500,000

[Nbadan]

Numbers
By Scott Galindez
Saturday 24 September 2005 11:08 PM

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/dc_from_monument.jpg


It is safe to say that there were hundreds of thousands of people marching against the war in Iraq today. Police Chief Charles Ramsey's only statement was that the organizers achieved their goal of 100,000. The DC police refused to make any other estimate. C-SPAN estimated 500,000, a number that I believe was possible from my observations. I was on the corner of Pennsylvania and 15th on the steps of Riggs bank when the march began. People were still arriving from all directions. The massive amount of people moving in all directions prevented a front of the march from forming. People just started marching on their own with no marshals anywhere near the front of the march. Thousands of people passed me before any organized contingent. The first major contingent that passed me were thousands of students with signs that said, "college not enlistment." Thousands of people later I finally saw what was intended to be the lead banner. I saw Congresswomen Lynn Woosley, and Barbara Lee, the Reverend Al Sharpton and other dignitaries carrying that banner.

Thousands of people behind that came the Iraq Veterans Against the War. Joan Baez was marching with them right next to Marine Jeff Key and dozens of other veterans of the Iraq war. Behind them was Gold Star Families for Peace. About half a block later came Veterans for Peace, with Military Families Speak Out a short distance behind them. At the time I assumed that they were in the middle of the march. I later found out that while they were not near the front they were much further from the rear.

I moved down to Pennsylvania and 13th to catch the front again and noticed for hours that there were still people heading up 15th Street. I headed to the concert at 4:30 pm, 4 hours after the march began and people were still marching past the White House, only 4 blocks from the march's starting point.

To summarize, it took over 4 hours for people clear out of the ellipse area. I have been to several large marches in Washington, DC, since 1989 and this was by far the largest.

Many, Many more photo's of the Cindy Sheehan sponsored anti-war rally held in Washington DC yesterday. Here (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/protestphotos.html)

[Nbadan]

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/09/25/ba_war_protest_calif_can104.jpg

Jeb Eddy joins thousands of demonstrators to protest the war in Iraq on Saturday. Associated Press photo by Noah Berger

more photos at: San Francisco Gate (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?m=/c/pictures/2005/09/25/ba_war_protest_calif_can104.jpg&f=/chronicle/archive/2005/09/24/BAprotest24.DTL)

[Nbadan]

Meanwhile, on the other side of town..

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/iraq-rally.jpg

[whottt]

Moveon (http://www.jokes.thefunnybone.com/waves/6farts.wav)

[Dos]

... lol


Anti-War Demonstrators March on Washington
By JENNIFER C. KERR
The Associated Press
Sunday, September 25, 2005; 1:17 AM


WASHINGTON -- Crowds opposed to the war in Iraq surged past the White House on Saturday, shouting "Peace now" in the largest anti-war protest in the nation's capital since the U.S. invasion.

The rally stretched through the day and into the night, a marathon of music, speechmaking and dissent on the National Mall. Police Chief Charles H. Ramsey, noting that organizers had hoped to draw 100,000 people, said, "I think they probably hit that."

Speakers from the stage attacked President Bush's policies head on, but he was not at the White House to hear it. He spent the day in Colorado and Texas, monitoring hurricane recovery.

[Pistons < Spurs]

500,000 my ass.......

[xrayzebra]

Numbers
By Scott Galindez
Saturday 24 September 2005 11:08 PM

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/dc_from_monument.jpg



Many, Many more photo's of the Cindy Sheehan sponsored anti-war rally held in Washington DC yesterday. Here (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/protestphotos.html)

Don't you mean anti-American war rally?

[CharlieMac]

I wonder how many causes were squeezed into this protest.

[jochhejaam]

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2005/09/25/ba_war_protest_calif_can104.jpg

Jeb Eddy joins thousands of demonstrators to protest the war in Iraq on Saturday. Associated Press photo by Noah Berger

more photos at: San Francisco Gate (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?m=/c/pictures/2005/09/25/ba_war_protest_calif_can104.jpg&f=/chronicle/archive/2005/09/24/BAprotest24.DTL)


That's James Garner! What the ....!!!



:lol









http://www.jessicabrooks.com/president/no%20liberals.gif

[xrayzebra]

I wonder how many causes were squeezed into this protest.


Now you know where all the communist went after the fall of communist Russia. Green Peace, old Viet Nam protestors who want the past back, people for progress (whoever they are). The homeless looking for something, Someone looking to get laid, make love not war. I loved one picture of one of Cindy's handlers, had her Bra on the outside of her shirt...LOL. You name them, they were there. I am sure Phil Baby was there. But funny, I didn't see any of the Dimm-o-crap Pols names mentioned......very strange, do they know something our tin-hat friend doesn't know?

[Vashner]

Nice rally... looks like they had fun...
http://home.satx.rr.com/krograth/images/sheehan01.jpg

http://home.satx.rr.com/krograth/images/insurgen01.jpg

[Johnny Tightlips]

Who says I been photoshoppin' badly?

[jochhejaam]

An infamous quote from da rev sharpton at the event "George Bush, you need to know that broken levees are weapons of mass destruction".

and taken from the Toledo Blade newspaper account;
"The emotional highlight of the event on the Ellipse came with the arrival of Cindy Sheehan"...

Also "almost no members of congress attended the event".

nuff said

[Vashner]

Whoever built that chump thing.. it was only like 1 foot of crete... DAMIIT IT's ALL about the C R E T E!!! make it 30 foot thick with rebar and 30 foot tall...

[smeagol]

If you oppose the war, you are Anti-American. Everybody knows that!

[jochhejaam]

If you oppose the war, you are Anti-American. Everybody knows that!

When war protests become circuses that amount to nothing more than political grandstanding with the exploitation of our soldiers deaths for political expediency's sake, it's time to protest the protests.

No one (I hope) is for our soldiers losing their lives but most are for the fight against terrorism. The majority protesting now are terrorist-sympathizing, bush-hating pacifists who don't understand the mentality of the terrorists (kill Americans, Israeli's, freedom seeking Islamists, etc) or they do understand and don't care. Both ways of thinking exude pure unadulterated ignorance.

Terrorism will not wane by the U.S. abandoning the fight against it or by abandoning the Iraqi's in their quest for freedom from tyrannical governing bodies and the mindless extremist insurgents.

For those that haven't noticed it's evolved into a theatre of battle against the terrorists, why are they protesting that?



There is no meeting of minds, no point of understanding with such terror. Just a choice: Defeat it or be defeated by it. And defeat it we must.
Tony Blair

[Dos]

but look at all these countries that haven't invaded iraq!

damn al qeda dirty-bombed the shit out of them

yeah terrorist have never attacked other countries pre-911 .. lmfao..

Terrorist Attacks
(within the United States or against Americans abroad)

1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.

1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.

1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.

1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.

1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.

1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.

2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)

[Dos]

international incidents of terrorism pre 911


"Bloody Friday," July 21, 1972: An Irish Republican Army (IRA) bomb attacks killed eleven people and injure 130 in Belfast, Northern Ireland. Ten days later, three IRA car bomb attacks in the village of Claudy left six dead.

Munich Olympic Massacre, September 5, 1972: Eight Palestinian "Black September" terrorists seized eleven Israeli athletes in the Olympic Village in Munich, West Germany. In a bungled rescue attempt by West German authorities, nine of the hostages and five terrorists were killed.

Attack and Hijacking at the Rome Airport, December 17, 1973: Five terrorists pulled weapons from their luggage in the terminal lounge at the Rome airport, killing two persons. They then attacked a Pan American 707 bound for Beirut and Tehran, destroying it with incendiary grenades and killing 29 persons, including 4 senior Moroccan officials and 14 American employees of ARAMCO. They then herded 5 Italian hostages into a Lufthansa airliner and killed an Italian customs agent as he tried to escape, after which they forced the pilot to fly to Beirut. After Lebanese authorities refused to let the plane land, it landed in Athens, where the terrorists demanded the release of 2 Arab terrorists. In order to make Greek authorities comply with their demands, the terrorists killed a hostage and threw his body onto the tarmac. The plane then flew to Damascus, where it stopped for two hours to obtain fuel and food. It then flew to Kuwait, where the terrorists released their hostages in return for passage to an unknown destination. The Palestine Liberation Organization disavowed the attack, and no group claimed responsibility for it.

