Kawhi should be the MVP of the league

[midnightpulp]

provided the criterion is still based around which player is most important to his team.

Sans Kawhi:

- Blown out by the Clippers missing Griffin.

- Looking like absolute trash defensively against a bottom feeder.

Wardell's number 2 (Raymond) is arguably a top 5 player himself. And Klay is probably the best SG in the league.

Also, no agendas in this thread. I like the Spurs overall roster, but it's evident that Kawhi is the lynchpin that unites all those parts.

[Mnky]

To be honest.. yes he should be in the discussion.

To be more honest... they're playing then Lakers at home better than they did last time in San Antonio with him.


His case with the team is stronger than his case without them in my opinion.

[apalisoc_9]

I dont know, but hes clearly the second most valuable player for his team in terms of value. Durant is probably the most valuable.

The narrative that benefits pop kills Kawhi and is probably the reason why TD is not a consensus top 5 player of all time.

[TheGreatYacht]

I disagree. Fat head is just that horrible

[apalisoc_9]

It's also pretty evident that Pop enjoys the recognition. Ive never seen him kill the obvious false narrative that casuals belief in. TD and Kawhi is forever going to have a minus on their resume for being great teamates. Which is pretty stupid.

At least kawhi has 3-4 years of basketball to kill that narrative but TD doesnt...even though 2000-2007 islargely TD.

[midnightpulp]

I dont know, but hes clearly the second most valuable player for his team in terms of value. Durant is probably the most valuable.

The narrative that benefits pop kills Kawhi and is probably the reason why TD is not a consensus top 5 player of all time.

One thing that should help Kawhi's case (it won't because the media is retarded) is that he has no perimeter running mates that are all-star worthy. Having 2 perimeter studs in today's game is as important as having two frontline studs/deep frontline was in the Lakers/Spurs era. Durant has Westbrook. Curry has Klay. Lebron has Kyrie. Kawhi has Danny Green (great defender, yes, but his offensive game is such shit, he can't take the pressure off Kawhi for stretches like Westbrook can with Durant or Klay can with Curry) and/or an inconsistent Tony Parker.

Kawhi carries more load than any other wing/guard in the league.

[apalisoc_9]

One thing that should help Kawhi's case (it won't because the media is retarded) is that he has no perimeter running mates that are all-star worthy. Having 2 perimeter studs in today's game is as important as having two frontline studs/deep frontline was in the Lakers/Spurs era. Durant has Westbrook. Curry has Klay. Lebron has Kyrie. Kawhi has Danny Green (great defender, yes, but his offensive game is such shit, he can't take the pressure off Kawhi for stretches like Westbrook can with Durant or Klay can with Curry) and/or an inconsistent Tony Parker.

Kawhi carries more load than any other wing/guard in the league.

You are going to have a hard time convicing casuals and mainstream writers though. At least hardcore guys have him as the 2nd best player in the world but those are very few...were talking haralabos, duncan, leroux, lowe etc...but those people only appeal to hardcore fans. Most casuals whatch first take etc.

[Thomas82]

It would be nice to see him get it.

[apalisoc_9]

Ive been saying the last 6 months though before they signed Aldridge, Kawhi deserves an All-Star Caliber Guard....

[SPURt]

I love Kawhi and he should no doubt be in the discussion. I think if you take Curry off the Warriors it would be more detrimental to that team.

[midnightpulp]

Ive been saying the last 6 months though before they signed Aldridge, Kawhi deserves an All-Star Caliber Guard....

LMA is the perfect front court fit for him, I think, since he can stretch out the D being a midrange threat. The Spurs just need to find or develop a backcourt player who can do something off the dribble. When Tony is on, he fits the role, but who knows how many more gallons he has left in the tank. Same with Manu. I like Green, but he's too specialized. Simmons has the perfect style, but he's obviously too raw and has probably reached near his peak. His defense is also suspect.

If we could give Green Simmons' penetration ability, it'd be perfect.

[Hoops Czar]

provided the criterion is still based around which player is most important to his team.

Sans Kawhi:

- Blown out by the Clippers missing Griffin.

- Looking like absolute trash defensively against a bottom feeder.

Wardell's number 2 (Raymond) is arguably a top 5 player himself. And Klay is probably the best SG in the league.

Also, no agendas in this thread. I like the Spurs overall roster, but it's evident that Kawhi is the lynchpin that unites all those parts.

The defense has looked like shit for awhile now. First, it was because Duncan was out. Now, it's because Leonard is out. Not buying it. Good offenses can run through this defense like it's nobody's business. The real problem is the lack of fluidity with the offense. When the defense struggles, the offense can't keep pace.

[Hoops Czar]

I dont know, but hes clearly the second most valuable player for his team in terms of value. Durant is probably the most valuable.

The narrative that benefits pop kills Kawhi and is probably the reason why TD is not a consensus top 5 player of all time.

He's definitely not ahead of Steph Curry. The dude missed the Mavs game and GS lost by 19.

[apalisoc_9]

He's definitely not ahead of Steph Curry. The dude missed the Mavs game and GS lost by 19.

And? The spurs got blwon out by the clippers minus griffin.

[Robz4000]

The defense has looked like shit for awhile now. First, it was because Duncan was out. Now, it's because Leonard is out. Not buying it. Good offenses can run through this defense like it's nobody's business. The real problem is the lack of fluidity with the offense. When the defense struggles, the offense can't keep pace.

I agree for the most part, but the whole Duncan/Kawhi being out as a main reason for the defense sucking is valid seeing as they're the two best defenders on the team.

[DenialTwist]

Kawhi will get some honorable mentions but Curry is the favorite to win b2b MVPs. Anyways, the Spurs managed to make the lakers look respectable tonight and Kobe is having himself a game against SloMo. Any other contender would be up twenty on the worst defensive team in the NBA. The lakers are in tank mode this season, and remember when they gave up 72 points in the paint one time. This game should not even be close but as usual Clarkson and Kobe going off. Guard defense is a big problem for the Spurs. Parker was decent on the offensive end but he can't guard anyone. I was laughing when he was put on Clarkson to start the game, Clarkson then went 4/4 from three.

