Was Pat Tillman Anti-American?

[Nbadan]

It would appear so if you applied Whott's logic...


Yet other Tillman family members are less reluctant to show Tillman’s unique character, which was more complex than the public image of a gung-ho patriotic warrior. He started keeping a journal at 16 and continued the practice on the battlefield, writing in it regularly. (His journal was lost immediately after his death.) Mary Tillman said a friend of Pat’s even arranged a private meeting with Chomsky, the antiwar author, to take place after his return from Afghanistan — a meeting prevented by his death. She said that although he supported the Afghan war, believing it justified by the Sept. 11 attacks, “Pat was very critical of the whole Iraq war.”

Baer, who served with Tillman for more than a year in Iraq and Afghanistan, told one anecdote that took place during the March 2003 invasion as the Rangers moved up through southern Iraq.

“I can see it like a movie screen,” Baer said. “We were outside of (a city in southern Iraq) watching as bombs were dropping on the town. We were at an old air base, me, Kevin and Pat, we weren’t in the fight right then. We were talking. And Pat said, ‘You know, this war is so f— illegal.’ And we all said, ‘Yeah.’ That’s who he was. He totally was against Bush.”

Another soldier in the platoon, who asked not to be identified, said Pat urged him to vote for Bush’s Democratic opponent in the 2004 election, Sen. John Kerry

San Francisco Gate (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL)

Tillman served in Iraq before being killed in Afghanistan.

[ChumpDumper]

The choice is clear: we must discredit the living.

[T Park]

the person quoted wouldn't have any ax to grind would he???

San Francisco chronicle??

Now theres a reliable resource.

[whottt]

It would appear so if you applied Whott's logic...



San Francisco Gate (http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/09/25/MNGD7ETMNM1.DTL)

Tillman served in Iraq before being killed in Afghanistan.


From the very same article:


Mary Tillman says that’s how Pat would have wanted to be remembered, as an individual, not as a stock figure or political prop. But she also believes “Pat was a real hero, not what they used him as.”

Throughout the controversy, the Tillman family has been reluctant to cause a media stir. Mary noted that Pat shunned publicity, refusing all public comment when he enlisted and asking the Army to reject all media requests for interviews while he was in service. Pat’s widow, Marie, and his brother Kevin have not become publicly involved in the case, and they declined to comment for this article.

Unlike Cindy Sheehan — who has protested against President Bush because of the death of her son Casey in combat in Baghdad — Mary Tillman, 49, who teaches learning-disabled students in a San Jose public junior high school, and her ex-husband, Patrick Tillman, 50, a San Jose lawyer, have avoided association with the anti-war movement.


You'll just shit on anyones life, and death, won't you?


And for the 1,544,564,564,464,565,675,637,909,987,876 time...the Iraq war was not illegal, the cease fire ended in 1993, Saddam had been in violation of the weapons inspections since 1998, and Bill Clinton had plans to go into Iraq as well...the plan he used just wasn't successful. If you guys weren't so quick to throw lies out there maybe many people, like Tillman, wouldn't be confused...in any case...I don't see anything to indicate he would have participated in mass protests designed to demoralize our troops and give aid to the enemy.


He'd have used his right to vote...something all you guys had the opportunity to do...you lost. Accept it, accept the will of the American people, and stop demoralizing our fucking troops.

Only a fucking idiot thinks Usama and Zawahiri are sitting over there going...oh shit, they are protesting the war and trying to pull the soldiers out...how awful.

Usama said...they must rise up against their goverment...just like they did in Vietnam...

That's what he'll see as victory, that's and a mideast pull out, is what the terrorists will define as victory, that's what will make them stronger, possibly with the power to enslave the entire mid-east in a Taliban like society...and you are his whore.

[T Park]

^^ well said WHottt.

[Nbadan]

You'll just shit on anyone life, and death, won't you?

:lol

Yeah, but it was OK when the DoD was wrapping Tillman's death around the American Flag in support of the war, right? When those initial reports came out portraying as Tillman as having gone down in a hail of enemy gunfire everything was good. Now that we know that Tillman was killed by friendly fire it's hard for the pro-war crowd to use his death to justify their war.

[Nbadan]

He'd have used his right to vote...something all you guys had the opportunity to do...you lost. Accept it, accept the will of the American people, and stop demoralizing our fucking troops.

I know like most Republicans you don't believe in Science or polls, but scientifically-backed polls continue to show that most Americans do not support the Iraq war. This, and raising gas prices have contributed to W's continuing sliding approval numbers. Without approval numbers its difficult for the WH to get anything done.

[T Park]

raising gas prices have contributed to W's continuing sliding approval numbers


wich he has no control over.