Entebbe Hostage Crisis, June 27, 1976: Members of the Baader-Meinhof Group and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) seized an Air France airliner and its 258 passengers. They forced the plane to land in Uganda. On July 3 Israeli commandos successfully rescued the passengers.

but you can read about more here..

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

just give me a f***ing clue history did not start when W took office....

[hussker]

Half a million people? There must be quite a few in the water there? GLUB GLUB...Gettin in touch with the refusees of NOLA, or should I say the Modern Day Atlantis.

Jacques Chirac is probably thrilled at the historic sale! What a $15M investment the Frogs made 200 yrs ago...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:lol When the emotional leader of your protest nest is escaped mental patient Cindy Sheehan, you've got problems.

[boutons]

washingtonpost.com

Praise, Anger at Pro-War Rally in D.C.

By ELISABETH GOODRIDGE

The Associated Press
Sunday, September 25, 2005; 2:32 PM

WASHINGTON -- Support for U.S. troops fighting abroad mixed with anger toward anti-war demonstrators at home as hundreds of people, far fewer than organizers had expected, rallied Sunday on the National Mall just a day after a massive protest against the war in Iraq.

"No matter what your ideals are, our sons and daughters are fighting for our freedom," said Marilyn Faatz, who drove from New Jersey to attend the rally.

(BS: the war is being fought exclusively for the Repubs 2004 re-election campagn and for inflating oil prices to flush $Bs of windfall profits into oilco coffers. )

"We are making a mockery out of this. And we need to stand united, but we are not."

(the Repbus are making a mockery of running the country.)

About 400 people gathered near a stage on an eastern segment of the mall, a large photo of an American flag serving as a backdrop. Amid banners and signs proclaiming support for U.S. troops, several speakers hailed the effort to bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan and denounced those who protest it.

Many demonstrators focused their ire at Cindy Sheehan, the California woman whose protest near President Bush's Texas home last summer galvanized the anti-war movement. Sheehan was among the speakers at Saturday's rally near the Washington Monument on the western part of the mall, an event that attracted an estimated 100,000 people.

"The group who spoke here the other day did not represent the American ideals of freedom, liberty and spreading that around the world," Sen. Jeff Sessions, an Alabama Republican, told the crowd. "I frankly don't know what they represent, other than blaming America first."

(When the Repubs start a bogus war based on lies, who the fuck else ya gonna blame? And, Repubs DO-NOT-EQUAL America)

One sign on the mall read "Cindy Sheehan doesn't speak for me" and another "Arrest the traitors"; it listed Sheehan's name first among several people who have spoken against the war.

Melody Vigna, 44, of Linden, Calif., said she wants nothing to do with Sheehan and others at nearby Camp Casey, an anti-war site set up to honor her son, Casey, who was killed in Iraq.

"Our troops are over there fighting for our rights, and if she was in one of those countries she would not be able to do that," Vigna said.

(BS: the troops are doing what they are told. The war is strcitly for the Repubs, not for America.)

( "she would not be able to do that", ... if the Repubs had their way, they would remove the freedom and right of expression of dissent and anti-war deomonstrations.)

The husband of Sherri Francescon, 24, of Camp Lejeune, N.C., serves in the Marine Corps in Iraq. One of the many military wives who spoke during the rally, Francescon said that the anti-war demonstration had left her frustrated.

"I know how much my husband does and how hard he works, and I feel like they don't even recognize that and give him the respect he deserves," Francescon said.

( hey dumbass, it's an anti-(Repub)war demonstration, NOT an anti-military demonstration. The military is just a neutral tool of the Repub policy, being abused, deteriorated, and sacrificed by the Repubs. I have nothing against the military, and support them 100% by calling this war BULLSHIT and unworthy of our military's involvement)

"I want him to know and I want his unit to know that America is behind them, Cindy doesn't speak for us, and that we believe in what they are doing."

Organizers of Sunday's demonstration acknowledged that their rally would be much smaller than the anti-war protest but had hoped that as many as 20,000 people would turn out.

( shows how connected to reality the pro-war people are.
20,000? how about some "hundreds" )

On Saturday, demonstrators opposed to the war in Iraq surged past the White House in the largest anti-war protest in the nation's capital since the U.S. invasion. The rally stretched through the night, a marathon of music, speechmaking and dissent on the mall.

[whottt]

If you oppose the war, you are Anti-American. Everybody knows that!


They aren't opposing the war...they are opposing America. When was the last time you saw them protesting the terrorists?


Pacifists my ass. When you call us the bad guys and label them the freedom fighters you are definitely anti-American. We were at war in Iraq to remove Saddam...

[RandomGuy]

Don't you mean anti-American war rally?
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/dissent2.jpg

[RandomGuy]

They aren't opposing the war...they are opposing America. When was the last time you saw them protesting the terrorists?


Pacifists my ass. When you call us the bad guys and label them the freedom fighters you are definitely anti-American. We were at war in Iraq to remove Saddam...
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/mommy_stupid.jpg

[RandomGuy]

No one (I hope) is for our soldiers losing their lives but most are for the fight against terrorism. The majority protesting now are terrorist-sympathizing, bush-hating pacifists who don't understand the mentality of the terrorists (kill Americans, Israeli's, freedom seeking Islamists, etc) or they do understand and don't care. Both ways of thinking exude pure unadulterated ignorance.

Terrorism will not wane by the U.S. abandoning the fight against it or by abandoning the Iraqi's in their quest for freedom from tyrannical governing bodies and the mindless extremist insurgents.

For those that haven't noticed it's evolved into a theatre of battle against the terrorists, why are they protesting that?

The war in Iraq did more to strengthen the ideology of extreme Islam than anything our opponents did.

It devided us from our traditional allies in Europe.

It gave our enemies propaganda pictures galore from Abu Gharaib and elsewhere.

It gave the jihadists a training ground better than the camps in Afghanistan.

European intelligence services are starting to see an influx of muslims coming back from Iraq after training.

Iraq had NOTHING to do with the "war" on terrorism until we made it that way.
We played into their hands with this soup sandwich.

[RandomGuy]

They aren't opposing the war...they are opposing America. When was the last time you saw them protesting the terrorists?


Pacifists my ass. When you call us the bad guys and label them the freedom fighters you are definitely anti-American. We were at war in Iraq to remove Saddam...

China Issues New Rules for News Websites
By VOA News
25 September 2005


China has imposed new rules on Internet news sites in another step to regulate web sites in the country.

The official Xinhua news agency says the new regulations are effective immediately.

It says Internet news sites and content must provide information that is beneficial to the public and state. It added that sites are prohibited from spreading news that goes against China's security and public interest.

Chinese authorities closely monitor Internet content and remove sites they believe are inappropriate. China also requires people to register their websites and blogs.

If it ain't patriotic, it should be banned. I think you and the Chinese government are in agreement there.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=RandomGuy]Iraq had NOTHING to do with the "war" on terrorism until we made it that way. [QUOTE]

And that's officially and without arguement the final and popular consensus? Because RG says so?

The point I made is that it has been for some time and is today the main artery of terrorist insurgency and is the main theatre of battle where terrorism is being fought.
Argue the historical points of the War, which are presently irrelevant to the battles taking place, with the other pacifists who would prefer we be picked apart by the terrorist's a hundred or a thousand at a time on our soil. As for now, we are fighting a sick, demonic, demented enemy who arbitrarily maim and kill regardless age, gender, race, nationality or political affiliation!

[Nbadan]

[QUOTE=RandomGuy]Iraq had NOTHING to do with the "war" on terrorism until we made it that way. [QUOTE]

And that's officially and without arguement the final and popular consensus? Because RG says so?

The point I made is that it has been for some time and is today the main artery of terrorist insurgency and is the main theatre of battle where terrorism is being fought.

