Why Players Revere Bryant More Than Duncan

[TD 21]

By now, I'm sure everyone has seen/heard the over the top love fest and claims of him being "this generation's Jordan" (apparently Jordan was the fourth best player of his generation).

Some of it is lip service. James, for example, has clearly never been his biggest fan, but as a longtime face of the league, he tows the company line. Much of it, of course, is genuine, because Bryant is their ideal image of what a basketball player should be. From the dark skin, to the profuse sweating, to the constant scowling, to the berating of just about everyone at one time or another, to the arrogance, to the trash talking, to the posing, to his size, position and the style in which he plays. The selfish, iso balling, high degree of difficulty shots, etc. He's everything they think of when they think of basketball.

Duncan is, of course, the polar opposite in virtually every respect, so of course many of them don't hold him in the same regard. The vast majority also know nothing about and in many cases shun advanced stats, which doesn't help his cause.

This is precisely why the vast majority of NBA players, particularly former ones, shouldn't be in positions of power in the league, have a hand in voting for anything involving the league or have their opinions taken seriously. Time and time again, they prove that they're nothing more than genetic lottery winners, who know little about and have a distorted view of the game.

[BillMc]

Interesting post. Can't argue with any of your points.

But Bill Russell said Timmy is his favorite player playing today.
That's all the former player endorsement I need. No nonsense, cerebral, defense, greatest winner of his era. Describes both men.

[Silver&Black]

^
Go ahead and add Dr. J to the list too BillMc.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aR-pOE8DvE

[BillMc]

^
Go ahead and add Dr. J to the list too BillMc (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/member.php?u=16431).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aR-pOE8DvE

:bobo Very cool. Noted and added. Also cool that Dr. J. says in your video that Duncan is his favorite player since George Gervin retired. Seems the doc is a fan of SA Legends.

I'm pretty sure Timmy and the good doctor bonded during Duncan's therapy sessions...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUzTAgVSlu0

[HarlemHeat37]

There are plenty of players, current and especially past, that have acknowledged that Duncan is the best player of his generation..

Most of the current crop of players are either friends with Kobe, and/or grew up admiring him..that's all there is to it, for the most part..

Duncan is an anti-media guy that doesn't do his part in "promoting the game", his style of play has never stood out(aesthetically), and frankly, he has never given any indication that he gives a fuck:lol..Kobe is obsessed with his legacy and perception, he is extremely insecure, he has made it a point to form relationships with all the younger stars in the NBA, clearly..

I don't know why anybody even listens to players' opinions anymore, btw:lol..I used to understand when there wasn't alternative content, but I don't really understand the appeal in today's climate, with so many opinions and options to choose from..I can't even fathom why anybody would listen to somebody like Charles Barkley in 2016(unless you're of an older age, which is understandable, for nostalgic reasons)..

[Silver&Black]

:bobo Very cool. Noted and added. Also cool that Dr. J. says in your video that Duncan is his favorite player since George Gervin retired. Seems the doc is a fan of SA Legends.

The list goes on and on.

You ever hear Magic Johnson (THE GOAT LAKER) during the "Redemption" vid. I mean he did basically everything but suck us off during his commentary on that video. Greatest team....greatest players....unselfish players....reminded him of the old days....etc. It's all because of what Tim Duncan set as the foundation. And that's a Laker saying that...........

[Russ]

Great bigs will never be as esteemed as great swingmen.

The smaller man's greatness is more entertaining.

There's really nothing more to it than than that.

[daslicer]

Players do respect Duncan hence why he won that best teammate award during the summer time in which the whole entire league voted on. Players come down to SA to work with Duncan during the summertime. The only reason you don't hear guys sucking off of Duncan is because Duncan is not an attention whore while Kobe is. Just think about how many times during the ASG weekend did players have to answer questions about Kobe from the media. These guys are not going to bad mouth Kobe even if they do think he's overrated because they don't want to deal with the fall out. Also Duncan is a big which tends not to be popular a position currently in a league dominated by perimeter players.

