Is Tim Duncan A Top 5 All-Time Defender?

[Thomas82]

I believe he is for these (and many more) reasons:

1.) Nobody has been as much of an impact defender for as long as he has.
2.) He's been the anchor of the biggest defensive juggernaut since Bill Russell's Celtics.
3.) He was instrumental in the Spurs holding opponents to a field goal % of .4016, which is an NBA record.


Thoughts?

[will_spurs]

I'd say he's a Top 1 All-Time Defender, actually.

[apalisoc_9]

Always going to be underrated because of bowen

[steeledl]

I think so but you aren't really going to get unbiased opinions here......

[TheMulletMan3000]

Agree. And his adaptability is amazing. What he does with literally one working leg is unseen. It shows that you don't need athleticism to be good on D (long hands, brains and timing).

[BillMc]

I'd say he's a Top 1 All-Time Defender, actually.

This.

[TheGreatYacht]

Best ever

[Thomas82]

Always going to be underrated because of bowen

Good point.

[Drom John]

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

[lefty20]

he's either 1 or 2. depending on what u think of Bill Russell's nba era.

[Thomas82]

I think so but you aren't really going to get unbiased opinions here......

That's fine with me.

[BatManu20]

Yes. Sadly, he won't ever be recognized as such because he never won a DPOY Award.

[Thomas82]

Yes. Sadly, he won't ever be recognized as such because he never won a DPOY Award.

Which is criminal......he should have at least 4 of those trophies!!

[Drom John]

Spurs as Spurs, career Defensive Win Shares, top 5, then current Spurs

1) Tim Duncan
2) David Robinson
3) Manu Ginobili
4) Tony Parker
5) Bruce Bowen

10) Kawhi Leonard
14) Danny Green
20) Matt Bonner
30) Boris Diaw
51) Patty Mills
83) LaMarcus Aldridge

[keeferob25]

Yes, and beyond the eye test you have a world of objective data that supports the idea. How he isn't sporting a MINIMUM of 2 DPOY awards is sickening when so many overrated "great" defenders (Gasol, Camby, Ibaka, Jordan, etc) who were/are good at certain things but were never complete defenders are hyped FAR more than timmy EVER was. He should've either won it or shared it with B. Wallace in 2004, and outright won it in 2007 (Camby lol) and 2013 (Gasol...good but overrated as hell).

[Thomas82]

Yes, and beyond the eye test you have a world of objective data that supports the idea. How he isn't sporting a MINIMUM of 2 DPOY awards is sickening when so many overrated "great" defenders (Gasol, Camby, Ibaka, Jordan, etc) who were/are good at certain things but were never complete defenders are hyped FAR more than timmy EVER was. He should've either won it or shared it with B. Wallace in 2004, and outright won it in 2007 (Camby lol) and 2013 (Gasol...good but overrated as hell).

I couldn't have said it better.

[houston spurs fan]

Never flashy or thuggish enough like Ben Wallace in TD's prime but just as effective...

[Brazil]

he is an easy top 5 imo

in the mix, you have: russel (even though it's quite easy to look a great defender when you play an era full of short white dudes tbh), Hakeem, David, Pippen, Rodman, Wallace, Garnett.

only peak years add in it Lebron, Bruce, Dikembe, MJ but those guys did not do it for so long ... Kawhi is right there too

Payton is always cited in that list but it is more to get a PG down there than for defense value imho... quite overrated tbh

[J_Paco]

He was never the best individual defender or put up the best "defensive numbers," but Duncan is the greatest team defender in NBA history. The advanced statistics, team statistics and his career numbers bare that out. Like much of his career/legacy, he'll never get the credit he deserves but he is the greatest team defender in NBA history.

[apalisoc_9]

People are also going to look at kawhi who looks like hes on his way for a dpoy repeat and thats going to affect him negatively on defence too..

[Drom John]

Tim Duncan led the league in Defensive Win Shares five years:
1998, 1999, 2001, 2006, 2007.

Ben Wallace led in 2004, Paul George in 2013, and Andre Drummond in 2015.