Argue the historical points of the War, which are presently irrelevant to the battles taking place, with the other pacifists who would prefer we be picked apart by the terrorist's a hundred or a thousand at a time on our soil. As for now, we are fighting a sick, demonic, demented enemy who arbitrarily maim and kill regardless age, gender, race, nationality or political affiliation!

The historical aspect of the war is very relevant. At what point do we realize that Iraq is a growing terror state because we made it that way? We are inciting more and more of the region's Arab population to raise arms against us than we can arrest, kill and murder because of our cultural indifference and utopian dreams. As in Vietnam, at some point the U.S. is going to have to withdrawal a majority of it's troops. We cannot afford to have over 100,000 there forever. The Iraqi forces we have trained to fill the eventual void left by American troops and the police in many municipalities are infected with Iraqis who are sympathetic to the insurgents.
The insurgents are there for the long-haul, willing to wait out the American presence.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

All I'm saying is that I'm glad we're at war, the deficit is rising like no other, jobs are being exported, the borders are open, and every poor school district is desperately seeking full time teachers.

[whottt]

http://www.oldamericancentury.org/mommy_stupid.jpg


Mommy, why do faggot ass liberals protect the terrorists, who hate us because of our faggot ass liberals, and why don't they understand the root cause of terrorism is all the despotic anti-Democratic leaders in power over there and that installing a liberal government puts pressure on all the terrorist producing states to become more Democratic and therefore less despotic(and less likely to produce future terrorists?


Suzy, you are 4 years old and thus have a greater understanding of the impact of opressive rule on people than the average liberal. Someday, when the liberals achieve your level of political IQ they'll understand as well. You have to realize that the anti-war movement is cowardly, ambivalent to the suffering of the people in the middle east, much like they were to the millions of Vietnames and Cambodians who they were responsible for slaughtering after the US pulled out of vietnam, completely ignorant of the root causes of terrorism and how to combat it, and are actually a bunch of fucking racist bigots who don't believe those savage mideasterners can embrace freedom when given the opportunity, in short Suzy, liberals think you can suck arab dick for another 80 years and it will have a better result than it did the first 80 years...Suzy, I guess the answer is that they are so fucking stupid that their political insight can be summed up on a bumper sticker or stupid picture...I guess you could say they are retards...But just remember Suzy, if they say the same things Usama says...they support Usama and therefore you should vote in a way that makes sure they don't have any say in how the government is run....best to leave them protesting like a bunch of idiots where they can do the least amount of harm and their support of terrorist murderers is only symbolic.

Ok Mommy...but why do they act like this is Vietnam when there is no longer a draft and our service is volunteer?


Suzy...I think on some level they realize this...but basically they are scared because the terrorists are fighting back...Remember...they are stupider than an average 4 year old, and only support wars where the opposition doesn't fight back, they don't understand that the terrorists are going to fight back and think it's a disaster that they have chosen to do so...You see...they'd rather have the terrorists spread out in the world working in the shadows as opposed to being attacked conventionally in Iraq.

Geez Mommy...those motherfuckers are stupid.

[jochhejaam]

At what point do we realize that Iraq is a growing terror state because we made it that way? .

And who's responsible for the terrorist's killing innocent Islamic, American, Israeli, Russian, British, Spanish, etc., women and children?

[whottt]

[i]

If it ain't patriotic, it should be banned.

Well, at least you are honest about it not being patriotic...






I think you and the Chinese government are in agreement there.


Link to where I said it should be banned?

That's what I thought.



Protest away...but freedom of speech is a two way street...if you use your freedom of speech in a way that I feel is detrimental to the country, I certainly have a right to express my opinion the subject as well..or aren't I allowed the same modicum of Free Speech you are? Who is the commie here again? Use your free speech...just don't whine when you get judged for what comes out of your mouth...you guys get 1/10 of the abuse you heap on the elected leader of this country....

I mean if you speak out advocating pedophillia, and I call you a pedophile, that doesn't mean I am a commie.....it's just means I am telling the truth.

You'll understand what I mean when you turn 4(mentally)...

[whottt]

Mommy, why is it that they never protested Saddam, Usama or the Taliban, that it's only America they protest? And why do they think it's horrible that we are attempting to install a Democratic humane and liberal government in the Middle East?

Well....Suzy, it's because they hate America and Democracy, not Saddam, Usama and the Taliban, Communism and Millitant Islam, and they don't give a shit about the people in that region of the world, and in fact are probably being funded by the terrorists themselves and other anti-Democratic organizations, like the anti Vietnam movement was funded by the communists...isn't that obvious?

[hussker]

washingtonpost.com

Praise, Anger at Pro-War Rally in D.C.

By ELISABETH GOODRIDGE

The Associated Press
Sunday, September 25, 2005; 2:32 PM

WASHINGTON -- Support for U.S. troops fighting abroad mixed with anger toward anti-war demonstrators at home as hundreds of people, far fewer than organizers had expected, rallied Sunday on the National Mall just a day after a massive protest against the war in Iraq.

"No matter what your ideals are, our sons and daughters are fighting for our freedom," said Marilyn Faatz, who drove from New Jersey to attend the rally.

(BS: the war is being fought exclusively for the Repubs 2004 re-election campagn and for inflating oil prices to flush $Bs of windfall profits into oilco coffers. )

"We are making a mockery out of this. And we need to stand united, but we are not."

(the Repbus are making a mockery of running the country.)

About 400 people gathered near a stage on an eastern segment of the mall, a large photo of an American flag serving as a backdrop. Amid banners and signs proclaiming support for U.S. troops, several speakers hailed the effort to bring democracy to Iraq and Afghanistan and denounced those who protest it.

Many demonstrators focused their ire at Cindy Sheehan, the California woman whose protest near President Bush's Texas home last summer galvanized the anti-war movement. Sheehan was among the speakers at Saturday's rally near the Washington Monument on the western part of the mall, an event that attracted an estimated 100,000 people.

"The group who spoke here the other day did not represent the American ideals of freedom, liberty and spreading that around the world," Sen. Jeff Sessions, an Alabama Republican, told the crowd. "I frankly don't know what they represent, other than blaming America first."

(When the Repubs start a bogus war based on lies, who the fuck else ya gonna blame? And, Repubs DO-NOT-EQUAL America)

One sign on the mall read "Cindy Sheehan doesn't speak for me" and another "Arrest the traitors"; it listed Sheehan's name first among several people who have spoken against the war.

Melody Vigna, 44, of Linden, Calif., said she wants nothing to do with Sheehan and others at nearby Camp Casey, an anti-war site set up to honor her son, Casey, who was killed in Iraq.

"Our troops are over there fighting for our rights, and if she was in one of those countries she would not be able to do that," Vigna said.

(BS: the troops are doing what they are told. The war is strcitly for the Repubs, not for America.)

( "she would not be able to do that", ... if the Repubs had their way, they would remove the freedom and right of expression of dissent and anti-war deomonstrations.)

The husband of Sherri Francescon, 24, of Camp Lejeune, N.C., serves in the Marine Corps in Iraq. One of the many military wives who spoke during the rally, Francescon said that the anti-war demonstration had left her frustrated.

"I know how much my husband does and how hard he works, and I feel like they don't even recognize that and give him the respect he deserves," Francescon said.

( hey dumbass, it's an anti-(Repub)war demonstration, NOT an anti-military demonstration. The military is just a neutral tool of the Repub policy, being abused, deteriorated, and sacrificed by the Repubs. I have nothing against the military, and support them 100% by calling this war BULLSHIT and unworthy of our military's involvement)

"I want him to know and I want his unit to know that America is behind them, Cindy doesn't speak for us, and that we believe in what they are doing."

Organizers of Sunday's demonstration acknowledged that their rally would be much smaller than the anti-war protest but had hoped that as many as 20,000 people would turn out.

( shows how connected to reality the pro-war people are.
20,000? how about some "hundreds" )

On Saturday, demonstrators opposed to the war in Iraq surged past the White House in the largest anti-war protest in the nation's capital since the U.S. invasion. The rally stretched through the night, a marathon of music, speechmaking and dissent on the mall.

Do you feel better now?

