ridiculous.

:lol and you think they're going to do that after you're taking a victory lap on the forum?

[Amuseddaysleeper]

Admins, I've been banned for over a year from making threads. Please forgive, this is absurd and ridiculous.

I'll see what I can do.

[SAGirl]

It's just a matter of confidence, personality, balls... Manu was like that too when he got here, pushing the envelope and sometimes angering Pop. Players that test the boundaries. Simms is not that guy right now, but he would need to be, IMO, if he's going to get a larger role and become a difference maker.
Part of confidence or balls is having the skill for that. Simms averaged 15 pts in dleague, that is why critics say he's an energy guy. In SL, Slow-Mo was the guy everything revolved around when he was there and very many of Simms shots and alley oops were assisted by Slow-Mo. I mean slow-mo is unathletic and is younger and it is just a huge adjustment in itself and just that will sap his confidence and his balls too. And Pop is not going to throw games this season developing youngsters... but the kind of game you see from Simms is pretty much a very much improved version of what he is.

Kyle on the other hand has been much less this season than what he has been in lower leagues and has a lot of untapped potential. I do believe he's not a guy you can box into a role. He doesn't fit in exactly into a mold. I do believe Anderson is more the difference maker in the future than Simms is, but I may very well be wrong. However, there is something to that because all criticism he gets, Pop gets him time whenever he can, literally whenever he can spare it.

We won't see it until Manu retires and truth be told, we are lucky Manu is here, bc Slow-Mo was most definitely not ready and is better for him to take his time. We may see it in a different team, but not this season.

[ElNono]

Part of confidence or balls is having the skill for that. Simms averaged 15 pts in dleague, that is why critics say he's an energy guy. In SL, Slow-Mo was the guy everything revolved around when he was there and very many of Simms shots and alley oops were assisted by Slow-Mo. I mean slow-mo is unathletic and is younger and it is just a huge adjustment in itself and just that will sap his confidence and his balls too. And Pop is not going to throw games this season developing youngsters... but the kind of game you see from Simms is pretty much a very much improved version of what he is.

Kyle on the other hand has been much less this season than what he has been in lower leagues and has a lot of untapped potential. I do believe he's not a guy you can box into a role. He doesn't fit in exactly into a mold. I do believe Anderson is more the difference maker in the future than Simms is, but I may very well be wrong. However, there is something to that because all criticism he gets, Pop gets him time whenever he can, literally whenever he can spare it.

We won't see it until Manu retires and truth be told, we are lucky Manu is here, bc Slow-Mo was most definitely not ready and is better for him to take his time. We may see it in a different team, but not this season.

I see Kyle as a completely different player from a quick-step, penetrator style. Let's just leave it at that :D

[Chinook]

All those attributes you mentioned can be learned and built through hard work and game/film study. Defense is more about knowledge and work ethic than anything else (a bit of length does help, as well). Why do you think a one legged Tim Duncan is still one of the best paint anchors in the league? Ben Wallace didn't have many "natural gifts," but molded himself into one of the best interior defenders in history, despite being undersized. Of course Danny is "naturally" talented, you have to be to play pro basketball, whether that's in the D-League, Europe, or the NBA, but in relative terms, he's limited in that respect to his peers. Simmons, for example, has more natural talent (but he might not have the same work ethic or dedication outside the gym [i.e. film study, etc]).

You want to equate talent with athleticism. And that's silly. Talents are skills. Green's anticipation is top-notch, and it's absurd to assume that that's all learned. Like any safety could be Ed Reed if he just watched enough film. Do you think Curry's shooting is not talent? He sure as hell had to learn to do that. Are you one of those people who believe Duncan is not talented just because he's not DeAndre Jordan? Even if Simmons is more talented (which is a gift to you, as his ilk aren't all that rare), how does that mean that Green does not have NBA-caliber talent?


I would argue that his lack of talent is the reason. Green is on the radar now, more than ever. Teams know he's not a threat to drive (and if he does, it's with usually poor results) or do much off the dribble, so they stick close to him and run him off his spots. Miami did this in game 6's and 7's after they figured out that yeah, Danny can shoot. And Danny was shut down. So other than hoping the offense generates an open look for him, how is he supposed to contribute on that end? He can't. He can't create his own shot. And that's because of his natural limitations (He's a poor dribbler. Not much leaping ability. Poor finisher at this level).

