Wasn't a fan of all the switching, and overplaying at halfcourt on CP3 tonight

[Ditty]

Kinda screwed up things defensively for us imo.

[Kawhitstorm]

The switching strategy doesn't work against Paul/ReDick/Crawford but even then rotation on the switches was horrific.:lol

[Brian Windhorst]

Pop hasn't the first clue how to guard CP3/DJ pnr. It's been evident since last year.

Doesn't help that they go at one of our players relentlessly, to the point where they'll just clear everybody else out and iso against him every single trip down the court.

I won't mention who.

[apalisoc_9]

Pop's biggest weakness as a coach is that he always overreacts. Pop has been overreacting and have been causing the spurs games since 2000. Its nothing new.

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Pop hasn't the first clue how to guard CP3/DJ pnr. It's been evident since last year.

Doesn't help that they go at one of our players relentlessly, to the point where they'll just clear everybody else out and iso against him every single trip down the court.

I won't mention who.
Paul Pierce?

[daslicer]

Doesn't matter since the Spurs won't play the clippers in the playoffs unless the clippers pull off an upset in the second round against the Warriors.

[AFMadison]

Pop hasn't the first clue how to guard CP3/DJ pnr. It's been evident since last year.

Doesn't help that they go at one of our players relentlessly, to the point where they'll just clear everybody else out and iso against him every single trip down the court.

I won't mention who.
Go under, don't hedge. Force CP3 to outshoot us from deep.

[TD 21]

Speaking of this, obviously none of this works against the Warriors either. As we've seen time and time again, switch a big onto Curry, even a mobile one and he puts him on skates and still get's off a high percentage looks from three. Hard hedge/trap and he slips a bounce pass to Green, who either get's a virtually uncontested layup or, if rotated to in time, hits Barnes/Iguodala for an open three. Clearly, this hasn't limited Curry from getting his or made him any less efficient and it's also allowed everyone else to get off.

I'd like to see one coach have the balls to do away with all of this and go back to playing mostly conventional pick and roll defense. I wouldn't have the big drop back to the foul line though; I'd have him maybe a step inside the top of the circle. Close enough to Curry to at least provide a late contest, but not so close as to give up an easy blow by. The guard can fight over the top to also provide a late contest. No more of him having his cake and eating it too.

[MaNu4Tres]

Speaking of this, obviously none of this works against the Warriors either. As we've seen time and time again, switch a big onto Curry, even a mobile one and he puts him on skates and still get's off a high percentage looks from three. Hard hedge/trap and he slips a bounce pass to Green, who either get's a virtually uncontested layup or, if rotated to in time, hits Barnes/Iguodala for an open three. Clearly, this hasn't limited Curry from getting his or made him any less efficient and it's also allowed everyone else to get off.

I'd like to see one coach have the balls to do away with all of this and go back to playing mostly conventional pick and roll defense. I wouldn't have the big drop back to the foul line though; I'd have him maybe a step inside the top of the circle. Close enough to Curry to at least provide a late contest, but not so close as to give up an easy blow by. The guard can fight over the top to also provide a late contest. No more of him having his cake and eating it too.

I was having this conversation the other day (how to defend Curry optimally if you're SA) with a guy on twitter.

Call me crazy, but I'd like to see Pop try to go under on screens for Curry with a bigger defender ( Leonard, Green) and just try to recover and contest as best as possible ( Curry will get his 30+ regardless). When Curry has his defender on his back after the defender goes over the screen, it creates highly efficient 5 on 4/4 on 3 opportunities for his teammates around the paint or wide open from 3.

I rather just try to keep all 5 defenders in front of the ball by going under (and not trying to hedge/trap) to try to minimize all high percentage opportunities for Curry's teammates. IMO

Spurs don't have the personnel to hedge/trap effectively anyway vs. the Warriors for 48 minutes.

[TD 21]

I was having this conversation the other day (how to defend Curry optimally if you're SA) with a guy on twitter.

Call me crazy, but I'd like to see Pop try to go under on screens for Curry with a bigger defender ( Leonard, Green) and just try to recover and contest as best as possible ( Curry will get his 30+ regardless). When Curry has his defender on his back after the defender goes over the screen, it creates highly efficient 5 on 4/4 on 3 opportunities for his teammates around the paint or wide open from 3.

I rather just try to keep all 5 defenders in front of the ball by going under (and not trying to hedge/trap) to try to minimize all high percentage opportunities for Curry's teammates. IMO

Spurs don't have the personnel to hedge/trap effectively anyway vs. the Warriors for 48 minutes.