[hussker]

WHOTT....Great post!!!!

[mookie2001]

Mommy, why is it that they never protested Saddam, Usama or the Taliban, that it's only America they protest?
And why do they think it's horrible that we are attempting to install a Democratic humane and liberal government in the Middle East?

Well....Suzy, it's because they hate America and Democracy, not Saddam, Usama and the Taliban, Communism and Millitant Islam, and they don't give a shit about the people in that region of the world, and in fact are probably being funded by the terrorists themselves and other anti-Democratic organizations, like the anti Vietnam movement was funded by the communists...isn't that obvious?using your constitutional rights is anti-american and anti-democratic, remember you constitution loving libs

[whottt]

using your constitutional rights is anti-american and anti-democratic, remember you constitution loving libs

Again we see clear evidence of the stupidity of the libs....Notice how they try to wrap their terrorist sympathizing and anti-Americanism in the constitution?

I mean let's apply this logic to other issues besides the Iraq war...

Constitution gives you the right to bear arms...if you go buy a gun and then shoot at US soldiers with it...that is anti-American, and me saying so is not infringing on your constitional rights.

If you speak on a message board and spew a bunch of racial hatred...like saying...oh for instance..you hate rich white people...me calling you a racist is not an attack on your constitutional rights...as pointed out earlier...it's merely being truthful.

It's not excercising your freedom of speech that makes you anti-American...it's what you say when using it that gives you that label and the constitution gives me the the right to say so. As much as you may hate the truth.

IF you use your freedom of speech to say America is evil and should be destroyed or the government should be over thrown...that makes you an anti-American....

When you turn 4(mentally) you'll get it...right now it's too compex for you to understand..but just realize the inability to comprehend lies on your side...

[Spurminator]

Meanwhile, on the other side of town..

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/iraq-rally.jpg

They were out voting and doing other stuff that actually makes any kind of difference in anything.

[mookie2001]

Again we see clear evidence of the stupidity of the libs....Notice how they try to wrap their terrorist sympathizing and anti-Americanism in the flag?

I mean let's use apply this logic to other issues besides the Iraq war...

Constitution gives you the right to bear arms...if you go buy a gun and then shoot at US soldiers with it...that is anti-American, and me calling so is not infringing on your constitional rights.

If you speak on a message board and spew a bunch of racial hatred...like saying...oh for instance..you hate rich white people...me calling you a racist is not an attack on your constitutional rights...as pointed out earlier...it's merely being truthful. nobody here has ever done that



If not excercising your freedom of speech that makes you anti-American...it's what you say when using that gives you that label.

IF you use your freedom of speech to say America is evil and should be destroyed or the government should be over thrown...that makes you an anti-American....
the problem you have you stupid motherfucker is
is that people say things you dont want to hear
which is the nature of free speech
i dont agree with some of whatever protesters youre talking about
but nobody is going to challenge free speech over an issue of Martha Stuart Living, its gonna be a case where you dont like whats being said

[whottt]

nobody here has ever done that

the problem you have you stupid motherfucker is
is that people say things you dont want to hear
which is the nature of free speech

Oh yeah...and you guys are so tolerant of those with differing views...




i dont agree with some of whatever protesters youre talking about
but nobody is going to challenge free speech over an issue of Martha Stuart Living, its gonna be a case where you dont like whats being said


Who is denying them their right to free speech? Show me in the constitution where I don't have a right to judge someone for their opinion...

How hard is it to figure out that it's not free speech I have a problem with...

[mookie2001]

like you said youve got the right to call anyone anything
except if you tell cheney to go fuck himself

[mookie2001]

well explain "protest zones" to me

[hussker]

Meanwhile, on the other side of town..

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/IMAGES/iraq-rally.jpg


Meanwhile, as a matter of history:

PRESIDENTIAL RESULTS (270 Electoral Votes Needed to Win)

Electoral Votes Popular Votes % Popular Votes

Bush (R) 286 60,693,281 51

Kerry (D) 252 57,355,978 48

Get geared up for 08...Slam the Lame Duck as much as you can...it only adds to the rhetoric your side has already spouted.

PSSST....Don't spend too much time figuring out how to beat George Bush. It did not help you when he was running for office. :)

[hussker]

like you said youve got the right to call anyone anything
except if you tell cheney to go fuck himself

BUGGERING oneself is probably tough enough, let alone post operatively. Lay off the old guy intil he gets better.
(By the way, I was a Med School Classmate of the guy who tends to the VEEP and his family)

[whottt]

Liberal Logic at work:

Terrorist Sympathizer: Bush is evil. America is the most murderous country on earth. Those killing US soldiers in Iraq are freedom fighters. I hate America. Arab Jizz tastes great. Anyone who doesn't agrree with us is a murder and the true terrorist.

Intelligent Responder: Geeez what a disgusting anti-American piece of shit you are, I loathe you and I think you are demoralizing our troops and aiding those we are fighting.

Terrorist sympathizer: You are denying my right to Free Speech!


:wtf


Retards.

[hussker]

And to think Today is Ben Franklin's 300th Birthday. If we had only kept the wisdom before we buried the man...

[mookie2001]

im only 3 mentally
explain protest zones

[hussker]

Liberal Logic at work:

Terrorist Sympathizer: Bush is evil. America is the most murderous country on earth. Those killing US soldiers in Iraq are freedom fighters. I hate America. Arab Jizz tastes great. Anyone who doesn't agrree with us is a murder and the true terrorist.

Intelligent Responder: Geeez what a disgusting anti-American piece of shit you are, I loathe you and I think you are demoralizing our troops and aiding those we are fighting.

Terrorist sympathizer: You are denying my right to Free Speech!


:wtf


Retards.

So true, so true

[Spurminator]

im only 3 mentally
explain protest zones

Depends on who you ask... they either prevent obstruction that usually happens with large groups of people, or they shield government officials from the barrage of witty posters and catchphrases.

[whottt]

well explain "protest zones" to me


I don't believe the right to free speech gurantees the right to obstruct traffic or cause civil disorder etc...s'not hard to figure out. You have the right to use it intelligently...not be a dumbass about it, or expect others to be stupid about it when it is being abused .


If you go around saying you want to kill someone and that guy gets killed...you will get investigated because of your comments.

What's the expression? You can't just go and yell fire in a movie theater...

[mookie2001]

well you could never protest in the middle of the street
i just learned about these during the 04 RNC

i like the name

[mookie2001]

whats the arguement against free speech?..oh yeah

You can't just go and yell fire in a movie theater...

[whottt]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (4 members and 0 guests)
whottt, mookie2001, ChumpDumper, jochhejaam


I have a gut feeling this thread is about to take a turn for the stupid(er)

[Spurminator]

well you could never protest in the middle of the street

Sure you can, if you're permitted.

They weren't permitted to do so at the RNC in the middle of New York City. All they got was national television exposure for their pithy posters. What a great tragedy.

[ChumpDumper]

Nice of you to stalk me, but I there isn't much to say. Looked like alot of people, but so what? We're stuck in Iraq for awhile.

[jochhejaam]

I have a gut feeling this thread is about to take a turn for the stupid(er)


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 4 (4 members and 0 guests)
jochhejaam, mookie2001, ChumpDumper, Spurminator

you left...are we to assume you don't care for stupid(er) :lol

[ChumpDumper]

you left...are we to assume you don't care for stupid(er) :lolHe'll never leave. He's obsessed.

[hussker]

He'll never leave. He's obsessed.
:lol

[Spurminator]

http://img166.imageshack.us/img166/2475/blondeprotester5gg.jpg

[smeagol]

They aren't opposing the war...they are opposing America. When was the last time you saw them protesting the terrorists?


Pacifists my ass. When you call us the bad guys and label them the freedom fighters you are definitely anti-American. We were at war in Iraq to remove Saddam...
Well . . . I can't speak for the protesters. As for my own beliefs, I oppose the war, but I oppose much more the terrorists. You cannot even start to compare by opposition to terrorists with regards to my opposition against the war.