[100%duncan]

It's also pretty evident that Pop enjoys the recognition. Ive never seen him kill the obvious false narrative that casuals belief in. TD and Kawhi is forever going to have a minus on their resume for being great teamates. Which is pretty stupid.

At least kawhi has 3-4 years of basketball to kill that narrative but TD doesnt...even though 2000-2007 islargely TD.

I disagree. Pop keeps repeating that he just got lucky with Drob and TD.


OP: I still think Curry is the mvp because if you remove him from that team then Raymond wouldnt be as good as he was. And Klay is a choker.

[Spurtacular]

Curry way more important to the Warriors. That team would be sh** without him.

[Hoops Czar]

And? The spurs got blwon out by the clippers minus griffin.

The Spurs lost by 30 to the Warriors and 17 to the Cavs WITH Leonard. Does that make Duncan team MVP? Without Curry, the Warriors are a slightly above average team. Not pooh-poohing Leonard's importance, but Curry is in a league of his own right now.

[Aztecfan03]

He's definitely not ahead of Steph Curry. The dude missed the Mavs game and GS lost by 19.
He didn't miss the portland game and still lost by 32.

[apalisoc_9]

In any case, Kawhi is on healthy pace to become the best player in the world.

[spurtech09]

Speaking of Kawhi......when will he be able to return?

[UNT Eagles 2016]

IDK, without Wardell the Dubs look like shit. They're probably a 4-6 seed without him tbh

[steeledl]

Retarded. This is a one man race as it should be

[bic50]

The Spurs lost by 30 to the Warriors and 17 to the Cavs WITH Leonard. Does that make Duncan team MVP? Without Curry, the Warriors are a slightly above average team. Not pooh-poohing Leonard's importance, but Curry is in a league of his own right now.

You've been pooh-poohing on leonard ever since he was drafted. :lol

[Hoops Czar]

You've been pooh-poohing on leonard ever since he was drafted. :lol

Join Date: 07-19-2015 :lol Not denying it. Why are you posting with your troll account? Are you in hiding?

[Kawhitstorm]

Kawhi is in the Larry Bird situation where he was the best player among a couple of HOFer teammates & plays on a team which has had continuous success for decades. Meanwhile Curry is like Isiah Thomas who played with All-Star players whom he overshadowed with his flashy game & plays for a franchise that didn't have recent success until his stardom.

The issue is that Kawhi has tattoos & a cornrow meanwhile Curry is light-skin plus lacks facial hair.:lol

[itzsoweezee]

provided the criterion is still based around which player is most important to his team.

Sans Kawhi:

- Looking like absolute trash defensively against a bottom feeder.


Spurs looked like trash the last time they played the lakers too, and Kawhi played that game.

[midnightpulp]

Spurs looked like trash the last time they played the lakers too, and Kawhi played that game.

Defensively.

Last game the Spurs gave up 102 points on 39% shooting. This game, they gave up 113 points on 49% shooting.

[bic50]

Join Date: 07-19-2015 :lol Not denying it. Why are you posting with your troll account? Are you in hiding?

What's there to hide from?

[rasuo214]

Kawhi gets discredited because he plays with 3 HOFers, as if those guys are in their prime vs the tail end of their careers. Not to discredit the Big3 because having them around helped Kawhi's development on (not having a lot of pressure to perform early in his career) and off the court.


Still it'll be tough to make a case for anyone other than Curry to win the MVP this season.

[Mnky]

And? The spurs got blwon out by the clippers minus griffin.

They're better without Griffin defensively and offensively.

[BatManu20]

Curry's a lock. KD will likely finish 2nd.

[Kawhitstorm]

Curry's a lock. KD will likely finish 2nd.

WestBrick will get more votes than Durant.

Most likely:
-Curry- unanimous
-Kawhi
-LeBron
-WestBrick
-CP3
-Servant

[r0drig0lac]

Curry >>

[Old School 44]

What's there to hide from?

[T_L_P]

Sorry, but Curry is the clear-cut MVP and best player in the world.

[313]

I disagree. Fat head is just that horrible

[313]

We have no back up SF so yeah

[vander]

Pop's lineups, missing Manu, and whether or not LMA shows up to play are all factors as well. Not just Kawhi missing. Spurs can beat all but 4 or 5 teams without Kawhi. And all but 1 team with him...

[spursistan]

In a dogfight against the transparently tanking and shorthanded Suns without him..It is sad and embarrassing, really..but it puts in sharp relief the above statement..

[apalisoc_9]

The spurs without Leonard is so shitty.lol

[TampaDude]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances2/500x/4416571.jpg

[TD 21]

provided the criterion is still based around which player is most important to his team.

Sans Kawhi:

- Blown out by the Clippers missing Griffin.

- Looking like absolute trash defensively against a bottom feeder.

Wardell's number 2 (Raymond) is arguably a top 5 player himself. And Klay is probably the best SG in the league.

Also, no agendas in this thread. I like the Spurs overall roster, but it's evident that Kawhi is the lynchpin that unites all those parts.

That's such flawed criteria.

Obviously, a player of Leonard's magnitude would be highly important to any team, but part of the reason he's so important to this one, is the lack of wing depth.

Even if Ginobili were healthy, they need him with the bench and none of the other options is a fit in the starting lineup nor all that appealing to begin with, so of course that exacerbates the loss.

The reality is, there is no race for the MVP. Curry is having a historically great season (impacting the game as much as possible for someone of his stature) and barring a significant injury, had it wrapped up 20 something games in.

[DAF86]

I like our chances in a no-Kawhi, no-Curry Spurs/Warriors series. So nah, I think Curry is the MVP.

[spurraider21]

I like our chances in a no-Kawhi, no-Curry Spurs/Warriors series. So nah, I think Curry is the MVP.
:lmao

[dabom]

I like our chances in a no-Kawhi, no-Curry Spurs/Warriors series. So nah, I think Curry is the MVP.

Manu gonna turn back the clock, tony gonna turn back the clock, tim gonna turn back the clock, green stops being a role player, LMA gonna hulk us to a 7 game series win. :lmao

[apalisoc_9]

I like our chances in a no-Kawhi, no-Curry Spurs/Warriors series. So nah, I think Curry is the MVP.