[Drom John]

2004 Duncan was third behind Wallace and Garnett
2013 Duncan was fourth behind George, M.Gasol and Durant
2015 Leonard was second behind Drummond (Aldridge was 8th).

[SPURt]

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw
Wow! Number 2 to a guy that played against mildly athletic midgets with the exception of Wilt is pretty impressive.

[Brazil]

Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact tbh

[Spur|n|Austin]

he's either 1 or 2. depending on what u think of Bill Russell's nba era.

[BillMc]

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

Dominique? Richard Jefferson?

[Blake]

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

Any defensive list where Dominique Wilkins is ahead of Bruce loses a very large amount of credibility

[Blake]

Tim is a very underrated, outstanding defender but cmon on the top 5 all time thing. You gotta get at least one DPOY.

[r0drig0lac]

I think so but you aren't really going to get unbiased opinions here......

/thread

[Kawhitstorm]

Garnett, Ben Wallace, & Tim are the best defenders of their generation by a country mile. (Bowen was just a 1-on-1 defender & Artest had a short run)

Tim/Pippen are the best defenders to never win DPOY.

[Drom John]

Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact tbh

Then I'll play the eye test.
I saw Russell play most of his career.
I've seen Duncan, since his first game at Wake Forest. Duncan was wow! good the first time he dominated Eric Montrose.
Russell always looked better.

BTW, have you ever read "tbh" is a post and didn't immediately deduct honesty posts?
Me neither.

Nothing in your post deserved to be diminished by "tbh."

[Drom John]

Dominique? Richard Jefferson?

Long careers, weak as Spurs.
Dominique as a Hawk, and Jefferson as a Net were solid.

[Drom John]

Any defensive list where Dominique Wilkins is ahead of Bruce loses a very large amount of credibility

Anybody unaware of how unused and unimpressive Bowen was till his last year in Miami is probably a Spur homer who cannot distinguish rate stats from counting stats.
Bowen as a Spur was great. But Bruce's career was relatively short. Wilkins as a Spur, not so great.

As you remember watching the young Dominique in Atlanta, 'Nique was pretty impressive defensively. Moderately active, with hands in the right place. Can't think of a Spur, but a more interior Kevin Durant isn't far off. 57th all-time in steals, Bowen not in top #250. #182 all-time in blocks, Bowen not top #250.

I'll take Bowen's best years, but there's not many of them. There were many more pretty good Wilkins years.

[TDomination]

Duncans defense is definitely underrated due to him never winning a Defensive player of the year award.



Check out the 1:40 mark of the video below. One of my favorite defensive sequences that I can remember.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfyrPz66IEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfyrPz66IE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPfyrPz66IE)

[Brazil]

Then I'll play the eye test.
I saw Russell play most of his career.
I've seen Duncan, since his first game at Wake Forest. Duncan was wow! good the first time he dominated Eric Montrose.
Russell always looked better.

BTW, have you ever read "tbh" is a post and didn't immediately deduct honesty posts?
Me neither.

Nothing in your post deserved to be diminished by "tbh."

:lol holy shit you must be old as fuck

I don't make the argument either that Tim is not better than Russel... as I said Russel is quite overrated due to era he played... was just noticing that defensive win shares kinda suck... even though I have no issue with putting Duncan from 1 to 3/4

BTW When I see tbh I immediately deduct person is more honest tbh

[Kawhitstorm]

Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact tbh

Big Dummy, Win-Shares are cumulative.

Bowen played 24052 minutes & Nique played 38113 minutes so there is a difference of 14000 minutes which is more than half the total amount of minutes Bowen played in his ENTIRE career.

Essentially, Bowen would have had a DWS of over 50 if he played the same amount of minutes as Nique.

[Blake]

Anybody unaware of how unused and unimpressive Bowen was till his last year in Miami is probably a Spur homer who cannot distinguish rate stats from counting stats.
Bowen as a Spur was great. But Bruce's career was relatively short. Wilkins as a Spur, not so great.