But you, whottt, have labeled me Anti-American because I have voiced my opposition. And that's what ticks me off. I'm probably as far from being Anti-American as you'll find in my country. Just because I don't support the Iraq war and ceratin other American policies, in your eyes, I hate America.

My friend, that's BS.

[whottt]

But you, whottt, have labeled me Anti-American because I have voiced my opposition. And that's what ticks me off. I'm probably as far from being Anti-American as you'll find in my country. Just because I don't support the Iraq war and ceratin other American policies, in your eyes, I hate America.

My friend, that's BS.


As I said from the get go...if you argue for the position of those that do hate America then I will respond to you as I would those that do...You yourself elected to argue from the POV of those that hate America...whether it was a case of Devil's advocacy or not...IOW...you put your feet in those shoes...not I. EG: "Why does the rest of the World hate America"


And furthermore...you are very naive about the corruption in the UN and the Anti-American stance of the German Chancellor and many Germans...dead bodies of US soldiers on his campaign posters...


I wonder though...you never took my neo-con or Political Compass test...will you be willing to do so now? I want to see just how far to the left the right is where you come from...it's an interesting dynamic at work for me because I know there is an extremist right wing in Argentina as well...but I haven't seen it from an Argentine on the forum yet...of course these tests are probably not going to be a good indicator anyway, because they are geared at Americans and from the American POV...


And one other thing...you are an Argentine so why is it such a big deal if someone does say the anti-American thing? It's not like it's a big deal if you are...I mean you aren't from America...that's almost like getting offended if I called you Pro-Argentine...

[RandomGuy]

[QUOTE=RandomGuy]Iraq had NOTHING to do with the "war" on terrorism until we made it that way. [QUOTE]

And that's officially and without arguement the final and popular consensus? Because RG says so?

The point I made is that it has been for some time and is today the main artery of terrorist insurgency and is the main theatre of battle where terrorism is being fought.
Argue the historical points of the War, which are presently irrelevant to the battles taking place, with the other pacifists who would prefer we be picked apart by the terrorist's a hundred or a thousand at a time on our soil. As for now, we are fighting a sick, demonic, demented enemy who arbitrarily maim and kill regardless age, gender, race, nationality or political affiliation!

I would point out that anybody who had clue one about the middle east or muslim culture/politics could have (and did) say that Iraq would become exactly what it has become: a battleground.

Yes today Iraq is a battleground fought over by the nutjobs we are fighting and our military.

You are fooling yourself if you think that the fighting in Iraq is somehow "keeping them over there".

We are fighting them over there and training them so that they can come over here and kill more civilians. There are a BILLION muslims, most of whom are appalled at what is going on there.

BUT

The fighting there is moving the line that separates those who actively choose to participate in a misguided jihad and those who merely sympathize with it. When that line starts moving, the chances of some cell somewhere successfully attacking us on our own soil increases, because there are a BILLION potential recruits just waiting...

[RandomGuy]

Mommy, why do faggot ass liberals protect the terrorists, who hate us because of our faggot ass liberals, and why don't they understand the root cause of terrorism is all the despotic anti-Democratic leaders in power over there and that installing a liberal government puts pressure on all the terrorist producing states to become more Democratic and therefore less despotic(and less likely to produce future terrorists?



:lol *I* am "protecting" the terrorists.

Your ignorance is contributing DIRECTLY to the next successful attack on American soil, traitor.

You have blinded yourself to the failures of this administrations policies, and told yourself that what they are doing is actually working.

Have you EVER talked to ANYONE from the middle east about why there is so much resentment and paranoia about the USA?

[Vashner]

Yea.. they are screaming "Allah Ackbar" while they try to kill you..

That's not related at all. Remember Islam is peace.. and Islam can't do you any harm. Resistance is Islam is futile...

Here slap this burka on.. and if I see your ankles or if you leave the city I will beat you senseless for months on in and it will be legal.

Wow you know I always liked my women beaten down.. But Iraq is not related to 9/11 ... that Allah Ackbar is not the same..

One is to blow up nyc the other is to kill your soldier infidel.. you see our
logic is best.

The pilots on 9/11 where not screaming "Allah Ackbar" just like our brave warriors in Iraq do.. that's all just cooked up by the CIA..

You know america is doomed.. and this stupid freedom.. ahahha
Give me a good koran and i'll give freedom where it belongs.. in the select group of a few stupid fucking old men that like to beat on women.

yea... your right let's just give up.. after all here in Bulverde I would like a bunch of Call to prayer speakers ...

Just that perfect Texas hill country touch to say "all bow to Allah" in the morning..

I love this DNC future it's great...

Ok I am bending over now and giving up everything we ever fought for..

You fucking liberals happy now ??

.....





http://www.oldamericancentury.org/mommy_stupid.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Suzy...I think on some level they realize this...but basically they are scared because the terrorists are fighting back...Remember...they are stupider than an average 4 year old, and only support wars where the opposition doesn't fight back, they don't understand that the terrorists are going to fight back and think it's a disaster that they have chosen to do so...You see...they'd rather have the terrorists spread out in the world working in the shadows as opposed to being attacked conventionally in Iraq.

Fool. You think that the people who do the arming and bomb building are the ones who are dying?

The ones we are "attacking conventionally" in Iraq are NOT those who represent the greatest threat. The masterminds behind this are gaining all sorts of operational know-how and the casualty figures for the coalition support that assertion rather well.

We are killing a lot of stupid young men, and the ones behind THEM, the cynical manipulators, will go on to form the cadre that trains the next generation of Al Qaeda adherents that the fighting and Abu Gharaib pictures are creating.

I am NOT saying or advocating that we cut and run and leave the Iraqi people in the wind.

We have, though a grievous mistake and poorly planned war, incurred a moral obligation to help them to the best of our ability.

BUT

This administration has proven itself too ham-handed, disinterested, and incompetant, for me to trust that the "best of our ability" is happening.

[whottt]

Have you EVER talked to ANYONE from the middle east about why there is so much resentment and paranoia about the USA?



Why yes I have in fact...I have also dated a girl whose family was from Vietnam, and muslim woman from Pakistan before(now an athiest)...and they'd both probably spit in your face if they were to meet you.

[RandomGuy]

Link to where I said it should be banned?

That's what I thought.



You are pretty right about that bit. You never explicitly said such things should be banned.

AND

You are 100% right that you have the right to say what you think. Good citizens have the obligation to say so in a functioning democracy.

[RandomGuy]

Why yes I have in fact...I have also dated a girl whose family was from Vietnam, and muslim woman from Pakistan before(now an athiest)...and they'd both probably spit in your face if they were to meet you.

Good, and what did they say about why the US is mistrusted in parts of the world?

[Vashner]

The president is not going to give you the full battle plan....

Your just saying what the media wants you to say. If you look at the battle facts
we kicked some ass. You just have media crying and doing body count. But if you look at how much armor, planes, lasers etc we have deployed and the quality of the support. It blows away past wars...

The tech spin off alone will boost the private sector and civil technology thru the militarys transfer programms.

The president as the elected commander after 911 decided to take Saddams ass out..

Other people had to find dirt like scapegoat Powell..

But yea our president didn't fucking wait he went in to kick some ass.. and we have spanked that ass if you do the numbers compared to past human conflicts..

What I would suggest is that since YOU guys think the war is bad that in 2004 you elect BUsh out and put in Kerry..

Oh wait.. you lost...

I hear Detroit has good fishing...

[RandomGuy]

Mommy, why is it that they never protested Saddam, Usama or the Taliban, that it's only America they protest? And why do they think it's horrible that we are attempting to install a Democratic humane and liberal government in the Middle East?


This is your best point yet, and the reason I personally dislike these large protests.

The world is rife with corrupt governments and brutal dictators. We SHOULD be protesting them, and scrupulously link relations with us to human rights and freedom.

If half the effort put into protests like this was put into working towards getting rid of these petty tyrants, the world would be a better place.

[RandomGuy]

Again we see clear evidence of the stupidity of the libs....Notice how they try to wrap their terrorist sympathizing and anti-Americanism in the constitution?


And this activity is "terrorist sympathizing" and "anti-American" because *you* say so, and that is beyond arguing...

