Zebras

[Horse]

If they call the our games the way they have lately we are fucked. And I'm not saying that's any excuse for the pathetic effort today.

[KenziE]

None of these fuckin refs respect the spurs sad but true can't buy a fuckin call from these motherfuckers tbh so frustrating

[Ruler]

I'm having 2012 WCF flashbacks...

[FromWayDowntown]

A big part of the problem with regular season officiating is that the nature of the staff requires that younger/inexperienced officials call lots of games. Some of those officials have lots of promise and are able to make good judgments about calls, but a lot of them guess -- whistling things that they expect will happen or that they thought happened. Another part of the problem is that there are a bunch of more experienced officials who just aren't very good -- officials who've been around for a number of years, but haven't ever been good enough to consistently earn playoff assignments (and certainly not games in later rounds of the playoffs).

When you couple those bad officials with others who are -- basically -- low end playoff officials who are crew chiefs only because they've been around for a while and have some playoff experience, you tend to get poorly officiated games.

[hater]

I have noticed some horrible officiating last spurs games. Hooefully its allstart break rust onthese fucks

[MultiTroll]

League influence last two games.

Clippers: Remember the absolute chit storm Donny Sterling said he would rain down? Private eyes digging up all the dirt they could find on fellow owners, Stern Jr himself? Balmer to the rescue with 2 billion.
Payback.

Lakers: gayla celebration of Kirbys acting career coming to a close: Need anything else be said?

[Seventyniner]

A big part of the problem with regular season officiating is that the nature of the staff requires that younger/inexperienced officials call lots of games. Some of those officials have lots of promise and are able to make good judgments about calls, but a lot of them guess -- whistling things that they expect will happen or that they thought happened. Another part of the problem is that there are a bunch of more experienced officials who just aren't very good -- officials who've been around for a number of years, but haven't ever been good enough to consistently earn playoff assignments (and certainly not games in later rounds of the playoffs).

When you couple those bad officials with others who are -- basically -- low end playoff officials who are crew chiefs only because they've been around for a while and have some playoff experience, you tend to get poorly officiated games.

Good breakdown. Still, for a league with as much money and reputation on the line as the NBA, couldn't they afford to pay officials enough to attract the best of the best? I find it hard to believe that there just aren't enough people capable of calling an NBA game correctly to staff at least most of the games.

[FromWayDowntown]

Good breakdown. Still, for a league with as much money and reputation on the line as the NBA, couldn't they afford to pay officials enough to attract the best of the best? I find it hard to believe that there just aren't enough people capable of calling an NBA game correctly to staff at least most of the games.

At this point, the analytical evaluation of officials is doing a fairly good job of ferreting out the bad officials and allowing the league to make sure that those officials aren't around very long. As that process is moving forward, the league has also lost a lot of good or experienced officials recently to injuries or early retirements, which has created a need for more and more younger/inexperienced officials to work a lot of games. The hope is that more games will improve the quality of the officiating, though I think there are just some people who are made to be good at officiating and some who are always just going to be sort of mediocre compared to that group.

I'd also imagine it's a hard job to fill -- you have to be willing to travel an incredible amount, you have to be willing to take all of the criticism and scrutiny that comes down on officials (from lots of directions), and you have to do that for a good (but not great) salary ($150,000/yr at the entry level). More money might make the job more enticing, but then you'd have to wonder where the pool of candidates to quickly improve officiating would come from.

[MultiTroll]

^^ no shortage of applicants. I know a wannabe and the line forms to the left.

Whether or not the NBAs system results in true potential and talent making it to the big time, probably similar to the entertainment industry.

[Horse]

I saw several missed and 1's for west and a few other while the other end they treated phoenix like the 90's bulls.

[hater]

At this point, the analytical evaluation of officials is doing a fairly good job of ferreting out the bad officials and allowing the league to make sure that those officials aren't around very long. As that process is moving forward, the league has also lost a lot of good or experienced officials recently to injuries or early retirements, which has created a need for more and more younger/inexperienced officials to work a lot of games. The hope is that more games will improve the quality of the officiating, though I think there are just some people who are made to be good at officiating and some who are always just going to be sort of mediocre compared to that group.