So the Heat devoted a ton of attention to Green, leading to Tim and Kawhi getting ton of looks, and you want to say that proves something negative about Green? Would it be better if he had Manu's play-making? Yes. But that doesn't mean that he lacks his own talent. Teams haven't figured Danny out any more than they did last season we he started out poorly. His role is to draw a defender to him at all times so that the stars can do his work. If anything, him being "shut down" plays into the Spurs' hands.

[midnightpulp]

You want to equate talent with athleticism. And that's silly. Talents are skills. Green's anticipation is top-notch, and it's absurd to assume that that's all learned. Like any safety could be Ed Reed if he just watched enough film. Do you think Curry's shooting is not talent? He sure as hell had to learn to do that. Are you one of those people who believe Duncan is not talented just because he's not DeAndre Jordan? Even if Simmons is more talented (which is a gift to you, as his ilk aren't all that rare), how does that mean that Green does not have NBA-caliber talent?

Athleticism goes a long, long way in basketball, for better or worse. If a player has top notch athleticism and has the drive to learn new skill sets and study the game away from the gym, then the sky is really the limit. AAU and such has conditioned these players to rely mostly on their athleticism. It's why you see so many busts today. And why European players, despite their comparative lack of natural athleticism, have made a big splash over the past 2 decades.

And I would consider the handeye coordination required to be a great dribbler, finisher, low post player (footwork), and shooter a form of athleticism. Regarding Duncan, while he might not have the athleticism of DeAndre, he's much more coordinated.

Danny is way below par in pretty much every attribute you need to have to be a good offensive player except spot up shooting, which is highly dependent on teammates creating for you. My main point is that you can build defensive skills through hardwork and study much easier than you can build offensive skills, which require a certain innate level of talent/physical gifts.

Not every one can be Ed Reed. But a middling player can get closer to being an Ed Reed than he can being a Calvin Johnson.

Also keep in my mind when I talk of Danny being a D-league level talent, I'm referring to his offensive skills. Not the whole player. I'm also tiring of the excuses made for him on that end when the fact of the matter is his natural limitations as a scorer are holding him back thus far. Not the system. LMA, etc.





So the Heat devoted a ton of attention to Green, leading to Tim and Kawhi getting ton of looks, and you want to say that proves something negative about Green? Would it be better if he had Manu's play-making? Yes. But that doesn't mean that he lacks his own talent. Teams haven't figured Danny out any more than they did last season we he started out poorly. His role is to draw a defender to him at all times so that the stars can do his work. If anything, him being "shut down" plays into the Spurs' hands.[/QUOTE]

[UNT Eagles 2016]

lol "testies"

[SAGirl]

I see Kyle as a completely different player from a quick-step, penetrator style. Let's just leave it at that :D
No he is not that at all. But he is a guy who can get his own shots and get other guys shots, and will make accurate passes in transition that Manu is known for, and will throw lobs to guys who can jump. Did you miss the fact he was setting up Boban with lobs in preseason before anyone in the regular rotation had chemistry with Boban or even knew how to play with him? Guys in garbage time looked to him to bail them out of bad possessions. In fact, I'll do you one better, he has already bailed out a ton of possessions going nowhere in the regular season. A guy who is a scrub is not going to do that.

Not going to engage in this with you bc I will get flamed, and also I know you are good minded. And besides, I hate-hate to engage in comparisons with Simmons bc he's a different player and I also like him. My whole point is that Slow-Mo has a more versatile and smarter offensive game that does not depend and has never depended on him being athletic at all. It does require him to be taller or have length over others, which is why I think Pop has kept him as a perimeter player so far. Now he's at the 4 and that is basically because of injuries and need, and what he can be we don't really know bc that is new for him.

But what I am saying is that Slow-Mo is the one who has a very tight leash, so if you let that leash loose you will see a different player. Simmons has been unleashed and what you see is what he is. That is my whole point. Whether or not Anderson achieves the potential to play the game he's played in lower leagues and succeed we don't know, and won't know, but I know that Pop doesn't have him playing his game bc that requires changes in the bench that cannot happen this season.