:rolleyes

[RandomGuy]

IF you use your freedom of speech to say America is evil and should be destroyed or the government should be over thrown...that makes you an anti-American....

When you turn 4(mentally) you'll get it...right now it's too compex for you to understand..but just realize the inability to comprehend lies on your side...

There is a HUGE difference between thinking some of our policies are evil and our country is evil.

Most liberals would say as much. I love my country every bit as much as you do. I just don't blind myself to it's faults and mistakes. I prefer having the FULL truth, for good or ill.

[RandomGuy]

The tech spin off alone will boost the private sector and civil technology thru the militarys transfer programms.


The military was already in the midst of a moderisation that would have happened with or without a pointless invasion.

This whole stupid war has made us less safe, and there is a LOT more that backs that assertion than the other way around.

[whottt]

Fool. You think that the people who do the arming and bomb building are the ones who are dying?

The ones we are "attacking conventionally" in Iraq are NOT those who represent the greatest threat.


Oh I agree...their leaders are too cowardly to do the suicide bombings and risk their own lives.

No the ones doing the suicide bombings and killing are the homless and poverty ridden children schooled by the Madrassas and turned into total instruments of death...

But you are wrong if you think they are not a danger, stick a nuke on one of these guys and he is far more dangerous than the leaders...and you are wrong if you don't think toppling Saddam, and the second most powerful military(albeit weakened) in the Middle East, doesn't send a message to the leaders in the despotic countries where terrorism is rampant....I gurantee you at the highest levels those guys are starting to tell their Mullah's and College professors to temper their anti-American sentiment...and aim it elsehwere(unfortunately they don't have anywhere to aim it...and they certainly can't aim at the deserving parties, themselves).

You see the message that was sent with the fall of Iraq is...if you don't improve your social programs and stop pointing the finger at us we are going to take your country from you.


That is the attack on the leaders...and the only thing that undermines it is the anti-war sentiment here in the US..the only think keeping those leaders from shitting in their pants is the believe, thanks to our anti-wars, that the American people will not stand for another pre-emptive strike...so now, they still have hope that if they can just ramp up a few terrorist attacks and kill a couple of US soldiers...America will eventually fall from within...just like how the Soviets beat us in Vietnam.

As for the foot solider terrorists...these guys were there to being with...they are fanatical killing machines that cannot be redeemed. They can only be killed...and they are a hell of a lot easier to kill in Iraq in a conventional war than they are lurking in the shadows.



We are killing a lot of stupid young men, and the ones behind THEM, the cynical manipulators, will go on to form the cadre that trains the next generation of Al Qaeda adherents that the fighting and Abu Gharaib pictures are creating.

There are only two demographics that breed fanaticism...the very wealthy, who are that way because they seek power, and the very poor and opressed(who turn to religion to deal with the hopelessness of their sitution)...


I am NOT saying or advocating that we cut and run and leave the Iraqi people in the wind.

That is what Cindy Sheehan is saying....




This administration has proven itself too ham-handed, disinterested, and incompetant, for me to trust that the "best of our ability" is happening.


Did you guys honestly think this was only going to take 6 months?

We've been there over 2 years, toppled the second largest army in the world, been fighting a terrorist insurgency with a global recruiting base, and less than 2000 soldiers have been killed...

Everyone knows it's the Iraqis that are going to have to seize this opportunity...and they are doing so.

How come you guys don't notice that the terrorist are attacking the Iraqi people now? How come you guys haven't noticed that Al Qaeda has declared war on the Shi'as? How come you haven't noticed the Shia students opposing the millitant Shi'as in the south...

There is no unified muslim base here...we've driven a wedge between the terrorists and the moderate muslims...the only ones that can police their religion are the muslims themselves and the willingness to do so, is now there, whereas before it wasn't.

There are certain faults with this war...dissolving the Iraqi Army carelessly...failure to secure the Saudi, Syrian, and Iranian border(although that may have been by design to let the terrorists into a kill zone)...

But there is no fucking such thing as a perfect war...and historically, this has been one of the most effective wars waged in American history....but it's far from over....but it's not as far away as you like to believe.


And more importantly...we are crawling up Iran's ass in every direction...we have much more ability to put pressure on them than we did before...if they think Bush has the balls to come down on them...there is no doubt Bush has done his part to send the message that these guys need to fear him...and there is also no doubt that our anti-wars have undermined that message and given them hope...


And if you don't agree we should cut and run...then what the fuck are you protesting about?

Bush's can't run again...and we can't change the fact that we invaded Iraq...so what purpose does this anti-war protest serve? We already know you guys hate Bush...we knew it in the last election...it hurt your cause...

[smeagol]

As I said from the get go...if you argue for the position of those that do hate America then I will respond to you as I would those that do...You yourself elected to argue from the POV of those that hate America
I elect to argue from nobody's position but mine.



you put your feet in those shoes...not I. EG: "Why does the rest of the World hate America"
More than once I took back the word "hate" in the title of that thread. I said many times I should have used the word "dislike" (I actually went back and changed the title of the thread). Again, you are using against me the same stupid arguments people use againt you in the "Shane Heal" or "Dave vs The Coyote" arguments.

In any case, it was and still is a legit question. And it has nothing to do with hating America. You, who love America so much, could have asked the same question.

There is a reality and that is that America is not a well-liked nation. You even said it many times in the Auschwitz thread. So what's wrong with asking Americans why they think other people outside America have issues with them?



And furthermore...you are very naive about the corruption in the UN and the
I believe there needs to be a body, a League of Nations if you will, who regulates certain World affairs. I don't want the US, Britain, Germany, France or Argentina, for that matter, doing as they please in very sensitive issues as invading other soveriegn nations.


and the Anti-Americanstance of the German Chancellor and many Germans...
And what about the anti-German and ant-French stance in the US? There were even some idiotic politicians trying to change the name of the french fries to "freedom" fries :lol



...dead bodies of US soldiers on his campaign posters...
His campaign posters were truly a disgrace and you have every reason to be mad at him.



I wonder though...you never took my neo-con or Political Compass test...will you be willing to do so now? I want to see just how far to the left the right is where you come from...it's an interesting dynamic at work for me because I know there is an extremist right wing in Argentina as well...but I haven't seen it from an Argentine on the forum yet...of course these tests are probably not going to be a good indicator anyway, because they are geared at Americans and from the American POV...
I started taking it but got caught up in something else. I would probably come out as a liberal.



And one other thing...you are an Argentine so why is it such a big deal if someone does say the anti-American thing? It's not like it's a big deal if you are...I mean you aren't from America...that's almost like getting offended if I called you Pro-Argentine...
I'm not sure I follow you.

The only reason it's a big deal if you say I'm anti-American, it's because I'm not.

[RandomGuy]

Heh, wife wants the computer, and I need to get to homework. Ah the joys of pension plan accounting and audit planning...

Laters.

[Dos]

funny how now one wants to discuss attacks by terrorist even before our invasion of iraq, were they embolden then by what? Probably the same hate they have always had for us..

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=RandomGuy]Yes today Iraq is a battleground fought over by the nutjobs we are fighting and our military.
You are fooling yourself if you think that the fighting in Iraq is somehow "keeping them over there".

I don't recall a major terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11 so to this point I'm not fooling myself.



We are fighting them over there and training them so that they can come over here and kill more civilians. There are a BILLION muslims, most of whom are appalled at what is going on there.

How are we training them? (The questions rhetorical, meaning your response would probably sicken me).


The fighting there is moving the line that separates those who actively choose to participate in a misguided jihad and those who merely sympathize with it. When that line starts moving, the chances of some cell somewhere successfully attacking us on our own soil increases, because there are a BILLION potential recruits just waiting..

So all 1 billion muslims are predisposed to becoming fanatical Islamist Extremists? Are they an inferior class of people that you would think so little of them?
The fighting over there is solidifying the resolve of the Islamists who covet freedom (engendered human trait) and see their so called "Muslim Brothers" killing other Muslims while foreign soldiers are simultaneously sacrificing their lives for their freedom.
You'd have to be a certified lunatic to argue this!