I'd also imagine it's a hard job to fill -- you have to be willing to travel an incredible amount, you have to be willing to take all of the criticism and scrutiny that comes down on officials (from lots of directions), and you have to do that for a good (but not great) salary ($150,000/yr at the entry level). More money might make the job more enticing, but then you'd have to wonder where the pool of candidates to quickly improve officiating would come from.

150k a year puts them squarely at the 97 percentile of US income. Not great?????

[NameLess Scrub]

150k a year puts them squarely at the 97 percentile of US income. Not great?????

[SpursforSix]

At this point, the analytical evaluation of officials is doing a fairly good job of ferreting out the bad officials and allowing the league to make sure that those officials aren't around very long. As that process is moving forward, the league has also lost a lot of good or experienced officials recently to injuries or early retirements, which has created a need for more and more younger/inexperienced officials to work a lot of games. The hope is that more games will improve the quality of the officiating, though I think there are just some people who are made to be good at officiating and some who are always just going to be sort of mediocre compared to that group.

I'd also imagine it's a hard job to fill -- you have to be willing to travel an incredible amount, you have to be willing to take all of the criticism and scrutiny that comes down on officials (from lots of directions), and you have to do that for a good (but not great) salary ($150,000/yr at the entry level). More money might make the job more enticing, but then you'd have to wonder where the pool of candidates to quickly improve officiating would come from.

I can't imagine it being THAT hard to fill. Most lower level basketball refs would have the NBA as their ultimate goal. I can't believe that with good training, there wouldn't be enough qualified candidates willing to put in the time and travel for $150K for less than a full year. And with the possibility of moving up the chain and making much more than the entry level salary.

[FromWayDowntown]

150k a year puts them squarely at the 97 percentile of US income. Not great?????

Poor choice of words on my part. I'd think, though, that given the other constraints of the job, the salary (while exceptionally high for most people) might not completely offset the other requirements of the job for some people. Even at $150K, a first year official is among the lowest paid people involved in any NBA game.

[FromWayDowntown]

I can't imagine it being THAT hard to fill. Most lower level basketball refs would have the NBA as their ultimate goal. I can't believe that with good training, there wouldn't be enough qualified candidates willing to put in the time and travel for $150K for less than a full year. And with the possibility of moving up the chain and making much more than the entry level salary.

I'm sure that there would be applicants. The question is whether those applicants would actually be better than the guys who hold those positions right now. It's possible that they're better (though I suspect the NBA actively scouts and then recruits lower level referees already), but it's likely that they're not.

Finding an elite-level official is a pretty hard thing to do. Between 2002 and 2009, I count 29 new officials who entered the league (of those, 25 are still working in the NBA); of those 29 only 15 have been good enough to get playoff assignments, and of those 15 only 5 have managed to get assignments in the conference finals or later (Zach Zarba and Ed Malloy have both called Finals games; Pat Fraher, John Goble, and Sean Wright have combined to call 5 conference finals games).

So, in that 8 year stretch, the league basically turned over about 44% of its officiating staff and found 2 officials that it deems elite and 3 more that it thinks are close to that level -- they had about a 17% (5/29) hit rate in finding officials who weren't just (basically) replacement level guys.

Not trying to defend bad officiating - to be clear. I'm just saying that finding people who can call these games exceptionally well has proven to be a difficult task.

[SpursforSix]

I'm sure that there would be applicants. The question is whether those applicants would actually be better than the guys who hold those positions right now. It's possible that they're better (though I suspect the NBA actively scouts and then recruits lower level referees already), but it's likely that they're not.

Finding an elite-level official is a pretty hard thing to do. Between 2002 and 2009, I count 29 new officials who entered the league (of those, 25 are still working in the NBA); of those 29 only 15 have been good enough to get playoff assignments, and of those 15 only 5 have managed to get assignments in the conference finals or later (Zach Zarba and Ed Malloy have both called Finals games; Pat Fraher, John Goble, and Sean Wright have combined to call 5 conference finals games).

So, in that 8 year stretch, the league basically turned over about 44% of its officiating staff and found 2 officials that it deems elite and 3 more that it thinks are close to that level -- they had about a 17% (5/29) hit rate in finding officials who weren't just (basically) replacement level guys.

Not trying to defend bad officiating - to be clear. I'm just saying that finding people who can call these games exceptionally well has proven to be a difficult task.