As you remember watching the young Dominique in Atlanta, 'Nique was pretty impressive defensively. Moderately active, with hands in the right place. Can't think of a Spur, but a more interior Kevin Durant isn't far off. 57th all-time in steals, Bowen not in top #250. #182 all-time in blocks, Bowen not top #250.

I'll take Bowen's best years, but there's not many of them. There were many more pretty good Wilkins years.

Lol

[Horse]

Damn straight

[phxspurfan]

Homer thread is homer

[Kidd K]

Duncan is also #2 all time in career defensive rating.

[Arcadian]

People are also going to look at kawhi who looks like hes on his way for a dpoy repeat and thats going to affect him negatively on defence too..

Not really because he's way past his prime now that Kawhi is in his.

I don't believe the Bowen argument either. He was more of a fan favorite among Spurs fans and an enemy of a few star players, but otherwise most people are not going to remember him. Without Duncan, he was a nobody.

[Brazil]

Big Dummy, Win-Shares are cumulative.

Bowen played 24052 minutes & Nique played 38113 minutes so there is a difference of 14000 minutes which is more than half the total amount of minutes Bowen played in his ENTIRE career.

Essentially, Bowen would have had a DWS of over 50 if he played the same amount of minutes as Nique.

big dummy that's exactly my point... :rolleyes

[SASdynasty!]

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw
Tony Parker :hat

[Spurtacular]

NBA/ABA (which matches the NBA list till Artis Gilmore at #11) Career 93.92Defensive Win Shares

1) 133.64 Bill Russell
2) 105.72 Tim Duncan
3) 94.49 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4) 94.47 Hakeem Olajuwon
5) 93.92 Wilt Chamberlain

That fits my eye test.

10) David Robinson
11) Artis Gilmore
29) Moses Malone
39) Dennis Rodman
44) Caldwell Jones
57) Kevin Willis
74) Robert Horry
76) Manu Ginobili
81) Tony Parker
84) Kurt Thomas
109) Antonio McDyess
119) David West
140) Dominique Wilkins
149) Bruce Bowen late peak
150) Billy Paultz
159) Mychal Thompson
161) Doc Rivers
163) Tyrone Corbin
170) Richard Jefferson
175) George Johnson
183) Louie Dampier
187) Andre Miller
189) Alvin Robertson
190) Hedo Turkoglu
197) Theo Ratliff
215) Larry Kenon
227) LaMarcus Aldridge
229) George Gervin
235) Michael Finley
241) Paul Pressey

Honorable mention, on NBA only list:
248) Boris Diaw

Kareem was a sh**y defender (at least in certain match-ups); and he's listed 3rd overall.

[Agloco]

:lol Who are the two faggots that voted no?

[Obstructed_View]

Characterizing him as a top 5 all time defender is kind of an insult. He's easily top two, and there's an easy case to be made that he's GOAT by a wide margin.

When he retires, the NBA should name the DPOY trophy after him.

[Galileo]

When he retires, the NBA should name the DPOY trophy after him.

That is a brilliant idea!

[Thomas82]

Characterizing him as a top 5 all time defender is kind of an insult. He's easily top two, and there's an easy case to be made that he's GOAT by a wide margin.

When he retires, the NBA should name the DPOY trophy after him.

I believe that too, I was just being cautious.

[Thomas82]

:lol Who are the two faggots that voted no?

I see a 3rd person voted no.

[Kawhitstorm]

big dummy that's exactly my point... :rolleyes
I guess your bitch ass doesn't know elementary math such as long division.:wakeup

[TD 21]

He was never the best individual defender or put up the best "defensive numbers," but Duncan is the greatest team defender in NBA history. The advanced statistics, team statistics and his career numbers bare that out. Like much of his career/legacy, he'll never get the credit he deserves but he is the greatest team defender in NBA history.

Agreed.

I've always said, the biggest award travesty in major North American professional sports, is Duncan not winning DPOY. He should have a bunch and the only reasons he doesn't, is 1) He doesn't look the part of a great defender and 2) The majority of the media/casual fans, know very little about defense and up until recently, the weren't nearly as many metrics for it as offense (even now, it still lags behind).