I like this idea better than mine, since it would allow the big to drop back to the foul line.

Essentially, this would limit their ball movement and bait him into having all he can eat (he's unselfish by nature, so it'll probably mess with him at first), while everyone else only gets crumbs.

Maybe he scores some absurd amount and they win anyway, but it's damn near a given, at this point, that they'll win if teams keep doing the same shit everyone else has tried and failed with.

[apalisoc_9]

I like this idea better than mine, since it would allow the big to drop back to the foul line.

Essentially, this would limit their ball movement and bait him into having all he can eat (he's unselfish by nature, so it'll probably mess with him at first), while everyone else only gets crumbs.

Maybe he scores some absurd amount and they win anyway, but it's damn near a given, at this point, that they'll win if teams keep doing the same shit everyone else has tried and failed with.

I had a similar idea about guarding curry with the ball, the only difference is that i would want a small ball 4 in the game to negate a mobile Green driving to the basket if Curry passes.

I think an even bigger challenge is defending their offball movement. One of the main reasons why I hate simmons is because he seems so inept guarding off ball. It gets extra tricky when both Klay and Curry are both on screen actions. I think if big are around, they should switch on thomposon and Curry.

[MaNu4Tres]

I like this idea better than mine, since it would allow the big to drop back to the foul line.

Essentially, this would limit their ball movement and bait him into having all he can eat (he's unselfish by nature, so it'll probably mess with him at first), while everyone else only gets crumbs.

Maybe he scores some absurd amount and they win anyway, but it's damn near a given, at this point, that they'll win if teams keep doing the same shit everyone else has tried and failed with.

IMO- It's all about defending the TEAM optimally, not 1 player.

[MaNu4Tres]

I had a similar idea about guarding curry with the ball, the only difference is that i would want a small ball 4 in the game to negate a mobile Green driving to the basket if Curry passes.

I think an even bigger challenge is defending their offball movement. One of the main reasons why I hate simmons is because he seems so inept guarding off ball. It gets extra tricky when both Klay and Curry are both on screen actions. I think if big are around, they should switch on thomposon and Curry.

It's not a big challenge if you're prepared. Hard to prepare optimally during 82 game season. The playoffs are a different animal, after hours of film study, awareness is higher and reactions are more disciplined. Depending on the player that's setting the illegal screen or hold, if it's Bogut or Ezeli -- the big needs to help and briefly hedge by trying to put hands up in the passing lane. If they pass it to Ezeli or Bogut off that action, then so be it -- let them try to make a play.

[TD 21]

I had a similar idea but guarding curry with the ball, the only difference is that i would want a small ball in the game to negate a mobile Green driving to the basket if Curry passes.

I think an even bigger challenge is defending their offball movement. One of the main reasons why I hate simmons is because he seems so inept guarding off ball. It gets extra tricky when both Klay and Curry are both on screen actions. I think if big are around, they should on thomposon when hes on the side and if not switch with curry.

For obvious reasons, the Spurs can't afford to go small and by having the bigs drop back to the foul line, they should be in position to corral Green on the roll, while allowing the other three defenders to stick to their shooters.

I was thinking about Curry's and Thompson's off ball screens too and I wouldn't switch on Curry either. I'm 50/50 on Thompson, but he too has become adept at making the pocket pass to the rolling big. I'd probably just lock and trail. Leonard and Green should be their primary defenders and they have the length to potentially bother some from behind.


IMO- It's all about defending the TEAM optimally, not 1 player.

Curry is the team offensively.

[look_at_g_shred]

Play man to man defense and when the pick comes go under and contest the best you can. It beats having someone wide open in the corner for a 3 everytime!

[apalisoc_9]

It's not a big challenge if you're prepared. Hard to prepare optimally during 82 game season. The playoffs are a different animal, after hours of film study, awareness is higher and reactions are more disciplined. Depending on the player that's setting the illegal screen or hold, if it's Bogut or Ezeli -- the big needs to help and briefly hedge by trying to put hands up in the passing lane. If they pass it to Ezeli or Bogut off that action, then so be it -- let them try to make a play.

I was just saying guarding the warriors off ball play with the starters is a bigger challenge than curry pnp or Pnr. That's where curry and Thomposon get a good chunk of their threes and easy bucket twos.

[MaNu4Tres]

For obvious reasons, the Spurs can't afford to go small and by having the bigs drop back to the foul line, they should be in position to corral Green on the roll, while allowing the other three defenders to stick to their shooters.