And lets just leave it at that, since we won't convince each other further.

[tholdren]

You want to equate talent with athleticism. And that's silly. Talents are skills. Green's anticipation is top-notch, and it's absurd to assume that that's all learned. Like any safety could be Ed Reed if he just watched enough film. Do you think Curry's shooting is not talent? He sure as hell had to learn to do that. Are you one of those people who believe Duncan is not talented just because he's not DeAndre Jordan? Even if Simmons is more talented (which is a gift to you, as his ilk aren't all that rare), how does that mean that Green does not have NBA-caliber talent?



So the Heat devoted a ton of attention to Green, leading to Tim and Kawhi getting ton of looks, and you want to say that proves something negative about Green? Would it be better if he had Manu's play-making? Yes. But that doesn't mean that he lacks his own talent. Teams haven't figured Danny out any more than they did last season we he started out poorly. His role is to draw a defender to him at all times so that the stars can do his work. If anything, him being "shut down" plays into the Spurs' hands.

Lol I've watched green fall down getting back doored. Enough with the blind love

[Chinook]

Athleticism goes a long, long way in basketball, for better or worse. If a player has top notch athleticism and has the drive to learn new skill sets and study the game away from the gym, then the sky is really the limit. AAU and such has conditioned these players to rely mostly on their athleticism. It's why you see so many busts today. And why European players, despite their comparative lack of natural athleticism, have made a big splash over the past 2 decades.

And I would consider the handeye coordination required to be a great dribbler, finisher, low post player (footwork), and shooter a form of athleticism. Regarding Duncan, while he might not have the athleticism of DeAndre, he's much more coordinated.

Danny is way below par in pretty much every attribute you need to have to be a good offensive player except spot up shooting, which is highly dependent on teammates creating for you. My main point is that you can build defensive skills through hardwork and study much easier than you can build offensive skills, which require a certain innate level of talent/physical gifts.

Not every one can be Ed Reed. But a middling player can get closer to being an Ed Reed than he can being a Calvin Johnson.

Also keep in my mind when I talk of Danny being a D-league level talent, I'm referring to his offensive skills. Not the whole player. I'm also tiring of the excuses made for him on that end when the fact of the matter is his natural limitations as a scorer are holding him back thus far. Not the system. LMA, etc.

So you're admitting that your entire definition of talent is athleticism. That's fine for you, I guess. But I think it really highlights why your argument is weak. Green is FAR from the least athletic player in the league. Hell, is he even less athletic than Klay? I guess if you're counting coordination, even though you for some reason don't think you need that to be an elite defender. Quick and accurate hands don't grown on trees, and instincts aren't something that just comes if you want it badly enough.

You're trying to concatenate, "Green would be a better player if he had more talent," which is a trivial matter to concede with, "The reason why Green is playing so poorly nowadays is because he lacks talent", which is absolutely silly. Green was "found out" back in 2013 by your assertions and put together his two best offensive seasons following that. You think the Clippers stopped caring about Green in Game Seven last year and that's why he went off? You think Green is missing wide-open threes because he all the sudden realized that he's not taking people off the dribble? It's just a bad take that you are pretty much stuck defending. If Danny goes 45 percent from three from here on out it won't be because he suddenly got more talented.

No one except maybe Harlem think Green should be given a pass for his struggles. Hell, I'm like the chairman of the CoG, and I've been calling for Danny to get benched for more than a month. But thinking that Green's not going to work through this doesn't make any sense. And the "talent" critique just seems like a chicken-little thing people will bust out any time Danny has a poor stretch. It's like the 2016 version of "He shrinks in the biggest moments".

[Chinook]

I see Kyle as a completely different player from a quick-step, penetrator style. Let's just leave it at that :D

First, Anderson's first step isn't slow. It's the rest of the steps that are. Second, Anderson using his length to penetrate, and because he's a really good midrange shooter, he knows how to use fakes to get buckets. The way Anderson penetrates collapses the defense just as well as a speed rush would.