I stopped respecting players opinions a long time ago when MJ became the the owner my home team the Hornets. MJ has made a ton of bad moves since he's been owner and it's clear he's a terrible scout of talent. This is the greatest player of all time and he still has a hard time drafting the right players, making the right FA signings, and trades. This is the same man who got angry at Krause for drafting Pippen and Grant along with trading Oakley for Cartwright which were moves that allowed the bulls to become a dynasty. My point is the majority of players are terrible scouts of talent. Just look at last year when the players voted Harden to be MVP over Curry. That vote looks really stupid now.

[Old School 44]

I don't know if so much revere as guys want to play more like Bryant vs Duncan. It's like guys wanting to be like Mike versus say Karl Malone or Olajuwon.

[TD 21]

There are plenty of players, current and especially past, that have acknowledged that Duncan is the best player of his generation..

Most of the current crop of players are either friends with Kobe, and/or grew up admiring him..that's all there is to it, for the most part..

Duncan is an anti-media guy that doesn't do his part in "promoting the game", his style of play has never stood out(aesthetically), and frankly, he has never given any indication that he gives a fuck:lol..Kobe is obsessed with his legacy and perception, he is extremely insecure, he has made it a point to form relationships with all the younger stars in the NBA, clearly..

I don't know why anybody even listens to players' opinions anymore, btw:lol..I used to understand when there wasn't alternative content, but I don't really understand the appeal in today's climate, with so many opinions and options to choose from..I can't even fathom why anybody would listen to somebody like Charles Barkley in 2016(unless you're of an older age, which is understandable, for nostalgic reasons)..

I know, but I'm talking in general. They either don't get or don't have appreciation for subtlety and nuance. That's why they all pretend that a guy who was only interested in winning on his terms, is the "ultimate competitor", instead of the guy who did literally everything possible to win (took less money, changed his body, changed his game, took a secondary role offensively when needed, etc.), because he doesn't look the part.

I don't take the vast majority of players' opinions seriously. Very few are worth listening to. Most have the same takes as old school media types and casual fans.

Unfortunately, while online content has changed with the times and gotten better, on air is still lagging behind. In fact, the NBA has the worst on air analysis of any sport. It's mostly old fogies, with outdated takes and played out comedy routines, citing irrelevant information, such as someone's scoring average (amazingly, in '16, they still haven't figured out that this is heavily reliant on context). There's very little mention of advanced stats or X's and O's analysis.

[Spurs_619]

If you asked most of these players who would you rather play with Duncan or kobe? The majority would answer Duncan imo. Which is what matters most.

[ElNono]

It's because Kobe has always been at the ready for some controversy and storylines, tbh... That's what used to sell magazines, and nowadays online subscriptions... It has little to do with the game (and I'm not taking anything away from early 2000's Kobe who was an athletic monster), he was just more than willing to fit in to the media narrative that the league needed a "next Jordan"... one thing you have to give Kobe is that he always has been a terrific media manipulator.

That said, the media is moving on from the old to the new, with advanced stats, etc, and his stock will ultimately drop... one example is that nobody is really looking for the "next Kobe", which would be a go-to move if the old media still had much relevancy.

It's true that Timmy will probably need #6 to bury any and all discussions, which is really a shame, because they're not really comparable.

[spurs10]

Interesting post. Can't argue with any of your points.

But Bill Russell said Timmy is his favorite player playing today.
That's all the former player endorsement I need. No nonsense, cerebral, defense, greatest winner of his era. Describes both men. Yeah I'll take Bill Russell and Dr. J!! That constant attention is precisely why Tim is not on a "Farewell Tour." Tim is still trying to win a championship. If everyone can step up around him and Manu can return, I believe we are going to see some dogged determination to win!
:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:+:lobt2:RACE FOR SEIS!!

[BillMc]

Yeah I'll take Bill Russell and Dr. J!! That constant attention is precisely why Tim is not on a "Farewell Tour." Tim is still trying to win a championship. If everyone can step up around him and Manu can return, I believe we are going to see some dogged determination to win!
:lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2::lobt2:+:lobt2:RACE FOR SEIS!!
Amen, bro!:bobo

[MultiTroll]

Quality takes in this thread. :bobo

[Kawhitstorm]

For the same reason players revere Magic more than Kareem. #sizematters

[spurs10]

Amen, bro!:bobo :bobo


Quality takes in this thread. :bobo :bobo

[Seventyniner]

Kobe never fit the Jordan mold. He fit the Jordan narrative.