[cjw]

Kareem was a sh**y defender (at least in certain match-ups); and he's listed 3rd overall.

He also played in the most minutes in history (2,500 more than Malone, 7,000+ more than Garnett, Kidd, and so on). A more accurate look would be DWS/48 beginning in 1951-52 (when minutes played began to be tracked) for all players with at least 20 DWS.

Kawhi is at 18.7 DWS so didn't make my arbitrary cut-off. He'd rank #10 over Ewing if included in the rankings (didn't check anyone else under 20 DWS):

Look at who the top two players in the modern era are:





Player
MP
DWS
DWS/48 (x100)


1

Bill Russell*
40726
133.6
15.75


2

George Mikan*
8350
22.2
12.76


3

David Robinson*
34271
80.1
11.22


4

Tim Duncan
47042
105.8
10.80


5

Ben Wallace
32085
70.6
10.56


6

Tom Heinsohn*
19254
41.7
10.40


7

K.C. Jones*
17501
37.9
10.39


8

Hakeem Olajuwon*
44222
94.5
10.26


9

Arvydas Sabonis*
11375
23.3
9.83


10

Patrick Ewing*
40594
81.4
9.63


11

Tom Boerwinkle
14387
28.8
9.61


12

Dwight Howard
30581
60.3
9.46


13

Wilt Chamberlain*
47859
93.9
9.42


14

Marcus Camby
28684
54.9
9.19


15

Mark Eaton
25169
48.0
9.15


16

Paul George
11453
21.7
9.09


17

Tom Sanders*
22164
41.9
9.07


18

Dennis Rodman*
28839
54.5
9.07


19

Joakim Noah
16848
31.8
9.06


20

Dave Cowens*
29565
55.8
9.06


21

Dikembe Mutombo*
36791
68.5
8.94


22

Clifford Ray
19940
37.1
8.93


23

Bill Walton*
13250
24.6
8.91


24

Yao Ming
15818
29.3
8.89


25

Alonzo Mourning*
25975
48.0
8.87


26

Mel Daniels*
22466
41.2
8.80


27

Kevin Garnett
50418
91.5
8.71


28

Sam Jones*
24285
43.7
8.64


29

Manu Ginobili
24036
43.0
8.59


30

Wes Unseld*
35832
64.1
8.59


31

Shawn Kemp
29293
52.2
8.55


32

Tree Rollins
24028
42.1
8.41


33

George Johnson
18102
31.7
8.41


34

Nate Thurmond*
35881
62.2
8.32


35

Larry Bird*
34443
59.0
8.22


36

Len Elmore
12389
21.0
8.14


37

Chris Dudley
16321
27.6
8.12


38

Tony Allen
15496
26.2
8.12


39

Jermaine O'Neal
27364
46.1
8.09


40

Karl Malone*
54852
92.4
8.09


41

Bobby Jones
25728
43.2
8.06


42

Taj Gibson
12420
20.8
8.04


43

Elvin Hayes*
50000
83.7
8.04


44

DeAndre Jordan
15569
25.9
7.99


45

Frank Ramsey*
15330
25.4
7.95


46

Malik Rose
13404
22.2
7.95


47

Harvey Catchings
13182
21.8
7.94


48

Rich Kelley
17711
29.2
7.91


49

Alton Lister
18965
31.2
7.90


50