[ElNono]

No he is not that at all. But he is a guy who can get his own shots and get other guys shots, and will make accurate passes in transition that Manu is known for, and will throw lobs to guys who can jump. Did you miss the fact he was setting up Boban with lobs in preseason before anyone in the regular rotation had chemistry with Boban or even knew how to play with him? Guys in garbage time looked to him to bail them out of bad possessions. In fact, I'll do you one better, he has already bailed out a ton of possessions going nowhere in the regular season. A guy who is a scrub is not going to do that.

Not going to engage in this with you bc I will get flamed, and also I know you are good minded. And besides, I hate-hate to engage in comparisons with Simmons bc he's a different player and I also like him. My whole point is that Slow-Mo has a more versatile and smarter offensive game that does not depend and has never depended on him being athletic at all. It does require him to be taller or have length over others, which is why I think Pop has kept him as a perimeter player so far. Now he's at the 4 and that is basically because of injuries and need, and what he can be we don't really know bc that is new for him.

But what I am saying is that Slow-Mo is the one who has a very tight leash, so if you let that leash loose you will see a different player. Simmons has been unleashed and what you see is what he is. That is my whole point. Whether or not Anderson achieves the potential to play the game he's played in lower leagues and succeed we don't know, and won't know, but I know that Pop doesn't have him playing his game bc that requires changes in the bench that cannot happen this season.

And lets just leave it at that, since we won't convince each other further.

They're different players and my observation is just an opinion of what the team could use more of, which is speed and athleticism penetrating the defense, forcing the other team to make quick reactions.

It doesn't mean Kyle or Green or Kawhi are bad players because that's not their forte, or that other skills might not be needed in different lineups.

[gambit1990]

simmons needs time on the court. he's still raw, but improved since earlier this season. his confidence is higher.

with his athletic ability he's somewhat of a weapon we haven't had at that position. he can pass too. he's not just someone who can dunk.

[ElNono]

First, Anderson's first step isn't slow. It's the rest of the steps that are. Second, Anderson using his length to penetrate, and because he's a really good midrange shooter, he knows how to use fakes to get buckets. The way Anderson penetrates collapses the defense just as well as a speed rush would.

Nah, what he has going for him is the fake with the dribble to generate that separation, but he's much more methodical about penetrating and attacking the basket. IMO, there's a lot of overlap in his way to get to the rim with Boris. It's a good asset to have, but not what I'm talking about. it's just very different from having a quick, athletic guy head on towards the basket. With Kyle, after the 2nd or 3rd attack, he might force the other team to send help, but it's no scramble. Just my opinion, obviously.

[Chinook]

Nah, what he has going for him is the fake with the dribble to generate that separation, but he's much more methodical about penetrating and attacking the basket. IMO, there's a lot of overlap in his way to get to the rim with Boris. It's a good asset to have, but not what I'm talking about. it's just very different from having a quick, athletic guy head on towards the basket. With Kyle, after the 2nd or 3rd attack, he might force the other team to send help, but it's no scramble. Just my opinion, obviously.

He generates separation by being bigger than they people who guard him. Again, though, Anderson has really good reflexes, and that's why he can get so many deflections. Those reflexes help him beat his man off the dribble. Then, since you know he's a good midrange guy, you can't play him for the shot. Finally, he has a variety of finishes, including all kinds of layups and floaters. And you're not going to block any of those one-on-one. So yeah, he can get to the rim, and when he does, it forces rotations. That's the same thing with Simmons, but at least with Kyle, you don't have to worry about him dribbling into people

[SAGirl]

First, Anderson's first step isn't slow. It's the rest of the steps that are. Second, Anderson using his length to penetrate, and because he's a really good midrange shooter, he knows how to use fakes to get buckets. The way Anderson penetrates collapses the defense just as well as a speed rush would.
I am not really against Simmons potential. Just saying that based on my observations of him, he's not on some leash. He's actually rather aggressive and unleashed, and whatever deferral or passiveness is perceived in him stems from his skill level. He's playing within his talent/skill level at this point. Whether he can make a leap (is what I think ElNono is trying to convey to me), we don't know. I don't expect him to. That is probably where I stand apart from many.