[benefactor]

Do you ever fucking stop whining? Jesus...I bet you are insufferable in real life.

[Hemotivo]

marketing

[LarryDavid]

I'm sure this has nothing to do with Nike and Kobe's Hero/Villian brand....

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/shrinknp_800_800/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAWqAAAAJGY1NDdiMzRmLTllM2EtNDkwNS05NT NmLTRhZDQyYWE3YzgyOQ.jpg

[EVAY]

I haven't really seen any evidence of the premise of the OP.

Players being interviewed by the media at a 'Farewell' gathering honoring Kobe aren't going to bad mouth Kobe.

I would be willing to bet that the majority of current players (including the best ones) 'revere' Duncan over Kobe. But exactly how would they manifest that?

Honest, I just don't accept the premise.

[HarlemHeat37]

I know, but I'm talking in general. They either don't get or don't have appreciation for subtlety and nuance. That's why they all pretend that a guy who was only interested in winning on his terms, is the "ultimate competitor", instead of the guy who did literally everything possible to win (took less money, changed his body, changed his game, took a secondary role offensively when needed, etc.), because he doesn't look the part.

I don't take the vast majority of players' opinions seriously. Very few are worth listening to. Most have the same takes as old school media types and casual fans.

Unfortunately, while online content has changed with the times and gotten better, on air is still lagging behind. In fact, the NBA has the worst on air analysis of any sport. It's mostly old fogies, with outdated takes and played out comedy routines, citing irrelevant information, such as someone's scoring average (amazingly, in '16, they still haven't figured out that this is heavily reliant on context). There's very little mention of advanced stats or X's and O's analysis.

I disagree with the last part..nothing is worse than NFL coverage, tbh:lol..it's in a different universe of corny, cliche, inaccurate analysis..

[tmtcsc]

marketing

BINGO

[theMatrix]

If you asked most of these players who would you rather play with Duncan or kobe? The majority would answer Duncan imo. Which is what matters most.

Thats because majority of these players want to be kobe, and so they rather play with duncan haha

[aal04]

It really doesnt matter. Like I said before, Tim Duncan in 10 years time will be out of the top 20-25 players. People will forget what he did and look at his 17/9 final career stats. They will say TP carried him in 07 and Kawhi in 14, and the people who actually watched both seasons know Tim Duncan was still the best spurs player despite not winning the FMVP. they will look at the lack of DPOY awards despite him being one of the top 2 defensive players in history.

FYI, I rate Duncan higher than MJ, who failed against the Bad boys and took PEDs in the early 90s to get the edge. I still rate the 03 run as the greatest ever run by any player. But I know Duncan will be underrated within months of his retirement.

[quentin_compson]

I think that for casual and superficial viewers, Kobe's game looks more stylish, more flashy than Duncan's. And as we see time and time again, players sometimes can bee very superficial when talking about their sport.
And the media narrative of Kobe as Jordan's successor and as a clutch player with an iron will to win has been shoved down our collective throats for so long, it's not easy to free yourself from that.
That being said, Tim certainly seems to enjoy the utmost respect among his peers. It's not like his greatness remains unrecognized or something.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

The reason modern day players revere Kobe over Duncan is b/c Duncan is a one of kind player. High IQ, Natural Leader, interpersonal, private, extremely gifted post player, etc.

These are qualities very few players ever possessed in the NBA. We live in the ME Generation which even Time magazine coined modern day America. Being a chugger and fame and glory player like Kobe is what most young players aspire to and can relate to.

That's why most older players say Duncan is the best b/c they are from a different cloth than the modern day players.

[NameLess Scrub]

Time and time again, they prove that they're nothing more than genetic lottery winners.

Fact of life :lol


I don't rule out old players, just have to take them with the proverbial grain of salt.

Also, I like watching Chuck because he's entertaining. I've heard him talk like he doesn't take the game very seriously and that nobody wants to talk X and Os for hours. I think TNT is watchable if taken for what it is.