The warriors would beat the Spurs in 6.

[bic50]

I like our chances in a no-Kawhi, no-Curry Spurs/Warriors series. So nah, I think Curry is the MVP.

You can't be serious.

[midnightpulp]

That's such flawed criteria.

Obviously, a player of Leonard's magnitude would be highly important to any team, but part of the reason he's so important to this one, is the lack of wing depth.

Even if Ginobili were healthy, they need him with the bench and none of the other options is a fit in the starting lineup nor all that appealing to begin with, so of course that exacerbates the loss.

The reality is, there is no race for the MVP. Curry is having a historically great season (impacting the game as much as possible for someone of his stature) and barring a significant injury, had it wrapped up 20 something games in.

That's what makes his case. Kawhi really is on an island out there on the perimeter. Sure, Green can take some pressure off him defensively, but that's about it. If Kawhi can't score, we basically have no wing scoring. Wardell can have a bad game, and Klay can still light it up for 35. Even Harrison Barnes is a threat to drop 20 quite often.

[NameLess Scrub]

Take Curry out of the Warriors and there goes the spacing, the video game, and the historic season.

[SpursFan86]

The reality is, there is no race for the MVP. Curry is having a historically great season (impacting the game as much as possible for someone of his stature) and barring a significant injury, had it wrapped up 20 something games in.

+1

I think Kawhi is a monster, and is definitely top 3 in the MVP race...but there's no one particularly close to Curry right now. Maybe if he slows down (feel like I've been saying this since December :lol ) it'll become more of a discussion, but right now there's no debate.

Curry has Kawhi trumped by a wide margin in practically every advanced metric out there:

RPM: Curry - 10.55, Kawhi - 8.75
PER: Curry - 31.9 (would be the highest single season PER of all-time), Kawhi - 25.7
WS/48: Curry - .332 (would be 2nd highest of all-time), Kawhi - .279
BPM: Curry - 12.5 (would be 4th highest of all-time), Kawhi - 7.9
Raw on/off: Curry - +27.0 (+20.4 with Curry on, -6.6 with him off), Kawhi - +5.2 (+15.4 with him on, +10.2 with him off)

Sure, you can point to Curry having guys like Klay and Draymond. But when you look at the numbers, everything revolves around Curry. Even when Draymond/Klay are both on the court, the Warriors fall off a cliff when Steph sits out. I'm not sure the Warriors have any particularly successful lineups that don't involve Curry.

Throw in the fact that the Warriors are on pace to break the record for most wins in a season, and the gap just gets even wider.

Kawhi is extremely important to this team, but our team doesn't revolve around him the same way the Warriors revolve around Curry. That's not even a dig at Kawhi - our team does revolve around him quite a bit. Curry is just on another level when it comes to impacting games and changing how other teams choose to defend.

[DAF86]

:lmao


Manu gonna turn back the clock, tony gonna turn back the clock, tim gonna turn back the clock, green stops being a role player, LMA gonna hulk us to a 7 game series win. :lmao


The warriors would beat the Spurs in 6.


You can't be serious.

Should have wrote: "I like our chances better in a no-Kawhi, no-Curry series than in an injury free one". I don't know if we would beat them but I would rather play them without the fucking beast that can make 30 footers like lay-ups and on which 90% of the Warriors offense revolves around, tbh.

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

This why many see Kawhi as the best TWO-WAY player in the league right now. Numbers and current showing of the Spurs are proving just that.

[Ruler]

I dislike Curry quite a bit and I'm a huge Kawhi fan, but come on. Steph is simply amazing this year. I've never seen anything like it. The only way Kawhi could even come close is if he was putting up more numbers (meaning more minutes). Something like: 25pts, 8rbs, 5ast, 2stl, 1blk on 50/45/90 and <1.5 TO's / game. But with all the weapons SA currently has and the minutes Leonard plays, that's simply impossible.

[Kawhitstorm]

I dislike Curry quite a bit and I'm a huge Kawhi fan, but come on. Steph is simply amazing this year. I've never seen anything like it. The only way Kawhi could even come close is if he was putting up more numbers (meaning more minutes). Something like: 25pts, 8rbs, 5ast, 2stl, 1blk on 50/45/90 and <1.5 TO's / game. But with all the weapons SA currently has and the minutes Leonard plays, that's simply impossible.

Who cares about REGULAR season MVPs, all Kawhi cares about is the one awarded in June.:wakeup

Curry: 0-1
Kawhi: 1-1

[lilbthebasedgod]

Not even close. Honestly, he's not our most important defensive player and his offense has slowed. Curry should be MVP. People seriously underrate his defense btw.

[K...]

Who cares about REGULAR season MVPs, all Kawhi cares about is the one awarded in June.:wakeup

Curry: 0-1
Kawhi: 1-1

This is the dumbest thing. Regular season mvps are about 10x more important than finals mvp, unless you're a hard core Parker fan and then it's much closer.

[Spurs_619]

Kawhi gets discredited because he plays with 3 HOFers, as if those guys are in their prime vs the tail end of their careers. Not to discredit the Big3 because having them around helped Kawhi's development on (not having a lot of pressure to perform early in his career) and off the court.


Still it'll be tough to make a case for anyone other than Curry to win the MVP this season..

This has always bothered me people try to make it seem like kawhi got to play with a prime big three.

[tonight...you]

It's also pretty evident that Pop enjoys the recognition. Ive never seen him kill the obvious false narrative that casuals belief in. TD and Kawhi is forever going to have a minus on their resume for being great teamates. Which is pretty stupid.

At least kawhi has 3-4 years of basketball to kill that narrative but TD doesnt...even though 2000-2007 islargely TD.
Honestly- why give one shit about casual/vanilla fans/writers?
Trophies are the real deal, not articles and comments from the pub.
Trophies are physical evidence. Everything else is opinion, conjecture and hypotheticals that mean zip.

You guys stressing about casual fans are letting them live rent free and you become inefficient posters just like them.

[tonight...you]

Who cares about REGULAR season MVPs, all Kawhi cares about is the one awarded in June.:wakeup

Curry: 0-1
Kawhi: 1-1

The LOB. Not the Final's MVP.
Ask him which one is more important yourself.