Anderson is the one who is in the shortest leash of all. He's not playing the game he had in college, nor is he playing the game the Spurs asked him to develop in d'league and SL. Pop admitted he didn't even look at the dleague stuff, he didn't even know about Simms until their free agency and SL stuff... So Pop just sent Anderson with some assignments to the dleague and this season is the first time he's really taking a look at Kyle and is trying to figure out what he can be. He doesn't have Kyle playing "his game". If anything he's one of those "out of the box" guys that Pop is still figuring out, which is very tough to do when you also want to win a championship.

[SAGirl]

They're different players and my observation is just an opinion of what the team could use more of, which is speed and athleticism penetrating the defense, forcing the other team to make quick reactions.

It doesn't mean Kyle or Green or Kawhi are bad players because that's not their forte, or that other skills might not be needed in different lineups.
For this season, Simmons is the best bet. I don't think he's in a leash. He's limited at this point on what you perceive as deferral by his skill level. Asking him to do more, will invite more TO and more mistakes than he even has now, in his current aggressive state.

Kyle won't help this season. He can't. If we were in the mind to develop he would play every night and by next preseason, Pop would sit down would look at everything he did the whole year and go from there. The first season from a young player in this early development stage involves a lot of experimentation anyways, and a lot of learning, and correction and adaptation. He is not in a development team so has to play a role, which maybe he's not very good at. For example, you have him spotted up for a 3? That is not the best use for him at all. Yea he needs to improve in that area overall, but it is not the ideal use for him.

Green is fine at this point IMO. The shooting slump and terrible mistakes of the early season are passed. He's at the point where he seems to know what he wants to do and be for the season and that is be himself, the guy who's been an NBA champion already. It is the SL which is out of whack. Maybe a dose of Simmons is the answer. Others are advocating Rasual.

We will see, but if the problem is Tony being overwhelmed and LMA not bringing it we are not winning a championship and that is not on Danny.

[ElNono]

He generates separation by being bigger than they people who guard him. Again, though, Anderson has really good reflexes, and that's why he can get so many deflections. Those reflexes help him beat his man off the dribble. Then, since you know he's a good midrange guy, you can't play him for the shot. Finally, he has a variety of finishes, including all kinds of layups and floaters. And you're not going to block any of those one-on-one. So yeah, he can get to the rim, and when he does, it forces rotations. That's the same thing with Simmons, but at least with Kyle, you don't have to worry about him dribbling into people

He has size, but he won't beat anybody to a spot on the floor. You need quick feet for that. Anderson is simply a different player (as I said, he's much closer to Boris in a lot of respects). He might need help cover when and if he penetrates, but the defense won't be scrambling because he got 'loose'. If your argument is that Kyle is a more complete player or more of a threat than Simmons, that's certainly possible. But again, my argument is about a very specific role, which only Simmons (maybe also McCallum, but haven't seen enough of him) really has the attributes to carry out in this roster.

[ElNono]

For this season, Simmons is the best bet. I don't think he's in a leash. He's limited at this point on what you perceive as deferral by his skill level. Asking him to do more, will invite more TO and more mistakes than he even has now, in his current aggressive state.

If he's out there with the starters, I want him to call his own number, much like Manu calls his own number sometimes. Until he's allowed to do that, he's on a leash. Right now, either he's allowed to do that with the garbage time lineup or tries to generate something out of a broken possession. Which is fine, that might be what Pop wants from him at this point in time. But under the hypothetical scenario I'm arguing, he would need to be much more assertive, and that requires a longer leash.

[SAGirl]

If he's out there with the starters, I want him to call his own number, much like Manu calls his own number sometimes. Until he's allowed to do that, he's on a leash. Right now, either he's allowed to do that with the garbage time lineup or tries to generate something out of a broken possession. Which is fine, that might be what Pop wants from him at this point in time. But under the hypothetical scenario I'm arguing, he would need to be much more assertive, and that requires a longer leash.
I don't think he will get a chance for that very much bc already there are guys who demand and need shots and touches. LMA, Kawhi and Tony. He will get the ball cutting to the basket. In fact he will play Danny's exact role. He has to provide spacing for others by taking the 3 when it's there, or cut to the basket and finish. The closeouts Danny gets won't be there for him against good teams. He will be very much reduced in usage. But he will be better than Danny in fastbreak opportunities.