[NameLess Scrub]

The reason modern day players revere Kobe over Duncan is b/c Duncan is a one of kind player. High IQ, Natural Leader, interpersonal, private, extremely gifted post player, etc.

These are qualities very few players ever possessed in the NBA. We live in the ME Generation which even Time magazine coined modern day America. Being a chugger and fame and glory player like Kobe is what most young players aspire to and can relate to.

That's why most older players say Duncan is the best b/c they are from a different cloth than the modern day players.

Was it ever different after the early 90s? That's around when I started watching basketball, and it has always been about perimeter play, one on one, being like Mike, etc.

Kids wanted the bigs to do the dirty work so they could run and shoot everything.

I mean in general, there's always people who like the Spurs style and etc.

[elemento]

Bryant simply realized he was done having laughable performances and announced his retirement to get people cheering for him in his last ride and a free pass to suck. And he got what he wanted. Attention as a worthless player that he is now.

If Kobe never makes that announcement, nobody would even talk about him. Duncan won't announce his retirement in the middle of the season putting 25 shots a game on atrocious efficiency playing for a lottery team. He will simply say "ciao" fighting for another title and let his accomplishments speak for himself.

[HarlemHeat37]

Was it ever different after the early 90s? That's around when I started watching basketball, and it has always been about perimeter play, one on one, being like Mike, etc.

Kids wanted the bigs to do the dirty work so they could run and shoot everything.

I mean in general, there's always people who like the Spurs style and etc.

Jordan ruined basketball as much as he helped it, tbh..the NBA reached new heights of popularity when Jordan was on top, but he also spawned an entire generation of ISO/ball-hogging players..

Fortunately, Lebron, the Spurs, Mavs, Celtics and Warriors revived team basketball..

[SpursforSix]

By now, I'm sure everyone has seen/heard the over the top love fest and claims of him being "this generation's Jordan" (apparently Jordan was the fourth best player of his generation).

Some of it is lip service. James, for example, has clearly never been his biggest fan, but as a longtime face of the league, he tows the company line. Much of it, of course, is genuine, because Bryant is their ideal image of what a basketball player should be. From the dark skin, to the profuse sweating, to the constant scowling, to the berating of just about everyone at one time or another, to the arrogance, to the trash talking, to the posing, to his size, position and the style in which he plays. The selfish, iso balling, high degree of difficulty shots, etc. He's everything they think of when they think of basketball.

Duncan is, of course, the polar opposite in virtually every respect, so of course many of them don't hold him in the same regard. The vast majority also know nothing about and in many cases shun advanced stats, which doesn't help his cause.

This is precisely why the vast majority of NBA players, particularly former ones, shouldn't be in positions of power in the league, have a hand in voting for anything involving the league or have their opinions taken seriously. Time and time again, they prove that they're nothing more than genetic lottery winners, who know little about and have a distorted view of the game.

I don't know that it's a slight to Duncan to call Bryant, "this generation's Jordan". I'm not sure that equates to player's revering Duncan less either. Bryant plays a position that is quite frankly more exciting to watch for most people and has more opportunity to do more highlight worthy plays. Even though there is a huge dropoff between Jordan and Bryant, Kobe is the player most reminiscent of MJ.

I don't think there are many players in the league that would say that Duncan wasn't the better player.

[keeferob25]

Jordan ruined basketball as much as he helped it, tbh..the NBA reached new heights of popularity when Jordan was on top, but he also spawned an entire generation of ISO/ball-hogging players..

Fortunately, Lebron, the Spurs, Mavs, Celtics and Warriors revived team basketball..

EXACTLY! If I remember correctly, I even think there was a jordan brand commercial some time ago where he was doing a voice-over and said that very thing or something like it...I remember at the time rolling my eyes because you could tell it was meant to be a "cute" deep line that Jordan would never actually believe in all his narcissism but it really was/is the truth. For all of Duncan's qualities I have and will ALWAYS feel that he is the greatest FRANCHISE player of all time...im not talking about Spurs franchise...but of all the legendary greats...to me HE is the one you'd have the easiest time building around and SUSTAINING greatness for a longer period. But Duncan is all about nuance and subtlety that is easily missed and dismissed by dumbass casuals who flock to flare and big names.