[TD 21]

Kawhi gets discredited because he plays with 3 HOFers, as if those guys are in their prime vs the tail end of their careers. Not to discredit the Big3 because having them around helped Kawhi's development on (not having a lot of pressure to perform early in his career) and off the court.


Still it'll be tough to make a case for anyone other than Curry to win the MVP this season.

They're not typical post prime players though. All three are superior play makers to him, which alleviates the exact burden most players of his magnitude have to shoulder.

Other than Pop, no one has gotten more credit for the renaissance the past five years, to the point now where some claim he's the second best player in the league. That's unprecedented praise for a perimeter player that offers little in the way of play making.

It's the big three (especially Ginobili) that don't get enough credit for their actual play, because there's still a lot of ignorant people covering the game, who still rely heavily on box score/counting stats.



That's what makes his case. Kawhi really is on an island out there on the perimeter. Sure, Green can take some pressure off him defensively, but that's about it. If Kawhi can't score, we basically have no wing scoring. Wardell can have a bad game, and Klay can still light it up for 35. Even Harrison Barnes is a threat to drop 20 quite often.

Still flawed criteria. The particular roster construction of any given candidate should be secondary. Curry's offensive impact is primarily responsible for his teammates success and would be virtually the same, no matter the team around him. Would Leonard's, if he had to shoulder the play making burden a player of his magnitude typically does?



+1

I think Kawhi is a monster, and is definitely top 3 in the MVP race...but there's no one particularly close to Curry right now. Maybe if he slows down (feel like I've been saying this since December :lol ) it'll become more of a discussion, but right now there's no debate.

Curry has Kawhi trumped by a wide margin in practically every advanced metric out there:

RPM: Curry - 10.55, Kawhi - 8.75
PER: Curry - 31.9 (would be the highest single season PER of all-time), Kawhi - 25.7
WS/48: Curry - .332 (would be 2nd highest of all-time), Kawhi - .279
BPM: Curry - 12.5 (would be 4th highest of all-time), Kawhi - 7.9
Raw on/off: Curry - +27.0 (+20.4 with Curry on, -6.6 with him off), Kawhi - +5.2 (+15.4 with him on, +10.2 with him off)

Sure, you can point to Curry having guys like Klay and Draymond. But when you look at the numbers, everything revolves around Curry. Even when Draymond/Klay are both on the court, the Warriors fall off a cliff when Steph sits out. I'm not sure the Warriors have any particularly successful lineups that don't involve Curry.

Throw in the fact that the Warriors are on pace to break the record for most wins in a season, and the gap just gets even wider.

Kawhi is extremely important to this team, but our team doesn't revolve around him the same way the Warriors revolve around Curry. That's not even a dig at Kawhi - our team does revolve around him quite a bit. Curry is just on another level when it comes to impacting games and changing how other teams choose to defend.

The biggest difference is, Curry is primarily responsible for his teammates success offensively; Leonard isn't. Even though he's clearly the best player, the Spurs still do things in a mostly collective fashion.

Thompson and Green, are ancillary offensive players, who thrive based off of the unprecedented attention Curry draws 30 feet from the basket. Put them on any other team and they're not thought of nearly as highly.

[Kawhitstorm]

This is the dumbest thing. Regular season mvps are about 10x more important than finals mvp, unless you're a hard core Parker fan and then it's much closer.

:rolleyes................:lobt2:

[YGWHI]

It's so nice to have a Spur there again. :toast

http://i.imgur.com/3o71Nq3.jpg

[BillMc]

It's so nice to have a Spur there again. :toast

http://i.imgur.com/3o71Nq3.jpg
+1

[spursistan]

Chris Paul should be up there..Kawhi starting to miss many games will hurt his potential 2nd place behind Curry..

[look_at_g_shred]

Chris Paul should be up there..Kawhi starting to miss many games will hurt his potential 2nd place behind Curry..
as long as he don't miss more than 10.. I think he should be fine..

[daslicer]

Kawhi winning MVP and the spurs then possibly losing in the WCF to the Warriors would feel pretty hollow. It would be like a '95 Dream-Robinson moment all over again.

[SpursFan86]

This road trip change your mind any midnightpulp ? :lol

[buttsR4rebounding]

This road trip change your mind any midnightpulp ? :lol
How about Steph Curry single handlied willing gsw to the win over okc last night on a bom ankle?

[UNT Eagles 2016]

Kawhi winning MVP and the spurs then possibly losing in the WCF to the Warriors would feel pretty hollow. It would be like a '95 Dream-Robinson moment all over again.

Or how about this scenario: Curry repeats MVP, but Kawhi takes his cookie in the WCF and the Spurs kick the Dublets' asses?

:flag:

[SpursFan86]

How about Steph Curry single handlied willing gsw to the win over okc last night on a bom ankle?

GS just finished a 7-game road trip as well - that's what I was referring to, not our RRT.

In those 7 games Curry averaged 36/7.5/5.5 on a 74 TS%. They went 6-1 on the trip with wins in OKC/LAC/Miami/Atlanta.

[midnightpulp]

This road trip change your mind any midnightpulp ? :lol

You mean in favor of Kawhi?

Kawhi absent: 111 and 113 points given up to the shitty Suns and Lakers.

Kawhi returns: Average opponent PPG: 88.

Now, I'm not claiming that Kawhi is a better player than Wardell, but I think he's slightly more important to the Spurs than Curry is to the Warriors.

If that's still the criteria (which I necessarily don't agree with), then Kawhi deserves the MVP. If it's best player in the league, then Curry or even James are the front-runners (Nash won 2 straight MVPs based on the former concept. Duncan or KG were still the best overall players in the league in '05 and '06).

[DrSteffo]

Homer fans are cute tbh

[SpursFan86]

You mean in favor of Kawhi?

Kawhi absent: 111 and 113 points given up to the shitty Suns and Lakers.

Kawhi returns: Average opponent PPG: 88.

Now, I'm not claiming that Kawhi is a better player than Wardell, but I think he's slightly more important to the Spurs than Curry is to the Warriors.

If that's still the criteria (which I necessarily don't agree with), then Kawhi deserves the MVP. If it's best player in the league, then Curry or even James are the front-runners (Nash won 2 straight MVPs based on the former concept. Duncan or KG were still the best overall players in the league in '05 and '06).