Interesting info. What do you think the reason is? It's easy for me to sit here and say that it can't be that hard. But some of the calls seem so obvious. Is it the training? Or lack of enforcement?

[FromWayDowntown]

Interesting info. What do you think the reason is? It's easy for me to sit here and say that it can't be that hard. But some of the calls seem so obvious. Is it the training? Or lack of enforcement?

The calls seem obvious when you can see them from the television angle and not at floor level (and without the pressures that come with being in the midst of the action in an NBA game). I think the truth is likely that calling basketball games correctly is a very difficult thing to do. It's not like there's some broad consensus that collegiate officials - even the best of the best at that level - are really good at calling games.

I absolutely don't think lack of enforcement is the problem. I heard a talk last year by the guy who does analytics for the referees' department of the NBA and he showed us some of the materials that they compile about each official during each game and the ways they use that data to try to do any number of things, including the improvement of officials and the objective evaluation of their work. Frankly, I think the league's leash with a lot of the younger officials is going to get shorter and shorter as the data begins to point to people who are doing marginal jobs; they'll now have the data to say that so-and-so just isn't very good (instead of doing it as a more instinctive matter). It's been interesting to me that as the analytics phenomenon has crept into the evaluation of officials, some of the referees that you could always assume would be working late playoff rounds are being kept out of those assignments. Before the analytics, Bill Kennedy was a Finals official, but in 2014 and 2015 he wasn't, and last year, he only worked 1 game after the first round of the playoffs; this season, he isn't even a full-time crew chief. I think it's likely that there was an assumption, pre-analytics, that Kennedy was really good and I think the analytics have shown that while he's clearly above-average, he's not actually elite in terms of his accuracy. Kennedy may win back his spot in the Finals, but it's likely to be there for him only if the data supports him being one of the 12 best.

[TrainOfThought5]

Interesting info. What do you think the reason is? It's easy for me to sit here and say that it can't be that hard. But some of the calls seem so obvious. Is it the training? Or lack of enforcement?

Its totally different in person than on TV. You should get courtside seats sometime

[SpursforSix]

Its totally different in person than on TV. You should get courtside seats sometime

yeah, but I can't pause the game to poop.

[TrainOfThought5]

yeah, but I can't pause the game to poop.

Also true... but it gave me a much greater appreciation for what the officials have to do. And the physical stamina they have to have while they do it.

Sidenote: NBA refs >>>> NFL Refs

[SpursforSix]

Also true... but it gave me a much greater appreciation for what the officials have to do. And the physical stamina they have to have while they do it.

Sidenote: NBA refs >>>> NFL Refs

It's been a while since I sat courtside and I really didn't think much about the refs. But I realize that it takes a lot of stamina to run up and down the court and try to make sure they're in the right spot. And that it's harder for them trying to make a call at floor level trying to see through 10 big bodies than for me with a 3 quarter angle. That being said, I've seen plenty of bad calls that seemed pretty obvious. But yeah...I'm not seeing exactly what they are.

But if in fact, incorrect calls are being made at higher rates, the NBA needs to take a hard look at it. Maybe give me a button and mic so I can make calls while watching on TV.

[hater]

Poor choice of words on my part. I'd think, though, that given the other constraints of the job, the salary (while exceptionally high for most people) might not completely offset the other requirements of the job for some people. Even at $150K, a first year official is among the lowest paid people involved in any NBA game.

Seriously? Ball boy anyone. Hundreds of NBA jobs pay lower than officials.

thats a pretty good salary for officials IMO. That would make a 4+ year official making 200k + benefits.

[NameLess Scrub]

I'm curious..

Have they considered increasing the amount of officials in the POs? Is it considered too expensive?

What about games with inconsistent foul calls? Wouldn't the inaccuracy be consistent on each side of the court?

What about teams/players that have a history of playing dirty or faking contact? How they get away with it after the games are reviewed?

[tonight...you]

It makes ZERO sense for this league, bursting with profits, simply cannot employ full-time, dedicated year-long referees on good salaries and maintain a watchdog group to make sure the game is not being compromised from that end.

ZERO sense. A couple million taken away from a multi-billion dollar industry to improve the product and it's integrity is nothing, but a wise and sound investment.