[el contusione]

Tim is the PRIME example of how a basketball player should be. He's the best ever in his position, he does not rely on just athleticism, ultimate teammate, sacrifices for the team, accepts his role no matter how big or small, no drama... I can go on and on about Tim. Probably Tim won't care if he doesn't get the same farewell as kobe but man as a fan its annoying. I wanna see Tim get the same (if not better) type of farewell kobe is receiving. The players, the league, the fans, the world needs to see how much this man has given to this game. Tim is the complete player you can ever ask for.

:worthy: TIM

[SpursforSix]

Tim is the PRIME example of how a basketball player should be. He's the best ever in his position, he does not rely on just athleticism, ultimate teammate, sacrifices for the team, accepts his role no matter how big or small, no drama... I can go on and on about Tim. Probably Tim won't care if he doesn't get the same farewell as kobe but man as a fan its annoying. I wanna see Tim get the same (if not better) type of farewell kobe is receiving. The players, the league, the fans, the world needs to see how much this man has given to this game. Tim is the complete player you can ever ask for.

:worthy: TIM

There probably won't be a big farewell tour but I guarantee that there will be lots of press and interviews with players and coaches talking about his greatness. And I suspect that if there is a sense that he's going to hang em up at some point, the crowds won't waste their chance to give him the standing ovations.

[Kawhitstorm]

Jordan ruined basketball as much as he helped it, tbh..the NBA reached new heights of popularity when Jordan was on top, but he also spawned an entire generation of ISO/ball-hogging players..

Fortunately, Lebron, the Spurs, Mavs, Celtics and Warriors revived team basketball..

No, zone defense revived team basketball:lol

[rmt]

I think that for casual and superficial viewers, Kobe's game looks more stylish, more flashy than Duncan's. And as we see time and time again, players sometimes can bee very superficial when talking about their sport.
And the media narrative of Kobe as Jordan's successor and as a clutch player with an iron will to win has been shoved down our collective throats for so long, it's not easy to free yourself from that.
That being said, Tim certainly seems to enjoy the utmost respect among his peers. It's not like his greatness remains unrecognized or something.

Even Lebron - unsolicited.

[TD 21]

I disagree with the last part..nothing is worse than NFL coverage, tbh:lol..it's in a different universe of corny, cliche, inaccurate analysis..

They're at least allowed to analyze the technical side of the game, unlike the NBA, who panders to casual fans.


Fact of life :lol


I don't rule out old players, just have to take them with the proverbial grain of salt.

Also, I like watching Chuck because he's entertaining. I've heard him talk like he doesn't take the game very seriously and that nobody wants to talk X and Os for hours. I think TNT is watchable if taken for what it is.

TNT used to be better, back when the jokes were organic and they weren't parodies of themselves. Like any long running show, maybe it was destined to happen eventually, but it fell off right around the time O'Neal joined.

The whole "fans don't want to hear X's and O's" notion never made sense to begin with and is antiquated thinking. If you're interested in something, why wouldn't you want to know more about it? The NFL is broken down to no end and viewers aren't tuning them out.



I don't know that it's a slight to Duncan to call Bryant, "this generation's Jordan". I'm not sure that equates to player's revering Duncan less either. Bryant plays a position that is quite frankly more exciting to watch for most people and has more opportunity to do more highlight worthy plays. Even though there is a huge dropoff between Jordan and Bryant, Kobe is the player most reminiscent of MJ.

I don't think there are many players in the league that would say that Duncan wasn't the better player.

It's both that and a nod to him supposedly being this generation's greatest player.

Shouldn't players understanding/appreciation of the game be deep enough, to be beyond casual fan speak/think, such as "Bryant plays a position that is quite frankly more exciting to watch for most people and has more opportunity to do more highlight worthy plays"?

I disagree. I think most players believe Bryant is better. Most of the compliments about Duncan have little to nothing to do with his talent.

[SpursforSix]

They're at least allowed to analyze the technical side of the game, unlike the NBA, who panders to casual fans.