[Nbadan]

funny how now one wants to discuss attacks by terrorist even before our invasion of iraq, were they embolden then by what? Probably the same hate they have always had for us..

Saddam allegedly gave money to Palestianian suicide bombers families who's homes were subsequently demolished by the Israelis, but there is no proof that Saddam or Iraq supplied or participated in international terrorism.

[Vashner]

There is proof that he commited mass murder. Which is an international crime.
Including the bodies... documents , witnesses etc.

Hey but who cares as long as he only gasses one small down big deal right?

[Nbadan]

There is proof that he commited mass murder. Which is an international crime.
Including the bodies... documents , witnesses etc.

Hey but who cares as long as he only gasses one small down big deal right?

Some would say that there is also some proof that our own leaders may have committed international crimes.

But who cares as long as it's not against American citizens, right?

[Nbadan]

Oh I agree...their leaders are too cowardly to do the suicide bombings and risk their own lives.

This coming from a AWOL * supporter!

:lol

[Nbadan]

You see the message that was sent with the fall of Iraq is...if you don't improve your social programs and stop pointing the finger at us we are going to take your country from you.

What are you smoking? The message countries like Iran and North Korea got is it doesn't matter whether you comply the with the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty and/or I.A.E.A. inspections because if we really want to invade you, we will manufacture all the evidence we need anyway.

[Nbadan]

And more importantly...we are crawling up Iran's ass in every direction...we have much more ability to put pressure on them than we did before...if they think Bush has the balls to come down on them...there is no doubt Bush has done his part to send the message that these guys need to fear him...and there is also no doubt that our anti-wars have undermined that message and given them hope...

:rolleyes

Yeah, it's all the Anti-war movement's fault. This is because the Iranians can't figure it out for themselves that the Iraq war has depleted the morale of our active-duty fighting force and just about killed our Reserves and National Guard.

[Nbadan]

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-2/12444/loveamericafirst4.jpg


WASHINGTON Military families and others defending the war in Iraq took their turn Sunday to demonstrate on the National Mall (search), if in much smaller numbers, and counter the massive protest against the war a day earlier.

About 100 people had gathered before a stage set up on the eastern portion of the mall as the noon rally began. A large photo of an American flag served as a backdrop for the stage, and country music blared from speakers while other banners and signs proclaiming support for U.S. troops waved in the breeze.

----

"We're hoping for more folks," said Kristinn Taylor, a leader of FreeRepublic.com , one of the sponsors. "People have been fired up over the past month, especially military family members, and they want to be heard."

Earlier, Taylor said organizers were prepared for 20,000 people to attend the pro-military rally , billed as a time to honor the troops fighting "the war on terrorism in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere around the world."

Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170344,00.html)

[xrayzebra]

Fool. You think that the people who do the arming and bomb building are the ones who are dying?

The ones we are "attacking conventionally" in Iraq are NOT those who represent the greatest threat. The masterminds behind this are gaining all sorts of operational know-how and the casualty figures for the coalition support that assertion rather well.

We are killing a lot of stupid young men, and the ones behind THEM, the cynical manipulators, will go on to form the cadre that trains the next generation of Al Qaeda adherents that the fighting and Abu Gharaib pictures are creating.

I am NOT saying or advocating that we cut and run and leave the Iraqi people in the wind.

We have, though a grievous mistake and poorly planned war, incurred a moral obligation to help them to the best of our ability.

BUT

This administration has proven itself too ham-handed, disinterested, and incompetant, for me to trust that the "best of our ability" is happening.

RG, I am posting a link I think you and others who think Iraq is going to hell in a handbasket should, but will you, read.

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/

There is just too many pages of how things are going right to put on the site. Be prepared to have a long read; because, there are many pages of stuff going right. Enjoy. One thing, Chrenkoff is not a reporter, he searches out this information. But he did live under Communist rule and he is not an American nor Bush Man.

[Yonivore]

RG, I am posting a link I think you and others who think Iraq is going to hell in a handbasket should, but will you, read.

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/

There is just too many pages of how things are going right to put on the site. Be prepared to have a long read; because, there are many pages of stuff going right. Enjoy. One thing, Chrenkoff is not a reporter, he searches out this information. But he did live under Communist rule and he is not an American nor Bush Man.
Random Guy is an intelligence analyst extraordinaire; you don't think he's seen these reports?

[xrayzebra]

Random Guy is an intelligence analyst extraordinaire; you don't think he's seen these reports?

yeah, I forgot!

He is Intelligent.

[RandomGuy]

[QUOTE]

I don't recall a major terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11 so to this point I'm not fooling myself.

You are if you think that the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with this. As I stated, the invasion of Iraq has made it arguably MORE likely that we will experience more attacks than there would have been had we NOT gone there.



[QUOTE]

How are we training them? (The questions [sic] rhetorical, meaning your response would probably sicken me).

We are providing them the opportunity to build bombs, command "troops" and everthing involved in that. We are providing them valuable networking opportunities by dint of those who hate us most have a very obvious destination: Iraq. I would hope this response sickens you as much as it does me. The truth of our mistake and the consequences of the piss-poor planning involved in this so far should sicken anyone.



[QUOTE]
So all 1 billion muslims are predisposed to becoming fanatical Islamist Extremists? Are they an inferior class of people that you would think so little of them?
The fighting over there is solidifying the resolve of the Islamists who covet freedom (engendered human trait) and see their so called "Muslim Brothers" killing other Muslims while foreign soldiers are simultaneously sacrificing their lives for their freedom.
You'd have to be a certified lunatic to argue this!

Not all billion muslims are predisposed, obviously. They are as diverse as any poplulation of such a size are.
BUT
1) There is a percentage of this population that are completely dedicated to our destruction.
2) There is a further percentage of this billion that sypathize with group #1 but don't actually do anything.
The more you provide group #1 with pictures from Abu Gharaib to show group #2, the more you get people moving from group #2 into group #1.

Those pictures are recruiting gold to our enemies, and a huge wedge with our allies.

The ONLY hope we have is that the people in group #2 have the sense to realize that the people in group #1 really aren't good muslims and are little more than violent thugs who turn their back on the teachings of Mohammed. Violent, indescriminate attacks do that exactly, and it is that kind of thing that may be the only saving grace of the slaughter in Iraq.

The BIG problem is that the "muslim street" has pretty much thought of us as enemies for a long time because of our support for Israel.

The nutjobs get something of a free ride because they are nominally muslims, and we get pilloried for relatively minor things.

We have to do ten times the good to make one step towards the better in opinion, and get set back two when we mess up. Not fair, but it IS a reality (among so many others) that this administration seems incapable of understanding.

[RandomGuy]

Random Guy is an intelligence analyst extraordinaire; you don't think he's seen these reports?

I have indeed.

Chrenkoff has a VERY good point when he says that the positive results in Iraq and Afghanistan are "the often under-reported and overlooked".

They are.

It is a simple fact of modern journalism that stories of, say, a new sewer line opening in a neighborhood that has never had anything but an open trench aren't quite as sexy as body counts.

It is NOT my contention that Iraq is "going to hell in a handbasket". I would say that it is teetering at the brink, but that I am slightly optimistic for many of the reasons listed in that long compendium.

BUT

Neither will I blind myself, as this administration and it's blithely ignorant supporters do, of the dangers and negative aspects.

Anyone who says they know what will happen in Iraq in the next 10 years is full of shit. It is simply too unstable, with too many variables at play.

Everything listed in that link is PART of the overall truth. Just as all the bombings, assassinations, and torture are PART of the overall truth.

Intelligence work, like any other analytical work, is taking ALL of the available information and trying to make sense of it in some rational, logical way.

Administration spin is a dangerous thing, because so many accept it as the 100% truth, suspend their critical thinking, and come away making faulty decisions on the efficacy of Bush policies.

No one with good critical thinking skills thinks that they can listen to one side of a story and come away with the full truth.

[RandomGuy]

There is proof that he commited mass murder. Which is an international crime.
Including the bodies... documents , witnesses etc.

Hey but who cares as long as he only gasses one small down big deal right?