If the far left enviromentalist whacko groups would let oil companies build newer refineries instead of relying on 30 year old ones, prices would drop.

[Vashner]

Pat Tillman would kick your ass... I would pay $20 bucks to watch too...

Sure some dumbass public affairs officers tried to lie but don't pin that shit on Pat.

[whottt]

:lol

Yeah, but it was OK when the DoD was wrapping Tillman's death around the American Flag in support of the war, right?

Of course not...and what happened to Tillman and is happening to his family absolute stinks.


But um..you do realize that it was revealed he died from friendly fire before the Presidential Elections don't you?



You and I both know that Bush isn't the reason Tillman is dead...but you and I both know that you guys will try to spin it that way anyway, and use Tillman as a political prop.

And how do you know what Tillman would have done? Do you think he would have wanted his death used to hurt the morale of his brother soldiers?

I don't. Just like I don't think Casey Sheehan would have wanted that either. But we'll never know..and because of that they deserve the right to rest in peace.



When those initial reports came out portraying as Tillman as having gone down in a hail of enemy gunfire everything was good. Now that we know that Tillman was killed by friendly fire it's hard for the pro-war crowd to use his death to justify their war.




Why is that? Tillman joined to go to Afghanistan and capture Usama Bin Laden...his death doesn't change that. He died in Afghanistan, not in Iraq....

If anything...his death still hurt the morale of US citizens...every death does...since when do troops dying make everything good? I mean you don't see the Bush admin touting the death numbers...I see the left doing that.

A guy like this dying doesn't exactly give you a nice warm feeling...but you need to not drag him and his family into your partisan shit...they made it clear they want no part of it. They get it...you don't. Too bad you can't follow their example.

[whottt]

I know like most Republicans you don't believe in Science or polls,

I am not a Republican unless I have no alternative...which you and your ilk taking over the Democratic party, make a certainty.



but scientifically-backed polls continue to show that most Americans do not support the Iraq war.

Show me the one that says they support an immediate pullout...and most Americans can voice their opinions with their vote in the next few years.



This, and raising gas prices have contributed to W's continuing sliding approval numbers. Without approval numbers its difficult for the WH to get anything done.

Well then what's the point of protesting? The protests don't have shit to do with it...if we catch Usama and Zawahiri in the next few weeks the polls will go up huge again...and your protests will have done nothing except encouraged the terrorists to hold out a bit longer.

The only justification for protesting right now is if you want an immediate pullout...if you don't..then you are just being stupid.

Because Bush is not going to be running for President again...

[Vashner]

They have been rushing into production the new network battle tools like 4th ID uses.
Helps ID friendly / foe.

Special forces are sometimes even more vunerable to FF. Due to mission types.

Sometimes this even happens here in the USA, people have shot family members or friends thinking they where burglers. Stupid yes but there are methods to ID your target etc.

[whottt]

Just tell me one thing...Dan and all you anti-wars...

Do you honestly think the terrorists leaders don't pay attention to these anti-war protests? Do you think they don't care about them? Or don't pay attention to them? Do you honestly think foreign enemy governments don't view them as helpful to their cause?

I just want to understand the mindset...because if you think any of those above mentioned things...I can get loads and loads of documentation and quotes to prove to you that you are wrong...and that it is part of the strategy in a war with America.

[whottt]

They have been rushing into production the new network battle tools like 4th ID uses.
Helps ID friendly / foe.

Special forces are sometimes even more vunerable to FF. Due to mission types.

Sometimes this even happens here in the USA, people have shot family members or friends thinking they where burglers. Stupid yes but there are methods to ID your target etc.


Maybe so...but there really isn't any excuse for the way his death was covered up...Dan is right, it was covered up for political reasons...but it would have been politicized just as much if it wasn't covered up..the point is that Tillman's family deserves better. Fuck the politics of it.

To me it's pretty obvious what happened...a colossal fuck up by the COs and troops in that division...the fuck up occurred at the lower level...the cover up was at the high level and it was covered up to protect the US military. I would say that it was covered up for the elections...but the fact that it was a friendly fire death came out before the elections...and his death didn't help, no matter the circumstances...it was just military ass covering...but you can't just shit on the patriotism of Americans like that.

[boutons]

If the point of "US enemy follows US anti-war sentiment" is to shut up and intimidate the anti-war sentiment, it won't work.

Any difference in behavior of the enemy in Iraq (where's the proof?) because of US citizens expressing anti-war positions is vastly outweighed (no matter what the proof):

1) by the deceptions of the Repubs in opting to invade Iraq as a policy totally detached from any "evidence" and

2) compounded by the horrible mismanagement of the war and the military by Rummy.