TNT used to be better, back when the jokes were organic and they weren't parodies of themselves. Like any long running show, maybe it was destined to happen eventually, but it fell off right around the time O'Neal joined.

The whole "fans don't want to hear X's and O's" notion never made sense to begin with and is antiquated thinking. If you're interested in something, why wouldn't you want to know more about it? The NFL is broken down to no end and viewers aren't tuning them out.




It's both that and a nod to him supposedly being this generation's greatest player.

Shouldn't players understanding/appreciation of the game be deep enough, to be beyond casual fan speak/think, such as "Bryant plays a position that is quite frankly more exciting to watch for most people and has more opportunity to do more highlight worthy plays"?

I disagree. I think most players believe Bryant is better. Most of the compliments about Duncan have little to nothing to do with his talent.

I just can't believe that. If that's true, then I guess it proves that most players have low bbiq. I also think that a lot of players say that but don't truly believe it.

[YGWHI]

I would wait to see how the players act when Tim retires before to say they revere Bryant more than him.

[sexinthatsx]

More on that note, I found a hilarious post from realgm regarding Kobe's announcement of retirement:

"This sendoff screams of NBA making money. Why should I care if its his last game in a Kings or Knicks arena?

My opinion......

-Kobe is a horrible teammate who never made anyone better playing with him. No star wanted to sign to play with him. Ruined
his last chance at a ring by blowing it with Dwight. Who leaves the Lakers(the basketball mecca) primed to be their next star center? Someone who knows how Kobe really is?

-He insults Shaq who is tied as the most dominate center of all time with Wilt and acts like he was lazy.

-He pisses off Phil Jackson so much that he even writes a book about how uncoachable he was. Phil came back and coached him again for the money and as a favor to the Buss's. I dont care if he was young, Phil is like a saint of patience to begin with.

-Ruins the confidence of Kwame Brown who was on his way to being a quality rebounder in this league by making him so nervous to mess up he ends up messing uo. Yeah Kwame was a bust but Kobe just rubbed it in so dude could never improve.

-He insults roleplayers just trying to make it in this league like Smush Parker who basically had the same stats at Derek Fisher and acts like he isn't even good enough to talk to him when dude was just an average NBA player and wasn't touted as a superstar to begin with...

-He did nothing in the Laker youth movement to improve any of the players. Just chucked up shots even when he knew he was a liability because of being a narcissist.

-A horrible as a human human being to his wife and to that girl in Denver."

:lol:lol:lol Kwame Brown
:lol:lol:lol Smush Parker

[Spurtacular]

It's because Kobe has always been at the ready for some controversy and storylines, tbh... That's what used to sell magazines, and nowadays online subscriptions... It has little to do with the game (and I'm not taking anything away from early 2000's Kobe who was an athletic monster)...

Similar situation with Bird and Jordan. Bird owned Jordan. It was never in the media's interest to not crown MJ as goat though.

[james evans]

Because the media tells them to, and most people are fucking sheep that can't think for themselves..Simple as that. No other explanation needed

[Capt Bringdown]

Because most people are born to follow.

[Killakobe81]

Similar situation with Bird and Jordan. Bird owned Jordan. It was never in the media's interest to not crown MJ as goat though.

Interesting.

[thiste]

The reason people revere Bryant more than Tim is simply that the media as a whole has been teabagging Kobe for more than 20 years. Simple as that.

[Spurtacular]

Interesting.

Bird beat Jordan 14X in a row; swept him out of the playoffs twice in a row....

[midnightpulp]

It's pretty simple. Kobe's game is "exciting" to watch, especially to an AAU blue chip wing who grew up watching Kobe and playing NBA2K. Duncan's game would only interest the hardcore basketball fan and other bigs (Dirk is really the only big who reveres Kobe). I'd wager bigs from Shaq to Gasol would revere Duncan more.

[DMC]

"Toe the line" not "tow the line". It's not a barge contest. It's an old navy term.

[DMC]

Bird beat Jordan 14X in a row; swept him out of the playoffs twice in a row....

On offense. Bird was an average defender at best.