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*
57446
94.5
7.90


51

Jack Sikma
36943
60.7
7.89


52

Scottie Pippen*
41069
67.3
7.87


53

George McGinnis
28179
46.1
7.85


54

Julius Erving*
45227
73.8
7.83


55

Darryl Dawkins
17235
28.0
7.80


56

Dolph Schayes*
29800
48.3
7.78


57

Bob Cousy*
30165
48.7
7.75


58

Anderson Varejao
14858
23.9
7.72


59

Curtis Perry
13656
21.9
7.70


60

Alvan Adams
27203
43.6
7.69


61

Artis Gilmore*
47134
75.5
7.69


62

Rick Mahorn
25779
41.2
7.67


63

Robert Parish*
45704
73.0
7.67


64

Kendrick Perkins
16845
26.9
7.67


65

John Havlicek*
46471
74.1
7.65


66

Robert Horry
27069
43.1
7.64


67

Charlie Ward
14080
22.4
7.64


68

Shaquille O'Neal
41918
66.4
7.60


69

Shawn Bradley
19531
30.8
7.57


70

Rasheed Wallace
36243
57.1
7.56


71

Andrew Bogut
18662
29.4
7.56


72

Charles Oakley
40280
63.3
7.54


73

Greg Ostertag
14753
23.1
7.52


74

Rajon Rondo
20827
32.6
7.51


75

Gar Heard
19571
30.6
7.50


76

Vlade Divac
33838
52.9
7.50


77

Michael Jordan*
41011
64.1
7.50


78

Gerald Govan
22925
35.8
7.50


79

Kenyon Martin
23134
36.1
7.49


80

Chris Webber
30847
47.8
7.44


81

Jeff Foster
15750
24.3
7.41


82

Roy Hibbert
15367
23.7
7.40


83

Kurt Thomas
27160
41.8
7.39


84

Samuel Dalembert
21646
33.3
7.38


85

Jerome Kersey
28115
43.2
7.38


86

Larry Siegfried
13632
20.9
7.36


87

Shawn Marion
40097
61.3
7.34


88

Dave DeBusschere*
31202
47.7
7.34


89

Serge Ibaka
14723
22.5
7.34


90

Marvin Webster
13364
20.4
7.33


91

LeBron James
37991
57.9
7.32


92

Nate McMillan
20462
31.1
7.30


93

Paul Millsap
21784
32.9
7.25


94

Mel Counts
13723
20.7
7.24


95

Tyson Chandler
27726
41.7
7.22


96

Dan Roundfield
24210
36.4
7.22


97

Jason Kidd
50111
75.1
7.19


98

Marcin Gortat
14832
22.2
7.18


99

Kurt Rambis
16299
24.3
7.16


100

Marc Gasol
19190
28.5
7.13

[Spurtacular]

He also played in the most minutes in history (2,500 more than Malone, 7,000+ more than Garnett, Kidd, and so on). A more accurate look would be DWS/48 beginning in 1951-52 (when minutes played began to be tracked) for all players with at least 20 DWS.

Kawhi is at 18.7 DWS so didn't make my arbitrary cut-off. He'd rank #10 over Ewing if included in the rankings (didn't check anyone else under 20 DWS):

Look at who the top two players in the modern era are:





Player
MP
DWS
DWS/48 (x100)