I was thinking about Curry's and Thompson's off ball screens too and I wouldn't switch on Curry either. I'm 50/50 on Thompson, but he too has become adept at making the pocket pass to the rolling big. I'd probably just lock and trail. Leonard and Green should be their primary defenders and they have the length to potentially bother some from behind.



Curry is the team offensively.

You understand what I mean.

[apalisoc_9]

For obvious reasons, the Spurs can't afford to go small and by having the bigs drop back to the foul line, they should be in position to corral Green on the roll, while allowing the other three defenders to stick to their shooters.

I was thinking about Curry's and Thompson's off ball screens too and I wouldn't switch on Curry either. I'm 50/50 on Thompson, but he too has become adept at making the pocket pass to the rolling big. I'd probably just lock and trail. Leonard and Green should be their primary defenders and they have the length to potentially bother some from behind.



Curry is the team offensively.

Perhaps not small, but a mobile big. Diaw would be perfect but sometimes hes lazy. Hell probably start playing better in the playoffs though.

I'm interested in knowing the stats for % of three points in the corner not made by curry. I think a good stats to consider when figuring out ways to guard curry or justify guarding on ball curry a certain way..cant find this stat sadly.

[MaNu4Tres]

I was just saying guarding the warriors off ball play with the starters is a bigger challenge than curry pnp or Pnr. That's where curry and Thomposon get a good chunk of their threes and easy bucket twos.

True. You just try to contest the pass and shot as best you can without over committing when you're closing out on Curry -- you can over commit with Thompson but still have to be disciplined with it.

San Antonio just has to try to minimize all of Curry's playmaking opportunities, which can be from PnR action or even off the ball action off screens. IMO

[TD 21]

You understand what I mean.

I'm not sure I do, but it's probably semantics.



Perhaps not small, but a mobile big. Diaw would be perfect but sometimes hes lazy. Hell probably start playing better in the playoffs though.

I'm interested in knowing the stats for % of three points in the corner not made by curry. I think a good stats to consider when figuring out ways to guard curry or justify guarding on ball curry a certain way..cant find this stat sadly.

No matter what they do, Diaw will be crucial in this match-up, but they still need Duncan's rim protection/rebounding and this scheme should give him a better chance to succeed.

I'd like to know that stat too. I've watched a lot of them the past two seasons and it seems like Barnes/Iguodala shoot a ridiculously high percentage from the corners and make virtually every critical one.

[apalisoc_9]

Freaking NBA.com, just browsed through it and I cant find out the specific stats "corner three point %" with curry on ball and Thompson and Green on the floor.

With advamcmenet of analytics, youd think a stat like this would be easy to sort out. SMDH.

[SpursFan86]

Basketballreference has stats for corner 3P% in the "Shooting" section:

http://i.imgur.com/yyBg1be.png

Draymond/Klay/Iguodala/Barbosa all shoot above 40% on corner 3s, and Barnes shootings about 37%.

[apalisoc_9]

Basketballreference has stats for corner 3P% in the "Shooting" section:

http://i.imgur.com/yyBg1be.png

Draymond/Klay/Iguodala/Barbosa all shoot above 40% on corner 3s, and Barnes shootings about 37%.

Klay, iggy, Barnes is who you wanna look at. It seems like they shot over 42% on average..That's deadly. Now, what's curry percentage PnR three bombs by curry and what's Draymond and Bogut % as a rollman scorer?

Should give us the answer on how to defend on how to defend GSW when curry is running PnR at least from a statistical standpoint. Again the bigger challenge are off ball defense though.

[YGWHI]

The "zone" against Cavs in the whole 3rd quarter, the "switching" against Clips...What unique and innovative strategies! The Spurs hired a defensive coach like Messina to help Pop/Spurs build the architecture for a new defense, right? Amazing job :tu

[tbdog]

I like this idea better than mine, since it would allow the big to drop back to the foul line.

Essentially, this would limit their ball movement and bait him into having all he can eat (he's unselfish by nature, so it'll probably mess with him at first), while everyone else only gets crumbs.

Maybe he scores some absurd amount and they win anyway, but it's damn near a given, at this point, that they'll win if teams keep doing the same shit everyone else has tried and failed with.

It just wont work. Shooting 33% on 3's is as good as shooting 50% on 2's. And you bet Curry will shoot an absurd amount better if you go under the screen. He is currently shooting at about 45%.

[TD 21]

It just wont work. Shooting 33% on 3's is as good as shooting 50% on 2's. And you bet Curry will shoot an absurd amount better if you go under the screen. He is currently shooting at about 45%.

Obviously, there's no guarantees. Of course, this could blow up in the Spurs' face and if it does, they can adjust.