Ehh, I view the "most important to his team" as sort of a tiebreaker if two guys are relatively even in terms of production. When you have someone like Curry who's breaking records left and right and on pace to have a top 5 season of all-time, it's just not a question.

And fwiw, I still disagree with the idea that Kawhi is more important to the Spurs than Curry is to GS. Look at it this way: you agree that the Spurs as of now are longshots to beat GS in a series, yeah? What if you took off Kawhi and Curry from each team? Would you still consider the Spurs as longshots to win?

I know on/off numbers aren't infallible, but look at Golden State's #'s with and without Curry. Even when Draymond/Klay are both playing, GS is still mediocre as long as Curry isn't out there. On this recent road trip, the Warriors had a +17 net rating with Curry on the court, and a -6 net rating with Curry not playing.

[midnightpulp]

Ehh, I view the "most important to his team" as sort of a tiebreaker if two guys are relatively even in terms of production. When you have someone like Curry who's breaking records left and right and on pace to have a top 5 season of all-time, it's just not a question.

And fwiw, I still disagree with the idea that Kawhi is more important to the Spurs than Curry is to GS. Look at it this way: you agree that the Spurs as of now are longshots to beat GS in a series, yeah? What if you took off Kawhi and Curry from each team? Would you still consider the Spurs as longshots to win?

On the limited evidence we have (blown out by a Griffin-less Clippers team, and giving up 112ppg to two of the worst teams in the league), I think Golden State minus Curry is a better team than the Spurs without Leonard.

Even their advanced metrics (other than PER, which mostly considers offensive production) aren't that far apart. What makes Kawhi's case for me is Raymond being on that team, who is a top 5-7 player himself. The myth is that Curry made Draymond, but the Warriors did jackshit until Draymond came of age. Not to mention Klay perfectly complements Curry.

[SpursFan86]

Even their advanced metrics (other than PER, which mostly considers offensive production) aren't that far apart.

Sorry but this just really isn't true.

PER: Curry - 32.9 (would set the record), Kawhi = 26.0
WS/48: Curry - .340 (would set the record), Kawhi = .287
BPM: Curry - 13.3 (would set the record), Kawhi = 8.1
VORP: Curry - 7.3, Kawhi = 4.5
RPM: Curry - 10.35, Kawhi = 8.93 (that difference is almost as much as the difference between Kawhi and 6th place Chris Paul)

Warriors with Draymond and Klay both playing, no Curry: Net RTG = +2.5
Warriors with all 3 playing: Net RTG = +21.8

I'm just not seeing it man. I love Kawhi and I think he has a good argument over anyone else in the league...but not Curry. As it is now, there's no MVP race.

[midnightpulp]

Sorry but this just really isn't true.

PER: Curry - 32.9 (would set the record), Kawhi = 26.0
WS/48: Curry - .340 (would set the record), Kawhi = .287
BPM: Curry - 13.3 (would set the record), Kawhi = 8.1
VORP: Curry - 7.3, Kawhi = 4.5
RPM: Curry - 10.35, Kawhi = 8.93 (that difference is almost as much as the difference between Kawhi and 6th place Chris Paul)

Warriors with Draymond and Klay both playing, no Curry: Net RTG = +2.5
Warriors with all 3 playing: Net RTG = +21.8

I'm just not seeing it man. I love Kawhi and I think he has a good argument over anyone else in the league...but not Curry. As it is now, there's no MVP race.

We can throw PER out since it doesn't consider defense. BPM also doesn't consider defense. I also expect their respective RPMs to be much closer by the end of the season. Kawhi actually does have a higher ORTG/DRTG spread than Curry. No doubt Curry is having a historic, historic season, but we can't just discount Draymond wholesale. They were a 51 win team before he became a starter in 2015 in which they pretty much cruised to the title. Another thing that favors Kawhi is the fact he has to carry a significant two way load every night, guarding positions 1-4 while also being the primary wing scorer. He's the only elite wing/guard in the league who has no real complementary wing/guard scorer to help relieve the scoring burden he's tasked with (Tony is that guy on some nights, but he's nowhere near the threat Klay is).

I've always agreed that the MVP should go to the best player, so I'm for Curry winning it, but if it's still going to a good team's most important player, I simply think Kawhi is more important right now, especially with Manu (who's our second best perimeter player after Kawhi) out.

Aa good as advanced metrics are, they still can't really measure defensive impact all that accurately. Defensive impact is still an "eye test" thing, and Kawhi is quietly as historically great a wing defender as Curry is historically great a shooter. I've maintained peak Kawhi is the best perimeter defender I've ever seen, just like peak Curry right now is the best shooter we've ever seen.

[daledondale]

Homer fans are cute tbh

[SpursFan86]

We can throw PER out since it doesn't consider defense. BPM also doesn't consider defense. I also expect their respective RPMs to be much closer by the end of the season. Kawhi actually does have a higher ORTG/DRTG spread than Curry. No doubt Curry is having a historic, historic season, but we can't just discount Draymond wholesale. They were a 51 win team before he became a starter in 2015 in which they pretty much cruised to the title. Another thing that favors Kawhi is the fact he has to carry a significant two way load every night, guarding positions 1-4 while also being the primary wing scorer. He's the only elite wing/guard in the league who has no real complementary wing/guard scorer to help relieve the scoring burden he's tasked with (Tony is that guy on some nights, but he's nowhere near the threat Klay is).

I've always agreed that the MVP should go to the best player, so I'm for Curry winning it, but if it's still going to a good team's most important player, I simply think Kawhi is more important right now, especially with Manu (who's our second best perimeter player after Kawhi) out.

Aa good as advanced metrics are, they still can't really measure defensive impact all that accurately. Defensive impact is still an "eye test" thing, and Kawhi is quietly as historically great a wing defender as Curry is historically great a shooter. I've maintained peak Kawhi is the best perimeter defender I've ever seen, just like peak Curry right now is the best shooter we've ever seen.