1

Bill Russell*
40726
133.6
15.75


2

George Mikan*
8350
22.2
12.76


3

David Robinson*
34271
80.1
11.22


4

Tim Duncan
47042
105.8
10.80


5

Ben Wallace
32085
70.6
10.56


6

Tom Heinsohn*
19254
41.7
10.40


7

K.C. Jones*
17501
37.9
10.39


8

Hakeem Olajuwon*
44222
94.5
10.26


9

Arvydas Sabonis*
11375
23.3
9.83


10

Patrick Ewing*
40594
81.4
9.63


11

Tom Boerwinkle
14387
28.8
9.61


12

Dwight Howard
30581
60.3
9.46


13

Wilt Chamberlain*
47859
93.9
9.42


14

Marcus Camby
28684
54.9
9.19


15

Mark Eaton
25169
48.0
9.15


16

Paul George
11453
21.7
9.09


17

Tom Sanders*
22164
41.9
9.07


18

Dennis Rodman*
28839
54.5
9.07


19

Joakim Noah
16848
31.8
9.06


20

Dave Cowens*
29565
55.8
9.06


21

Dikembe Mutombo*
36791
68.5
8.94


22

Clifford Ray
19940
37.1
8.93


23

Bill Walton*
13250
24.6
8.91


24

Yao Ming
15818
29.3
8.89


25

Alonzo Mourning*
25975
48.0
8.87


26

Mel Daniels*
22466
41.2
8.80


27

Kevin Garnett
50418
91.5
8.71


28

Sam Jones*
24285
43.7
8.64


29

Manu Ginobili
24036
43.0
8.59


30

Wes Unseld*
35832
64.1
8.59


31

Shawn Kemp
29293
52.2
8.55


32

Tree Rollins
24028
42.1
8.41


33

George Johnson
18102
31.7
8.41


34

Nate Thurmond*
35881
62.2
8.32


35

Larry Bird*
34443
59.0
8.22


36

Len Elmore
12389
21.0
8.14


37

Chris Dudley
16321
27.6
8.12


38

Tony Allen
15496
26.2
8.12


39

Jermaine O'Neal
27364
46.1
8.09


40

Karl Malone*
54852
92.4
8.09


41

Bobby Jones
25728
43.2
8.06


42

Taj Gibson
12420
20.8
8.04


43

Elvin Hayes*
50000
83.7
8.04


44

DeAndre Jordan
15569
25.9
7.99


45

Frank Ramsey*
15330
25.4
7.95


46

Malik Rose
13404
22.2
7.95


47

Harvey Catchings
13182
21.8
7.94


48

Rich Kelley
17711
29.2
7.91


49

Alton Lister
18965
31.2
7.90


50

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*
57446
94.5
7.90


51

Jack Sikma
36943
60.7
7.89


52

Scottie Pippen*
41069
67.3
7.87


53

George McGinnis
28179
46.1
7.85


54

Julius Erving*
45227
73.8
7.83


55

Darryl Dawkins
17235
28.0
7.80


56

Dolph Schayes*
29800
48.3
7.78


57

Bob Cousy*
30165
48.7
7.75


58

Anderson Varejao
14858
23.9
7.72


59

Curtis Perry
13656
21.9
7.70


60

Alvan Adams
27203
43.6
7.69


61

Artis Gilmore*
47134
75.5
7.69


62

Rick Mahorn
25779
41.2
7.67


63

Robert Parish*
45704
73.0
7.67


64

Kendrick Perkins
16845
26.9
7.67


65

John Havlicek*
46471
74.1
7.65


66

Robert Horry
27069
43.1
7.64


67

Charlie Ward
14080
22.4
7.64


68

Shaquille O'Neal
41918
66.4
7.60


69

Shawn Bradley
19531
30.8
7.57


70

Rasheed Wallace
36243
57.1
7.56


71

Andrew Bogut
18662
29.4
7.56


72

Charles Oakley
40280
63.3
7.54


73

Greg Ostertag
14753
23.1
7.52


74

Rajon Rondo
20827
32.6
7.51


75

Gar Heard
19571
30.6
7.50


76

Vlade Divac
33838
52.9
7.50


77

Michael Jordan*
41011
64.1
7.50


78

Gerald Govan
22925
35.8
7.50


79

Kenyon Martin
23134
36.1
7.49


80

Chris Webber
30847
47.8
7.44


81

Jeff Foster
15750
24.3
7.41


82

Roy Hibbert
15367
23.7
7.40


83

Kurt Thomas
27160
41.8
7.39


84

Samuel Dalembert
21646
33.3
7.38


85

Jerome Kersey
28115
43.2
7.38


86

Larry Siegfried
13632
20.9
7.36


87

Shawn Marion
40097
61.3
7.34


88

Dave DeBusschere*
31202
47.7
7.34


89

Serge Ibaka
14723
22.5
7.34


90

Marvin Webster
13364
20.4
7.33


91

LeBron James
37991
57.9
7.32


92

Nate McMillan
20462
31.1
7.30


93

Paul Millsap
21784
32.9
7.25


94

Mel Counts
13723
20.7
7.24


95

Tyson Chandler
27726
41.7
7.22


96

Dan Roundfield
24210
36.4
7.22


97

Jason Kidd
50111
75.1
7.19


98

Marcin Gortat
14832
22.2
7.18


99

Kurt Rambis
16299
24.3
7.16


100

Marc Gasol
19190
28.5
7.13



Yea, that list is a better barometer. Good work.