POP will have to balance out if what he brings is worth the drop in defense. Maybe it is, maybe it is worth experimenting with. Then you have to balance if Danny is best used in the bench. It could be. Danny was scrappy against the Lakers and I thought him and Manu discombobulated the Lakers in the 3rd Q, but that required a nearly perfect game from Manu and that is not repeatable nightly. Meanwhile Simmons in the bench provides the energy, the juice and relieves some of the pressure on Manu and Patty. About 25% of his scoring is in transition another big % is fouls he draws from those endeavors and yet another are assisted buckets when he's cutting. He doesn't generate looks for himself in halfcourt. About 25% which is also on par with pure roleplayers. Just giving it to you straight. I mean again since I didn't see Ajax I don't know what more you think he can do. To me he's playing 120% every time and looked jacked up. I don't think he's holding anything back.

[Obstructed_View]

It's so amazing to me. The Spurs were playing really badly, Danny Green gets a pass, confidently hits a three, and is subbed out at the next dead ball by Pop. SMFH

[Mikeanaro]

Just get him out the team, trade him for Porzingis :flag:

[ElNono]

I don't think he will get a chance for that very much bc already there are guys who demand and need shots and touches. LMA, Kawhi and Tony. He will get the ball cutting to the basket. In fact he will play Danny's exact role. He has to provide spacing for others by taking the 3 when it's there, or cut to the basket and finish. The closeouts Danny gets won't be there for him against good teams. He will be very much reduced in usage. But he will be better than Danny in fastbreak opportunities.

POP will have to balance out if what he brings is worth the drop in defense. Maybe it is, maybe it is worth experimenting with. Then you have to balance if Danny is best used in the bench. It could be. Danny was scrappy against the Lakers and I thought him and Manu discombobulated the Lakers in the 3rd Q, but that required a nearly perfect game from Manu and that is not repeatable nightly. Meanwhile Simmons in the bench provides the energy, the juice and relieves some of the pressure on Manu and Patty. About 25% of his scoring is in transition another big % is fouls he draws from those endeavors and yet another are assisted buckets when he's cutting. He doesn't generate looks for himself in halfcourt. About 25% which is also on par with pure roleplayers. Just giving it to you straight. I mean again since I didn't see Ajax I don't know what more you think he can do. To me he's playing 120% every time and looked jacked up. I don't think he's holding anything back.

We got to this situation because teams will force the action to Danny, then make him put the ball on the floor. When that happens, our offense largely cracks. It used to be that with Danny's gravity of holding a guy in the perimeter, we would have more spacing inside, but Tony slowed down, and Lamarcus is also a guy that can step back and carry some gravity, so it's not as essential or effective as it used to be. If teams can do that consistently, Danny becomes just the D part of 3&D. That's what we would be looking to counter. Pop could easily start Manu, but then you would lose the playmaking in the 2nd unit, plus you risk tiring him out too quickly. There are no easy answers to this, I just think out of the players we have on the roster, Simmons is probably the better suited to do that, but he can't be passive, even when the starters are around.

[SAGirl]

We got to this situation because teams will force the action to Danny, then make him put the ball on the floor. When that happens, our offense largely cracks. It used to be that with Danny's gravity of holding a guy in the perimeter, we would have more spacing inside, but Tony slowed down, and Lamarcus is also a guy that can step back and carry some gravity, so it's not as essential or effective as it used to be. If teams can do that consistently, Danny becomes just the D part of 3&D. That's what we would be looking to counter. Pop could easily start Manu, but then you would lose the playmaking in the 2nd unit, plus you risk tiring him out too quickly. There are no easy answers to this, I just think out of the players we have on the roster, Simmons is probably the better suited to do that, but he can't be passive, even when the starters are around.
I think he can do what you want. His 3 % will have to hold otherwise he's the equivalent of Cojo playing off the ball but he's had a better shooting stroke than Cojo. He doesn't have Cojo's midrange game but it's much better if his 3 holds. He can attack the basket on closeouts, for him to get closed out, his 3 has to hold. Offensively so long a His 3 holds even if he only takes about 2 a game, he will be fine. Defensively he's a project. The whole thing is an experiment but it's better than sending LMA to the bench like some have suggested.