Curry is the best shooter ever bar-none...no one else is even sniffing him in that aspect. I'm fine with someone saying Kawhi is arguably the greatest wing defender we've seen, but no way can you say he's at great as perimeter defense as Curry is at shooting. That essentially means you think Kawhi's perimeter defense blows everyone else's out of the water, which is a pretty big reach.

Kawhi carries a big load, sure, but he also gets to benefit from having the best bench in the league. When Kawhi goes to the bench, he doesn't have to constantly worry about his team falling apart and losing leads. I mean the Spurs have a +10 net rating even without Kawhi...that's just insane. The Spurs have plenty of great lineups that don't include Kawhi; basically every Warriors lineup that doesn't feature Curry is average at best. And if you're going to talk about how Kawhi has no complementary wing/guard scorer, it's only fair to also bring up how he has quite a bit of help defensively. He has another great wing defender in Green who can guard the opposing team's best player for long stretches, and one of the GOAT rim protectors in Duncan.

Saying the Warriors were only a 51-win team in 2014 is a bit disingenuous. They had a really good point differential that year (were 4th in SRS) and that was with Iguodala (who, btw, is probably the guy who gets underrated the most on that team) missing 20 games. They took the Clippers (57 wins, 2nd in SRS) to 7 games in the playoffs without HCA or Bogut. They were much better than their record made them out to be.

[midnightpulp]

Curry is the best shooter ever bar-none...no one else is even sniffing him in that aspect. I'm fine with someone saying Kawhi is arguably the greatest wing defender we've seen, but no way can you say he's at great as perimeter defense as Curry is at shooting. That essentially means you think Kawhi's perimeter defense blows everyone else's out of the water, which is a pretty big reach.

Kawhi carries a big load, sure, but he also gets to benefit from having the best bench in the league. When Kawhi goes to the bench, he doesn't have to constantly worry about his team falling apart and losing leads. I mean the Spurs have a +10 net rating even without Kawhi...that's just insane. The Spurs have plenty of great lineups that don't include Kawhi; basically every Warriors lineup that doesn't feature Curry is average at best. And if you're going to talk about how Kawhi has no complementary wing/guard scorer, it's only fair to also bring up how he has quite a bit of help defensively. He has another great wing defender in Green who can guard the opposing team's best player for long stretches, and one of the GOAT rim protectors in Duncan.

Saying the Warriors were only a 51-win team in 2014 is a bit disingenuous. They had a really good point differential that year (were 4th in SRS) and that was with Iguodala (who, btw, is probably the guy who gets underrated the most on that team) missing 20 games. They took the Clippers (57 wins, 2nd in SRS) to 7 games in the playoffs without HCA or Bogut. They were much better than their record made them out to be.

I would say Kawhi's perimeter defense is on par with how superior it is to his peers (currently) as Curry's shooting is relative to his peers. And when you take into consideration the rule changes and the wing/guard depth of today, perimeter defenders are challenged much more than they were in Pippen's day. And Kawhi is going to break 96 DRTG for the 2nd consecutive year. I don't think a wing in the modern era has ever done that (not even Scottie, who had Jordan, who is a much a better perimeter defender than Danny Green). Now "on par" doesn't mean equal, but Kawhi is a historically great perimeter defender. And when you consider he also has to carry an offensive load (he carries much more of an offensive load than Curry does a defensive load), I just think he's more of a centerpiece to the Spurs than Curry is a centerpiece to the Warriors.

You make a good point about Duncan. He seems to generate low defensive ratings for wings he plays with, so there's definitely a synergy there.

Citing Iggy also further proves my point about how perfectly that roster complements Curry. GS have a load of wings/guards they can use to swarm opposing defenses, while minimizing Curry's defensive load to the lowest threshold possible. Then in addition to that, they have great rim protection and a post defender in Bogut, and also one of the more versatile defenders in the league in Raymond. Curry is basically free to devote every ounce of energy to shooting/scoring. I don't think he lights it up to this extent on the Clippers if you replaced Paul with him.

My argument is definitely qualitative, so I can't prove anything, but the god awful performances against the Suns and Lakers went a long way in convincing me. Kawhi then returns and we're back to holding opponents to 90 points.

[blizz]

Not even close. Sorry. Love the klaw but what spice did last night was crazy and it's not a one time thing. There's new crazy from him every other night. It remains to be seen if he can do this for a career but he is having one of the top two or three seasons in nba history.

[Kawhitstorm]

It's so nice to have a Spur there again. :toast

http://i.imgur.com/3o71Nq3.jpg

WestBrick over Choke-P3:lmao

[Kawhitstorm]

Not even close. Sorry. Love the klaw but what spice did last night was crazy and it's not a one time thing. There's new crazy from him every other night. It remains to be seen if he can do this for a career but he is having one of the top two or three seasons in nba history.

The only chance Kawhi has is if he outplays or at least neutralizes Curry (ala Durant) while the Spurs sweep their remaining 3 games with the Worriers which would give the Spurs a shot at the #1 seed.

[midnightpulp]

RPM was just updated:

Wardell: 10.12

Kawhi: 9.62

Yes, yes, Wardell is having the best statistical season in NBA history, but he carries zero defensive load. None. He's paired in the backcourt with a top 3 SG, who is a nightly threat to score 30, meaning Wardell, as historically great an offense player he is, has a running mate that can take the pressure off him offensively. Kawhi basically IS the perimeter scoring on the Spurs. Raymond, as big of a faggot as he is, is arguably the most unique player in NBA history, and also arguably a top 5 player in the league himself. I don't buy the notion that Curry made Draymond. It's a symbiotic relationship. LMA has indeed been great, but Draymond is simply a more versatile player.

Yes, Kawhi does have some heavyweights he gets to run with on the defensive end in Tim Duncan and Danny Green, but look at how the defense fell apart in Kawhi's absence.

Wardell is obviously the best player in the league and he should be the MVP (since I do believe it should go to the best player), but the race is objectively closer than it seems (Wardell shouldn't win by a mega-landslide), and if the Spurs manage to go 2-2 against the Warriors this season, with Kawhi coming big, I think an argument can be made, not nationally of course, since Media has already handed Curry the award, but it'll make for an interest debate on forums and such.