[SpursforSix]

It makes ZERO sense for this league, bursting with profits, simply cannot employ full-time, dedicated year-long referees on good salaries and maintain a watchdog group to make sure the game is not being compromised from that end.

ZERO sense. A couple million taken away from a multi-billion dollar industry to improve the product and it's integrity is nothing, but a wise and sound investment.

I'd gladly donate a couple million of Parker's salary for good officiating.

JK, goooooo Tony!!!!

[pad300]

I'd gladly donate a couple million of Parker's salary for good officiating.

JK, goooooo Tony!!!!

Tony might go for it too! He's made a career of going into the paint where the tall trees are, and he's never gotten a fair share of foul calls...

[tonight...you]

I'd gladly donate a couple million of Parker's salary for good officiating.

JK, goooooo Tony!!!!
Lol. Me too.

[diego]

I'm sure that there would be applicants. The question is whether those applicants would actually be better than the guys who hold those positions right now. It's possible that they're better (though I suspect the NBA actively scouts and then recruits lower level referees already)

do you know if most nba refs come from a certain place or where they have hired referees from?

i wonder if they have looked at foreign talent the way teams have, or if they´re all from us college ranks.

just yesterday i got together with some old friends, boston, dubs, pacers and spurs fans, and everyone was griping about the poor officiating in general. its still better than a lot of other leagues but there are still a lot of games tainted by bad calls. it seems like the easiest, most reasonable solution is to add a fourth ref so they dont have to run as much and have a more balanced view of the court. they should try in the dleague, or in preseason, maybe that 17% goes up.

[SpursforSix]

do you know if most nba refs come from a certain place or where they have hired referees from?

i wonder if they have looked at foreign talent the way teams have, or if they´re all from us college ranks.

just yesterday i got together with some old friends, boston, dubs, pacers and spurs fans, and everyone was griping about the poor officiating in general. its still better than a lot of other leagues but there are still a lot of games tainted by bad calls. it seems like the easiest, most reasonable solution is to add a fourth ref so they dont have to run as much and have a more balanced view of the court. they should try in the dleague, or in preseason, maybe that 17% goes up.

That makes sense. But I wonder if that would result in a lot of conflicting calls.

Maybe if the had a ref attached to a zip line over the court and move him back and forth like one of those cameras.

[r0drig0lac]

Hawks with ball movement Spurs 2013/14 abused GSW in the third period

[SpursforSix]

Hawks with ball movement Spurs 2013/14 abused GSW in the third period

How are the refs?

[FromWayDowntown]

do you know if most nba refs come from a certain place or where they have hired referees from?

i wonder if they have looked at foreign talent the way teams have, or if they´re all from us college ranks.

just yesterday i got together with some old friends, boston, dubs, pacers and spurs fans, and everyone was griping about the poor officiating in general. its still better than a lot of other leagues but there are still a lot of games tainted by bad calls. it seems like the easiest, most reasonable solution is to add a fourth ref so they dont have to run as much and have a more balanced view of the court. they should try in the dleague, or in preseason, maybe that 17% goes up.

At this point, most of the new officials into the NBA come through the D-League.

In the past there was a more direct pipeline from collegiate officials to the NBA.

And to complete my thoughts on all of this, it's true that the quality of officiating during regular season games can be pretty inconsistent, depending upon the crew. But, as has always been true, good teams tend to find ways to win games without regard to the officiating and the Spurs did that on both Friday and Sunday to get games that they likely would have lost just last season.

[SpursforSix]

At this point, most of the new officials into the NBA come through the D-League.

In the past there was a more direct pipeline from collegiate officials to the NBA.

And to complete my thoughts on all of this, it's true that the quality of officiating during regular season games can be pretty inconsistent, depending upon the crew. But, as has always been true, good teams tend to find ways to win games without regard to the officiating and the Spurs did that on both Friday and Sunday to get games that they likely would have lost just last season.

Yes...this is of course true. A good team shouldn't put themselves in a position where the calls change their whole season. Although, I'm sure at some point it time, it's maybe screwed up a team's seeding and possibly.

As long as they get it right in the playoffs. Just thinking about .4 and also the foul on Barry.

[Horse]

F the ref!!!

[spurtech09]

What do you expect....Its all about the Warriors.....League doing all they can to keep Golden State on top....