But like I said, it's clear at this point that the same old stuff isn't going to get it done. So the rest of the elite teams can either concede the championship or attempt to do something about it.

[SAGirl]

The "zone" against Cavs in the whole 3rd quarter, the "switching" against Clips...What unique and innovative strategies! The Spurs hired a defensive coach like Messina to help Pop/Spurs build the architecture for a new defense, right? Amazing job :tu
The zone was in a game we had no centers whatsoever, Timmy out with sore knee, Lamarcus out, and also in serious foul trouble.

The switches in the Clippers game were not the worst of it. WE got killed on PnR as always with that team. Tony got scored on by P.Pierce maybe 3 times.. it was not the whole game... now the the lobs were a killer I cannot even count how many we got... and obviously Danny and Simmons were run through screens fail!!!

[tbdog]

Obviously, there's no guarantees. Of course, this could blow up in the Spurs' face and if it does, they can adjust.

But like I said, it's clear at this point that the same old stuff isn't going to get it done. So the rest of the elite teams can either concede the championship or attempt to do something about it.

There hasn't been a player since prime shaq that makes a team readjust their entire defense like Curry does. Purely going under a screen is not even a solution. There are only a few guards in the NBA where you can go under a screen. Curry will hit 40%+ a few meters outside the 3 point line. It is hard to change your defensive strategy during the regular season. In the playoffs, you just gonna have to trust the coaches to come up with the best solution at stopping the team get what they want.

[r0drig0lac]

starting Kyle as pointguard

[Chinook]

The Spurs are just going to have to let Paul try to beat him by himself. Just play him straight up without help or switching. CP3 isn't dropping 50 on anybody, and if you take away his assists, he'll tire out.

As far as Curry, I really do think the secret is playing Kawhi on Draymond and Green on Curry (and LMA on Barnes). That way, you you just switch that PnR. Let Draymond try to win a game posting up good defenders, or let Barnes try to win by taking LMA off the dribble. If you start Kyle at the four, it makes the switching even easier. I think he'll be able to cover Curry a lot better than people are expecting, as he has Kawhi's length and Green's timing.

GS might start screening with Bogut, but obviously, you just hedge hard in that case and let the Aussie try to beat you.

[TD 21]

There hasn't been a player since prime shaq that makes a team readjust their entire defense like Curry does. Purely going under a screen is not even a solution. There are only a few guards in the NBA where you can go under a screen. Curry will hit 40%+ a few meters outside the 3 point line. It is hard to change your defensive strategy during the regular season. In the playoffs, you just gonna have to trust the coaches to come up with the best solution at stopping the team get what they want.

Again, no one said anything about it being a solution; it's an idea and obviously, I wouldn't do it during the regular season.

[YGWHI]

The zone was in a game we had no centers whatsoever, Timmy out with sore knee, Lamarcus out, and also in serious foul trouble.
If you lose your big guys, don't employ for the rest of the game a strategy that try to compensate for the lack of centers neutralizing your best perimeter defender. If one of your best defenders really bothers and has a statistical impact on the best opposing player, don't ruin it.

You use zone in specific situations for a few minutes to get your opponent out of rhythm. The strategy helps to hide some weaknesses on defense but if you don't mix things up and play pressure man-to-man in the perimeter and also collapse in the paint to avoid dribble-penetration and force outside shots, that zone neutralize the one-on-one defense of most defenders and the other teams adjust very quickly, that's why you can't play zone for entire quarters/games.

LeBron scored just 8 points in the first half then in the 3rd quarter scored most of his 29 points on Patty and Manu...It didn't work.


The switches in the Clippers game were not the worst of it. WE got killed on PnR as always with that team. Tony got scored on by P.Pierce maybe 3 times.. it was not the whole game... now the the lobs were a killer I cannot even count how many we got... and obviously Danny and Simmons were run through screens fail!!!
And all these things don't make you think why the Pop/Messina can't hide their PGs on defense? Or why they can't employ a new strategy to beat the screens? The Spurs have two of the best perimeter defenders in the league but can't guard guys running through screens...With that talent on defense, a better strategy would help...

[SAGirl]

Kawhi didn't play the last Clippers game. I think Pop is still trying different things which is what the RS is for, as well as trying different personnel, but in both cases you have a weak point bc the availability of personnel already limited the available options.

[YGWHI]

Kawhi played in the last playoffs and the Spurs had the same problem with Clippers double-high-screens...

[SAGirl]

Kawhi played in the last playoffs and the Spurs had the same problem with Clippers double-high-screens...
Now you are changing the subject.