[DMC]

No way anyone gets the MVP over Curry. The fact that his team is good without him should sway votes but not enough. The fact that they are coming off a championship should mean the team was already at a level prior to this season, but it won't. Warriors didn't bring in a franchise level big like SA did, so the fact they have that gawdy record is going to be enough. People cannot even really judge his shooting, it's unprecedented.

[spursistan]

Guess the debate should be shut close after last night..Curry is in a different stratosphere, at least for this season.

Kawhi, though, is neck-and-neck with LBJ/KD for the race to finish second best..I think Lebron and Durant are actually having a better season-ending stretch.

719633051026731009

[dabom]

2015-16 Real Plus-Minus


RK
NAME
TEAM
GP
MPG
ORPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/ORPM)
DRPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/DRPM)
RPM (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM)
WINS (http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/WINS)


1
Stephen Curry (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3975/stephen-curry), PG
GS
78
34.2
7.64
1.28
8.92
21.10


2
Kawhi Leonard (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6450/kawhi-leonard), SF
SA
71
33.0
4.07
4.51
8.58
17.00


3
LeBron James (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/1966/lebron-james), SF
CLE
75
35.7
5.86
2.55
8.41
18.73


4
Draymond Green (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/6589/draymond-green), PF
GS
80
34.7
3.54
4.73
8.27
20.65


5
Russell Westbrook (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3468/russell-westbrook), PG
OKC
79
34.5
6.93
0.96
7.89
19.14


6
Chris Paul (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/2779/chris-paul), PG
LAC
73
32.8
6.09
1.75
7.84
16.53


7
Kyle Lowry (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3012/kyle-lowry), PG
TOR
76
37.2
5.15
1.44
6.59
16.60


8
Nikola Jokic (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3112335/nikola-jokic), C
DEN
79
21.5
2.31
3.79
6.10
9.54


9
Kevin Durant (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/_/id/3202/kevin-durant), SF
OKC
71
35.9
5.33
0.74
6.07
14.91

[midnightpulp]

Guess the debate should be shut close after last night..Curry is in a different stratosphere, at least for this season.

Kawhi, though, is neck-and-neck with LBJ/KD for the race to finish second best..I think Lebron and Durant are actually having a better season-ending stretch.

719633051026731009

It is, unfortunately. He really needed a statement game against those faggots.

[SpursFan86]

I think it goes Curry-LeBron-Kawhi-KD-CP3...could see an argument for Westbrook over CP3, but I give the edge to CP3 because he's had far less help this year and still led LAC to 53-54 wins.

[spursistan]

my nigga Kawhi still not there yet :cry..Curry is simply fuckin unreal..

KL still developing, but he will have to take us home when the rest are shitting the bed..last night 4th Q or Game 2 shouldn't happen to a player of his caliber..

[Darius Bieber]

Am I the only one who hates the Warrior's playstyle? Watching their players just chuck up threes isn't exciting to me and just ruins basketball.

[SAGirl]

my nigga Kawhi still not there yet :cry..Curry is simply fuckin unreal..

KL still developing, but he will have to take us home when the rest are shitting the bed..last night 4th Q or Game 2 shouldn't happen to a player of his caliber..
Agree. A game in which his costar LMA scored a very efficient 41 points should have been a win in any scenario if Kawhi had been better.

[BillMc]

Agree. A game in which his costar LMA scored a very efficient 41 points should have been a win in any scenario if Kawhi had been better.

This

[Kawhitstorm]

my nigga Kawhi still not there yet :cry..Curry is simply fuckin unreal..

KL still developing, but he will have to take us home when the rest are shitting the bed..last night 4th Q or Game 2 shouldn't happen to a player of his caliber..

Kawhi is going through the same growing pain Curry went through last postseason but he still plays elite defense.

[Killakobe81]

One thing that should help Kawhi's case (it won't because the media is retarded) is that he has no perimeter running mates that are all-star worthy. Having 2 perimeter studs in today's game is as important as having two frontline studs/deep frontline was in the Lakers/Spurs era. Durant has Westbrook. Curry has Klay. Lebron has Kyrie. Kawhi has Danny Green (great defender, yes, but his offensive game is such shit, he can't take the pressure off Kawhi for stretches like Westbrook can with Durant or Klay can with Curry) and/or an inconsistent Tony Parker.

Kawhi carries more load than any other wing/guard in the league.

None of that mattered ... Steph was and is the MVP.
KL being a top 5 player, backtoback DPOTY and first team all NBA is enough recognition of his great play.
Steph is the MVP of this year and it's not even close.
Only Jordan and Lebron have posted a higher season in PER and you may not like that advanced metric but it' just as valid as any other they all have flaws.

[baseline bum]

Am I the only one who hates the Warrior's playstyle? Watching their players just chuck up threes isn't exciting to me and just ruins basketball.

No, you're probably not the only butthurt faggot.

[Killakobe81]

No, you're probably not the only butthurt faggot.

:lmao

[YGWHI]

Agree. A game in which his costar LMA scored a very efficient 41 points should have been a win in any scenario if Kawhi had been better.


This

Am I the only worried about this?

When LMA scored 41 points, Kawhi scored 14, and the Spurs lost.

When Durant scored 41 points, Westbrook 14, and the Thunder won.

Most people think this series is about Kawhi/LMA vs Durant/Westbrook, but it's about their role players outplaying ours.

[SAGirl]

Am I the only worried about this?

When LMA scored 41 points, Kawhi scored 14, and the Spurs lost.

When Durant scored 41 points, Westbrook 14, and the Thunder won.

Most people think this series is about Kawhi/LMA vs Durant/Westbrook, but it's about their role players outplaying ours.
We are built on defense and Timmy not being able to stay on the court is a huge blow. We can't stop anybody if we don't rebound.

[YGWHI]

KL still developing, but he will have to take us home when the rest are shitting the bed..last night 4th Q or Game 2 shouldn't happen to a player of his caliber..

4 years ago nobody would have thought that Curry would be THIS player.

He didn't take them home and winning the series against the Spurs by himself.

Kawhi's 24 years old. Curry, 28.

I'm not saying that Kawhi in 4 years will be Curry, or Duncan, or Jordan. No. I'm just saying it's likely that prime-Kawhi will be a better version of the player we're watching now.