[Brazil]

I guess your bitch ass doesn't know elementary math such as long division.:wakeup

Are you trying to be edgy or something ? What elementary math ? I'm saying defensive win shares as used in this thread is not a good metrics to evaluate individual defender otherwise Parker would never make top 80.. What's your point faggot ?

[Kawhitstorm]

Are you trying to be edgy or something ? What elementary math ? I'm saying defensive win shares as used in this thread is not a good metrics to evaluate individual defender otherwise Parker would never make top 80.. What's your point faggot ?

Divide his WS by 48 minutes & you will get the answer aka WS/48; someone is trying hard to save face after making a FALSE statement::sleep

[Brazil]

Divide his WS by 48 minutes & you will get the answer aka WS/48; someone is trying hard to save face after making a FALSE statement::sleep

you have the reading comprehension of an hot oyster tbh... in this thread, a poster put a list based on cumulative DWS, that was this cumulative DWS I was referring to... not sure what is hard to understand...

[Cowboys_Wear_Spurs]

Yes. #1 PF defender of all time. If you were making an all NBA defense historic team, Tim would be at PF. Before long Kawhi will be the other forward on that list.

[DMC]

If you consider his entire body of work, not his his peak vs other players' peaks, you'd have a hard time justifying leaving Tim out of that conversation.

[Kawhitstorm]

you have the reading comprehension of an hot oyster tbh... in this thread, a poster put a list based on cumulative DWS, that was this cumulative DWS I was referring to... not sure what is hard to understand...

Idiot, just b/c they listed DWS it doesn't mean you can't covert it to DWS/48 to make a VALID point. It's like claiming Jordan's cumulative point totals can't be used to argue he was a better scorer than Karl Malone b/c it isn't DIRECTLY related to PPG.:lol

[dbreiden83080]

Easily..

[Brazil]

Idiot, just b/c they listed DWS it doesn't mean you can't covert it to DWS/48 to make a VALID point. It's like claiming Jordan's cumulative point totals can't be used to argue he was a better scorer than Karl Malone b/c it isn't DIRECTLY related to PPG.:lol

I'm going slow but just because you seem to be a charming human being...

1. Somebody posted a list of cumulative DWS
2. I said it is not a good metric
3. You start calling me out for saying basically the same thing than me

4. from there you deflect calling me out for not writting stuff like you know mate your list blabla defensive ws per 48 is better blabla but dws per 48 depends also on team you play with then I say you know DBPM is a good complement but then all metrics are flawed blablabla so you could use also dat new interesting stuff about opponent FG% blabla then blabla

DWS/48 is more valid than cumulative but it is not a flawless metric...

anything else ?

[Kawhitstorm]

I'm going slow but just because you seem to be a charming human being...

1. Somebody posted a list of cumulative DWS
2. I said it is not a good metric
3. You start calling me out for saying basically the same thing than me

4. from there you deflect calling me out for not writting stuff like you know mate your list blabla defensive ws per 48 is better blabla but dws per 48 depends also on team you play with then I say you know DBPM is a good complement but then all metrics are flawed blablabla so you could use also dat new interesting stuff about opponent FG% blabla then blabla

DWS/48 is more valid than cumulative but it is not a flawless metric...

anything else ?

Bruh, you FAILED to acknowledge DWS/48 existed & made a blanket statement: "Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact".

It's too late to save face::sleep

[Brazil]

Bruh, you FAILED to acknowledge DWS/48 existed & made a blanket statement: "Defensive win shares is not a great metrics to judge individual defensive impact".

It's too late to save face::sleep

bruh I was referring to a freaking list posted just before... :lol I failed to acknowledge... I can say DWS is not a good metric but at the same time I would not know that DWS/48 exist or DBPM exist... smh

bruh DWS/48 is also flawed

[Brazil]

BTW I continue on the notion that it is not a great metrics but not totally useless tbh...