[midnightpulp]

So you're admitting that your entire definition of talent is athleticism. That's fine for you, I guess. But I think it really highlights why your argument is weak. Green is FAR from the least athletic player in the league. Hell, is he even less athletic than Klay? I guess if you're counting coordination, even though you for some reason don't think you need that to be an elite defender. Quick and accurate hands don't grown on trees, and instincts aren't something that just comes if you want it badly enough.

I've said I consider hand-eye coordination a part of that equation. You're right that Klay and Danny have comparable athleticism, but the main difference between the two is ball handling and the in between game (Klay was the top wing scorer in college off the pick-and-roll) . I think this is one of the reasons Pop experimented with giving Danny a longer a leash this season, thinking, "If Klay Thompson can turn into a well rounded scorer, why can't Danny?" And the results have been poor. Why? Danny, for whatever reason, simply can't dribble. Klay can. Dribbling can be learned to an extent, but some guys just seem to lack the innate hand-eye coordination to be an effective ball handler at the NBA level.



You're trying to concatenate, "Green would be a better player if he had more talent," which is a trivial matter to concede with, "The reason why Green is playing so poorly nowadays is because he lacks talent", which is absolutely silly. Green was "found out" back in 2013 by your assertions and put together his two best offensive seasons following that. You think the Clippers stopped caring about Green in Game Seven last year and that's why he went off? You think Green is missing wide-open threes because he all the sudden realized that he's not taking people off the dribble? It's just a bad take that you are pretty much stuck defending. If Danny goes 45 percent from three from here on out it won't be because he suddenly got more talented.


Why is it silly? If it's not a lack of talent for skills most starting wings seem to have (high vertical, good ball handling, good finishing ability, average-to-above playmaking ability) that is holding Danny back, then what is it? Mental? Just a slump? Or just maybe he isn't the getting the wide open looks he once was because he's no longer the afterthought for opposing teams he once was. My main argument is that if he had those innate skills, he could protect himself from being run off the 3 point line because opponents would have to respect his in between game, like they do with Klay (Klay shoots about 43% from the mid range, which is a strong percentage. Danny typically hovers around 30%).


No one except maybe Harlem think Green should be given a pass for his struggles. Hell, I'm like the chairman of the CoG, and I've been calling for Danny to get benched for more than a month. But thinking that Green's not going to work through this doesn't make any sense. And the "talent" critique just seems like a chicken-little thing people will bust out any time Danny has a poor stretch. It's like the 2016 version of "He shrinks in the biggest moments".

Despite my criticisms, I don't want Danny benched. He's still an elite defender (I don't trust his RPM metrics on that end), but there's no denying his offensive struggles have more to do with his limitations than with anything else. Spot up shooters aren't that hard to defend.

[midnightpulp]

We got to this situation because teams will force the action to Danny, then make him put the ball on the floor. When that happens, our offense largely cracks. It used to be that with Danny's gravity of holding a guy in the perimeter, we would have more spacing inside, but Tony slowed down, and Lamarcus is also a guy that can step back and carry some gravity, so it's not as essential or effective as it used to be. If teams can do that consistently, Danny becomes just the D part of 3&D. That's what we would be looking to counter. Pop could easily start Manu, but then you would lose the playmaking in the 2nd unit, plus you risk tiring him out too quickly. There are no easy answers to this, I just think out of the players we have on the roster, Simmons is probably the better suited to do that, but he can't be passive, even when the starters are around.

Ding, ding, ding, ding!

And due to his limitations, he can't punish teams with in between pull up jumpers like Klay, Kobe, Leonard, or a host of other wings who can shoot from the mid range.

[DMC]

Jimmy ain't walking though that door and if he did he's not going to camp in the corner and wait for Tony to decide to pass him the ball. There's only one basketball and too many "face of the franchise" guys now. You have the big 3 still holding on like a city worker at the water department reception desk, 98 years old and won't leave. You have KL trying to force the issue and getting better but still unsure when to defer to new guy LMA, Boris, Manu or even Tim who clanks that line drive (doesn't even qualify as a jumper these days) off the front of the iron.