[BillMc]

I'm just saying it's likely that prime-Kawhi will be a better version of the player we're watching now.

With his work ethic that will be a hell of a player. (He's already a hell of a player!) Unless the team tanks, (unlikely as long as Pop's here) he's going to win an MVP before he's done. Curry fatigue, like LeBron and Jordan fatigue before them, means the media will look for someone else and Kawhi has a great chance to be that man.

That said, for THIS series we'll need more Game 1 and Game 3 Kawhi, than Games 2 and 4. Of course a Game 1 LaMarcus and SOMEONE from the bench to step up would be great too.

Man I'm digressing. :lol

[YGWHI]

Man I'm digressing. :lol
No, at least not on this "someone" from the bench to step up". We really need those guys. I miss those times when our bench was our biggest advantage in playoffs.

[BillMc]

No, at least not on this "someone" from the bench to step up". We really need those guys. I miss those times when our bench was our biggest advantage in playoffs.

The loss of Cory, Baynes and Marco coupled with not so great years from Boris and Patty has hurt us. I liked Manu's play this year for the most part but he's on such limited minutes. West has moments when I absolutely want him back and other moments when he seems too small and old. Kyle has days he looks like he's going to take the leap and others that he's still learning. Sometimes I think Simmons has potential, then I think he's already 26 and many never be more than a late bench guy. Bonner looks done and Kevin Martin's never really caught on here. Truthfully, I thought this would be a transition year, I was amazed how well we've played. We're going to the WCF, book it, and who knows, maybe beyond. A lot of doom sayers on this site like to write us off against the Dubs, and they should be favored, perhaps heavily, if we get there. But I look at it as an opportunity. What a nice send off for Timmy and Manu to defeat the team with the best record of all time and then trounce LeBron again. Probably won't happen, but it definitely COULD happen, which is why I look on things positively and anything beyond OKC as gravy.

Damn digressing again. Can't stop! :bang

I need medication. :lol

[YGWHI]

Damn digressing again. Can't stop! :bang

I need medication. :lol

"We're going to the WCF, book it, and who knows, maybe beyond...What a nice send off for Timmy and Manu to defeat the team with the best record of all time and then trounce LeBron again."

:tu

If you keep saying these things, you can digress all day long.

[BillMc]

"We're going to the WCF, book it, and who knows, maybe beyond...What a nice send off for Timmy and Manu to defeat the team with the best record of all time and then trounce LeBron again."

:tu

If you keep saying these things, you can digress all day long.
:bobo Cheers Bro! Looking forward to your man Kawhi putting us on his back tonight! (And for Patty to come through like its 2014 Finals).

[SAGirl]

The loss of Cory, Baynes and Marco coupled with not so great years from Boris and Patty has hurt us. I liked Manu's play this year for the most part but he's on such limited minutes. West has moments when I absolutely want him back and other moments when he seems too small and old. Kyle has days he looks like he's going to take the leap and others that he's still learning. Sometimes I think Simmons has potential, then I think he's already 26 and many never be more than a late bench guy. Bonner looks done and Kevin Martin's never really caught on here. Truthfully, I thought this would be a transition year, I was amazed how well we've played. We're going to the WCF, book it, and who knows, maybe beyond. A lot of doom sayers on this site like to write us off against the Dubs, and they should be favored, perhaps favorably, if we get there. But I look at it as an opportunity. What a nice send off for Timmy and Manu to defeat the team with the best record of all time and then trounce LeBron again. Probably won't happen, but it definitely COULD happen, which is why I look on things positively and anything beyond OKC as gravy.

Damn digressing again. Can't stop! :bang

I need medication. :lol
To me the biggest loss was a big that rolled and played close to the basket for Manu to PnR partner with. That opened the paint for shooters. Bc we lack that, the thing is to feature D west finding cutters.

However, having a roll man allowed Boris to camp at the 3 and do his thing, drive, dish to the big, etc. With Dwest who only likes to Pop in pnr, Manu has a burden to drive himself, Diaw has had to act as the roller, and play a lot closer to the basket posting up bc D west is not as good close to the basket as he is. Boris and D west are not a good pairing and haven't been since the beginning. I am with Kstorm that the fit with him is not it he best. We have missed Tiago and Baynes the most.

From there, the lack of Cojo has prompted Pop to develop Mills as a more traditional PG which is not his game either.

Anderson is not ideal with this group either bc he's a passer, not a natural scorer and that group already has too much passing and not enough of wAnting to put the ball in the basket, except for Mills, which is not a good idea bc he can get in chucker mode and tAke 3/4 of the bench shots if you let him. They have issues. Marco definitely fit them better.

I actually think the bench fit nd chemistry is better between Boban/Anderson/Simmons. You can put Mills and Diaw there and you have yourself a bench, (bring Bertans over if space is cramped) but this current one is odd. It's not better than what it was and it also doesn't use the talents of the players that inhabit it to their full potential bc there are issues of fit. That puts a larger burden on Manu imo (again, specially not having a decent P&ROLL partner.)

[313]

Am I the only worried about this?

When LMA scored 41 points, Kawhi scored 14, and the Spurs lost.

When Durant scored 41 points, Westbrook 14, and the Thunder won.

Most people think this series is about Kawhi/LMA vs Durant/Westbrook, but it's about their role players outplaying ours.
Maybe if Kawhi had 16 assists we would've won

[YGWHI]

Maybe if Kawhi had 16 assists we would've won
That's my point.

If Westbrook has 16 assists in a game that means their players are making their shots. That's why I said that Ibaka, Waiters, Adams, Kanter are outplaying our role players.

[313]

That's my point.

If Westbrook has 16 assists in a game that means their players are making their shots. That's why I said that Ibaka, Waiters, Adams, Kanter are outplaying our role players.im really not trying to knock Kawhi, and I agree that our role players need to step up, but Kawhi not having 16 assist or even 8 or 9 assists isn't because our role players are missing shots. Westbrook is a great playmaker and gets his guys plenty of easy shots. Again, not a knock on Kawhi, just saying comparing Westbrooks 14 points to Kawhi's 14 points is like comparing apples and oranges. Now if KD scored 14 points and the thunder still won that'd be more comparable.