Why did we not take out Pol Pot then?

He killed millions.

There are plenty of other brutal dictators and countries crying out for justice, but we ignored, and continue to ignore them.

Hell, if we invaded the Sudan, I would be all for that, provided it was done to SOME level of planning. Iraq demonstrated exactly what can go wrong when there isn't any planning for a post-war phase. My problem with Iraq is that the reasoning given was played up for public consumption to a degree that verges on criminal, and then that it was executed with a level of negligence that easily passes into the criminal.

[RandomGuy]

yeah, I forgot!

He is Intelligent.

Thank you.

[RandomGuy]

Did you guys honestly think this was only going to take 6 months?

We've been there over 2 years, toppled the second largest army in the world, been fighting a terrorist insurgency with a global recruiting base, and less than 2000 soldiers have been killed...


And how many of those 2000 could have been saved if GW and company had planned the war better?

A few more armored vehicles would have saved hundreds of servicemembers.
Keeping some of the security forces in place rather than disbanding hundreds of thousands of soldiers and police all at once could have saved us from some of the burden of security and doubtless saved hundreds more.

Both of these things were easy things to predict IF you know what you are getting into.

GW is clueless and people die. That is why we can't afford "average" in our commander in chief.

"Gee he's so likable, and he's a decent guy." We aren't paying him to be decent, we are paying him to be competant, and he has proven to me long ago that he isn't.

[jochhejaam]

Posted by RandomGuy: You are if you think that the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with this. As I stated, the invasion of Iraq has made it arguably MORE likely that we will experience more attacks than there would have been had we NOT gone there.

As I stated inarguably, "I don't recall a major terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11 so to this point".




We are providing them the opportunity to build bombs,

They didn't have the opportunity to build bombs until we invaded?







We are providing them valuable networking opportunities

Bin Laden isolated, without communications network, Pakistanis say
Al Qaeda leader using couriers to deliver messages,
By Sadaqat Jan
ASSOCIATED PRESS

Monday, September 26, 2005

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan -- Osama bin Laden is hiding out with a small core of mainly Arab supporters, and the al Qaeda leader sends messages only by courier because his communications network has been destroyed,

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/auto/epaper/editions/monday/news_3473c96d117341ed005f.html





[



Posted by jochhejaam: The questions [sic] rhetorical



Posted by RandomGuy: They are as diverse as any poplulation [sic] of such a size are [sic]

Just thought I'd join in the fun.

[RandomGuy]

Quote:
Posted by RandomGuy: They are as diverse as any poplulation [sic] of such a size are [sic]
Just thought I'd join in the fun.


(laughs)

Touche.

[RandomGuy]

As I stated inarguably, "I don't recall a major terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11 so to this point". .

With the obvious implication that the attack in Iraq has made us somehow safer, yes or no?

[RandomGuy]

They didn't have the opportunity to build bombs until we invaded?


Not in combat conditions, not in such large numbers, and not with the ability to train all the other nutjobs that have been attracted to a single place.

Central and southern Iraq is singularly one of the least secure places on the planet, and was made so directly through our actions in invading them.

[RandomGuy]

Bin Laden isolated, without communications network, Pakistanis say
Al Qaeda leader using couriers to deliver messages,
By Sadaqat Jan
ASSOCIATED PRESS


And this is related to Iraq how?

[RandomGuy]

Bin Laden isolated, without communications network, Pakistanis say
Al Qaeda leader using couriers to deliver messages,
By Sadaqat Jan
ASSOCIATED PRESS

Oprah: The MusicalOprah: The Musical
by Gina Serpe
Sep 26, 2005, 10:35 AM PT
It all comes full circle for "O."
Oprah Winfrey is adding Broadway producer and real estate mogul to her ever-expanding resume.
The hostess with the mostess has invested more than $1 million to become the prime producer of the Broadway-bound musical, The Color Purple. Winfrey's substantial contribution earns the daytime diva her first Broadway credit.


The above news excerpt has as much to do with Iraq as yours does.

[jochhejaam]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Originally Posted by jochhejaam As I stated inarguably, "I don't recall a major terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11 so to this point". .



With the obvious implication that the attack in Iraq has made us somehow safer, yes or no?


I don't see anything im my post about the attack in Iraq so where's the obvious implication?

Intelligence Analyst analyzes with imaginary information?

[jochhejaam]

RandomGuy: We are providing them valuable networking opportunities by dint of those who hate us most have a very obvious destination:


Originally posted by jochhejaam: 'Bin Laden isolated, without communications network... his communications network has been destroyed,'



[QUOTE=RandomGuy]And this is related to Iraq how?

Intelligence Analyst seeks information from private citizen^^^
jochhejaam<---willing to spend some time if it helps to educate RG who seems to lack basic reasoning skills.

Dec 30, 2004
In Iraq, a clear-cut bin Laden-Zarqawi alliance (psst RG, this equals related to Iraq)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1230/p01s03-woiq.html


Bin Laden, insurgents, Iraq, Al-Zawahri are central parts of the terrorist network in the middle east The communication network from one of the leading terrorists is almost non-existent. A networking opportunity cannot be considered valuable if it is almost non-existent.

Get with the program RG!




http://www.ciai-s.net/AymanAl_Zawahri-binLaden.jpg

^^^Showing disappoint with RG's unsupported arguements

[RandomGuy]

I don't see anything im my post about the attack in Iraq so where's the obvious implication?

Intelligence Analyst analyzes with imaginary information?

Dude, you are making waaay more of a deal about the Intel Analyst thing than I ever did or do. Is there something you want to say?

[RandomGuy]

I don't see anything im my post about the attack in Iraq so where's the obvious implication?

Intelligence Analyst analyzes with imaginary information?


:rolleyes

RandomGuy: Yes today Iraq is a battleground fought over by the nutjobs we are fighting and our military.
You are fooling yourself if you think that the fighting in Iraq is somehow "keeping them over there".

Jochhejaam:I don't recall a major terrorist attack on American soil since 9/11 so to this point I'm not fooling myself.

Your response was directed at what I was saying about Iraq. Silly me to think you might have made an assertion that the lack of attacks was due to the invasion of Iraq.

So what exactly ARE you saying? I am genuinely puzzled.

[RandomGuy]

[QUOTE]

Bin Laden, insurgents, Iraq, Al-Zawahri are central parts of the terrorist network in the middle east The communication network from one of the leading terrorists is almost non-existent. A networking opportunity cannot be considered valuable if it is almost non-existent.


When did I mention Bin Laden or Zawahri? You have fallen into a very common misconception about "the terrorists" and this is very evident from your language usage.

1) Bin Laden does NOT equal Al Qaeda, any more than Bush equals the US government. Both men are parts of a greater whole.

2) There is no such thing as "the" terrorist anything.

You have mistakenly painted a picture of some heirarchy whose shape is pyramidal, like a military unit. Some larger organizations do have some heirachy, but Al Qaeda's organization is morphing to become much "flatter".

3) Al Qaeda does not equal all mulsim terrorists.

There are other groups, subgroups and loosely based movements in the Islamist ideology that wants to really do us harm.

That said, in the context of communication networks, you are right that Osama is very isolated.

Osama's isolation is irrelevant to my point of HUMAN networking in Iraq.
The mid-level people who are arranging no small amount of the violence are gaining a valuable opportunity to meet each other and form the human contacts that are similar to business contacts at industry conferences.

Iraq is a very convenient place for these nutjobs to meet and work together. Occasionally we get an important chief organizer, but the increasing violence suggests to me that we are missing quite a few of the people behind this.

Here is a good primer for you on terrorist organization and tactics: (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/accp/it0468/lsn2.htm)

[RandomGuy]

Dude, you are making waaay more of a deal about the Intel Analyst thing than I ever did or do. Is there something you want to say?


Heh, maybe this is what you are trying to get at...

http://www.trephination.net/gallery/macros/internet_cock.jpg

[RandomGuy]

Bump for the halibut

[RandomGuy]

Random Guy is an intelligence analyst extraordinaire; you don't think he's seen these reports?
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a131/bluepooh72/DD214.jpg