Danny will be fine. They don't employ the same motion offense he thrived in the past couple years (and he wasn't that great last year either). For what he's paid, Danny will do just fine, being one of the finest transition defenders in the game.

[DMC]

It's so amazing to me. The Spurs were playing really badly, Danny Green gets a pass, confidently hits a three, and is subbed out at the next dead ball by Pop. SMFH
Pop didn't want a close game. He didn't want a reason to play harder than what mattered, and lose anyhow.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Ding, ding, ding, ding!

And due to his limitations, he can't punish teams with in between pull up jumpers like Klay, Kobe, Leonard, or a host of other wings who can shoot from the mid range.

That's the one thing I have been saying since the beginning of the season he needs to work on. If he developed that, he would be more of an offensive force than him driving and turning the ball over.

[Chinook]

I've said I consider hand-eye coordination a part of that equation. You're right that Klay and Danny have comparable athleticism, but the main difference between the two is ball handling and the in between game (Klay was the top wing scorer in college off the pick-and-roll) . I think this is one of the reasons Pop experimented with giving Danny a longer a leash this season, thinking, "If Klay Thompson can turn into a well rounded scorer, why can't Danny?" And the results have been poor. Why? Danny, for whatever reason, simply can't dribble. Klay can. Dribbling can be learned to an extent, but some guys just seem to lack the innate hand-eye coordination to be an effective ball handler at the NBA level.

Obviously, I'm not going to get too far into this since my response is so late. But as I said, I feel you're trying to slide in the fact that Green is limited (which he has always been, as has been known for years) as an explanation for his poor play to start the year. I have no issue conceding the first point. But I think Green has had too many great games for anyone to seriously think he's shooting poorly now for the year because he can't dribble.


Why is it silly? If it's not a lack of talent for skills most starting wings seem to have (high vertical, good ball handling, good finishing ability, average-to-above playmaking ability) that is holding Danny back, then what is it? Mental? Just a slump? Or just maybe he isn't the getting the wide open looks he once was because he's no longer the afterthought for opposing teams he once was. My main argument is that if he had those innate skills, he could protect himself from being run off the 3 point line because opponents would have to respect his in between game, like they do with Klay (Klay shoots about 43% from the mid range, which is a strong percentage. Danny typically hovers around 30%).

Yeah, the real "limit" to Green is his streakiness, which seems to have everything to do with concentration and confidence. If he were consistently the dead-eye he was against the Rockets, he'd be making Matthews money. But he'll miss wide-open shots for seemingly no reason one night and make off-dribble threes while getting fouled on the break the next night. And neither result is surprising. I don't know why his confidence is so shaky, but it is.


Despite my criticisms, I don't want Danny benched. He's still an elite defender (I don't trust his RPM metrics on that end), but there's no denying his offensive struggles have more to do with his limitations than with anything else. Spot up shooters aren't that hard to defend.

You seem too smart not to know that Green's job is to be defended, not really to score. It's easy to take a spot-up guy out the game, but it requires you to almost permanently take a defender out of the scheme to shadow the elite ones. And some players can't do it well (Green is actually one of those guys himself). So teams sometimes put their best defender on Danny to keep him locked up. I expect to see Ariza on Danny if the Rockets and Spurs meet up in the playoffs, which give Kawhi a tremendous advantage. And that's simply because the Rockets know that Kawhi scoring 17-21 points on 12-17 shots is much better than letting Danny go for 15-18 on eight. That reasoning is why the 2013 AND 2014 Finals unfolded the way it did. Danny showed Spo that he could pretty much beat the Heat by himself if had the openings, so they started committing to stopping him after five games, and Kawhi went off for the next seven once he got less attention.

That Green can command star-level gravity despite being the fourth or fifth option is his value to the offense, not his points. I don't care how hard Simmons tries or how badly he wants it, he won't ever do that.

[SAGirl]

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He’s very important for us because of his defense and energy,” Ginobili said. “But we need him to make shots.”

“Always nice to make shots,” Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. “That’s what Danny does. Shooters keep shooting, and eventually they start to fall.”