Does anybody really believe that if every US anit-war sentiment was immediately squelched that the Iraq enemy would stop fighting? or would fight less? GMAFB

The enemy in Iraq, just like the enemy in VN, is much more motivated, more crazy about winning, will last longer than the USA.

VN was a highly homogeneous country compared to the religious and ethnic fractures between Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiites in Iraq, to say nothing of Shiite Iran right next door ready to interfere on behalf of the Shiites.

The Repubs who chose to start this Iraq war knew from the VN experience IN THEIR OWN FUCKING LIFETIMES that if/when the US public sentiment turned overwhelmingly against the war (as it irretrievably has now), the Repubs would be toast and the war, too. The Repub rigged the game, they rolled their loaded dice, and they STILL lost in Iraq.

[JoeChalupa]

There are many serving right now who don't agree with the war or this administration's policies but that doesn't mean you don't support the Commander in Chief. It is just the way it is.

At least it was when I was serving.

[xrayzebra]

I know like most Republicans you don't believe in Science or polls, but scientifically-backed polls continue to show that most Americans do not support the Iraq war. This, and raising gas prices have contributed to W's continuing sliding approval numbers. Without approval numbers its difficult for the WH to get anything done.

In your fondest dreams. Live in your make believe world. Live off the dead as whott said and Mother Sheehan does. Bush is and will be President for three more years, he will act like a President. One thing you and your friends forget, Congress voted not once but twice to go into Iraq. This is America's war, like it or not. And when you demonstrate against the USA policies, you are acting in the enemy's behalf. That is a fact! You cant have it both ways like Clinton taught you. Get yourself a cigar wet it in the wet zone and stick it in your ear, stupid. Tillman is a hero in my eyes. It is terrible that he got killed by friendly fire, but it happens and has happened in every war.

[xrayzebra]

I

If anything...his death still hurt the morale of US citizens...every death does...since when do troops dying make everything good? I mean you don't see the Bush admin touting the death numbers...I see the left doing that.



Touting? They celebrate every death and cant wait until it reaches a new milestone. They are like vultures sitting on a tree branch. They wish the US to lose so they can say "we told you so". They look to Viet Nam as a victory for themselves and each young man that run to Canada as hero's who will have to live with the cowardlyness the rest of their lives. Oh, they are a fine bunch of people these lefties are, the backbone of the community. They create problems and then blame it on everyone but themselves. People living in poverty, we have spent six trillion dollars, New Orleans had 50 years of Dimm-o-craps running both the state and city and look at the poverty and rich politians. Gas shortages, but don't you dare dill any new wells or build new refineries. Electric shortages, no new coal plants, we see this here in San Antonio, no nuclear plants, got that one shoved down there throats, now build them. People who drive SUV are bad people, never mind they bought the car with their own money and the gas to drive them with their own money. God help us if they get any more control over this country. Go to a nice socialst state and see how they ration things, like Cuba.

[FromWayDowntown]

To me, dan's article accomplishes this: if Pat Tillman is a symbol of patriotism, then you can't say that his opposition to the Iraq war was unpatriotic (that, or you have to say that Tillman was unpatriotic).

I agree with Tillman -- I have always thought and continue to believe that the war in Afghanistan is completely justified and should be prosecuted to completion.

I have also always thought and continue to think that the war in Iraq is completely without justification (particularly under the theories that have been sold to us) and, at the very least, was imprudent. I would agree that, now that we're there, we can't pull out of Iraq without suffering dire consequences, but I don't think we should have gone there in the first place.

If I'm wrong, then Pat Tillman was wrong, too.

[mookie2001]

whottt you got owned yet again

[JoeChalupa]

"They"?... Don't lump everyone by using the term "they" please.

I for one know that not all conservative repulblicans are neocon, war mongers, Bush is God, blind followers because the majority of them are NOT.

I'm a Democrat and tend to be "liberal" on some issue yet "conservative" on others. I don't agree with everything that comes of the pie-holes of every freakin' democrat.

I don't cheer ANY death, be it American or Iraqi or any other nationality for when we do we are just as guilty as those who do.

[JoeChalupa]

To me, dan's article accomplishes this: if Pat Tillman is a symbol of patriotism, then you can't say that his opposition to the Iraq war was unpatriotic (that, or you have to say that Tillman was unpatriotic).

I agree with Tillman -- I have always thought and continue to believe that the war in Afghanistan is completely justified and should be prosecuted to completion.

I have also always thought and continue to think that the war in Iraq is completely without justification (particularly under the theories that have been sold to us) and, at the very least, was imprudent. I would agree that, now that we're there, we can't pull out of Iraq without suffering dire consequences, but I don't think we should have gone there in the first place.

If I'm wrong, then Pat Tillman was wrong, too.

I concur.